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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, it's dot net rocks from build. I'm
Speaker 1: Carl Franklin A Richard Campbell. We're a Microsoft build in Seattle,
Speaker 1: and I noticed this morning when I walked in here,
Speaker 1: I am the only human in Seattle wearing shorts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course you are. And I thought, which is
Speaker 2: weird because normally celebrity wear shorts, do they? Yeah, shorts,
Speaker 2: sandals and a gortex jacket to go together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the Birkenstocks, right, yeah, yeah, but you know,
Speaker 1: because it's little rainy, I guess people put on their
Speaker 1: long pants. But I don't know what it feels like short.
Speaker 1: It's spring here, can tell. But I looked all around build,
Speaker 1: only one wearing shorts. Walk down to the hotel today.
Speaker 1: Only One'm wearing shorts, all right, he So tomorrow I'll
Speaker 1: be in pants and I'll be more blending in Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, so I'll get my shorts on. Yeah before
Speaker 1: we do better. No, framework, let's talk about nineteen fifty four.
Speaker 1: What do you want to say about nineteen fifty four? Well,
Speaker 1: that is the number of our show today, true, nineteen
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty four. Yeah, holy crap. So nineteen fifty
Speaker 1: four was your significant events, including the Supreme Court's Brown
Speaker 1: versus Board of Education decision, which ruled school segregation unconstitutional.
Speaker 1: Imagine that. Wow, that's all I'm going to say, nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty four. Yeah, other note, they were stupid in nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty four. What did they know? Don't think that's true?
Speaker 1: What did they know? All right? Other notable happenings included
Speaker 1: the mass vaccination of children against polio, the beginning of
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, and the debut the first nuclear powered submarine,
Speaker 1: the USS Nautilus, which has a significance is that of
Speaker 1: g Yeah, that's right, Groton, Connecticut. My father worked there,
Speaker 1: my mother worked, my brother Jay worked at the electric boat.
Speaker 2: They built a prototype reactor in Idaho, because that's a
Speaker 2: good place to put a build a reactor, you know,
Speaker 2: for a submarine.
Speaker 1: In Idaho. Well, you know where my father and mother
Speaker 1: went on their honeymoon, Idaho. Interest that's why the reactor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's.
Speaker 2: Where ricked Over was. That was where all the experiments.
Speaker 1: Were being done. So interesting, isn't that funny?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So yeah, I have a little history with electric boat.
Speaker 1: I never worked there myself, General Dynamic electric boat. But
Speaker 1: because I don't know, I was kind of a little hippie.
Speaker 2: He didn't you didn't want to be a nable architect
Speaker 2: like your brother.
Speaker 1: Well it's not that. I just didn't want to contribute
Speaker 1: to the war machine. You know. I thought I you know,
Speaker 1: I thought I knew everything when I was twelve whatever.
Speaker 2: So anyway, you must have some I mean Joseph Salk
Speaker 2: certainly and important, oh yes, you know. And Plio yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: and that was huge also the founding of CERN really yeah,
Speaker 2: the European Organization for Research in Nuclear Materials. Right, and
Speaker 2: they discovered the god particle, well they possibly they found
Speaker 2: in twenty twelve they found a candidate in the Bosun
Speaker 2: class of sufficient mass and they got what one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty five GeV that would be comparable to what
Speaker 2: Higgs had said would should exist.
Speaker 1: Okay, but what I remember from twenty twelve is a
Speaker 1: everybody lost their minds thinking these guys were going to
Speaker 1: blow up the world.
Speaker 2: Well it was blown before that. That was we're going
Speaker 2: to make the black.
Speaker 1: Holes right and thus blow up the world. And then
Speaker 1: they said they found it, they found the god part.
Speaker 1: It was a bit more complicated than that, but that's
Speaker 1: what the news reported. Yeah, they said they simplified a lot.
Speaker 1: They also found a bunch of other interesting things like pentaquarics,
Speaker 1: and the configurations didn't even make sense, even locations of supersymmetry.
Speaker 1: We've every thinks that only Richard Campbell would undersleeve, never
Speaker 1: done this. Geek out, but no way, I have a
Speaker 1: lot of notes. Are we talking end of twenty twenty five?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's it's a lot. It's a ton of work
Speaker 2: to actually put that whole story together. But all right,
Speaker 2: they've also got that that's the largest anti manufacturer in
Speaker 2: the world. If you live from any matter, that's where
Speaker 2: you go.
Speaker 1: And it also spawns the novel Angels and Demons by
Speaker 1: Dan Brown. Okay, do you remember it? You know what
Speaker 1: I'm trying. Yeah, Okay, So before we introduce Debbie, let's
Speaker 1: get to better no framework. All right, all the music?
Speaker 1: What do you got? So again, I'm really into this.
Speaker 1: What's trending on githubb list. It's an aggregator that looks at,
Speaker 1: you know, the most popular GitHub repos and some of
Speaker 1: them are nuts, but some of them are pretty cool.
Speaker 1: And this one isn't development oriented. But it's YouTube music.
Speaker 2: And it's literally YouTube music.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, it's under the thhhh account on its YouTube
Speaker 1: dash music all right, thhch dot GitHub dot io slash
Speaker 1: YouTube dash music. Or because this is nineteen fifty four,
Speaker 1: you go to one ninety five to four dot pop
Speaker 1: dot me. So it's a YouTube music desktop app bundled
Speaker 1: with custom plugins and a built in AD blocker and downloader. Right,
Speaker 1: but this is using electron, so it's an Electron wrapper
Speaker 1: around YouTube music. Cool. They got all sorts of interesting
Speaker 1: features including you know, themes and build your own plugins
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, and an AD blocker and a downloader,
Speaker 1: which apparently has been the holy grail of spammers, you know, malware.
Speaker 1: Would they go out and say, hey, we have this
Speaker 1: YouTube download because everybody wants to download a video from YouTube, right,
Speaker 1: everybody has in the past to do that because they
Speaker 1: don't know how long it's going to be up there,
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, and there's all sorts of malware
Speaker 1: that says they can do that and they infect your machine.
Speaker 1: It's terrible. I have no idea if this is malware
Speaker 1: or not. I did not run it. However, since it's
Speaker 1: trending on GitHub, I'm assuming that people like it, and
Speaker 1: they like it because it works, and you know, that's it.
Speaker 1: But the ad blocker in the downloader by itself is
Speaker 1: probably a good reason to check it out. Awesome, So
Speaker 1: there you go. Love it. Yeah, who's talking to us today?
Speaker 1: Richard Abdy comment off show nineteen seventeen, which you did
Speaker 1: back in September twenty twenty four. We've talked to one
Speaker 1: de Wi O'Brien. Maybe you've heard her. Yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: oddly enough, we were talking about playwright I know, shocking
Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen when jazz took over New Orleans something like that.
Speaker 2: I think it was also the middle of World War One.
