1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kevin Triple from Willoughby, Ohio. I play at 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:08,320 Briardaloe Golf Course. 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 2: Welcome to Golf Smarter. 4 00:00:10,759 --> 00:00:14,039 Speaker 1: This is the Douglas Gram from Dayton, Tennessee, and I 5 00:00:14,119 --> 00:00:18,039 play at Tennessee Hills Golf Course. This is Golf Smarter 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,719 Number oneenty eighteen. A good way to wrap up what 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,519 flow is and how to fall into it is relentless acceptance. 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,679 I think the greatest sin as it relates to performance 9 00:00:28,719 --> 00:00:32,079 psychology in the game of golf, is allowing one swing 10 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,799 to impact multiple, one situation to impact multiple, one bad 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,280 balance to impact multiple. We play an imperfect game in 12 00:00:39,359 --> 00:00:42,679 imperfect air on imperfect surfaces. If we don't have an 13 00:00:42,679 --> 00:00:45,600 acceptance attitude, it's going to be a little harder than 14 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,640 it should be. And I will say that maybe some 15 00:00:47,679 --> 00:00:50,280 of your listeners, it takes time. If you have the 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,320 attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration, 17 00:00:53,439 --> 00:00:55,000 there's still going to be headwinds, there's still going to 18 00:00:55,039 --> 00:00:57,200 be difficulties. But in time, it's more or less a 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,320 rationalization that this is the better path. In golf contexts, 20 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,079 mental toughness really is a rationalization. But this is the 21 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,760 best path. I'm gonna choose not to respond to this 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,439 in a highly emotional state because I know that a 23 00:01:09,519 --> 00:01:12,079 highly emotional state is going to impact the next maybe 24 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,359 even impacts one after that. 25 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:23,519 Speaker 2: Watch how your Superpowers sore in a mindless state with 26 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:29,680 performance coach John Shramp. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, 27 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,959 tips and insights from great golf minds to help you 28 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,280 lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, 29 00:01:37,599 --> 00:01:40,599 Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter Podcast. 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: John, Right, how are we doing doing great? 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,439 Speaker 2: I'm interested in having this conversation. I'm always interested in 32 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:51,760 having a conversation with somebody who has studied and is 33 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:56,519 putting the flow state the mental game into use at 34 00:01:56,599 --> 00:02:00,079 new levels. And you reached out to me, and I 35 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:04,920 really appreciate that, But you have a fascinating golf history 36 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:08,479 which I want to go first, so we established that credibility. 37 00:02:09,599 --> 00:02:11,599 I recently had someone reach out to me that wanted 38 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,599 to talk about the mental game, but they didn't want 39 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,120 to talk about golf, and I said, sorry, I don't 40 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:19,960 want to interview you if you don't want to talk 41 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,240 about golf. You just want to talk about corporate heads 42 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,439 being you know, smarter no, I don't care. So let's 43 00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:30,840 start with your golf journey, which brought you to where 44 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:33,080 we are going to discuss more. 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,439 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, Fret, thank you so much for having me. 46 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,719 I started golf. I was bit by the bug. I 47 00:02:41,719 --> 00:02:45,840 believe it four or five years old. Uncle uncle was 48 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,000 heavily into golf that nobody in my family outside of 49 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,759 my uncle was into golf. We would visit him once 50 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,280 a week or once a year for about a week 51 00:02:54,479 --> 00:02:56,560 and that was just my golf week for two or 52 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,439 three years. And you know, it's just one of those 53 00:02:59,439 --> 00:03:01,680 things where you know, you don't see a ton of 54 00:03:01,719 --> 00:03:04,120 them here and there. It's I think it's popping up 55 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,439 back into the game, but just a little pitch and putt, 56 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,680 you know, maybe eighteen fifty to sixty yard holes. And 57 00:03:10,759 --> 00:03:12,520 that's that's where I fell in love with the game. 58 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:15,599 I could not get away from it in a way 59 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,520 that I think. You know, it's six or seven. My 60 00:03:18,599 --> 00:03:21,960 parents were, Okay, well, if that's how you want to 61 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,639 spend your time, go for it. Let's do it. You know, 62 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,479 a similar store is many getting dropped off at six 63 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,639 seven am, not getting picked up till six seven pm. 64 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,039 At a small golf course called Raccoon Ron or So 65 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,599 Indiana over in northeast Indiana, and very fortunate they're the 66 00:03:39,639 --> 00:03:42,639 guy that owned the place, actually played the tour. He 67 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,319 played ten years in Asia, a couple of years in Europe, 68 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,439 and then one maybe two years here on the tour 69 00:03:48,759 --> 00:03:53,280 in the US. Very tight with Payne Stewart. His name 70 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:57,039 is Danny Hepler. It's actually I think actually a pallber 71 00:03:57,159 --> 00:03:59,639 in the funeral there. But he really cut his teeth 72 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,680 in Asia with pain and so many stories. But has 73 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:05,360 it related to me? Is it related to so many 74 00:04:05,439 --> 00:04:08,840 the juniors there? We were able to get, you know, 75 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,319 all these lessons, all of these stories, all of these 76 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:14,159 you know, he knew it, he already played it, he'd 77 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:16,959 done it. So we had this great role model to 78 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,800 look up to for you know, ten twelve years where 79 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:23,600 I started competitive golf at seven and a you know, 80 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,879 in accordance with many other juniors, just I want the tour. 81 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,480 I want to play at that high level. I want 82 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,160 to play at the highest level I can handle. Pursued 83 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,720 it rather fervently. Was challenged by a high school coach 84 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,519 to just say, hey, how bad do you want it? 85 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,560 Let's push it, and all the way up until about 86 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,720 eighteen years old. I mean took it six seven, eight 87 00:04:42,759 --> 00:04:45,680 hour days at the golf course. Really that was fun. 88 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,360 It was just fun. It never was anything but fun. 89 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,600 Late in my AGGA career, late in my junior career, 90 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:56,000 things started turning. It really started to get to a 91 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,040 point where I was pursuing the idea of Okay, if 92 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,000 this is going to happen, this is going to happen, 93 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,879 this is going to happen. Nerve, anxiety, fear, etc. Maybe 94 00:05:07,879 --> 00:05:11,519 even a little depression kind of hit. I was able 95 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,680 to sign with a mid major at ball State. I 96 00:05:14,759 --> 00:05:19,240 stayed there for three months, transferred out. Nerve anxiety was 97 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,399 too much to sleep, too much to bear, too much 98 00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:24,519 to eat, too much to do anything. Really turned into 99 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,240 a dark period at least in my life. But it 100 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,399 was one of those things that taught me a lesson 101 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:32,639 of Okay, I'm putting all this effort into something I 102 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,600 love so much. How can I hate it? And you 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,480 know it is in that moment there I realized, Okay, 104 00:05:37,639 --> 00:05:39,959 psychology is something that I need to invest my time in. 105 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:42,680 I didn't realize it'd be a career at that point, 106 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,800 but I was able to sit down with doctor Bob 107 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,000 Winders for a few sessions, and I think. 