Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to the Surely You Can't Be
Serious Podcast, discussing and debating the iconic and the forgotten
of eighties and nineties pop.
Speaker 2: Culture with your co hosts James D.
Speaker 1: Graves and Jason Coliban.
Speaker 3: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Surely
you Can't Be Serious Podcast. Please give it a ground
of applause for my co host and friend of all ages,
mister Jason Colvin.
Speaker 2: How's our VideA and good to see it.
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2: We're so glad to this.
Speaker 3: We are here today to talk again about Gladiator and Braveheart.
Brave Heart. Yes, I'm not to start pointing at you.
Speaker 2: Wait, I've got a question for you before we go
any further. Okay, yes, do you like movies about gladiators?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: Very good. Okay, so we left off we left off
last time. We were talking about the composers. As far
as composers go. We they're both great.
Speaker 2: They're both great.
Speaker 3: They're both great. But my but my film score is
better than your film score.
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I really don't think it really is. Okay,
if you like bagpipes, then you can stick with.
Speaker 3: The I do like bagpipes.
Speaker 2: Crazy.
Speaker 3: Anybody watching Braveheart who doesn't like bagpipes, it's probably not
gonna like that.
Speaker 2: I like James Horner.
Speaker 3: I'm not a big bagpipes guy. Well, then I can
see what you don't like the movie, because that's like
the first thing that happens is the bagpipes start playing.
I mean, I'm ready to kind of dive in.
Speaker 2: I've got I've got a few things that I want
to talk about as far as interesting tidbits before we
dive into sort of final opinion.
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I mean, let's let's do it. Let's just
kind of do a film comparison. I think, you know,
probably what we should do is make an attempt to
say something nice about the film that we don't like.
Speaker 2: Right, Let's do that.
Speaker 3: Okay. So, so my nice thing to say is this
film was pretty.
Speaker 2: It was pretty.
Speaker 3: Your Gladiator movie was pretty. That's the best you got, Okay. So,
I mean, honestly, I like Marcus Aurelius by Richard Harris.
I like Comedists by Joaquin Phoenix. I think they both
did a fantastic job. I like Lucilla Connie Nielsen did
a fantastic job with that part those supporting cast members
killed it.
Speaker 2: That's similar to what I'm going to say. Okay, I
mean I really enjoyed the actress who plays Muran. They
plucked her right out of college.
Speaker 3: Basically, Catherine mccarmack had just finished up with drama school,
had done one really low budget film, and then was
cast in this.
Speaker 2: She does a lot with her eyes and sort of
she has that quiet grace. I can see why Mel
Gibson sort of we talked about how he fell in
love with her a little bit, right, So she does
a great job.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: I think the actor who played Steven, the guy that
you really like, he does a great job steal scenes,
has great lines, is really funny. And then the guy
who played Robert, the Bruce, I thought did a great
job of being conflicted, right, I want to believe.
Speaker 3: I want to believe, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: You can tell it's just tearing him up inside. I
think he did a fantastic all men betray I think
for me the movie is compelling, right, the story is compelling.
I'm interested in how the Scotts won their freedom. William
Wallace is an interesting character. It's a great storage of
courage and leadership.
Speaker 3: You know, and people probably can't tell from our voices
which one of us are which like, if they've seen
our pictures out there, you are. You are the one
that looks like you have more of the Scottish and
Irish heritage, that's right than I do. I look, I
look more Southern European and you look more Northern European.
But you're You're finding favored with the Italian movie and
I'm with the UK movie.
Speaker 2: It's interesting. We did talk about that the other day.
I definitely, I mean, I've read hair. If you haven't
seen me, I look Irish Ish, you know, yeah, And
you definitely look more Mediterranean Ish European from the clan
of Maculvn. But uh yeah. So I think both films
are skillfully made for me. The stories are compelling. I
think they're filmed well. I think they look good on
the screen.
Speaker 3: I do have some problems with let's stop pretending to
like movies that we don't really like and let's just
get on. Let's get on with. Your movie is pretty good,
Your movie is okay, okay.
Speaker 2: Ish, Okay, I'm gonna I really, I really feel like
you're way off based on this.
Speaker 3: I feel like you're completely aspect. I mean really, when
you told me that, I was just like, I cannot
I cannot fathom that you like Gladiator better than Braveheart.
It just doesn't. It doesn't. I don't even understand it. Okay,
So let's let's do this. Let's just kind of bounce
back and forth. Let's talk about let's just talk about first,
let's talk about the main character. Okay, we'll talk about
William Wallace. Then we can talk about Maximus. Okay, Maximus.
The rest of us could Covinamus.
Speaker 2: Maximus, Decimus, Meridius, yes, whatever, father to a murrid son.
Speaker 3: Okay. So I don't want to I don't want to
get into the personal lives of the actors. I mean
we can, we can pokeholes all of that all day long,
and can do that with any actors. But if you
if we look at actually the performance here, I mean
I believed everything that was happening with William Wallace. I mean,
he his emotions, his humor, all of those things came
through so clearly, and he was a character that I
identified with. And then I was just like, yeah, I
want to I want to be like that. I want
to believe, right, Yeah, I mean that's that I felt
the same way. I felt like Robert the Bruce. I
felt like I was less of a man than this
guy was and and wanted to be more like him.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so I mean this is kind of
the crux of my position. But I mean, Gladier is
the story of Maximus. You have to like this guy
for it to work right. And for me, He's loved
by the Emperor Marcus Relius. Yeah, He's loved by his
wife and family. He's loved and respected by his men.
He is a servant leader, a loving father, a good husband.
He is good at his job. He is the man
that I aspire to be loved appreciated.
Speaker 3: I'm over here shaking my head.
Speaker 2: Literally, You're the only male I've ever met who doesn't
love this character.
Speaker 3: No, because to me, he's Poudy through the whole movie.
Like this is all just I'm frustrated that I got
asked to do something that I didn't want to do.
You know, for me, I got asked to lead Rome,
and then for me, I'm.