Speaker 2: But let's talk I complicated now, Okay. A ton of
Speaker 2: comments on that show, by the way, and Edwin Aughten
Speaker 2: had this commed. He says, thanks for yet another interesting show.
Speaker 2: Regarding the challenge. You guys discussed with Debbie about finding
Speaker 2: which obscure CSS file is making your element in VIE,
Speaker 2: something we talked about.
Speaker 1: I hate that.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, he says, when using dev tools in Chrome
Speaker 2: or Edge to inspect CSS, you can go to the
Speaker 2: computed tab to show the values that the browser is
Speaker 2: actually applying on the rendered element.
Speaker 1: But you have you still have to crawl through the
Speaker 1: hierarchy of CSS to find the ancestor or the one
Speaker 1: thing that set that that is being cascaded down. It's
Speaker 1: really a pain.
Speaker 2: But in theory you should be able to hover over
Speaker 2: that and see all the computed values.
Speaker 1: You see the computed bit.
Speaker 2: And then search on that value. You might find that
Speaker 2: file you're not looking right, So that's the idea. So Edwin,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for your comment and a copy
Speaker 2: of music Coba. It's on its way to you. And
Speaker 2: if you'd like a copy of music Koba, I write
Speaker 2: a comment on the website at dot rocks dot com or.
Speaker 1: On the facebooks.
Speaker 2: We should publish every show there and even comment there,
Speaker 2: and everybody on the show we'll send you copy Music Koba.
Speaker 1: Music to Code by of course still going strong. Twenty
Speaker 1: two episodes music to code by dot Net and you
Speaker 1: get the entire collection in MP three wave or flack format.
Speaker 1: And before we get started with Debbie, I want to
Speaker 1: say that Jeff Fritz and I did an episode of
Speaker 1: the Blazer Puzzle episode seventy yeah called Playwriter's Block. Ah,
Speaker 1: what a great name, which we want to know why
Speaker 1: simple playwright test fails in a standard Blazer server app.
Speaker 1: And that's all I'm going to say. You're going to
Speaker 1: have to go find out why and you can try
Speaker 1: to fix it yourself before you see the solution, okay.
Speaker 1: Wi O'Brien is a Principal program manager at Microsoft with
Speaker 1: over fifteen years of experience in front end development. She's
Speaker 1: worked as a tech lead and consultant for many important
Speaker 1: clients with various technologies and often with a strong focus
Speaker 1: on performance, static sites and testing. She has led teams
Speaker 1: both in house and remotely, as well as giving workshops
Speaker 1: and training. She has many years of experience as a
Speaker 1: mentor for online learning platforms, Treehouse and open classrooms. Debbie
Speaker 1: is a Google developer, experting web technologies, cloudingnir Media Developer Expert,
Speaker 1: and Next Ambassador, as well as a GitHub Star alumni
Speaker 1: and previous Microsoft most valuable professional and developer technologies to them, nothing,
Speaker 1: she said. When she entered the room, right, she said
Speaker 1: to them, welcome.
Speaker 3: I think I need to just remove some stuff from
Speaker 3: that profile.
Speaker 1: You know, I only read the first paragraph. There were three,
Speaker 1: there's more. It's one thing to read it.
Speaker 2: It's you know you've done those things, no question about that.
Speaker 2: And but it's the other thing to rehab it all
Speaker 2: read to you.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's tough, intimidating.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Who is that person? Wait, it can't
Speaker 1: be you, but Jeff Fritz and I are a huge
Speaker 1: fan of playwright. Playwright of course is you know as
Speaker 1: a fresting tamwork. I almost said a frest where we
Speaker 1: going a testing framework for websites that goes out and
Speaker 1: actually executes against your website and you you can essentially
Speaker 1: write programmable scripts. It's great. Yeah, and we use it
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 2: If you want to scrape a website, play rights the
Speaker 2: way to go.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks, that's I mean, that's the point.
Speaker 3: That's something different.
Speaker 1: I have. I have written scripts to scrape websites. Who hasn't,
Speaker 1: right obviously, and Playwright's great for that because you can
Speaker 1: essentially what it's for it's not what it's for, but
Speaker 1: it's still great for that.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean seeing that you've opened up this and
Speaker 3: so yeah, obviously, like testing is the key focus of
Speaker 3: play right, and we all know that you shouldn't be
Speaker 3: you all have to be testing your applications and you
Speaker 3: shouldn't be spending time manually like doing the stuff that
Speaker 3: computers can do for you, because at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, that's just wasting time. And there is still
Speaker 3: space for manual testers and stuff. But the more you
Speaker 3: can owe it the better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it doesn't take the place of an API.
Speaker 3: And then coming back to your point where it's like
Speaker 3: basically you're talking about like scraping or browser automation. Have
Speaker 3: you used the play right MCP? Oh my god, all right.
Speaker 1: So ai'd playwright we ate, Well.
Speaker 3: We mcp'd it.
Speaker 1: So by now, if you've been listening to the last
Speaker 1: two shows, people know what MCP do.
Speaker 3: They owe amazing great, So we don't have.
Speaker 1: To control program tron is real excellent.
Speaker 3: So basically what you can now do is turn around
Speaker 3: to get up Copilot or whatever LM you're using and
Speaker 3: say go to a website and do X y Z.
Speaker 1: Right, So I actually wrote a call.
Speaker 3: Yes, I actually got it to buy a table for me.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to buy a table for my twins,
Speaker 3: so I wanted to find out the cheapest option of
Speaker 3: buying it, and I wanted to know how much the
Speaker 3: shipping cost was because I live on an island and
Speaker 3: they always throw on shipping costs and then it's not
Speaker 3: really the right price and stuff. So I asked AI
Speaker 3: using the MCP, I said, can you go and check
Speaker 3: it out? So the play Right MCP went and opened
Speaker 3: up a browser window. He went to the website that
Speaker 3: I wanted to buy the table from, the particular brand,
Speaker 3: the Stoke Table. It started searching for different combinations. It
Speaker 3: found the table plus two chairs is a cheaper option,
Speaker 3: and I wanted to buy two chairs anyway, so I
Speaker 3: buy the whole thing as a package.
Speaker 1: I say, wait, I didn't buy it for you.
Speaker 3: Not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet. I'm not
Speaker 3: there yet. It then went to the filling in the
Speaker 3: forum to find out the shipping detail. So made up
Speaker 3: an address in MAJORCA and it filled all that in
Speaker 3: with a dummy email address, and then it was able
Speaker 3: to find out the actual shipping cost. And then it
Speaker 3: was able to say, right this is the actual price
Speaker 3: of it, and then I was able to say do
Speaker 3: I want to purchase it or not right now? Because
Speaker 3: it opens up a browser and it does all the work.
Speaker 3: It's still just a browser, right, so I want to
Speaker 3: actually finish the purchasing, I could just go in and
Speaker 3: press click on the PayPal button and go and buy
Speaker 3: that table right.
Speaker 1: After you edit your address.
