WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:03.520 Well, just like the tech issues that we recently had 2 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:07.360 where our entire systems shorted. Sorry about that. Sometimes confusion 3 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:10.240 comes into our lives. We often don't understand the reason 4 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:11.720 why we live. We don't as to the purpose of 5 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:14.679 our existence, and we're trying to find out exactly what 6 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:17.320 it is we're supposed to be doing here. Now, many 7 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.760 Americans have decided that, you know, the way that we 8 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:21.600 find out who God is and what our purpose is 9 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:24.679 is through Christianity. But when you approach Christianity, it's not 10 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:27.239 as simple as you think. Sometimes you look around you 11 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:32.520 as Protestants, there's in there, there's Evangelicals, there's the mainline denominations. 12 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:36.039 Then you go out and then there's Orthodox, there's Catholic. 13 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:38.159 But if you notice today with the gay flags in 14 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:41.200 front of churches and the pastrixes, the female pastors, and 15 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:44.119 the weird ideology, a lot of young people are finding 16 00:00:44.119 --> 00:00:46.880 out that the modern church perhaps may not be the 17 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:51.799 best version of Christ's Holy Church. In fact, maybe just 18 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:53.840 maybe the people of the past knew a little more 19 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:56.640 than we did. When looking back in history myself, I 20 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.679 found there's two churches. There's the Catholic Church, we'll call 21 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.240 it in General and the Orthodox Church. They both claim 22 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:05.480 to be the true church. One follows the papacy, it 23 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:07.719 looks like the other one doesn't. And yet at the 24 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:10.159 same time, when you ask either of them, really, where 25 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:11.719 should I go to church? They'll say, well, most of 26 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.400 them you should go to Catholic, but you know you 27 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:16.200 can go to Orthodox if it has an Orthodox to 28 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:18.519 say you can, but Catholic, but you should go to Orthodox. 29 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.200 So why do we have both? Then? Which one is true? 30 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:23.400 Which one is the way to be a part of 31 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.680 Christ's eternal body, to be a part of the living, 32 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:30.480 breathing unit of Christ. Joining me today to discuss the 33 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.319 true Church, whether it's Orthodox or Catholicism. We are talking 34 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:37.480 to experts in their field. Jaydyer. He's a podcast host, 35 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:40.239 author of many books, an avid reader. Jay Dyer, welcome 36 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:41.840 back to the show. Let us know who you are. 37 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:44.079 For those that are just joining for the first time. 38 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:45.439 You want to explain a little bit about what it 39 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:47.879 means to be an Orthodox or what that even you 40 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:50.319 know defines itself as in a little bit about where 41 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:51.480 people can find your podcast. 42 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:56.000 Yeah, Jay Dyer, I have been Orthodox since about twenty seventeen, 43 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.000 and prior to that was Roman Catholic from many years, 44 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:02.400 pretty dedicated Latin mass go or was raised Protestant in 45 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:08.759 the Reformed Baptist and Reform tradition. And yeah, I would 46 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:11.759 say that what Orthodox Christianity is is we believe it 47 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:15.919 is the Church of the first millennium, still preserved and 48 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:21.960 still holding to those synodal traditions that are essentially found 49 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:26.479 within any of the canonical Orthodox churches throughout the world. 50 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:30.000 So we think it is the church that Christ established. 51 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:32.919 We think that it doesn't change. There might be political 52 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:36.360 geopolitical issues that happened, but the fundamental constitution and beliefs 53 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:38.639 of the Church do not change. And so we take 54 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.159 truth to be the most important category over things like 55 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:45.400 numbers and things like that. And me personally, you can 56 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.319 find me at Jays Analysis dot com and a fourth 57 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:50.039 hour host of the Alex Jones Show for the last 58 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:51.919 five or six years, and I write for the Sam 59 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:52.439 Hid Show. 60 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:55.360 Yeah, jack of all trades and also an incredible guy 61 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.120 behind the scenes. He's the real deal, by the way. 62 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:00.479 And joining me to represent Catholicism, we'll find out a 63 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:03.960 lot about it. Timothy Gordon's also podcast host, pretty influential 64 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:05.120 in this field and all around. 