Speaker 2: Because he wants to go home to his family.
Speaker 3: Right, But but come on, man, I mean, and then
once even once everything goes bad, now I refuse to fight,
I throw this. He just seems powdy the whole movie.
When I found out later on that Russell Crowe was
getting really frustrated as they tried to make this movie
with no script, and then he would walk off the
sets the set, I was like, Yeah, that's the vibe
I got from the character, like he's just irritated and
unky all the time. I know, are way off base
on this, so but but are you going to tell
me that you didn't identify with William Walls?
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's my problem with William Walls. It's not
that I didn't identify with him. I am a Mel
Gibson fan. The roots of my fanhood are based in
lethal weapon.
Speaker 3: Okay, so me too.
Speaker 2: I mean I've seen a lot of I mean, I'm
not gonna pretend like I haven't seen a lot of
his movies. But he is pretty much Martin Riggs for
me all the time. Okay, So when he goes to fight,
when you know, when he's circling the English and he's
going to go pick a fight, right right, I really
expected him to do a three stooges, pokem in the eye,
slap him in the face.
Speaker 3: And but I mean he does. I mean, as far
as ancient Scotland goes, he does that kind of you know,
let's flash him our front and then moon him on
our back, and.
Speaker 2: I want to believe I want to like him. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And when I when I went to go see Gladiater,
I was just like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna buy
into this movie.
Speaker 2: But it was just huh you literally, you're the only
man I know that doesn't love this movie.
Speaker 3: I've never met somebody who thought that Gladiator was better
than Brave Art that.
Speaker 2: I okay, Well, well, I mean we're gonna find out hopefully, Yeah,
if you are out there, I mean, because we are
definitely on opposite side of this deal. Yah, Who's right
and who's wrong?
Speaker 3: So that's main character. Let's move on, Let's go to villain, right, Okay, Okay,
so I've already said I loved Waquin Phoenix's performance in
this right. There are times that I was just like, why,
he seems like he's kind of doing a high school Shakespeare,
But those moments were very brief, and overall the performance
was really really solid. I think we mentioned it last time.
He was incredibly nervous about this performance, but ended up
getting the nod for the Best Supporting Actor. I didn't win,
but we got the nomination. But he was he was
having to be imbibed by Russell Crowe and Richard Harris
to get him over the anxiety.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was still a young guy.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, he's really yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean I really don't know what his age was
when he filmed this.
Speaker 3: I think is in the neighborhood at twenty six.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, and he's out there with Richard Harris.
Yeah right, Oliver Reed, yep, Russell Crowe, who's the next Superstar.
I really like the performance by him. I'm not necessarily
a walking Phoenix fand but he does a good job.
And his character is everything that Maximus is not. He
wants power, he wants respect, he wants love, and he
can't get it and he can't get it right.
Speaker 3: And I also say this about him, you know, as
far as villains go, most of time, most of the time,
I would prefer to kind of understand where my villain
is coming from. Like, like I like the idea of seeing, oh, hey,
you know, he had a bad he had this bad
experience and that's what's made him the man that he
is right.
Speaker 2: Now, just a bad guy.
Speaker 3: Well with with him, he has this anticipation that suddenly
gets soured. Are you ready to do your duty for room? Yes, father,
you will not be emperor like really he was caught
off guard, and so I can see how he's frustrated
at the event and kind of turned the way that
he does. He even appreciates his own shortcoming.
Speaker 2: He wrote to me once.
Speaker 5: Listing the forty virtues wisdom, justice, fortitude, telperence. As I
read the list, I knew I had none of them.
Speaker 3: Father, virtues, you wanted these things, but you didn't appreciate
these other things that I do have. And I didn't
have those things, And so he just felt unloved, you know.
And as a dad, you always fear that you're not
giving your kid the right up whatever the right upbringing is,
whether it's love or discipline or whatever. Right. So I
actually enjoyed that you could see that from the villain
and Gladiator.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, so the villain from Brave Heart, Yeah, the
King Edward Lunchanks, yes, right, yeah, good bad guy Darth
vade or Esque. I mean he's yeah, he's smart, he's
in charge. Yes, he is strategic and sort of outthinks
him down down the line a couple of times, right,
And I think he's doing bad things, but he's he's
doing his job as a king and takes his job
very serious, which for me, a good bad guy is
somebody who believes what they're doing is right right. It's
just in contrast to what you believe right right.
Speaker 3: Well, he wasn't conniving in any way. He's evil through
and through, Like there's you're not getting a oh, I
can see how maybe he came to this path. No,
you just get bad guy, bad guy, bad get bad
guy evil, evil. But he sells it like somehow, and
I think it goes to the chops of the actor
in the age of the actor. He's selling something because
he's a good actor. I mean, he's he is pure bad.
But you're just still you're still like you believe it.
Speaker 4: I just patched them before, I said to your wife,
so little rules succeeded, thank you. And while this upstart
wits my arrival, my forces would have arrived.
Speaker 2: Well, and you have to be ruthless to protect your kingdom.
I understand all that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he does a good job, Yeah, fantastic job.
Speaker 2: I didn't like that Wallace and him were never face
to face. Okay, good guy, bad guy Mono Imano. You
at least get that at the end of Gladiator.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and see honestly that that doesn't bother me as much.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 3: That was Another big problem with me for this movie
is that Maximus's story seemed to only be about I'm
gonna get revenge on commtists. There was no other motivation
for what he was doing. It's just I'm gonna go
get revenge on commerce.
Speaker 2: Okay, well that's interesting because that's exactly my problem with
Brave Heart. Mel Gibson. His wife gets killed, yes by
Joe Deputy. Yeah, the Garrison right, who promptly exacts revenge
on quickly and severely. Yes, And then all of a
sudden he's like leading the freedom fighters.
Speaker 3: There's more to the story. It's a bigger cause.
Speaker 2: I mean kind of, but not really. He wasn't really
interested in that initially. He wasn't Oh my gosh. Now,
all he wanted to do is raise a family and
live in peace.