Speaker 3: Well I would have to edit the address because they
Speaker 3: put in a John do. But that's the power of
Speaker 3: the MCP. It's basically able to go and open up
Speaker 3: a browser, do the tasks that you could do yourself
Speaker 3: that you don't want to do, and then you can
Speaker 3: still continue because it's a browser window.
Speaker 2: Somehing magic exactly, It's just a pre filled in browser window.
Speaker 1: I got a story for you guys, and I know
Speaker 1: I've told it on Dotton it Rocks before, but it's
Speaker 1: been years. So back in the two thousands, when you know,
Speaker 1: back back in the two thousands, that's all I'm going
Speaker 1: to say. I was courted by a member of the
Speaker 1: Connecticut Technology Council. Now I'm in New London, which is
Speaker 1: in the south eastern Connecticut, and the people in Hartford,
Speaker 1: they don't like New Londoners, like they're big eastnobby kind
Speaker 1: of insurance money people and whatever. So this you know,
Speaker 1: they meet in Hartford, right, So I say, okay, I
Speaker 1: will go to a meeting. I went to a meeting.
Speaker 1: I joined the Technology Council whatever, paid my three hundred
Speaker 1: dollars whatever, and went to one of their meetings. And
Speaker 1: it was just ridiculous. I mean, and the stuff that
Speaker 1: they were talking about was like, you know, how to
Speaker 1: log in? What is a cookie? Right? So, but they
Speaker 1: had a lot of really great members and they had
Speaker 1: a member's website, and they didn't have a mailing list.
Speaker 1: And I said, do you guys have a mailing list? No, sorry,
Speaker 1: we don't, but all our members are listed on the website.
Speaker 1: Hmmm goodness. So me being it was a kinder, gentler web.
Speaker 1: I used real sockets. I didn't even use an HTDP.
Speaker 1: There was no web client. You literally did a manual get.
Speaker 1: I did a get on the website, parts looked for
Speaker 1: the email the email tags that I wanted, logged them,
Speaker 1: you know, with their names, and blah blah blah. And
Speaker 1: I said, are you sure you don't I wrote back,
Speaker 1: are you sure you don't have a mailing lists. No,
Speaker 1: we don't have a mailing list. I'm like, would you
Speaker 1: like one? Because I basically scraped all of the emails
Speaker 1: and names from your website. It's and he said, like
Speaker 1: this is the best response. Well, you're obviously some cracker
Speaker 1: jack technology program. Like aren't you guys the Connecticut Technology Council.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't they be looking to you for technology solutions? What
Speaker 1: are you doing? That's one of my greatest superiority moments. Nice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it felt very superior, very clever. But yeah they didn't.
Speaker 3: Did they send out a mail?
Speaker 1: No, they didn't invite, But I did send out a
Speaker 1: mail to all this p and I got some great responses.
Speaker 3: It was awesome.
Speaker 1: That's funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this speaks to an interesting path for working with uh.
Speaker 2: You know you're a copilot of some kind to just
Speaker 2: be able to go fetch data from from sites through
Speaker 2: the m CP.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it can do whatever you want it
Speaker 3: to do because it is access to the browser, which
Speaker 3: is what was missing when it came to the l MS.
Speaker 3: They couldn't open a browser. Now they come.
Speaker 1: Now they can open a browser and click, they.
Speaker 3: Can type anything that playwright can do. What can play?
Speaker 1: Right? Do everything. So this MP MCP is part of
Speaker 1: play right now?
Speaker 3: Is that it's just it's a play right MCP.
Speaker 1: It's open people, you get it off NPM.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you can just click a button and and
Speaker 3: it just installs it.
Speaker 1: I think we're done where this has been dot Net
Speaker 1: rocks time thinking the amount of trouble we're about to
Speaker 1: get it. Okay, let's trouble.
Speaker 3: Let's turn it around, let's turn around.
Speaker 1: How can we use these powers for good?
Speaker 3: Well, we can test our applications.
Speaker 1: The crazy espec.
Speaker 3: What we can actually get it to write the test for.
Speaker 3: So we're here at build and I've just given a
Speaker 3: couple of demos live at bill showing how you can
Speaker 3: using natural language tell it to go to a website,
Speaker 3: and I did a demo of a movie application. So
Speaker 3: go to a movie's application, search for a movie and
Speaker 3: ensure that that movie is on the page, and write
Speaker 3: the test for it. Now, the thing is, what's the
Speaker 3: difference between asking COPA, let's just write a test. It
Speaker 3: can do it, and it guesses what the buttons are
Speaker 3: called unless it has access to the code, and it
Speaker 3: has able to then search to your code base, and
Speaker 3: then it can the MCP. No, the MCP actually go
Speaker 3: to the browser and it opens the browser page and
Speaker 3: then it takes a page snapshot, right, and the snapshot
Speaker 3: has all the context of what that page has on it.
Speaker 1: All. Right, we're really talking MCP is the protocol. You're
Speaker 1: really talking about an agent? Right?
Speaker 3: Well? Were you just using copilot here? You can use
Speaker 3: whatever you want.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is just think of it as an apik
Speaker 2: PI to play right, to be able to fetch information
Speaker 2: the CP to play right, right, which from which.
Speaker 1: You can do you have to use an agent with
Speaker 1: this or can you just use it directly?
Speaker 3: You just go to copilot. I'm using copilot. You could
Speaker 3: use whatever you want, but just let's, you know, go
Speaker 3: to copilot exactly that that supports mcps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's important. That could be most of them, not
Speaker 1: all of them, most of.
Speaker 3: Them, yes, And then you basically ask it what to do.
Speaker 3: And in my case, I was like, I want you
Speaker 3: to write a test, but very clearly I said, I
Speaker 3: don't want you to search the code base. I want
Speaker 3: you to run the steps. Yes, I want you to
Speaker 3: use the MCP, and I want you to then only
Speaker 3: after you've run all the steps, then create the test.
Speaker 1: Five I don't have to test my website. Now I
Speaker 1: can test your website. You can, yeah, because I'm reading
Speaker 1: the page.
Speaker 3: You know, it's even better if you if you went
Speaker 3: to Amanda's demo, you can actually say, go to this
Speaker 3: URL and give me some ideas of what I can test.
Speaker 1: Wow, this is great.
Speaker 3: And then it came up and it said, oh, so
Speaker 3: you have filtering on the site that could be good
Speaker 3: for testing, and then it went ahead and clicked around
Speaker 3: the filtering and then it went and created that test.
Speaker 1: That's pretty awesome. So how specific do you have to
Speaker 1: be if you tell it you want to gather some
Speaker 1: like Okay, take my example right where you have pages
Speaker 1: and pages of people of companies that are in this
Speaker 1: particular organization, and they're all listed with their names and
Speaker 1: email addresses, but you have to press next and next
Speaker 1: and next and next. There's no search. Can it assume
Speaker 1: how to do that? Can it figure out how to
Speaker 1: do that?
