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<v Speaker 1>We round off this week's discussion with something very real

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<v Speaker 1>that some consider a threat. Project twenty twenty five is

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<v Speaker 1>something that is on the horizon and is here in

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<v Speaker 1>front of us, and it could fundamentally change the way

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<v Speaker 1>public education works. We're going to have Scott tell us

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<v Speaker 1>about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Scott Project twenty twenty five, a conservative policy agenda crafted

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<v Speaker 2>for the next Republican president, proposes eliminating the federal Department

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<v Speaker 2>of Education, privatizing student loans, and implementing federal parental rights legislation.

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<v Speaker 2>Developed by the Heritage Foundation and supported by Trump allies,

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<v Speaker 2>it seeks to fundamentally restructure K twelve and higher education

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<v Speaker 2>funding and curriculum. Critics argue a devastate public education, with

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<v Speaker 2>Sky Perriman of Democracy Forward calling it a wrecking ball

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<v Speaker 2>to the system. The plan includes dismantling Title I funding

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<v Speaker 2>for low income schools, reducing federal oversight, and privatizing student loans,

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<v Speaker 2>which could limit educational access and quality. While former President

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<v Speaker 2>Trump has distanced himself from the Democrats, Warrant reflects this

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<v Speaker 2>potential presidency's direction. The plan has faced backlash for its

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<v Speaker 2>perceived undermining of civil rights protections and diversity efforts. In education.

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<v Speaker 2>This story is from the Hill by Lexi Lonis on

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<v Speaker 2>July twelfth, twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Scott, And I'm going to go ahead and

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<v Speaker 1>give the first question to you, since you are an educator. Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>Project twenty twenty five actually proposes the elimination of the

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<v Speaker 1>Department of Education and a significant reorganization of K through

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<v Speaker 1>twelve education funding. How might these changes impact the quality

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<v Speaker 1>and equity of public education in the United States?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Boy, okay, So where should I Where should I start?

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<v Speaker 2>I'll start with the quote where we got that wrecking

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<v Speaker 2>ball thing that I was just talking about. This is

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<v Speaker 2>from like I mentioned, sky Perrman, he's the president and

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<v Speaker 2>CEO of Democracy Forward. The quote says, it is not

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<v Speaker 2>hyperbole to say that Project twenty twenty five would be

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<v Speaker 2>a wrecking ball to the public education in this country,

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<v Speaker 2>and it seeks to radically undermine and undercut the ability

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<v Speaker 2>of people to get a quality education in this country.

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<v Speaker 2>And then even goes further and seeks to transform our

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<v Speaker 2>public education system and our public schools into ideological extremist spaces.

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<v Speaker 2>And I agree with that. I think that's not hyperbole

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<v Speaker 2>to say that this is an existential threat to public

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<v Speaker 2>education as we know it. And I think that the

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<v Speaker 2>effects that they are, at least the effects that they

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<v Speaker 2>were talking about in this particular article. I'm sure the

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<v Speaker 2>Project twenty twenty five document itself is just the gift

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<v Speaker 2>that keeps on giving, which is horrible thing after a

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<v Speaker 2>horrible thing. This article was particularly focused on the changes

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<v Speaker 2>to education, and I think there's kind of a two

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<v Speaker 2>prong approach here. One is, get them while they're young, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to control the content of K twelve education.

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<v Speaker 2>This is going to be done using things like school vouchers,

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<v Speaker 2>which reroutes money from or which can reroute money from

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<v Speaker 2>public schools to private schools. And we cover that all

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<v Speaker 2>the time in the nonprofit. It's the school about your

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<v Speaker 2>issue and skewed content standards either dropping important material like

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<v Speaker 2>different racial issues and so forth can be dropped from

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<v Speaker 2>from the curriculum and adding things like Bible study and so.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh so we're skewing the content, and uh we're redirecting

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<v Speaker 2>the funds keep biggotry alive. And well, so it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to remove protections for vulnerable, marginized and minority students. Bigotry

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<v Speaker 2>encourages division and a divided population is easier to control, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>And so by removing those protections that we have fought

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<v Speaker 2>long and hard to get these students, is just going

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<v Speaker 2>to be pushing us back back into the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>back into the dark ages, right uh. And then also

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<v Speaker 2>to defund programs that are intended to increase opportunities for

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<v Speaker 2>underprivileged students and so getting so getting them while they're young.