Speaker 3: Okay, So let's talk about the beginning of the movie
real quick. Okay. He's a little kid, his father and
brother narrowly escape murder, from Longshanks because they go to
go to peace talks and they're late to the meeting, right, right,
what happens to all of those other guys. They were
there to talk about peace talks with England and the
freedom of Scotland. Right from the beginning of the movie.
That's what's going on, and that's what's is the inspiration
for him as a child.
Speaker 2: Yes, and he wants to go fight, fight, he wants
to go fight. When he comes back home, yep, they
invite him to go to the meeting, he's like, no, thanks,
not interested.
Speaker 3: Right, because he's been educated. He is changed from the
juggernaut let's just drive this kamikaze into war, to a
man who's grown to appreciate using his wits before he
uses his sword. And so he has he has an education.
I mean, that's what I love about it is you've
got you've got an educated guy here. You're in the
midst of old Scotland where you live in rock mud huts,
and right, not for me, right, I mean, it's just
but you have a guy who speaks Latin and French
and who understands the mechanics of war because he's been
traveling for the last twenty years with his uncle Argyle
and learning all of these things, and his decision after
all of that is it is better to have a quiet,
simple life than to go into these exploits. And it's
only once he's forced into the situation that.
Speaker 2: He understand I understand. I like the simple revenge story
of Gladiator. It's his soul pursuit. Right now. He does
have the side deal, his duty to give run back
to the people. That's not even it doesn't even come
up it does.
Speaker 3: I mean, like there's one scene or is he at
the top of the stairs He's like, this is.
Speaker 2: What I want.
Speaker 3: I'm like, dude, you can't sell that three quarters into
the movie now.
Speaker 2: His no, his, I mean that's a side thing. He
wants to kill convenists. Yeah, that's his thing. Yes, I'm
here to kill commodists. Yes, And how do I do that.
I got to be the best gladder in the world
so I can stand right next to him.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a compelling story. Yeah, and that's what I appreciated
about Gladder Brave.
Speaker 3: Heck gets a little convoluted on it's a more interesting story.
Speaker 2: Well, his wife and then and then he sleeps with
the Queen of France.
Speaker 3: Okay, so just satisfying, but I'm confusing. I kind of
questioned the decision to have him sleep with her and
watching with my ten year old, he was like, what
is he doing? Like he was.
Speaker 2: Outraged, But did you say, look at her? Do you
see her?
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm teaching my child to be a pig.
Speaker 2: That's Sophie Marceau Son.
Speaker 3: Okay, so, but I mean this is this is something
that starts in a twelve eighty, so he comes back
about thirteen hundred, and this is over in thirteen fourteen.
This is fourteen years. I mean, yes, he loved his
original bride, but I mean where he's still a human man,
you know, Okay, and she's still a human woman who
has a man who's not.
Speaker 2: That part of the story was satisfying because you know,
he gets a pregnant Yeah, and that's sticking it to
the king.
Speaker 3: You know, he's into the end and that's really the
I mean, I get it.
Speaker 2: I did. I didn't like, clearly Maximus, his son and
wife were murdered unjustly. Yeah, later on he does share
a kiss with Lucilla, his former lover.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, but.
Speaker 2: Really Scott was very careful not to make that too sexual.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ka didn't. He didn't want it to be.
Speaker 2: I stay on point, right, You are seeking revenge for
your wife and child.
Speaker 3: If only JJ Abrams had made that decision with the
most recent Star Wars spoiler alert, spoiler alert, we've given
you no spoiler alerts, but we think you're smart enough
to have anticipated that movies that are going to be
this old, we're gonna spoil when we're talking about but
at this moment, about to talk about a movie that's
still out in theaters. So if you have not seen
the Rise of Skywalker, turn the volume down and wait
for a minute or so and turn the volume back
up top. Yeah right, so just real quick, Rise of Skywalker.
The kiss should never have happened. I just have to
say that right now. The kiss at the end should
never have happened. It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: Of the hour before and after. The kiss shouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3: To agreed. I thought you liked the movie more than
I did, But I did.
Speaker 2: That's only because I hated Last Jedi. Okay, we actually
Star Wars fans, Yeah, before we get all the hate mail.
Speaker 3: On that, Yeah no, no, no, no, I mean, obviously we're
Star Wars fans, or we wouldn't be so passionate about
that's right, the messing of it up. And if you
loved it, you loved it. There are a lot of
people that I admire out there who just said I
loved it, I loved all the action, and I didn't.
But that's okay. We have difference of opinion. And I
enjoyed debating on the qualities of movies obviously.
Speaker 2: Right, because we love movies.
Speaker 3: Right. So anyway, back to our movie, Let's talk a
little bit just about the setup, just the introduction and
how things go on each of these because that I
think is a big problem for me with Gladiator. All right,
so I'm going to talk about I'm just going to
do a quick bullet point. Here's the setup for.
Speaker 2: Okay, now wait a second, Yeah, what for those who
don't know you are a lawyer, your lawyer, You're about
to give me some of your lawyer juju right here.
I'm just a Joe blow movie guy.
Speaker 3: Listen, I am not presenting evidence. Okay, I have got
my wife. I shared this with you. My wife when
we're having an argument and all of a sudden, she
feels like she doesn't know how to respond to me.
She's like, you're just using those lawyer tricks on me.
And I'm like, if by tricks you mean logic and reason, yes,
but I had those before I ever went to law school.
But let's just let I'm really we're talking about opinions here,
but I'm gonna I'm gonna try to give you why
I feel the way that I feel. Okay, good, Okay.
So the beginning of Braveheart, you've got that scene that
I talked about where the Scottish nobles are all murdered
and he walks in and is face to face with
these bodies. Then you have you know, his father and
his brother are gonna go pick a fight, just like
he does later on in the movie, and it's not
about winning, it's about letting them know that they're there, right,
And you can see this important aspect in his upbringing
of I know, I know you can fight.
