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Speaker 3: Hey Mark, how are you?
Speaker 4: Oh? Not great?
Speaker 5: A sore throat? I think I'm coming down with cold.
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Speaker 5: Perfect.
Speaker 1: I'd give that a try.
Speaker 3: So we leave sore throats symptoms with a Vogel A
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Speaker 3: available from health stores and pharmacies nationwide.
Speaker 5: Always read the leafless Oh hey, it's your neighbor's Wi
Speaker 5: Fi network that shows up as New England clam Router
Speaker 5: Ali word and we are biting up just enough to
Speaker 5: chew about ancient animal anatomy, particularly little weird teeth. I
Speaker 5: know you never knew that you needed to know about this,
Speaker 5: and it's wild. It's fascinating, I promise you. It's like
Speaker 5: a little corner of the earth in time you'd never
Speaker 5: otherwise imagine unless you are this ologist or one of
Speaker 5: their colleagues, paleontologists who study fossilized prehistoric tissue samples. I
Speaker 5: love this This ologist, an old friend I met on
Speaker 5: the internet on Twitter, ye old Twitter, and someone who
Speaker 5: was always on hand to help identify a bone, who
Speaker 5: popularized the hashtag guess the skull and loves the history
Speaker 5: of bones. They were born in Morocco. They grew up
Speaker 5: in Egypt and moved to Canada as a preteen, then
Speaker 5: did undergrad in pre med at the University of Toronto
Speaker 5: before getting a master's in ecology and evolutionary biology there
Speaker 5: studying animal jawbones. Then they got their PhD at the
Speaker 5: Humboldt University of Berlin and as a postdoc at the
Speaker 5: University of Chicago. Has already published several papers, including the
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five Nature paper The Origin of Vertebrate Teeth
Speaker 5: An Evolution of Sensory exoskeletons. That's like shaking up the
Speaker 5: fossil world. And in addition to being a professional paleontologist
Speaker 5: and an evolutionary biologist, they are also a celebrated science
Speaker 5: communicator who says that they love finding creative ways to
Speaker 5: make science accessible, weird, and wonderful for everyone, which this
Speaker 5: episode does so much. So we're going to get into
Speaker 5: it in a minute, but first, thank you so much
Speaker 5: to patrons of the show who make it possible and
Speaker 5: they send in hilarious and thoughtful questions before we record.
Speaker 5: Thank you to everyone out there supporting the show by
Speaker 5: wearing our merch from ologismerch dot com. As a reminder, also,
Speaker 5: we have a shorter kid friendly episode suitable for all
Speaker 5: ages and classroom safe and those are called somologies Smologies.
Speaker 5: They're available in their own feed wherever you get podcasts,
Speaker 5: you can subscribe. And thanks to everyone who leaves reviews
Speaker 5: of the show and to evidence that I do read
Speaker 5: them all. Thank you to recent reviewer Coco reads Books
Speaker 5: who said that ologies quote can make the most obscure,
Speaker 5: weird topic super interesting. Coco, you have no idea, We're
Speaker 5: about to do it again, Okay. Paleohstology it comes from
Speaker 5: the words for old tissues, and the histo in tissues
Speaker 5: comes from an older Greek word that means web. And
Speaker 5: I was in Chicago a few months ago for our
Speaker 5: friend's wedding, and the afternoon before the rehearsal dinner, I
Speaker 5: romped off to the Field Museum to lurk behind the
Speaker 5: scenes with this ologist I had been admiring from the
Speaker 5: Internet for years. I saw drawers of bones, millions of
Speaker 5: years old skulls, microscopes, and the evidence that changed how
Speaker 5: we think about what grows in our mouths. So prepare
Speaker 5: to drop your jaws as we discuss the origins of teeth,
Speaker 5: why yours hurt sometimes, how they got in your mouth,
Speaker 5: the long debated rumors of extinct species, how particle accelerators
Speaker 5: and paleontology worlds collide, what tools fossil pickers rely on,
Speaker 5: teeny tiny mysteries, busting age, old flame plan and why
Speaker 5: you should hug a chery before it kills you. Plus
Speaker 5: why a catfish might become your overlord. With science communicator, researcher, paleontologist,
Speaker 5: tooth enthusiast and researcher of ancient tissues paleohistologists. Doctor Yara Tardi.
Speaker 4: Fir Sing.
Speaker 5: I'll have you as we could say your first and
Speaker 5: last name in the pronounce you use.
Speaker 4: So I'miara Haredi, doctor Haredi, doctor Jara Haredi. She her pronouns.
Speaker 5: When did you defend your phg I.
Speaker 4: Was officially awarded to me in January twenty twenty two. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I followed you on Twitter for yearss. I know, in
Speaker 5: the beforetimes, in the before times, the rocking, it was Twitter.
Speaker 5: That's where all the scientists gathered.
Speaker 4: It was such a beautiful time.
Speaker 5: It was a beautiful time. I got to know your work,
Speaker 5: and I always loved that whenever someone found a like
Speaker 5: a raccoon skull under a shed, they would tag you like.
Speaker 4: Why is this? I did become like a go to
Speaker 4: bone and tooth person, which was my goal in the
Speaker 4: first place. And honestly that it's so sad because I
Speaker 4: used to suggest like social media as a go to
Speaker 4: thing all the time for even for like young people,
Speaker 4: like young people who are trying to get into science,
Speaker 4: because it was such a good resource. You know, I
Speaker 4: got jobs off of it. I got talking head gigs,
Speaker 4: I got collaborations, like actual science collaborations where someone's like,
Speaker 4: well wait, I have the machine that can do this.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I got friends, I got you know, all that kind
Speaker 4: of stuff. And it was really really beautiful place. Hopefully
Speaker 4: science will come together again somewhere else.
Speaker 5: Guy, So I am excited to catch up with you
Speaker 5: because I wanted to have you on for so long. Now, okay,
Speaker 5: the ology itself. I saw that you have a paper
Speaker 5: histological skeleto chronology that a possibility, paleo dentology. What are
Speaker 5: we thinking? What would you say your ology is?
Speaker 4: I mean when people ask me, like what my main
Speaker 4: method is, it's paleohistology. So I feel like that would
Speaker 4: be a really good one. And paleo hostology is just
Speaker 4: the study of ancient tissues. So histology is just literally
Speaker 4: the study of tissues, and then paleohstology you just make
Speaker 4: that ancient old old, yeah, old old.
Speaker 5: We're talking tissues, but we're also talking teeth. Is a
Speaker 5: tooth a.
Speaker 4: Tissue, so what makes up a tooth? Are the different
Speaker 4: tissues we'll be talking about, So like dentine enamel. Those
Speaker 4: are like words that people have heard from you know,
Speaker 4: your tooth paste commercials. Yeah, so those will be the tissues,
Speaker 4: but the structure as a whole is the tooth.
Speaker 5: And take me back, when did you start getting interested
Speaker 5: in paleontology? Oh?
Speaker 4: Girl, this is this is like I feel like it's
Speaker 4: such an odd story because so many people, especially in paleo,
Speaker 4: they were dino kids and they knew they you know,
Speaker 4: my husband's that way where he's like, I just knew
Speaker 4: that this is at least a direction I wanted to go,
Speaker 4: not paleo particularly, but like art for example, Paleo tends
Speaker 4: to be like that where a lot of people have
Speaker 4: been into it since forever. But I took like a
Speaker 4: couple of wrong turns to even get here. So I
Speaker 4: grew up in the Middle East, and in the Middle
Speaker 4: East you don't really have like a dinosaur phase as
Speaker 4: a kid. It wasn't marketed that way. You know, I'm
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety four, so goodyear. But you know, Jurassic Park
Speaker 4: was just becoming like big, and so it just wasn't
Speaker 4: as big in the Middle East, and it wasn't a thing,
Speaker 4: and I didn't really understand that that could be a career.
Speaker 4: And so then we immigrated to Canada and I started
Speaker 4: going to university and really being interested in science. And
Speaker 4: you know, I am Egyptian, so in our culture you
Speaker 4: can be a few things. You can be a doctor,
Speaker 4: you can be a pharmacist, you can be an engineer,
Speaker 4: or you can be a disappointment. So what I decided
Speaker 4: to go into a science and try to at least
Speaker 4: go into being a doctor. So I studying for med school,
Speaker 4: and man, I just wasn't enjoying it. And the parts
Speaker 4: that I enjoyed were the anatomy, the physiology, how things worked.
Speaker 4: As I was studying for med school, I volunteered in
Speaker 4: a paleo lab and I fell in love with paleontology.
Speaker 4: And yeah, couple of right turns turned left, or a
Speaker 4: couple left turns turned right, and I got into paleo.
Speaker 4: They offered me a master's and I continued from there.
Speaker 5: What was it about it? Was it just the age,
Speaker 5: like the unfathomable age? Was it the structures?
Speaker 4: That's a really good question, and I can actually mark
Speaker 4: the point where it happened. They had me picking fossils,
Speaker 4: and picking fossils is when you just sit on a
Speaker 4: microscope and you're like picking little microscopic like little bones
Speaker 4: from salamanders or teeth, and that was fun, and I
Speaker 4: think the shape of fossils is interesting. And I was
Speaker 4: just kind of mind blown that these were from the Permian,
Speaker 4: so they were two hundred and eighty plus million years old,
Speaker 4: which breaks your brain, yeah, if you are not used
Speaker 4: to those numbers and who is Yeah. But then there
Speaker 4: was a PhD student in the lab at the time
Speaker 4: and he taught me this method calledology and the study
Speaker 4: of tissues. And I didn't understand what that meant at
Speaker 4: the time, because what do you mean tissues survived in
Speaker 4: these two hundred and eighty million plus year old fossils,
Speaker 4: And so we cut them up and you can see
Speaker 4: under the microscope the bone tissue. You can start asking
Speaker 4: different questions like how old does this animal, how did
Speaker 4: it grow? How fast does it grow? What are the
Speaker 4: blood vessels? Like, same thing with teeth, Does it replace
Speaker 4: its teeth? How does it grow its teeth? All that
Speaker 4: was still preserved, and at that point it went from
Speaker 4: like mind blown to like shattered, like gone, because that
Speaker 4: was crazy. You can see cell spaces, you can see
Speaker 4: lines where like you know this animal had a hard winter.
Speaker 4: All that was recorded in the fossils, and at that
Speaker 4: point I was like, oh wait, this might be a
Speaker 4: real signal, actual thing. Well before that, everyone's just photographing
Speaker 4: externally like these fossils and it's not that that isn't science,
Speaker 4: of course it is, but it just wasn't as it
Speaker 4: didn't tickle that little part of my brain of like,
Speaker 4: we can go deeper, we can see how this animal ticked,
Speaker 4: What did its blood vessels do, what did it cells do? Yeah?
Speaker 5: I feel like if you were not a fossil person,
Speaker 5: not a palaeo person, you think the only things that
Speaker 5: maybe survived were the bones, and then you read an
Speaker 5: article where you're like, we know that there were feathers
Speaker 5: in here. Okay, we know there were scales, but I
Speaker 5: either imagined hard bones that survived and everything else rotted
Speaker 5: out or scales something something still hard, something's still hard, Yeah,
Speaker 5: something with a structure to it.
Speaker 4: And that's fair because that's the vast majority of fossils.
Speaker 4: That's like ninety nine point nine percent of fossils are
Speaker 4: actually teeth because enamel is the hardest vertebrate tissue and
Speaker 4: so it survives really well, it's already very crystallized, so
Speaker 4: like how much more crystallized can the Earth make?
Speaker 6: You?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so they.
Speaker 4: Survive really really well, a bone being secondary to that.
Speaker 4: But there are exceptional preservation moments in Earth where the
Speaker 4: right bacteria didn't get to it or the right bacteria
Speaker 4: did get to it, and they preserve feathers, they preferserve skin.
Speaker 4: We now have ichtheosaur lubber people like, have you know,
Speaker 4: actually done isotopic measurements and know that it's fat that
Speaker 4: was preserved in a really interesting chemical way.
Speaker 5: And it is rock. But it takes the impression of
Speaker 5: all those tissues not.
