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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime.

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Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 2: I'm Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 5: We're joined today by a friend of the podcast, Tim Fitzgerald,

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retired FBI profiler and forensic linguist, co host of the

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Cold Red podcast with Raymond Carr, and author of the

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book series Journey to the Center of the Mind, here

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to talk to us about book four of Journey to

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the Center of the Mind, which is now available.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to Mind over Murder.

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Speaker 6: Hi christ and I love being a friend of a podcast,

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and only a few podcasts out there that I would

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give my friendship to in a full time status. Kristen

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and Bill. Great to be back with you guys, and

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thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 2: We're very excited to have you back. This is a

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treat for us and I hope for you it is.

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Speaker 6: And you guys have been on my Cold Red podcast

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and we've had great the reactions to that and we're

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still going strong. In fact, I know we want to

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talk a little bit about my book today, but just

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up front, we did something different this season, and we've

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focused on one case, actually a series of cases on

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the Cold Red podcast, and I would encourage anyone to

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check it out. It's a longitudinal study of what came

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colloquially known as the Center City rapist case, and that

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was in Philadelphia. Six rapes there, including one murder in

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the late nineties in Philadelphia, and then the person went

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dormant and then all of a sudden, rapes started occurring

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in of all places, Fort Collins, Colorado, DNA, and it's

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very early in infancy days. Analysis of it, that is,

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forensic analysis came together and linked the two sets of

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cases to one person and that person was arrested and

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we can talk about that with Ray a little bit later,

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but just for everyone to consider checking it out. We're

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not even done yet, and the entire time it's me

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and Ray, but we've deputized two other co hosts. They

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retired Philadelphia police detective and also the father of the

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murdered victim in Philadelphia, and he's a strong man. His

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wife sits a long side of them, although off camera

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and Mike, but it's difficult talking about his murdered daughter,

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but he wants to get this done. Bladelfia police made

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some mistakes. The retired detective with us readily acknowledges that

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not him. He was kept getting some of this info.

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Last night we had on two of the victims and

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Fort Collins. They came on together, gave their real names

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and put the video out there their actual faces. We

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had a Philadelphia victim a few weeks ago. She preferred

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a pseudonym and no no timera with her, which we

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totally understood. I've interviewed rape victims across the table when

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they first would come in. I've certainly interviewed rape suspects.

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I put handcuffs on them. But hearing these women talk

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twenty seven or so years after the fact, it's numbing.

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And I would recommend your listeners to check out this

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season Cold Red podcast for now in about episode ten

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or twelve of the same series. But it's fascinating with

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different rapes, a murtive and actually I'll seguey it this

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way if anyone is watching, I'm holding up a copy

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of my new book. One of the chapters in here

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is about that where he cased because I did play

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a role in it. Redy Carr was a Philadelphia FVII agent. Again,

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he's my co host when Cold Read. He brought me

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into this case when it actually turned into a murdive

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and we helped that Philadelphia police put together the profile,

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worked a little bit with Fort Collins after the fact,

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and it all came together. I'm actually getting the sky

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off the streets. But it's a very moving series of interviews.

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We have media people, police officers, victims, the father of

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a victim, and so folks consider checking in Cold Reggs

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for that and Ray and I can come back when

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we're completed. We'll give you more of a summary of it.

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If Bill and christn are nice enough to invite us.

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Of course, it's a standing invite at this point.

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Speaker 5: Yes, you have a constant open invitation for whatever you

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may want to talk about.

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Speaker 6: A friend of the podcast.

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Speaker 5: That's right, absolutely, absolutely open door policy.

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Speaker 2: No, we don't unfriend anybody, so your end, I don't

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think we have.

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Speaker 6: Either in our podcast, but some people can post kind

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You don't want to end up on the bad side

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of our own.

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Speaker 2: Friend, No, no, that would be bad.

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Speaker 5: So, since your fourth volume of Journey to the Center

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of the Mind has just come out, start by just

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addressing how long has it taken you to write the

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entirety of your memoirs? Because we've known each other a

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while and I feel like you've been working on it

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through the whole time that we've known each other.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a good question. And I just took four

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those interview I sat down and I try to think

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about that would be maybe one of the interest. So

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the bottom line is I would tell my kids and

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buddies and friends and sometimes strangers without giving names or

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anything like that, but oh, here this story and that story,

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and collectively individually, however they'd come to me. I put

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that stuff in writing or for the days of a podcast,

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or at least the very early days. I was always

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a decent writer. I could certainly put declarative sentences together

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and tell a story. Editors help, of course, down the line.

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And I just said, let me put the first book together,

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and I said, I had some interesting stories growing up,

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and I just called that Journeys of a Profiler as

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a young man, I think, borrowing from Hemingway. And so

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my first book, he just started growing up in Philadelphia

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in the sixties and seventies, going to Catholic schools, and

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the nuns beating the hell out of this, which q'dp

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you'd shake a figure at them now, if not worse,

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but it probably straightened a few of us up when

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we needed it back in the day. And then second

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book was all about my leased career ben Salem, a

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lice department from seventy six to eighty seven. And book

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three is about the first ten years in the FBI.

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And the lace chapter in book three is two hundred

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pages on my role in the unibomb case. And then

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I took a break after that because the mini series

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came out in seventeen Man on un Obomber and people

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kept saying, hey, you've got to give us more. You're

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going to finish up your FBI career. I know you're

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doing interesting stuff, now say yea, yeah, I'll get back

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to it. Finally, about two and a half years ago,

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I contacted my producer friend at Chicago. We never actually met,

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certainly we've seen each other on a zoom whatever. But

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I said, yeah, I want to do a book, but

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I've bought. Everyone liked my third book. It sold well.

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They said, Fitch, you got to get audio books.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 6: Young people don't read anymore, so I'm sure they'd still read,

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but they let's say, I knew they'd listened more than

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they read. So I said, all right. So I hired

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a guy who did a great job, and that third

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book was nominated for an award in True Crime five

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Top True Crime Audio Books of the Year. It can win,

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but you know what, to be nominated was pretty good. Finally,

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about five six, seven years though by and I said,

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you know what, I owe it to myself and others.

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Bands seat reaching out to me, fanboys, fangirls. And I'm

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only using that term as I did a radio interview

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on iHeartRadio True Crime tonight. So I decided to do

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though with my producer, and he was signed with it.

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I knew I had about thirty chapters, and I said, look,

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I'm gonna do bullet points on each one. Let's meet

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about once a week, and I'm just going to talk

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and do and do and do the platform that he

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has set up for that. And I even say in

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the beginning, there may be a few u's and ms

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in there, but this is the real fits. We're sitting

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in a bar, we're sitting in a coffee shop, we're

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driving in a long trip, and I'm telling you stories

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about my career. And I got pretty good at the

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end of my hiccupping or os and ms or whatever

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in there. So yeah, I'm just telling these stories with

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my own boys. And then for some modern aspects of technology.

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Within a few days, he would send me the link

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back in which everything I said was memorialized in this link,

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so then I would transcribe it and put it into more.