Speaker 2: But it's on what that make us men?
Speaker 3: Yes, So that's that's a huge deal to me, and
then that impacts how he feels about things later on.
To have those inspirational characters. It's obviously a good dad.
And then just before he leaves, he gets the thistle
by Murraan. It's setting up that love story early. It's
his good education from Uncle Argyle. We see the marriage
of Prince Edward and Isabella, so we've got the setup
of why she is longing for love. Later on in
the movie as well, then we get our villain who
who establishes when the when the princess walks in when
the prince should have walked in, we get that kind
of oh, you're gonna you're going to rule. Then let's
see if you can handle what I'm about to say.
We're going to reinstate the prema noctra doctor. And so
William Wallace, after his twenty years of education, comes back.
He knows Latin, he knows French, and he's obviously an
educated man, but he just wants to be a dirt farmer.
Is a mud farmer?
Speaker 2: Yeah kind of like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, And I'm going to come back to that
a little bit when we talk about Gladiator and then
he courts Mured and you get this beautiful love story.
You get the setup, and it's great. You have this
escape in the rain and it's and they're they're totally
jabbing at each other like am I supposed to be
impressed and he then he says something in French to
her and she's like, you know, stand on your head
and he's like, ooh, my kilt might fly out. But
that's the funny stuff. It's a funny porting. They're really
in love, and you get that story. And then Muran
gets murdered and then he comes back into the village.
You know, he's he had thought that she was safe
and was going to the place for them to meet,
but it doesn't happen. And then you see him after
her murder. You see him riding back into the village.
And both my son and my wife were like, does
he know what's happened? And I was like yes, and
my wife's like, well you don't. There's no way you
can know from what's as I understand that this movie's
already three hours long, you just have to get it,
and you're about to get it. And you see him
with cold steel eyes come in there and act revenge.
But that seems really cool. For an intelligent man. He
knows that revenge isn't going to be the end of it.
I understand there will be there will be a reckoning,
and so he has to he has.
Speaker 2: To not going to overlook what I'm about to do.
Speaker 3: Right, So that is the that's the setup for my movie,
and I think the best setup that we've got. Now,
I want you to tell me what you didn't like
about that setup.
Speaker 2: Okay, the romance that it works, Yeah, but they only
spend about five minutes together before he's ready to go
kill everybody.
Speaker 3: I mean, I understand the anger's she's all he ever
thought about.
Speaker 2: You know, and she's beautiful and I and it works
for me. That romance works for me. But I mean,
one minute, hey, we're getting married in secret, you know,
and again he's supposed to be in his early twenties.
The next minute, let's go, We're going to take down England.
Speaker 3: It's the next logical step.
Speaker 2: It just seemed like the romance was a little it rushed.
The actress did such a good job, and I did
buy it. I did buy the love story, right, But
he exacted his revenge. He did it. I mean, he
he slipped the dude's throat, right.
Speaker 3: But the idea is it never would have happened in
the first place had England not been in Scotland doing
what it was doing. And that's why the rest of
the story is necessary.
Speaker 2: Okay. Well, as a general idea, I think the movie
is a little bit long, and I think that beginning part, well,
is it necessary.
Speaker 3: If you've gotten if you've got a somewhat complicated plot,
it needs to be a little bit longer to be
fleshed out. Now you have a movie that's the exact
same length, and all it is is a revenge story.
Speaker 2: It's that the same length.
Speaker 3: It's shorter, oh but by ten minutes. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's let's let's flip that back.
Speaker 3: To the Gladiator. Okay, so you fought in by the
time that nothing happens, tell me about it.
Speaker 2: Okay. So when the movie starts, you immediately see Maximus
clearly has charisma. He's well respected, he's good at his job.
He's leading this battle onto the field against the Germania barbarians. Right, yeah,
he is brave. Because the guy says, hey, the catapults
are too close. He's like, nope, the risk is acceptable.
I'm going to be leading the charge. We got to
do it. And he leads the charge and has this
great victory. He meets with Marcus Relius, who is the
emperor who tells him, Look, you're so good at what
you do, my son is not worthy. I'm giving it
to you. I'm giving in Rome to you so you
can make sure that you get this back to the
people where the power belongs.
Speaker 3: Well, don't forget his big speech to the guys in
the middle of it, because that was before he was
going to give it was at the end of the battle.
They've had their battle. So don't forget Maximus's speech to
is meant did you?
Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, yes.
Speaker 3: Let you keep talking. I'm not gonna you did a
very good job of not interrupting my introduction. I'm I'll
let you keep going.
Speaker 2: The one where he's like, what we do in life
echoes an eternity, and if you find yourself with sun
on your face, don't be trouble because you're an elysium
and you're already dead. Right, stay with me, hold the line,
all this stuff.
Speaker 3: If you've seen the movie that came out afterward called Elysium,
that makes that line really fack.
Speaker 2: No, I that speech to me works. I'm ready to
stand and take a sword and wet my pants and
go do this thing. Yeah right, okay, so yeah, I
think it works. Great. I'm ready to ride horses with
this guy, and I'm ready to go to Elysium if
necessary when he gets this charge by Marcus Aurelius. He
is the only one who knows what has happened.
Speaker 3: He's the only one who knows that Marcus.
Speaker 2: Raelis once Marcusralis is murdered.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the only one that knows that the power
was supposed to go to him and not communists, right
except commonists accept commonists, well, right, right, So the easy
thing would be, I mean, what's the righteous thing to
do in that instance?
Speaker 2: You know that he's been the emperor has been slain somehow,
I have the responsibility. He gave it to me, and
you killed him before we could tell anybody.
Speaker 3: About this, but you turned it down.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but then it was taken from him. It
would be very easy. Look at what Quintus did. Quintus
look and saw, Okay, I can stick with my buddy Maximus,
who is in big trouble, or I can stick with
the emperor now the heir apparent, and he takes the
easy way out. Maximus could easily take the easy way out.