108 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:50,639 Speaker 2: We've had him on the show multiple times. 109 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, great, great resource. He's been an encouragement all the 110 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,680 way throughout this experience for me. And in that moment, 111 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,279 I realized, Okay, I think I know what I want 112 00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:01,360 to do now. I still love competing. I play at 113 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,480 the highest level as I possibly can. Was fortunate enough 114 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:08,319 to make the US Midydam last year and a good 115 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:10,879 old eighty seventy seven was all I could muster. But 116 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:14,240 I just enjoyed being there. My perspective is completely in 117 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,079 a different light, but golf has always been kind of 118 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,839 the greatest joy and the greatest pained in that sense. 119 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:24,680 And I realized during my experiences at All State, during 120 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,399 my experiences in college golf, that I think a lot 121 00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:31,079 of athletes go through that. In golf and many other sports, 122 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,639 you put in thousands of hours of you know, your childhood, 123 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,439 really in hopes of okay, am I good enough? Right? 124 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,879 So in twenty twenty March twenty twenty, actually right when 125 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,160 COVID hit I decided to start a PhD. I started 126 00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:49,519 studying flow state. That is kind of my expertise currently, 127 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,160 but it's been a joy to help athletes in similar life, 128 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,040 many of them in a different place than I was, 129 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,639 is still enjoying it to a sense. But you know, 130 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,680 this game has probably so much joy and so much 131 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,480 passion that there's no way I can leave it. 132 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: Incredible story. Thank you, and I appreciate your honesty and 133 00:07:10,399 --> 00:07:13,959 your openness to be able to discuss it. When you 134 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,000 were playing at your best before I guess before you 135 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,040 got to college and you were really obsessed with the 136 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,199 whole thing, at what point did you get to start 137 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,720 recognizing that you were crossing over into a dark side, 138 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:34,399 if we can call it that. Yeah, and that fear 139 00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:38,160 and anxiety and it was starting to creep in. Was 140 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,160 it your golf game that was prompting that? 141 00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: It was the scale at home? I was losing ten 142 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:49,519 pounds every tournament that it played in, And I think 143 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,199 at that point I knew that it was intense. I 144 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,879 knew that it was something that I cared about. I 145 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,480 think as I had conversation in groups with guys that 146 00:07:59,519 --> 00:08:01,680 I had mind, or at least guys that I still 147 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,800 could beat up on the golf course, I'm like, are 148 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,120 you guys feeling this? Are you guys not sleeping or 149 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,560 you guys not eating, And now that I'm tight with 150 00:08:10,759 --> 00:08:13,959 several guys that are playing the tours, like, okay, there's 151 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,360 a different mentality, there's an easier mentality. There's a little 152 00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:20,920 bit of a view on the sport of you on 153 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:22,720 the game that is a little different than maybe I 154 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:23,519 had in the moment. 155 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:32,039 Speaker 2: And were you losing weight because of the anxiety of performance, 156 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,279 anxiety of playing competitively? 157 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we all have seasons of life where 158 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:41,120 we have big days, right, we all have whether it's 159 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:44,279 related to the game, whether it's related to life. We 160 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,679 all have moments where we're just like, I'm not sure 161 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,519 if I can keep this down. I'm not sure if 162 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,559 I can keep a full meal with me. Right in 163 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,799 those moments, I think when it got really dark, it 164 00:08:54,919 --> 00:08:57,440 really was just Okay, I know I'm not going to 165 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,559 sleep tonight. I know I'm not going to eat tonight. 166 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,039 I'm going to be lucky if a granola bar gets down. 167 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:05,440 But it was still worth it. It was still worth 168 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,600 to get out there and just try my best, and 169 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,320 in that moment the results are still there. But I 170 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,519 think at some point you just start breaking down, why 171 00:09:15,639 --> 00:09:22,279 was it worth it? Then? Escape? I love the competition, 172 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,399 and I love what I built. And I think when 173 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,360 you talk to the very best performers, at least in 174 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,399 our game, I think they're tremendous. There are pieces of joy, 175 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,480 pieces of gratitude that get from the game in the 176 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,600 sense of, at least for me, maybe when I'm really tight, 177 00:09:38,639 --> 00:09:42,519 when I'm really working on it, fifty six yard pitch, like, 178 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,759 I can hit it fifty six, if it's one eighteen, 179 00:09:44,799 --> 00:09:46,159 I can hit it one eighteen. I can hit that 180 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,639 little draw, I hit that little cut. That was the 181 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,600 piece for me where I'm like, Okay, I have really 182 00:09:51,639 --> 00:09:54,440 good control this golf ball. I really really enjoy that. 183 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,399 But I think when the lights turn on, there's a 184 00:09:57,519 --> 00:10:01,840 very different experience there. And that's the at least on 185 00:10:01,919 --> 00:10:06,159 the psych side. Now for what I do, there's tremendous 186 00:10:06,159 --> 00:10:08,600 amounts of joy that I take from being able to 187 00:10:08,639 --> 00:10:11,639 get a performer, whether it's any of my golf guys 188 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,840 or any of my poker guys, just in a you know, 189 00:10:14,879 --> 00:10:17,440 it might be one sentence that gives them kind of 190 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,279 the right perspective to be there. You know, I really 191 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,399 enjoyed the grind of it, but at the same time 192 00:10:24,759 --> 00:10:27,799 I get just as much joy watching individuals that I'm helping. 193 00:10:29,919 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: Obviously with losing weight at every tournament, losing ten pounds 194 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:43,080 coming up for every tournament, it was visually obvious. But 195 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:49,320 what were your parents observing in you and how did 196 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:54,240 they handle it watching you know, the anxiety just take 197 00:10:54,279 --> 00:10:54,960 control of you. 198 00:10:57,039 --> 00:11:01,799 Speaker 1: They were still very supportive of John. You've invested so much, 199 00:11:02,159 --> 00:11:05,480 you know, to be very honest, and now I understand 200 00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:08,759 they were investing a lot as well just for me 201 00:11:08,799 --> 00:11:11,519 to be out there. I was. I was mowing twenty 202 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,440 yards a week just to be able to afford to 203 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,159 be out in the AJGA. So you know, we've already 204 00:11:17,159 --> 00:11:19,759 made the investment. Let's just go out and try, right. 205 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:22,879 I think when it came to a head when I 206 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:25,440 did transfer, there was a little bit more at home 207 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,440 that was just okay, you're just you're really struggling, and 208 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,639 they understood that I've been very fortunate I have two 209 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:35,200 very supportive parents and understanding that you know, there is 210 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,039 a third rail here that you can touch that might 211 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,080 be a little much. 212 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,799 Speaker 2: We got a sense of how your parents were reacting 213 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,000 to what you were going through. How about your coaches? 