Speaker 7: Always oh yeah, okay, yeah yeah yeah, so fair right,
Speaker 7: that's kind of the old thinking of like, well it's
Speaker 7: just an impression, like the scales for example, like how
Speaker 7: do you know, like dinosaur mummies and stuff.
Speaker 4: Sometimes they are impressions. Sometimes the soft tissue left an
Speaker 4: impression and then disappear. Sometimes the tissue itself gets mineralized.
Speaker 4: So for example, let's think of your skin. There's multiple
Speaker 4: layers in your skin, and some parts of them basically
Speaker 4: get replaced one to one, or they get cross linked
Speaker 4: or get changed in some chemical way that makes them stable,
Speaker 4: so they actually preserve as that tissue that has been
Speaker 4: infused with new chemicals that are stable.
Speaker 5: I didn't realize that soft tissues were even something that
Speaker 5: you could look at. Now, between the soft tissue and
Speaker 5: the teeth, teeth obviously evolved over time. When did things
Speaker 5: start getting teeth?
Speaker 4: So that is basically the question of my life. When
Speaker 4: did things start getting teeth? Or if I can like
Speaker 4: extrapolate that even more, it's like when did things start
Speaker 4: getting mineralized tissues? Okay, so we have this process called
Speaker 4: biomineralization where we or organisms as a whole, will basically
Speaker 4: take minerals from the environment and make a skeleton out
Speaker 4: of them. And we're not the first to do that.
Speaker 4: You know, Sponges have skeletons, they have glass skeletons. Shelled
Speaker 4: organisms like mollusks they have skeletons too. Those shells count
Speaker 4: calcium carbonate skeletons. Arthropods have exoskeletons. So just taking stuff
Speaker 4: from the environment and making your own skeleton, we do
Speaker 4: that too, and so we make bone, we make teeth.
Speaker 4: Our skeletons are made of calcium phosphate. But what's interesting,
Speaker 4: of course, is that at least mineralized specimens fossilize really well.
Speaker 4: And so we can go back in time and be like, Okay,
Speaker 4: what's the first animal to have tooth tissues on it?
Speaker 4: What are the first animal to have bone tissues on it?
Speaker 4: And as far as we know, we kind of trace
Speaker 4: it all the way back, deep, deep, deep in time
Speaker 4: into like the middle or division, So about four hundred
Speaker 4: and fifty five million years ago. Yeah, hard to can sceptualize, right,
Speaker 4: So dinosaurs one extinct twin six sixty five. Yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 4: So and then these bones existed for a very long time.
Speaker 4: Tooth tissues have existed for a very long time. And
Speaker 4: I say tooth tissues because they weren't exactly teeth.
Speaker 5: Were they ever made of cartilage and get harder or
Speaker 5: they were always mineralized. Did animals ever have like kind
Speaker 5: of gummy like bit like kind.
Speaker 4: Of like teeth, I love? Did they just gum things
Speaker 4: to death in the ocean? Yeah? Probably, But also more
Speaker 4: likely is that they were just suction feeding. There was
Speaker 4: some kind of filter feeding that happened early on. So
Speaker 4: the very first tooth like structures to appear in the
Speaker 4: fossil record don't appear in the mouth. They appear on
Speaker 4: the outside of fish. No appear on the outside on
Speaker 4: these like scales and the normal bone, which is partially
Speaker 4: nightmarish until you see how ridiculous these fish look like
Speaker 4: because they're nonsense looking. They look like you don't get
Speaker 4: like a handheld vacuum that you're gonna like clean your
Speaker 4: car with, or they look like that but stick googly
Speaker 4: eyes on the end. No, their mouth is always open
Speaker 4: because they don't have jaws yet. So these little tooth
Speaker 4: like things that are on the outside of these fish,
Speaker 4: we call them adontod's, So that's a word I'm going
Speaker 4: to be using often. So adontoad's are little chunks that
Speaker 4: basically look like a tooth, but they're on the outside
Speaker 4: of the mouth. They're made of enamel and denteene and
Speaker 4: they have a pulp cavity, but they cover the outside
Speaker 4: of fish rather than being the inside of the mouth.
Speaker 5: It sounds like a terratoma, you know, yeah, totally a
Speaker 5: blob item with tease sticking out everywhere. But what did
Speaker 5: they use them for on the outside boom exactly?
Speaker 4: We don't like, So we don't know, or we didn't know.
Speaker 4: We had a couple of hypotheses. Why would you have
Speaker 4: these things on the outside of your body. The very
Speaker 4: first answer was always like protection, Like, oh, you're making
Speaker 4: your hardest to show on the outside of the body.
Speaker 4: You're to make armor. You know, a lot of modern
Speaker 4: fish do that, Things like gar have really hardened scales
Speaker 4: that cover their entire bodies. Makes it harder for things
Speaker 4: to bite you. Yeah, it makes it harder for parasite
Speaker 4: to get attached, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5: Please please see our grology episode about long cute, ancient
Speaker 5: patient poopable nightmare fish with the iconic biologist and punster
Speaker 5: doctor Solomon David, as well as our Terrotology episode about
Speaker 5: the history and culture of monsters in fiction. Because a
Speaker 5: terotoma is a blob that can grow in your body,
Speaker 5: but with fully formed teeth and clots of hair. And
Speaker 5: if you listen to the end of the episode, I'll
Speaker 5: tell you my own personal secret about tarotomas. But yes,
Speaker 5: millions of years before actual teeth.
Speaker 4: And of course the image of like teeth outside the
Speaker 4: mouth is so grotesque. Yeah, but if you think about
Speaker 4: like modern sharks, modern sharks have teeth outside the mouth,
Speaker 4: or they have these odontos they're covered in them. So
Speaker 4: if you put sharks one way, it's smooth, but if
Speaker 4: you put them the other way, it's super rough. That
Speaker 4: sandpaper feeling you get from sharks because they have little,
Speaker 4: tiny teeth all in their skin.
Speaker 5: Those are adontos. Yeah, exactly, hovered in tiny teeth. Mm hmm, yeah,
Speaker 5: I love that. The big teeth in a shark are
Speaker 5: what freak people out, but little do they know they
Speaker 5: have an army of tiny teeth also backing them up.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 5: So the first ones though we're outside the body, when
Speaker 5: did they start merging into the hole?
Speaker 4: Into the hole? Should we go back to the what
Speaker 4: are they four on the outside. So there's a couple
Speaker 4: of floating hypotheses. There's one that's like, okay, they're for
Speaker 4: protection because they're hard on their own and they're on
Speaker 4: the outside, and at that time period middle order of vision,
Speaker 4: there's like big scary things in the ocean, big cephalopo
Speaker 4: that's so big, squid not alloid looking things that would
Speaker 4: eat our little fishy ancestors. There's big sea scorpions that
Speaker 4: are bigger than you or I, that are up to
Speaker 4: like six feet or more. Again, things that would eat
Speaker 4: our little fishy ancestors, So it makes sense that the
Speaker 4: first hypothesis was protection. Another one that's based more on
Speaker 4: sharks is that maybe it helps them with low commotion.
Speaker 4: So when I said these fish are really weird looking,
Speaker 4: they don't have fins yet. So the first ones didn't
Speaker 4: have pectoral fins. They just had a tail. It's like
Speaker 4: a tube, like I said, it's an handheld vacuum with
Speaker 4: eyes on the end and an open mouth. So how
Speaker 4: do they move around in these like turbulent seas? How
Speaker 4: do you make your low emotion more efficient? Sharks they
Speaker 4: use the little spikes in their skin, these little teeth
Speaker 4: on the outside there are down to toads to help
Speaker 4: basically with hydrodynamics, the way that the water flows over
Speaker 4: their body is more efficient because of the little bumps
Speaker 4: all over them. So maybe the early fish did that too,
Speaker 4: So that's one other theory. And then the last theories
Speaker 4: that maybe it has something to do with sensation, that
Speaker 4: maybe because our modern teeth are soundsitive, maybe the outside
Speaker 4: ones are as well.
Speaker 5: How big were these outside ones? Were they teeny or
Speaker 5: were they like I.
Speaker 4: Should just show you. They're in the cabinets behind us.
Speaker 5: Yeah, grab one yeah, yeah, give me one second, okay.
Speaker 5: I just love that. You're like, well, we've got something
Speaker 5: that's millions and millions of years old over here, like
Speaker 5: how I would pull a coffee milk out of a cabinet.
Speaker 5: This is the first time I've ever heard the word
Speaker 5: odonto also, which is exciting. I didn't know that there
Speaker 5: was even a generalized name for them. This hall of
Speaker 5: cabinets is so bonkers.
Speaker 4: So I have a part of a headshield from adults fish.
Speaker 4: And what you can see here all these little bumps,
Speaker 4: each one of them's a little tooth.
Speaker 5: No, it looks adant to It looks kind of like
Speaker 5: a tiny cottage cheese ceiling, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, the popcorniness of it.
Speaker 5: The textures, they're like little tiny beads almost. And now
Speaker 5: you clarified that you have gotten flack here and there
Speaker 5: for calling it a tooth, because a tooth is in
Speaker 5: a jaw. But we're talking broadly to communicate what it's
Speaker 5: an analogous structure, right.
Speaker 4: Or homologous right, okay, because they have the same origin.
Speaker 4: So the reason that we know that these danto's on
Speaker 4: the outside of the mouth are even related to teeth,
Speaker 4: it's because they're made of the same thing. They're made
Speaker 4: of enamel, they're made of dente, and they have pulp cavities.
Speaker 4: They have the same blood supply, So they act very
Speaker 4: similar to our own teeth in the mouth, except that
Speaker 4: they don't replace the same way, and they don't have
Speaker 4: a job in that they.
Speaker 5: Don't And then they started coming merging. They started saying,
Speaker 5: let's get in the hole.
Speaker 4: So how did we get teeth in the mouth, or
Speaker 4: how did you go from Adonto's things that are bumpy
Speaker 4: outside the head to things that I can bite other
Speaker 4: fish with. So that happened along, we assume sometime probably
Speaker 4: the Devonian.
Speaker 5: So the Devonian was a cute little sixty million year
Speaker 5: era from about four hundred and twenty million years ago
Speaker 5: to three hundred and sixty or so million years ago,
Speaker 5: and it was a party. It involved plants growing on land,
Speaker 5: the formation of leaves and seeds, critters slithering out of
Speaker 5: the water into their terrestrial destinies. We had shelled bugs,
Speaker 5: We had fishes with jaws. In fact, it was called
Speaker 5: the Age of fishes. There were even now extinct things
Speaker 5: called placoderms, meaning flat plate fish that looked like they
Speaker 5: were wearing bulletproof vests and helmets. Four hundred million years ago,
Speaker 5: primitive sharks were like, hey, about a million years before
Speaker 5: trees existed, Sharks older than trees also be nice to sharks.
Speaker 5: Trees killed seventy one people in the US in twenty
Speaker 5: twenty three, but unprovoked sharks killed ten globally. Only two
Speaker 5: of those were in the US. Sharks are the eldest
Speaker 5: daughter of our planet.
Speaker 4: And so what we have is a couple of fossils
Speaker 4: that are covered in these little bumps all the way
Speaker 4: across their face and right at the margin of the jaw,
Speaker 4: which had now evolved. You have sharper and pointier down toads,
Speaker 4: and they kind of grade into the mouth, and then
Speaker 4: you have actual pointy things in the mouth. It's not
Speaker 4: ostensibly teeth. We see those probably, So that's one way
Speaker 4: that we think it happened. The other way that we
Speaker 4: think it could have happened is just whatever genetics that
Speaker 4: make up ADNT toad's they got re expressed inside the mouth.
Speaker 5: Oh okay, right, So it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 4: A gradual like actual movement of the structure into the mouth,
Speaker 4: but it can be a re expression. Just hey, let
Speaker 4: me take this toolbox that I use up here, and
Speaker 4: I'm gonna express it in the mouth.
Speaker 5: Instead, kind of like when you get a weird hair
Speaker 5: that pops up somewhere else, you go, what are you doing?
Speaker 4: Yeah, except I don't recommend tweezing auster your tooth. Don't
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 5: Don't do it. Okay. What's the difference between a tusk
Speaker 5: and a tooth? One is ivory? What's ivory?
