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<v Speaker 1>Justin Worship, as host of The Dad Podcast, joins us

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<v Speaker 1>on Wednesdays to talk parenting. We love it when Justin

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<v Speaker 1>is here. It is a fastest half hour and radio

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<v Speaker 1>nothing but a good time. No, you're what they called

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<v Speaker 1>me in high school. Nothing but that's not true. That's

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<v Speaker 1>going to start lying to people now.

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<v Speaker 2>Justin, that's a good point, Shannon, I'm sorry dumped that.

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<v Speaker 3>Jacob to your credit. Never mind, I'm.

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<v Speaker 4>Just gonna say it like it's new Shannon that doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>say things on the air for some reason.

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<v Speaker 5>Weird.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really it's like.

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<v Speaker 4>A fun like you know, you've been with your partner

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<v Speaker 4>for a while and you learn something new about them,

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<v Speaker 4>kind of a thing that to me feels like this,

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<v Speaker 4>you're left handed. Yeah, I didn't know that, Like, I

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<v Speaker 4>didn't know this was the skills that she had. And

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<v Speaker 4>it's fun, as much as it might be annoying to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, well, what was she gonna say? Like, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know why, but I find it compelling and interesting.

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<v Speaker 5>We're looking through this article about signs that you're too

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<v Speaker 5>hard on your kid. Before we get into the signs,

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<v Speaker 5>Shannon actually brought something up earlier in the show, and

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<v Speaker 5>I thought Okay, so you would agree with me that

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<v Speaker 5>if you're thinking, if you're even entertaining the thought, am

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<v Speaker 5>I being too hard or too lenient on the kids?

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<v Speaker 4>Fine, you're probably okay. And this is I'm saying this seriously.

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<v Speaker 4>Every expert that I ever talked to on the Dad

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<v Speaker 4>podcast said those words almost verbatim that whether you're a

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<v Speaker 4>child development specialist, psychologists, a doctor, or like social worker,

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<v Speaker 4>like anything that would be like worried or focused on

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<v Speaker 4>the development of a child and parenting, they all said

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<v Speaker 4>the exact same thing. If you're worried about whether or

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<v Speaker 4>not you are being a good parent, you're not the

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<v Speaker 4>people that we need to worry about or should be

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<v Speaker 4>talking about.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean the old trope of.

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<v Speaker 5>Beaver's mom, June Cleaver saying something to Ward like don't

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<v Speaker 5>you think you're being a little hard on the Beaver

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<v Speaker 5>and Death.

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<v Speaker 2>Was like, what are you talking about? Ward?

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<v Speaker 5>Cleaver could give two rips about whether he was too

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<v Speaker 5>hard on Wally and Beaver.

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<v Speaker 4>This has always been my thing in parenting is that

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<v Speaker 4>I know lots of people who are very, very sweet

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<v Speaker 4>to their kids, and it makes zero sense to me.

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<v Speaker 2>But in my experience, anecdotally, I'm saying those.

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<v Speaker 4>Kids, for whatever reason, have so much animosity for their

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<v Speaker 4>parents and struggle like I wish because it seems wildly counterintuitive.

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<v Speaker 2>But I also know people who were severely.

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<v Speaker 4>Abused, like emotionally and physically, and yet they somehow grow

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<v Speaker 4>up to have an easier time in adulthood than those

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<v Speaker 4>people who had been coddled and loved and been gentlely

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<v Speaker 4>treated or handled their entire life. I don't understand. It

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't make sense, but that's what I've seen across the board.

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<v Speaker 4>I haven't seen a contradiction in my own personal experience

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<v Speaker 4>to that.

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<v Speaker 3>I have a hypothetical to ask you guys.