65 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:10.280 I'd say, you consider yourself a theologian. Correct? Awesome, you 66 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:13.719 hear me? Yeah, there we go for a second. All right, 67 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:18.759 I'm a tomistic philosopher, trained trained graduate philosophy, but but 68 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:22.560 I taught theology for many, many years. And yeah, the 69 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:28.280 Roman Catholic Church is the center piece of of what 70 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:32.479 I do. Uh, physics, metaphysics, ethics, politics, That's what my 71 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.879 podcast is on. Rules for Introgrades is the name, and 72 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:41.800 I try to clarify. I try to clarify the issues 73 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:45.199 because the Catholic Church receives so much attention. There's so 74 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.360 much mis and disinformation out there. A lot of it's 75 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:52.639 genuinely confusing to people, and it's a big tent. We 76 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:56.120 have orthodoxy that always has to be separated from the 77 00:03:56.199 --> 00:04:02.919 chaef of heterodoxy, and there's been some confusion. Some of 78 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:06.680 it is legitimate confusion, and some of it is confusion 79 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:10.439 that has been stoked by media and opponents of the church. 80 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:12.840 But a lot of it's been legitimate in the last 81 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:16.560 sixty years. So I try to be a voice of clarity, 82 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.560 a lay voice of clarity, and that's what I do 83 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:23.959 on my podcast, The Rules for Introgrades. Timothy Gordon awesome. 84 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.279 We'll be talking a little bit about their podcast later 85 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:28.079 on and the rules in just a few moments. My 86 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:31.399 name's Elijah Schaeffer and it's approximately seven forty five pm 87 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.000 Eastern time in the United States. We are usually live 88 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.519 right now Monday, Wednesday, Friday at seven pm Eastern time. 89 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:39.319 We usually don't have our production booth blow up in 90 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:41.079 the middle of things. But if you want to know this, 91 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:43.120 we can do what we should always do and we'll 92 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:45.079 just blame the Jews. Now, I'm totally kid, that's not 93 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:47.600 what we're going to do. Thank you guys for joining me. 94 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:49.720 Are going to be reading the super chats periodically throughout, 95 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.839 so you send them in. I see Rachel Wilson's in 96 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:53.920 there for twenty dollars saying to you guys, much love 97 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:55.920 to Tim and Jay, much love to Alive for hosting. 98 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.360 America will become Orthodox, America will become holy? Will it? 99 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:00.839 I go about that and so much more. 100 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:03.519 Here another episode of The Riff Live right now, Let's 101 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:15.480 start the show. 102 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:24.600 Welcome back to the Rift. You can find us at 103 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:25.680 riftv dot com. 104 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:29.199 New articles every single day on culture, politics, and religion. 105 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:31.079 Also us a litt announcement for your joining us for 106 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:32.560 the first time. This is a new network, it just 107 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:34.560 launched a few weeks ago, and this is one of 108 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:36.199 our shows, so we're hammering out some of the details. 109 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:38.839 We have a couple of new shows launching, including Joel Webbin, 110 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.639 who is a Protestant that is coming on and doing 111 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.680 a new show for our network. We're very excited about that. Plus, 112 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.759 Sarah Stock has a new channel. If you don't know, 113 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.120 it's Sarah Stock on YouTube. She's also launching a new program. 114 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:51.720 And we also have a new White House show with 115 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.240 the Gateway Pun and Jordan Conradson. We're launching on September fifteenth, 116 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.639 So God is good. We got our security clearances for 117 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.040 the White House and we're very happy to be here anyway. 