Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kevin Triple from Willoughby, Ohio. I play at
Speaker 1: Briardaloe Golf Course.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Golf Smarter.
Speaker 1: This is the Douglas Gram from Dayton, Tennessee, and I
Speaker 1: play at Tennessee Hills Golf Course. This is Golf Smarter
Speaker 1: Number oneenty eighteen. A good way to wrap up what
Speaker 1: flow is and how to fall into it is relentless acceptance.
Speaker 1: I think the greatest sin as it relates to performance
Speaker 1: psychology in the game of golf, is allowing one swing
Speaker 1: to impact multiple, one situation to impact multiple, one bad
Speaker 1: balance to impact multiple. We play an imperfect game in
Speaker 1: imperfect air on imperfect surfaces. If we don't have an
Speaker 1: acceptance attitude, it's going to be a little harder than
Speaker 1: it should be. And I will say that maybe some
Speaker 1: of your listeners, it takes time. If you have the
Speaker 1: attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,
Speaker 1: there's still going to be headwinds, there's still going to
Speaker 1: be difficulties. But in time, it's more or less a
Speaker 1: rationalization that this is the better path. In golf contexts,
Speaker 1: mental toughness really is a rationalization. But this is the
Speaker 1: best path. I'm gonna choose not to respond to this
Speaker 1: in a highly emotional state because I know that a
Speaker 1: highly emotional state is going to impact the next maybe
Speaker 1: even impacts one after that.
Speaker 2: Watch how your Superpowers sore in a mindless state with
Speaker 2: performance coach John Shramp. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories,
Speaker 2: tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
Speaker 2: lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host,
Speaker 2: Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast.
Speaker 1: John, Right, how are we doing doing great?
Speaker 2: I'm interested in having this conversation. I'm always interested in
Speaker 2: having a conversation with somebody who has studied and is
Speaker 2: putting the flow state the mental game into use at
Speaker 2: new levels. And you reached out to me, and I
Speaker 2: really appreciate that, But you have a fascinating golf history
Speaker 2: which I want to go first, so we established that credibility.
Speaker 2: I recently had someone reach out to me that wanted
Speaker 2: to talk about the mental game, but they didn't want
Speaker 2: to talk about golf, and I said, sorry, I don't
Speaker 2: want to interview you if you don't want to talk
Speaker 2: about golf. You just want to talk about corporate heads
Speaker 2: being you know, smarter no, I don't care. So let's
Speaker 2: start with your golf journey, which brought you to where
Speaker 2: we are going to discuss more.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, Fret, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: I started golf. I was bit by the bug. I
Speaker 1: believe it four or five years old. Uncle uncle was
Speaker 1: heavily into golf that nobody in my family outside of
Speaker 1: my uncle was into golf. We would visit him once
Speaker 1: a week or once a year for about a week
Speaker 1: and that was just my golf week for two or
Speaker 1: three years. And you know, it's just one of those
Speaker 1: things where you know, you don't see a ton of
Speaker 1: them here and there. It's I think it's popping up
Speaker 1: back into the game, but just a little pitch and putt,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe eighteen fifty to sixty yard holes. And
Speaker 1: that's that's where I fell in love with the game.
Speaker 1: I could not get away from it in a way
Speaker 1: that I think. You know, it's six or seven. My
Speaker 1: parents were, Okay, well, if that's how you want to
Speaker 1: spend your time, go for it. Let's do it. You know,
Speaker 1: a similar store is many getting dropped off at six
Speaker 1: seven am, not getting picked up till six seven pm.
Speaker 1: At a small golf course called Raccoon Ron or So
Speaker 1: Indiana over in northeast Indiana, and very fortunate they're the
Speaker 1: guy that owned the place, actually played the tour. He
Speaker 1: played ten years in Asia, a couple of years in Europe,
Speaker 1: and then one maybe two years here on the tour
Speaker 1: in the US. Very tight with Payne Stewart. His name
Speaker 1: is Danny Hepler. It's actually I think actually a pallber
Speaker 1: in the funeral there. But he really cut his teeth
Speaker 1: in Asia with pain and so many stories. But has
Speaker 1: it related to me? Is it related to so many
Speaker 1: the juniors there? We were able to get, you know,
Speaker 1: all these lessons, all of these stories, all of these
Speaker 1: you know, he knew it, he already played it, he'd
Speaker 1: done it. So we had this great role model to
Speaker 1: look up to for you know, ten twelve years where
Speaker 1: I started competitive golf at seven and a you know,
Speaker 1: in accordance with many other juniors, just I want the tour.
Speaker 1: I want to play at that high level. I want
Speaker 1: to play at the highest level I can handle. Pursued
Speaker 1: it rather fervently. Was challenged by a high school coach
Speaker 1: to just say, hey, how bad do you want it?
Speaker 1: Let's push it, and all the way up until about
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. I mean took it six seven, eight
Speaker 1: hour days at the golf course. Really that was fun.
Speaker 1: It was just fun. It never was anything but fun.
Speaker 1: Late in my AGGA career, late in my junior career,
Speaker 1: things started turning. It really started to get to a
Speaker 1: point where I was pursuing the idea of Okay, if
Speaker 1: this is going to happen, this is going to happen,
Speaker 1: this is going to happen. Nerve, anxiety, fear, etc. Maybe
Speaker 1: even a little depression kind of hit. I was able
Speaker 1: to sign with a mid major at ball State. I
Speaker 1: stayed there for three months, transferred out. Nerve anxiety was
Speaker 1: too much to sleep, too much to bear, too much
Speaker 1: to eat, too much to do anything. Really turned into
Speaker 1: a dark period at least in my life. But it
Speaker 1: was one of those things that taught me a lesson
Speaker 1: of Okay, I'm putting all this effort into something I
Speaker 1: love so much. How can I hate it? And you
Speaker 1: know it is in that moment there I realized, Okay,
Speaker 1: psychology is something that I need to invest my time in.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it'd be a career at that point,
Speaker 1: but I was able to sit down with doctor Bob
Speaker 1: Winders for a few sessions, and I think.