Speaker 4: Ivory is just denting.
Speaker 5: Ivory is just denty. Does that mean there's no enamel
Speaker 5: or pulp?
Speaker 4: So, tusks are just teeth, but they're fancy teeth in
Speaker 4: that they are usually non replacing, they're usually continuously growing.
Speaker 4: So elephants are the famous tusks. When they're babies, they
Speaker 4: have a little antibity enamel cap on the end of
Speaker 4: their tooth, and then as it keeps growing, that usually
Speaker 4: gets worn away because they just like rub them on trees,
Speaker 4: they dig with them, they fight, and then it ends
Speaker 4: up all being denteen. Yeah, got it? Okay.
Speaker 5: I wonder why they don't keep the enamel since the
Speaker 5: enamel's so hard.
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's just gets worn away after all.
Speaker 4: While also there's a bunch of studies that are really
Speaker 4: interesting that show that elephants use their tusks as like
Speaker 4: sensory things, So they hit them on the ground and
Speaker 4: they like feel vibrations with them. Yeah, so there's some
Speaker 4: kind of feedback that they're not just like whacking around
Speaker 4: big sticks like. There is some feedback. It's a living tissue.
Speaker 5: Right underneath that is the yellowish dentine, which is softer
Speaker 5: than the outside enamel but still hard tissue, and it's
Speaker 5: protecting that little lump of inner pulp in the tooth.
Speaker 5: And dentine is made up of collagen proteins and according
Speaker 5: to a chapter in the journal Engineered Regeneration Banger have
Speaker 5: a book, there are fine tubes arranged in dentine known
Speaker 5: as dentine tubules, and when dentine is exposed, it can
Speaker 5: transfer cold, hot, sour and sweet stimulation from outside to
Speaker 5: the pulp nerve and cause pain and darlings, we owe
Speaker 5: you an odentology teeth episode. We also owe you an
Speaker 5: elephant episode or working on it. Our packadematologist of choice
Speaker 5: has been in the field for like two years. We're
Speaker 5: waiting for her to become available. Please don't yell at me,
Speaker 5: sweet little brats. And this is one thing in a
Speaker 5: recent paper of yours about sensitive teeth, like blame your
Speaker 5: fish ancestors, yep, which I got a ground replaced and
Speaker 5: I can't drink cold wine that side, and it's been
Speaker 5: like two months, and I'm just angry about it, and
Speaker 5: I'm dehydrated and oh no, it's just I guess the
Speaker 5: time mentioned. But I do blame my fish ancestors. I'm
Speaker 5: pissed at them. So a sensory organ on the outside
Speaker 5: also helps them figure out like how cold the water
Speaker 5: is what?
Speaker 4: This is such a good question, but basically we don't know.
Speaker 4: We don't know what they're sensing. Because not only are
Speaker 4: we sensing cold, we can sense sweetness. We can sense
Speaker 4: pressure with our teeth. Some people have sweet sensitivity, so
Speaker 4: they just eat like a candy and they get sensitivity
Speaker 4: from him. I mean, you know you felt like if
Speaker 4: you press really hard on your teeth, you can feel them.
Speaker 5: I know you just pressed on your teeth, I know it. Yeah,
Speaker 5: So our.
Speaker 4: Teeth can sense multiple things. The reason we sense cold
Speaker 4: is later Basically the signal gets sent out, and how
Speaker 4: does it get decoded? Later? Your brain says this signal
Speaker 4: means cold, so that happens down the line that could
Speaker 4: technically be almost anything. So I don't know if these
Speaker 4: early fish had this tissue basically and then downstream they
Speaker 4: had it sense for like, hey, it's warm water or
Speaker 4: cold water, or a change in tides, or something's trying
Speaker 4: to bite me, or the sediment flow change or any
Speaker 4: of that. We don't know exactly what they're sensing, but
Speaker 4: we know that some kind of signal was getting passed.
Speaker 5: And then tell me a little bit about this paper.
Speaker 4: This paper has been the nightmare of the past three years.
Speaker 5: Okay, checks out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's an interesting story because it's a really
Speaker 4: winding pathway, and I think it shows how science is
Speaker 4: not very linear, and sometimes when we set out to
Speaker 4: research one thing or look for one thing, we get
Speaker 4: a much more complicated story, which tends to be a
Speaker 4: lot more interesting. So I basically had pitched to come
Speaker 4: to Chicago to do my work at University of Chicago.
Speaker 4: I pitched, hey, I want to look at the very
Speaker 4: first thing in the fossil record that might have a Danto's,
Speaker 4: that might have bone. Let's figure out where our skeletons
Speaker 4: came from by understanding these early tissues. I want to
Speaker 4: cut it up. I want to scan it. We have
Speaker 4: really good ways to scan things. Now, let's like throw
Speaker 4: everything at this fossil. And the fossil I was really
Speaker 4: interested in was this animal from the latest Cambrian.
Speaker 5: And again, this was three hundred to four hundred million
Speaker 5: years ago. This was hundreds of millions of years before
Speaker 5: Pangaea existed and then broke apart. So we're going way
Speaker 5: way back. And doctor Heridi is like casually in possession
Speaker 5: of teeth of an age that are beyond my capacity
Speaker 5: to fathom. She published a paper in May of twenty
Speaker 5: twenty five in the venerated journal Nature titled the Origin
Speaker 5: of Vertebrate Teeth and Evolution of Sensory Exoskeletons, and it reads,
Speaker 5: the origin of vertebrate teeth has been a long standing
Speaker 5: problem in paleontology. Although teeth evolved from structures in the
Speaker 5: dermal exoskeleton of Jallais vertebrates known as odontod's, their origin
Speaker 5: and function remains obscure. And this paper is groundbreaking And
Speaker 5: that's not a fossil pun but it's already racking up
Speaker 5: citations despite being like just a few months old. So
Speaker 5: we'll get into why later in the episode when we
Speaker 5: know what more words mean, and also it's a juicy
Speaker 5: story and had some fascinating reactions.
Speaker 4: Now, if you remember earlier, I said, the best thing
Speaker 4: is that we know the earliest vertebrates are from the
Speaker 4: Middle Order vision. The just Cambrian is just before the
Speaker 4: order vision. But the problem with these fossils is that
Speaker 4: they're super fragmentary. And when I say super fragmentary, I'm
Speaker 4: saying like tiny, like fits on an end of a toothpick. Tiny.
Speaker 5: Oh dear, yeah, oh dear.
Speaker 4: Is right because when you tell someone I'm a paleontologist
Speaker 4: and then you show them the fossils you work on,
Speaker 4: I make a lot of seven year olds very disappointed
Speaker 4: and fragmentary.
Speaker 5: That's the whole tooth or that is just it burst
Speaker 5: into shards.
Speaker 4: I should show you me.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that.
Speaker 4: I got how they're actually the rock.
Speaker 5: You know what they look like. They look like nerds.
Speaker 5: It's like the smallest nerds and they're in a vial
Speaker 5: you're pouring them out. Those are teeth. Those look like gravel,
Speaker 5: I know, right, Those look like decomposed granite in a
Speaker 5: fancy garden.
Speaker 4: Do you see the little white bumps. Yes, So this
Speaker 4: is part of dermal bone on these ancient fish. So
Speaker 4: I'm basically holding like, what is it, you say, fragments
Speaker 4: of like cereal. They're so tiny, they are.
Speaker 5: Like grape nuts tiny, and we.
Speaker 4: Get really good data from them. Oddly enough, they scan beautifully,
Speaker 4: they section beautifully under a microscope. They're just gorgeous, and
Speaker 4: the enamel is intact. Every one of those little bumps
Speaker 4: is a little dantoed, every single one. So the adanto's
Speaker 4: adhere to the dermal bone and that's how they make
Speaker 4: their armor. Yeah, yeah, And so they're covered in these ones.
Speaker 4: They're really tiny. They're even tinier than the other piece
Speaker 4: that I showed you earlier. And so this is the
Speaker 4: earliest representation of what some of these fragmentary early early
Speaker 4: mineralizing vertebrates look like.
Speaker 5: They're teeny tiny.
Speaker 4: So when someone tells you the fossil record is a problem,
Speaker 4: this is it.
Speaker 5: I mean, you could overlook that so easily. And here
Speaker 5: you have a rock and you've circled some things and
Speaker 5: there are absolutely pin prick, little white lightish structures and
Speaker 5: you've got to go in there. Do you use, ironically
Speaker 5: a dental.
Speaker 4: Tool, Yes, yes, yeah. We use dental tools all the
Speaker 4: time and dental putty to like make molds and stuff.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I'm friends with a lot of dentists.
Speaker 5: I bet, I hope you have a good dentist. I
Speaker 5: can't believe how TEENI is.
Speaker 4: So I just opened another vial and poured out another one,
Speaker 4: just scrap. But this one's supposedly from a different species,
Speaker 4: And so you can kind of tell because the shape
Speaker 4: of the odontodes is different. They're more elongate. They kind
Speaker 4: of look like little rice grains, except smaller than rice grains.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're like wavy almost.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So these grains of rice, these little pebbles, they are
Speaker 5: the proto teeth that covered marine animals four hundred and
Speaker 5: seventy five million years ago in what is now North America,
Speaker 5: and the ones we're looking at the vial of wavy
Speaker 5: rice grains that doctor Herrity painstakingly picked out of a rock.
Speaker 5: So we sat down at the table with this array
Speaker 5: of ancient specimens around us, like top us, they're all.
Speaker 4: Over North America.
Speaker 5: And how big was this animal?
Speaker 4: It's a good question. We don't get many articulated specimens,
Speaker 4: so specimens that are still together and in life form,
Speaker 4: and so it's really hard to estimate. There is one
Speaker 4: partially articulated head which is only a couple of centimeters wide,
Speaker 4: but then there's another one that's like quite a bit bigger.
Speaker 4: So we don't know if what we're catching is a
Speaker 4: baby in an adult. We're really unsure. It's very hard
Speaker 4: to estimate what these earliest earliest ones looked like.
Speaker 5: How many people in the world do.
Speaker 4: This paleo hostology as a whole or looking for this,
Speaker 4: Probably a handful, probably less than ten of us.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you guys don't know WhatsApp thread.
Speaker 4: I don't think. So we kind of meet regularly in
Speaker 4: conferences and stuff, and then everyone kind of approaches it
Speaker 4: a little bit differently. So I'm probably one of the
Speaker 4: only ones that does the histology. A few others do,
Speaker 4: but some people look at it from morphology, so the shapes.
Speaker 4: Some people look at a taxonomy, they look at the
Speaker 4: actual like individual species. But I'm interested in the tissue.
Speaker 4: Why dentin, why enamel, why bone? And I'm interested in
Speaker 4: that because before these guys, there was squishy boys. There's
Speaker 4: all kinds of squishy early vertebrates, and so I'm really
Speaker 4: interested in the jump from gouy things that were our
Speaker 4: vertebraty ancestors chordates, et cetera, to the jump of like
Speaker 4: fully armored fish, because in the fossil record that looks
Speaker 4: like it just happens. There's no transition between fully naked
Speaker 4: goofy thing to mega armored fish. We don't have anything
Speaker 4: in the middle. We don't have a lightly armored fish
Speaker 4: in between.
Speaker 5: Is it unnerving to know that that missing link is
Speaker 5: somewhere in a rock y'all haven't found yet.
Speaker 4: I think that's a hopeful thing because I'm unexcited. I mean,
Speaker 4: that's the direction I want my research to go. That's
Speaker 4: what we're hoping to find. Is still you know, when
Speaker 4: I talk to kids nowadays, they're like, oh, everything's been discovered,
Speaker 4: or you know a lot of people think that about science,
Speaker 4: Oh everything's already been found out, but there's still so
Speaker 4: much mystery, and this is one of them. So there's
Speaker 4: a lot of space for young scientists to come in
Speaker 4: and expand, especially with your technology. There's a lot of
Speaker 4: ways to ask or re ask old questions.
Speaker 5: Are you out in the field wearing khaki garments and
Speaker 5: like a hat in most of the summer, what does
Speaker 5: your field work look like?