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In the beginning, he sent me just one long paragraph

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like twelve to fifteen shreeds, and I had to go

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through and break down sentences and piagraphs. Somehow, I think

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the system upgraded about halfway through and they were at

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least in separate paragraphs. But have you ever heard yourself

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talk and then you want to transcribe what you say?

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It's always seeking full sentences. I tried to as I

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am right now. I remember I read some transcripts in

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my early FBI days of court testimony, and I'm not

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even putting full sentences together. Where's the verb in that sentence?

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So i' drive to work for that with the producer

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and I would listen to every send it back to me.

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I listen again, and then of course I would sit

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down and transcribe it. And I didn't change anything. I

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would just put it more in sentence format, but a

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few things in parentheses to make sure, which because there's

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no intonation in writing, but it helps a lot more

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when they're speaking. And I just said, you know what,

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let's do this. So we did it thirty times. I

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guess there's a preface we did separate. There's an epilogue

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we did separate. I was finished in December of twenty three.

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Took us about a year. In January December. Then I

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had to send the written version, which I transcribed the

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course as I just said, off to the FBI. There's

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every FBI employee. Yeah, approved, that's right. By the pre publication.

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Unit's all separate unit. We don't arrest bad guys or

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chase down terrorists. They read agents books and approve or

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disprove them. And the first three books only took them

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about four to six weeks each one. This one they

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told me up front it's going to take eleven months.

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Why so entirely the entirety of nineteen I'm sorry, of

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twenty twenty four. I just sat with a book I

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couldn't do anything with figured. So to answer your question, Bill,

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they want to make sure we know what we say

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our contract joining the FBI. They don't want to plantified

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secrets being given out. You can criticize the bureau, which

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I do in this book, and some of the directors.

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You can get away with that. You can say Hoover

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warm glasses or dresses.

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Speaker 5: That.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think he wore the latter, but oh,

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come on, I think that's accepted as fact by this point. Wow.

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Speaker 6: I knew people that knew him, and so it wasn't

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the case. I knew so many agents like Hoover. They

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were single guys, never marry, no kids, straight guys, not

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even matters, but they just that was their mice. That

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was everything they wanted was the FBI, and lived and

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eventually died if they made it through their careers. Enough

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about Hoover. I only talked a little bit about Hoover

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in my third book, in this one.

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Speaker 2: The chapter called Lacy Underwear, Isn't it? No?

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Speaker 6: It's I knew old girl made lazy underwear. I think

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she was a dancers I professional anyway. Yeah, so they

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finally get back to me. They didn't really take too

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much out a few things here and there, and I

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didn't really want to get into a long pitch battle

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with him, so I just agreed some things around nine

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to eleven.

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Speaker 2: There's obviously a lot of sensitivity still around nine to eleven.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, But in Frak's case, I really my colleagues, at

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least a certain task force, a new one and director

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Muller I thought. I had a meeting with him and said, hey,

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your team is following the wrong person. The profilers feel

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it's not this guy, it's someone else. Muller just looked

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at me, what about the time you guys got this

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case law? I said, no, sir, all due respect, you're

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wrong about that. This is what happened. The investigator did this,

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The profiler said, blah blah blah. As I wrote my

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fourth book, he shared to me for ten straight seconds

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that within a minute to his meeting's over. I just

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walks out the door. Wow, the director, do you know

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what you just did? Fince, what you corrected the director

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in public? I said, we weren't in public. There's any

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of us in the room here. Yeah, we're all bosses

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in the FBI. Yeah, but still no one does that.

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I said, he got some fact law. I respectfully reminded

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him of that and thentonia, we don't do that in

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this room with him. Good luck for the rest of

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your career, jeez. And that was two thousand and four,

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I think, and I had three good years left in

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my career before retirement, so that's yeah. So they did

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cut that out, and I would have thought for something

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like that. What they did cut out I had to

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do with some It wasn't even classified our top secret stuff,

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but they just wanted to leave it out, so I

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just put it there. Yeah, I guess my first chapter.

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We were not going to go through all them, of course,

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but I actually worked next to us SI and in

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Quantico and I came back from unibaum and within a

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few weeks there and he was arrested. That was an

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interesting case there, and I guess the next chapter is

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the Atlanta Olympics and how we got involved in that.

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And once again that team pointed out the FBI team

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early on pointed out Richard Jewel. I wasn't playing a

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direct role in the case. Then I did later, but

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we well, you sure you want this guy? He's the

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one that called in the bomb and he sorted pushing

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people away from it and went off still killed two people,

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but the FB I went after him for a while.

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Than the Atlanta newspaper at NBC you were putting stuff

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out there and which a Jewel sued them and wouldn't

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the court case land back and forth? But yeah, I

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include that in there. Then of course it morphed into

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additional bombings where Eric Rudolph was the bomber, and including

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the abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, which a police officer

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was killed at the bombing, a nurse seriously injured, and

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that's when he was in the LAMB for five years.

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But yeah, boltally the FBI came together and although actually

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with a routine pedestrian stop when a uniform officer saw

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Eric Rudolf's two legs sticking out of a dumpster around

279
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four o'clock in the morning somewhere in western North Carolina.

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And that's when he on the arrest of the Olympic starmber.

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Despite everything we tried in the FBI back in the day,

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we just couldn't get him flushed out of the deep woods. Yeah,

283
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I cover that case, and I'm going on to talk

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to here. Do you have any questions about anything we've said?

285
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Soup Park? Know more about Hoover's dress. I can't give

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it up more information on that.

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Speaker 5: One thing I'm interested in is I was reading through

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your prologue and you're listing all of these cases that

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I think most people are familiar with. They're the big

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cases that shaped the nineties and the odds, the Olympic

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Park bombing, Dejamine Ramsey case, nine to eleven DC Sniper,

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and those really occurred in this era of the twenty

293
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four hour news cycle, where there's always something on the

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news about cases as they're happening. Was that ever a

295
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challenge for you all when you're working the case. Was

296
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anybody ever like you guys got to give us something.

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We've got the news media to feed. Was that ever

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come into play as you guys were doing an investigation,

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this need to feed the beast, if you will.

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Speaker 6: Well, that's a good point that I bring up Kristin

301
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in my book, in that by the time I'm a

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brand new profiler and getting involved in the highest I

303
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say highest profile, but the biggest newsworthy cases in the

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country at the time, there's now three competing news CNN

305
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had been around for a few years, Box News started

306
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at MSNBC for twenty four hours around the clock, and

307
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they're trying to get every one out there under the sun.

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And just about every case I had, somehow or I

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worked on as a profiler somehow seem to be affected

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one way or the other by the news media coppened.

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In the Anthrax case, I remember doing what they called

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a pressor no cameras or other type of electronic media

313
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for like one hundred or so reporters all in this

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auditorium of the FBI building, and some bosses got to

315
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know me, Well, hey, Fitz, you were successful in you

316
00:15:27,039 --> 00:15:29,759
to Obama. Yeah, and you're up here for nine to eleven.

