WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:07.919 Out of the street corners. They scream. You knew it 2 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.039 was coming. You've been waiting for this for months, rumor 3 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:14.279 hardened into fear, and now they scream at you, the sirens, 4 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.920 their hysterical wail, tearing through the white noise of the city, 5 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:21.039 and you run. You run to pick up those things 6 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.920 that can never be replaced, a picture of them in 7 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.920 the days when they still loved you, your mother's wedding ring. 8 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:29.640 And then you turn to your shelf of games. You 9 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:38.159 only have room for five. Five Games for Doomsday. Five 10 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:40.320 Games for Doomsday is a show in which board game 11 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:42.840 personalities are thrust into a cabin in the woods to 12 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.719 outrun an oncoming disaster, but can only take five of 13 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:50.039 their games with them. But which will they choose. My 14 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:52.719 guest this week is one half of the most original 15 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.119 publisher in hobby gaming in real life. He's a graduate 16 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.039 in cryptography and a business owner working in deep tech 17 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:02.880 in games. He designs and publishes under Splotter, Spell and 18 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:08.519 the hugely original Dutch publisher responsible for Antiquity Indonesia, food Chain, Magnetum, 19 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.799 and many others. My guest this week is your own Dowman, 20 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:14.560 your own Welcome to the cabin. 21 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:16.079 Thanks for having me. 22 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:18.680 So my first question is is how difficult was it 23 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:20.680 for you to pick the five games take to the cabin. 24 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.799 Well, there's two answers to that question. On the one hand, 25 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.400 it's very difficult to narrow something down to five games 26 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:37.239 and just just pick only five. On the other hand, 27 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.040 gaming for me is always more about people I gained 28 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:43.920 this and having a fun experience together than the actual 29 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:46.359 game that's on the table, if you understand what I mean. 30 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.640 Sure, So let's go back to the beginning. Then, so 31 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:54.680 you studied cryptography. How does a person get into cryptography? 32 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:03.599 Well, that's that's an excellent question. It's essentially by not 33 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:08.840 being able to choose in a way, because cryptography is 34 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:13.599 essentially a branch of mathematics that takes whatever font puzzles 35 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:16.719 can be had from left and right anywhere in mathematics 36 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:21.759 to create a difficult puzzle out of that and build 37 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:23.360 a cryptosystem. 38 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.439 And so what do you do in a cryptography degree. 39 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:35.439 Well built, build secure systems, may make sure stuff can 40 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:40.000 remain secret or authentic or what have you not. 41 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.400 And so then that resulted in you working in deep tech, 42 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:50.439 and I tried to work out what deep tech actually meant. 43 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:52.680 But the problem is your own is I'm not very clever, 44 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:56.159 and certainly anything to do with mathematics is an absolute disaster. 45 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:58.159 So what is deep tech? 46 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.080 Dep tech doesn't really have much to do with mathematics 47 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:09.000 or with the technology itself. I think it's it's more 48 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:15.080 to do with with an investor's horizon, because deep tech 49 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:18.280 is something that will take a long time to pay 50 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:23.479 off any investment. I think that's a good definition to 51 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:23.879 look to. 52 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.159 But what kind of things does deep tech do? What 53 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:29.960 kind of products does it produce? 54 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:35.879 There's typically a lot of semiconductors, so computer chips, things 55 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:40.039 like that. They often take years to design. Then you 56 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:43.560 have to convince people that yours are better than those 57 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:47.960 of somebody else, and before you know it, you're five 58 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:52.960 to ten years down the road. Well, typical investor will 59 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.159 want a return on his money in I don't know, 60 00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:01.639 three years or so. And of course I'm fantasizing slightly 61 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:04.879 here because this is not my world. I like I 62 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.120 like to keep in the technology part of the business 63 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.960 and be clever and not have too much to do 64 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.159 with the money side of things unless I have to. 65 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.680 And you formed your own company, what does it do yees. 66 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.480 So I did that with a bunch of co founders 67 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.720 and essentially what we do, and I think the easiest 68 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:31.680 way to explain it is we create electronic bar code. 69 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.639 So any piece of electronics you can stick a unique barcode, 70 00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:39.720 the thing gets its own unique identity and it can 71 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:44.839 prove its own identity. And that that way you can 72 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:49.600 keep track of the life cycle of your your electronics 73 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:57.279 or the electronic components throughout throughout this whole life, even 74 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:00.560 after you refurbish it, and you still you still know 75 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:06.319 it's life history in a way year or you have 76 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:07.160 a way of tracking that. 77 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.800 Excellent. So your first game then is unsurprising to me 78 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.079 as an eighteen xx and this is eighteen thirty three. 