WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:07.000 Hi, I'm Kevin Triple from Willoughby, Ohio. I play at 2 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.320 Briardaloe Golf Course. 3 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.039 Welcome to Golf Smarter. 4 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:14.039 This is the Douglas Gram from Dayton, Tennessee, and I 5 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:18.039 play at Tennessee Hills Golf Course. This is Golf Smarter 6 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:21.719 Number oneenty eighteen. A good way to wrap up what 7 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.519 flow is and how to fall into it is relentless acceptance. 8 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:28.679 I think the greatest sin as it relates to performance 9 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:32.079 psychology in the game of golf, is allowing one swing 10 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:35.799 to impact multiple, one situation to impact multiple, one bad 11 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.280 balance to impact multiple. We play an imperfect game in 12 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:42.679 imperfect air on imperfect surfaces. If we don't have an 13 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:45.600 acceptance attitude, it's going to be a little harder than 14 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:47.640 it should be. And I will say that maybe some 15 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:50.280 of your listeners, it takes time. If you have the 16 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:53.320 attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration, 17 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:55.000 there's still going to be headwinds, there's still going to 18 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.200 be difficulties. But in time, it's more or less a 19 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:01.320 rationalization that this is the better path. In golf contexts, 20 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:04.079 mental toughness really is a rationalization. But this is the 21 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:06.760 best path. I'm gonna choose not to respond to this 22 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:09.439 in a highly emotional state because I know that a 23 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:12.079 highly emotional state is going to impact the next maybe 24 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:13.359 even impacts one after that. 25 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.519 Watch how your Superpowers sore in a mindless state with 26 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:29.680 performance coach John Shramp. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, 27 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:32.959 tips and insights from great golf minds to help you 28 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:37.280 lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, 29 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.599 Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast. 30 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:42.680 John, Right, how are we doing doing great? 31 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:47.439 I'm interested in having this conversation. I'm always interested in 32 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:51.760 having a conversation with somebody who has studied and is 33 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:56.519 putting the flow state the mental game into use at 34 00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:00.079 new levels. And you reached out to me, and I 35 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.920 really appreciate that, But you have a fascinating golf history 36 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.479 which I want to go first, so we established that credibility. 37 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:11.599 I recently had someone reach out to me that wanted 38 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.599 to talk about the mental game, but they didn't want 39 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:18.120 to talk about golf, and I said, sorry, I don't 40 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:19.960 want to interview you if you don't want to talk 41 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.240 about golf. You just want to talk about corporate heads 42 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:26.439 being you know, smarter no, I don't care. So let's 43 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:30.840 start with your golf journey, which brought you to where 44 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:33.080 we are going to discuss more. 45 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.439 Sure, yeah, Fret, thank you so much for having me. 46 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:41.719 I started golf. I was bit by the bug. I 47 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:45.840 believe it four or five years old. Uncle uncle was 48 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.000 heavily into golf that nobody in my family outside of 49 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:51.759 my uncle was into golf. We would visit him once 50 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.280 a week or once a year for about a week 51 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:56.560 and that was just my golf week for two or 52 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.439 three years. And you know, it's just one of those 53 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.680 things where you know, you don't see a ton of 54 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:04.120 them here and there. It's I think it's popping up 55 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:06.439 back into the game, but just a little pitch and putt, 56 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:10.680 you know, maybe eighteen fifty to sixty yard holes. And 57 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:12.520 that's that's where I fell in love with the game. 58 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:15.599 I could not get away from it in a way 59 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:18.520 that I think. You know, it's six or seven. My 60 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:21.960 parents were, Okay, well, if that's how you want to 61 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.639 spend your time, go for it. Let's do it. You know, 62 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:28.479 a similar store is many getting dropped off at six 63 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.639 seven am, not getting picked up till six seven pm. 64 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.039 At a small golf course called Raccoon Ron or So 65 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:39.599 Indiana over in northeast Indiana, and very fortunate they're the 66 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:42.639 guy that owned the place, actually played the tour. He 67 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:45.319 