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<v Speaker 1>A story, and I think that this happens pretty I

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to say regularly, but it happens where let's

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<v Speaker 1>just say, a teenage boy is involved with his first

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<v Speaker 1>girlfriend or whatever in school and she's wildly possessive. She

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't want him to have female friendships, she doesn't want

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<v Speaker 1>him to have interaction with his sister's friends, nothing like

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of cuts him off from his friends. Not

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<v Speaker 1>the extracurriculars, because they're both in the same kind of extracurriculars,

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<v Speaker 1>but to the point where this person is changing. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>this kid, this young boys, you know, obviously affected, is

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<v Speaker 1>being manipulated, and it's a highly toxic relationship, and she's

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<v Speaker 1>highly territorial and abusive, some would argue, and the parents

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<v Speaker 1>have done everything. They've cut the kid off, they've taken

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<v Speaker 1>the kid's car away, they've they have access to the

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<v Speaker 1>text messages all the things she says vile things about

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<v Speaker 1>the parents as well via text.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very specific hypothetical. Are you picking up on

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<v Speaker 2>the story that I heard?

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<v Speaker 1>And I was completely and I was listening to the story, and.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm thinking, what a nightmare?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I mean, not being a parent, What do

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<v Speaker 1>you do in that situation?

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<v Speaker 4>What I would tell you is that I would do

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<v Speaker 4>is when they get to that age, because we're talking

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<v Speaker 4>teenage years, I've already kind of hit that point where

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<v Speaker 4>I was just thinking about this last week where I'm

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<v Speaker 4>not really doing a lot of parenting anymore to my

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<v Speaker 4>sixteen and thirteen year old. Like there's guidance that is suggested,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's hardly heard. It's pretty much dismissed on a

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<v Speaker 4>regular basis now. So it's really just about keeping the

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<v Speaker 4>bumpers up, is kind of my approach. Now because you

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<v Speaker 4>have to let them and I remind them of that.

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<v Speaker 4>I go, you're at an agent, you're going to decide

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<v Speaker 4>to not listen to me. So it's hard because I

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<v Speaker 4>think that they've done everything they could do to keep

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<v Speaker 4>the kids safe, because they're at least by monitoring text

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<v Speaker 4>messages and that kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>In my opinion, I know there's lots of parents.

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<v Speaker 4>Who believe that bs of like privacy and all that stuff,

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<v Speaker 4>and I'm not a fan.

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<v Speaker 2>I just don't.

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<v Speaker 4>I didn't think I would be this guy when my

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<v Speaker 4>kids were younger. But I'm like, if you don't get

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<v Speaker 4>privacy until you pay for stuff on your own and

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<v Speaker 4>move out, like, that's when I will respect your privacy.

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<v Speaker 4>But when you need me to provide everything to you,

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<v Speaker 4>that also can become a tool that I feel like

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<v Speaker 4>I need to use to make sure you're being safe,

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<v Speaker 4>and I decide to what extent I allow you to

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<v Speaker 4>have privacy in that regard, that's my opinion. But so

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<v Speaker 4>you're aware so that nobody's getting hurt, that's all you

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<v Speaker 4>can do, and you have to let it run its

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<v Speaker 4>course because when they're teenagers, they don't want.

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<v Speaker 2>To listen to you, and the more you push, the

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<v Speaker 2>harder they push back, and you're fighting yourself in a.

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<v Speaker 1>Quick s the mistakes and figure it out. Yeah, tough,

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<v Speaker 1>it is.

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<v Speaker 4>I Like, I'll be honest, just sitting here listening to

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<v Speaker 4>that circumstance, I'm imagining each of my sons being like

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<v Speaker 4>trying to figure out what I would do, and I

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<v Speaker 4>don't even like my answer, but I do feel confident

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<v Speaker 4>that that's what I would do it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd just be like, we're just gonna have to wait

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<v Speaker 2>this out and see how it goes.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, because you can't necessarily drive an intentional wedge between

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<v Speaker 5>your kid and whoever they're in the relationship with, because

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<v Speaker 5>depending on your kid's personality, that draws them to that

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<v Speaker 5>person even more, no matter how abusive or manipulative that

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<v Speaker 5>other person is. That there's an ingrained pushback to whatever

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<v Speaker 5>your parents do, period, and when your parents tell you