Take his hand, right, take my hand, I offered only
once yep, yeah, I see, you're kind of the guy
in charge. Now, all right, what does Lucilla do basically
the same thing.
Speaker 3: He's the She slaps him first, though.
Speaker 2: Well, she makes it known that she doesn't approve of
his choice to kill her father.
Speaker 3: How does she know? You keep going?
Speaker 2: I keep going anyway, Maximus has the courage to do
the right thing despite the extreme odds against him.
Speaker 3: Right, well, that's unquestionably true about both of these movies, right,
keep going because you got to get to you got
to get to the point of the driving force, which
is the revenge. Right. He's not going to get revenge
for the attempted execution, but go ahead and talk about that.
Speaker 2: So, so at that point Maximus is captured, communist says, look,
you get a chance to join me, you turn me down.
That's it. So Maximus says, hey, Quince's look at for
my family. Make sure you take care of my family.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you guy who's betraying me right now? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Quincess, his best buddy makes sense, says, your family
will meet you in the afterlife. Yeah what yeah, I
mean he flips like that. Yeah, So instantly we know
Maximus's family is big trouble. Right, Maximus is a big trouble.
They take him out to executing he asked for a
soldier's death. Yeah, and the three stooges are in charge,
you know, and takes them out rides fifteen hundred miles
back to Spain. Can't get there fast enough, and his
wife and child have been burned and crucified.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, yes.
Speaker 2: That is his now one goal in life. Before I mean,
he's briefly suicidal, I would say, he's captured by this
roaming guy who picks up gladators, which that is the
major problem I have.
Speaker 3: With It's a huge problem. But okay, so just so,
but that gets us to that same point, right, Yeah,
we've got that basically, it's the same point in the movie. Right,
We've established this is the driving motivator for the remainder
of the movie. Yes, the murder of his family, right,
and say, like for William Wallace, it was the murder
of his wife wife, and then as an after effect,
it has to be getting England out of Scotland, Okay,
because that was I mean, that was the cause, that
was the underlying.
Speaker 2: Both are very manly, very worthy causes.
Speaker 3: Right. So Gladiator starts off and Even before the movie starts,
you get this Yellow Dreams Works, and I was just like,
why is is this movie going to be in CPA Town?
What is going on here? And so okay, yeah, sure
it was cool, but it prepares you for Hey, we're
either going to be yellow or we're gonna be blue.
I was immediately distracted by Okay, it's blue, No, it's yellow.
Oh it's blue again? Yellow blue? What the heck is
going there?
Speaker 2: They did play with the filters, and I was just like,
why are you doing this?
Speaker 3: And so then you get this, You get this introduction
to the dog and you're like, oh, this is good.
The dog's going to be involved. No not okay, the
dog's not involved.
Speaker 2: Oh and there's about the dog for one second.
Speaker 3: Okay, but well there's a bird, but then the bird's
not involved. What are we looking at here?
Speaker 2: The dog good? Even the dog loves Maximus. How do
you win a dog's affection? You love the dog?
Speaker 3: Okay, so because everybody else loves him, I'm supposed to
love him. I don't like that you.
Speaker 2: Don't like Maximus. This movie doesn't work for you?
Speaker 3: Well, no, I just want to understand. I want to
have the movie give me the story that makes me
like Maximus. We're presented with him giving this speech to
these guys, which I think is probably the worst motivational
speech I've ever heard. Oh my gosh, hey, good news.
If you have the sun in your face, you're dead.
And if you think about where you want to be,
and that's where you be. You know, except for those
guys who are about to go die because obviously that's
not what they.
Speaker 2: Want either, you'll be where you want to be and
you'll be dead either way.
Speaker 3: It's okay, rights, that's a great motivational speech.
Speaker 2: You'll be out of this mud pit in Germany.
Speaker 3: Right. So then it's the headless guys coming in. How
the crap did that guy not fall off the horse?
I mean, not only did he not fall off the horse,
but he made it back to camp with no head.
Speaker 2: They say, no, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 3: And then the barbarians it's not ridiculous, it is dramatic.
It's stupid, okay, and hey, the good the good news
is that's like one of the one few funny lines
in this movie. As they said no, that one, I mean,
at least, I'm like, okay, I mean, it's ridiculous. But
at least he's making it funny. And then you get
the bad motivational speech. Then the Germanians stand there and
chant for five minutes while the Romans prepare with their
tar and they're flaming arrows and all of this.
Speaker 2: It's absurd. It is just absurd, dude, Yeah, you are
digging your own grave. I'm not.
Speaker 3: And then you get bad shaky camp in the battles,
and then without I just he's not a moral man.
Give me some backstory on why he's not a moral man.
You know, he's not a moral man. You have everything
you need already, No, he's not even he's twenty years
late through the battle. Twenty years yeah, yeah, so he
shows up, Hey, have I missed the battle?
Speaker 2: You missed the war?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Right, right, you have everything you need. And then and
then he kills his dad.
Speaker 3: Right, and then Marcus Aurelius says he will accept my decision. Yeah.
He really is not in touch with what commonist is
going to do. And the surgeon said he didn't suffer surgeons?
Really did they do surgery? Right there in the in
the tent with all of the candles burning there, you know,
in the very yellow tent, tent. That's double and tender
right there, yellow tant, yellow tent.
Speaker 2: Your way off base. You're way off base.
Speaker 3: And then what happens Quincus is betraying and when when
Maximus asks for help, he's not only like, not only
going to betray you, but I'm gonna give you the
middle finger. He does. That guy should have gotten it.
I mean, if I'm gonna hate a guy, it's that guy,
right right. And he doesn't get it. He's not through
the whole movie. Does he have any repercussions, and he
should on both sides. But what does he say? He says,
ride until dawn and then execute him, and then gives
the what everyone seems to think is the greatest warrior
of the army to the three stooges, as you so
accurately pointed out.