played ten years in Asia, a couple of years in Europe, 68 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:48.439 and then one maybe two years here on the tour 69 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:53.280 in the US. Very tight with Payne Stewart. His name 70 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:57.039 is Danny Hepler. It's actually I think actually a pallber 71 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:59.639 in the funeral there. But he really cut his teeth 72 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.680 in Asia with pain and so many stories. But has 73 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.360 it related to me? Is it related to so many 74 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.840 the juniors there? We were able to get, you know, 75 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.319 all these lessons, all of these stories, all of these 76 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:14.159 you know, he knew it, he already played it, he'd 77 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:16.959 done it. So we had this great role model to 78 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:19.800 look up to for you know, ten twelve years where 79 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.600 I started competitive golf at seven and a you know, 80 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:26.879 in accordance with many other juniors, just I want the tour. 81 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:28.480 I want to play at that high level. I want 82 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.160 to play at the highest level I can handle. Pursued 83 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:34.720 it rather fervently. Was challenged by a high school coach 84 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:36.519 to just say, hey, how bad do you want it? 85 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.560 Let's push it, and all the way up until about 86 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.720 eighteen years old. I mean took it six seven, eight 87 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:45.680 hour days at the golf course. Really that was fun. 88 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.360 It was just fun. It never was anything but fun. 89 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.600 Late in my AGGA career, late in my junior career, 90 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.000 things started turning. It really started to get to a 91 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:01.040 point where I was pursuing the idea of Okay, if 92 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:03.000 this is going to happen, this is going to happen, 93 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:07.879 this is going to happen. Nerve, anxiety, fear, etc. Maybe 94 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.519 even a little depression kind of hit. I was able 95 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:14.680 to sign with a mid major at ball State. I 96 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:19.240 stayed there for three months, transferred out. Nerve anxiety was 97 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:21.399 too much to sleep, too much to bear, too much 98 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:24.519 to eat, too much to do anything. Really turned into 99 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:27.240 a dark period at least in my life. But it 100 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:29.399 was one of those things that taught me a lesson 101 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.639 of Okay, I'm putting all this effort into something I 102 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:35.600 love so much. How can I hate it? And you 103 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:37.480 know it is in that moment there I realized, Okay, 104 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.959 psychology is something that I need to invest my time in. 105 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:42.680 I didn't realize it'd be a career at that point, 106 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.800 but I was able to sit down with doctor Bob 107 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:49.000 Winders for a few sessions, and I think. 108 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:50.639 We've had him on the show multiple times. 109 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:53.839 Yeah, great, great resource. He's been an encouragement all the 110 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:56.680 way throughout this experience for me. And in that moment, 111 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.279 I realized, Okay, I think I know what I want 112 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.360 to do now. I still love competing. I play at 113 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:04.480 the highest level as I possibly can. Was fortunate enough 114 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:08.319 to make the US Midydam last year and a good 115 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:10.879 old eighty seventy seven was all I could muster. But 116 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.240 I just enjoyed being there. My perspective is completely in 117 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:18.079 a different light, but golf has always been kind of 118 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:20.839 the greatest joy and the greatest pained in that sense. 119 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:24.680 And I realized during my experiences at All State, during 120 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:27.399 my experiences in college golf, that I think a lot 121 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:31.079 of athletes go through that. In golf and many other sports, 122 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.639 you put in thousands of hours of you know, your childhood, 123 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:38.439 really in hopes of okay, am I good enough? Right? 124 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:42.879 So in twenty twenty March twenty twenty, actually right when 125 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.160 COVID hit I decided to start a PhD. I started 126 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.519 studying flow state. That is kind of my expertise currently, 127 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:54.160 but it's been a joy to help athletes in similar life, 128 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.040 many of them in a different place than I was, 129 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:59.639 is still enjoying it to a sense. But you know, 130 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:01.680 this game has probably so much joy and so much 131 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.480 passion that there's no way I can leave it. 132 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:10.360 Incredible story. Thank you, and I appreciate your honesty and 133 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.959 your openness to be able to discuss it. When you 134 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:18.000 