1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. 14 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. Welcome back to 15 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,479 part two of our conversation with doctor Jeffrey Smallden discussing 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,320 his book That Beast Was Not Me One forensic psychologist. 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,679 Five decades of conversations with killers. A number of the 18 00:01:01,759 --> 00:01:04,439 people that you studied, I think that's a fair word, 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,040 and corresponded with were on death row and some of 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:16,040 them ultimately were put to death cognizant. Were these individuals 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,200 and did they ever reference the fact that they were 22 00:01:19,239 --> 00:01:20,560 facing the death penalty? 23 00:01:21,159 --> 00:01:24,359 Speaker 5: It's an interesting question. But by the time I began 24 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,959 corresponding with Manson, he was no longer on death row 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,040 because two years after his conviction, the Supreme Court of California, 26 00:01:33,079 --> 00:01:37,000 following the US Supreme Court, had found the application of 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,480 the death penalty on a constitutional and so on, so 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,480 he was moved from death row to life. Gasey, on 29 00:01:43,519 --> 00:01:46,319 the other hand, was on death row. Bundy, when I 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,799 had my brief exchange with him, was on death row. 31 00:01:50,439 --> 00:01:55,280 Bundy certainly never mentioned death row in his letter, and 32 00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:59,959 I don't Gaysey didn't really talk about being on death 33 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:04,359 throw either, either when we were meeting in person or 34 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,959 in his letters. That's not something I remember him bringing up. 35 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: And did any of them ever acknowledge the fact that 36 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,479 they were guilty of the things they'd been charged with. 37 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:19,439 We talked about Manson insisting he'd done nothing wrong. And 38 00:02:19,479 --> 00:02:22,479 the truth is, Manson, as far as we know, actually 39 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,879 never killed anyone. He directed other people to kill. But 40 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,120 did any of these people ever acknowledge that they were 41 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,840 guilty of the crimes they were charged with? 42 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 5: It was a surreal experience to talk with Gacy about 43 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:44,159 his legal case, because I knew that he had confessed 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:50,159 multiple times, including to his attorney, to the Dusk Planes 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,879 Police in Illinois, but for reasons I still don't understand, 46 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:59,280 there was never a tape made of these confessions. And 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,560 Gacy would say, show me the recording, show me a 48 00:03:03,599 --> 00:03:08,120 recording that documents a confession. You won't You'll never find 49 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,000 it because there isn't one. And he would insist that 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,360 he couldn't possibly have been the one responsible for these 51 00:03:17,039 --> 00:03:20,599 twenty six bodies under his house and total of thirty 52 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,719 three that he was found guilty of. And he could 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,039 go on and on about how many people had keys 54 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:31,159 to that house. And it wasn't really what you're thinking 55 00:03:31,199 --> 00:03:34,360 of as a house, Jeff. This is how Gasey put it, 56 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:37,599 where the wife is cooking in the kitchen and the 57 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:40,759 father is sitting in the living room watching television and 58 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,759 reading the newspaper. It wasn't that kind of house. It 59 00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:47,280 was like a business house where people would come and 60 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:51,240 go and other people had keys. You know. When I 61 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:54,360 wanted to talk with Gasey about the victims, but by 62 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,319 the time I was able to speak with him in person. 63 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,560 I knew enough about him and how incredibly narcissistic and 64 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,039 prickly he was in the face of any and all 65 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,080 challenges that I had to tread carefully when it came 66 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,960 to that subject. But I wanted to talk with him 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,159 about it. And I remember I brought up the subject 68 00:04:15,439 --> 00:04:19,480 and I said, first, I said, didn't you confess? And 69 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:22,360 he said, what I just told you, he said, And 70 00:04:22,399 --> 00:04:25,600 then he said, I'll go this far with you, Jeff, 71 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,120 I know something about five of them, five thirty three. 72 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,240 And I said, let's talk about those five. And he 73 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,519 wouldn't say much initially, but he said, if you come back. 74 00:04:39,079 --> 00:04:41,360 He wanted me to come back. He said, if you 75 00:04:41,399 --> 00:04:43,839 come back, maybe I'll tell you a little more. That 76 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,360 was debaate, So when I went back for a second visit, 77 00:04:47,399 --> 00:04:51,519 I brought these five up again. He described the first one, 78 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,279 which when all the books about gaycy it's described in 79 00:04:54,399 --> 00:04:56,800 much the same way. He described it as a self 80 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,279 defense killing. The other ones. I would say, you know 81 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:04,839 what about John Bukevich And he would say that Punk 82 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,199 worked for me for a little while. He disappeared, or 83 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,920 his mother wanted me to help him try to get 84 00:05:11,959 --> 00:05:14,920 off drugs, and I said, but wasn't he found in 85 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:17,839 your crawl space? And he said, I can't get into that. 86 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,600 My attorneys, Well, my attorneys won't let me talk about that, 87 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,720 so he would shut off inquiries pretty quickly. The one 88 00:05:26,759 --> 00:05:30,240 of his five that I was especially interested in was 89 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,399 the final one, Rob Peaste, fifteen year old boy who 90 00:05:34,399 --> 00:05:40,399 he kidnapped under extraordinarily braize and circumstances. I went to 91 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:42,519 the site of that kidnapping a couple of years ago, 92 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,120 just because I always wanted to see it so I 93 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,319 could envision myself how that might have played out. And 94 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,560 it was a tiny little parking lot outside a pharmacy 95 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:57,800 that now incidentally is a daycare and preschool, which is 96 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,199 just bizarre. But gay See kidnapped this fifteen year old boy, 97 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,439 and the boy's mother was there in the parking lot 98 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,480 waiting for him. So Gasey and I talked about that 99 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,639 case more than any of the others. There was a 100 00:06:12,759 --> 00:06:17,240 receipt for a role of film that was linked to 101 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,439 Rob Peate, who was found in the kitchen garbage bag 102 00:06:21,879 --> 00:06:25,839 in Gacy's house. I would say, what about that receipt? 