317
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Why don't you put out your profile in the anthrax chase,

318
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and I said, it's not too much, we can go on,

319
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but sure, I'll do this, and I lay out the profile,

320
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which actually, when they finally got the right guy about

321
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six years later, the profile matched up to a t

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But I'm still putting this out and people are answering

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me questions in the media, and I just come out

324
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and say, look, some of you may and some of

325
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them even asked about unibomb and I said, look, I'm

326
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not saying this guy, this anthrax mailer, is like Ted Kaczinski.

327
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He's not living in a cabin by himself in the

328
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middle of nowhere, but he has some of the strange

329
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characteristics or similar characteristics, since he's a loner, introverted, thinks

330
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he's smarter than everyone else, and he's positive you can

331
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get away with this. He has some hidden agenda. Them

332
00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:15,120
just don't know what it is yet. And it took

333
00:16:15,159 --> 00:16:17,840
about six months, but it calls me one day. I

334
00:16:17,879 --> 00:16:21,399
mean see today's Wall Street Journal fits No, this was

335
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,000
early June two thousand and two, and he sends me

336
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a copy. Somehow I get it, and here's this guy

337
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named Robert Bartley takes all these shots at me in

338
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his commentary piece whatever they call him, opinion piece in

339
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the Wall Street Journal. He was a regular opinion piece writer,

340
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and he was convinced it was Saddam Hussin who was

341
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behind the antrax attacks. And we said the profiler said, no,

342
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we think this is a domestic lone wolf, so to speak,

343
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and did this for his own purposes. And this guy

344
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really did his best to tear me a new one

345
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in this cop Of course, I'm in the FBI. I

346
00:16:57,399 --> 00:16:59,600
just can't write it, not ed back. I have to wait.

347
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,679
I had it. Turns out took the two thousand and eight.

348
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But I was proven correct and Robert Bartley was proven wrong,

349
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unfortunately for an Amnis seriously, he died of cancer a

350
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few years after that opinion piece was sent out. So

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I never did to get a chance to counter opine

352
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,319
a stupid in the matter. There you mentioned about media

353
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also in the Anthrax case. I'll never forget. I was

354
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doing some interviews. I remember one of them. I'm talking

355
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,000
about behavioral characteristics, forensic linguistic shop and the writings. There

356
00:17:29,079 --> 00:17:31,279
wasn't a whole lot there. Of course, in the two

357
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short letters the anthrax sender put out and a day

358
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or two after the interview, one of my colleagues is

359
00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:39,960
the profile. It walks in said, what the hell did

360
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,799
you say on CNN the other night? I said, I

361
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,359
just talked about the profile, and you helped me. Bill. No,

362
00:17:46,599 --> 00:17:50,519
you put something out there about the life soores or

363
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the life of lanthrax scores and how long they can

364
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last in certain environments. I said, first of all, I

365
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,319
can know nothing. I was going to say that Fisher

366
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,799
n Ball I know him, he claims you did. This

367
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,759
is very early days of the infracts, and this guy

368
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,079
was on this task force, his first one. So I

369
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,079
even wrote on my book offer out to you. Here

370
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,640
did someone I would come up to you could be

371
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,000
years ago. Whatever I heard you said this that no, oh,

372
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,799
Joe says you actulutely said it. You're sitting back and

373
00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:22,119
wait a minute. You didn't all right? Could it have

374
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,799
some help? And missed?

375
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:24,119
Speaker 2: Sure?

376
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Speaker 6: Per day? Did I say some'mores? And they took it

377
00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:32,279
as spores. I can't imagine using the words s'mores, But

378
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,759
I said all right. But luckily I was in the FBI,

379
00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:38,119
and I called up headquarters there whatever they call it,

380
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,480
their TV unit, and said, you record all the news shows, right, Yeah,

381
00:18:42,599 --> 00:18:45,319
did you have it on seven o'clock Tuesday night?

382
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:45,599
Speaker 2: Yeah?

383
00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 6: Can you send me that tea? And back then he

384
00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:49,759
didn't do it by email. I actually put a tape

385
00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:52,599
in the mail. He said, hard copy is right. I

386
00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:57,160
played it and my interview was perfect. But Bill and

387
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,000
Christen what happened? There was a chyron running the words

388
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:07,200
that I'd come across, and there FBI expert colon infract

389
00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,039
stores can live six to twelve months in unprotected.

390
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 2: And god, what we're talking about another FBI expert.

391
00:19:13,759 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 6: Or But it was made it very clear. It was

392
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,960
it was below my name, it's James Fitzgerald, FBI PROFI

393
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,680
then below that I finally called this guy and I said,

394
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,400
I hurt your bad mouthing. I don't even know who

395
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,440
the l you are. You're bed mouthing, mate, And he goes,

396
00:19:29,599 --> 00:19:32,319
you should. I said, I want to play my interview.

397
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,720
I'm going to hold the phone up. You'd listen real tightly, okay,

398
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,039
and he did. I said, did you ere mes say

399
00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:40,759
anything about stores? Now? I said that was there were

400
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:44,519
words listed underneath, and there are the words had said, Well,

401
00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:46,880
all right, I guess I was your fault. I said, yeah,

402
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,400
why didn't you call me instead of bad mouthing. Mind anyway,

403
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,279
he's on the task force and he's the one to

404
00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:55,240
get completely wrong for the next few years, even implicating

405
00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:58,000
a guy, and the FBI was following him doing all

406
00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:00,519
this stuff and he was the wrong guy. That's to gut.

407
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,039
When I went to Director Mueller with our team and

408
00:20:03,079 --> 00:20:05,440
other people in the room said, yeah, you're following a

409
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,559
long guy here. It's someone like him, but not him.

410
00:20:08,599 --> 00:20:11,759
We have too much we know about him, and thanks,

411
00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:14,160
no sinks, And they still follow him for another year

412
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,000
until the guys shoot them. Then they backed off. A

413
00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:20,160
new task force was formed, which then perfectly matched the

414
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,880
profile we put together within a week or two after

415
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,359
your early anthe extra attacks. So you're asking me about media, stop, Yeah,

416
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,559
there's just two examples right up front where it did

417
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,559
affect an investigation, at least on a personal level between

418
00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:35,240
some investigators themselves.

419
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,559
Speaker 2: Let me jump in here with the question. Then the FBI,

420
00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:41,720
in our experience in the Colonial Parkway murders and in

421
00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:47,640
other cases, often seems publicity averse, media averse. They don't

422
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,839
want to do interviews, and they don't do a lot

423
00:20:50,839 --> 00:20:55,440
of interviews yet in these examples, you're appearing on CNN

424
00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:59,680
and other national programs. Is that part of the strategy

425
00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:02,160
in those examples, Yeah.

426
00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 6: Good question, And of course we can't. No FBI agent

427
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,359
can go or FBI employee could go in front of

428
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,720
the media without express certainly written or verbal approval. And

429
00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:13,480
you better have an email covering yourself strongly by the

430
00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:16,599
time I was leaving, So yeah, you have approval of headquarters.