Speaker 2: And so Mo Larry, currently, get on out there, get
on your horse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, give me a soldier's death. How about no,
that would have been the end of that one.
Speaker 2: And then he guys, they knew this. He was like
a celebrity. And so he's there, he's their commandian officer.
Speaker 3: Right okay, And so they put him in a position
where he can grab the blade of the sword and
swing it like a bat and still have his fingers left.
Speaker 2: I could see.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm like, I can see. Is this going to
be a superhuman man? Is this what this is? Does
he have? Is he iron hands?
Speaker 2: I can see where that might cost some trouble?
Speaker 3: And then does he kill them all? Yes? Every single
one of them? Right?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And then later on the movie, comodist says, they
told me he is dead. Who the crap told you
he was dead? Quintus, because he's the only guy who
could have said that, right. He was the guy that
sent those guys off. So Quintus, knowing those guys didn't
show back up, God, knowing what would have happened, didn't
say Jack Squatt. So when Thomas finds out later on, hey,
guess what, Maximus isn't actually dead, the first guy he
should be talking to is Quintus going, Hey, what the crap, dude.
Speaker 2: You're thinking too much. I do agree logically that somebody
would have missed Millarry and Curly Okay, yes, their commanding officer. Hey,
where's Mullanyker? Okay, Hey wait a minute, weren't they supposed
to kill Maximus?
Speaker 3: Right? Where are those guys.
Speaker 2: Yes, I understand that, but you're thinking too much. We
need to get on with the story, okay.
Speaker 3: So then the next the next scene is him writing
as hard as he can with no stopping, and somehow
he hasn't been home in two and a half years,
three years, whatever he said, and somehow the guys who've
never been to his house beat him there.
Speaker 2: That's because I don't know why I did it, but
I don't know how they did it any But they
think he's dead, but they go ahead and crucify the
kid and the wife.
Speaker 3: So why why would they do that? What would be
the point? The only reason to do that is if
they think he's alive, which obviously they don't.
Speaker 2: No, that's the Emperor ordered them to take care well, Quintus, sure,
kill him, kill him?
Speaker 3: Get that? Yeah, yes, crucify them. That's a lot of
extra work for nobody who you think is alive to see.
Speaker 2: Yes, and the sun squealed like a girl.
Speaker 3: Yes, and the wife mowned like a wharp and so
and that again, that brings me to what you've just
talked about. You get a very short romance story with
I mean, honest, it's like you're thirty minutes into the
movie by the time this happens. But you get no
romance story with Maximus and his wife and child. If
we had moments, if we had something more than a
description later on, see his son get trampled by horses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, is that enough? Yeah, that's enough.
Speaker 3: Absolutely horrible, And I understand logically how we don't need
to get a father is going to want to revenge
the murder of his family. It's a movie. I'm supposed
to get that backstory.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, Speaking of his wife and family. The
actress who plays Maximus's wife, Yeah, she's a model. She's
actually Ridley Scott's wife. He married her in twenty ten.
She did White Squall with him.
Speaker 3: White Squaw that was nineties, right six?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Have you seen that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Was she a major part of that movie?
Speaker 2: Mmm? I can't remember.
Speaker 3: Okay. So then Maximus shows up, sees his burning family,
and then tells be Wan Kenobe that he has no
reason to stay here anymore. Wait a minute, No, that's
a different movie. Isn't different Burning Family?
Speaker 2: Sorry, there is a Star Wars connection in this movie.
Speaker 6: Then he is picked up by the jawas I mean
not the jawas a guy who's gathering gladiators out of nowhere.
Speaker 3: Whose whose medicinal expertise is let the maggots clean the
wound and then I'm a stuff some sand in it.
Speaker 2: They would clean it through the seat. Okay.
Speaker 3: And as you've pointed out, what a gigantic what the
crap moment is that where he's laying down exhausted at
the burning, crucified bodies of his family and then slave
traders come and steal him. I mean, that's what I
would do if I was a guy picking up slaves,
as I'd go over to the Roman general's house, look
for some over there.
Speaker 2: The guy living in Tuscany, So quick star Wars reference
for you, the guy Robert, the Bruce's dad. Yeah, the
guy who's kind of the wizard behind the Yeah, the leper, Yeah,
the leper. His face looks just like the guy from
Star Wars who taps Luke Skywalker on the shoulder and
the canteena and says, I don't like you, right, Marris
Man's buddy. I'm like, hey, those two guys are the
same guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not the same Guy's not the same anchor,
So okay, So there, I mean, they're the they're the
two beginnings. There's the setup for the story, and I'm
already hopelessly lost. You're giving me blue and yellow filters.
You're making no sense at all with any of this stuff,
and I'm not inspired to go fight with you.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, here's a couple of things I just want
to throw in kind of in the middle of our
argument here. I mean, clearly we've drawn the lines in
the sand. But when really Scott as it did the
Roman Colosseum, people kind of beat up, beat up both
movies right for being historically inaccurate. Brave Heart takes it
on the chin because William Wallace, and you know, he's
a man, he's a historical character, King of England, He's
a historical character. Maximus is fictional, right, So when when
Ridley Scott went to the Room Coliseum, he said, he
looked at it and said.
Speaker 3: It's too small.
Speaker 2: I need to make this jack this thing up right. Also, Maxim,
I thought this was really interesting. When Maximus meets Lucius
right Lustilla's son through the bars, He's talking to Lucius,
and Lucius says, hey, are those horses on your chest?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah? In the in the movie, does it seem onto
you at all that they're going to let the nephew
of Caesar within arms distance of the gladiator.
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with that at all. So
he asked him about the horses on his armor. Yes,
and Maximus points and he says, this is our gento
and this is Scartar, right, okay, And I know we're
talking about this.
Speaker 3: Are you Italian speakers out there?
Speaker 2: That was probably a terrible pronunciation of your words.
Speaker 3: No, that's not That's not where it was going. The
translation is.
Speaker 2: One horse's name is silver and the other's name is trigger.