103 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,399 How did that get in your house? And he would 104 00:06:28,439 --> 00:06:31,399 just he said, I don't know how it got there. 105 00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:34,519 People were coming in and out of my house all 106 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,079 the time. Anybody could have brought that in there. And 107 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,920 remember I was doing work at construction work at that pharmacy. 108 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,199 I don't have any idea how that got here. And 109 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:47,399 then they found some of Rob Peace's clothing in his house, 110 00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:51,319 and he said, first of all, those search warrants weren't valid, 111 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,519 and second of all, they say they're looking for whatever. 112 00:06:54,519 --> 00:06:57,879 It was a pair of tan pants and a shirt 113 00:06:58,639 --> 00:07:00,959 I had. There were boys going in and out of 114 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:03,079 that house all the time. How was I supposed to 115 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,920 know that those things would be an eye? He could 116 00:07:06,199 --> 00:07:08,279 go on and on. He was one of the world's 117 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,319 most vile bullshitters. Obviously. Wow. 118 00:07:12,879 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 4: You started the book talking about Manson, and one of 119 00:07:17,079 --> 00:07:20,959 the very interesting sort of through lines throughout the book 120 00:07:21,079 --> 00:07:25,480 is Manson and related subject matter. But the thing that 121 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,439 I found most interesting, the story that I found most interesting, 122 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,879 which I actually messaged you the other day and said, 123 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,240 oh my gosh, I'd forgotten about this woman, Rosy Tate Polansky. 124 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,120 You've always been so gracious about answering my questions, so 125 00:07:37,199 --> 00:07:40,519 thank you for that. I had mentioned that you had 126 00:07:40,639 --> 00:07:44,120 written about the saga of Rosy Tate Polanski, And it 127 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,480 wasn't until I read in your book that I realized, oh, 128 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:49,839 my gosh, I've heard about this woman before. Tell our 129 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,360 listeners who may not be familiar who Rosy Tate Polanski is. 130 00:07:54,439 --> 00:07:57,360 Anybody who's familiar with the Manson case will recognize those 131 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:01,439 two names. What is her story or maybe more, what 132 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:02,480 is her malfunction? 133 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,399 Speaker 5: When I encountered Rosie late during the year two thousand, 134 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:12,519 I had no idea what to make of her. I 135 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,079 had never heard of Rosie Tate Polanski. Her name was 136 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:21,759 featured in a column in my local Columbus newspaper, and 137 00:08:21,959 --> 00:08:25,240 the headline of the column was something like, conspiracy theorists 138 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,319 will have to go a long way to top This 139 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:32,559 story about Rosy Tate polanskire something right away. I heard 140 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,639 those names. I thought this must be about Manson somehow, 141 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,399 and I'm like this Manson case obsessive. So I'm reading 142 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:43,519 it and the reporter talks about being invited to what 143 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,799 was billed as a memorial service in Lancaster, about thirty 144 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:52,879 miles south of Columbus for the victims of the Manson 145 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,360 family killings. On August ninth and tenth, nineteen sixty nine, 146 00:08:57,759 --> 00:09:01,000 and it said that it was being held by Rosie 147 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:06,600 Tate Polanski and William Garretson, who for all students of 148 00:09:06,639 --> 00:09:12,320 the Manson case, William Garretson is like a central character. 149 00:09:12,879 --> 00:09:16,480 He was on the property the night the Charantate and 150 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,879 four others were murdered on August ninth. He was the caretaker. 151 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,600 He had been hired that summer by the property owner, 152 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,879 Rudy auto Belli, to take care of his dogs and 153 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,559 told that he could stay in a guest house which 154 00:09:30,639 --> 00:09:33,679 was located not far from the main house and the 155 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:38,159 main lawn where these savage murders took place. So everybody 156 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,240 knows about Bill Garretson. The police arrived the next morning 157 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:47,200 after these murders and found Bill Garretson in the caretaker's house, 158 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,200 and Garretson said he had no idea there had been 159 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,879 any murders. The night before, he'd had hystereoon loud. He 160 00:09:53,919 --> 00:09:57,200 hadn't heard anything that made him think people were being murdered. 161 00:09:57,399 --> 00:10:01,559 So the police took him in the custody formally charged him, 162 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,200 but initially they believed he must have been responsible for 163 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:08,279 these murders because he was there on the property the 164 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,320 whole night. So later I learned that Bill Garretson was 165 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,159 from Carol, Ohio, which is just south of Columbus. He 166 00:10:16,279 --> 00:10:20,000 was hitchhiking in California when this Rudy alto Belli picked 167 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:22,159 him up and offered him a job, So that's why 168 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:25,360 he was there, But he was from Ohio. In this 169 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,519 column in my paper, the guy who wrote the column 170 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,000 said that Rosie Tate Polanski and this is such a 171 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:36,720 bizarre story I probably won't have time to get into 172 00:10:36,759 --> 00:10:40,799 its nuances. But Rosie, who was living on the East 173 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,080 Coast at the time, saw a rare interview by Bill 174 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:50,440 Garretson on e Television which ran in nineteen ninety nine, 175 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,360 the thirtieth anniversary of the Manson murders, and she saw 176 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,919 Garretson on TV. Whether she believed her story before then 177 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:05,279 or created it after them is not entirely clear, But 178 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,639 by the time I met her in Ohio, what she 179 00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:13,519 was saying was I'm Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate's daughter. 