79 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.319 So what is your background with eighteen xx and why 80 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:21.959 do the games appeal to you? 81 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:29.800 Yeah, They've always appealed to me a lot. And what 82 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:34.199 I really wanted to pick an eighteen xx game for 83 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.560 one of my five games. And I think one of 84 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:44.759 the ways it tackles me is that the entanglement it 85 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:49.319 creates between players because it's the type of game that 86 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:52.560 plays in two levels. As a player, or you're an 87 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.160 investor in companies, you have no clue yet what those 88 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.800 companies will do and whoever invested most in a company 89 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.439 to run it in the operation round and make all 90 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:07.120 these decisions. So that game on two levels is fascinating 91 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:07.399 to me. 92 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.040 And then what's special about eighteen thirty three n E. 93 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.040 Well, in a way, it's a little bit of a 94 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:22.399 gamble because I've played prototype a handful of times. The 95 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:27.480 game has not been released yet, should hopefully finally be 96 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:33.480 out end of this year, and I really like what 97 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:35.879 it does. It's kind of the bigger broader to eighteen 98 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:40.920 forty six, which is a game that was distilled down 99 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:45.759 from the roots of eighteen thirty three and E. And 100 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:49.720 so I like what it does, and I hope there's 101 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:54.040 it has enough legs for me to spend a lot 102 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:55.120 of time in the cabin. 103 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:59.720 And so, you know, you look at eighteen xx publishers. 104 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:05.240 I interviewed Lonnie Augla recently, and the eighteen xx community 105 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:09.040 is its own kind of cult within board gaming. Do 106 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.920 you do you kind of feel an affinity with what 107 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.000 you do and what eighteen xx publishers. 108 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:22.560 Do partially partially, uh, but but maybe for the eighteen 109 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:29.519 xx mostly designers, I would say they're designed and more 110 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.319 constrained in that you still want to keep to the 111 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:37.439 eighteen xx guardrails in the way it's almost always about 112 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.040 railway companies and owning shares and debt. There's there's a 113 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.839 few exceptions to that, including our own. 114 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:49.560 One of yours, yeah, which I'll which I'll never play again, 115 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.120 your own because the first time I played it, I won, 116 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:54.600 and so I can never play it again because I've 117 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:55.800 got one hundred percent record. 118 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.279 Well, but I hope you liked it at least did 119 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:04.000 I love it? Yeah, there's there's a really fun story 120 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:08.600 about that part because when we released eighteen thirty BC, 121 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:14.199 there was one of the Norwegian stores kept kept buying 122 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:17.480 copies from us, and at some point we asked, how 123 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:19.720 do you sell this many copies of an eighteen x 124 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:23.199 X game? Because they were the only shop that was 125 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:25.759 selling so much and and and they were saying, oh, 126 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.399 your game is fantastic. It's it's it's relatively short, and 127 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.080 and it teaches more dirty twigs and eighteen thirty has 128 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.799 it's the perfect preparation for someone to learn how to 129 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.840 play eighteen thirty or any of the others. That was 130 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:40.559 really good to hear. 131 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.039 So I want to move on there and talk to you, 132 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.080 talk about you as a gamer rather than a designer. 133 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.559 So how did you discover board games? 134 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.919 Well, I I've I've played them from from childhood onwards essentially. 135 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:01.720 So when I was in high school, I played actually 136 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.000 Allies with with my friends with friends, that was the 137 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:13.080 brand new game at the time. I then also discovered 138 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:16.759 this this little weird male order shop. There was an 139 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.519 efvert in a newspaper or magazine somewhere which was nine 140 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:25.360 and nine games, and and one of the games the 141 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.879 advertise for Civilization. I was like, well, this sounds fun. 142 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:33.679 I'll take a chance and I'll order a copy. It arrived. 143 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:36.799 I never at that point really played it that much 144 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.399 because I didn't have the group for it, and the 145 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.440 group wasn't big enough. But it was a wonderful game 146 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:48.200 to own and and play. When I went to university 147 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.759 I met more people to play with and to play 148 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:54.360 lots of other games with as well. 149 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:58.159 And so what kinds of player are you? Are you 150 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:02.120 a quiet, thoughtful game or are you someone who Are 151 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.200 you someone who plans a million turns ahead? Or are 152 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.600 you more sort of shooting from the hip, shouting at 153 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.559 people across the table? I mean like me. 154 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:16.240 I'm I'm much more quiet's soulful player. I'll probably plan 155 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:23.039 a million terms ahead, including for you. I also remember 156 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:27.679 about what was visit game club here in Ainthoven. We 157 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.720 were playing Game of Titan and and and people. Uh. 158 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.559 For people who don't know the game, it's it's a 159 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.919 fantasy combat game. You have hit, you have hidden armies. 