Speaker 2: We've had him on the show multiple times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great, great resource. He's been an encouragement all the
Speaker 1: way throughout this experience for me. And in that moment,
Speaker 1: I realized, Okay, I think I know what I want
Speaker 1: to do now. I still love competing. I play at
Speaker 1: the highest level as I possibly can. Was fortunate enough
Speaker 1: to make the US Midydam last year and a good
Speaker 1: old eighty seventy seven was all I could muster. But
Speaker 1: I just enjoyed being there. My perspective is completely in
Speaker 1: a different light, but golf has always been kind of
Speaker 1: the greatest joy and the greatest pained in that sense.
Speaker 1: And I realized during my experiences at All State, during
Speaker 1: my experiences in college golf, that I think a lot
Speaker 1: of athletes go through that. In golf and many other sports,
Speaker 1: you put in thousands of hours of you know, your childhood,
Speaker 1: really in hopes of okay, am I good enough? Right?
Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty March twenty twenty, actually right when
Speaker 1: COVID hit I decided to start a PhD. I started
Speaker 1: studying flow state. That is kind of my expertise currently,
Speaker 1: but it's been a joy to help athletes in similar life,
Speaker 1: many of them in a different place than I was,
Speaker 1: is still enjoying it to a sense. But you know,
Speaker 1: this game has probably so much joy and so much
Speaker 1: passion that there's no way I can leave it.
Speaker 2: Incredible story. Thank you, and I appreciate your honesty and
Speaker 2: your openness to be able to discuss it. When you
Speaker 2: were playing at your best before I guess before you
Speaker 2: got to college and you were really obsessed with the
Speaker 2: whole thing, at what point did you get to start
Speaker 2: recognizing that you were crossing over into a dark side,
Speaker 2: if we can call it that. Yeah, and that fear
Speaker 2: and anxiety and it was starting to creep in. Was
Speaker 2: it your golf game that was prompting that?
Speaker 1: It was the scale at home? I was losing ten
Speaker 1: pounds every tournament that it played in, And I think
Speaker 1: at that point I knew that it was intense. I
Speaker 1: knew that it was something that I cared about. I
Speaker 1: think as I had conversation in groups with guys that
Speaker 1: I had mind, or at least guys that I still
Speaker 1: could beat up on the golf course, I'm like, are
Speaker 1: you guys feeling this? Are you guys not sleeping or
Speaker 1: you guys not eating, And now that I'm tight with
Speaker 1: several guys that are playing the tours, like, okay, there's
Speaker 1: a different mentality, there's an easier mentality. There's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a view on the sport of you on
Speaker 1: the game that is a little different than maybe I
Speaker 1: had in the moment.
Speaker 2: And were you losing weight because of the anxiety of performance,
Speaker 2: anxiety of playing competitively?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we all have seasons of life where
Speaker 1: we have big days, right, we all have whether it's
Speaker 1: related to the game, whether it's related to life. We
Speaker 1: all have moments where we're just like, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if I can keep this down. I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: I can keep a full meal with me. Right in
Speaker 1: those moments, I think when it got really dark, it
Speaker 1: really was just Okay, I know I'm not going to
Speaker 1: sleep tonight. I know I'm not going to eat tonight.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be lucky if a granola bar gets down.
Speaker 1: But it was still worth it. It was still worth
Speaker 1: to get out there and just try my best, and
Speaker 1: in that moment the results are still there. But I
Speaker 1: think at some point you just start breaking down, why
Speaker 1: was it worth it? Then? Escape? I love the competition,
Speaker 1: and I love what I built. And I think when
Speaker 1: you talk to the very best performers, at least in
Speaker 1: our game, I think they're tremendous. There are pieces of joy,
Speaker 1: pieces of gratitude that get from the game in the
Speaker 1: sense of, at least for me, maybe when I'm really tight,
Speaker 1: when I'm really working on it, fifty six yard pitch, like,
Speaker 1: I can hit it fifty six, if it's one eighteen,
Speaker 1: I can hit it one eighteen. I can hit that
Speaker 1: little draw, I hit that little cut. That was the
Speaker 1: piece for me where I'm like, Okay, I have really
Speaker 1: good control this golf ball. I really really enjoy that.
Speaker 1: But I think when the lights turn on, there's a
Speaker 1: very different experience there. And that's the at least on
Speaker 1: the psych side. Now for what I do, there's tremendous
Speaker 1: amounts of joy that I take from being able to
Speaker 1: get a performer, whether it's any of my golf guys
Speaker 1: or any of my poker guys, just in a you know,
Speaker 1: it might be one sentence that gives them kind of
Speaker 1: the right perspective to be there. You know, I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed the grind of it, but at the same time
Speaker 1: I get just as much joy watching individuals that I'm helping.
Speaker 2: Obviously with losing weight at every tournament, losing ten pounds
Speaker 2: coming up for every tournament, it was visually obvious. But
Speaker 2: what were your parents observing in you and how did
Speaker 2: they handle it watching you know, the anxiety just take
Speaker 2: control of you.
Speaker 1: They were still very supportive of John. You've invested so much,
Speaker 1: you know, to be very honest, and now I understand
Speaker 1: they were investing a lot as well just for me
Speaker 1: to be out there. I was. I was mowing twenty
Speaker 1: yards a week just to be able to afford to
Speaker 1: be out in the AJGA. So you know, we've already
Speaker 1: made the investment. Let's just go out and try, right.