214 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,600 Where were they was? Everyone? Was anybody pushing you and 215 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,120 or were you pushing. 216 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: I think it was more an internal thing. I really 217 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,039 had a lot of support and I think throughout, as 218 00:12:08,039 --> 00:12:12,039 I mentioned Denny on the front end, there of just 219 00:12:12,159 --> 00:12:15,679 kind of a very direct, very solid, you know, he 220 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,159 skated through his time at Ball State, he transferred to 221 00:12:19,279 --> 00:12:22,399 FSU Florida State, and then you know, I think he 222 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,039 got status right after that. Very simple, very straightforward. He 223 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,600 was one of the best ball strikers really, I believe 224 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:33,840 in that day he was very type tight with pain. 225 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,399 So he had a lot of time really playing with 226 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:42,120 the best of that time. So I'll think of things said, 227 00:12:42,159 --> 00:12:44,399 I've really had a lot of support from these coaches. 228 00:12:44,519 --> 00:12:48,200 I will say in high school, my coach Ben Barki 229 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,039 at Warsaw very much understood the emotion, very much understood 230 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,399 where I was trying to go, very much understood kind 231 00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:58,879 of the whole situation. I'll say this, I think you 232 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,799 can see high level coaching come out in a in 233 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,759 an improper way, or at least being pushed. I never 234 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:08,919 felt that. I think I got I was very fortunate 235 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,559 to sign Football State and somebody there that was very supportive. 236 00:13:12,759 --> 00:13:15,960 I ended up transferring to back to Grace College basically 237 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,320 Home had a lot of support there as well. But 238 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,799 to answer your question, it really was an internal thing 239 00:13:21,879 --> 00:13:24,639 because you know, while it is the greatest pay and 240 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:26,360 it is the greatest joy, and I was just like, 241 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,960 let's let's keep let's keep pushing, right. 242 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: Uh, I guess, I guess. I mean if where where 243 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,200 was your head? At any point? Did you go I'm out, 244 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,279 I'm done. I can't do this anymore. 245 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,159 Speaker 1: You know. I think the stats say that if you 246 00:13:46,159 --> 00:13:48,840 could win three percent on tour year in the Hall 247 00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:53,840 of Fame, and I think though that three percent, whether 248 00:13:53,879 --> 00:13:58,799 it was a win or a contention, really was the payoff. 249 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,720 I think that that, frankly, that that might be it. 250 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,840 Currently now, I have tremendous appreciation for the architecture of 251 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,360 the game and just what it is, and also the 252 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,120 competitiveness of you know, even the mid am level. You 253 00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:14,240 have you have some guys that you know, they work 254 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,279 nine to five, holy account, like if you really hadn't 255 00:14:17,279 --> 00:14:20,759 do a handicapped plus sevens. I'm just fascinated with performance, 256 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:23,759 and I think where all of this has led, at 257 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,559 least professionally in my career. I'm just fascinated with performance. 258 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,639 I'm fascinated with individuals that have the ability to put 259 00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:34,360 into work to get good enough to actually test themselves, 260 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,799 whether it's state or even national levels. Yeah, it's at 261 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,600 the end of the day, it's what have you built 262 00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:43,320 and what can you try to show off today? And 263 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:46,600 I think full circle, that's that's that's what kept me, 264 00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:47,600 kept me coming back. 265 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:51,559 Speaker 2: So coming back to performance, at what point in your 266 00:14:51,639 --> 00:14:57,919 performance did you recognize that you were struggling internally and 267 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,639 that it was impacting your game? Well? Where did you 268 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:01,120 see it? 269 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,559 Speaker 1: I think that's where it's so difficult. It wasn't impacting 270 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:11,159 my performance. Still, I still was so I I was 271 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,200 so distraught. Let's just say that. I think at the 272 00:15:15,559 --> 00:15:18,960 end of the day, it's just a game, right to us, 273 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,399 It's much more than that, right. But I wrote a 274 00:15:23,519 --> 00:15:26,519 letter to doctor Otella just explaining what I was feeling. 275 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:29,799 No more than two days later, I got a call 276 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,559 from a Virginia random phone and it was him. We 277 00:15:34,679 --> 00:15:37,399 chatted for about an hour and it was just like, okay, 278 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,799 well that that's special, right. But at the end of 279 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,240 the day he did say he's like, okay, you're a gamer. 280 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,279 Like he knows a lot of guys that suffer in 281 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,240 the hotel room. But when they're at least warming up 282 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,159 on the range or they at least have something to 283 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,639 control on that first t they do calm down. And 284 00:15:56,879 --> 00:15:59,000 I have felt that, at least in my studies, I 285 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,720 found that of falling into flow, falling into the zone, 286 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:06,360 that is a place of ultimate control. So I will 287 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,360 say I think even beyond that three percent three percent victory, 288 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,000 of the three percent win, the three percent success, I 289 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,960 think having that control over something that built, at least 290 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,480 when it counts, is really rewarding. 291 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and how how did it? How did it 292 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:30,919 present itself during year round or did did it not? 293 00:16:31,159 --> 00:16:37,559 It was just pre and post round that you were struggling. Yeah, 294 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:40,639 but well, when you were playing golf, you are totally 295 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:41,120 in it. 296 00:16:42,679 --> 00:16:46,279 Speaker 1: Pre and post. Between the first team and the eighteenth green, 297 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,600 there there might be the classic we call it arousal. 298 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,559 At least stay away from anxiety, because that kind of 299 00:16:54,559 --> 00:16:57,960 has a negative connotation. When you're up, when you're ready, 300 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,039 when you're you're in a state that is a little elevated, 301 00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:05,480 calling it higher arousal. I was just ready, you know. 302 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,240 I think most great golfers in those moments understand what 303 00:17:11,039 --> 00:17:13,440 understands what takes them to the very best, and they're 304 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,160 able to channel that. But at least for me, and 305 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,960 I think at least in Rotell's terms, He's like, yeah, 306 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,960 there's there's a lot of guys out there, and I think, 307 00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:28,359 without naming too many names, some very large, like big 308 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,319 time guys. He was like, hey, I have examples. I'm 309 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,720 not entirely sure if I could share exactly the names, 310 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,359 but he basically in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen listed five 311 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:43,880 of maybe the top thirty in the world. He's like, 312 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,960 these individuals off the course. They're not sleeping, they're not 313 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:51,319 eating that, they're just not they're in the same category 314 00:17:51,319 --> 00:17:55,960 as you. WHOA, Yeah, I. 315 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: Can't name names. Huh, I don't. I don't think you should. 