Speaker 4: So I was just out in Colorado. We were looking
Speaker 4: at this one road cut. So there's this one area
Speaker 4: they're about to dynamite because they're making this road really wide,
Speaker 4: and that area has this formation called the Harding sandstone,
Speaker 4: which is something that we are interested in because that's
Speaker 4: where we find these little guys from the middle or division.
Speaker 4: So they called me up and they're like, hey, are
Speaker 4: you interested in working on this before we blow it up? Absolutely? Yes, please.
Speaker 4: So we've been out there digging, yeah, the whole the
Speaker 4: whole thing. And we dug a lot in the hillside,
Speaker 4: found a lot of these fragments, a lot of scales.
Speaker 4: We were very lucky, but we're still looking for a
Speaker 4: more complete guy because that's really what we want. I
Speaker 4: want to see what a face of these weirdos looks like, Yeah,
Speaker 4: have a tail? Is it? You know, all that kind
Speaker 4: of stuff. So we weren't able to hit that just yet,
Speaker 4: but we'll go back soon.
Speaker 5: I remember talking to Michael Habib and asking about how
Speaker 5: much it costs for a dino dig and he's like,
Speaker 5: guess And I was like two million, three million. He
Speaker 5: was like ten thousand dollars. Yeah, and I was like
Speaker 5: less than a camri, less than a used camri to
Speaker 5: dig up dinosaurs. Like, is it tough to get an
Speaker 5: inn when you know they're going to dynamite something and
Speaker 5: you're like, oh, there's so much bun stuff in there.
Speaker 5: Do you have to choose? Like I'm gonna put this
Speaker 5: on hold and I'm going to go to the place
Speaker 5: where you're about to dynamite and I'll get to you
Speaker 5: later in the protected lands.
Speaker 4: Totally? Totally, I mean, but that's life, right. You have
Speaker 4: to kind of move things around, reprioritize. So when we
Speaker 4: found out that this area was getting dynamited, we want
Speaker 4: to check it out. Moved a bunch of things aside
Speaker 4: and went checked it out. But like have you said,
Speaker 4: it's so much cheaper than people think. And that's again
Speaker 4: why it's even crazier that it's so hard to get
Speaker 4: science funding, because I mean, my last field work was
Speaker 4: maybe only two three grand to get a few people
Speaker 4: out there for a whole week and dig it up
Speaker 4: and you know, and really get a good survey and
Speaker 4: do a lot of science, a lot of science. But
Speaker 4: it's just hard. It's sometimes hard to scrap that together.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Bond cursed to me, considering that that's like one dinner.
Speaker 5: That's like one dinner in washing take, it's just some
Speaker 5: hopnobbing over champagne somewhere with a lobbyist. I don't know.
Speaker 4: And now I think in many ways scientists are realizing
Speaker 4: that we need donors, We need people who are into it.
Speaker 4: Once you get the specimens out of the ground, they
Speaker 4: need to be prepared. And it's the preparation that can
Speaker 4: be really expensive because you're hiring a highly skilled person
Speaker 4: and paying them fairly, hope, and so that can be
Speaker 4: a lot of hours of manual, skilled labor. And people
Speaker 4: have funded that. People have found like waste to fund that.
Speaker 4: They did that for Sue, Like, how do you fund
Speaker 4: the preparation of this giant yex It's a little bit
Speaker 4: easier to sell a t Rex than it is to
Speaker 4: sell a jallous floppy fish covered in tea. All my
Speaker 4: children are not loved.
Speaker 5: All your gummy boys and your.
Speaker 4: Floopy Yeah yeah, findless things?
Speaker 5: Can I? I know we have so much more to cover,
Speaker 5: but can I cover it with patroon questions?
Speaker 4: Absolutely?
Speaker 5: Okay, let's see what they've asked, but first let's donate
Speaker 5: to a cause. Of yours choosing, and this week she
Speaker 5: selected the Semere Project, which assists families who want to
Speaker 5: return home to Gaza by cleaning the streets of rubble,
Speaker 5: cleaning debris filled structures, renting and fueling heavy machinery, and
Speaker 5: bringing large crews to tend to destroyed neighborhoods and working
Speaker 5: on destroyed water lines. They also have an initiative right
Speaker 5: now called give Warmth to Gaza, protecting families from the
Speaker 5: wind and rain and giving the warmth of care and
Speaker 5: recovery with blankets, tarps, tents and clothing. And for more
Speaker 5: context on gossen displacement and mass deaths from offenses from Israel,
Speaker 5: you can see our Genocideology episode and its recent updated
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Speaker 5: So that donation was on behalf of doctor Jara Haredi,
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Speaker 3: Hey Mark, how are you?
Speaker 5: I'm not great a sore throat. I think I'm coming
Speaker 5: down with cold.
Speaker 3: Oh no, you should try a Vogel sore throat spray.
Speaker 3: It's a natural remedy with echination and sage, I can
Speaker 3: treat symptoms of coals and flus, including sore throats.
Speaker 5: Perfect. I'd give that a triso.
Speaker 3: We leave sore throats symptoms with a Vogel a Quena
Speaker 3: four sore throat spray made from echinaesia and sage herbs
Speaker 3: and designed to reach irritated parts of the throat, available
Speaker 3: from health stores and pharmacies nationwide.
Speaker 5: Always read the leaflet. Okay. Thanks also to patrons of
Speaker 5: the show who submit questions before we record via patreon
Speaker 5: dot com slash ologies. It is hard to select which
Speaker 5: of your strong toothy contenders to start with, but patrons
Speaker 5: Peter and Gregorius of Tomsk had a whale of one,
Speaker 5: as did mouse Paxton Spicy Native. Both wanted to know,
Speaker 5: in Spicy Native's words, bailing when it evolved is whale
Speaker 5: bailing mouse asks considered teeth.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's a very good question.
Speaker 5: What is it? I thought it was keratonized, right, you're right, okay, yeah,
Speaker 5: so not a teeth, not a not an odon. But
Speaker 5: you got it, odonto and you got this. Why can't
Speaker 5: they do.
Speaker 4: It because you're not believing in yourself.
Speaker 5: No, toads, it's fine. I knew at this word.
Speaker 4: We'll get it. We'll get it, guys. No, you're absolutely
Speaker 4: right ten points rally okay, that they're totally chrotonized, and
Speaker 4: so if they're keratenized, they don't have dentine, they don't
Speaker 4: have an animal, and so they're not I did it.
Speaker 5: I did it.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 4: It's so proud of you. Yeah. Okay, So great question
Speaker 4: from your listeners, Bayleen. Is not teeth. It is a
Speaker 4: completely different tissue. And where did it come from? That's
Speaker 4: such a good question. So that's a whole section of
Speaker 4: study because we have fossils that look like they might
Speaker 4: have both. Oh yeah, so bailen whales came from toothy ancestors,
Speaker 4: they came from whales that have teeth, and so at
Speaker 4: some point they started losing one and gaining the other.
Speaker 4: And that is quite like a controversial topic because I
Speaker 4: think there's like one team that's like, no, they lost
Speaker 4: teeth first and then gain baileen, and then another team
Speaker 4: says that there's an overlap there. But yeah, so it
Speaker 4: just depends on how you're interpreting these like really middle fossils.
Speaker 4: Or do you think all that extra vascularity, all that
Speaker 4: extra blood supply around the lip of this certain fossils
Speaker 4: that because of baileen or is that just because maybe
Speaker 4: it had fleshy lips.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, that's a whole area. People don't really know
Speaker 4: exactly how they were Baileyan evolved, but I think people
Speaker 4: are getting closer. There's a lot of really cool new
Speaker 4: fossils in that time period.
Speaker 5: Could baileen because it's carotenized and be sort of like
Speaker 5: hair that's like just hanging out in the mouth.
Speaker 4: I mean, so keratin is incredibly diverse tissue because our
Speaker 4: skin has keraten, our hair has keraten, our nails, so
Speaker 4: it can just be expressed anywhere. Really, I'm not a whaleologist,
Speaker 4: but I think they probably just re expressed that there.
Speaker 4: I don't know what an intermediate would look like. Maybe
Speaker 4: I had like weird mustaches. I don't know, No, like
Speaker 4: a little wororus. That's a really good question.
Speaker 5: We still haven't done a patology episode about whales, but
Speaker 5: we have done one on functional morphology that discusses what
Speaker 5: happens when a whale shows up on a beach dead
Speaker 5: and you have to go over the speed limit with
Speaker 5: a saw and axes in the backseat to get there
Speaker 5: before it explodes, but you get stopped by the cops.
Speaker 5: Mayan Marlowe Planet Sylrraine, Empress of Smallwood Teenas want to
Speaker 5: know Ryan usked? Are bird beaks teeth?
Speaker 4: Ooh, bird beaks are not teeth. That's another keraten structure.
Speaker 4: But birds did have teeth at some point?
Speaker 5: Do they not have teeth?
Speaker 4: Now? No birds have teeth?
Speaker 7: Now?
Speaker 5: Oh, okay, what happened to them?
Speaker 4: Very good question? Don't know?
Speaker 5: Okay, how are they doing stuff?
Speaker 4: They don't chew? Birds?
Speaker 5: Don't chew at all.
Speaker 4: No, Nope. Birds kind of like do a grab and
Speaker 4: swallow because I got the crop. They got a crop.
Speaker 4: They also have like sometimes little keraten horns on their
Speaker 4: tongue that help them push things back into their gullet. Yeah,
Speaker 4: their crop has like all these sole stones sometimes and
Speaker 4: grit and stuff that helps them chew. But they're kind
Speaker 4: of like whole meal eaters really. Yeah, they don't really chew.
Speaker 4: They'll tear things apart, you don't feed their babies and stuff,
Speaker 4: but they won't chew. There is one hypothesis that basically,
Speaker 4: as teeth were lost in birdy ancestors, that's when the
Speaker 4: beak started to like fully envelop because it's kind of
Speaker 4: hard to imagine how beak and teeth coexist, like does
Speaker 4: the tooth keep growing through the beak, How those two
Speaker 4: tissues merge. I'm not saying it can't happen, but we
Speaker 4: just as so far as we know, things that have
Speaker 4: true beaks in the fossil record do not tend to
Speaker 4: have teeth, at least in the on the bird side.
Speaker 4: So birds are dinosaurs. So on the direction of evolving
Speaker 4: to birds, they lost a lot of their teeth and
Speaker 4: did full ramphathica, which is the fancy word for beak.
Speaker 5: So when you get attacked by a goose or killed
Speaker 5: by like a castawery castle casseri casswery, Yeah, they're gumming
Speaker 5: you with keratin sort of.
Speaker 4: So I mean a goose is gonna like you can
Speaker 4: take a goose, Guys, most of you can take a goose. Don't.
Speaker 4: Don't upset the geese, but you can take a goose.
Speaker 4: You'll see like little bumps on the goose's beak and
Speaker 4: that's just keratin, like sticking down. They're not true teeth.
Speaker 4: And a cassewerre is not gonna kill you with this
Speaker 4: beak is gonna kill you with its foot again, another
Speaker 4: keratin structure. Don't mess with castwaorris. You can take a goose,
Speaker 4: but you can't take a castle.
Speaker 5: No, don't do No, don't do it. That's one of
Speaker 5: my biggest fears. Yeah, just getting in it, accidentally getting
Speaker 5: in a situation where we're one on one and knowing
Speaker 5: I'm cooked, because I just know I would give up instantly.
Speaker 5: I just be like a grizzly. I'm like, maybe I
Speaker 5: could boop in the nose, but I can't boop that
Speaker 5: thing in the beak.
Speaker 4: Or you're nuts, you're not.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I would take a cassewri over grizzly.
Speaker 5: This is a good question.
Speaker 4: It's a great question.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna take a poll.
Speaker 4: Would you guys take a castware or would you take
Speaker 4: a grizzly. I don't know. That's a great question.
Speaker 5: I gotta figure out too. If castowarries can fly. I
Speaker 5: don't think they can at all.
Speaker 4: Can't.
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, not even of a tree. Okay, grizzy can
Speaker 5: still Okay.