Speaker 1: I think when it came to a head when I
Speaker 1: did transfer, there was a little bit more at home
Speaker 1: that was just okay, you're just you're really struggling, and
Speaker 1: they understood that I've been very fortunate I have two
Speaker 1: very supportive parents and understanding that you know, there is
Speaker 1: a third rail here that you can touch that might
Speaker 1: be a little much.
Speaker 2: We got a sense of how your parents were reacting
Speaker 2: to what you were going through. How about your coaches?
Speaker 2: Where were they was? Everyone? Was anybody pushing you and
Speaker 2: or were you pushing.
Speaker 1: I think it was more an internal thing. I really
Speaker 1: had a lot of support and I think throughout, as
Speaker 1: I mentioned Denny on the front end, there of just
Speaker 1: kind of a very direct, very solid, you know, he
Speaker 1: skated through his time at Ball State, he transferred to
Speaker 1: FSU Florida State, and then you know, I think he
Speaker 1: got status right after that. Very simple, very straightforward. He
Speaker 1: was one of the best ball strikers really, I believe
Speaker 1: in that day he was very type tight with pain.
Speaker 1: So he had a lot of time really playing with
Speaker 1: the best of that time. So I'll think of things said,
Speaker 1: I've really had a lot of support from these coaches.
Speaker 1: I will say in high school, my coach Ben Barki
Speaker 1: at Warsaw very much understood the emotion, very much understood
Speaker 1: where I was trying to go, very much understood kind
Speaker 1: of the whole situation. I'll say this, I think you
Speaker 1: can see high level coaching come out in a in
Speaker 1: an improper way, or at least being pushed. I never
Speaker 1: felt that. I think I got I was very fortunate
Speaker 1: to sign Football State and somebody there that was very supportive.
Speaker 1: I ended up transferring to back to Grace College basically
Speaker 1: Home had a lot of support there as well. But
Speaker 1: to answer your question, it really was an internal thing
Speaker 1: because you know, while it is the greatest pay and
Speaker 1: it is the greatest joy, and I was just like,
Speaker 1: let's let's keep let's keep pushing, right.
Speaker 2: Uh, I guess, I guess. I mean if where where
Speaker 2: was your head? At any point? Did you go I'm out,
Speaker 2: I'm done. I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 1: You know. I think the stats say that if you
Speaker 1: could win three percent on tour year in the Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame, and I think though that three percent, whether
Speaker 1: it was a win or a contention, really was the payoff.
Speaker 1: I think that that, frankly, that that might be it.
Speaker 1: Currently now, I have tremendous appreciation for the architecture of
Speaker 1: the game and just what it is, and also the
Speaker 1: competitiveness of you know, even the mid am level. You
Speaker 1: have you have some guys that you know, they work
Speaker 1: nine to five, holy account, like if you really hadn't
Speaker 1: do a handicapped plus sevens. I'm just fascinated with performance,
Speaker 1: and I think where all of this has led, at
Speaker 1: least professionally in my career. I'm just fascinated with performance.
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with individuals that have the ability to put
Speaker 1: into work to get good enough to actually test themselves,
Speaker 1: whether it's state or even national levels. Yeah, it's at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's what have you built
Speaker 1: and what can you try to show off today? And
Speaker 1: I think full circle, that's that's that's what kept me,
Speaker 1: kept me coming back.
Speaker 2: So coming back to performance, at what point in your
Speaker 2: performance did you recognize that you were struggling internally and
Speaker 2: that it was impacting your game? Well? Where did you
Speaker 2: see it?
Speaker 1: I think that's where it's so difficult. It wasn't impacting
Speaker 1: my performance. Still, I still was so I I was
Speaker 1: so distraught. Let's just say that. I think at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's just a game, right to us,
Speaker 1: It's much more than that, right. But I wrote a
Speaker 1: letter to doctor Otella just explaining what I was feeling.
Speaker 1: No more than two days later, I got a call
Speaker 1: from a Virginia random phone and it was him. We
Speaker 1: chatted for about an hour and it was just like, okay,
Speaker 1: well that that's special, right. But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day he did say he's like, okay, you're a gamer.
Speaker 1: Like he knows a lot of guys that suffer in
Speaker 1: the hotel room. But when they're at least warming up
Speaker 1: on the range or they at least have something to
Speaker 1: control on that first t they do calm down. And
Speaker 1: I have felt that, at least in my studies, I
Speaker 1: found that of falling into flow, falling into the zone,
Speaker 1: that is a place of ultimate control. So I will
Speaker 1: say I think even beyond that three percent three percent victory,
Speaker 1: of the three percent win, the three percent success, I
Speaker 1: think having that control over something that built, at least
Speaker 1: when it counts, is really rewarding.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and how how did it? How did it
Speaker 2: present itself during year round or did did it not?
Speaker 2: It was just pre and post round that you were struggling. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but well, when you were playing golf, you are totally
Speaker 2: in it.
Speaker 1: Pre and post. Between the first team and the eighteenth green,
Speaker 1: there there might be the classic we call it arousal.
Speaker 1: At least stay away from anxiety, because that kind of
Speaker 1: has a negative connotation. When you're up, when you're ready,
Speaker 1: when you're you're in a state that is a little elevated,
Speaker 1: calling it higher arousal. I was just ready, you know.
Speaker 1: I think most great golfers in those moments understand what
Speaker 1: understands what takes them to the very best, and they're
Speaker 1: able to channel that. But at least for me, and
Speaker 1: I think at least in Rotell's terms, He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of guys out there, and I think,
Speaker 1: without naming too many names, some very large, like big
Speaker 1: time guys. He was like, hey, I have examples. I'm
Speaker 1: not entirely sure if I could share exactly the names,
Speaker 1: but he basically in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen listed five
Speaker 1: of maybe the top thirty in the world. He's like,
Speaker 1: these individuals off the course. They're not sleeping, they're not
Speaker 1: eating that, they're just not they're in the same category
Speaker 1: as you. WHOA, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Can't name names. Huh, I don't. I don't think you should.