316 00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:03,519 I don't want to push on that. 317 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. It's one of those where I think 318 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,640 I just want to remain his trust. But also they're 319 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,519 just they're not relevant on tour anymore, so I don't Okay. 320 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:23,759 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so now you you've decided that, you know, 321 00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:28,759 as we progress here, you're in college and you're really 322 00:18:28,759 --> 00:18:33,359 struggling pre imposed round, but you're totally locked in when 323 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,039 you're playing. 324 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 2: Did you reach the flow state when you were playing? 325 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:46,359 Did you find times that in rounds or moments? And 326 00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:49,720 to me, I guess with flow state, it's all reflective. 327 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:52,200 It's not like, hey, I'm in the flow state right now, 328 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,319 we write you can't it doesn't work. You look back 329 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,720 and went, oh, I was really locked in there. 330 00:18:58,039 --> 00:19:03,079 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, there's without being braggadocious, there's there's one moment 331 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,279 that I okay, okay. 332 00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:07,519 Speaker 2: You're here, you're a soapbox, come. 333 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,799 Speaker 1: On, okay. It was it was one of our bigger 334 00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:13,240 tournaments in high school, basically the tournament to get into 335 00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:17,519 your state tournament. It's call it regional and you know, 336 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,640 four or five holes left, I was told by my 337 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,759 coach it's like, hey, no more mistakes and we're going 338 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:23,319 to make it. You know, I've always been on a 339 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,000 really solid you know, I've always been on a really 340 00:19:26,039 --> 00:19:29,319 solid team, and I've been lucky enough to get to 341 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,200 that state final, really know, through my through not through 342 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,799 my doing, but through a couple of really great players 343 00:19:35,799 --> 00:19:39,200 that I got to play with. But about four holes left, 344 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,680 I was told that, you know, gave myself four really 345 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,000 good three really good looks, no birdies, even through those 346 00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:50,759 three and my coach comes up. He's like, okay, John, 347 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:54,759 you know eighteen here is a straightaway five sixty. He's 348 00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:57,039 not telling me this, but he's like, all he said 349 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,440 was eagle or we lose, and I'm like, cool. Often 350 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:02,440 that's a. 351 00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: Tremendous amount of pressure during a round. I would think 352 00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:10,440 it was your scorecard. When you're playing. It's like all 353 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,039 I need is two more pars and I have my 354 00:20:12,079 --> 00:20:15,359 best round ever and you have two quadruple bogies. 355 00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: Right in hindsight, I think it was great coaching because 356 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,200 I never really would have strategically gone for it. If 357 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,160 you understand, like you play a hole differently, if you 358 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,119 know that there is something that needs to happen. But 359 00:20:32,519 --> 00:20:35,079 I only reference it because it is the deepest I've 360 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,319 ever gotten. I have had a few really good rounds, 361 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,240 but at least the people that I've interviewed have had 362 00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:44,079 most of the clients that I have that are D one, 363 00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:47,400 two of them have fifty eights, well, fifty eight and 364 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:50,759 fifty nine, and I just like, okay, give me three 365 00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:52,839 hours on that. I want to hear everything about it. 366 00:20:53,799 --> 00:20:57,079 But basically I got over the ball and everything just disappeared. 367 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,319 I got over it, and I do not remember. You know, 368 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,599 all I remember is essentially looking up and seeing the 369 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:06,920 tight little drawl that went out there. And then I 370 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,240 got over a ball at you know, two nine. I 371 00:21:09,279 --> 00:21:11,319 knew it was a little juiced up, so I hit 372 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,279 six HRN don't remember it. And then all of a sudden, 373 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:16,640 I haven't. 374 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: Remember the ballflight. You don't remember it was striking it. 375 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:19,920 You just know that you had a six iron in 376 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:20,319 your hand. 377 00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: I got over the ball. I remember taking it back. 378 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,480 I don't remember anything until seeing the ball flight, basically, 379 00:21:28,759 --> 00:21:31,599 and then you know, you get over this twenty footer. 380 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,680 And you know, high school golf in Indiana, you have 381 00:21:34,839 --> 00:21:37,599 high school Indiana basketball. You have seven thousand people showing 382 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,160 up for these small basketball games. There's really nobody watching us. 383 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:44,359 But for some reason, for some reason, there's like four 384 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,440 or five deep for one hundred and fifty yards. I 385 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,359 think everybody was just waiting. But yeah, I had a 386 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,559 twenty footer that really there's no way that I can 387 00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:57,960 explain it outside of this precognition of just no matter 388 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,799 what stroke I put on, this probably going to go in. 389 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,799 And you know, I don't remember hitting the putt. I 390 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:06,240 just remember seeing the ball skater towards the hole and 391 00:22:06,759 --> 00:22:10,160 just it went in. Right. That's just kind of how 392 00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:14,839 flow happens sometimes. And you know, one of the nine. 393 00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:17,920 So Michael set me high and say, it's kind of 394 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,359 a difficult last name to say. He's poined the term 395 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,799 flow basically in the seventies and eighties, and he does 396 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,640 talk about in one of the prime characteristics of what 397 00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:32,039 flow is, it's it's more or less a transformation of time. 398 00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:35,839 You lost the self consciousness and if you're really down there, 399 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,799 the pieces of the action that you know how to complete, 400 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:43,559 whether it's in the context of golf, sending a golf 401 00:22:43,599 --> 00:22:47,480 all somewhere, context of basketball, Steph Curry, you know what 402 00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:52,200 he can do. Really, there's no need for much rationalization 403 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,039 because you've already done it, you know how to do it, 404 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,240 and it's just full trust in the moment in your 405 00:22:58,279 --> 00:23:02,000 ability to do it. So I reference that because frankly 406 00:23:02,039 --> 00:23:04,200 I don't remember it, and that that's really the only 407 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,319 time I've blacked out. Most individuals that I do interview, 408 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,839 at least for this study, have reported times where okay, 409 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,759 there's kind of a misunderstanding of timing ball slows down, 410 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,039 ball speeds up. If you're a batter at the plate, 411 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,720 ball slows down. Tennis returning a serve that's one hundred 412 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,920 and twenty miles an hour, ball slows down a little bit. 413 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,079 There's something about the state that really can slow and 414 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:33,480 quick in time depending on the what you're doing. 