Speaker 3: Assume it actually clicks and does it.
Speaker 1: But you don't have to tell it to do that, right,
Speaker 1: you know, it goes in. You could just say give
Speaker 1: me all the names and address of all the people.
Speaker 3: In them, and it will find the way to do it. So,
Speaker 3: for example, in my app, it couldn't type the movie
Speaker 3: name into the search because the search needs to be
Speaker 3: clicked on first. So when it went to type right,
Speaker 3: which was the logic of there's a search field all
Speaker 3: type yeah, it went, I can't type in here. It
Speaker 3: doesn't let me. Let me take a page snapshot. And
Speaker 3: then once I had the page snapshot, it said, oh,
Speaker 3: I see, I need to click the search icon right
Speaker 3: and then I can continue typing, and then it could continue.
Speaker 1: So it actually figured it out.
Speaker 3: By taking the page snapshot.
Speaker 1: By taking the page snapshot, Wow, that's interesting. I'm my mind.
Speaker 1: You're immediately going to evil. I hear it in your vote. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know that Harvey Korman from Blazing Saddles where
Speaker 1: he says something like my mind is a swirling vortex
Speaker 1: of infinite possibilities or whatever. It was some cheesy one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's where I'm going. It's I'm not actually thinking of evil.
Speaker 1: Although Dwayne and Patrick were here, Dwayne would immediately tell
Speaker 1: me what he would use it for evil.
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about winning, you know, sweepstakes by filling
Speaker 2: in as many.
Speaker 1: Forms as you want. Well, hopefully the website has some
Speaker 1: sort of you know, anti denial of search.
Speaker 2: Well, you're claiming they're gonna find out pretty quick, aren't they.
Speaker 1: But but what you're saying is like you could just
Speaker 1: basically say any website that you can't figure out, you
Speaker 1: can instead of asking chat GPT, Let's say, hey, how
Speaker 1: do I use whatever Twitter to change my profile picture? Right?
Speaker 1: Because I don't want to click through and figure out
Speaker 1: how to do that. You just say here's a picture,
Speaker 1: change my Twitter profile picture and it could figure it out. Right.
Speaker 3: I would love to see that in action, but most
Speaker 3: likely us. I mean, you have to think about the
Speaker 3: login data. So you've got to decide are you going
Speaker 3: to log in first and then it's logged in and
Speaker 3: then you use the LM to continue the process. I
Speaker 3: would do that because you don't want to give your
Speaker 3: user credentials to the l.
Speaker 1: You're right, And this is this is something that we
Speaker 1: brought up with the other guests that we've had so far,
Speaker 1: which is security.
Speaker 3: Nothing is secure.
Speaker 1: CP isn't very secure right now.
Speaker 3: It depends. It depends on whose hands it's in it
Speaker 3: has access to. I mean, Carl, I think it's not
Speaker 3: secure with you, all right, tche.
Speaker 1: All right, Carl zero WI one. But but right now,
Speaker 1: and Scott Hunter told us this, right now, you know,
Speaker 1: you have to give it access to your keys in
Speaker 1: a local file or something like that. But they're working
Speaker 1: on it, Like by this time next year they'll have
Speaker 1: some sort of Azure entity where all the keys are
Speaker 1: stored there. Nobody knows the keys but Azure. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the MCP probably next.
Speaker 3: MCP is so new and everything is happening so fast
Speaker 3: that like even just the out protocol for the MCP
Speaker 3: is like not even a month old, right, So there's
Speaker 3: everything is just happening and everything is being improved. But
Speaker 3: for sure, when you're using it, be very careful of
Speaker 3: what you give to the LM, because you know, you
Speaker 3: don't want to say, here's my Twitter credentials, go in
Speaker 3: and and create my profile picture whenever, because you don't
Speaker 3: know then what happened after that.
Speaker 1: So you can obviously use the same browser instance that
Speaker 1: you're using regularly, exactly because.
Speaker 3: Of persistent browser context, you can actually just log in
Speaker 3: and then get the LM.
Speaker 1: To do some of it's beautiful.
Speaker 2: There may be a side by side play, but I know,
Speaker 2: I like just in your table example, so you're just
Speaker 2: watching it do a certain amount of work, and at
Speaker 2: some point you can step.
Speaker 1: In and do what you want to do with it.
Speaker 1: There was a special there was a story recently about
Speaker 1: an agent that was created and somebody said, find the
Speaker 1: cheapest price on ax on Amazon and actually found what
Speaker 1: it thought was the cheapest price and then ordered it.
Speaker 1: But it didn't the person didn't tell the agent to
Speaker 1: order it. Not only did it order it and charge
Speaker 1: them in an ordering amount of money. However, it wasn't
Speaker 1: the cheapest price.
Speaker 3: But that's silly because you let them go forward and
Speaker 3: gave it a credit card. I wouldn't give it my
Speaker 3: credit card.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't either, but they did. Ye.
Speaker 2: If you're going to let it onto Amazon where you've got.
Speaker 3: You know, oh you're already locked in And that's right.
Speaker 1: You're story. You've got your default credit card? Well you
Speaker 1: know you know you did it to yourself. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's all in the prompt, isn't it? Careful what
Speaker 1: you play with, be careful what you tell your AI
Speaker 1: or not?
Speaker 3: But no, like, let's think positive. There's a lot of
Speaker 3: cool things that you can do it right, and buying
Speaker 3: tables is one of them. I kind of like to
Speaker 3: think of more of what do you spend most of
Speaker 3: your time playing around to try and find thinking.
Speaker 2: About thinking up good test for a web page. It's
Speaker 2: not a trivial problem exactly.
Speaker 3: Really, it is you don't know what to test, you
Speaker 3: don't know where to start.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just getting that list of what should I test on.
Speaker 3: This page and you can do it. I did a
Speaker 3: couple of demos and you can do like just turn
Speaker 3: around and say, hey, go to this website and give
Speaker 3: me a markdown file of those, right, so then you
Speaker 3: now you go to a marked all file would say
Speaker 3: maybe seven tests, right with clear English instructions, and then
Speaker 3: you can decide, right, I'm going to allow use this
Speaker 3: again and again, so you don't have to just go
Speaker 3: and use the MCP to do everything. Now done, you
Speaker 3: can separate it out how then, right, these are now
Speaker 3: my marked one files and then you can use I
Speaker 3: don't know, you can create you can do you know,
Speaker 3: there's a get up MCP, So you get the get
Speaker 3: up MCP to create an issue for it, sure, and
Speaker 3: then continue to create the test and then the get
Speaker 3: up MCP will create the test after the play right
Speaker 3: MCP has done it, and you can just MCP all
Speaker 3: day it's.
Speaker 1: It's clear that MCP is the future and it is
Speaker 1: the glue. It is going to be the soap and
Speaker 1: or the JSON or the rest. Like it's going to
Speaker 1: become the default protocol of AI agents talking to each other.