431
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,480
And I was the only time I sent an FBI headquarters,

432
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,359
which of course it's nickname is the Puzzle Palace, And

433
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,079
you want to stay away from there as much as

434
00:21:24,079 --> 00:21:25,880
you can if your goal in life is to be

435
00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:29,079
a guy that arrests bad people and puts them in jail.

436
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,640
But after nine to eleven, they just had me up

437
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,599
there doing stuff, and some of these voices got to

438
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,559
know me and say, Noah, we think he'd be good

439
00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:37,400
in front of the media. How will we put you

440
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,960
out there? And so for certain cases, while we're trying

441
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,680
to touch people and keep a case alive. Although anthrax

442
00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:46,559
it was very alive, which was like late October early

443
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,400
November of two thousand and one, they just felt, let's

444
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,640
get someone out there. They felt they could trust. He

445
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:55,119
kind of looks okay, speaks okay, and that's what they

446
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,000
authorized me to do. I did Time Magazine, CNN, they

447
00:21:59,079 --> 00:22:02,079
got one of the CBS morning shows or something. But

448
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,759
there wasn't a whole lot I could do with my

449
00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:07,079
early days of forensic linguistics. I was in Georgetown taking

450
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,559
my graduate classes. But the Anthraxe writer was so farce.

451
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,799
In my twenty nine words or something total, some of

452
00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:16,400
them repeated there wasn't a whole lot I could do there.

453
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,960
But yeah, agents can't talk to the media unless they're

454
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,759
given the authority to do and that's rare and infrequent,

455
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,519
and it only happens in between maybe a law and

456
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,680
investigation something like that.

457
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 2: So there's often a strategic reason for putting a guy

458
00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:36,680
like yourself on TV or in a print interview or whatever.

459
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,119
It isn't something that just happens. It's all part of

460
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:40,759
a plan.

461
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,039
Speaker 6: It absolutely is, And it could be something like a

462
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,559
year or two after a conviction and the person's in

463
00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:49,920
prison and some like a documentary crew. That's one thing

464
00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:52,720
where city agents can still go on TV and do that.

465
00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:55,440
I remember what year was it, maybe two thousand and

466
00:22:55,519 --> 00:22:58,000
five or so. The people know how to be like

467
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,519
the people from Criminal Minds. They just had their season

468
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,839
and they wanted to interview some real FBI agents and

469
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,200
the bureau permitted them to do it, real FBI profilers.

470
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,400
So they actually authorized to come to the studio at

471
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,720
the FBI Academy and we sat down and if anyone

472
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,039
owns the first season DVD of Criminal Minds, how do

473
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:23,359
I do downloaded? Well, the bonus features May and jim plemente. Yeah, okay, yeah,

474
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,640
And we had just talking away and I was upon

475
00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:27,839
time doing that May even two thousand and four, two

476
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,480
thousand and five, I forget. Then they fired me afterwards

477
00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:33,000
be their technical advisor a few years after that, but

478
00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:35,680
yet I've been on I think America's Most Wanted twice.

479
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,079
Back in the day, we would sometimes go out to

480
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,279
communities like where a serial rapist or chiller is plying

481
00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:44,000
his trade, and they'd want to get publicity out there,

482
00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:46,640
and regular chief for the head of detectives could do it.

483
00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:50,400
But they know, especially in smaller town but sometimes larger cities,

484
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,920
bringing in a FBI profileer that'll generate a lot of

485
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,359
interest on the media coverage and that would then help them.

486
00:23:57,519 --> 00:23:59,519
We're very careful what we put out there, and Bill,

487
00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:02,319
we also know when we're doing these interviews it's very

488
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,000
likely we're talking to the killer or the rapist, whoever

489
00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:07,599
it may be, right, and we're careful on how we

490
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,160
put that out there and the exact words we use.

491
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,799
We learned a long time ago with a serial bomber,

492
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,720
he doesn't really know what he's doing with his bombs

493
00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:17,680
at they're little toys. You don't want to attempt really

494
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,799
any serial killer or potential serial killer with that. You

495
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,839
actually pay them compliments. Ruben. He can make a bomb

496
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:27,400
now if only he told us what his ideology was.

497
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,599
And sometimes that person then will come forth and give

498
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:31,400
you that information.

499
00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

500
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:41,160
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

501
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,079
mindover Murder.

502
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 5: Since you mentioned Criminal Minds, I don't want to slip

503
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,680
past it real quick because we all know that it's

504
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,079
one of my two favorite shows.

505
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 3: The work that you did on Criminal Minds.

506
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 5: I think my favorite that I know you worked on

507
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,440
from season one was Empty Planet, and that was about

508
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,200
a serial bomber in Seattle when you were working as

509
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,000
a technical eyes are on a show like Criminal minds.

510
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 3: What does that mean? Precisely?

511
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 5: Does that mean you're given the script and they ask you, hey, Fitz,

512
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:10,720
is this right? Do you suggest dialogue? Are you on

513
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:13,880
the set? What does that technically mean when you're working

514
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:14,799
on a show like that?

515
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about that which you're not

516
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:20,160
watching us right now. I'm holding my book up and

517
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,920
I actually devote a whole chapter to my work on

518
00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:25,519
what it was like because in the book four, which

519
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,359
again just came out and brendan form ebook audiobook now

520
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,720
rated by me, I definitely go into my time. It's

521
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,079
about dividing the hands fifteen or so chapters, finishing up

522
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,000
my FBI career, then the other fifteen my quote unquote

523
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:43,759
retirement years using hand air quotes if you're not watching us,

524
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,599
and very busy in retirement excluding criminal Minds. I met

525
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,200
the guys I was still in the f FBI and

526
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,039
met the showrunner and a few others for lunch out

527
00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:54,720
in La Jim Clement. He was there, their wives were there.

528
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:56,880
It was a fun night, of course, a few drinks

529
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,359
in them. The wives profile them under the table. I

530
00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:02,200
had a job and this do it good. You're beautiful,

531
00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:06,519
you're young and admit and love you. Oh they were

532
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:08,920
nice and attractive, word and all that stuff. But yeah,

533
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,839
they hired me and it was a nice skating I

534
00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:12,799
didn't move to LA I told him I'm non movie.

535
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,960
I wanted to get back to Silly. My youngest son

536
00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:16,640
was in high school. Wanted to be there with him.

537
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,400
So I would do everything as you just suggested, Kristin.

538
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,319
They would send me strips. I would look at them.

539
00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:23,680
I didn't try to change the plot line that didn't

540
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:26,599
certainly be over grammar or punctuation that was on them,

541
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,519
but I would try to add jargon, nomenclature, whatever that

542
00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:35,200
would be more police oriented, more FBI oriented. And yeah,

543
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,119
there's a few scenes I can still go back on.