415 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:35,599 Speaker 2: So did you egle the hole? 416 00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:42,759 Speaker 1: It get going? Yeah? 417 00:23:43,079 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 2: All right, let's bring it back to us. Okay, I mean, 418 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,119 I know this is a fascinating story and I really 419 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:54,039 appreciate your honesty with this, But this podcast is how 420 00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:59,079 are we going to help the recreational golfer, competitive golfer, 421 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,880 and some off constructors. But how do we help them 422 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:09,480 understand that it's possible to get into a flow state, 423 00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:16,440 it's possible to release the anxiety and perform better. What 424 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,480 is your approach? Where do you start with that? 425 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: I initially start by interviewing. If it's a client, if 426 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,039 it's a friend that's just trying to figure this out. 427 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:31,119 I want to know the the nitty gritty, the detail, 428 00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:36,319 the thought, the emotion, the feeling of what you know 429 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,559 your best performance has been. Ideally it's within the last 430 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:44,720 few months. Just something that we can recall accurately. I 431 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:48,720 want to know the ingredients of success for you. How 432 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,319 do you feel, how do you think? How do you really? 433 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,119 Are you high level motion? Low level motion where you're 434 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,880 having fun? Are you scared? All of that? Within the 435 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,079 viduals that might have other professional obligations, and we're still 436 00:25:04,079 --> 00:25:07,839 talking golf, I'll ask, hey, if you were an executive, 437 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,680 one point, take me through a deal talk, Take me 438 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,519 through negotiation, Take me through a time where you're in 439 00:25:13,559 --> 00:25:16,400 front of a lot of people. Take me through you know, 440 00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:19,680 complex decision making that you've been able to just right. 441 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,079 Flow exists in all of our professional endeavor really, if 442 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,000 you do it a lot, It exists in your life. 443 00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:30,599 If you have gone on any road trip that's north 444 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,799 of one hundred and twenty miles, if I asked you 445 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:36,599 what happened on mile eighty two, most likely you couldn't 446 00:25:36,599 --> 00:25:38,960 tell me really where that is or what's going on, 447 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,119 or you know, the dog that was barking in the 448 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,039 corner of the road, or the deer that may have 449 00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:46,519 hopped out at you. You might remember if the deer 450 00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:48,599 hopped out, But for the most part, you're in this 451 00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:50,960 flow that is just there. You have trust in your 452 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,960 ability to operate the vehicle there. Golf is really no different, 453 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,000 except it's quite a bit more precise, and I think 454 00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:02,799 that's where we get tripped up on. So really my 455 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,400 first question, more or less is okay, tell me about 456 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,720 this this this nine holes that you just kind of 457 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,400 went down there? You know that it was different. What 458 00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:13,680 was the quality of that? Uh? You know, the next 459 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,960 step beyond that, I'm going to ask, Okay, well, tell 460 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,960 me about last week, tell me about last month, the 461 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,759 last few times you've been out the average or even 462 00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:25,799 the bad And you know, in that conversation, in that interview, 463 00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:29,960 I'm kind of able to you know, dictate, Okay, this 464 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,599 was there, you know, being in the bad performance of 465 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,519 the average performance, this was hair in the great performance. 466 00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:39,119 What what are some of the difference? What are what 467 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,279 are some of the qualities that might be in both buckets, 468 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:44,680 but what's the difference between the two? And then really 469 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,319 from you know, from there, you know, second and third 470 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:49,559 base of what we do is more or less building 471 00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:52,200 a process to try to feed those buckets that really 472 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:53,240 have figured it out. 473 00:26:55,039 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 2: So is your goal to get a better understanding in 474 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,519 your studies and your PhD dissertation? Are you trying to 475 00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:07,079 get a better understanding of how people get there, or 476 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,400 are you trying to get to a place where you 477 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:12,720 can assist us in getting there. 478 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: I think the study, or at least the exercise that 479 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,119 I'm going through currently, is to better describe what it is. 480 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,599 So believe it was in twenty twelve and twenty fifteen 481 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,799 there were two pretty large studies that came out that 482 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,079 basically said, Okay, my zone or my flow, it's going 483 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,319 to be very different than friend's flow, and very different 484 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,359 than Steph Curry's flow, very different than Phil and Tiger, etc. 485 00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:43,759 It's a very unique tied to personality. Maybe not the 486 00:27:43,759 --> 00:27:47,240 personality that you might think of extroverted, introverted, friendly, not friendly, 487 00:27:47,319 --> 00:27:51,400 but personality is more or less a descriptor of just 488 00:27:51,559 --> 00:27:55,160 my difference to you, right. Yeah, at the end of 489 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,839 the day, it's describing it better throughout my code consulting. 490 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,680 Moving forward with that, Yeah, my goal is to try 491 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,720 to help as many types of golfer, very types of 492 00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:11,119 performer as I can. But the study itself is just describing. 493 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 2: I see, I see. But I find it interesting that 494 00:28:15,039 --> 00:28:18,119 you want to bring your subject away from the golf 495 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:24,680 course into different environments. Yeah, I completely understood, like the 496 00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:27,960 driving analogy is phenomenal. It really it's like, oh, okay, 497 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,119 I get that, and yeah, golf can be that way 498 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,640 as well. I think that I have had rounds where 499 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,519 when I look back on I'm like, oh, that's the 500 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,559 flow state, Like I don't remember, you know, it was 501 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,839 just happening. I wasn't thinking about it. It was just 502 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,680 there and it just felt right, And I didn't try 503 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,839 to analyze it at the time, because I guess if 504 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,119 you try to, hey, I'm in the float. You know, 505 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,720 if you try to do that, you're going to just 506 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,359 fall right out of it. I better not screw up 507 00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:02,160 this next shot. 508 00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: But certainly I would even equate it, at least in 509 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,720 your experience being just over a thousand podcasts at this point, 510 00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:16,200 listening back to your podcast, listening back to perhaps a guest, 511 00:29:16,839 --> 00:29:19,279 going down a line of thought to where you may 512 00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:21,799 have not expected it, going down a line of thought 513 