160 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:41.279 You show a little bit of information if you get 161 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:47.120 a new fantasy creature into your army, uh, and and 162 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.600 and how you got it there, and then for the 163 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.399 rest of it is hidden you you move your armies around, 164 00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:00.320 so you don't quite know what's what a miss the 165 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:04.200 other people have. But at some point everyone was just 166 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:08.080 asking me what's in this army of mine? And I 167 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:13.360 was correct ninety percent of the time or so, and so. 168 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.840 When did you think, oh, I like these things, maybe 169 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:18.519 I'd like to make them too. 170 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.200 So that's that was really at the start of university 171 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:27.200 and near the near the start of splot of as well, 172 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.320 even though I didn't join as a partner all the 173 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.759 way at the start, because we we were playing lots 174 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:37.720 of lots of different different games, there were far fewer 175 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:43.159 different games than than there are now. And I think, actually, 176 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.000 well I had met your yours as well, and and 177 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:47.919 other people we. 178 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:49.960 So did you meet him at university? 179 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:56.240 Yes, So we founded a gaming society together to play 180 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.559 board games with with a lot of people. And at 181 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.799 some point we also had like, well there's too few games, 182 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.120 let's create, let's create some of our own. So we 183 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:11.639 had evenings or or days where we would design a 184 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.399 little game of our own. And one one of the 185 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.600 other things is I also played a lot of computer games. 186 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.559 I still play quite a few. One of the games 187 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:28.639 that I enjoyed was low so that Settlers. You you 188 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.240 may have heard of it, And if if you did 189 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:36.080 some arcade things to your computer hooked up to miles, 190 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.799 et cetera, you could play the split screen with two players. 191 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:44.039 And I played it a few times videos and then 192 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:48.919 we both enjoyed that and we were like, but can 193 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:51.080 can we also do this in board game for him? 194 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:55.639 So that's how Roads and Boats was born. And that's 195 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.720 that's actually the first game that that we started working on, 196 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:01.440 even if it's not the first published game from Slaughter. 197 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.120 So your next game then is Age of Craft. Why 198 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:07.519 are you taking this one to the cabin? 199 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:13.759 I But one of the reasons I wanted to have 200 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.559 a diverse set of games. Each age of Craft is 201 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:24.120 wonderful for me because it's a it's it's a dice 202 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:31.559 drafting game, and it's relatively quick and you're building new building, 203 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.399 new buildings, uh with with the dice that you collect, 204 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.480 some building if you'll produce dice, et cetera. So in 205 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:44.240 a in a way, it's what resource building game or 206 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.759 what's what's the current name for the sayings a cube, 207 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:55.519 cube turner, cute pusher, Yeah, and but it's it's it's 208 00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:59.240 a wonderful little quirky little thing. And well I also 209 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:04.159 I also very much nowadays and enjoy Japanese games because 210 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:09.399 they often well they're often relatively small, not not and 211 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.559 not too big, but they can contain it one wonderful 212 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:19.679 little ideas. They're still down to the core because not 213 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:21.840 more fits in the box, and so. 214 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:28.759 More and more over the last decade, Asian games have 215 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:32.559 been becoming a thing, I think culminating really with Bombusters 216 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:36.519 winning Spielder Sharas last year. But is there anything unique 217 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.960 about the games coming out of Asia, do you think? 218 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.480 But in it in in a way it's it's a 219 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:48.960 different scene. There's not as many big publishers. I think 220 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.759 though the big Western publishers are now also scouting a 221 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:58.000 lot for for Japanese designs. So there's much more culture 222 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.919 of the miners producing five to fifty copies of their 223 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.919 own game, and they are very happy with every with 224 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.360 every sale and everyone who plays their game, and if 225 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.600 it doesn't sell, then they're making you. They're make a 226 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:15.000 new one. 227 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.799 So I want to talk now about more about you 228 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.360 and your your your start in design. So the first 229 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.320 game you published, which I which I played the other day, interestingly, 230 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.799 was Web and I was playing it with someone and 231 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:35.200 they were saying, I see the origins of Splotter in 232 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:39.600 this game. What what does Web share with the games 233 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.159 you subsequently designed. 234 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.960 Uh, that's that's that's a hard question. I would say 235 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.399 one of the things that shares is is roudbuilding, because 236 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.480 a lot, if not almost all of our games involves 237 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:02.000 some form of network or routbuilding, and that that is 238 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.840 the core of Web. You're you're building a route from 239 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:09.320 the start or from a start to point two point 240 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:15.399 scoring locations, and a little bit in there is also 241 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:21.159 distilling down what you actually do in a turn, because 242 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:24.360 in Web, you get if you get a few action 243 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.240 points depending on the towel you play, and you and 244 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:30.879 you can spend those on a on a few different options. 