Speaker 4: Also, castomories are such good dads. The dads do most
Speaker 4: of the caretaking. They're so sweet. Okay, Cuties hang out
Speaker 4: with the castwarris. Yeah, no, not the grizzlies.
Speaker 5: I went down a detour looking for a castwerry expert, because,
Speaker 5: according to my friend Wikipedia, cassawerries are wary of humans,
Speaker 5: but if provoked, they are capable of inflicting serious, even
Speaker 5: fatal injuries. They are known to attack both dogs and people,
Speaker 5: and the cassawery has often been labeled the world's most
Speaker 5: dangerous bird, although in terms of recorded statistics, it says
Speaker 5: it pales in comparison to the common ostrich, which kills
Speaker 5: two to three humans per year in South Africa. Still
Speaker 5: trees and gravity, they're a more vicious team. They will
Speaker 5: snaw and half not even blank on that note. Okay,
Speaker 5: Lars Watts, Howdie Crab Joshua YYZ want to know about
Speaker 5: bone density? Do you think from a histological perspective, do
Speaker 5: you think that hormones were affecting these structures? Like these
Speaker 5: odontodes said it louder, you killed them? I did know
Speaker 5: caffeine today? And I also why don't we do coffee first?
Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't know, and I will also
Speaker 5: I'll plead also that I'm on Pacific time. But hormones
Speaker 5: affecting bone density, tooth density.
Speaker 4: Bone density absolutely so definitely our hormones affect how most
Speaker 4: of our skeleton grows, but particularly our bones. This is
Speaker 4: why women are very susceptible in menopause to losing bone density.
Speaker 4: We start to loose some of our estrogen and that
Speaker 4: helps us maintain bone density. Basically tells our bone cells,
Speaker 4: these things called osteocytes, to be more sensitive in certain
Speaker 4: ways so that they can help other cells communicate. So
Speaker 4: a little bit of bone bio one oh one. But
Speaker 4: basically within our bones. There's really just the three cell types.
Speaker 4: There's the osteoclasts, the bone destroyers, osteoblasts the bone builders,
Speaker 4: and then osteocytes the ones that live and maintain inside
Speaker 4: the bone.
Speaker 5: So we have an osteology episode all about bones and
Speaker 5: donating yourself to a body farm. But I'm gonna blame
Speaker 5: two hours of jet lag for my memory soggy spots,
Speaker 5: and I love a refresher.
Speaker 4: But when we lose hormones, or certain types of hormones,
Speaker 4: it messes with the way that they communicate, and so
Speaker 4: all of a sudden you have more osteoclast activity, so
Speaker 4: removing too much bone and not enough building of bone.
Speaker 4: What happens when that we get osteoporosis. Yeah, and so totally,
Speaker 4: hormones play a huge role in how we maintain our skeleton,
Speaker 4: particularly bone density. This is also a problem when it
Speaker 4: comes to space travel, because we lose bone density if
Speaker 4: we're not actually working out or getting gravity acting upon
Speaker 4: our skeletons. So that's how the twin experiment where they
Speaker 4: sent one, yeah, one astronaut space and left his twin
Speaker 4: on Earth came back and I think he had lost
Speaker 4: some crazy amount of bone den City and it takes
Speaker 4: them a certain number of months to gain that back.
Speaker 5: Just to side note, we talked about these twins and
Speaker 5: the one on Earth being like you can take them
Speaker 5: of blood and poop for science, but I'd draw the
Speaker 5: line at eating rehydrated steak, and that was in the
Speaker 5: Astrobramatology episode about space food. But for more on this
Speaker 5: parent trap of space data, you can see the NASA
Speaker 5: Twins Study, a multi dimensional analysis of a year long
Speaker 5: human space flight. For the record, I have never looked
Speaker 5: at this paper. I've never seen so many co authors
Speaker 5: on one study. I squinted counting eighty four of them,
Speaker 5: and I might be one or two off because I
Speaker 5: counted so long that I got bored and I started
Speaker 5: thinking about hockey players kissing. But yeah, this NASA Twin
Speaker 5: study about twin brothers, Scott and Mark Kelly, both astronauts.
Speaker 5: Mark Kelly, yes, an astronaut and an Arizona State senator,
Speaker 5: husband to Gabby Giffords. It involved physiological, telemetric, transcriptomic, epigenetic, protemic, metabolic, immune, microbiomic, cardiovascular,
Speaker 5: vision related and cognitive data that were collected over twenty
Speaker 5: five months, and it found changes in telomere length and epigenetics,
Speaker 5: changes in gut biome, body weight, carotid artery dimensions, retinal thickness, inflammation, cytokines,
Speaker 5: cognitive performance, and bone density which dropped several percentage points.
Speaker 5: But yes, many things can break down that scaffolding in
Speaker 5: your body. And then is the same thing true for
Speaker 5: pressure with teeth? Does enamel wear down or do your
Speaker 5: teeth say, hey, we've got a lot of pressure, I
Speaker 5: better build this up.
Speaker 4: So unfortunately, our teeth don't react the same way because
Speaker 4: they don't have osteocydes, they don't usually have cells inside
Speaker 4: that will adapt to the change in real time. There's
Speaker 4: small adaptations, especially with our teeth human teeth that we
Speaker 4: have things like secondary denteene. We have a slight remineralization
Speaker 4: of our enamel, so you know, if you have really
Speaker 4: weak enamel, there are ways to make it stronger, floride
Speaker 4: being one of them, and then dentee and if there's damage,
Speaker 4: you'll have secondary denteene starts to deposit and like kind
Speaker 4: of block the whole from forming. That's kind of how
Speaker 4: our teeth try to react to cavities because you really
Speaker 4: don't want to hold right to your nerves which are
Speaker 4: in your pulp cavity, which is why your teeth hurt.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, oof, we need a tooth episode, I know,
Speaker 5: but your pod mother recently found out that his tooth
Speaker 5: clenching at night has worn down his enamel and contributed
Speaker 5: to cavities. And he's pissed and now he has to
Speaker 5: wear a nightguard. But he can't really talk with it
Speaker 5: yet because you just got it. So in bed, he'll
Speaker 5: turn out the light to go to sleep, but then
Speaker 5: he thinks of something else to tell me, and I
Speaker 5: can't understand a word he says. But it's spitty and
Speaker 5: it's charming. Mouth guarters, you're not alone, you're doing so.
Speaker 5: Patrons asking about historical tooth decay Katie Elmer, mm A
Speaker 5: t rot Weisswaffle hand the Bee, Kim Greneer era Victor
Speaker 5: Empress of Smallwood, Mariah Waltzer, and Dellie Dames. This is
Speaker 5: a good question. Also, everyone, you gotta brush your kiddies
Speaker 5: and doggies teeth. We love their disgusting devil breath, but
Speaker 5: you got to get in there, rub them with a
Speaker 5: little veterinary toothpaste and a brush or a rag. Tell
Speaker 5: them they're precious and perfect. Babies. If you have a
Speaker 5: pet shark, you might have to brush them less because
Speaker 5: they are sharp, and also because their teeth are like
Speaker 5: on a subscription model, they just keep showing up. They
Speaker 5: lose on average a tooth a week. Patron's envious of
Speaker 5: this adapt patient had questions, including regular who asked, why
Speaker 5: do we only get two sets of teeth in our
Speaker 5: life while other animals get infinite teeth? Actually? Is that true?
Speaker 5: Or flimflam? They ask, as well as Lori Fulford Win,
Speaker 5: Rebecca Smith, you can walk her, Naomi Jane Alyssa McElroy, Kats,
Speaker 5: Alexandra Rambo, Sheila Mariita Honeypye, Tom Bowdery, Catherine b First
Speaker 5: time question askers Arianna Rose, Planet Si Lorrain and Lisa Gorman,
Speaker 5: who asked, it seems like a lot of us mammals
Speaker 5: in general could benefit from the ability to grow some spears, okay,
Speaker 5: losing teeth lunar crumpet and others. Why do some animals
Speaker 5: lose teeth and replace them like sharks. I see people
Speaker 5: in Florida, their beaches are lousy with these shark teeth,
Speaker 5: and I'm like, where are you getting these?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 5: Who are these sharks? Just shedding them, you know, like
Speaker 5: cigarette butts. Why do some animals pop them out? Also
Speaker 5: those X rays of children that have a whole row
Speaker 5: of teeth in the way, those are real, Oh jeez,
Speaker 5: oh yeah, oh jeez. So how come why do some
Speaker 5: of us retain our teeth for as long as we
Speaker 5: can and others are just like popping them off?
Speaker 4: So great question. Tooth replacement or constant truth replacement is
Speaker 4: the original state. Once tooth replacement evolved, almost everything kept
Speaker 4: replacing its teeth. Oh so, salamanders replace their teeth, reptiles
Speaker 4: replace their teeth, everything, everything until mammals. And there's a
Speaker 4: couple of exceptions of course, with full tooth loss, Like
Speaker 4: birds don't replace their teeth because they don't have any.
Speaker 4: So mammals basically reduce that to a really extreme extent
Speaker 4: where we only have the two sets, the baby teeth
Speaker 4: and our adult teeth. Right, So the baby teeth are
Speaker 4: what you're seeing in those baby x rays.
Speaker 5: Yeah, horrifying, terrifying.
Speaker 4: But they're just like in weight, right, So they're like
Speaker 4: a full adult tooth made right above the or below
Speaker 4: the current baby tooth, and it's just like lying in
Speaker 4: wait and like waiting to erupt.
Speaker 5: Many patrons had teeth on the brain, including mycologist Janet R.
Speaker 5: Damn Camacho, Emily Staffer, Talia Dunyak Crh, and Nancy K. Clark.
Speaker 5: And yeah, by the age of three, most tiny people
Speaker 5: have all twenty of their baby teeth, with thirty two
Speaker 5: hanging out in a jaw condominium upstairs. And if you've
Speaker 5: I've seen X rays of baby heads or medical specimens,
Speaker 5: rest in peace. It looks like a lotus pod. And
Speaker 5: if you don't have natal osteophobia, then your tripophobia of
Speaker 5: holes will definitely kick in round nubbins housed in holes.
Speaker 5: As your Internet father, dad word, I do not recommend
Speaker 5: googling baby skulls in general, but definitely not in a
Speaker 5: packed cafe on a Sunday afternoon full of Macha drinkers.
Speaker 5: I wanted to keep looking. I also had to close
Speaker 5: the tab. But yeah, summoning the tooth fairy.
Speaker 4: And that's what we have. Most mammals have just reduced
Speaker 4: it down to just the two stages, milk teeth and
Speaker 4: adult teeth. There's one theory that it's because of chewing.
Speaker 4: So our molars are shaped very specifically to fit together right,
Speaker 4: and they perfectly fit together. And it's like it's called
Speaker 4: precise occlusion. Fitting together really well, really hard to do
Speaker 4: if you're constantly changing your teeth. Oh yeah, so how
Speaker 4: do you have that consistent fitting together if that's not
Speaker 4: the case, And so we think that maybe by evolving
Speaker 4: one they had to lose the other potentially, But yeah, mammals,
Speaker 4: basically we just have the two. But people are working
Speaker 4: on it, right, because we study sharks, We study all
Speaker 4: kinds of animals that replace their teeth constantly. Because wouldn't
Speaker 4: it be nice instead of getting crowns, they just pulled
Speaker 4: that one out, put like a little stem cell in plant, right,
Speaker 4: and then have that grow And that's now in progress.
Speaker 4: People are doing that with mice. They were able to
Speaker 4: implant a tooth bud and grow a new tooth. It
Speaker 4: was shaped a little funky, but it did well. It
Speaker 4: still did well.
Speaker 5: They're like, it's a prototype. It's I'll get it next time.
Speaker 5: It's fine, I'll get it next time.
Speaker 4: And the thing is like, teeth are really complicated, especially ours.
Speaker 4: This is why implants don't work very well. They still work, guys,
Speaker 4: it's better than nothing, but they don't work very well
Speaker 4: because they don't have the nerve and the blood supply
Speaker 4: and the pressure sensitivity anymore. So sometimes people bite too hard,
Speaker 4: break their implants, et cetera. So yeah, it's just it's
Speaker 4: never as good as your original organ, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you mentioned salamanders.