Speaker 2: I don't want to push on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. It's one of those where I think
Speaker 1: I just want to remain his trust. But also they're
Speaker 1: just they're not relevant on tour anymore, so I don't Okay.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so now you you've decided that, you know,
Speaker 3: as we progress here, you're in college and you're really
Speaker 3: struggling pre imposed round, but you're totally locked in when
Speaker 3: you're playing.
Speaker 2: Did you reach the flow state when you were playing?
Speaker 2: Did you find times that in rounds or moments? And
Speaker 2: to me, I guess with flow state, it's all reflective.
Speaker 2: It's not like, hey, I'm in the flow state right now,
Speaker 2: we write you can't it doesn't work. You look back
Speaker 2: and went, oh, I was really locked in there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's without being braggadocious, there's there's one moment
Speaker 1: that I okay, okay.
Speaker 2: You're here, you're a soapbox, come.
Speaker 1: On, okay. It was it was one of our bigger
Speaker 1: tournaments in high school, basically the tournament to get into
Speaker 1: your state tournament. It's call it regional and you know,
Speaker 1: four or five holes left, I was told by my
Speaker 1: coach it's like, hey, no more mistakes and we're going
Speaker 1: to make it. You know, I've always been on a
Speaker 1: really solid you know, I've always been on a really
Speaker 1: solid team, and I've been lucky enough to get to
Speaker 1: that state final, really know, through my through not through
Speaker 1: my doing, but through a couple of really great players
Speaker 1: that I got to play with. But about four holes left,
Speaker 1: I was told that, you know, gave myself four really
Speaker 1: good three really good looks, no birdies, even through those
Speaker 1: three and my coach comes up. He's like, okay, John,
Speaker 1: you know eighteen here is a straightaway five sixty. He's
Speaker 1: not telling me this, but he's like, all he said
Speaker 1: was eagle or we lose, and I'm like, cool. Often
Speaker 1: that's a.
Speaker 2: Tremendous amount of pressure during a round. I would think
Speaker 2: it was your scorecard. When you're playing. It's like all
Speaker 2: I need is two more pars and I have my
Speaker 2: best round ever and you have two quadruple bogies.
Speaker 1: Right in hindsight, I think it was great coaching because
Speaker 1: I never really would have strategically gone for it. If
Speaker 1: you understand, like you play a hole differently, if you
Speaker 1: know that there is something that needs to happen. But
Speaker 1: I only reference it because it is the deepest I've
Speaker 1: ever gotten. I have had a few really good rounds,
Speaker 1: but at least the people that I've interviewed have had
Speaker 1: most of the clients that I have that are D one,
Speaker 1: two of them have fifty eights, well, fifty eight and
Speaker 1: fifty nine, and I just like, okay, give me three
Speaker 1: hours on that. I want to hear everything about it.
Speaker 1: But basically I got over the ball and everything just disappeared.
Speaker 1: I got over it, and I do not remember. You know,
Speaker 1: all I remember is essentially looking up and seeing the
Speaker 1: tight little drawl that went out there. And then I
Speaker 1: got over a ball at you know, two nine. I
Speaker 1: knew it was a little juiced up, so I hit
Speaker 1: six HRN don't remember it. And then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I haven't.
Speaker 2: Remember the ballflight. You don't remember it was striking it.
Speaker 2: You just know that you had a six iron in
Speaker 2: your hand.
Speaker 1: I got over the ball. I remember taking it back.
Speaker 1: I don't remember anything until seeing the ball flight, basically,
Speaker 1: and then you know, you get over this twenty footer.
Speaker 1: And you know, high school golf in Indiana, you have
Speaker 1: high school Indiana basketball. You have seven thousand people showing
Speaker 1: up for these small basketball games. There's really nobody watching us.
Speaker 1: But for some reason, for some reason, there's like four
Speaker 1: or five deep for one hundred and fifty yards. I
Speaker 1: think everybody was just waiting. But yeah, I had a
Speaker 1: twenty footer that really there's no way that I can
Speaker 1: explain it outside of this precognition of just no matter
Speaker 1: what stroke I put on, this probably going to go in.
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't remember hitting the putt. I
Speaker 1: just remember seeing the ball skater towards the hole and
Speaker 1: just it went in. Right. That's just kind of how
Speaker 1: flow happens sometimes. And you know, one of the nine.
Speaker 1: So Michael set me high and say, it's kind of
Speaker 1: a difficult last name to say. He's poined the term
Speaker 1: flow basically in the seventies and eighties, and he does
Speaker 1: talk about in one of the prime characteristics of what
Speaker 1: flow is, it's it's more or less a transformation of time.
Speaker 1: You lost the self consciousness and if you're really down there,
Speaker 1: the pieces of the action that you know how to complete,
Speaker 1: whether it's in the context of golf, sending a golf
Speaker 1: all somewhere, context of basketball, Steph Curry, you know what
Speaker 1: he can do. Really, there's no need for much rationalization
Speaker 1: because you've already done it, you know how to do it,
Speaker 1: and it's just full trust in the moment in your
Speaker 1: ability to do it. So I reference that because frankly
Speaker 1: I don't remember it, and that that's really the only
Speaker 1: time I've blacked out. Most individuals that I do interview,
Speaker 1: at least for this study, have reported times where okay,
Speaker 1: there's kind of a misunderstanding of timing ball slows down,
Speaker 1: ball speeds up. If you're a batter at the plate,
Speaker 1: ball slows down. Tennis returning a serve that's one hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty miles an hour, ball slows down a little bit.