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<v Speaker 2>That's that's phase one. Phase two, UH is put them

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<v Speaker 2>down and keep them down. They're going to be destroying

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<v Speaker 2>the effectiveness of student loan programs by deregulation, deregulation and privatization,

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<v Speaker 2>and so privatization is going to allow them to uh

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<v Speaker 2>siphon funds off to these private loan organizations, and then

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<v Speaker 2>regulation deregulation is basically an invitation for more and more

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<v Speaker 2>severe predatory types of loans. And that what that's going

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<v Speaker 2>to do is that's going to undercut many, many portions

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<v Speaker 2>of the population. Their ability to get an education is

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<v Speaker 2>going to be severely hampered. And and you know, to me,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the frustrating thing. If if knowledge is power, this

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<v Speaker 2>is basically just a big power grab. They want to

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<v Speaker 2>control the flow of information and they want to control

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<v Speaker 2>our ability to get that kind of information. Uh, it

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<v Speaker 2>moves the focus of education from empowerment to basically mental enslavement.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if you remove a person's ability to think

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<v Speaker 2>on their own and investigate, you remove their power to

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<v Speaker 2>take their lives in a direction that they want. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's not and it's shifting that focus. It's not about

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<v Speaker 2>enabling personal improvement anymore. It's not about contributing to the

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<v Speaker 2>betterment of us all anymore. Now, it's about perpetuating that division,

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<v Speaker 2>about sacrificing the many for the betterment of the few.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's not education at all. That's bastardizing an educational

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<v Speaker 2>system into a tool for control. And so if there's

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<v Speaker 2>anything that is sacrilege in my eyes, this is it.

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>We talked earlier this week about the zig Lag organization

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<v Speaker 1>that talked about what they want to do as far

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<v Speaker 1>as like taking over the Seven Mountains, and one portion

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<v Speaker 1>of that was education. And it seems like that Project

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty five, especially when we're talking about how we

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<v Speaker 1>want to consolidate the majority of the powers in the

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<v Speaker 1>exec executive Pridge in order to tate how all the

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<v Speaker 1>other federal benches to the states and the municipalities actually

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<v Speaker 1>function would definitely be something that is concerning. And even

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<v Speaker 1>I was even thinking about to your point, Scott, when

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<v Speaker 1>you were talking about student loans and like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>basically like the restructuring of the of basically the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Education, especially when it came to regulation. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if you all remember, but a lot of for

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<v Speaker 1>profit schools got suit I want to say, like in

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<v Speaker 1>the I want to say, like around the time period

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<v Speaker 1>where Obama took off, and then we had a former

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<v Speaker 1>president who will name nameless, who also had a for

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<v Speaker 1>profit school that had to settle. And a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>times that these for profit schools were sued was because

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<v Speaker 1>their curricula that they said would be able to prepare

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<v Speaker 1>students for the future for them to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>get jobs was basically a lot. And you even had

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<v Speaker 1>like some for profit schools who had accreditation, but the

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<v Speaker 1>accreditation that they the accreditation standards those particular for profit

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<v Speaker 1>schools were not keeping up with. Now that we have

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<v Speaker 1>Project twenty twenty five, and you know, depending on how

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<v Speaker 1>things go in the fall and how things would be implemented,

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<v Speaker 1>that could very much so be a threat in the

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<v Speaker 1>way that you know, some of these schools are structured,

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<v Speaker 1>and what could be an oversight as far as like

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<v Speaker 1>making sure that curriculum is meeting standard practices, making sure

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<v Speaker 1>that the schools themselves are teaching robust lessons in order

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<v Speaker 1>to prepare students for the future instead of actually, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>saying like everybody has to study the Bible. I guess

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<v Speaker 1>like everybody's going to turn into a theocrat right now,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's going to help us in the future. Right

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think so is going to be definitely the problem.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, I'm coming to you Eli because you

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<v Speaker 1>said something very interesting about you agree with something concerning

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<v Speaker 1>the Project twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 3>Believe man on that it is not as sinister as

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<v Speaker 3>it sounds. The area. The single point on which I

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<v Speaker 3>agree with what I've read from Project twenty twenty five

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<v Speaker 3>is that, Yeah, let's fundamentally restructure the curriculum of kindergartens

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<v Speaker 3>up through tertier education. Let's do that. Let's make that better.