were playing at your best before I guess before you 135 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:20.040 got to college and you were really obsessed with the 136 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:25.199 whole thing, at what point did you get to start 137 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:30.720 recognizing that you were crossing over into a dark side, 138 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:34.399 if we can call it that. Yeah, and that fear 139 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:38.160 and anxiety and it was starting to creep in. Was 140 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.160 it your golf game that was prompting that? 141 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:46.120 It was the scale at home? I was losing ten 142 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.519 pounds every tournament that it played in, And I think 143 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:53.199 at that point I knew that it was intense. I 144 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:56.879 knew that it was something that I cared about. I 145 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.480 think as I had conversation in groups with guys that 146 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:01.680 I had mind, or at least guys that I still 147 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.800 could beat up on the golf course, I'm like, are 148 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.120 you guys feeling this? Are you guys not sleeping or 149 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:10.560 you guys not eating, And now that I'm tight with 150 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:13.959 several guys that are playing the tours, like, okay, there's 151 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.360 a different mentality, there's an easier mentality. There's a little 152 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:20.920 bit of a view on the sport of you on 153 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:22.720 the game that is a little different than maybe I 154 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:23.519 had in the moment. 155 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:32.039 And were you losing weight because of the anxiety of performance, 156 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:34.279 anxiety of playing competitively? 157 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:38.039 Yeah, I think we all have seasons of life where 158 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:41.120 we have big days, right, we all have whether it's 159 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.279 related to the game, whether it's related to life. We 160 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.679 all have moments where we're just like, I'm not sure 161 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:48.519 if I can keep this down. I'm not sure if 162 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.559 I can keep a full meal with me. Right in 163 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.799 those moments, I think when it got really dark, it 164 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:57.440 really was just Okay, I know I'm not going to 165 00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:59.559 sleep tonight. I know I'm not going to eat tonight. 166 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:02.039 I'm going to be lucky if a granola bar gets down. 167 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:05.440 But it was still worth it. It was still worth 168 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:07.600 to get out there and just try my best, and 169 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.320 in that moment the results are still there. But I 170 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:15.519 think at some point you just start breaking down, why 171 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:22.279 was it worth it? Then? Escape? I love the competition, 172 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.399 and I love what I built. And I think when 173 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:29.360 you talk to the very best performers, at least in 174 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:33.399 our game, I think they're tremendous. There are pieces of joy, 175 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.480 pieces of gratitude that get from the game in the 176 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.600 sense of, at least for me, maybe when I'm really tight, 177 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:42.519 when I'm really working on it, fifty six yard pitch, like, 178 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:44.759 I can hit it fifty six, if it's one eighteen, 179 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:46.159 I can hit it one eighteen. I can hit that 180 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:49.639 little draw, I hit that little cut. That was the 181 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:51.600 piece for me where I'm like, Okay, I have really 182 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:54.440 good control this golf ball. I really really enjoy that. 183 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:57.399 But I think when the lights turn on, there's a 184 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:01.840 very different experience there. And that's the at least on 185 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:06.159 the psych side. Now for what I do, there's tremendous 186 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:08.600 amounts of joy that I take from being able to 187 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.639 get a performer, whether it's any of my golf guys 188 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.840 or any of my poker guys, just in a you know, 189 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:17.440 it might be one sentence that gives them kind of 190 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:21.279 the right perspective to be there. You know, I really 191 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.399 enjoyed the grind of it, but at the same time 192 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:27.799 I get just as much joy watching individuals that I'm helping. 193 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:36.320 Obviously with losing weight at every tournament, losing ten pounds 194 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:43.080 coming up for every tournament, it was visually obvious. But 195 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:49.320 what were your parents observing in you and how did 196 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:54.240 they handle it watching you know, the anxiety just take 197 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:54.960 control of you. 198 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:01.799 They were still very supportive of John. You've invested so much, 199 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.480 you know, to be very honest, and now I understand 200 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:08.759 they were investing a lot as well just for me 201 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.519 to be out there. I was. I was mowing twenty 202 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:13.440 yards a week just to be able to afford to 203 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.159 be out in the AJGA. So you know, we've already 204 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.759 made the investment. Let's just go out and try, right. 