Speaker 4: Hit me.
Speaker 5: Salamanders have teeth.
Speaker 4: Salamanders have teeth, little nubbuns, tiny too, tiny, tiny little
Speaker 4: things eating bugs, eating ants, mostly worms. They're kind of
Speaker 4: like just velcar on the inside of the mouth, so
Speaker 4: everything goes the right way and not out the other
Speaker 4: way because like salamanders also don't have a secondary palette,
Speaker 4: so the way they're breathing, the way they're eating, all
Speaker 4: of that is just in one area. So you really
Speaker 4: want your worm to go down, yes, not back up? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 5: What about snails have those like raspers, what are they
Speaker 5: called radulas?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Are those teeth?
Speaker 4: They are not teeth. Okay, we found the boundary and
Speaker 4: how do we know they're not teeth. They're not made
Speaker 4: of the same stuff. They're actually keraten It's like a
Speaker 4: little pad of velcro kind of thing, little hooks that's carotenized. Yeah,
Speaker 4: not not adontoad's, which are a vertebrate only thing. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so true, teeth and adontod's in large startup vertebrates. No
Speaker 4: invertebrates have them. They have similar things. I mean, things
Speaker 4: have gotta.
Speaker 5: Eat, right, but just not an actual addanta. Going back
Speaker 5: to replacing teeth, like sharks replacing teeth, it seems like
Speaker 5: that would be really expensive to use those minerals to regrow, right,
Speaker 5: but it was worth it because what they would chip
Speaker 5: off a lot.
Speaker 4: We assume. So that's a really yeah, that's a very
Speaker 4: good point. So why replace so many teeth because, like
Speaker 4: you said, it's super expensive. Also, maintaining bone is really expensive.
Speaker 4: So we always assume that something that is hanging around
Speaker 4: or has been successful through this much time has to
Speaker 4: be helpful. And the assumption is that, yeah, they're probably
Speaker 4: chipping their teeth so much. Also, mammals have really thick enamel.
Speaker 4: We have really thick enamel, but most reptiles fish have
Speaker 4: pretty thin enamel comparatively, And maybe that's just because they're
Speaker 4: making them and tossing them, you know, or the reverse
Speaker 4: is true. Because they have thin enamel, then they need
Speaker 4: high replacement.
Speaker 5: Do crocodiles and alligators those their teeth, Oh yeah, they do.
Speaker 4: They constantly replace their teeth contant don't.
Speaker 5: Do you find them in fossilized Oh.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, they make up like chunks of the
Speaker 4: freshwater fossil record. What about dinosaurs replace their teeth constantly.
Speaker 5: Really because mammals hang on to them. Do you find
Speaker 5: a lot of dinosaur teeth fossilized?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh yeah, tons, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: Where do people ever just come across them if you're
Speaker 5: in the.
Speaker 4: Right place, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: If you find a dinosaur tooth, you should call a
Speaker 5: paleontologist there, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, always call somebody or at least look it up,
Speaker 4: see where you're at, especially if you're like anywhere near
Speaker 4: public lands. You shouldn't probably be picking them up in
Speaker 4: the first place because the context is part of the science.
Speaker 4: So like where you found it, what's arounded, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Not all teeth are super valuable to science. So like
Speaker 4: a lot of shark teeth, we have just tons, yeah,
Speaker 4: some some dinosaur teeth. So like I was working, I
Speaker 4: was in Alberta for a bit and we found a
Speaker 4: whole hadrosaur dental battery and hadrosaurs merge a bunch of
Speaker 4: these really thin leaf shaped teeth into like a brick
Speaker 4: and then chew with the brick. Ooh, yeah, because they
Speaker 4: want to like chew a lot of plant matter with
Speaker 4: multiple tissues at once, right, So they use multiple teeth
Speaker 4: that wants to kind of chew and grind against this
Speaker 4: big brick of teeth, And so you find them all
Speaker 4: over the place because they fall apart when the animal's
Speaker 4: dead because they were held together with ligaments.
Speaker 5: What about deer teeth and herbivore teeth.
Speaker 4: So herbivore teeth are really weird, particularly deer and what
Speaker 4: is it, horses and camel, anything that eats a lot
Speaker 4: of abrasive material. They use something called cementum as how
Speaker 4: they attach their teeth. They basically chew on multiple tissues
Speaker 4: at all times. If you've ever seen like a deer tooth,
Speaker 4: it's like wavy at the top with like little pits.
Speaker 4: They want these cusps to be pointy and they want
Speaker 4: the pits to be deeper. And how you do that
Speaker 4: is have some harder tissues and softer tissues and so
Speaker 4: that way you're like basically making a greater for the
Speaker 4: plant matter.
Speaker 5: Yeah, do they replace those teeth or no?
Speaker 4: Those same as us. They're mammals, but.
Speaker 5: Rats and otherworphs do theirs. They keep growing to sharpen, right.
Speaker 4: So only their incisors, and lagomorphs and rodents are very
Speaker 4: special in that they don't replace their incisors the front
Speaker 4: two like yellow teeth, but they grind them against each
Speaker 4: other to sharpen. So like people who have rabbits as
Speaker 4: pets will realize that, like, if I don't give them
Speaker 4: enough stuff to chew, now I have to trim their teeth,
Speaker 4: which is such a wild thing to think about, I know, right,
Speaker 4: But that's because they're ever growing and they'll actually like
Speaker 4: curl and like grow into their own pallets if they're
Speaker 4: not taken care of properly. But yeah, that's ever growing teeth.
Speaker 4: But the rest of their teeth, one set of milk teeth,
Speaker 4: one set of battle teeth. That's it.
Speaker 5: I wonder if they ever swallow them when they fall out?
Speaker 4: Oh sure, yeah yeah, dogs and cats do too. Yeah
Speaker 4: pop mount yeah, yeah, comes right there. And if you
Speaker 4: want to hear fun fact, yeah, rodent teeth, lag morph teeth.
Speaker 4: Why are they yellow?
Speaker 5: Different material, more dentine, iron, iron in their enamel, so
Speaker 5: much stronger, so much stronger. I love that they're not
Speaker 5: just dirty.
Speaker 4: You know. I'm so happy they're taking care of their
Speaker 4: dental height. Yeah, but it's just an adaptation.
Speaker 5: It's not just turmeric, you know.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's how beaver's like get through giant trees
Speaker 4: without destroying their enamel. They have it on one side
Speaker 4: and so it's just like it keeps that really sharp edge.
Speaker 5: Just a bevel. So yes, we have an excellent urban
Speaker 5: rodentology episode with doctor Bobby Corrigan all about sewer rats
Speaker 5: and why you should love them in it, I cry,
Speaker 5: as well as a servitology episode about deer and a
Speaker 5: beaver episode about how and why rodent teeth are that
Speaker 5: striking sunset color and how one side of the tooth
Speaker 5: is iron enriched and tougher leading to a kind of
Speaker 5: shive sharpening happening on those two front incisors. And for
Speaker 5: patrons thirs staying for more knowledge, like Sonia Bird, Alexander Rambo,
Speaker 5: Lulani and Chris Curious, please report to the beaver and
Speaker 5: the rat episodes at once, So many good questions about
Speaker 5: a topic that none of us knew existed until today.
Speaker 4: Let me see, I can't believe you're doing this without caffeine.
Speaker 5: Absolute champ painful I'm not gonna lie to you, Okay,
Speaker 5: just a quick dip into other animal teeth. Hats off
Speaker 5: to patron Shawn who prompted me to learn that marsupials
Speaker 5: are packing forty to fifty teeth, with the extinct marsupial
Speaker 5: or pouch lion by the colio having weirdo beautiful rodent
Speaker 5: like front thangs. Okay. Sean asked, why are marsupial teeth
Speaker 5: so much different for most creatures we know? Do you
Speaker 5: find a lot of different teeth in areas like Australia
Speaker 5: that's just its own continent and the b asked, it
Speaker 5: seems that a common problem with human teeth is overcrowding.
Speaker 5: Is this specific to humans or is there evidence of
Speaker 5: this and other animals? Like do they have any wonky
Speaker 5: occlusion just like on accident?
Speaker 4: I mean yeah, pathologies happen usually if something happened in
Speaker 4: childhood or depending on how poorly we bred them. See
Speaker 4: bulldog skull, see chihuahua skull, see a lot of domestic
Speaker 4: dogs and persian cats. They just lose space and the
Speaker 4: genetics to make the teeth are still there, and so
Speaker 4: the teeth keep being made.
Speaker 7: I'm not supposed to do with these, But why do we.
Speaker 4: Have wonky teeth? Right? One thought, there's a few studies
Speaker 4: on this because most animals don't have overcrowding. Most animals
Speaker 4: have enough space for their teeth, and that's been selected
Speaker 4: for pretty intensely, right, you got to eat well, That
Speaker 4: selection pressure is probably lifted for us one because we're
Speaker 4: social animals. We feed each other, you know, we make
Speaker 4: mushy food for like elders who do not have teeth anymore.
Speaker 4: There's ways that we adapt beyond needing perfect occlusion. The
Speaker 4: other thought is that we've, through evolutionary time, have softened
Speaker 4: our diets, and having a really hard diet helps you
Speaker 4: grow your jaw bigger and so like, basically your jaw
Speaker 4: growers properly, has enough space and your teeth are not overcrowded.
Speaker 4: You know, people will counter that with but I don't
Speaker 4: want to give my baby like a whole bone to
Speaker 4: chew on, which fair, I mean, choking hazards are not great,
Speaker 4: but look how perfect their jaw could have been. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it's thought to be potentially because of general softening of
Speaker 4: our diet.
Speaker 5: And with dogs, when you give them bones to chew
Speaker 5: cooked no good because it's splinters, right, Are you cooking
Speaker 5: out these binding collagen fibers? Is that what's going on?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you're weakening, You're weakening the mineral bonds as well,
Speaker 4: so it just storts of like fragment. Also, like if
Speaker 4: you see a bone out in the sun, if you're
Speaker 4: like walking in the desert or whatever, it looks like
Speaker 4: almost wood. You're like, yeah, fragments so much. Yeah, it's
Speaker 4: the same thing. It's the heat impact just slowly. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And we see it on the fossil record too. That's
Speaker 4: how we know if something's been buried right away or
Speaker 4: sat out in the sun for a long time and
Speaker 4: then got buried. So you can see like literally dinosaur
Speaker 4: bones that are like fragmented and look like wood.
Speaker 5: Ooh. I never thought about a skeleton being fossilized. I
Speaker 5: always just thought something just ate shit in the mud
Speaker 5: and then it was game over.
Speaker 4: No, I mean things die there and then get flooded
Speaker 4: over or buried.
Speaker 5: Secondarily, yeah, okay, Danny the dino, because it's a dino. Well,
Speaker 5: last Patreon question, what unexpected information can we gain from
Speaker 5: fossilized teeth beyond diet? But I want to know diet
Speaker 5: wise are you learning a lot about what they ate
Speaker 5: just based on their nubbins or their fangs.
Speaker 4: So on diet, we know a bunch about what animals
Speaker 4: ate based on their teeth in general, just morphologies. So
Speaker 4: people will actually quantify the shape and then be able
Speaker 4: to be like, Okay, this is best for this kind
Speaker 4: of diet or this kind of diet. But also especially
Speaker 4: more recently, people are taking the enamel analyzing the isotopes
Speaker 4: in there, so maybe you can explain what isotopes are.
Speaker 5: That is all I'm here for. So, yeah, isotopes are atoms.
Speaker 5: They're kind of like siblings of the same element. So
Speaker 5: every element on the periodic table has to have an
Speaker 5: equal number of electrons the very lightweight little orbiters around
Speaker 5: the center cluster or nucleus, and the nucleus is made
Speaker 5: of positively charged protons and neutral charged neutrons, and those
Speaker 5: are the same weight. They're much heavier than the electrons,
Speaker 5: so the number of electrons and protons have to be
Speaker 5: the same. But an isotope is the same element, but
Speaker 5: kind of like the sister, it has a different amount
Speaker 5: of protons and neutrons, so its mass is a little different.
Speaker 5: As an isotope form and an isotope can emit radiation
Speaker 5: or not, but they are helpful in paleodetective work.