00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:24,319 where you're like, Okay, where am I going to go now? 514 00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:26,400 Or what is the question I'm going to ask now, 515 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,839 and just hearing yourself respond with the answer, like maybe 516 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,920 even the textbook question that is up up next, you 517 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,079 might not remember making that decision. I call that flow 518 00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:41,240 as well. I think that that is that is your zone, 519 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:43,480 because you know you have repetition in it. 520 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: Right, I'm completely honest. Sometimes that I you know, I 521 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:52,640 listened to the interview. I edit the interview. Not a 522 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,279 lot of editing is just tightening things up and whatnot 523 00:29:55,319 --> 00:30:01,799 to make it publishable. But Okayaly, I'll listen back to 524 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,200 an episode right just to check how things and I 525 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,039 hear things in it that I never heard when we 526 00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:13,240 were having the conversation. Initially, because I'm looking as we're 527 00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:20,079 having this conversation, I'm looking for doors opening up for 528 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,599 the next question. I'm looking for opportunities to create the 529 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,599 next question. And sometimes obviously and sometimes I miss what 530 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,720 the person's point is, like, oh well, why did I 531 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,559 How did I possibly miss that? 532 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: Yeah? 533 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I didn't want to make this about my 534 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:53,000 doing interviews. I do want to make it more about 535 00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:59,200 how the average golfer can use to get into the 536 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:05,160 focus and stay without questioning, you know, without rehashing that 537 00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:09,519 last shot that you didn't like, you know, and staying 538 00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:14,480 focused on the next shot, without thinking about the mechanics 539 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,759 of it, because that really is going to that is 540 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,720 the bomb that's going to explode. If you start thinking 541 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,359 about your mechanics, you're going to be in big trouble, right. 542 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:26,759 Speaker 1: I think the illustration that I use that is probably 543 00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:31,079 been most relatable is if I'm in the room with somebody, 544 00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:34,799 I'll have a little red rubber ball, and I'll toss 545 00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:37,680 that rubber ball at them. I'll have them toss it back. 546 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,799 We might toss it back and forth without me even 547 00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:44,000 giving any proper whatsoever, and you know, after a few tosses, 548 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,480 I'll get the rubber ball back and I'll essentially ask 549 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,000 what about your ability or what about that movement? Were 550 00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:55,440 you questioning? What about that moment did you have trust in? 551 00:31:56,119 --> 00:31:59,160 Why did you think that that release point, with that tempo, 552 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,880 with that feed is going to be perfect? How did 553 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,759 you assume that? How did you trust that? Now? That 554 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,599 is a much more simple, much more much less complex 555 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,559 movement than any golf movement, even a two foot putt, right, 556 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,240 It's it's always going to be tricky for us in 557 00:32:18,599 --> 00:32:23,720 some context. My best illustration for that is more or less, 558 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,880 if you're so focused on the target and you understand 559 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,599 that you have a relative ability to send a ball 560 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:34,559 in that direction, why are we exerting so much more 561 00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:37,519 of a mental effort. Why are we exerting more mental 562 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,640 energy to this move when I've done it a few 563 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,039 thousand times, You've done it a few thousand times. Every 564 00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:46,359 single person that is trying to get help with their 565 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:49,240 golf swing or their golf game, they've done it enough 566 00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:52,640 to ask the question. So I have a belief that 567 00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:56,119 you know, we've we've invested a lot of time, We've 568 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,799 invested a lot of energy into building whether it's this 569 00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:02,279 you know, more or less a brain pathway or at 570 00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:05,799 least a pattern that we're able to send something or 571 00:33:05,839 --> 00:33:10,000 able to swing in a relatively precise manner, to send 572 00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:14,279 something to a very distinct in small target. You know, 573 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,039 that level of precision usually is not going to be 574 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,920 friendly to over analysis. And this is another special thing 575 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,400 about flow. I believe it was late two thousands, early 576 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,039 twenty tens that they started talking about the physiological nature 577 00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:35,599 of what flow actually is. What happens the prefrontal shuts down, 578 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,519 we still have the same energy budget. We still have 579 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:42,720 this budget that our brain is operating with. Right even 580 00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:46,400 though the prefrontal, which is complex decision making, shuts down, 581 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,319 we have this excess energy that essentially is able to 582 00:33:49,359 --> 00:33:53,759 go through that back two thirds and you know, without 583 00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:56,720 getting into the nitty gritty, because frankly, I don't have 584 00:33:57,039 --> 00:34:02,480 the physiological knowledge to actually quote all the but that 585 00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:05,039 extra power really turns on a bit of a superman 586 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,119 in us. Because at the end of the day, if 587 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,719 you ever have any time on SAM or track Man 588 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,719 or any of the shot, the more or less the 589 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,480 launch monitors, any of that data, you'll know that this 590 00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:21,519 is a very precise game. And if you are accustomed 591 00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:24,400 to this, to your draw it means that most likely 592 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,519 that face is just a little open, maybe half degree 593 00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:30,199 to and a half degrees, it means that your path 594 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,440 is either relatively flat or maybe coming in zero point 595 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,800 five end out. That's a very precise pattern that we're 596 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,920 able to hit time in and time out. So as 597 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,800 I interview individuals with flow, when I if I interview 598 00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:50,599 the topic of your best round, ever, there isn't a 599 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,679 lot of thought. But how can that be? There's really 600 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,559 there's still a presence of a very precise movement. 