205 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:22.879 I think when it came to a head when I 206 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.440 did transfer, there was a little bit more at home 207 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.440 that was just okay, you're just you're really struggling, and 208 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.639 they understood that I've been very fortunate I have two 209 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.200 very supportive parents and understanding that you know, there is 210 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.039 a third rail here that you can touch that might 211 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:39.080 be a little much. 212 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:49.799 We got a sense of how your parents were reacting 213 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.000 to what you were going through. How about your coaches? 214 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.600 Where were they was? Everyone? Was anybody pushing you and 215 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:00.120 or were you pushing. 216 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:05.200 I think it was more an internal thing. I really 217 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.039 had a lot of support and I think throughout, as 218 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:12.039 I mentioned Denny on the front end, there of just 219 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:15.679 kind of a very direct, very solid, you know, he 220 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:19.159 skated through his time at Ball State, he transferred to 221 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:22.399 FSU Florida State, and then you know, I think he 222 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:27.039 got status right after that. Very simple, very straightforward. He 223 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:30.600 was one of the best ball strikers really, I believe 224 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.840 in that day he was very type tight with pain. 225 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.399 So he had a lot of time really playing with 226 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:42.120 the best of that time. So I'll think of things said, 227 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:44.399 I've really had a lot of support from these coaches. 228 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:48.200 I will say in high school, my coach Ben Barki 229 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:53.039 at Warsaw very much understood the emotion, very much understood 230 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:55.399 where I was trying to go, very much understood kind 231 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:58.879 of the whole situation. I'll say this, I think you 232 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:02.799 can see high level coaching come out in a in 233 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:05.759 an improper way, or at least being pushed. I never 234 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:08.919 felt that. I think I got I was very fortunate 235 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.559 to sign Football State and somebody there that was very supportive. 236 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.960 I ended up transferring to back to Grace College basically 237 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:19.320 Home had a lot of support there as well. But 238 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.799 to answer your question, it really was an internal thing 239 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:24.639 because you know, while it is the greatest pay and 240 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:26.360 it is the greatest joy, and I was just like, 241 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:28.960 let's let's keep let's keep pushing, right. 242 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:37.120 Uh, I guess, I guess. I mean if where where 243 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:40.200 was your head? At any point? Did you go I'm out, 244 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:42.279 I'm done. I can't do this anymore. 245 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.159 You know. I think the stats say that if you 246 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:48.840 could win three percent on tour year in the Hall 247 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:53.840 of Fame, and I think though that three percent, whether 248 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:58.799 it was a win or a contention, really was the payoff. 249 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:01.720 I think that that, frankly, that that might be it. 250 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:06.840 Currently now, I have tremendous appreciation for the architecture of 251 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:09.360 the game and just what it is, and also the 252 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.120 competitiveness of you know, even the mid am level. You 253 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.240 have you have some guys that you know, they work 254 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:17.279 nine to five, holy account, like if you really hadn't 255 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.759 do a handicapped plus sevens. I'm just fascinated with performance, 256 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:23.759 and I think where all of this has led, at 257 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.559 least professionally in my career. I'm just fascinated with performance. 258 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.639 I'm fascinated with individuals that have the ability to put 259 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:34.360 into work to get good enough to actually test themselves, 260 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:38.799 whether it's state or even national levels. Yeah, it's at 261 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:40.600 the end of the day, it's what have you built 262 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.320 and what can you try to show off today? And 263 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.600 I think full circle, that's that's that's what kept me, 264 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:47.600 kept me coming back. 265 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:51.559 So coming back to performance, at what point in your 266 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:57.919 performance did you recognize that you were struggling internally and 267 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:00.639 that it was impacting your game? Well? Where did you 268 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:01.120 see it? 269 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.559 I think that's where it's so difficult. It wasn't impacting 270 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:11.159 my performance. Still, I still was so I I was 271 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:15.200 so distraught. Let's just say that. I think at the 272 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.960 end of the day, it's just a game, right to us, 273 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:23.399 It's much more than that, right. But I wrote a 274 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.519 letter to doctor Otella just explaining what I was feeling. 