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm very excited about this, and I only
Speaker 1: learned this today.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well a lot of people have only learned it today,
Speaker 3: and I think people feel like they're behind and it's
Speaker 3: actually not. It's just so new and it's so new,
Speaker 3: but everyone's talking about mcps and it is just very cool.
Speaker 1: But the anthropic blog post is from.
Speaker 3: November exactly, and that's the first.
Speaker 2: I don't even know they'd implement at that point. It's
Speaker 2: just that is the blog post.
Speaker 1: Yes, so it's clear that with playwright testing with the
Speaker 1: MCP is the obvious choice. Because who likes to write tests?
Speaker 3: Nobody, as much as we want them all, do you.
Speaker 3: I like to press the green button and see it
Speaker 3: running and it's playing.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: I don't mind writing tests, but there's too much to
Speaker 3: do that. I want to actually do more creative stuff,
Speaker 3: so I want my app to work. I know we're
Speaker 3: all vibe coding, right.
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I'm not vibe coding.
Speaker 3: Oh Carl, you're missing out. No, no, no, you're missing out.
Speaker 3: It's so much fun. So you're just vibe coding away
Speaker 3: and you're like, yeah, that looks good, looks.
Speaker 1: I can't let this go. Vibe coding is a pejorative.
Speaker 1: That's that's like when some of you doesn't know what
Speaker 1: you're doing, talks to an AI. No, no, no, Now,
Speaker 1: I use AI to help me write things.
Speaker 3: Maybe your vibe coding and you don't know it.
Speaker 1: Well, maybe our definition of vibe coding is different.
Speaker 3: I'm just a fun person. I like the vibes. So
Speaker 3: I'm vibe coding along and I'm like, you know, I'm
Speaker 3: doing stuff faster and I'm getting the agent to kind
Speaker 3: of do it, and I'm going with the vibe. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: this looks good. Yeah, keep going, keep going, keep going. Now,
Speaker 3: got this application. But I really have not written the
Speaker 3: majority of the code, and that is their new reality.
Speaker 3: A lot of people out there are not writing all
Speaker 3: the code themselves. Therefore, can they trust the code that
Speaker 3: they've written that they haven't even written? And that's where
Speaker 3: testing is really.
Speaker 2: Was just talking about this idea of do an experiment
Speaker 2: where you write them. You write a prompt for code
Speaker 2: and don't check the code, just run it and keep
Speaker 2: iterating and asking more questions so you get to a place.
Speaker 2: It's for experimentation. He wasn't aiming it at the world.
Speaker 2: He was aiming at developers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was aiming it at a way to
Speaker 1: experiment with a new tool or a new environment and
Speaker 1: a new idea. But it has become a pejorative to
Speaker 1: about well, people who don't know what they're doing. People
Speaker 1: indevitably abuse it. Yeah, right, but how many times over
Speaker 1: the decades has your prototype been shipped? Well, you're asking me, this.
Speaker 2: Is what I'm saying, like, and what are you doing
Speaker 2: when you're doing vibe coding? But you're playing with prototype.
Speaker 2: Prototypes never shipped, but certainly they went on to become
Speaker 2: reading implications. And thereon lies this alien point, which is
Speaker 2: because it's a relatively painless, like afternoon experiment, you don't
Speaker 2: mind chucking it out either, but it changes your thinking.
Speaker 2: You now have seen some ideas and seen them things,
Speaker 2: and you might come at it again from a different angle.
Speaker 2: So I just wish it hadn't been soiled, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And we need a better term car party worked really
Speaker 2: hard to make this idea come true. Like he tried
Speaker 2: a few different names he's I think at one point
Speaker 2: he was talking about I'm coding in English like, but
Speaker 2: it was vibe coding was the one that memed up
Speaker 2: and took off.
Speaker 1: Yeah sounds cool, So it does, but it's been soiled.
Speaker 1: Well I think if it's abuse, it's.
Speaker 3: Not going to go away. No, all right, stop vibing if.
Speaker 1: You say so, Debbie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but just don't do exactly what he said they
Speaker 2: the responsibility element still exists.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, And with that, we're going to take
Speaker 1: a little break and we'll be back after these very
Speaker 1: important messages don't go away. Did you know that you
Speaker 1: can work with AWS directly from your ide AWS provides
Speaker 1: toolkits for visual Studio, visual Studio code, and jet Brains
Speaker 1: rider Learn more at AWS dot Amazon dot com, slash net,
Speaker 1: slash tools. And we're back. It's Dot in a Rocks.
Speaker 1: I'm Carl Franklin. That's my friend Richard Campbell, and that's
Speaker 1: our friend w O'Brien, and she's an advocate for Playwright,
Speaker 1: the testing framework for dot Net for web applications, and
Speaker 1: we're talking about how playwright has embraced AI and now
Speaker 1: you can use a MCP. Did you work on the MCP?
Speaker 1: I automated, worked.
Speaker 3: On the actual advocacy for it and ensuring it happened
Speaker 3: in the sense I wanted this. I was pushing them.
Speaker 3: They're like, you know this to be a thing. Yeah,
Speaker 3: because it was so early days. It was like the
Speaker 3: first one I did was the Blender one. I played
Speaker 3: around the Blender MCP and I just I had made
Speaker 3: a leprechaun at a Blend.
Speaker 1: This is not cliche at all to me. I can't imagine, Like,
Speaker 1: what do.
Speaker 3: You mean thinking I needed to go back to the
Speaker 3: team and prove that I did something so nobody else.
Speaker 1: Is going to do. You did an MCP for Blender.
Speaker 1: Does that mean you have mcps? Are there mcps for
Speaker 1: say CSS out there in general? No?
Speaker 3: No, no, But for a Blenders a tool, and I
Speaker 3: don't know how to use the tool. I don't know
Speaker 3: how to use Blender, but I was able to. I
Speaker 3: was able to blend a leprechorn together by using the MCP,
Speaker 3: and that's the power of the MCP. But you don't
Speaker 3: have to have the knowledge to be able to use things.
Speaker 3: So then I played around with a load of stuff
Speaker 3: and you know, brought that back to the team and
Speaker 3: kind of said, hey, guys, I don't know how.
Speaker 1: To use this tool, but I was able to get
Speaker 1: this tool to do this white.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't we have a Playwright one?
Speaker 2: Back to you know, you put on your product, manage
Speaker 2: your hat, and it's like, I want more people to
Speaker 2: use my product. Why wouldn't I make it easier for
Speaker 2: more people to use my product?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Well, also there were other third party mcps by Playwright
Speaker 3: wow right, which we're doing really good stuff, and I
Speaker 3: was like pressed by what they had done, and why
Speaker 3: do we have an official one? Because we can then
Speaker 3: tailor it to what people's needs are. But you know
Speaker 3: a lot of clients were using the third party ones
Speaker 3: and asking us do we not have an official one?
Speaker 3: So all this was like, you know, pressure.