Speaker 1: There's something about the state that really can slow and
Speaker 1: quick in time depending on the what you're doing.
Speaker 2: So did you egle the hole?
Speaker 1: It get going? Yeah?
Speaker 2: All right, let's bring it back to us. Okay, I mean,
Speaker 2: I know this is a fascinating story and I really
Speaker 2: appreciate your honesty with this, But this podcast is how
Speaker 2: are we going to help the recreational golfer, competitive golfer,
Speaker 2: and some off constructors. But how do we help them
Speaker 2: understand that it's possible to get into a flow state,
Speaker 2: it's possible to release the anxiety and perform better. What
Speaker 2: is your approach? Where do you start with that?
Speaker 1: I initially start by interviewing. If it's a client, if
Speaker 1: it's a friend that's just trying to figure this out.
Speaker 1: I want to know the the nitty gritty, the detail,
Speaker 1: the thought, the emotion, the feeling of what you know
Speaker 1: your best performance has been. Ideally it's within the last
Speaker 1: few months. Just something that we can recall accurately. I
Speaker 1: want to know the ingredients of success for you. How
Speaker 1: do you feel, how do you think? How do you really?
Speaker 1: Are you high level motion? Low level motion where you're
Speaker 1: having fun? Are you scared? All of that? Within the
Speaker 1: viduals that might have other professional obligations, and we're still
Speaker 1: talking golf, I'll ask, hey, if you were an executive,
Speaker 1: one point, take me through a deal talk, Take me
Speaker 1: through negotiation, Take me through a time where you're in
Speaker 1: front of a lot of people. Take me through you know,
Speaker 1: complex decision making that you've been able to just right.
Speaker 1: Flow exists in all of our professional endeavor really, if
Speaker 1: you do it a lot, It exists in your life.
Speaker 1: If you have gone on any road trip that's north
Speaker 1: of one hundred and twenty miles, if I asked you
Speaker 1: what happened on mile eighty two, most likely you couldn't
Speaker 1: tell me really where that is or what's going on,
Speaker 1: or you know, the dog that was barking in the
Speaker 1: corner of the road, or the deer that may have
Speaker 1: hopped out at you. You might remember if the deer
Speaker 1: hopped out, But for the most part, you're in this
Speaker 1: flow that is just there. You have trust in your
Speaker 1: ability to operate the vehicle there. Golf is really no different,
Speaker 1: except it's quite a bit more precise, and I think
Speaker 1: that's where we get tripped up on. So really my
Speaker 1: first question, more or less is okay, tell me about
Speaker 1: this this this nine holes that you just kind of
Speaker 1: went down there? You know that it was different. What
Speaker 1: was the quality of that? Uh? You know, the next
Speaker 1: step beyond that, I'm going to ask, Okay, well, tell
Speaker 1: me about last week, tell me about last month, the
Speaker 1: last few times you've been out the average or even
Speaker 1: the bad And you know, in that conversation, in that interview,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of able to you know, dictate, Okay, this
Speaker 1: was there, you know, being in the bad performance of
Speaker 1: the average performance, this was hair in the great performance.
Speaker 1: What what are some of the difference? What are what
Speaker 1: are some of the qualities that might be in both buckets,
Speaker 1: but what's the difference between the two? And then really
Speaker 1: from you know, from there, you know, second and third
Speaker 1: base of what we do is more or less building
Speaker 1: a process to try to feed those buckets that really
Speaker 1: have figured it out.
Speaker 2: So is your goal to get a better understanding in
Speaker 2: your studies and your PhD dissertation? Are you trying to
Speaker 2: get a better understanding of how people get there, or
Speaker 2: are you trying to get to a place where you
Speaker 2: can assist us in getting there.
Speaker 1: I think the study, or at least the exercise that
Speaker 1: I'm going through currently, is to better describe what it is.
Speaker 1: So believe it was in twenty twelve and twenty fifteen
Speaker 1: there were two pretty large studies that came out that
Speaker 1: basically said, Okay, my zone or my flow, it's going
Speaker 1: to be very different than friend's flow, and very different
Speaker 1: than Steph Curry's flow, very different than Phil and Tiger, etc.
Speaker 1: It's a very unique tied to personality. Maybe not the
Speaker 1: personality that you might think of extroverted, introverted, friendly, not friendly,
Speaker 1: but personality is more or less a descriptor of just
Speaker 1: my difference to you, right. Yeah, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, it's describing it better throughout my code consulting.
Speaker 1: Moving forward with that, Yeah, my goal is to try
Speaker 1: to help as many types of golfer, very types of
Speaker 1: performer as I can. But the study itself is just describing.
Speaker 2: I see, I see. But I find it interesting that
Speaker 2: you want to bring your subject away from the golf
Speaker 2: course into different environments. Yeah, I completely understood, like the
Speaker 2: driving analogy is phenomenal. It really it's like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: I get that, and yeah, golf can be that way
Speaker 2: as well. I think that I have had rounds where
Speaker 2: when I look back on I'm like, oh, that's the
Speaker 2: flow state, Like I don't remember, you know, it was
Speaker 2: just happening. I wasn't thinking about it. It was just
Speaker 2: there and it just felt right, And I didn't try
Speaker 2: to analyze it at the time, because I guess if
Speaker 2: you try to, hey, I'm in the float. You know,
Speaker 2: if you try to do that, you're going to just
Speaker 2: fall right out of it. I better not screw up
Speaker 2: this next shot.