275 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:29.799 No more than two days later, I got a call 276 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:34.559 from a Virginia random phone and it was him. We 277 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:37.399 chatted for about an hour and it was just like, okay, 278 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.799 well that that's special, right. But at the end of 279 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.240 the day he did say he's like, okay, you're a gamer. 280 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.279 Like he knows a lot of guys that suffer in 281 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:50.240 the hotel room. But when they're at least warming up 282 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.159 on the range or they at least have something to 283 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.639 control on that first t they do calm down. And 284 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.000 I have felt that, at least in my studies, I 285 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.720 found that of falling into flow, falling into the zone, 286 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.360 that is a place of ultimate control. So I will 287 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:09.360 say I think even beyond that three percent three percent victory, 288 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:13.000 of the three percent win, the three percent success, I 289 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.960 think having that control over something that built, at least 290 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.480 when it counts, is really rewarding. 291 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:27.320 Yeah. Yeah, and how how did it? How did it 292 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.919 present itself during year round or did did it not? 293 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:37.559 It was just pre and post round that you were struggling. Yeah, 294 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.639 but well, when you were playing golf, you are totally 295 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:41.120 in it. 296 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:46.279 Pre and post. Between the first team and the eighteenth green, 297 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:50.600 there there might be the classic we call it arousal. 298 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.559 At least stay away from anxiety, because that kind of 299 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.960 has a negative connotation. When you're up, when you're ready, 300 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.039 when you're you're in a state that is a little elevated, 301 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:05.480 calling it higher arousal. I was just ready, you know. 302 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.240 I think most great golfers in those moments understand what 303 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.440 understands what takes them to the very best, and they're 304 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:17.160 able to channel that. But at least for me, and 305 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.960 I think at least in Rotell's terms, He's like, yeah, 306 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.960 there's there's a lot of guys out there, and I think, 307 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:28.359 without naming too many names, some very large, like big 308 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.319 time guys. He was like, hey, I have examples. I'm 309 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.720 not entirely sure if I could share exactly the names, 310 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:41.359 but he basically in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen listed five 311 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:43.880 of maybe the top thirty in the world. He's like, 312 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.960 these individuals off the course. They're not sleeping, they're not 313 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.319 eating that, they're just not they're in the same category 314 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.960 as you. WHOA, Yeah, I. 315 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.880 Can't name names. Huh, I don't. I don't think you should. 316 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:03.519 I don't want to push on that. 317 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.680 Yeah yeah, yeah. It's one of those where I think 318 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:11.640 I just want to remain his trust. But also they're 319 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.519 just they're not relevant on tour anymore, so I don't Okay. 320 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:23.759 Okay, all right, so now you you've decided that, you know, 321 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:28.759 as we progress here, you're in college and you're really 322 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:33.359 struggling pre imposed round, but you're totally locked in when 323 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:34.039 you're playing. 324 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.400 Did you reach the flow state when you were playing? 325 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:46.359 Did you find times that in rounds or moments? And 326 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:49.720 to me, I guess with flow state, it's all reflective. 327 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.200 It's not like, hey, I'm in the flow state right now, 328 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.319 we write you can't it doesn't work. You look back 329 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:57.720 and went, oh, I was really locked in there. 