180 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,799 On the night of the murders, Sharon Tate was eight 181 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:19,919 and a half months pregnant. Everybody knows that, but she 182 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:24,279 says I was cut from her stomach. 183 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, or she died. 184 00:11:27,879 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 5: I was cut from her stomach before she died. And 185 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:35,799 then she talks about this complicated web of Hollywood a 186 00:11:36,039 --> 00:11:40,480 listers who shepherded her from the Tate property, funneled her 187 00:11:40,519 --> 00:11:44,000 through Frank Sinatra's house where she was seen by Frank 188 00:11:44,039 --> 00:11:48,120 Sinatra's personal physician, sent to the East Coast, where she 189 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,559 was raised not knowing who she was by Patty Duke's 190 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,720 first cousin. Patty Duke had become friends with Sharon Tate 191 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,600 during their filming of Valley of the Dolls, So that 192 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,240 was the connection that Rosie was citing. And Rosie said 193 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,679 she didn't learn her true identity until her early twenties. 194 00:12:08,039 --> 00:12:11,399 And of course the first question is, but Sharon Tate's 195 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:16,840 baby was a boy, Richard Polanski, and Rosie says, no, 196 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:23,639 fake news. That's part of the conspiracy. 197 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: Around the world. Hear me rolling my eyes. 198 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:32,519 Speaker 5: In defense of myself, because I probably a complete moron 199 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,759 at this point. Were even agreeing to talk with this woman, 200 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,639 But there are reasons why. First of all, I read 201 00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:44,720 this Kyle, and I thought I need to meet this woman. Yeah, I. 202 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: Don't doubt that I. 203 00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:54,799 Speaker 5: Reach out for Rosie, and Rosie agrees to meet with me. 204 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:55,799 She pulls out. 205 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,039 Speaker 2: Of course, she dies, do me. 206 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,039 Speaker 5: We do meet in Lancaster at a lone star steakhouse 207 00:13:03,399 --> 00:13:06,480 for the first thing that happens, and I hope this 208 00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:09,879 was one of the comicic moments in a book about 209 00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:13,519 other wise serious subjects. We sit down at this high 210 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,639 top in the bar at this restaurant, and Rosie, who 211 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:23,360 sorry notably homely person, says, Jeff, look at my face. 212 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,279 Tell me I'm not the spitting image of my mother. 213 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 214 00:13:30,879 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 4: She'd me laugh out loud. 215 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 5: And Jaron Tay was reputed to be one of the 216 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,080 most beautiful women in the and I thought he was gorgeous. 217 00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:40,639 How am I going to deal with this? This requires 218 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:46,120 quick thinking that you're capable of. So I need this 219 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:50,919 lightning scan of Rosie's features, looking very serious while I'm 220 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,480 doing it, including the kind of extravagant updu she has 221 00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:58,879 on the top of her head. And then I moved 222 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,039 my head from side to side and I said, wait, 223 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:07,559 I see it. Yeah, light lights up. 224 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 2: She's so happy, world class bs her. 225 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 4: That was masterful. The way that you handled that. 226 00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:16,519 Speaker 2: I read that. 227 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:18,639 Speaker 4: I was like, my god. 228 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 5: Rosie, it looked like I pulled it off. But then 229 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,360 she told me that she had a whole box of 230 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,919 correspondence from Roman Polanski, who of course is in exile 231 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,840 in France for raping a thirteen year old girl. And 232 00:14:34,919 --> 00:14:38,919 she says, he acknowledges who I am, that I'm his daughter, 233 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,759 over and over again. And I said, can I see 234 00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:43,679 those letters? Yeah? 235 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,559 Speaker 2: Really, that's a whole other book. 236 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,879 Speaker 5: And she says, of course you can. Yeah, I'll bring 237 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,399 them to our next meeting. Of course you can, with 238 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,519 no hesitation at all. And then I say, would in 239 00:14:57,679 --> 00:15:01,759 DNA solve this issue? And she's this is totally but 240 00:15:02,159 --> 00:15:04,759 I've got to go by his timing. He wants to 241 00:15:04,799 --> 00:15:07,399 be the one in charge of when it takes place. 242 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,480 And then later on in the book and Christen you 243 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,480 mentioned this. Then this was long after my contacts with Rosie, 244 00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:19,919 and they ended on a not positive note. But years 245 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:26,720 later I encountered first in the book Restless Souls, ostensibly 246 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:31,399 was the story of the Tate families experience surrounding and 247 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:35,840 after the Manson murders, Rosie pops up in that book. 248 00:15:35,879 --> 00:15:39,519 That book was published in twenty twelve, so twelve twelve 249 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:43,960 years after my contacts with Rosie. But that describes how 250 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,799 years before I met Rosie, she had showed up on 251 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,320 the doorstep of the Tate house and announced to Sharon 252 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,840 Tate's parents, I'm Sharon Tate and they said what she said, No, 253 00:15:55,919 --> 00:15:59,840 I'm Sharon Tate reincarnated, and you get away from our 254 00:16:00,799 --> 00:16:05,159 closed the door. But Rosie persisted. And then much later 255 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,720 after I read that book and encountered Rosie, I encountered 256 00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:13,399 Rosie again in Rachel Monroe's Savage Appetites, which came out 257 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,120 in twenty seventeen. I believe. 