601 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,119 Speaker 2: You said, turn on superman. I want to know what 602 00:35:06,159 --> 00:35:07,880 you mean by that and how we can do it. 603 00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:12,559 Speaker 1: Most studies indicate that focus has to be external. I 604 00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:16,119 think that's rather obvious, at least when we describe that 605 00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:18,920 in the golf context. If I'm thinking about my shoulder, 606 00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:22,440 but think about rotation by thinking about moving onto that 607 00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:25,639 left foot, that right foot, if you're left handed, it's 608 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:28,960 probably not a great thing. I at least in the 609 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,719 interviews that I've done, there can be one feel or 610 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,480 one swing thought that Okay, we can squeak through that. 611 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,440 That's great. You know, I'm coaching to try to take 612 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,920 these people to very lee levels or trying to take 613 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,400 them into the version of themselves. I still think that 614 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,400 the swing thought is a bit of a bandit. I 615 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,000 think that if we're able to operate just as we 616 00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:57,400 are in the very best moments of our golf game, 617 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,039 there tends to be mindlessness now with its unique It 618 00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:06,280 could be one swing thought, it could be one feel. 619 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,159 But for the most part, I really want individuals to 620 00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:12,480 take a look at Okay, if I'm on the range 621 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,599 getting ready for a round, I'm getting warmed up. But 622 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,599 also the intention of your warm up towards the end 623 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,199 really should be there's a target out there at one 624 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,760 hundred and fifty yards, I'm just going to get over 625 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,880 the ball with my express interest, my only thought being 626 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,679 the target. Because we really are only able to think 627 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,159 about one thing at one time, and the intention, or 628 00:36:34,159 --> 00:36:37,679 at least the presence of that last thought right before 629 00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:41,199 you pull the trigger usually is kind of the dictator 630 00:36:41,199 --> 00:36:46,239 of what's happening. The subconscious really can't understand negatives or nose. 631 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,360 So if I'm sitting over and you know a cape 632 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,199 style part three, you know, you see a lot of 633 00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:56,039 those with Pete Tye where there's just this water line 634 00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:58,639 that's going kind of meandering to the right or meandering 635 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,159 to the left for some reason. If we do hit 636 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,800 in the water, relatively good players will hit it in 637 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,880 the water right on that edge right. If they're struggle 638 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,880 with the thought of do not go here, the subconscious 639 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,840 can really only understand the essence of here, what is 640 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,559 do not go out in the water? Oh? Water right? 641 00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:20,679 I think it also come out in interviews that I've 642 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:23,719 had with really really talented individuals that are able to 643 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,000 play professionally. For the most part, their intention, the clarity 644 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,880 of their thought, is the dictator for pretty much everything 645 00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:36,079 outside of humidity, heat, wind change, getting the wrong number. 646 00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:39,599 In that sense, they don't tend to miss they're really 647 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:44,519 they're professionals. Right. The only real, large, large mistake that 648 00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:47,519 you'll see is maybe a wrestling with thought at the end, 649 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:53,199 right before we're pulling the trigger. Keep going, we keep going. 650 00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 2: Okay, we're on something here. 651 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,559 Speaker 1: Yeah. At the end of the day, I think with 652 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:03,239 your viewers, your listeners, if they really want to fall 653 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,320 into the flow, or at least experience one of their 654 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,719 better performances, I would say, first, take note on what 655 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,079 has already happened. What's the essence of me at my best? 656 00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:18,039 Right number two, when we're warming up, I would take 657 00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:20,880 a look at what can we do in a mindless 658 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,119 sense if I'm getting over the ball. What's the result 659 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,880 when my intention, my focus is just that target, whether 660 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,440 it's a two yard cut, five yard cut, you a 661 00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:32,360 nasty shot to the right, nasty shut to the left, 662 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,440 let yourself just give your subconscious the wheel of okay, 663 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,199 take control of this. At the end of the day, 664 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,519 I do believe that when we no matter what level 665 00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:47,159 we play at, if we're confident in our ability to 666 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:51,000 send it to hopefully a good destination, we're able to 667 00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:56,079 play relatively unfettered golf, whatever level it is. So I 668 00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:59,199 always like to visualize heavily behind the ball. I like 669 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,679 to see the shot tracker, just as we see on 670 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,280 CBS or or on golf channel. I want to see that, 671 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,239 and if I'm on the greens, I want to see 672 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:10,840 that ball roll on that track right before I end it. 673 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,599 Jack Nicholas always said that his warm ups were basically 674 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:18,079 to understand who did I bring today? Did I bring 675 00:39:18,159 --> 00:39:19,880 the two yard cut? Did bring the three yard cut? 676 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,079 Did I bring the one yard drawl? Basically you'd say, okay, 677 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,199 I brought the two yard cut today, I'm going to 678 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,599 go dance with the two yard cut, and he would 679 00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:30,559 stay committed to that shot. But I can almost guarantee 680 00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:33,320 you the essence of Nicholas's thought was, where am I 681 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,760 going with this? I'm a professional. I can send it 682 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,360 to the direction or the distance that is required. The 683 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,920 focus must be there. So for your viewers that have 684 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,519 played basketball or any target warriented game, if I'm at 685 00:39:46,519 --> 00:39:49,639 a dartboard, I'm focusing on that triple twenty, I'm probably 686 00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:51,920 If you're really good at darts, you're probably focusing on 687 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,159 a portion of that triple twenty. If you're really really 688 00:39:55,199 --> 00:39:58,679 good at basketball, you're probably focusing on that half inch 689 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,880 front piece of the rim. You're not focused on anything internal? 690 00:40:03,039 --> 00:40:07,519 Why on earth will be focus internal and golf? Yeah? 691 00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:15,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. We recently had Josh Xander on a couple months 692 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,199 ago and do you know, Josh, do you know he 693 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,440 is oh okay? And I've found this quote that I 694 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,440 presented to him and says, instead of focusing on twenty 695 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,920 two percent of your game that isn't going right, take 696 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,519 the glass half full approach and appreciate seventy eight percent 697 00:40:31,519 --> 00:40:34,199 of the game that's working for you that day. Yes, 698 00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:37,639 have the awareness to play towards your. 699 00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: Strengths, right, that's right? 700 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I think that you may have 701 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,280 come up with the title of this episode about what 702 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,360 can we achieve in a mindless state? 