Speaker 1: But certainly I would even equate it, at least in
Speaker 1: your experience being just over a thousand podcasts at this point,
Speaker 1: listening back to your podcast, listening back to perhaps a guest,
Speaker 1: going down a line of thought to where you may
Speaker 1: have not expected it, going down a line of thought
Speaker 1: where you're like, Okay, where am I going to go now?
Speaker 1: Or what is the question I'm going to ask now,
Speaker 1: and just hearing yourself respond with the answer, like maybe
Speaker 1: even the textbook question that is up up next, you
Speaker 1: might not remember making that decision. I call that flow
Speaker 1: as well. I think that that is that is your zone,
Speaker 1: because you know you have repetition in it.
Speaker 2: Right, I'm completely honest. Sometimes that I you know, I
Speaker 2: listened to the interview. I edit the interview. Not a
Speaker 2: lot of editing is just tightening things up and whatnot
Speaker 2: to make it publishable. But Okayaly, I'll listen back to
Speaker 2: an episode right just to check how things and I
Speaker 2: hear things in it that I never heard when we
Speaker 2: were having the conversation. Initially, because I'm looking as we're
Speaker 2: having this conversation, I'm looking for doors opening up for
Speaker 2: the next question. I'm looking for opportunities to create the
Speaker 2: next question. And sometimes obviously and sometimes I miss what
Speaker 2: the person's point is, like, oh well, why did I
Speaker 2: How did I possibly miss that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I didn't want to make this about my
Speaker 2: doing interviews. I do want to make it more about
Speaker 2: how the average golfer can use to get into the
Speaker 2: focus and stay without questioning, you know, without rehashing that
Speaker 2: last shot that you didn't like, you know, and staying
Speaker 2: focused on the next shot, without thinking about the mechanics
Speaker 2: of it, because that really is going to that is
Speaker 2: the bomb that's going to explode. If you start thinking
Speaker 2: about your mechanics, you're going to be in big trouble, right.
Speaker 1: I think the illustration that I use that is probably
Speaker 1: been most relatable is if I'm in the room with somebody,
Speaker 1: I'll have a little red rubber ball, and I'll toss
Speaker 1: that rubber ball at them. I'll have them toss it back.
Speaker 1: We might toss it back and forth without me even
Speaker 1: giving any proper whatsoever, and you know, after a few tosses,
Speaker 1: I'll get the rubber ball back and I'll essentially ask
Speaker 1: what about your ability or what about that movement? Were
Speaker 1: you questioning? What about that moment did you have trust in?
Speaker 1: Why did you think that that release point, with that tempo,
Speaker 1: with that feed is going to be perfect? How did
Speaker 1: you assume that? How did you trust that? Now? That
Speaker 1: is a much more simple, much more much less complex
Speaker 1: movement than any golf movement, even a two foot putt, right,
Speaker 1: It's it's always going to be tricky for us in
Speaker 1: some context. My best illustration for that is more or less,
Speaker 1: if you're so focused on the target and you understand
Speaker 1: that you have a relative ability to send a ball
Speaker 1: in that direction, why are we exerting so much more
Speaker 1: of a mental effort. Why are we exerting more mental
Speaker 1: energy to this move when I've done it a few
Speaker 1: thousand times, You've done it a few thousand times. Every
Speaker 1: single person that is trying to get help with their
Speaker 1: golf swing or their golf game, they've done it enough
Speaker 1: to ask the question. So I have a belief that
Speaker 1: you know, we've we've invested a lot of time, We've
Speaker 1: invested a lot of energy into building whether it's this
Speaker 1: you know, more or less a brain pathway or at
Speaker 1: least a pattern that we're able to send something or
Speaker 1: able to swing in a relatively precise manner, to send
Speaker 1: something to a very distinct in small target. You know,
Speaker 1: that level of precision usually is not going to be
Speaker 1: friendly to over analysis. And this is another special thing
Speaker 1: about flow. I believe it was late two thousands, early
Speaker 1: twenty tens that they started talking about the physiological nature
Speaker 1: of what flow actually is. What happens the prefrontal shuts down,
Speaker 1: we still have the same energy budget. We still have
Speaker 1: this budget that our brain is operating with. Right even
Speaker 1: though the prefrontal, which is complex decision making, shuts down,
Speaker 1: we have this excess energy that essentially is able to
Speaker 1: go through that back two thirds and you know, without
Speaker 1: getting into the nitty gritty, because frankly, I don't have
Speaker 1: the physiological knowledge to actually quote all the but that
Speaker 1: extra power really turns on a bit of a superman
Speaker 1: in us. Because at the end of the day, if
Speaker 1: you ever have any time on SAM or track Man
Speaker 1: or any of the shot, the more or less the
Speaker 1: launch monitors, any of that data, you'll know that this
Speaker 1: is a very precise game. And if you are accustomed
Speaker 1: to this, to your draw it means that most likely
Speaker 1: that face is just a little open, maybe half degree
Speaker 1: to and a half degrees, it means that your path
Speaker 1: is either relatively flat or maybe coming in zero point
Speaker 1: five end out. That's a very precise pattern that we're
Speaker 1: able to hit time in and time out. So as
Speaker 1: I interview individuals with flow, when I if I interview
Speaker 1: the topic of your best round, ever, there isn't a
Speaker 1: lot of thought. But how can that be? There's really
Speaker 1: there's still a presence of a very precise movement.
Speaker 2: You said, turn on superman. I want to know what
Speaker 2: you mean by that and how we can do it.
Speaker 1: Most studies indicate that focus has to be external. I
Speaker 1: think that's rather obvious, at least when we describe that
Speaker 1: in the golf context. If I'm thinking about my shoulder,
Speaker 1: but think about rotation by thinking about moving onto that
Speaker 1: left foot, that right foot, if you're left handed, it's
Speaker 1: probably not a great thing. I at least in the
Speaker 1: interviews that I've done, there can be one feel or
Speaker 1: one swing thought that Okay, we can squeak through that.