258 00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a great book. 259 00:16:16,759 --> 00:16:21,399 Speaker 5: Yeah. She talks about these devotes four chapters to different 260 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,879 women who had obsessive relationships with true crime for one 261 00:16:25,919 --> 00:16:30,080 reason or another, and one of them focuses on the 262 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:34,639 woman who wrote Restless Souls in cooperation with Sharon Tate's 263 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,440 niece Brie. Rosie pops up again in that book. If 264 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,279 you were to ask me, where is Rosie Tate Polanski 265 00:16:42,679 --> 00:16:46,519 in twenty twenty four and what is she doing? I 266 00:16:46,559 --> 00:16:48,879 would say I have no clue where she is. I 267 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,399 don't know what she's doing. And if you said, was 268 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,519 she just bonkers? Was she delusional? Or was this all 269 00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:00,679 a deliberately orchestrated lie. I honestly don't know the answer 270 00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:04,960 to that question. If I had to guess, I would 271 00:17:05,039 --> 00:17:10,279 say that Rosie is a severely personality disordered person, an 272 00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:16,079 attention seeker, and, as Rachel Monroe suggests, someone who created 273 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:20,319 this identity that closely linked her to an infamous crime, 274 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,200 and it became the center of her life. I don't 275 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,359 think she was truly delusional in the sense that she 276 00:17:28,519 --> 00:17:31,200 believed all of this just one other thing and then 277 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,680 I'll be quiet about this. But back when I was 278 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,119 trying to figure out what the hell is going on here, 279 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,000 it's like I had gone through the looking glass. But 280 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:44,000 she'd become engaged to Bill Garrison. 281 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 4: I was about to ask that next part, about to 282 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,160 tell it, say it go ahead. 283 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 5: So she had appeared on his doorstep in Carol, Ohio 284 00:17:53,599 --> 00:17:58,480 after seeing him on television. They determined together that they 285 00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:02,799 were the Soul's survivors of that night of carnage in 286 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,640 August nineteen sixty nine, and they got engaged. 287 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 2: Of course they had actually what. 288 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,519 Speaker 5: Else could they do? So and so by the time 289 00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:16,640 I met Rosie, actually they had broken off their engagement. 290 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,799 She said because Bill was so traumatized by all of 291 00:18:20,839 --> 00:18:24,799 his memories related to the Manson murders. She claimed that 292 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:31,599 Bill confirmed everything. She said, that he totally bought her 293 00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:36,000 version of what happened. Of course, Bill was in his 294 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,759 late teens, I think nineteen, but in Rosie's account, Bill 295 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:45,519 had actually held her in his arms as an infant 296 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,319 the night of the murders, and Bill claimed to remember that. 297 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,000 So I'm thinking, does he really? But then he said 298 00:18:53,079 --> 00:18:57,240 something that got my attention. He said, I've spent thirty 299 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,920 years trying to remember what happened that night, and it's 300 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,079 so confusing and fragmented to me. But it all began 301 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,480 coming together when Rosie arrived here and started filling in 302 00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:12,480 the gaps for me. 303 00:19:12,839 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 2: Of course it did. 304 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:18,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, So Bill was apparently very vulnerable to Rosie's persuasion. 305 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,599 By the time I met him with Rosie, he had 306 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,400 become convinced that her story was the truth. 307 00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: By the way, we need to use the power of 308 00:19:28,039 --> 00:19:32,039 the World Wide Web here, Rosie. We know you're out there, 309 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:37,680 and doctor Smalden wants to hear from you and reach out. 310 00:19:37,839 --> 00:19:40,759 You can reach out Care of Mind over Murder if 311 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:43,799 you like, and we'll put you back in touch because 312 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,839 this conversation is not over. It's too fascinating. 313 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 4: So the part about this though, that really it does 314 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,720 upset me a lot because she, if it is in 315 00:19:55,759 --> 00:19:58,759 fact true, that she has got some sort of borderline 316 00:19:58,759 --> 00:20:04,359 personality disorder here, she prayed on a vulnerable, victimized, traumatized person, 317 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:06,880 getting him to believe that, and I hate that. That 318 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,680 makes me furious. You had mentioned in there that she 319 00:20:09,759 --> 00:20:14,319 had been sending Mother's Day gifts to Doris Tate for years. 320 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,960 That's disgusting. I really, there are very few people that 321 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,599 actually want to reach for the page and punch in 322 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,720 the face, but I really it was very upsetting to 323 00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:27,319 me that she had perpetrated this grift or con or 324 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,119 whatever you want to call it. But it was very 325 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,799 upsetting to read like it's there is a little bit 326 00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:34,119 of we're sitting here laughing about it because it is 327 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,799 in some ways entertaining because it is so obviously absurd, 328 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,279 But it's also really upsetting what she did to the 329 00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:44,640 Tate family by presenting herself in this way. 330 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,079 Speaker 5: I agree to the Tate family and to Bill Garretson, 331 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,839 and I don't think Rosie gave much thought to people 332 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,480 other than Rosie, and she was created this drama for 333 00:20:58,599 --> 00:21:02,200 herself and it had become the center of her life story. 334 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,039 And I don't think she was giving much thought to 335 00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:06,319 the people she was hurting. 336 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,079 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 337 00:21:10,319 --> 00:21:16,960 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 338 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:17,880 mindover Murder. 339 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 4: What would you say are some of the takeaways that 340 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:27,440 you have gleaned about serial murderers and criminals over your 341 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,519 many years of interaction with them, in your years of experience, 342 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,400 what are two or three takeaways that you would want 343 00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:36,519 our listeners to now. 344 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 5: Two or three And in some reays they seem so 345 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,440 obvious that they hardly warrant mentioned, but I experienced them 346 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:51,200 in particularly dramatic ways. One is the capacity for lying. 