703 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,639 Speaker 1: You know, how far can we go that the key 704 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:02,039 in that mindless state is walking into the ball completely 705 00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:05,480 agnostic to what's happened before, what's happened, what hopefully is 706 00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:10,199 happening in front. Right. I think at the end of 707 00:41:10,199 --> 00:41:13,199 the day, we play a game that is rather drawn out. 708 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,440 If you play competitively, you're going to have to more 709 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:18,440 or less be on the ball for forty eight or 710 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,840 fifty four hours. Yes, you might be in the hotel room, 711 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,800 you might be the restaurant, etc. But when you're on 712 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,960 the golf course, you have to be locked in. It's 713 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,400 going to be four and a half hours of that. 714 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,440 Do that a few times in a row. A lot 715 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,320 of scarring, a lot of emotion, a lot of intensity 716 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,599 can build up. But I think at the end of 717 00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:41,199 the day, flow is relatively agnostic to emotion. When we're 718 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,639 operating at our very best, it's a bit of an 719 00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:51,159 emotionless process until that final put drops the car. Analogy 720 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,239 even really talking to clients about their professional endeavors, when 721 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,480 they're succeeding, when they're doing well, when they're getting things done, 722 00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:02,840 it's just business usual. It's really not something that is 723 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,000 an abnormal rollercoaster of events. That's not how you run 724 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,519 a business. That's not how you lead people. You have 725 00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:13,960 to lead people through consistency, relentless consistency. I think at 726 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,760 the end of the day, with golf, it is the 727 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,360 ultimate challenge on staying more or less agnostic emotionally. As 728 00:42:22,559 --> 00:42:27,320 it's so precise. We will have you know, misses and yeah, 729 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,880 please don't quote me, but it was a legend, legend 730 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,079 of the game. I think it was Hogan or Hagan 731 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:39,039 that said, basically, he budgeted four bad swings into a round. 732 00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:41,599 Every single round. He budgeted the fact that I am 733 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,199 completely an acceptance of four essentially gimmes. It's not that 734 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,960 he's re hitting or anything, but he essentially said, hey, 735 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,679 if I make a bad swing or just chop it up, 736 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,559 cops are doing business right. And you know, any of 737 00:42:57,559 --> 00:42:59,480 those guys that made a name for themselves back in 738 00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:06,000 the day relentlessly incredible ball strikers, they just don't really nice. Uh. 739 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,360 And you know, for that kind of player to say, 740 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,440 you know what, at four times, I'm going to give 741 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,039 myself grace. Every single round, I'm gonna give myself grace 742 00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:16,320 four times. So I think it's it's kind of looking 743 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,400 in the mirror at whatever stage you're at. If you're 744 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,840 a competitive, you know, tour pro, if you're a recognercial player, 745 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,000 if you're a mid am, if you're a college player, 746 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,639 probably more than four times you're going to let yourself down, right. 747 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you definitely need to budget a little bit more 748 00:43:32,039 --> 00:43:36,559 than four. Yeah, and for for you know, the people 749 00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:39,800 that I play with and at my level, it's like 750 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:46,000 budget budget for one per hole and then leave your 751 00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:47,719 and be nice to yourself. 752 00:43:48,199 --> 00:43:52,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the uh maybe a good way to 753 00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:54,840 wrap up what flow is and how to fall into 754 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,639 it is relentless acceptance, because I think the greatest sin 755 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,679 is it relates to performance psychology in the game of 756 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,679 golf is allowing one swing to impact multiple, one situation 757 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,079 to impact multiple, one bad balance to impact multiple. We 758 00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:15,920 play an imperfect game in imperfect air on imperfect surfaces. 759 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,320 So if we don't have an acceptance attitude, it's going 760 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,719 to be a little harder than it should be. And 761 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,519 I will say that maybe some of your listeners, it 762 00:44:26,639 --> 00:44:30,679 takes time. Over time. You know, if you have the 763 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,119 attitude of acceptance, tomorrow, there's still going to be frustration, 764 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,119 There's still going to be headwinds there, it's still going 765 00:44:36,159 --> 00:44:39,079 to be difficulties, But in time, it's more or less 766 00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:42,280 a rationalization that you know, this is the better path. 767 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,320 I always like to say that in certain context, released 768 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,519 in golf context, that mental toughness really is a rationalization 769 00:44:50,599 --> 00:44:53,480 that this is the best path. I'm not going I'm 770 00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:55,920 gonna choose not to respond to this in a highly 771 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,880 emotional state, because I know that a highly emotional state 772 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,199 is going to impact next, maybe even impacts one after that. 773 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,400 So I think at the end of the day, flow 774 00:45:05,519 --> 00:45:10,159 is all about relentless consistency and relentless acceptance. 775 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 2: Wow, I got to write that one down an acceptance, 776 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,840 and I love the line flow is agnostic to emotion. 777 00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:31,159 That's really powerful stuff. Maybe that's the title of episode. 778 00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:37,159 I don't know. So are you publishing your findings and 779 00:45:37,199 --> 00:45:40,000 your work online? How do we learn more about what 780 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:40,400 you're doing? 781 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: John, late May, early June. I'll have it available twenty 782 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:47,480 twenty five, Yes, twenty twenty five. 783 00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 2: It's a podcast. 784 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: We have to say that, so I haven't gotten used 785 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,480 to that. Yeah. In short order, I'm going to have 786 00:45:56,519 --> 00:45:59,960 some interviews that will be rather interesting. I do believe 787 00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:02,400 that a lot of the commentary there is going to 788 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,239 be a little bit more academic, but I'm going to 789 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,039 try to kind of more or less summarize it in 790 00:46:08,039 --> 00:46:10,760 a readable fashion and have that available on my website 791 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,679 probably probably late June, early July. At that point, I 792 00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:18,480 can't say that I'm writing anything currently. I'm mainly working 793 00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:24,440 with clients, is it currently? But yeah, I hope to 794 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,960 get some more information about the findings because I do 795 00:46:27,079 --> 00:46:32,280 believe that in its individual nature it is. Really it's 796 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,239 still at this point academia is still kind of stretched 797 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,119 their head. It's okay, we know that this is here, 798 00:46:38,199 --> 00:46:40,800 but we can't really describe what it is and why 799 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,199 is it or how do I experience it or how 800 00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:46,440 does somebody else experience it. So hoping to bring a 801 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,239 little bit more clarity to that. But as it relates 802 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,800 to golf, I just hope to help individual shoot some 803 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,800 lower scores here soon. 804 00:46:56,199 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 2: Well, I really appreciate the journey that we took with 805 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,840 you in how we started out for your golf journey 806 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,880 and then brought it to your studies and your thesis 807 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:14,519 really fascinating and thank you and best of luck man, 808 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,000 and let's stay in touch. 809 00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me Fred