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<v Speaker 5>it's wrong or illegal or you can't do it in

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<v Speaker 5>this house, then you turn around and you're drawn to

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<v Speaker 5>that thing that is now off limits.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>I would almost argue that much like we talk a

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<v Speaker 4>lot about being overprotective, right, that that somehow that delays,

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<v Speaker 4>that stunts the development by slowing down the connection in

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<v Speaker 4>this relationship. You might be prolonging it unintentionally, right, the

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<v Speaker 4>more you just let them confront the crazy Because my

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<v Speaker 4>parents I had a girlfriend in high school that my

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<v Speaker 4>parents didn't like at all, and thankfully they just kind

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<v Speaker 4>of let it go.

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<v Speaker 2>They would drop.

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<v Speaker 4>Hints of like, no, that seems a little nutty, man,

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<v Speaker 4>like are you sure like that kind of stuff, and

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<v Speaker 4>then after a while I came out of the fog

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<v Speaker 4>of sex.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just like, oh, yeah, she is a little kooky.

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<v Speaker 2>This is not right.

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<v Speaker 1>A right.

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<v Speaker 5>Parents dot Com had this article about signs that you're

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<v Speaker 5>being too hard on your kid, according to psychologists, and

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<v Speaker 5>there's a.

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<v Speaker 2>Couple of them already putting to psychologists like what do

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<v Speaker 2>they know?

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, the first one here is your tone is

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<v Speaker 5>consistently harsh. We are all awful. We're awful judges of

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<v Speaker 5>how our tone is.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course it is.

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<v Speaker 5>In the middle of the moment. You're never going to

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<v Speaker 5>be able to temper your tone. I am in a

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<v Speaker 5>moment right now, and stop telling me I'm not.

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<v Speaker 4>You know. The only part that bums me out about

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<v Speaker 4>this is that your fantastic producer Keiana found the articles

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<v Speaker 4>for this week normally I find them, but whenever I

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<v Speaker 4>come across something like this that I read it and

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<v Speaker 4>I felt this way when I read it. When she

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<v Speaker 4>said to Tommy, like, what do you think of this?

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<v Speaker 4>I was like, I like it when it pokes gary

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<v Speaker 4>and I just see something. It always tickles my soul

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<v Speaker 4>when I know that I'm gonna come in and you

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<v Speaker 4>go like, what the hell is it there?

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<v Speaker 3>That's why I brought the Westminster Dog.

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<v Speaker 4>As person listening to it, pure joy, pure joy the

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<v Speaker 4>whole time.

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<v Speaker 2>I agree, I thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 4>So having said all of this, is I am guilty

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<v Speaker 4>of a lot of these. I'm way too harsh on

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<v Speaker 4>my kids, arguably, Like the one that I think is

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<v Speaker 4>garbage is if you only give love when they're exhibiting

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<v Speaker 4>good behavior.

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<v Speaker 3>What the that's awful? Withholding love? I think is a gross.

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<v Speaker 2>But here's the thing. But hold on because I'm its

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<v Speaker 2>favor of this.

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<v Speaker 4>That's what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't withhold love.

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<v Speaker 4>But when my kids being.

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<v Speaker 2>A colossal ahil ahle, how.

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<v Speaker 3>Does it make holding love though?

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<v Speaker 1>Like being a punishing I would say, and and withholding

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<v Speaker 1>love for two different things? N that.

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<v Speaker 4>But see, this is what I'm saying the way these

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<v Speaker 4>articles get written, as a guy who's read them for

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<v Speaker 4>the entire time my kids has been around, is that

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<v Speaker 4>it messes with your head when I think you're a

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<v Speaker 4>parent who has good intentions.

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<v Speaker 2>Like they don't they don't express until the very end.

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<v Speaker 2>They have this buried thing and.

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<v Speaker 4>Like the emotional like we talked, there's another segment, but

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<v Speaker 4>talking about emotional parentification right where a kid is now,

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<v Speaker 4>you give kids responsibilities and that's that's not Maybe that's

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<v Speaker 4>not a good thing, and I think that's garbage.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're emotionally codependent on your kid, yes, that's garbage.