Speaker 1: So how did those third party repo managers feel about
Speaker 1: Microsoft doing an official one?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think because it's open source, we
Speaker 3: were able to build stuff, they were able to learn
Speaker 3: from that, we learned from them.
Speaker 1: I think it's like, you know, the way everybody's great,
Speaker 1: you don't make these things for fun. You make it
Speaker 1: because you're trying to get something done. You just took
Speaker 1: a bunch of work off their play.
Speaker 3: We're improving things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and he probably too accused from them because
Speaker 2: they'd already come.
Speaker 1: Up with something.
Speaker 3: They've done some amazing stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And in the end, it's better for there to be
Speaker 2: one comprehensive one that does every everything that everybody wants.
Speaker 3: I think as well, people want to trust that this
Speaker 3: yes trustworthy.
Speaker 1: You guys aren't planting malware on my machine exactly, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure. I think in general, I think in general,
Speaker 1: Microsoft is kind of late to the agent game, and
Speaker 1: I think that they're finally coming around to it. Why
Speaker 1: they relate probably because you know, things are changing so fast,
Speaker 1: But I really want them to succeed at this. I
Speaker 1: don't think anything within a year is late of anything. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: But they were there as certainly other things popping up
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years, a year and a
Speaker 1: half that you know, people are glombing onto and especially
Speaker 1: people in FVNX. You know they're early adopters, but they're
Speaker 1: they're all in agreement that they want to see Microsoft
Speaker 1: kick this thing right. We want them to be the
Speaker 1: dominant force. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I like how open everything has been so far. Yes,
Speaker 2: you know, arguably except for weights. But for the most
Speaker 2: part the weights that people are protecting don't seem to
Speaker 2: be all that valuable anyway.
Speaker 1: Can you explain what you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when I say weights, well, the values inside
Speaker 2: of the neural net that make it perform the way
Speaker 2: it does. So, you know actor value that they talk
Speaker 2: about CLAW being open source. Sure, the code's open source,
Speaker 2: but the cloud that you're using actually has a training
Speaker 2: set in it, and those sets of values, those weights
Speaker 2: are in theory, that's the asset. Those aren't public, and
Speaker 2: so you don't you're not literally sitting on the set
Speaker 2: of you're sitting on the code where you can do
Speaker 2: your own training set to make a cloud like thing
Speaker 2: which you don't have their training set, and you don't
Speaker 2: have the results of that.
Speaker 1: It's about the training data.
Speaker 2: And one of the ways it was explained to me
Speaker 2: the other day that really amused me is that these ms,
Speaker 2: these neural nets, they are the jpegging of data. They
Speaker 2: are a lossy compression format for a large quantity of data.
Speaker 2: Right cool, you tokenize it, you turn it into a
Speaker 2: set of symbols that you can then compress into a
Speaker 2: model that then you can pull images from. But it's
Speaker 2: a lossy format, so you're trying to lose the things
Speaker 2: that aren't important and hope for the best. But and
Speaker 2: it's opaque, like the only thing you can't do from
Speaker 2: a JPEG is get the original image. The loss is
Speaker 2: the law us unlike FLACK, which is an audio format,
Speaker 2: and if you want a flack of the Internet, use
Speaker 2: the Internet or ZIP is a better example, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: a non lossy formula on this. So I mean, we're
Speaker 2: playing in this space where we have this language model
Speaker 2: and now we're figuring. You know, in some ways the
Speaker 2: science is over. This is all engineering, and the engineering
Speaker 2: we're doing is how do we couple this to things
Speaker 2: that are valuable. And that's where MCP just emerges and
Speaker 2: grabs on so quickly. You know what it reminds me
Speaker 2: of typescript, Yeah, because when typescript templates like typescript was
Speaker 2: an interesting idea until everybody made a template for everything
Speaker 2: for it, right, And what you're seeing with MCPS is
Speaker 2: same effect that all of a sudden, all of these
Speaker 2: tools that are especially part time tools, like tools you
Speaker 2: don't use all the time, You're never going to be
Speaker 2: good at that. Suddenly you gave them a prompt interface
Speaker 2: and it makes it a lot easier to do those.
Speaker 1: So how long has the Playwright MCP been available? Minutes?
Speaker 3: No months? Which is an entirety in AI. I think
Speaker 3: we were about January February when we released it and
Speaker 3: that time.
Speaker 1: Have you seen people using it for? Interesting ideas? Can
Speaker 1: you give us some of those things that people used
Speaker 1: it for?
Speaker 3: No, I don't think I'm looking on I'm looking on
Speaker 3: tables when I use it. No, obviously we do. We
Speaker 3: have a lot of people using and for testing, especially
Speaker 3: inside Microsoft. That's what it should be for, and that's
Speaker 3: what should be for, and there are other people using
Speaker 3: it for other things. There are many things you can
Speaker 3: use it for. But yeah, it's a good question. I'd
Speaker 3: love to hear from. We are the number one playwright
Speaker 3: or the number one MCP server. So, no kidding, It
Speaker 3: is insane because of the capabilities it can do. And
Speaker 3: it's not just it's not just about testing, it's about
Speaker 3: browser automation.
Speaker 1: MCP to the Web. What could be better? Yeah? Yeah, really,
Speaker 1: you've got ten thousand and stars already, ten thousand stars.
Speaker 1: Heypesky website doesn't have an MPI and API. Don't worry,
Speaker 1: don't worry.
Speaker 3: We've got it cover and we don't even have a
Speaker 3: documentation page website. We have literally just to get up thirty.
Speaker 3: It's crazy.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's great, It's madness, it's awesome.
Speaker 3: I put a video out on Thursday and has twenty
Speaker 3: eight kve yews.
Speaker 1: That holy crap.
Speaker 2: No, no, it's this is a very very powerful one
Speaker 2: and a bunch of people know it like they've figured
Speaker 2: it out.
Speaker 3: What I'm wondering is, you know, you probably heard the
Speaker 3: keynote from Satya and we've got Windows as an MVP. Yes,
Speaker 3: how could we leverage playwright into the Windows MCP?
Speaker 1: Okay, this show's the first check in is March fifteenth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. This is two months old?
Speaker 3: Is that all I told you? Months?
Speaker 1: Two months? All right? So here's the thing. Ten thousand stars,
Speaker 1: two months.
Speaker 3: I think we got the first five k in like
Speaker 3: three days or something. Literally, yeah, I literally slept and
Speaker 3: then I wake up and it was like another two
Speaker 3: k stars. It was insane.
Speaker 1: Is this going to be the new phone app? In
Speaker 1: other words, is MCP is going to be Starbucks going
Speaker 1: to have a Starbucks MCP where you can just to
Speaker 1: order a coffee. To order a coffee, it's McDonald It's
Speaker 1: going to have a McDonald's instead of going to go
Speaker 1: to the drive through? Are using the mobile app? Are
Speaker 1: they going to say, are using the MCP.