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<v Speaker 3>Where we don't agree is where is the people that

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<v Speaker 3>wrote like this document, or who are running the Heritage

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<v Speaker 3>Fund Foundation, or the people that are involved and trying

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<v Speaker 3>to make these changes are more of the same people

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<v Speaker 3>that should not be structuring education. Get professional experience to

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<v Speaker 3>educators that understand, you know, not just educating, but you know,

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<v Speaker 3>other things, and have them create an educational structure that

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<v Speaker 3>is going to like be be beneficial. It is in

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<v Speaker 3>our best interest to have an educated society, unless your

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<v Speaker 3>goal is like ignorant obedience, which I think a strong

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<v Speaker 3>argument could be made that that is, you know, the

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<v Speaker 3>goal of some individuals that happen to have a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of power. But if that weren't the case, if we

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<v Speaker 3>could have an educated society with an accessible quality education,

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<v Speaker 3>that we're going to start to see things get better.

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<v Speaker 3>But I don't think that's what they want.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think mostly because we covered it so many times.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not necessarily about making things better. It's more about

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<v Speaker 1>this consolidating and holding on to power. And I am

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<v Speaker 1>now coming to you, Jonathan, because I know that I've

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<v Speaker 1>heard a lot of doubles speak in my life, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think that you have as well. But what are

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<v Speaker 1>your concerns when it concerns twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 5>I have quite a few, and I have heard a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of double speak in my life, But this is

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<v Speaker 5>really bad. Destroying the Department of Education means that there's

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<v Speaker 5>no watchdog over education in the country and they don't

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<v Speaker 5>want one. Betsy never mind, I won't say specific names.

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<v Speaker 5>Some people in the last administration who were were higher

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<v Speaker 5>up in the education department attempted to destroy it from

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<v Speaker 5>that position. So now they're literally saying they're going to

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<v Speaker 5>destroy it. You want to give the states the freedom

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<v Speaker 5>quotes in quotes to underfund and destroy public education. So

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<v Speaker 5>what are you saying if you only want private schools

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<v Speaker 5>and only those rich enough to afford them can get

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<v Speaker 5>across get a good access to good education. That's one

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<v Speaker 5>of the things that Jefferson was afraid of. Actually, when

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<v Speaker 5>we just established public education. Thomas Jefferson pushed for the

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<v Speaker 5>education because he was of the opinion that in a democracy,

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<v Speaker 5>the citizenship citizenry must be able to think, address the

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<v Speaker 5>questions of the day, and understand the people they are

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<v Speaker 5>voting for and what their positions are. If you keep

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<v Speaker 5>populations dimmed down and without the benefit of a decent education,

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<v Speaker 5>and you only educate them to be in a trade

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<v Speaker 5>so that they can be there, they won't know that

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<v Speaker 5>they're working for slave wages and they're not able to

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<v Speaker 5>pursue careers that would put them in positions of power.

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<v Speaker 5>They are trying to strip the entire people of the

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<v Speaker 5>of the United States of that power, and they're they're

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<v Speaker 5>starting it with their seven Mountains. But what they really

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<v Speaker 5>want to do is make sure that their particular viewpoint

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<v Speaker 5>is forced down people's throats, and that the people are

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<v Speaker 5>not taught enough critical thinking and enough have enough education

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<v Speaker 5>and knowledge about the world to do anything but what

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<v Speaker 5>they want them to do. And that's the problem that

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<v Speaker 5>I have with it. Education should be under the control

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<v Speaker 5>of educators, not people who have ulterior agendas that they

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<v Speaker 5>are trying to fulfill. Our population needs to be educated,

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<v Speaker 5>and they need to have the skills in thinking and

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<v Speaker 5>in analysis to be able to create the society that

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<v Speaker 5>we all want. They've been dumbing down the education for

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<v Speaker 5>a while, and they really need to. We are falling

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<v Speaker 5>behind radically in education. We are something like twenty sixth

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<v Speaker 5>in all the nations. I don't have that specifically, but

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<v Speaker 5>I think that's the last stat I saw, And then

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<v Speaker 5>there was another one that said.

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<v Speaker 4>We were eighteen. But what are we as the United

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<v Speaker 4>States doing anywhere but the top five, if not the

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<v Speaker 4>number one in education? What are we doing to our kids?

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<v Speaker 4>You know, what are we doing to the next generation.