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<v Speaker 4>But to say things like if you find yourself criticizing

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<v Speaker 4>them more than anything.

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<v Speaker 2>But sure that.

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<v Speaker 4>But if I my kid's just having a bad couple months,

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<v Speaker 4>it's not helping him for me to blow sunshine up

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<v Speaker 4>his ass.

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<v Speaker 2>Like what does that do any good for? Well?

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<v Speaker 5>And I think that is the balance That is not

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<v Speaker 5>necessarily the root of parenting, but it is is a

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<v Speaker 5>challenging part of parenting is figuring out, Okay, I have

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<v Speaker 5>to be able to when they exhibit bad behavior, I

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<v Speaker 5>have to be able to punish them, Yes, but they

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<v Speaker 5>also have to know at the end of that that

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<v Speaker 5>I still love them.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm doing it because I love them, right, And.

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<v Speaker 5>That I think is one of the struggles that people

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<v Speaker 5>have is like, well, if I come down, if I

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<v Speaker 5>ground my kid for doing something stupid, or if I

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<v Speaker 5>punish them for this, They're going to think I don't

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<v Speaker 5>love them, and.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't They couldn't be further from the truth.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, yes, but you're also trying to put it.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, you as an adult know that, but then

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<v Speaker 5>you're trying to put it through the math of what

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<v Speaker 5>a nine year old thinks or a fourteen year old things,

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<v Speaker 5>and it doesn't work that way. Like you have to

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<v Speaker 5>sit comfortably in the fact that if you constantly show

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<v Speaker 5>them that you love them in other ways, then the

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<v Speaker 5>punishment might actually mean more and the punishment might actually

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<v Speaker 5>take hold.

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<v Speaker 1>How often do kids act out to get love in

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<v Speaker 1>the form of punishment, right, Yeah, Like I need attention.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to lash out because I'm not feeling the

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<v Speaker 1>love or whatever. I'm not feeling neglected or what have you,

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<v Speaker 1>And so you lash out to get that kind of punishment,

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<v Speaker 1>because that's a way. I mean, I think that that's

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<v Speaker 1>kids don't know their brains are working that way, but

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's death.

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<v Speaker 3>We've seen that countless times.

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<v Speaker 4>I guess maybe what I should be saying is that

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<v Speaker 4>if whatever it is that you're doing right doesn't seem

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<v Speaker 4>to be having any kind of a result, then maybe

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<v Speaker 4>take a moment to go is there maybe a better way,

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<v Speaker 4>but not to immediately also bail on it. Like there's

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<v Speaker 4>so much to be said about just maintaining consistency.

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<v Speaker 3>When do you hit the kids.

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<v Speaker 4>Honestly, when I think it's a last resort to be

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<v Speaker 4>If I'm being honest, I know you're maybe probably kind

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<v Speaker 4>of joking, But like I, I don't know. I've only

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<v Speaker 4>hit each of my kids once and it genuinely didn't work.

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<v Speaker 4>Like it just it more upset them than it did

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<v Speaker 4>got their attention. But when my dad told me the story,

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<v Speaker 4>I was like two, and I guess I or one

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<v Speaker 4>and have two. I bit a kid on the cheek.

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<v Speaker 4>My dad, without thinking about it, just reached out and

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<v Speaker 4>thumped me in the head.

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<v Speaker 2>And he told me the story. He goes because he

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<v Speaker 2>used to thump me on the head, knuckle me on

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<v Speaker 2>the head. That was my entire life.

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<v Speaker 4>And everybody told us, she's like, geez, your dad really

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<v Speaker 4>was abusive to you, But he told me.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought it was sweet abuse.

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<v Speaker 4>He told me the story, and he goes, I thumped

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<v Speaker 4>you in the head. You immediately let.

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<v Speaker 3>Go of the kid, freaking Hannibal. What was he supposed

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<v Speaker 3>to do?