Speaker 1: That's great. You know, I'm coaching to try to take
Speaker 1: these people to very lee levels or trying to take
Speaker 1: them into the version of themselves. I still think that
Speaker 1: the swing thought is a bit of a bandit. I
Speaker 1: think that if we're able to operate just as we
Speaker 1: are in the very best moments of our golf game,
Speaker 1: there tends to be mindlessness now with its unique It
Speaker 1: could be one swing thought, it could be one feel.
Speaker 1: But for the most part, I really want individuals to
Speaker 1: take a look at Okay, if I'm on the range
Speaker 1: getting ready for a round, I'm getting warmed up. But
Speaker 1: also the intention of your warm up towards the end
Speaker 1: really should be there's a target out there at one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty yards, I'm just going to get over
Speaker 1: the ball with my express interest, my only thought being
Speaker 1: the target. Because we really are only able to think
Speaker 1: about one thing at one time, and the intention, or
Speaker 1: at least the presence of that last thought right before
Speaker 1: you pull the trigger usually is kind of the dictator
Speaker 1: of what's happening. The subconscious really can't understand negatives or nose.
Speaker 1: So if I'm sitting over and you know a cape
Speaker 1: style part three, you know, you see a lot of
Speaker 1: those with Pete Tye where there's just this water line
Speaker 1: that's going kind of meandering to the right or meandering
Speaker 1: to the left for some reason. If we do hit
Speaker 1: in the water, relatively good players will hit it in
Speaker 1: the water right on that edge right. If they're struggle
Speaker 1: with the thought of do not go here, the subconscious
Speaker 1: can really only understand the essence of here, what is
Speaker 1: do not go out in the water? Oh? Water right?
Speaker 1: I think it also come out in interviews that I've
Speaker 1: had with really really talented individuals that are able to
Speaker 1: play professionally. For the most part, their intention, the clarity
Speaker 1: of their thought, is the dictator for pretty much everything
Speaker 1: outside of humidity, heat, wind change, getting the wrong number.
Speaker 1: In that sense, they don't tend to miss they're really
Speaker 1: they're professionals. Right. The only real, large, large mistake that
Speaker 1: you'll see is maybe a wrestling with thought at the end,
Speaker 1: right before we're pulling the trigger. Keep going, we keep going.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're on something here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. At the end of the day, I think with
Speaker 1: your viewers, your listeners, if they really want to fall
Speaker 1: into the flow, or at least experience one of their
Speaker 1: better performances, I would say, first, take note on what
Speaker 1: has already happened. What's the essence of me at my best?
Speaker 1: Right number two, when we're warming up, I would take
Speaker 1: a look at what can we do in a mindless
Speaker 1: sense if I'm getting over the ball. What's the result
Speaker 1: when my intention, my focus is just that target, whether
Speaker 1: it's a two yard cut, five yard cut, you a
Speaker 1: nasty shot to the right, nasty shut to the left,
Speaker 1: let yourself just give your subconscious the wheel of okay,
Speaker 1: take control of this. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: I do believe that when we no matter what level
Speaker 1: we play at, if we're confident in our ability to
Speaker 1: send it to hopefully a good destination, we're able to
Speaker 1: play relatively unfettered golf, whatever level it is. So I
Speaker 1: always like to visualize heavily behind the ball. I like
Speaker 1: to see the shot tracker, just as we see on
Speaker 1: CBS or or on golf channel. I want to see that,
Speaker 1: and if I'm on the greens, I want to see
Speaker 1: that ball roll on that track right before I end it.
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas always said that his warm ups were basically
Speaker 1: to understand who did I bring today? Did I bring
Speaker 1: the two yard cut? Did bring the three yard cut?
Speaker 1: Did I bring the one yard drawl? Basically you'd say, okay,
Speaker 1: I brought the two yard cut today, I'm going to
Speaker 1: go dance with the two yard cut, and he would
Speaker 1: stay committed to that shot. But I can almost guarantee
Speaker 1: you the essence of Nicholas's thought was, where am I
Speaker 1: going with this? I'm a professional. I can send it
Speaker 1: to the direction or the distance that is required. The
Speaker 1: focus must be there. So for your viewers that have
Speaker 1: played basketball or any target warriented game, if I'm at
Speaker 1: a dartboard, I'm focusing on that triple twenty, I'm probably
Speaker 1: If you're really good at darts, you're probably focusing on
Speaker 1: a portion of that triple twenty. If you're really really
Speaker 1: good at basketball, you're probably focusing on that half inch
Speaker 1: front piece of the rim. You're not focused on anything internal?
Speaker 1: Why on earth will be focus internal and golf? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah. We recently had Josh Xander on a couple months
Speaker 2: ago and do you know, Josh, do you know he
Speaker 2: is oh okay? And I've found this quote that I
Speaker 2: presented to him and says, instead of focusing on twenty
Speaker 2: two percent of your game that isn't going right, take
Speaker 2: the glass half full approach and appreciate seventy eight percent
Speaker 2: of the game that's working for you that day. Yes,
Speaker 2: have the awareness to play towards your.
Speaker 1: Strengths, right, that's right?
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I think that you may have
Speaker 2: come up with the title of this episode about what
Speaker 2: can we achieve in a mindless state?
Speaker 1: You know, how far can we go that the key
Speaker 1: in that mindless state is walking into the ball completely
Speaker 1: agnostic to what's happened before, what's happened, what hopefully is
Speaker 1: happening in front. Right. I think at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, we play a game that is rather drawn out.