330 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:03.079 Yeah. Yeah, there's without being braggadocious, there's there's one moment 331 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:05.279 that I okay, okay. 332 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:07.519 You're here, you're a soapbox, come. 333 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.799 On, okay. It was it was one of our bigger 334 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.240 tournaments in high school, basically the tournament to get into 335 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:17.519 your state tournament. It's call it regional and you know, 336 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:19.640 four or five holes left, I was told by my 337 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.759 coach it's like, hey, no more mistakes and we're going 338 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:23.319 to make it. You know, I've always been on a 339 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.000 really solid you know, I've always been on a really 340 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:29.319 solid team, and I've been lucky enough to get to 341 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:33.200 that state final, really know, through my through not through 342 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.799 my doing, but through a couple of really great players 343 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:39.200 that I got to play with. But about four holes left, 344 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.680 I was told that, you know, gave myself four really 345 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.000 good three really good looks, no birdies, even through those 346 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:50.759 three and my coach comes up. He's like, okay, John, 347 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.759 you know eighteen here is a straightaway five sixty. He's 348 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.039 not telling me this, but he's like, all he said 349 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:01.440 was eagle or we lose, and I'm like, cool. Often 350 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:02.440 that's a. 351 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.680 Tremendous amount of pressure during a round. I would think 352 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.440 it was your scorecard. When you're playing. It's like all 353 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.039 I need is two more pars and I have my 354 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:15.359 best round ever and you have two quadruple bogies. 355 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:20.119 Right in hindsight, I think it was great coaching because 356 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:24.200 I never really would have strategically gone for it. If 357 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.160 you understand, like you play a hole differently, if you 358 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.119 know that there is something that needs to happen. But 359 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.079 I only reference it because it is the deepest I've 360 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.319 ever gotten. I have had a few really good rounds, 361 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.240 but at least the people that I've interviewed have had 362 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.079 most of the clients that I have that are D one, 363 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.400 two of them have fifty eights, well, fifty eight and 364 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:50.759 fifty nine, and I just like, okay, give me three 365 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.839 hours on that. I want to hear everything about it. 366 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:57.079 But basically I got over the ball and everything just disappeared. 367 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:01.319 I got over it, and I do not remember. You know, 368 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:03.599 all I remember is essentially looking up and seeing the 369 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.920 tight little drawl that went out there. And then I 370 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.240 got over a ball at you know, two nine. I 371 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.319 knew it was a little juiced up, so I hit 372 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:15.279 six HRN don't remember it. And then all of a sudden, 373 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:16.640 I haven't. 374 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.359 Remember the ballflight. You don't remember it was striking it. 375 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:19.920 You just know that you had a six iron in 376 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:20.319 your hand. 377 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.720 I got over the ball. I remember taking it back. 378 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.480 I don't remember anything until seeing the ball flight, basically, 379 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.599 and then you know, you get over this twenty footer. 380 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:34.680 And you know, high school golf in Indiana, you have 381 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.599 high school Indiana basketball. You have seven thousand people showing 382 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.160 up for these small basketball games. There's really nobody watching us. 383 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:44.359 But for some reason, for some reason, there's like four 384 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.440 or five deep for one hundred and fifty yards. I 385 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:50.359 think everybody was just waiting. But yeah, I had a 386 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.559 twenty footer that really there's no way that I can 387 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.960 explain it outside of this precognition of just no matter 388 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.799 what stroke I put on, this probably going to go in. 389 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:03.799 And you know, I don't remember hitting the putt. I 390 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.240 just remember seeing the ball skater towards the hole and 391 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:10.160 just it went in. Right. That's just kind of how 392 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:14.839 flow happens sometimes. And you know, one of the nine. 393 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:17.920 So Michael set me high and say, it's kind of 394 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.359 a difficult last name to say. He's poined the term 395 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.799 flow basically in the seventies and eighties, and he does 396 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:27.640 talk about in one of the prime characteristics of what 397 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:32.039 flow is, it's it's more or less a transformation of time. 398 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.839 You lost the self consciousness and if you're really down there, 399 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:40.799 the pieces of the action that you know how to complete, 400 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.559 whether it's in the context of golf, sending a golf 401 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.480