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<v Speaker 4>Why aren't we bringing them to the point where they

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<v Speaker 4>know enough math, science, English, literature and history to be

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<v Speaker 4>able to make the next leap in our society to

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<v Speaker 4>a better and more equitable and more inclusive society. That's

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<v Speaker 4>what's bothering about the whole thing.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. It says something about being in the richest nation,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the richest nations in the world, and still

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<v Speaker 1>being damn near thirty in the world when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to education, and how you have to pay basically an

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<v Speaker 1>exorbitant amount of money in order for you to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to be properly educated depending on what go and

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<v Speaker 1>we're already having issues when it comes to standards, how

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<v Speaker 1>you know, how people are educated, especially when we're looking

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<v Speaker 1>at K through twelve. I think of my own city

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<v Speaker 1>and how depending on what neighborhood that you're in in

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<v Speaker 1>public school would be a determining factor on the quality

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<v Speaker 1>of education that you're going to get, even though that

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<v Speaker 1>everybody in the city is paying property taxes and those

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<v Speaker 1>property taxes are supposed to be going to fund the school,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's definitely a difference for those who happen to

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<v Speaker 1>be in a higher tax bracket on how their schools

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<v Speaker 1>look versus other neighborhoods where that is not the case,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's unfortunate that we have this. The only thing

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<v Speaker 1>I can really call it as an ideological extremism coming

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<v Speaker 1>from Project twenty twenty five that could possibly be very

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<v Speaker 1>detrimental to our already very much so broken educational system. So, Scott,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering, with this extremism that we're seeing with Project

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty five and the shift that the authors want

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<v Speaker 1>to do, especially when it comes to specific cultural and

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<v Speaker 1>political viewpoints, how could these changes actually impact academic freedom

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<v Speaker 1>and diversity of perspectives in schools and universities.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's the target, I mean, that's the main target.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not that it, like I said before, it's totally

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<v Speaker 2>bastardizing the entire per purpose of education. By the goal

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<v Speaker 2>of education is to is for people to learn about

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<v Speaker 2>the world and to be able to act and to

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<v Speaker 2>institute change and to push the direction of the world

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<v Speaker 2>in the direction that is helpful and positive for all

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<v Speaker 2>of us. You know, we've heard the phrase a rising

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<v Speaker 2>tide raises all ships, you know, that's kind of what

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<v Speaker 2>we're looking for. But instead. What it's doing is it's

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<v Speaker 2>turning it to a system of using of using we've

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we use the phrase teach to your children

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<v Speaker 2>how to think, not what to think, right, and so,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is the humble way to approach things. It's

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<v Speaker 2>an optimistic way to approach things. It's working under the

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<v Speaker 2>assumption that maybe your children can reach a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>further than you did. You know, maybe they can do

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<v Speaker 2>a little better than you did, maybe they can learn

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<v Speaker 2>things that you didn't know about. And so really, what

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<v Speaker 2>this is doing is it's taking away that it's taking

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<v Speaker 2>away that attitude of curiosity, it's taking away that additude

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<v Speaker 2>of betterment, of empowerment, and it's saying, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we were talking about this and the other segments too,

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<v Speaker 2>it's turning it into a system of obedience and of

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<v Speaker 2>putting people into this particular box because this is the

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<v Speaker 2>box that I was in, and this is the box

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<v Speaker 2>that my parents were in, and this is the box

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<v Speaker 2>that their parents were in, and so this is the

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<v Speaker 2>box that you should be in. If you're outside of

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<v Speaker 2>this box, you are wrong, you're bad, you're impure, you're evil,

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<v Speaker 2>you're whatever. And you know, it's it's it's it's flipping

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<v Speaker 2>the script there. It's saying that it's not that we

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<v Speaker 2>want you to learn, it's that we want you to

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<v Speaker 2>learn these specific things. And if you if you do,

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<v Speaker 2>if you approach your education that way, then you've eliminated

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<v Speaker 2>those opportunities for improvement. You've eliminated those opportunities to expand,

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<v Speaker 2>to get better. You're even eliminating opportunities for us to

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<v Speaker 2>keep up with the rest of the world. It's inexcusable

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<v Speaker 2>for us to have such, you know, such a low performance.