544
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,720
Potch was in a prison cell with someone or like

545
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,880
an interview room and the guys coming after him. And

546
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,839
you learn early on as a coup people make fun

547
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,079
of cops. I used to wear snap one ties. You

548
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,279
do that so you're the band guy that can't gradual

549
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,759
tize and wrangle you. I don't think many cops wear

550
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,279
ties anymore, which is a good thing. So the first

551
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:55,559
thing Hodge did, he didn't have a snap tie, but

552
00:26:55,599 --> 00:26:58,119
the guys coming after him or posturing that he is.

553
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,279
Then Hods just takes his tie off. This idea and

554
00:27:01,319 --> 00:27:03,599
then it's so at least, no matter what happens in

555
00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:05,240
a flight, the guys are going to grab his tie

556
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:08,319
and shing around the room. So they appreciated that. I'll

557
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,039
never forget. One of the first things I did, a

558
00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:12,200
guy one of the writers sent me a strip and

559
00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:14,480
if one thing in a movie or a mini series

560
00:27:14,519 --> 00:27:16,960
where you have more time, but a show like Frimerlal

561
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:20,119
Minds was very formulaic. You know, there's the opening act,

562
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,440
then four acts afterwards, and the time was so strict.

563
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,759
Every word really was counted against that ticking clock. And

564
00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:29,640
this one writer came to me with a scene where

565
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,279
a police officer had been killed by a serial killer

566
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,960
and the team was down in this town. But he's

567
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,319
also kill other people. And this writer is struggling with

568
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,920
how do I reduce this dialogue from this chief talking

569
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,880
to his officers, talking to Potch and the others, And

570
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,759
let's say to him, I said, are you familiar with

571
00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:49,119
the black band that officers put over their badge when

572
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,640
one of their colleagues is killed. If you ever see

573
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,559
a police officer with a black band across his badge

574
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,960
or her badge that made one of their officers killed

575
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,799
in the line of duty, and they're wearing that out

576
00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:01,720
of respect for thirty days. I said, you could just

577
00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:04,359
have the cheap hand those out to his men, and

578
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,480
your dialogue can be shifting elsewhere, because Fitz, I don't

579
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,279
believe it. You saved me forty five seconds of dialogue

580
00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:13,880
makes my own show. And I watched this and he

581
00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:16,359
was very poignant how they did it, but yeah, there

582
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,720
was dialogue on top of it so they could make

583
00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:21,559
their time restrict and the series worked out well.

584
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 2: It's also a very compelling visual when you put the

585
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,759
idea in his head.

586
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 6: It is and he thoroughly enjoyed that. And a lot

587
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,440
of cops in law enforcement like that show, and they

588
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,440
knew that there was a technical advisor behind it. I

589
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,759
don't just tell them I'm watching something. They've got someone

590
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,640
retired helping them out of here. They're getting the language right,

591
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:40,200
even some of these British shaers I watch, having worked

592
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,400
with new Starting the Artist a few times, Yeah and

593
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,640
again I put it in here. I get to meet

594
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,160
the actors and there's some pictures in the book, and

595
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:49,079
of course Jim Clemente was active with them too. He

596
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,000
became a staff writer after a while, and he actually

597
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,880
took over. He retired from the FBI, moved out to

598
00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:57,920
LA and we had a handshake agreement early on. You

599
00:28:58,039 --> 00:29:01,440
take over full time technical advisor. I'll help you out.

600
00:29:01,519 --> 00:29:03,279
And it was fine. I still went out there and

601
00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:06,200
helped them break stories every June. As you may know,

602
00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:09,960
season nine, they introduced Alex Slake, who was portrayed by

603
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,759
Gene Tripplehorn, and they couldn't think of a background story.

604
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:14,200
He gave her this is of course in the book.

605
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,960
And I'm in the room and I'm listening to them,

606
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:17,720
and they slew me out. I wasn't getting paid at

607
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,720
this point, but they slew me out. I was staying

608
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,200
with Jim, and I said, you guys have met my fiance,

609
00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:26,039
Natalie Shilling. Yeah, a NISE person. She's a linguist, a

610
00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:29,960
forensic linguist, and she teaches at Georgetown University. Why don't

611
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,720
you combine her with my background as a profiler and

612
00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:36,880
have her having worked the unibomb case as a rookie

613
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,039
and helped solve it paced great. Her name's Alex Slake,

614
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,319
and within the first episode they introduce her and she's

615
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:47,079
the real Natalie. My now wife really liked it because

616
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,640
she'd be teaching classes. Her cell phone would go off.

617
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,519
I got to go teaching assistant, you take over and

618
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,599
now he says, I'd love to do that someday. Just

619
00:29:54,599 --> 00:29:57,519
get a Bowe call and at the teacher. You could

620
00:29:57,559 --> 00:29:59,559
probably relate to that. Oh yeah, I said, yeah, they

621
00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:03,079
probably aren't too many full time Georgetown professors. Also a

622
00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:06,319
FBI profiles, so a little bit of literary license there.

623
00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:08,480
But the fans liked her. She did two years in

624
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,960
the show. She did great. We saw the Las Vegas

625
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,960
at the two hundredth episode party which I was invited.

626
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,039
Brought Natalie and it's the first time I met Jean

627
00:30:16,119 --> 00:30:18,759
triple Horn and introduced Oh, they came up. They're the ones.

628
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,480
It was Fit you're based on Fits and Natalie, and

629
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,240
they came up with you and your character, and Jean

630
00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:27,519
looked at us, took a pregnant pause, said hi, mom

631
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:31,680
and dad, nice to meet you. Created her character, which

632
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,920
actually we did, she'd already hired. We just gave her

633
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,839
the backstory and another part there. Yeah, sort of art

634
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,119
imitating life. So that's just one story. There, But yeah,

635
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,640
good memories of that show, and we kept it as

636
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,599
real as we possibly could. But no, I wasn't their boss,

637
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,599
and I would give advice sometime, and I don't think

638
00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:51,920
the show runner they want to see this yet another

639
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,920
car chase well one of the TV and shootouts and

640
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,119
all that stuff. And I said, all right, but I'll

641
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,680
give it to you real. You do with it what

642
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,119
you want real quickly. I put this in the book too.

643
00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:03,960
I was in hired a few years later by the

644
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,599
TV show Sleepy Hollow. Do you remember that? I was

645
00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:09,519
on two seasons. I think it was based on an

646
00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:12,119
FBI agent in upstate New York in the town of

647
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,759
Sleepy Hollow, based on the original story, if you will.

648
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,200
I'm the tech advisor on this, along with another retired

649
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,119
Femaiale agent, And that was tough because there were great

650
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,000
story lines. But she's chasing this headless horseman and demons

651
00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:29,559
from l and other creatures from all different walks of life.

652
00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:32,079
Then they'd have her break into the evidence from the

653
00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:35,119
agent and take evidence sounds just to make the case.

654
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,559
She wasn't like doing bad stuff with You can't have

655
00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:41,640
an agent seal evidence and fire locked up and but

656
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,000
she puts it back at the end. Okay, that doesn't live.