Speaker 3: Right. And for people who may not be familiar with
the Lone Ranger and Roy Rodgers, those were the name
of their horses cowboys obviously that lived much later in life.
But it was a hey, Russell Crowe, Hey how about
we do this? And Ridley Scott said, yeah, go for it.
Speaker 2: He's like, you don't think anybody knows He's like, no silvergger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, except for people who spoke Italian and also were
familiar with the Lone Ranger and Roy.
Speaker 2: Rodgers and people who dive into movies for podcasts.
Speaker 3: Correct, call me Roy.
Speaker 2: That's right. One more thing I did want to mention
Oliver Reid, who plays Proximo. Yeah, he died on May
the second in nineteen ninety nine, which is in the
middle of filming Class, right.
Speaker 3: I still had some vital scenes to record.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and so the insurance company came to
release Scott and said, listen, this is part of the
insurance deal. You can reshoot those scenes and we'll pay
for it. Right really, Scott says, no, that's okay, We'll
just make it work, right yep. So they changed the script.
They actually put a CGI mask on a stun double.
The CGI mask is Oliver Reid at his house and
you can tell, I mean, you can see it.
Speaker 3: Yes, See what's the line, are you in danger of
becoming a good man?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: And he just responds yeah, which is an easy if
I'm going to do an Oliver read impression.
Speaker 2: So anyway, he was dead by that point. They had
to film that scene. If you look at it closely,
it's clearly a CGI mask.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The original storyline, Maximus fights the undefeated gladiator that
was supposed to be Proximum.
Speaker 2: I think you talked about the accidental drip. Yeah, I
don't think that that's as good. No, I think the
fact that Oliver Reid's death caused them to write out proximum.
It made the story better.
Speaker 3: It did make the story. It turns out to be
a good character.
Speaker 2: He does.
Speaker 3: He doesn't make it again. He doesn't make much sense
in the movie because he's talking about these guys like
they're all dead and useless, and then he's given them
inspirational speech.
Speaker 2: Is about shadows and dust Maximus.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, when the crowd whin your freedom's right, you
know I own you and I could give you your
freedom right now. But go ahead win that crowd and
then we'll talk about it.
Speaker 2: Okay. So here's one more thing. I wanted to mention.
The real live commtist, the actual historical figure, when he
would have these gladiator events. Yes, they would throw bread
into the crowd, right, which they show that in the movie.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: He would also throw snakes, Yeah, which was like.
Speaker 3: What Yeah, he was he was a bad guy. There's
no question he was a bad guy. That that is
historically accurate. I don't think that long Shanks was as
bad as they portrayed him in Brave Heart, but commedists,
the real comedist was not a good man. Interestingly, he
was killed by a gladiator. It wasn't out in the arena, though.
Do you know this? Do you know how the story
of his death?
Speaker 2: I know the guy's name. Okay, you know the guy's name.
Speaker 3: I don't know his name now narcissistia Okay, so narcissist
was a gladiator, but comtists. He had a list of
people that he wanted dead. I'm thinking of Billy Madison
right now and Steve with his lipstick on. But he
would make lists of people that needed to be killed
because he had dislike for them for one reason or another.
And one of the people that was a mistress of
his came across the list and saw her own name
on the list, and she was the one that was like, hey,
gladiator over here, let's see what we can do about this.
And he went and strangled him in his bath.
Speaker 5: Though.
Speaker 3: Wow, yeah I.
Speaker 2: Never heard that story. That's really cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I did have one interesting fact about the Brave Farm.
Speaker 4: Good.
Speaker 2: Okay, So the end scene, right, the disemballement scene, Yes,
very famous, very dramatic, very moving scene, very moving scene,
and really it's the highlight of the movie the Prisoner,
which is to say, oh what.
Speaker 3: That when he cries freedom. That's that is certainly that
moment for sure. Okay.
Speaker 2: So when they actually we've talked a little bit about
how people were leaving the movie and they were going
to use all the tools and it was scary and
people walked out. So the actual William Wallace before he
got there, right, so they castrated him in his jail
cell and drug him three miles and then he had
that to look forward to.
Speaker 3: And they then then they did do the They drew
and quartered him and took his various body parts to north, like.
Speaker 2: His head on London Bridge, right yep.
Speaker 3: On a spike in London Bridge. Ship. So it did
not have the effect that they intended.
Speaker 2: I guess not.
Speaker 3: There's I mean, these movies. We could go on and
on about these movies, the battle scenes which were from
my perspective, much better in Brave Heart, much more realistic.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I like Braveheart. The battle scenes were good.
I was interested, I was the story was compelling, the
romance was there. Everything works. It's just a little bit
long and a little bit convoluted for me, okay, okay,
and just me in general, I don't like big battle
scenes because it just kind of all smears together for me,
so like, I mean, I'm going to really hang myself here.
But like the Fellowship of the King or you.
Speaker 3: Know, Fellowship of the Ring, The Ring, Yes, Return of
the King.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those movies just a whole big miss the CGI battle.
Speaker 3: Okay, So on that point, just to touch on that
with Brave Heart, there wasn't a great deal of CGI
to be had at that time. But I mean I
say that, I mean Jurassic Park was coming out of
the in this time period as well. Sure, so obviously
there's a lot of CGI that could have been done,
but they didn't do it. They did they did a
very limited amount of CGI, and to me that was huge,
Like I can't detect it they used that looked realistic
except for that one scene where he's jumping into the
water and you're like, is that a Barbie horse? The
CGI to me in Gladiator, I could see it, like
I couldn't always see it. They obviously did a bunch
of stuff that I didn't.
Speaker 2: Notice, but they were little, but it was noticeable. Yeah,
I mean when the tiger takes a swipe of that guy. Yeah,
but I don't care because tigers are Tiger's in fighting
are interesting.
Speaker 3: Right, but I mean the giant colisseum and all of
those things. It just didn't I was like, oh, here's
a computer generated thing. And I am not against CGI.