245 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.480 We actually played it, uh two months back or so 246 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:40.919 again and we and we were also both seeing yours 247 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.960 was in the same game. We were both thinking along 248 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.840 similar lines, it's like this, this really still is a 249 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.200 blotter game. And we were also both like, if we 250 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.759 would design this now and nowadays, we would do so 251 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:54.399 much different. 252 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.960 And so then when did you decide to form the 253 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.759 company and why did you end up calling it splotter spelling? 254 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:11.680 Forming the company was what was Tomara Harmon and yours 255 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:18.359 started it basically because we we we had a bunch 256 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.559 of games that we that we we all enjoyed ourselves, 257 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.759 and we had shopped them around to a few bigger 258 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:32.839 publishers and they they all very politely but very firmly 259 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:35.079 said no, we don't, we don't want to publish this. 260 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.880 And then at some point we or I should say, 261 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:44.920 Tomara Hammond and simply decided, hey, we know a few 262 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:48.720 other Dutch designers Kraley and side On, why don't we 263 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.279 just rent the boots in Essen and make a few 264 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:57.519 handcrafted games and sell them there. So that's really what 265 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:02.160 what the start of Splotter was. So Web was one 266 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:05.559 of the first games that was was in the mix 267 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:09.279 for the first year. I didn't join as a partner 268 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:15.519 until a few years later. And the name came from 269 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.720 Tomorrow and actually from the logo because Tomara had drawn 270 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:24.079 the logo first. And it's a shortening of spell and 271 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.200 otter because the logo is a little otter, so it's 272 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:28.079 really game otter. 273 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.359 So so the Dutch word for otter is otter. Yes, yes, 274 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:38.279 I know a Dutch word. Now, I'm sure you know 275 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:42.440 more than one. You know web well? Also also I 276 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.559 know web. Yeah, so I'm getting on to that. So 277 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.880 your first big game then was Boss. How did Buss 278 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.039 come about? 279 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.559 I would argue that Roads and Boats was really the 280 00:18:54.599 --> 00:19:01.599 first big game, both because we started designing that earlier 281 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:05.839 and I think it released a year before Bus. Okay actually, 282 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.799 but but Bus really really came out of one of 283 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:19.559 the design sessions where we were fooling around and trying 284 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.920 and trying trying to make a game about moving about 285 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:29.119 delivering passengers to where they want to go, and it 286 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.440 grew from there. End my memory on it is very 287 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:32.359 hazy at the moment. 288 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.680 It's been a while, And so Buss is a game 289 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.480 I first played when the Capstone version came out, and 290 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:43.880 I recently had a gaming weekend and Bus was the 291 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:46.240 first game that was played at the weekend. So it's 292 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.200 a game that came out in nineteen ninety nine and 293 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:50.720 people are still buying it, people are still playing it. 294 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:52.279 Does that surprise you. 295 00:19:54.519 --> 00:20:00.960 In a way? Yes, that it's it's fair to be honest, 296 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:07.119 and an old design, but it's the design still still 297 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.960 holds up quite well, and I think I think it's 298 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.400 still a good game. I still chuckle a little bit 299 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:19.279 because you can. It's it's a game you can play 300 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.160 in two very different ways. And when we designed it, 301 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.920 we mainly played it in the as mean as possible game. 302 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:31.000 So that's why why we put duration of two to 303 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:35.440 three hours on the box. And and we had a 304 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.160 little joke in that we put the score track up 305 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:42.160 to I forget thirty points or so. Well, high score 306 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.720 we had seen was more around seven points, but hey, 307 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:50.160 we we had this wonderful game board all this. All 308 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:53.640 the score islands were named after island games, and we 309 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:58.079 came up with thirty or so of them. But but 310 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.519 then we also got comments like why do you put 311 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.559 two to three hours on the game. We finished this 312 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.720 in thirty to forty five minutes, and the score treg 313 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:12.519 is too short. If you play it extremely friendly, don't 314 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.519 block anyone, Yeah, then you score a lot of points. 315 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.119 I have never played a game of Bus where the 316 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.799 winner has scored more than eight points. 