347 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,519 Most people just don't have much experience with someone who 348 00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:59,559 can sit across from a narrow table from them and 349 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,079 steer them straight in the eye and just lie over 350 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,720 and over again with apparent complete conviction. That's a very 351 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:13,160 disorienting experience to have. And I'm thinking particularly of Gacy. 352 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,319 I Gaysey could just lie and lie and lie with 353 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,480 a parent conviction, and it's just hard to imagine how 354 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:26,839 he does that. How he pulls it off. That's one thing. 355 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:32,200 Another thing is the incredible absence of empathy. It's one thing. 356 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,799 We talk about the callousness of criminals, and they do 357 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,480 things without regard for other people's feelings and cause emotional 358 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:45,920 and physical harm. I tell one story in my book. 359 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,480 It's one of several that converge around the same theme. 360 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,839 But I talk about sitting across from Gacy and trying 361 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,000 to draw Gasy out about his victims. And he used 362 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:01,400 to bring out paintings that wanted me to at least 363 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,880 think about purchasing. He said, that's how I paid for 364 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,799 my postage, my envelopes, blah blah blah. And this day 365 00:23:06,839 --> 00:23:09,119 he had brought out a painting he had done of 366 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,480 the seven Dwarfs. And in the painting there like at 367 00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:17,480 the mouth of the mine, and there's a shovel in 368 00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:18,920 the lower left hand corner. 369 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,039 Speaker 4: I'm looking at it right now. 370 00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:22,839 Speaker 5: In your book, Yeah, this is a guy who lived 371 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,759 in a house that had twenty six bodies buried in 372 00:23:25,799 --> 00:23:29,920 the crawl space. That shovel takes on obvious significance. But 373 00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:33,799 Gasey says, you know what, Jeff, And he positioned his 374 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,880 hands like you would position your hands if you were 375 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,359 fanning out a deck of cards. And he says, I've 376 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,920 got pictures of every one of those kids that they 377 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,839 say I killed back in my cell, and I sit 378 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,279 back there and I look at those and he acted 379 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:52,599 like he was fanning out the collection of pictures. He said, 380 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,400 I look at those kids, and they are no more 381 00:23:55,519 --> 00:23:58,640 real to me than and he pauses for a minute, 382 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,839 I'm not sure how to finish the and then he 383 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,799 looks at the painting of the Seven Dwarfs, which are 384 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,680 cartoon characters, and he says, then those cartoon characters in 385 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,720 that painting, oh wow, And I remember it just struck 386 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:16,079 me so hard at that moment. That's probably the first 387 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,359 truthful thing he said all day, that they had no 388 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,480 more reality to him than those cartoon characters. So the 389 00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:29,519 incredible lack of empathy is certainly something else. And something 390 00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:33,599 else is how incredibly hard these people work at the 391 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:40,400 performative aspects of their presentation. They have very carefully curated 392 00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:45,880 personas that they use to interact with other people in 393 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,960 the world, both inside and outside prison. We would all 394 00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:53,480 hope that people capable of the kind of violence these 395 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:57,200 people committed would look like Charles Manson, because as soon 396 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,359 as we saw them, we would know to turn and run. 397 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,160 But the reality is that they don't. Most of them don't. 398 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,119 They look like very normal people. They're well camouflaged, they 399 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,480 work hard at it, they blend in very well. One 400 00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:15,759 of the serial killers I devoted chapter two, whose case 401 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:19,119 I worked on during my career, was a serial sniper 402 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,680 here in Ohio. Thomas Lee Dillon and Dylan lived in 403 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,839 a very nice house in a suburban neighborhood. He and 404 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,400 his wife had a ten year old son. He did 405 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,960 the same job with the Canton, Ohio Water Department for 406 00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,640 twenty years. He played tennis with a group of his friends, 407 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,480 and on the weekends he's going out in his red 408 00:25:39,519 --> 00:25:44,400 pickup truck and literally picking off strangers. So these people 409 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,359 are very well camouflaged, and that's something that we all 410 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,519 need to remember. I'll just mention this briefly. Anyone who 411 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:56,000 reads my book will encounter it. Early on. I included 412 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,240 something I called a family vignette early in the book 413 00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:03,640 where my daughter, as she was about to graduate from college, says, 414 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:05,880 you know what, Dad, I used to wonder back when 415 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,319 I was a kid, what if you were a serial killer? 416 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:10,839 How would we know it? And I said, oh, that's funny, 417 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,200 No need to worry. I'm not a serial killer. And 418 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,279 she said, but that's exactly what you would say if 419 00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:15,880 you were one. 420 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 421 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 5: I said, I'm not, and she said, okay, but I 422 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,279 would That would still be even if you were one. 423 00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:26,720 And then I said, if I ever behaved in a 424 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:29,480 way that makes you think I'd be capable of killing someone, 425 00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:32,519 and she says no, but so what that doesn't mean anything? 426 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,640 And I'm thinking, that's my girl. Yeah, that is the 427 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:36,440 danger of it. 428 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 4: You would know exactly how to act and not call 429 00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:41,160 attention to yourself. 