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<v Speaker 4>I said, you let go of the kid, You turn

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<v Speaker 4>around and you made direct eye contact.

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<v Speaker 2>And my dad said and goes, That's when I knew

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<v Speaker 2>that was your thing.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like, you gotta figure out what it is that

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<v Speaker 3>works on your kid, correct.

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<v Speaker 4>And this I just my thing is I just don't

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<v Speaker 4>want people beating themselves up because they're hard on their kids,

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<v Speaker 4>because I don't think that's the problem that parents have

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<v Speaker 4>right now.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not the focus. Is being too hard on your

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<v Speaker 2>kids probably shouldn't be your worry.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well, and there will be people who say, I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>there are abusive parents out there, and that yes, that

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<v Speaker 5>there always have been and unfortunately there always will be. Correct,

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<v Speaker 5>it's just a matter of what you do with it

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<v Speaker 5>when you when you're when you're raised in that and

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<v Speaker 5>then are around other people for a lot of I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>like I talk about this many times. My eye opening

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<v Speaker 5>days were the first few months that I was in

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<v Speaker 5>college because I was around people who weren't like me.

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<v Speaker 5>They didn't grow up like me. They didn't grow up

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<v Speaker 5>in the same house like I did. They didn't grow

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<v Speaker 5>up in the same part of the state that I did.

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<v Speaker 5>That was eye opening for me that there were other

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<v Speaker 5>people in this world. And there's a point where and

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<v Speaker 5>if you grow up in an abusive house, you may

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<v Speaker 5>not know that it's an abusive house until you're around

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<v Speaker 5>enough other people who can confirm for you your suspicions.

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<v Speaker 5>That's not the way it's supposed to be. It's then

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<v Speaker 5>that you have to make the decision. Okay, which path

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<v Speaker 5>am I going to choose? I know what didn't work

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<v Speaker 5>for me, I know what was wrong with my upbringing.

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<v Speaker 5>How do I change it and make sure it doesn't

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<v Speaker 5>happen to my kids? If you're even conscious of it,

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<v Speaker 5>if you're able to make such a mature decision like

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<v Speaker 5>that at some point in your life, and if you're

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<v Speaker 5>sitting at home and you're that stressed or worried about it,

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<v Speaker 5>maybe get some therapy and go see a couple therapists

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<v Speaker 5>to get at least a second opinion, like to see

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<v Speaker 5>what their thought is. Because I venture a guest that

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<v Speaker 5>probably eighty to ninety percent of the people who are

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<v Speaker 5>out there, like we talked about to start. The other

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<v Speaker 5>segment that are worried about this probably don't need to

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<v Speaker 5>be worried about it, but you can get somebody else

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<v Speaker 5>who's an expert and can weigh in and tell you, no,

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<v Speaker 5>that's emotionally abusive. Like what I learned from my therapist

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<v Speaker 5>was my family did not have boundaries. We talked about

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<v Speaker 5>something nobody should ever talk about.

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<v Speaker 4>I know, right, it's weird and so, but it's I'm

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<v Speaker 4>totally emotionally like grounded.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't overshare myself at all. I find that that.

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<v Speaker 3>May be why you're so easy to talk to.

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<v Speaker 1>It be around it is because yes, you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have boundaries.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a reason for everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Personally I've chosen. I genuinely I like it.

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<v Speaker 4>I like it that people laugh at me about I

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<v Speaker 4>know so much about my parents sex life that people

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<v Speaker 4>should not know. And I gotta go.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll talk more about it when we come back. Is

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<v Speaker 2>that swamp watches my parents?

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<v Speaker 3>How granular are we talking about?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Very? Oh yeah, I'll tell you one thing off the air,

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<v Speaker 2>all right?

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<v Speaker 3>Is it something you've told your therapist already.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh not, Yes, this is the thing I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>tell you is the thing?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, all right, we'll see you next week. Maybe Gary

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<v Speaker 5>and Shannon will continue right after this