317 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.400 I think it's shame. But that's not the only way 318 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:24.079 to play the game. 319 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.720 Well, I mean, I mean, I know, in this modern 320 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.680 world your own that we should be we should be 321 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.319 nice and open to other people's points of view. But frankly, 322 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.920 that is playing bus role. 323 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.160 I agree. It's also not the way I play Bus. 324 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.559 But so your next game then is something I never 325 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:47.680 knew existed until you sent me the list, and this 326 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.839 is Babylon five Walls. But before we get to the game, 327 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.559 this is one of those TV shows that I've never 328 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.839 seen that everyone always says to me, Oh, you have 329 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:01.039 to see Babylon five. Of those nice anti sci fi shows, 330 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.759 it's by far the best. Why is the TV show 331 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:04.680 so good? 332 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.920 I will join the chorus and say, it's it's really 333 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.640 a wonderful sci fi show. You you you should, you 334 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.480 should really watch it. And I think, apart from the 335 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.799 c g I effects. It's it still holds up extremely 336 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:25.119 well even even now. And for me, it's the TV 337 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.880 show is so good because it's essentially it's a it's 338 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:32.759 a Greek tragedy. It's it's one big story. It's it's 339 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:40.119 it's not episodical. It's almost actually entirely from the first episode, 340 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.160 it's already leading into the end of the show. And 341 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.200 that that shows and the writing is phenomenal, phenomenal for me. 342 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.880 And so how well does the game evoke the show? 343 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.279 It's it evokes the show pretty nicely because the game, 344 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:06.519 because the game has a gazillion different spaceships that that 345 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:11.000 you can use to fight with, and most of at 346 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.160 least the earlier ones appear on the show, and then 347 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.119 later you get to ships that are only mentioned on 348 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.359 the show, and then all the way to fantasy ships 349 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:24.559 that somebody made up at some point. But it's if 350 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.119 if you look at there are let's say, four main 351 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:34.759 alien races, including humans, and two more powerful races, and 352 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.920 those are have very different philosophies, both in the writing 353 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:43.920 on the show how they're acted, and that that comes 354 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:48.240 true in in the spaceships as well. So that's real 355 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.000 that's really fun to see, and it's it's also a 356 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:54.799 game that I played a lot with my girlfriend, so 357 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:59.839 it's it has emotional connections for me. They are two 358 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:04.279 and it's it's it's a fun dice chugger. You wore 359 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.440 a ton of dice to see if if you should 360 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.640 if you hit each other, yes or no. It's it's 361 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.160 essentially more or less starfreet Battles Clone. That's a little 362 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.240 a little bit easier rules wise, but it's great fun. 363 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.720 So now I want to talk more about Splotter. So 364 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:28.720 the the thing about Splotter is they they're a cult 365 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:32.279 publisher and they that the people who are devoted to 366 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.440 Splotter are crazy devoted to Splotter. When did you start 367 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.880 to realize that you were developing a following? 368 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:48.599 Probably after after Indonesia or so, so that that was 369 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:54.359 really the dessert big game, and there was that was 370 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.799 also around what a few years after Board Game Gig 371 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:01.920 really started, and of course Red Games Board was was 372 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:08.720 already quite entigesticals also about our games. But I don't 373 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:15.319 know when when it was really a following or when 374 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.799 that when it became a following, I don't know. 375 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:24.640 And so then if you had to boil it down. 376 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:27.839 I've had this conversation a lot with people in my 377 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.279 game group. What would you say is the character of 378 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:33.279 a Splotter game? 379 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.960 I would say the character? And at least that's how 380 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.319 we try to design new games, is that there's at 381 00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:50.799 least one new and unique mechanism in there. And it's 382 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.119 also a game that's boiled down to it, to its essence, 383 00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:57.799 there's no superfluous parts. 384 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.920 And so then so then when you when you're designing 385 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.640 a game, how the duties split between you and yours? 386 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.319 Do you have regular things that you excel at? Or 387 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.039 is that all mixed up? 388 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:16.960 It's it's it's it's very it's very mixed up. I'm 389 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:21.400 sometimes a bit more analytical, and I I play more 390 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:26.359 different board games from other publishers. Yours almost or only 391 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:31.119 plays our prototypes nowadays. So sometimes Yours comes up with 392 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.759 a great vis a, great idea, like what what what 393 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:39.319 if you use this type of mechanism, And then I'm like, oh, yes, yes, yes, 394 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:42.200 that's a great mechanism that's exactly in this game already. 395 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:44.920 So then we have to steer steer away from that 396 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:52.200 a little bit. And yours is great in let's say 397 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.480 a bit a bit more of the abstract few and 398 00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:00.680 and making sure that there is meaningful player interaction and 399 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:07.000 player entanglement for to call it like that. And I'm 400 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:11.000 often more analytical, and I'm like, if if you do 401 00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:13.559