430 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,319 Speaker 2: Much like the rest of the natural world, the ability 431 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:51,720 to blend in and disguise oneself as a average anonymous 432 00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:52,680 if you will. 433 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,759 Speaker 5: Personally, that's the goal of those people. 434 00:26:55,599 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 2: Is to fit right in. 435 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 5: I was just going to say, it's startling how good 436 00:26:59,799 --> 00:27:02,319 they are at it, or at least many of them are. 437 00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:05,039 Speaker 4: Jeff, I wanted to ask you. I'm looking at the 438 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,240 picture section in the back of your book and I'm 439 00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:12,920 wondering if you can tell us the story behind one 440 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,519 of the gay Sy paintings. So you have several paintings 441 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:20,880 from Gaysey. He painted you a knockoff of Picasso's John 442 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,319 Quixote drawing, and he put your initials in don Quixote's shield. 443 00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:29,279 Can you explain what made him decide, Hey, you know what, today, 444 00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:32,119 I'm going to paint Jeff his own special John Wayne 445 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,240 Gacy painting, and it's going to be Don Quixote. Can 446 00:27:35,319 --> 00:27:36,599 you talk about that a little bit. 447 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:41,839 Speaker 5: Yeah, this was, in Gasey's words, a one of a kind. Yeah, 448 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,920 that's what he told me. Anyway, this is a one 449 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,160 of a kind. I'm going to paint this for you, Jeff. 450 00:27:47,559 --> 00:27:49,680 I didn't know exactly what it was going to look 451 00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:52,200 like until I got it. I didn't know it was 452 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,599 going to be called The Quest, and I didn't know 453 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,599 my initials would be on the shield. I've had to 454 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,279 live ever since then with the distinction of having one 455 00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:05,359 of the twentieth century's most prolific liars say that he 456 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,119 put my initials on Don Quixote's shield because he saw 457 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:15,000 me as a cluster after the truth. So that's why 458 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,599 JS is on the shield. 459 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,759 Speaker 4: Hate to even give him this much credit. It's actually 460 00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:24,160 a pretty good painting. I hate saying that, but it 461 00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:26,400 actually is. It's pretty good. 462 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 5: He could copy things reasonably well. I always encouraged him 463 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,960 to paint what was in his head, and he seemed 464 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:37,400 uninterested in doing that for reasons that are probably obvious. 465 00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:41,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, you've got the Seven Dwarfs painting the. 466 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,319 Speaker 5: Seven Dwarfs painting the Don Quixote, and then the third 467 00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:50,960 one is just a weird It's like a seaman captain 468 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,119 of a ship sitting on a dock, looking very contented, 469 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,799 smoking a pipe. Not exactly what you would imagine as 470 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:05,240 on Wayne Gacy's subject matter. But you also wouldn't probably 471 00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:08,759 predict Gasey's answer when I asked him if he had 472 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:14,200 any favorite songs. A guy who's just among the worst 473 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,519 repeat killers in modern American history, you know, his two 474 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,240 favorite songs were. 475 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,519 Speaker 2: Then he said, I can't wait. 476 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,759 Speaker 5: The impossible dream and climb every mountain. 477 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,119 Speaker 2: There's the coyote thing again. 478 00:29:31,279 --> 00:29:35,359 Speaker 6: And I will say one thing, getting back to Kristen's 479 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:41,000 question about takeaways, one thing people don't take note of 480 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,960 often enough, I think is the incredible ambition. 481 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 5: If I can use that word of these people that 482 00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:52,880 they're not people contend to live their life as a 483 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,960 low level con man on the margins of society. They're 484 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,240 after something much bigger. They pair themselves to other killers. 485 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:07,000 There's drunk on the game they play with police. They 486 00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:10,319 love it. As it gets more intense, they love it 487 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,480 more and more until they make a mistake and get captured. 488 00:30:14,079 --> 00:30:17,960 But they're interested in making their mark in some way, 489 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,400 either in terms of notoriety or Thomas Lee Dillon's case, 490 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,200 he would say to me over and over again, Jeff, 491 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,079 have you ever heard of a case like this where 492 00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:32,160 somebody he's at home, he's got a wife and a son, 493 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,640 and he goes to work every day, and he plays 494 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,680 tennis with his friends, and he goes out on the 495 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,799 weekend and picks off people he doesn't know. Has there 496 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,039 ever been a case like that? Is this case unique 497 00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:47,519 in Ohio history? Say? He's very preoccupied with kind of 498 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:49,480 carving out a niche for himself. 499 00:30:50,039 --> 00:30:52,799 Speaker 2: Is there another woman of pride? Would you say when 500 00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:54,559 he's asking these questions? 501 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, we talked about a lot of turned out. He 502 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,079 was a walking encyclopedia of true crime cases. But I 503 00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:04,200 remember when you and I were talking about the Leopold 504 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,440 and Loeb cases. Tmplliant young men near Chicago in the 505 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,039 twenties who set out to commit the perfect crime, and 506 00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:15,920 their mistake was leaving behind a pair of eyeglasses. But 507 00:31:16,559 --> 00:31:21,400 Gasey was very interested in that, and I remember him saying, ah, yeah, 508 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,799 murder as a kind of mental game, I can relate 509 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:29,599 to that. So that was very interesting to him, the 510 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,079 idea of trying to commit a perfect crime doing it 511 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:34,640 as a mental exercise. 