I just don't want to know that it's there. I
want it to be so good that I don't realize
that it's there. Okay, And I realized it was there.
Speaker 2: Well, just just kind of wrap up.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think both stories are good. They're both compelled. Obviously
they're good. They're both Best Picture winners, right, we talked
about that. Ninety five for Brave Heart, two thousand for Gladiator.
These are well loved, well respected movies. I just find
the Gladiator story for me, the character of Maximus is
somebody I identify with I aspire to be.
Speaker 3: Okay, so to me it is it's the opposite. I
want some complication. I want to be surprised and intrigued.
With Gladiator, there wasn't anything in the movie that I
didn't see coming, Like, there were no surprises to me
at all. It was like, oh, here's that scene where
he's about to wipe out the guys that are supposed
to execute him. I know that it's about to happen.
With Brave Heart, I got surprised after surprise after surprise,
the betrayal that happens, the tactical things that happened. It
was not foretelling the movie to me. It was, oh, hey,
I'm experiencing this as happening, and I'm living in the moment.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's fair.
Speaker 3: Stayed ahead of me, That's that's I guess what I
was the short way to say. It's stayed ahead of me.
Speaker 2: And that's fine because and I'm okay with that because
Gladiator is a straightforward revenge story. I did read online
people are like, this is just a steven Sagall movie.
It's the same story of revenge. I don't care. The
story is compelling, the setting's compelling, it's well made. I'm
on board. I don't care.
Speaker 3: And we didn't really get to go into the soundtracks.
But obviously you love the Hans zimmercenttra absolutely, I don't.
I love the James Horner I mean you can. You
will walk away from Brave Heart and the tune will
be in your head. There's no tune on the Hans
Zimmer I mean there's there's. His style of music is
not really one to give you a tune most of
the time. But if I've got a hero. I want
the hero to have a theme.
Speaker 2: Well, it is a little bit frustrating that, like Indiana
Jones has the Raiders March, I can whistle it right now, right,
but this is just just moves through.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean the movies that we really love people
had themes. Even Marty had a theme.
Speaker 2: But I don't care because the music in this movie
is so good. I got the soundtrack at home and
it's awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Grit, I mean, yes, they were mud farmers, but
they were dirty and it was real dirt, like this
was an a an effect of being in Scotland where
it rained nine days out of ten. They were actually muddy.
Everybody was so clean, like even the slaves were clean.
And in Gladiator I didn't have that grit. I wanted
grit that I didn't get. I wanted it to be dirtier,
and it was, like I said at the beginning, my
compliment was it was dusty, but it was not dirty.
It was a pretty picture. And if I'm talking about
guys hacking each other to death in the Ring, I
don't want pretty picture. I want some grit and I
didn't have it in Gladiator. Okay, and then last thing. No,
two last things. First, last thing, and I've already said it.
William Wallace had a cause and the cause was freedom.
It wasn't just a revenge story. That's a more compelling
plot line. You want simple revenge story. I want not
just a simple revenge story. Let's talk about freedom. His
speech to his troops, after you've been following him for
a full hour and you see what he's done. You've
gone through battles with him, you've gone through his loss,
you've gone through all of that. That's a moving speech.
And he takes it right out of Henry the Fifth.
I fight, and you may die.
Speaker 5: Run and your love.
Speaker 3: At least a while.
Speaker 5: I'm dying in your beds many years from now. Would
you be willing the trade all the day from this
day to that for one chut, just one chunt. Don't
come back here and tell all right, then they may
take our life.
Speaker 3: No fact.
Speaker 2: And it was cool A mel Gibson talks about how
every time he yelled, his horse would trot. Yeah, and
that's why he's back and forth and moving around, and it.
Speaker 3: Pumps that intensity up. It pumps that intensity up to
see and fighting with that horse and having to yell
his line.
Speaker 2: It's cool, man, it's cool.
Speaker 3: It's all cool, Okay. And then finally, yeah, last thing.
And I said this about the Rise of Skywalker. I've
said it about other movies. Gladiator had no comedy.
Speaker 2: It didn't have any comedy.
Speaker 3: I can't have a movie with no comedy in it.
I mean, even Schindler's List had funny moments. Yes, Braveheart
has a ton of funny moments that have to break
up that intensity of the fact that they're hacking each
other to death. And by the way, I don't remember
if we mentioned this, the extras in this movie were
the Irish Reserve Army and they had companies and they
were local I mean, he's kind of like, you know,
local soccer teams. They had it in for each other
a little bit. There was a lot of competition going on,
so the scenes were as realistic as they are because
those guys really trying, were trying to beat the crap
out of each other.
Speaker 2: Right, I think that's cool too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I gotta have Steven in there saying a lot.
Speaker 5: Tells me he can get me out of this match,
but he's pretty sure your.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm okay with Maximus being super pissed
and working his way for one single cause it's super
satisfying to me. Yeah when he sticks that knife and
commence's throat at the end, Yeah, I'm like sweet anyway,
all right, So that about doesn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's it. I mean, we we've covered it. Yeah,
we're going to convince you and you're not going to
convince me. But hopefully the folks out there will see.
Speaker 2: The flaws in your movie. Side with me, all right,
Please wait in on this and social media. Yeah, hit
us up on Facebook and Twitter, at Shirley Podcast, at
Shirley Cup Podcast on both of them. You can find
us also on YouTube. We have the Surely you Can't
Be serious YouTube channel.
Speaker 3: And I just would like to go ahead and give
a shout out to our buddies over the Thirty Somethings podcast.
We love them. They continue to they continue to give
us a great podcast, and they continue to promote us
on their podcast, and we just.
Speaker 2: We love you guys. That's right, The Illinois Contingent super
appreciate you guys. Yeah, we like you, Spaniard. We show
cheer for you, all right, signing off, all right, thanks
good CD.
Speaker 3: Good CT Jason. AllMusic, images and movie clips are used
for the purposes of commentary and education in conjunction with
the fair Use agreement under the US copyright law.