Speaker 4: But basically they can find isotopes that link to diet.
Speaker 4: So now we know that some dinosaurs we're eating like
Speaker 4: C four plants or like this type of plant, or
Speaker 4: we know they ate more seafood because that has a
Speaker 4: different type of isotope. So teeth shape wise will inform
Speaker 4: diet chemistry wise will also inform diet.
Speaker 5: Super interesting, and this is in their tissues and not
Speaker 5: just like plaque around it.
Speaker 4: Correct, Yeah, it's the actual enamel that holds onto it
Speaker 4: because basically these animals are replacing their teeth all the time, right,
Speaker 4: so constantly, whatever they're eating is what's getting incorporated into
Speaker 4: their tissues and then expressed in their enamel as they
Speaker 4: make new enamel. So it's kind of like a continuous
Speaker 4: dental history, continuous chemical history.
Speaker 5: You are what you eat, Okay. The most annoying thing
Speaker 5: about your job I'm getting, can I guess? Yeah? I'm
Speaker 5: so curious funding funding or do you get emails from
Speaker 5: people who tried to convince you that dinosaurs didn't exist?
Speaker 4: I don't, although my last my most recent paper did
Speaker 4: get covered in a creationist article.
Speaker 5: What did they say?
Speaker 4: Well, they said that I needed Jesus. They said that
Speaker 4: what is it? Teeth have been around forever and therefore
Speaker 4: my study was wrong and I hadn't considered this and that,
Speaker 4: and that I needed Jesus, which is pretty funny. I
Speaker 4: think it was like one of the only citations we've
Speaker 4: gone for the paper so far. But yeah, well it's
Speaker 4: a pretty new paper, but it was hilarious. It was
Speaker 4: pretty good. I can send it to you.
Speaker 5: It's hilarious, dear, Okay, Let's dive into her twenty twenty
Speaker 5: five Nature paper once again titled the Origin of Vertebrate
Speaker 5: teeth An Evolution of sensory exis Skeletons, in which lead
Speaker 5: author doctor Yara Haridi establishes quote here. To resolve controversy
Speaker 5: and understand the origin of dental tissues, we synchrotron scanned
Speaker 5: diverse extinct and extant vertebrate and invertebrate exis skeletons. We
Speaker 5: find that the tubules of a Natalypsis have been misidentified
Speaker 5: as dentine tubules and instead represent a glasspited arthropod sensory
Speaker 5: sensilla structures. What does all that mean, let's gossip about it.
Speaker 4: And so one of the things I really wanted to
Speaker 4: look at was this early fish from the Cambrand thing,
Speaker 4: and so people found it and thought that this was
Speaker 4: the earliest vertebrate, and I was like, great, we're gonna
Speaker 4: image this thing with this all this new methods that
Speaker 4: we have. So I now use a particle accelerator to
Speaker 4: image fossils. No I've heard about those. No, Okay, So
Speaker 4: synchotrons are these rings that you accelerate an electron in
Speaker 4: and then you basically shoot X rays from the bending
Speaker 4: of those two fossils, and it's basically like one hundred
Speaker 4: billion times stronger than your doctor's X ray, really strong,
Speaker 4: strong enough to get through rock. Oh my god. People
Speaker 4: use it for like batteries, people use it for all
Speaker 4: kinds of things. We used it for rocks, and I
Speaker 4: was like, Okay, I want to shoot these really early fossils.
Speaker 4: Let's see if these like early fragments really are teeth,
Speaker 4: because then that would pull back the record of mineralizing
Speaker 4: vertebrates from middle order vision all the way back to
Speaker 4: the Lake Camberan and it would be my transitional fossil
Speaker 4: that I was looking for right, Oh my god, this
Speaker 4: is what I pitched to come to U Chicago. I
Speaker 4: was like, this is really what I want to do.
Speaker 4: The fossils exist somewhere, let's go find them. And so
Speaker 4: they've been published on before, in the nineties seventies and
Speaker 4: then again in the nineties, and they were like a
Speaker 4: big splash every time because brand new early vertebrate.
Speaker 7: Hm.
Speaker 4: We scan them and I was like, great, this really
Speaker 4: looks like a tooth. These really look like little odontods
Speaker 4: and a piece of bone. Wonderful, we have brand new,
Speaker 4: really beautiful three D images. Gorgeous. Okay, great. I dig
Speaker 4: into the literature some more, and at that time, even
Speaker 4: when they originally published them, they thought, maybe these are
Speaker 4: not vertebrates, but maybe these are arthropods.
Speaker 5: Because remember, we just spent the last hour establishing that
Speaker 5: invertebrates like arthropods with their exoskeletons, do not have odontods. Right,
Speaker 5: we know those words now, so why are we seeing them?
Speaker 4: And everyone who said it was that arthropod kind of
Speaker 4: got like brushed aside, and another paper came out that
Speaker 4: used paleohistology to prove that they were vertebrates. And how
Speaker 4: they did that was they cut up these little fragments
Speaker 4: and saw the inside of the odontod and they saw
Speaker 4: these tubules inside the adontod and so they were like,
Speaker 4: this is denteine, and dentine is only found invertebrates, and
Speaker 4: therefore it has to be a vertebrate. Slamm dunk, big
Speaker 4: deal came out, and everyone's like, okay, great, we now
Speaker 4: know this Late Cambrian fish thing, fragment thing is a vertebrate.
Speaker 4: But I was like, okay, I want to scan it
Speaker 4: now that we know it's a vertebrate. Let's get a
Speaker 4: good three D structure of these earliest teeth. When we
Speaker 4: scanned it, I was like, great, this does look like
Speaker 4: a tooth. And then I started reading some more and
Speaker 4: I was like, well, the people who originally published that
Speaker 4: it was an arthropod are really good scientists and I
Speaker 4: respect these people, and what if they were right? What if?
Speaker 4: You know? So we scan some arthropods to compare it
Speaker 4: to and we start scanning these arthropods and we see tubules,
Speaker 4: little little tubes, and so these arthropods have also bumps
Speaker 4: on their skeleton, and we're like, this is odd. And
Speaker 4: each bump has tubules and it's really hard and we're
Speaker 4: like what if. So we scan a bunch of arthropods
Speaker 4: and basically, long story short, found out that this late
Speaker 4: Cambrian guy was not a vertebrate no at all, but
Speaker 4: an arthropod. So what does that mean exactly? So what
Speaker 4: that means is that we don't have our transitional fossil,
Speaker 4: We don't have the guy in the middle. We still
Speaker 4: have this giant gap between squishy boys and fully armored fish.
Speaker 4: And that was really weird and it really bothered me.
Speaker 4: I was really upset. Yeah, I was like, oh no,
Speaker 4: my tooth, my earliest tuth. But even at that moment,
Speaker 4: I was like, why does it still look like a tooth?
Speaker 4: Why are these arthropods covered in things that look like
Speaker 4: a don to toad's?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: And what are they? What are these like weird bumps
Speaker 4: that look like adntoa's on an arthropod versus a vertebrate.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I did some deep digging, read way too much
Speaker 4: about arthropods and found out that there are these things
Speaker 4: called sincilla. Sincilla are sensory structures that are super diverse.
Speaker 4: So like, think of like a fly that lands and
Speaker 4: he's like rubbing his little legs and there's hairs all
Speaker 4: over it, like you know the movie Fly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I said it, yeah exactly.
Speaker 4: So that's a type of sincili that's a mechano sensor one,
Speaker 4: so it can sense the deflection as they move. There's
Speaker 4: chemistry ones like chemo sensory ones, so they touch the ground,
Speaker 4: they taste the ground every time they land, of course,
Speaker 4: but that's what sinceillly are, and that's what we found
Speaker 4: on this ancient arthropod from the Ladies Cambrian. It was
Speaker 4: sensory organs all over their bodies and so we're like, oh,
Speaker 4: that's really bizarre. So this is really intricate sensory network
Speaker 4: of like bumps and stuff on Arthur POD's fantastic. I
Speaker 4: go and I tell Neil, my supervisor, and I'm like, hey,
Speaker 4: I think they're there. And he's like, oh, well, that
Speaker 4: kind of makes sense that they look like teeth. Then
Speaker 4: that makes sense that they look at like adonods. I'm like,
Speaker 4: why does it make sense mm hmm, and he's like, well,
Speaker 4: because teeth are sensory, adontods are probably sensory too. And
Speaker 4: I was like, how do we prove this? How do
Speaker 4: we actually test if odontods, which are outside the mouth
Speaker 4: are sensory the same way teeth inside the mouth are. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know your teeth are sensitive, right, of course you're
Speaker 4: having some issues with that, and like a lot of
Speaker 4: us do, But it doesn't really make sense. Why would
Speaker 4: you chew with these super sensitive structures. Yeah, that was
Speaker 4: always such a bizarre thought process. But then you look
Speaker 4: at all these different animals that use their teeth as
Speaker 4: sensory Organs, elephants touching the ground, narwhals with their giant
Speaker 4: like horn. It's not a horn, it's actually a giant
Speaker 4: tooth bonkers, and they sense all kinds of temperature changes
Speaker 4: and wave changes because they're Denteine is sensitive. Dentine is
Speaker 4: our sensitive tissue. That's why if you take care of
Speaker 4: your enamel and your gums, usually your teeth are okay,
Speaker 4: because when you're denteene is exposed, it's the sensitive tissue.
Speaker 4: Oh no, okay. So now we know adon tooads have dentine,
Speaker 4: and we know that teeth have dentine, but we don't
Speaker 4: know if adntoad's outside the mouth are sensitive mm hm.
Speaker 4: And so this is where I took a really weird
Speaker 4: tangent that I want to tell you about. Remember when
Speaker 4: I told you that sharks have a dantoad's, they're covered
Speaker 4: in these little little bits. The other ones that have
Speaker 4: a danto's are cat fish and so you know, like
Speaker 4: a little pleco those like algae eating little fish that
Speaker 4: you get in your aquarium. Yeah, so those guys are
Speaker 4: covering nadanto's too. They're covered in little teeth. What's the
Speaker 4: bizarre And they are super easy to keep and super common.
Speaker 4: So I went to a pet store and I got
Speaker 4: a bunch of them, oh my god, and started breeding
Speaker 4: them in the lab to get their little embryos so
Speaker 4: we could actually test if their dontods are innervated, because
Speaker 4: that would be the first step for them to be
Speaker 4: actually sensory. If the dantod has nerves going to it,
Speaker 4: then at least that's step one of it being innervated.
Speaker 4: And these dantods in our early fish from the Middle
Speaker 4: Ord division have pulp cavities, and pulp cavities are where
Speaker 4: the nerve goes, and we were able to trace it
Speaker 4: all the way down to know that, like there had
Speaker 4: to have been a nerve there. But do modern dantods
Speaker 4: outside the mouth have nerves? So went collected a bunch
Speaker 4: of these algae eating pleco learned how to keep an
Speaker 4: aquarium because God knows, I never had an aquarium. Uh,
Speaker 4: and write a bunch of these little fish. And then
Speaker 4: we use this amazing method called clarity where you make
Speaker 4: the little embryos super clear. You basically remove all the
Speaker 4: fats and lots of the proteins, and then you add
Speaker 4: antibodies that attach only to nerves and then they have
Speaker 4: a fluorescent probe so they glow under a microscope. And
Speaker 4: so you bathe them in these antibodies and you put
Speaker 4: them under the microscope and then they glow wherever the
Speaker 4: nerves go, and you can trace every nerve to every adontoad.
Speaker 4: All their adontoads were innervated right into the pulp cavity.
Speaker 6: No.
Speaker 5: And so when they're in the aquarium, are they like,
Speaker 5: oh it's a little cold in here? Is that what
Speaker 5: they're feeling is that.
Speaker 4: They fight with them? What do they do? They have
Speaker 4: cheekadon tooads that are on this Like catfish are really weird, guys.
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna side note everybody. I think it is
Speaker 4: it one in five vertebrates is a catfish?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: Please, check me on that.