512 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,319 Speaker 4: And it sounds the interactions that you had with them 513 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,799 a lot of times you had to have spent time 514 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,720 playing sort of three D mental chess, trying to figure 515 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,599 out what can I say to get the information out 516 00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:50,519 of them? Did it ever feel like you were playing 517 00:31:50,559 --> 00:31:53,519 your own chess match with them through these letters and 518 00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:54,400 these interactions. 519 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,039 Speaker 5: It did, And I wouldn't claim that I felt that 520 00:31:58,119 --> 00:32:01,400 I was a particularly competent chess player when I was 521 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,400 doing that, but yeah, I was definitely thinking in those 522 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:10,160 terms and wondering, how will Gasey, just as an example, 523 00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:14,680 respond if I say this in this way? Is there 524 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,359 a better way to send or to say it so 525 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,000 that he might be more responsive or more open to 526 00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:24,480 having a dialogue about it. So yeah, I often felt 527 00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:25,839 like I was in that position. 528 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,519 Speaker 2: This accomplishments idea that you mentioned a moment ago Jeff, 529 00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:34,599 is so striking because it sounds like a number of 530 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:41,000 these serial killers wanted to accomplish something, but it's so negative. 531 00:32:41,079 --> 00:32:44,519 It isn't like they're going out and doing something that 532 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,079 society would see as worthwhile. The whole thing seems to 533 00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:49,880 be so turned on its head. 534 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 5: Yeah. I often use the phrase kerdl of ambition. It's 535 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,839 like in Gaysey's case, he said, growing up he could 536 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,000 never satisfy his father. He was no good he was 537 00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:05,720 a faggot, he was this and that, but he could 538 00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:09,079 never be good enough in his father's eyes. So he 539 00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:14,119 was very ambitious. But at some point the ambition hurdled 540 00:33:14,359 --> 00:33:19,640 and he very deliberately chose this career as a serial killer. 541 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,000 That's what he was going to do and for as 542 00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:26,640 long as he could operate beneath the radar and get 543 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,440 away with doing things that satisfied his perverted cravings. 544 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 4: Jeff, is there anyone that you have wanted to interview 545 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,519 that you have not yet had a chance to. I 546 00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:44,319 mean you've hit some of the biggies, yeah, Manson, Casey Bundy, 547 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,839 Donald Harvey. Is there anyone that you've wanted to talk 548 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,400 to that you've just never had a chance to reach 549 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:50,720 out to. 550 00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:56,359 Speaker 5: I really can't think of one offhand, Kristen. During my career, 551 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:04,920 I interacted extensively with extraordinarily violent people who committed incredibly 552 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,119 orrid acts. These would be people whose names are unknown 553 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,280 to the majority of your listeners, but still very interesting 554 00:34:14,519 --> 00:34:17,559 people from a psychological point of view. So I felt 555 00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:21,360 that through my work I was generally able to satisfy 556 00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:28,360 my interest in having conversations with violent criminals whose psychology 557 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,880 intrigued me. I will say that at the beginning of 558 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,880 my career, I was very interested in the quote unquote 559 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,400 criminal mind, and so I was very patient. I think 560 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,920 with the people I was asked to evaluate, I became 561 00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:47,000 less patient over the years, and that's just a reality. 562 00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:49,920 I don't know if Jade it is the right word, 563 00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:54,239 but after twenty five years of being lied to and 564 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,599 attempts to manipulate you, I became less patient. So I 565 00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:01,679 would say, by the time I retired after twenty five 566 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,159 years of practice as a forensic psychologist, my interest in 567 00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:11,800 reaching out or trying to have conversations with other killers waned. 568 00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:13,840 It wasn't the same as it had been when I 569 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:14,679 was a young man. 570 00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: Did any of these killers ever reach out to you, 571 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,880 as opposed to you reaching out to them. 572 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,159 Speaker 5: Oh. Quite a few of the death penalty case defendants 573 00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:29,760 whose cases I worked on carried on and continuing correspondence 574 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,159 with me from prison after they were sentenced to death, 575 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,960 which was always interesting to me. It always spoke to 576 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:41,679 something about the kind of relationship that I established. Their 577 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,280 world was pretty dark. They had been sentenced to die, 578 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,960 They were sent to death row, and you would think 579 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,239 the idea of writing Jeff Smolden this defense psychologist would 580 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,639 have been pretty far from their mind. But some of 581 00:35:55,679 --> 00:35:59,039 them did, apparently because they had, I don't know, seen 582 00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:02,519 me as a not a sympathetic person, at least someone 583 00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:06,559 who didn't approach them with an attitude of judgment and 584 00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:10,800 worked hard to draw them out and listen to their story. 