118 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.839 Joining us today are my guests Timothy Gordon and Jay Dyer. 119 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.240 They're both infamous, i should say, in their own right, 120 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.319 and have both come on the show previously to discuss 121 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:12.240 what it means to be Orthodox, what it means to 122 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:14.399 be a Catholic, and so if you want to watch 123 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:15.879 those episodes, you can go back. You can type in 124 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:17.360 their names and you can find them. They're very, very 125 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:20.720 very good, very developed individuals and thinkers. Let's go in 126 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:22.480 and let's talk about what we're gonna be doing. So 127 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.279 we're gonna be mainly talk covering three topics today. One 128 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:28.720 topic is going to be whether Christ did or did 129 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:30.680 not establish a visible head of church. We're talking about 130 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.399 apostolic succession in its own way, what really defines the church? 131 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.560 You know, the Orthodox and Catholic disagree on that. Plus 132 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:39.959 topic two, we're gonna be talking about the Holy Spirit 133 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.959 does or does not hypostatically proceed from the Sun, So 134 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:46.000 we're gonna kind of talk about the Trinity, talk about. 135 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:46.680 What's going on there. 136 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.319 This is a very interesting topic, especially for me background 137 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.079 and Protestantism. And number three, we're talking about the Divine 138 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.360 essence is or is not absolutely simple and for the 139 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.839 affirmative position not composed of any parts or potencies. Now, 140 00:06:57.879 --> 00:06:59.639 in the middle of these topics will have a normal 141 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:01.759 struct Sure, there will be an opening statement, there will 142 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:03.959 be a rebuttal, there will be a cross examination and 143 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:04.399 a closing. 144 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:05.680 It's a very formal debate. 145 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:07.639 So if you're not familiar with that style on this channel, 146 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:09.439 we're trying it for the first time today. Because these 147 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:12.639 are academics, they are not retarded like myself. But in 148 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:14.399 the middle of these topics, we will have a little 149 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:16.240 bit of a break, so these will be a little 150 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.120 bit lengthy might want to take out notes, and we 151 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:21.680 will also be asking a few other questions more relevant 152 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.079 to the culture and topics and what their responses are 153 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.600 as the Catholic and the Orthodox church. All right, Jay, 154 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:30.240 we'll start with you with your opening statement. Our topic 155 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:32.920 number one that we are discussing whether Christ did or 156 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.199 did not establish a visible head of church. We're talking 157 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:38.160 I believe the correct phrase apostolic succession. 158 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.519 I know you guys believe in the I know you 159 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.120 guys believe in in uh they believe in in the 160 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:44.879 in the papacy, right, and you don't correct? 161 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:50.279 We agreed on divine divine simplicity or act as purists? 162 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:54.000 First? Okay, out here a right that I have. 163 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:55.519 I have the opposite on my on my, on my, 164 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:58.040 Let's go to that. So you said, uh, we'll start 165 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.639 with the we have as topic three, but we'll we'll 166 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:01.879 go to that one second. 167 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.680 Or you have one second or third? Which one the 168 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.160 visible head of church? It's all over here, so I 169 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:09.279 just have this one. All right, let's go. 170 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:11.720 Let's go to topic we'll change topic three the topic 171 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:13.759 one here. Let's all the divine essence is or is 172 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:17.680 not absolutely simple. Go ahead your opening statement, right. 173 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:22.279 So, if I look at scholastic dictionaries from Roman Catholic texts, 174 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:27.319 we see that for God or for philosopher, Scholastic philosophy 175 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.680 in general, pure act is defined as simple for perfection 176 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.879 without any imperfection. It is free from any potency in 177 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:38.159 the strictest sense. It is therefore unqualified perfection of existence, 178 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:43.639 without any passive or limited potency. And this is from 179 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:48.440 the dictionary Scholastic Philosophy. Aquitta says something very similar, and 180 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.279 as does Etenial Sown the student rehive me the one 181 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:55.240 of the premier tomas of the last century. In defining 182 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.840 who God is, there is this beginning point that comes 183 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:03.559 from Hellenic metaph physics. We would not, as Orthodox, necessarily 184 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.360 agree with every you disagree with every usage of the 185 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.440 word your act. But what we would say is that 186 00:09:10.519 --> 00:09:12.759 when I look at that definition and I compare it 187 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:14.960 to the teaching of say same Maximus the Confessor in 188 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:17.440 his famous two inter chapters, he begins to work by 189 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:21.679 saying that God is not in himself as in as 190 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:23.720 far as it is possible for us to know any 191 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:26.639 kind of first principle. Nor is he in an intermediate state, 192 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.279 nor is he in an end, nor is he any other concept. 