657
00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:46,680
But they still went and did it, so Limsa, and

658
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,200
then they paid me every episode and my name was

659
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,119
in the credits. So a fun show. Nothing against it,

660
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,720
but the polar opposite of technical advising for criminal minds

661
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:56,799
on particular show.

662
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,519
Speaker 2: So wait, Jim, you're okay with the demons from Hell,

663
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440
but stealing evidence from the evidence from that's where you

664
00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:04,240
draw the line.

665
00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,319
Speaker 6: I couldn't disprove that our demons from Hell are getting

666
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:09,960
involved in FBI cases, but I do know you can't

667
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,400
be in FBI agents fair enough. Yeah, So it was

668
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,640
fun doing that. And of course with Manhunt Unibomber, it's

669
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,359
a whole chapter on that. It was based on true facts,

670
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,799
and they used my name and a few other people's names,

671
00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:23,680
but they took some liberties there too, which I argued

672
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,640
a bit. Didn't even answer their calls for a week.

673
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,759
Finally we did some compromising And I always say that

674
00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:31,799
mini series it tells the story very well. It's about

675
00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:35,440
eighty five percent accurate in terms of being truthful. The

676
00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:38,240
scenes where the Fitz character is sitting across the table

677
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:41,039
from the Kazinski character that they didn't happen, and I've

678
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:42,880
talked about it. I don't shared before. I believe right

679
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,400
you have, but it makes sure two A list actors

680
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,400
they wanted to put the same scenes.

681
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: Right compelling dialogue television.

682
00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 6: And I also include in the book I knew this

683
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:54,759
was going to happen when that episode aired, or those

684
00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:57,559
episodes in that there's some agent who thinks he's some

685
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,839
kind of a you know, a poor man's Ernest Hemingway.

686
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,759
He wrote this article on this web based blog and

687
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,920
criticizing the heck on me, and I finally responded, I

688
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,960
don't care if anyone likes the show or not. You

689
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,400
don't like the directing, the acting, the cinematography, that's fine.

690
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,400
But this guy was attacking me personally. So I addressed

691
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,440
him in the book too, and I could basically call

692
00:33:17,559 --> 00:33:19,920
him at the end. He's the Jason Blair of the FBI,

693
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:23,279
and he wanted to remember that fake foot reporter of

694
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:26,440
the New York Times. That's the nickname I gave this guy. Yeah,

695
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,640
you just can't keep everyone happy in that regard. But yeah,

696
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,759
so I put the good stuff in there, the band stuff,

697
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,319
and finish up my lambst ten years of my FBI

698
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,160
career and the next seventeen years. Hard to believe I've

699
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,000
been retired that long. I'm still keeping busy and still

700
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,640
stuff I got out in there this day. But now

701
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,839
I guess I'll talk about it on the Cold Red podcast.

702
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: Speaking of controversial cases, you touch on the John Benet

703
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:52,000
Ramsey case in the book. I know there are limitations

704
00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:55,200
because the case is still not solved. What can you

705
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,400
tell us about what you wrote in the new book,

706
00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:01,720
Journey to the Center of the Mind about the Ramsey case.

707
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm not a shand of this at all.

708
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,960
I did a mini or a documentary with Jim Clemente,

709
00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:09,760
Laura Richards and a few other folks did aired on

710
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,239
CBS in twenty sixteen, doctor Henry Lee and others, and

711
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,519
we rendered some opinions at the end about that case,

712
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,079
the four hour documentary on the John Bana Ramsey murder,

713
00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:23,239
and the Ramsey family didn't like our opinions and they

714
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,280
shoot us. We were fully indemnified. And this production company,

715
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,760
an insurance company, made all the decisions. I've actually settled

716
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,199
and of court, I have no idea what it was

717
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,039
settled for. But that case was over. But the lawyer

718
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:37,679
said from now on fits you're on your own anything

719
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,000
you said, So when I don't do anymore, I don't

720
00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:42,719
comment on booke chilled the girl watched the series from

721
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,159
twenty sixteen, figure out what do you think after that?

722
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,800
But I wanted to clarify one part of the story

723
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,280
that really hadn't been talked about, and that involved professor

724
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,599
friend of mine from Vassar College, who I recommended to

725
00:34:56,079 --> 00:34:59,840
the Boulder Police Department to look at some writings, look

726
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,079
at the course the three page ransom letter, and then

727
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:05,039
look at the writings of any suspects involved. He did.

728
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,000
He had a strong conclusion. He put that in writing.

729
00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:12,920
He sent it to Boulder PD, the Bolder Prosecutor's offices.

730
00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:15,519
We want you to come out and testify. He was

731
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,519
a day away from getting on the plane. And the

732
00:35:18,639 --> 00:35:22,400
Ramsey defense team they had all had lawyers. The mother

733
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,519
had a lawyer, the father had a lawyer, the young

734
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:27,119
son had a lawyer, like an older son had a lawyer.

735
00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:29,480
They said, you sure you want to bring him out

736
00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:31,880
because look at this letter he wrote us a year ago.

737
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,639
And the same professor wrote a letter saying, we know

738
00:35:36,119 --> 00:35:38,719
I know you didn't till your child. No parents would

739
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,599
do that. Ever, no parents should ever quarm a child.

740
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,559
Of course, you and I know that's not true, and

741
00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:47,159
your audience does. He was a brilliant stallar, not a

742
00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:51,440
linguist English language. And basically the prosecutor saw this letter

743
00:35:51,639 --> 00:35:55,000
and said, the professor, we can't use you because of

744
00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:57,320
what you wrote. And he swore up and down that

745
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,519
he ded or remembered sending that letter a year ago.

746
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:02,320
It's like two pages long, two to three pages long,

747
00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:04,639
and it's out there in line if you want to

748
00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:06,199
look it up. I don't put the whole thing in

749
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,159
my book, but certain pieces of it. And they basically

750
00:36:09,199 --> 00:36:15,079
called him testimonially, if that's even a word, testimonially challenged.

751
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:17,400
So if he went up on the sand or he

752
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:19,760
was ever going to testify to his report, I don't

753
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,119
even go into what the report said. I never actually

754
00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:25,000
read it, but if they wanted him to testify, it

755
00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:29,079
probably had some important evidence. So the professor calls me,

756
00:36:29,119 --> 00:36:32,840
he's almost he's in crying. Jim, I didn't remember writing

757
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,239
that letter. I really screwed up. I said, all right,

758
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,239
let's see what happens. I called the Boulder PD. The

759
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,199
lieutenant basically hangs up on me, but I'm the one

760
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:45,119
that recommended this guy. And then I retire and this again,

761
00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:47,519
this isn't a book. The end of this chapter, I

762
00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:49,559
retire and I said, you know what, I always felt

763
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:53,400
bad about what happened. Let me get Natalie Shilling from Georgetown,

764
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:57,719
my friend Ron Leonard from HOSTRA, and me arguably three

765
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,800
of the best forensic linguists in the US chimly most experienced.