Speaker 5: Your later told me that she meant one in twenty
Speaker 5: or five percent of all vertebrates are catfish. One in
Speaker 5: twenty vertebrates on planet Earth are catfish. What the fuck's
Speaker 5: going on? So, yeah, we need a catfish expert for
Speaker 5: a Cilia formology episode, And yeah, I think it needs
Speaker 5: to be a two parter addressing internet scams as well.
Speaker 5: Maybe five percent of vertebrates on dating apps are bots.
Speaker 5: Who knows anyway, actual real, slimy, perfect whiskery catfish.
Speaker 4: Their diversity is wild. Yeah, no, they did really well
Speaker 4: for themselves. Not all of them have adanto's, but these
Speaker 4: little algae eating ones too, and they have them all
Speaker 4: over their bodies, all over their fins, all over their cheeks,
Speaker 4: and they ram each other with them. They also sense
Speaker 4: their environment all the time because they're bottom dwellers, right,
Speaker 4: so they're always feeling the bottom and they're tasting with
Speaker 4: taste buds in between their adontos. They taste their environment.
Speaker 4: Have you ever wondered when you like, if you put
Speaker 4: a little bit of food somewhere in your aquarium, even
Speaker 4: if it's far from your fish, still nowhere to get it.
Speaker 4: That's because they're constantly kind of tasting their environment.
Speaker 5: With taste buds in between their outside teeth.
Speaker 4: Seems that way. Yeah, why don't.
Speaker 5: Sci fi movies just do a just do biology. Yeah,
Speaker 5: just dom horrifying and amazing.
Speaker 4: Yep, yep, yikes.
Speaker 5: And so what happened when you were writing up this paper?
Speaker 4: So it was like a bunch of different parts, Right,
Speaker 4: We made an arthropod library where we did comparative stuff.
Speaker 4: We found out that they were sincilly. Then we did
Speaker 4: a bunch of stuff on sharks and catfish to find
Speaker 4: out thedontoads were innervated, and then tied it all back
Speaker 4: to the Ordovision vertebrates. So this paper we basically said
Speaker 4: the Late Cambrian supposed vertebrate is not a vertebrate. So
Speaker 4: we kicked that out, which meant that now our true
Speaker 4: earliest mineralizing vertebrates, our Middle Ordervision four one hundred and
Speaker 4: fifty or so million years ago, and we finally have
Speaker 4: a little bit of that. The external dantodes were not
Speaker 4: only for protection, they weren't only for being armor, but
Speaker 4: they could have also helped our ancient ancestors with sensation,
Speaker 4: and that maybe that explains why our teeth are sensitive
Speaker 4: in the first place. Maybe it's because it's an inherited
Speaker 4: complexity from their original function.
Speaker 5: And I tell my dentist about this. Do you try this?
Speaker 4: I tried. I just had a tooth cleaning and actually
Speaker 4: last week and I'm like, hey, I'm so happy because
Speaker 4: I'm proud of my paper. And I'm like, you want
Speaker 4: to know something, and they're like, please open your mouth,
Speaker 4: please please, ma'am. They shut me down so quickly.
Speaker 5: You're like, you work with teeth. I work with tea
Speaker 5: slightly different era. Everyone pass this on to your hygienist.
Speaker 5: They deserve cool facts and a lot of praise. People
Speaker 5: should know. But yeah, we were talking, Okay, what were
Speaker 5: we talking about?
Speaker 4: But no, I would say the hardest part, that was
Speaker 4: the question. Hardest part about my job is that I
Speaker 4: have to keep thinking about ancient fish while the world
Speaker 4: is doing what the world is doing. Yeah, and I
Speaker 4: think that would be the hardest part. Funding has obviously
Speaker 4: become a problem recently for a lot of scientists, particularly
Speaker 4: natural history, particularly life earth sciences. It's just, you know,
Speaker 4: when everyone starts to panic, they think that it's time
Speaker 4: to cut science, and that's actually the worst time to
Speaker 4: cut science in general because we need to preserve these things.
Speaker 4: New discoveries are how we get out of economic downfalls,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. So that's always sad. But I
Speaker 4: think the hardest, hardest part is just I guess I
Speaker 4: think about old bones today, even though you know bombings
Speaker 4: are happening or economic crashes are happening, and then the
Speaker 4: system that's supporting me and celebrating me is also the
Speaker 4: same one that's upholding all kinds of other issues. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I think it'll be the hardest part.
Speaker 5: Just you're like a head down yep, don't mind the wars,
Speaker 5: the genocides, the climate change.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's tough.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The way I get over that, though, is like through
Speaker 4: stuff like this science communication. I really do see a
Speaker 4: difference when you talk to people. Most people haven't met
Speaker 4: a scientists. I sure didn't until I was like about
Speaker 4: to become one. So I don't want to leave it
Speaker 4: all doom and gloom, because, like I push people, I
Speaker 4: think the real solution to this is more people interacting
Speaker 4: with science. Just go to your museums, go to your universities,
Speaker 4: go volunteer for whatever invasive we'd thing that people are
Speaker 4: removing from your local neighborhood, interact with science as much
Speaker 4: as you can.
Speaker 5: And there's always community science too for people to join.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, totally. And there's like big science fairs, big
Speaker 4: volunteer opportunities.
Speaker 5: Yeah, get in there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but.
Speaker 5: I mean, how do you even say what the best
Speaker 5: thing about your job is When you're getting to look
Speaker 5: at all this cool, weird stuff, what's your favorite part?
Speaker 5: What gives you like, odonto goosebumps.
Speaker 4: Don goosebumps. That's disturbing, but accurate. I would say, like
Speaker 4: looking at the tissues under a microscope, realizing that you're
Speaker 4: the first person to see this animal since it got buried.
Speaker 4: You're the first person to put these things together. Fossils
Speaker 4: just like the actual physical objects, the fact that they
Speaker 4: exist is amazing. The new methods, the people I work with, like,
Speaker 4: I love my job. I love my job. I want
Speaker 4: everyone to experience the feeling of finding their first fossil,
Speaker 4: because that's it's so weird to just crack open a
Speaker 4: piece of rock and be the very first person to
Speaker 4: look at this bone since it was buried four hundred
Speaker 4: and eighty million years ago. Like, that's such a bizarre feeling.
Speaker 4: And if you literally sit with it and you let
Speaker 4: it like permeate your being, you realize how special that
Speaker 4: is and how small we are and kind of making
Speaker 4: ourselves small. I think in many ways, like I don't know,
Speaker 4: it makes you feel like you're part of a big
Speaker 4: system and time and the earth and all of that
Speaker 4: comes together to make this particular moment where you're seeing
Speaker 4: this fish. It's just weird. Discovery is always so so interesting.
Speaker 4: The amount of mental freedom that we have to ask
Speaker 4: strange questions and go down strange rabbit holes. It is
Speaker 4: an eighty h deer's like dream, which is why there's
Speaker 4: so many of us in academia. Yeah right, yeah, so,
Speaker 4: I mean I love my job.
Speaker 5: When you think about things in the long term, ex
Speaker 5: essentially not to doom and gloom it, but if you
Speaker 5: could fossilize yourself after death, would you like, do you
Speaker 5: want to keep your bones around or are you like
Speaker 5: throw me in the ocean, burn me up, and grind
Speaker 5: me up. I would think about bones differently, where I'd
Speaker 5: be like, I kind of want my skull to be
Speaker 5: around after You.
Speaker 4: Can't do it to science, and then you know you'll
Speaker 4: probably end up like a kidaver or an anatomy lab
Speaker 4: and that's always really really helpful. Sometimes you'll end up
Speaker 4: as a teaching skeleton. I don't know how to end
Speaker 4: up as a teaching skeleton, but I would love to
Speaker 4: end up as a teaching skeleton.
Speaker 5: Wouldn't be cool.
Speaker 4: It would be so cool. I don't find it like obviously.
Speaker 4: I mean, I work with bones all the time. I
Speaker 4: don't find a grotesque. I find it so fascinating. Yeah that,
Speaker 4: like everything is such a different shape, and you know,
Speaker 4: my skulls. I can be hanging around in a classroom
Speaker 4: staring at students forever. I would love that.
Speaker 5: I think that would be cool too. Now that I've
Speaker 5: been talking to you about bones, I'm like kind of
Speaker 5: worried to that. Yeah, if they can use me, or
Speaker 5: just put me in a mud flat and uh and let.
Speaker 4: The octopus aliens find me. Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 5: Just a little peace sign on a mudflat, perfectly fun.
Speaker 3: Slap me over, yeah, no copin, please just wet wet mud.
Speaker 5: Uh. This is a joy. And I'm so glad this
Speaker 5: has been six years in the making.
Speaker 4: At least at least you know you're doctor.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me at this beautiful, terrifyingly dark
Speaker 5: maze of cabinets known as the Collections of the Field Museum.
Speaker 5: They're so long, Oh my god, what an icon. So
Speaker 5: ask informed people on a bashed question because their skulls
Speaker 5: are full of good stuff. Thank you so much, paleohistologist
Speaker 5: doctor Yara Haredi for opening up the stacks at the
Speaker 5: Field Museum, for this visit, changing the way I gaze
Speaker 5: at my own teeth, and for more on Doctorhurridi. Her
Speaker 5: website is Yara Heredi dot com. Her instagram is Yara
Speaker 5: Underscore Haredi. And we'll have more links to the studies
Speaker 5: and the some here project at Aliward dot com, slash
Speaker 5: Ologies slash Paleohistology, and remember we also have kids safe,
Speaker 5: classroom appropriate cuts of Ologies classics. They're out every week.
Speaker 5: Just search Smologies s M O l O g I
Speaker 5: e s and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We
Speaker 5: are at Ologies on Blue Sky and Instagram. I'm at
Speaker 5: Aliward on both ologies. Merch is available at ologiesmerch dot
Speaker 5: com and to submit questions before we record, sign up
Speaker 5: for a dollar a month at Patreon dot com. Slash
Speaker 5: Ologies The Lovely aeron Talbert Adminsiologies podcast Facebook group. Aveline
Speaker 5: Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwyer does the website.
Speaker 5: The Smiley Noel Dilawarth is our sking producer the web.
Speaker 5: Holding us together as managing director Susan Hale and working
Speaker 5: as a set to chew through the edits are Jake
Speaker 5: Chafe and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick
Speaker 5: Thorburn made the theme music. And if you stick around
Speaker 5: until the very end, you know, I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 5: a secret and this week it's two. So one app
Speaker 5: I've been loving lately is called Doodle and I'm not
Speaker 5: getting paid to talk about it. It's in beta right now.
Speaker 5: It gives you a prompt every day to doodle something,
Speaker 5: and then you can see what your friends are strangers
Speaker 5: doodled on that same prompt and it's a very fun,
Speaker 5: low key way to just make something no stakes and
Speaker 5: let your brain be goofy and creative once again. It's free.
Speaker 5: It's called Doodle no e on the end, and my
Speaker 5: wonderful friend Stephanie is the designer. I think it's a genius.
Speaker 5: I'm on there as squirrel hat with a K sk
Speaker 5: W skw rl hat I think. And my profile picture
Speaker 5: is a bat face again not getting paid doodle, just
Speaker 5: love it. Second secret, which is a bit more vulnerable.
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm going to regret this as soon
Speaker 5: as we hit publish. But I used to act on TV.
Speaker 5: That's how I got my health insurance. And I once
Speaker 5: had a bit part on Grey's Anatomy on an episode
Speaker 5: called Something to Talk About, in which I play a
Speaker 5: pregnant wife with a mysteriously pregnant cisgender husband. So if
Speaker 5: you would like to learn some dramatized medical trivia, do
Speaker 5: enjoy that. Don't make fun of me too hard. Also,
Speaker 5: the belly they had me wear was like a pantyhose,
Speaker 5: big girdle, and it was filled with like ten pounds
Speaker 5: of bird seed and it was fun to squish it
Speaker 5: with my finger. Also, I had baby banks and blue
Speaker 5: black hair, So enjoy that. Okay. So those modern teeth,
Speaker 5: they evolved so hard and they deserve it. Wear your mouthguards,
Speaker 5: black eyes for.
Speaker 6: My pacodermatology, homeology or do zoology, lithology, technology, meteorology, paratology, apology, seriology.
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