Speaker 1: If you play competitively, you're going to have to more
Speaker 1: or less be on the ball for forty eight or
Speaker 1: fifty four hours. Yes, you might be in the hotel room,
Speaker 1: you might be the restaurant, etc. But when you're on
Speaker 1: the golf course, you have to be locked in. It's
Speaker 1: going to be four and a half hours of that.
Speaker 1: Do that a few times in a row. A lot
Speaker 1: of scarring, a lot of emotion, a lot of intensity
Speaker 1: can build up. But I think at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, flow is relatively agnostic to emotion. When we're
Speaker 1: operating at our very best, it's a bit of an
Speaker 1: emotionless process until that final put drops the car. Analogy
Speaker 1: even really talking to clients about their professional endeavors, when
Speaker 1: they're succeeding, when they're doing well, when they're getting things done,
Speaker 1: it's just business usual. It's really not something that is
Speaker 1: an abnormal rollercoaster of events. That's not how you run
Speaker 1: a business. That's not how you lead people. You have
Speaker 1: to lead people through consistency, relentless consistency. I think at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, with golf, it is the
Speaker 1: ultimate challenge on staying more or less agnostic emotionally. As
Speaker 1: it's so precise. We will have you know, misses and yeah,
Speaker 1: please don't quote me, but it was a legend, legend
Speaker 1: of the game. I think it was Hogan or Hagan
Speaker 1: that said, basically, he budgeted four bad swings into a round.
Speaker 1: Every single round. He budgeted the fact that I am
Speaker 1: completely an acceptance of four essentially gimmes. It's not that
Speaker 1: he's re hitting or anything, but he essentially said, hey,
Speaker 1: if I make a bad swing or just chop it up,
Speaker 1: cops are doing business right. And you know, any of
Speaker 1: those guys that made a name for themselves back in
Speaker 1: the day relentlessly incredible ball strikers, they just don't really nice. Uh.
Speaker 1: And you know, for that kind of player to say,
Speaker 1: you know what, at four times, I'm going to give
Speaker 1: myself grace. Every single round, I'm gonna give myself grace
Speaker 1: four times. So I think it's it's kind of looking
Speaker 1: in the mirror at whatever stage you're at. If you're
Speaker 1: a competitive, you know, tour pro, if you're a recognercial player,
Speaker 1: if you're a mid am, if you're a college player,
Speaker 1: probably more than four times you're going to let yourself down, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you definitely need to budget a little bit more
Speaker 2: than four. Yeah, and for for you know, the people
Speaker 2: that I play with and at my level, it's like
Speaker 2: budget budget for one per hole and then leave your
Speaker 2: and be nice to yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the uh maybe a good way to
Speaker 1: wrap up what flow is and how to fall into
Speaker 1: it is relentless acceptance, because I think the greatest sin
Speaker 1: is it relates to performance psychology in the game of
Speaker 1: golf is allowing one swing to impact multiple, one situation
Speaker 1: to impact multiple, one bad balance to impact multiple. We
Speaker 1: play an imperfect game in imperfect air on imperfect surfaces.
Speaker 1: So if we don't have an acceptance attitude, it's going
Speaker 1: to be a little harder than it should be. And
Speaker 1: I will say that maybe some of your listeners, it
Speaker 1: takes time. Over time. You know, if you have the
Speaker 1: attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration,
Speaker 1: There's still going to be headwinds there, it's still going
Speaker 1: to be difficulties, But in time, it's more or less
Speaker 1: a rationalization that you know, this is the better path.
Speaker 1: I always like to say that in certain context, released
Speaker 1: in golf context, that mental toughness really is a rationalization
Speaker 1: that this is the best path. I'm not going I'm
Speaker 1: gonna choose not to respond to this in a highly
Speaker 1: emotional state, because I know that a highly emotional state
Speaker 1: is going to impact next, maybe even impacts one after that.
Speaker 1: So I think at the end of the day, flow
Speaker 1: is all about relentless consistency and relentless acceptance.
Speaker 2: Wow, I got to write that one down an acceptance,
Speaker 2: and I love the line flow is agnostic to emotion.
Speaker 2: That's really powerful stuff. Maybe that's the title of episode.
Speaker 2: I don't know. So are you publishing your findings and
Speaker 2: your work online? How do we learn more about what
Speaker 2: you're doing?
Speaker 1: John, late May, early June. I'll have it available twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five, Yes, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: It's a podcast.
Speaker 1: We have to say that, so I haven't gotten used
Speaker 1: to that. Yeah. In short order, I'm going to have
Speaker 1: some interviews that will be rather interesting. I do believe
Speaker 1: that a lot of the commentary there is going to
Speaker 1: be a little bit more academic, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: try to kind of more or less summarize it in
Speaker 1: a readable fashion and have that available on my website
Speaker 1: probably probably late June, early July. At that point, I
Speaker 1: can't say that I'm writing anything currently. I'm mainly working
Speaker 1: with clients, is it currently? But yeah, I hope to
Speaker 1: get some more information about the findings because I do
Speaker 1: believe that in its individual nature it is. Really it's
Speaker 1: still at this point academia is still kind of stretched
Speaker 1: their head. It's okay, we know that this is here,
Speaker 1: but we can't really describe what it is and why
Speaker 1: is it or how do I experience it or how
Speaker 1: does somebody else experience it. So hoping to bring a
Speaker 1: little bit more clarity to that. But as it relates
Speaker 1: to golf, I just hope to help individual shoot some
Speaker 1: lower scores here soon.
Speaker 2: Well, I really appreciate the journey that we took with
Speaker 2: you in how we started out for your golf journey
Speaker 2: and then brought it to your studies and your thesis
Speaker 2: really fascinating and thank you and best of luck man,
Speaker 2: and let's stay in touch.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me Fred