766
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:05,880
Let's volunteer our time to the Boulder PD to say, hey,

767
00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:08,119
we're going to help you with this case. We know

768
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:11,199
what went wrong wasn't really my fault, but it went

769
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,280
wrong back there in ninety six ninety seven. The chief said,

770
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,639
either say, Jim Fitzgerald that gave us this professor. Yeah,

771
00:37:18,679 --> 00:37:21,760
but I have two other professors. Thanks for no thanks.

772
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,639
I send them another email. I the mind back out

773
00:37:24,679 --> 00:37:27,159
of it. These two professors said they'll help you. He

774
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,440
never responded, Wow, yikes, this is in the book. Yeah,

775
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:33,920
so I cover that, and it's very thrustrating. The stay

776
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,239
should be solved the first day. It wasn't. I'll leave

777
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,880
it at that, and the CBS special was still floating

778
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,480
around out there somewhere online. But yeah, so whoever killed

779
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,559
the girl. I'm not saying publicly at this point, but

780
00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:47,840
people can make up their own minds that they have

781
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,840
all the evidence involved in this case.

782
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,559
Speaker 5: So, fitz we don't want to spoil the whole book,

783
00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:54,519
of course, we want people to action to buy it

784
00:37:54,599 --> 00:37:56,719
and read it and listen to the audio book as well.

785
00:37:57,079 --> 00:37:59,400
So can you tell us a little bit about what

786
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,360
you're doing in the meantime. I know that you were teaching,

787
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,360
but you also told me that you're taking a little

788
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:05,599
bit of a hiatus on that.

789
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,079
Speaker 3: So fill us in. What is Jim Fitzgerald doing in meantime?

790
00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:12,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was teaching grad classes, but we're not on

791
00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:15,400
hold for now, which is fine. It's good timing because

792
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,239
their Cold Red podcast is really kicked in with this

793
00:38:18,519 --> 00:38:23,079
Center City rapist or Collins, Colorado Sheirol rapist case. I

794
00:38:23,119 --> 00:38:26,480
am promoting the new book now, no appearance is set

795
00:38:26,559 --> 00:38:28,800
as of yet in person, but I finally do a

796
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,320
lot more online now than going to the local library

797
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,599
or even a bookstore. Yeah, so just keeping busy that way,

798
00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:36,519
and I am trying to fill in. So I'm done

799
00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:39,360
writing the book and not reading it, done teaching grad

800
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,679
courses for now, So there are definitely some openings in

801
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,800
my schedule, so I'm thinking of getting back to my

802
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,639
drum lessons, which I started last summer but then got

803
00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:49,639
really busy. But I do a little bit of consulting

804
00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:51,760
work on the side, but other than that, just for

805
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,320
the first time in my seventy years. Yeah, and again,

806
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,480
the podcast keeps me busy. We're always trying to get

807
00:38:56,559 --> 00:38:59,000
new gats and we're going to have you guys back on.

808
00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:01,039
I know there's a lot going on on Bill and

809
00:39:01,079 --> 00:39:04,159
your sister's case, and I've talked to you enough times

810
00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:06,639
about the murder of your sister, and I'll just say that,

811
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,480
as hard as it is for you to hear and

812
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:11,159
here on this podcast, over the last this whole summer,

813
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,800
we've had the father of a rape and murder victim.

814
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,280
You're the co host of this podcast, Bill, and he's

815
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,679
a temporary co host of our podcast, and every time

816
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,599
we say it and bring it up, but he's a

817
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:25,039
trooper and he's willing to go along. His daughter never

818
00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:28,599
should have been murdered. This rapist should have been identified

819
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,039
earlier on the public should have known about him. The

820
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:35,400
PHILLYPD it's election coming up, and the mayor and the

821
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,800
chief of police didn't want certainly facts being put out there,

822
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,800
and they've all been a five block radius in Philadelphia.

823
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,400
It's just so anyway, that's see being us very busy

824
00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:46,920
and yeah, other than I'm just trying to take a

825
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,679
little break here and just enjoying life at the beach

826
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,760
and all that I can do in that regard.

827
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: So in this latest book four of Journey to the

828
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,000
Center of the Mind, Fits, you narrated, whereas you mentioned

829
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,360
and earlier in this podcast that you'd used a professional narrator,

830
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,960
which is fine. What made you decide to use your

831
00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:11,000
voice as the presenter, if you will, because.

832
00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:13,039
Speaker 6: People kept telling me we want to hear you talk,

833
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,760
not just a paid narrator. And again the name was

834
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,800
John Gully did a great job. Nothing against him at all.

835
00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:21,400
But at the same time, people wanted to hear my voice,

836
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:24,000
and people said, hey, your voice is okay. Fits. I'm

837
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:25,840
not sure I would do it full time and doing

838
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,000
commercials things like that, but I said, sure, let me

839
00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:30,960
do that and we'll take it from there. Yeah. So

840
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,920
I was glad to do it, and not the easiest

841
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,320
things to do because every once in a while I

842
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,400
would mispronounce something where there's a noise in the background.

843
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,920
I had a studio set up, but my producer was great,

844
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,840
and he just do this over again. And you don't

845
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,360
just want to put one word in the middle of

846
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,159
a paragraph, so we would do like the whole paragraphs

847
00:40:47,159 --> 00:40:49,800
over so it flows more smoothly. But if you know

848
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,880
what you're doing in front of a you're one of

849
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,599
these audio technic issues. It's so easy for these guys

850
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:56,480
to do. And really appreciated that.

851
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 2: One other question along those lines, Jim, you wrote three

852
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,000
lengthy books in what I would call the traditional method.

853
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,320
That is, you sat down, you chapters worked out, and

854
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,199
you wrote them finger to keyboard, and then in this

855
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,239
last book, you flipped it around and you tried doing

856
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,599
the audio portion first and then turned it more into

857
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,719
a written narrative. Now that you've done it both ways,

858
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,320
do you have a preference between writing first, then recording,

859
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:29,679
or recording first and then turning it into the written paragraph.

860
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,119
Speaker 6: Yeah. I'm not sure every book would work that way,

861
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:35,519
but I set my computer in several different countries actually

862
00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:38,360
writing the first three books, and I just didn't feel

863
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,119
like writing this whole thing out on a keyboard. I

864
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:43,239
did it three times and before I think I counted

865
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,000
written one hundred and sixty chapters, I think, and my

866
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,119
book is really long. A lot of things happened in

867
00:41:48,159 --> 00:41:51,360
my police career inside the building and outside the building,

868
00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:53,719
so that's a long one, a lot of stuff there.

869
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,519
But I just said, no, I'm going to do my voice.