Speaker 2: I don't think they're going to ask. I think what's
Speaker 2: going to happen is you're going to be able to
Speaker 2: You're going to ask you a perplexity from your phone
Speaker 2: to order from Starbucks, and it's going to tap the
Speaker 2: m CP. Get here's a wonderful.
Speaker 1: Thing about Starbucks. You go up, they say may I help,
Speaker 1: and you say yes, I want X, and they give
Speaker 1: it to you as opposed to you drive it to Starbucks.
Speaker 2: Go, my name is Carl. Here's your bag. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: already done, but I don't want it already done. I
Speaker 2: want it done fresh.
Speaker 1: While I wait, No, it was done. Adget I'm the
Speaker 1: I'm the the Luddite tear and we've done fresh. On
Speaker 1: your way there. Richard's the guy who wants Wi Fi
Speaker 1: in your refrigerator because he wants your refrigerator to phone
Speaker 1: the grocery store in order milk.
Speaker 3: I want, I want that done too.
Speaker 1: I think. I think that's what And the answer is
Speaker 1: the ultrasonic sensor in the cape down into the bottle
Speaker 1: that much milk is licked and break. That's how it works.
Speaker 1: It's really brilliant. You know what's awesome going to the
Speaker 1: grocery store with a list and shopping. I have seeing
Speaker 1: what's fresh. I have stuff to do, but I have
Speaker 1: to be clear shopping.
Speaker 3: Try shopping shopping trolley.
Speaker 1: Twins not a thing, all right. I want things to
Speaker 1: be easy.
Speaker 3: I want things to be fast.
Speaker 1: Why, by the way, I'm not a lute I am.
Speaker 1: I am like very technological. If you understand, if you
Speaker 1: listen to Dot it Rocks, you know I do so
Speaker 1: much with technologist day. You're just trying to be a contrary.
Speaker 1: I am trying to be a contrary. It isn't working,
Speaker 1: but you're trying. Okay.
Speaker 2: My my family in New Zealand owns a dairy farm.
Speaker 2: So I was just down there my cousin and we
Speaker 2: had to go shopping, yes, and we had and we
Speaker 2: had to buy milk. Oh no, And I'm like, I
Speaker 2: find it hilarious that you're buying milk. She goes, Oh,
Speaker 2: you don't even know the half of it. We're in
Speaker 2: the one half of one percent of the best milk
Speaker 2: produced in New Zealand, and my milk is in this
Speaker 2: bottle somewhere, mixed in with everybody else's back because I
Speaker 2: can't buy my milk. Listen to the big country by
Speaker 2: talking heads. It's like on the plane and he's looking down,
Speaker 2: he's look at that kitchen and all that food. They
Speaker 2: go to the grocery store and they put it in
Speaker 2: their car trunks and they bring it back home, bring
Speaker 2: it to the point.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's crazy, It is crazy, but you
Speaker 1: know that's what happens, all right.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean with the interesting truth about the playwright.
Speaker 2: MCP is not just I can do better testing on
Speaker 2: my website with less effort, without a doubt, but also
Speaker 2: this is a remarkable tool for fetching information off the web. Yes,
Speaker 2: full stop web scraping with AI. Yeah, except you're not
Speaker 2: even thinking about scrape anymore. You're just getting information exactly.
Speaker 3: I think webscraping sounds makes it sound is a derogatory. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's about giving the LLM the power to open a
Speaker 3: browser and do whatever you need to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and move from there, and that play right, but
Speaker 2: then save.
Speaker 3: It in its memory and then do something with whatever
Speaker 3: that is, be it read a buck to you or
Speaker 3: create a test for it.
Speaker 1: So so you can tell chat gpt, you know, you
Speaker 1: can ask it to you know. What is the is
Speaker 1: when I ask chat ept about a problem that I'm
Speaker 1: having and it says, well, I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: or here's something that doesn't work. I say, is anybody
Speaker 1: else on the internet having this problem? This is a
Speaker 1: great prompt for chat ChiPT and it will go search
Speaker 1: and sometimes it will find yes. On stack overflow, I
Speaker 1: found this. This particular user said do this. This particular
Speaker 1: user said do that. You wouldn't necessarily have to do
Speaker 1: that anymore. Like, is chat gpt using something like that
Speaker 1: to scrape websites? Using Google searches and then looking at
Speaker 1: the websites? And it's yeah, of course it's different. It
Speaker 1: doesn't have play right.
Speaker 3: It's not opening the browser.
Speaker 1: It's using an HDP client kind of thing. Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I just like that pattern of what tests should be
Speaker 2: written for this web page? Why don't you write those
Speaker 2: tests for me?
Speaker 1: Yes, it's great.
Speaker 3: Continue to keep going, keep going.
Speaker 1: It's like, why are you waiting? Keep going.
Speaker 3: It's very powerful. We're only in the early days. Like
Speaker 3: literally you mons, I know, it's so cool and there's
Speaker 3: so much more, and that we have some really cool
Speaker 3: ideas that we want to try and work with to
Speaker 3: improve the whole testing scenario in the MCP world. Improve it,
Speaker 3: make it better, give it access to more things. What
Speaker 3: can we what else can we let it have?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you hit on the point of now you
Speaker 2: plug the GitHub MCP into this as well, and so
Speaker 2: now you're pushing issues for tests to fail, right, instead
Speaker 2: of fatting around with anything else. Just to automate that
Speaker 2: whole problem, that entire workflow.
Speaker 3: Just talk to the LM, the whole timelilet this.
Speaker 2: Feed that engine over there, because you know the other
Speaker 2: remember when get hubs you sort of claim to fame
Speaker 2: its the scriptor was social coding, right, it was the
Speaker 2: social media for coding.
Speaker 1: This flow of.
Speaker 2: Creating issues and then resulting in pull requests and so
Speaker 2: forth is about a documentation chain of how an app evolved.
Speaker 2: The fact that we're going to insert these tools into
Speaker 2: the process, they should contribute the documentation.
Speaker 1: They write better.
Speaker 3: Documentation, and we do anyway better English than my house.
Speaker 2: Right and thorough the number of times now that I've
Speaker 2: turned to get hub Copilot after tinkering with some co
Speaker 2: for a while and said, what have I changed? And
Speaker 2: it's batback stuff I've completely forgotten about already. It's like,
Speaker 2: here are all the changes you did, so, I mean
Speaker 2: it just speaks to all of those you know, those
Speaker 2: things singing together means we have a far better picture
Speaker 2: of how software can be evolved and and different tools
Speaker 2: to evolve it. Because of course this show and we've
Speaker 2: now done podcasts leading into our conversation about this agenic
Speaker 2: AI role helping us write code.
Speaker 3: It's further reality. Yeah, it's not even the future, it's yeah,
Speaker 3: it's reality.
Speaker 1: Right, it's right now, right now. Yeah. I guess your
Speaker 1: next question is like, how would you make this web
Speaker 1: page better? How would you make it faster? I gotta
Speaker 1: tell you something I don't know about you, Richard, but
Speaker 1: I'm getting.