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<v Speaker 2>And I disagree with a little bit what what Eli

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<v Speaker 2>was saying. I don't think that our education system needs

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<v Speaker 2>to be revamped from the ground up. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>I think that there's good bones there. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>I think we have a strong core is to uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to the way that educators approach education. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's and again I'm a teacher, I'm you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a biased opinion, and so you know, take

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<v Speaker 2>what I say with a grain of salt here. But

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<v Speaker 2>I think it has a lot to do with the

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<v Speaker 2>attitude towards education. What people aren't, you know, aren't aren't

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<v Speaker 2>looking into aren't looking into getting education For what I

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<v Speaker 2>would consider the best reasons. You know, they want to

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<v Speaker 2>get their job, they want to go punch the clock,

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<v Speaker 2>and they want to move on with their lives. And

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<v Speaker 2>rather than rather than looking at education as a way

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<v Speaker 2>of opening yourself up to many opportunities, to many different

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<v Speaker 2>avenues of investigation and and ways that you can satisfy

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<v Speaker 2>your curiosity. So I think the changing our educational system

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<v Speaker 2>in this way, I think is going to we will

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<v Speaker 2>not have an education system anymore. We will have a

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<v Speaker 2>dogma system. We will have indoctrinate Yeah, thank you Jonathan

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<v Speaker 2>in indoctrination system. And I think that it's it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be ultimately to the detriment of us as individuals

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<v Speaker 2>and as a nation.

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<v Speaker 1>Elhy did you want to respond to Scott?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'll say, because you're the one that's an educator.

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<v Speaker 3>If you and I disagree that about the education system,

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<v Speaker 3>the likelihood is that I'm wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>Not necessarily. Not necessarily, like I said, I have a

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<v Speaker 2>biased opinion to yourself.

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<v Speaker 3>That's argument from authority. But my point is that that

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<v Speaker 3>is why people like you should be making decisions about

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<v Speaker 3>the education system and not people like me who don't

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<v Speaker 3>have experience in that field. And I think you demonstrated

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<v Speaker 3>that aptly.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what I assumed that you had meant. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't mean to be trashing you. It's just that one

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<v Speaker 2>little nettle in my shoe there.

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<v Speaker 1>Come on, Scott, we all knew that you wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>trash Eli. Well, you know, I mean to to I

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<v Speaker 1>think to wards like Eli's point about like revamping the

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<v Speaker 1>education system, and to your point, Scott, about the reasoning

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<v Speaker 1>behind people wanting to get educated is that we have

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<v Speaker 1>to kind of look at basically how our society is structured,

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<v Speaker 1>specifically in the United States that you know, a big

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<v Speaker 1>emphasis on you know, doing better economically is tased on education.

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<v Speaker 1>But we have an issue where we don't have equitable

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<v Speaker 1>education from you know, from California all the way to

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<v Speaker 1>New York, you know, from the north to the South

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<v Speaker 1>and everywhere in between, from Ohio to the US to

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<v Speaker 1>the coast of Florida. You know, I will not bust that, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, from sea to

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<v Speaker 1>Shining Segma. We're not gonna go there.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it was few enough notes that were okay, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sure that's public.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you right should be. But you know, but

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<v Speaker 1>but still, I think that if we take both of

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<v Speaker 1>your points about making sure that an education system can

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<v Speaker 1>foster things like curiosity and in critical thinking, and also

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<v Speaker 1>the wantingness to become sharper and better, and then having

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<v Speaker 1>our society structured in a way that those particular values

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<v Speaker 1>are value would make a huge difference in the way

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<v Speaker 1>that education works for everyone who happens to be here. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have that system, or at least it does

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<v Speaker 1>not exist everywhere. And then because it does not exist everywhere,

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<v Speaker 1>we have Heritage Foundation and some of the other you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Christian nationalists crystal fascists that have also helped develop this

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<v Speaker 1>particular plan come in and say we want to make

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<v Speaker 1>education even shittier by also using it to like you said,

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<v Speaker 1>Scott get A, while they're young, right yep. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think that if we go back to this whole thing

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<v Speaker 1>about awareness and how Project twenty twenty five actually approaches

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<v Speaker 1>and reflects a broader trend of minimizing federal involvement in

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<v Speaker 1>favor of a market based solution, there goes that capitalism thing. However,

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<v Speaker 1>the risk of such a drastic overhaul, including worsening educational

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<v Speaker 1>inequities and undermining the foundational principles that public education should

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<v Speaker 1>be accessible and equitable for all. As this debate unfolds,

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<v Speaker 1>it's crucial for advocates of secularism and humanist values to

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<v Speaker 1>emphasize the importance of maintaining robust public education systems that

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<v Speaker 1>serve all students, regardless of their socio economic status, their race,

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<v Speaker 1>their creed, their color, their sexual orientation, their gender identification,

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<v Speaker 1>or their status