870
00:41:55,599 --> 00:41:59,199
Instead of typing everything, keyboarding it first, sending it off,

871
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,320
getting it published, then reading it again, I can make

872
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,000
it a little bit easier by just narrating it, not

873
00:42:05,039 --> 00:42:08,320
reading it, but narrating it from bullet points and taking

874
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,280
it from there. It just worked best for me, and

875
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:11,639
if I was going to do it again, that's show

876
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:13,599
I would do it. It just worked for me. I

877
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:15,079
know we're running out of time, but I want to

878
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,760
mention one last chapter here. It's a case that you've

879
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,480
never heard of. Most people haven't, certainly outside of the

880
00:42:20,519 --> 00:42:23,039
Philadelphia area. But that is the murder of my friend

881
00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:25,800
Joe Welsh. He was murdered in the late nineties in

882
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,599
the street robbery. Nothing sexy about it. Some thug wanted

883
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:32,519
his money and he bought them. Probably shouldn't have. The

884
00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:35,519
felg shot him, got away. There's a witness description all

885
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:38,360
that stuff, and I told the family I'll use all

886
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,000
my powers, just a profiler FBI to get this case palmed.

887
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:45,159
But it's a state case. It's no FBI jurisdiction. It

888
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:48,880
occurred in my old neighborhood in the Honey section of Philadelphia,

889
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,880
and here I'm going back where I used to ride

890
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,280
bikes and visit my friend. It's actually his older brother.

891
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,599
We were best friends. I was in his wedding, he

892
00:42:56,639 --> 00:42:59,480
was in mine, but Joe was just a few years younger.

893
00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:02,239
Break I hung out with us too, and never could

894
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,480
solve it. And so I wrote the chapter about it.

895
00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:06,519
I put everything in there that I could, the description

896
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:08,599
of the guy, whatever, then I'm doing. I told my

897
00:43:08,679 --> 00:43:11,440
buddy John Brother. I said, first of all, you okay

898
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,639
with me writing this chapter. They're very private people. He said, yeah,

899
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,679
of course, I said him the chapter. He approved of it,

900
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,320
and I said, John, here's what else I'm going to do.

901
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,039
It's not a whole lot of money nowadays, but I'm

902
00:43:21,079 --> 00:43:23,199
going to put twenty five thousand dollars up of my

903
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,360
own money to get this guy arrested and condicted. Of course,

904
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,280
he said, all right, if you want to do that.

905
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,920
So this is actually the first public forum, your podcast

906
00:43:32,159 --> 00:43:34,079
or where I said this. It's in the book, of course.

907
00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:37,199
So yeah, I'm hoping to solve a case from nineteen

908
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,360
ninety eight and of this guy a street crime again. No,

909
00:43:41,639 --> 00:43:43,400
this guy may have been a serial offender, but we

910
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,519
really think this was his first homicide because he was

911
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,239
pretty sloppy at it, although he still managed to successfully

912
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,239
kill my friend with the two gunshots to him. Yeah.

913
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,719
I don't want to end on a sad note, but

914
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,119
I do want just everyone to know that if you

915
00:43:55,159 --> 00:43:57,000
look at the book and if you have any connection

916
00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:58,880
to pill it up to you going back to the nineties,

917
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:02,039
anyone talked about the murder of Joe Welsh, please contact me.

918
00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:07,519
My website's James R. Fitzgerald dot com. Book information. There's

919
00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:11,280
bonus times about the book, pictures and documents, things like that.

920
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,039
Check it out there and you know anything about Joe

921
00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:16,440
Welsh and his murder. I will get the PHILLYPD back

922
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,920
in bold and let's get this case. Old Bill. I

923
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,039
know you can relate to that too with your with

924
00:44:21,119 --> 00:44:21,519
your sister.

925
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, and it's a I'm amazed you're still working

926
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,199
even though you're long retired.

927
00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:31,159
Speaker 6: I am trying and a few other irons in the fire.

928
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,679
I'm quite ready to go public with them, yed some

929
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,360
TV stup. We'll just see how that plays out. I'll

930
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,840
leave you with this big anniversary is happening right now.

931
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,119
It's thirty years ago last month that I showed up

932
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:45,199
at the unibomb Tank Wars in San Francisco, and coming

933
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,960
up September nineteenth, that'll be the thirtieth anniversary god or

934
00:44:49,039 --> 00:44:51,360
to believe, of the publication of the Manifesto.

935
00:44:51,559 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 2: I remember that.

936
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,119
Speaker 6: And next April third will be the thirtieth anniversary of

937
00:44:55,199 --> 00:44:57,840
Kazinski's arrest. I've already done in the New York Times

938
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,559
interview and at iHeartRadio. Thing they're differing. They recorded at

939
00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:03,840
the I played on the nineteenth. We're around that. We're

940
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,559
into a special Cold Red podcast we dropped on eighteenth

941
00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:10,000
or nineteen about the Manifesto. So yeah, we'll keep up

942
00:45:10,039 --> 00:45:12,599
on this and see that goes. Kajitski's been going over

943
00:45:12,639 --> 00:45:17,039
two years now. Good riddance there. Unfortunately, with these young shooters,

944
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,199
a CEO shooter and others that somehow claimed that the

945
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,880
Unibomber seeks to them through his writings and his philosophy,

946
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:25,559
and I want to get the word out there that

947
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:28,119
he may have been brilliant with multiple degrees, but he

948
00:45:28,199 --> 00:45:30,400
was basically a low life murderer, and none of what

949
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,719
he posited about the evils so technology was really original.

950
00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:36,559
He stole from a lot of other people in this manifesto,

951
00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:40,320
including Jacques Yule, a French philossoper from the sixties and

952
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,280
seventies in France. So anyway, yeah, so things like that'll

953
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,760
be keeping me busy and we'll see where light takes me.

954
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,800
But I'm still swimming three days a week and biking.

955
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,840
The brain is still working pretty good. I hope that

956
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,679
if I listen to this afterwards, I absolutely lap a

957
00:45:54,679 --> 00:45:55,800
bunch of words, I'll know it's not.

958
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 5: But the book is Journey to the Center of the

959
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,920
Mind Look four. It is available on Fitz's website. It's

960
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,320
also available at Amazon and wherever books are sold. As always,

961
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,599
you have a standing invite with us. We are so

962
00:46:10,639 --> 00:46:12,480
thankful that you took the time to join us today,

963
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,599
and we want to have you back again here very soon.

964
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 6: Let's do exactly that. Let's come back and we'll talk

965
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,599
about even more stuff going on in my life. But

966
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:22,960
thanks again, Christin and Bill. I always enjoy being on

967
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,719
your show, and I know we'll be talking against Sun

968
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,840
and Risen and Bill, you're so invited to the Vidank Society.

969
00:46:29,159 --> 00:46:31,079
Let's try to work out a trip there and show

970
00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:33,599
it off here. Yeah, and solve another cold case if

971
00:46:33,639 --> 00:46:34,480
we can.

972
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely we love that.

973
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of

974
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,119
mind Ever Murders. Thank you so much for listening. We'll

975
00:46:41,159 --> 00:46:42,079
see you next time.

976
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

977
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,440
Another Dog Productions.

978
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristen.

979
00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit.

980
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.

981
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,199
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

982
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,159
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

983
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

984
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:18,840
Murders on Facebook.

985
00:47:18,639 --> 00:47:21,639
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

986
00:47:21,679 --> 00:47:23,320
Bill Thomas five six.

987
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.