Speaker 3: Vibes you see, you see your vibe coding already.
Speaker 1: I'm getting vibes like when we did a show with
Speaker 1: Miguel da Casa after Microsoft bought them about Zamoran, about Zamorin,
Speaker 1: and you realize the future and how it was going
Speaker 1: to change, and it turned into done at Core. Right,
Speaker 1: Core was already well underway. Bye, But I mean it really,
Speaker 1: I mean they got it. They got it really rolling
Speaker 1: you think about we signed to Miguel in twenty eleven, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: which is when Andrews had left to see sh our
Speaker 1: team was going to typescript.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like we were worried about about C sharp,
Speaker 2: we were. We didn't know what was typescript. We just
Speaker 2: knew he left and suddenly the that Miguel came and
Speaker 2: talked to us. And I think I said on the
Speaker 2: show at that time, I think the keeper of C
Speaker 2: sharp doesn't work for Microsoft. It's Miguel dia Cap absolutely,
Speaker 2: because he was pretting C sharp into iPhone and Android,
Speaker 2: which was craziness, right, and that completely I think Miguelda
Speaker 2: Causes saved. Yeah, I wonder if that's true. I think
Speaker 2: it was gonna be saved anyway, but he certainly proved
Speaker 2: it had more potential than.
Speaker 1: Anybody had thought of yeah or believed it. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: without his work on Mono and everything, it would have
Speaker 1: taken a lot longer to dot necor what it is today.
Speaker 1: So I'm getting the same vibe right now with you, Debbie,
Speaker 1: with playwright.
Speaker 3: You all the world.
Speaker 1: You are the new media because MCP and MCP. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: but an AI interface to the web generally is full stop,
Speaker 1: full stop the future. I'm I mean, you can have
Speaker 1: an MCP to GitHub into Azure and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: and that's all great for your resources, but for the
Speaker 1: web click type the bit of stuff on the web.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've noticed, there's some stuff. There's
Speaker 1: some stuff. I think some of it's horrible. Some of
Speaker 1: it is horrible. You should not click Google there if
Speaker 1: you get a link in an email that says, hey
Speaker 1: click this, don't click it, don't do that, don't do that.
Speaker 1: But I think this is one of those times right
Speaker 1: now today where we will look back and I think
Speaker 1: we're probably going to be doing this in twenty years.
Speaker 1: Oh good lord, I think so. I think, all right,
Speaker 1: ten years from now, we're going.
Speaker 2: To years you know what, two years that we're talking
Speaker 2: about show three thousands, right, ten years from now, we're
Speaker 2: going to look back and see.
Speaker 1: Remember that show we did with w O'Brian on playwright
Speaker 1: that changed the world. I'm literally thinking that this is
Speaker 1: that moment.
Speaker 3: I always want to change the world.
Speaker 2: Wall blame you, Yeah, well, it's all your fault. Supposed
Speaker 2: to be a nice little show.
Speaker 1: What have you done? Look, we've all been around for
Speaker 1: a long time. We can recognize big change when we
Speaker 1: see it. And this is big.
Speaker 3: Now, this is big.
Speaker 2: You're really running out of excuses not to write tests,
Speaker 2: really really running out of it.
Speaker 1: Yes, the test.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're literally saying like, we've got no time, we've
Speaker 3: got no money, we've.
Speaker 2: Got no this that's okay, this is free. And all
Speaker 2: you can do is write a prompt and then say yes.
Speaker 3: And you can write a reusable prompt that you can
Speaker 3: save into your get a prompts folder. That's right, that
Speaker 3: therefore you and after the work once.
Speaker 1: Prompt libraries, yeah, Hunter told me about this at lunch.
Speaker 1: Prompt libraries, like you have code libraries. Now there's prompt libraries.
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously, right, a well crafted prompt that will really
Speaker 2: have that will walk through all the steps of writing
Speaker 2: out an entire test plan.
Speaker 1: For our new website. Forget about substacks, subscribe to my
Speaker 1: prompt library, right, anything else you want to talk about
Speaker 1: before we end this world changing?
Speaker 2: Everything's done. Now remember your life before.
Speaker 3: No, it's all mtps, I would say, I would say,
Speaker 3: still people are still testing, and that's also fine that
Speaker 3: this is not taking over.
Speaker 2: Oh no, this show is called changing testing with play
Speaker 2: right MCP Okay, that's what this is called.
Speaker 3: Okay, But you can still write test if you want to.
Speaker 1: You can write that never went away. But I'm what
Speaker 1: I'm doing is taking weeks not to write test exactly.
Speaker 3: So still write your test still, you know, when you're developing.
Speaker 3: But if you have a website out there, you're a URL.
Speaker 3: You just want help. You don't have an idea what
Speaker 3: a test. Let the AI do it for you.
Speaker 2: Let it guide you down the path. I mean, in
Speaker 2: the end, you're still going to agree with what it did.
Speaker 1: But it's got good ideas, definitely good ideas.
Speaker 2: Which is mostly just scraped from the internet.
Speaker 3: Anyway, right exactly someone else has done not.
Speaker 2: Thinking any originally. But you're basically you've now found a
Speaker 2: mechanism to tap the best thinking and testing to give
Speaker 2: you ideas on how to test your site thoroughly.
Speaker 3: But it's a little bit different because you were asking
Speaker 3: it to give ideas based on someone else's ideas. This
Speaker 3: is actually the MDP going to the website and saying,
Speaker 3: oh look, I see a button here. I'm going to
Speaker 3: click it, right. So it's kind of like what would
Speaker 3: a user do when it first sees a website. It
Speaker 3: starts picking buttons, and that's what this is doing. It
Speaker 3: starts clicking buttons and then seeing, Oh I see this
Speaker 3: is a filter existance. Oh I see this is this
Speaker 3: because it has access to that page not shut.
Speaker 1: So, Debbie, how long have you been in town?
Speaker 3: Two days?
Speaker 1: Maybe? Have you been to the Elephant in Castle? Irish pub?
Speaker 1: A British pub? No, it's good if you're if you're
Speaker 1: hankering for a pub, good goods and chips.
Speaker 2: Yeah you don't, hankers are here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you brought the fam. Yeah, like cold and wet.
Speaker 3: It's my garden, that's true. How old are they seventeen months?
Speaker 1: Oh? My goods, they're not eating fish and chips yet.
Speaker 3: Oh they're reading everything.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well give them some mushy peas. He'll be happy. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: it's fantastic. All right, Well, this is a life changing
Speaker 1: moment for me and I hope I hope everybody else too.
Speaker 2: So if you're excited because cool things are happening.
Speaker 1: We are very excited, and we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 1: Dear listener. Dot net rocks. Dot net rocks is brought
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Speaker 1: and access to the full archives going back to show
Speaker 1: number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And
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Speaker 1: in business. Now go write some code. See you next time.
Speaker 1: You got Javans Then of Texas a reading h