585 00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:13,519 But I was always interested in that that quite a 586 00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:15,840 few of them reached out to me from death row. 587 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,039 Speaker 2: Is there ever anyone that was so dark or dangerous 588 00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:23,039 that you were unwilling to engage with them? 589 00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 5: No, I don't think there was. Never. Despite the fact 590 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,840 that some of the people whose cases I was hired 591 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,000 to work on committed just seizing children from their beds 592 00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:37,199 and killing them and sexually assaulting them and the worst 593 00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:41,079 things you can imagine. I never said I can't work 594 00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:45,119 on this case because the facts are too horrible. And 595 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,639 one of the things that I knew this would happen, 596 00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:53,000 and it did early in my career, I'm personally opposed 597 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,440 to the death penalty. I understand the opposite position and 598 00:36:58,119 --> 00:37:02,599 respect it, only opposed to the death penalty, And of 599 00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:05,719 course I knew that would come up during my testimony, 600 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,519 particularly when prosecutors were cross examining me, that you're opposed 601 00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:13,079 to the death penalty, why should we accept any of 602 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:16,679 your findings as anything other than an attempt to save 603 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,159 this guy's life, And then they would typically go down 604 00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:22,599 the road of it. Worked on a case early in 605 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:26,360 my career of a guy who in an emergency room 606 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,719 at the hospital. A woman went to the restroom and 607 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,960 left her purse sitting on a couch while she was 608 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,920 in the restroom. This guy took her wallet, found out 609 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,800 her address, summoned a taxi cab to take him to 610 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,360 her house, went into the house to steal some things, 611 00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:46,519 and a little a child approached him, not knowing who 612 00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:49,559 he was and being too young to really be shocked 613 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,920 by his presence and asked him for a glass of water. 614 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,480 He gave her a glass of water, she went back 615 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,880 to bed, and then he set the house on fire 616 00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:01,719 and killed killed all to the children who were there. 617 00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 2: Gosh. 618 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,199 Speaker 5: And when I would be testifying in these cases and 619 00:38:06,199 --> 00:38:08,519 I would say I was personally opposed to the death penalty, 620 00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:11,840 they would say, what about the case of pee Wee Garner? 621 00:38:12,039 --> 00:38:14,559 And then they would describe the facts of that case, 622 00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:17,880 and they would usually only get to one or two cases, 623 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,440 and the judge would say, Okay, that's enough of that. 624 00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:24,599 We're not here to try and prejudice the jury by 625 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:28,119 bringing up the horrible facts of any case doctor Smalden 626 00:38:28,159 --> 00:38:31,159 has ever worked on. But at that point I would say, no, 627 00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:35,000 the facts of the case never stopped me from working 628 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,719 on the case or didn't change the way I felt 629 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,840 about the death penalty. I worked on some cases with 630 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,119 horrible facts. 631 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 4: I was thinking about asking you about your position on 632 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,679 the death penalty, but I figure we don't want to 633 00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:49,119 get that political at this point in the show. But 634 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,760 it's definitely something I would like to ask about off air. 635 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:55,559 Speaker 5: It came up obviously during my testimony, Jeff. 636 00:38:55,639 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 4: It is a fascinating book, and we can't thank you 637 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,599 enough for take in the time to talk with us 638 00:39:01,639 --> 00:39:04,480 about it. Do you have Is this the only book 639 00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:06,480 that you have in you or are you working on 640 00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:07,199 something else. 641 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,559 Speaker 5: I'm not working on something else right now, but I 642 00:39:10,639 --> 00:39:12,840 might have another book in me. I don't know. I 643 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,599 have some thoughts about it. I haven't begun working on 644 00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:19,079 it in earnest at all if I do. I want 645 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:21,239 to thank both of you for having me on. I 646 00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:24,840 appreciate you having me as a guest and it's been 647 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:25,960 a good talking to you. 648 00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. 649 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:27,760 Speaker 5: Jeff. 650 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 4: The book is That Beast Was Not Me One Forensic Psychologist. 651 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,960 Five Decades of Conversations with Killers by Jeffrey Smalldon and 652 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,400 Jeff Where can people find the book. 653 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 5: It's easy to get on Amazon or from Barnes and Noble, 654 00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:45,320 or from the publisher Black Lie and Publishing. I want 655 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,719 to encourage people to visit my website, which is ww 656 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,519 dot Jeffrey, j E. F F R E Y smoldon 657 00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:01,400 SMA LDN dot com and on on my website, You're 658 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,320 just a click away from being able to obtain the 659 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,480 book through Amazon or Barnes and Noboard's easy. 660 00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 4: Jeff, Thank you so much. For joining us. We appreciate it. 661 00:40:11,159 --> 00:40:13,280 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me that is going to do. 662 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,679 Speaker 4: It for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you 663 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,239 so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 664 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 665 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,880 Another Dog Productions. 666 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,760 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 667 00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:39,519 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 668 00:40:40,159 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 669 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 670 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,599 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 671 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 672 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,360 Murders on Facebook. 673 00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:58,079 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 674 00:40:58,119 --> 00:40:59,760 Bill Thomas five six. 675 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,159 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.