193 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.679 For he is indefinite, immobile, and infinite, since he is 194 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:38.600 infinitely beyond any substance, any potentiality, and any actuality. So 195 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:41.200 notice there he is not pure act in himself. He 196 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:44.120 is not actuality in himself. He goes on to say 197 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.480 in section four, God is not therefore a potentiality, nor 198 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:50.000 is he a first principle, nor is he an actuality, nor. 199 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:51.159 Is he a first cause. 200 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:55.039 And he's citing from Aristoitilian categories and definitions. 201 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:58.039 There he goes on to say, though, that in another sense, 202 00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:58.639 we can. 203 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.679 Call God these things. And the reason for this is 204 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.919 that for Orthodoxeology there's two very crucial key distinctions, or 205 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.720 a name, the ways that we that we name God 206 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:10.639 that are distinct. We name God first in terms of 207 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:14.679 the intraternitarian life, or God in himself, and in that 208 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:18.159 way we do not positively predicate of the divine essence. 209 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:20.399 So even though tim will agree with me that there 210 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.720 is a via negativa, Orthodoxeology has a different conception of 211 00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:26.080 what apathetic theology is so when we speak of the 212 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:29.039 divine essence, we do not speak of it as identical 213 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:34.360 to anything much less identical to pure act, first act act. 214 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:35.360 As purists, et cetera. 215 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:41.240 The divine essence is unknowable, imparticipable, unapproachable, and it is therefore, 216 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:43.159 strictly speaking apathetic. 217 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:44.919 How do we know God? Then? 218 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:47.840 If God is apapatic in this sense, well he's not 219 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:51.679 only essence. God is also person and the Saint John 220 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.639 Damascus says multiple times in on the Orthodox Faith, the 221 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.320 key to all heresies is to confuse the distinction between 222 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:02.080 nature and person. The Orthodox Church, that distinction is as 223 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.720 quote real or as strong as the distinction between the 224 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.480 persons themselves. So while in Tim's philosophy he would agree 225 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:12.840 agree that the Father and the Son are really distinct, 226 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.679 that real distinction is somehow not applicable to anything else 227 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:20.559 in the triad, be it God's attributes, operations, or the 228 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.080 distinction between nature and person itself, which is conceived of 229 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.879 as only mental or volitional intmistic philosophy. And I would 230 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:29.480 argue that in Roman Catholic theology that holds as well, 231 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:33.519 because the fourth latter in council accepts the Peter Lombard 232 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:36.360 definition of what simplicity is known as identity thesis. This 233 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.039 is denzing or four thirty two that person and essence 234 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.399 are essentially identical, but they're only mentally or rationally distinct. 235 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:47.200 Thus God is his essence. So notice for them, God 236 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.159 is first and foremost essence. But the Orthodox position is 237 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.840 very different. And Maximus goes on to describe the way 238 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:57.159 that we do speak of God in positive catavatic categories, 239 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:00.559 and that is because the energies are positive and known 240 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:02.600 to us. Those energies are his operations. 241 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:03.720 Where does this come from? 242 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:07.440 Is this something that the medieval Byzantines made up? They 243 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.080 just came up with this idea that energies are these 244 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:12.399 things that God has that are other than him, and 245 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:15.159 they are these other deities, these polytheistic parts of God. 246 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.039 Absolutely not. In fact, we would argue that the only 247 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.840 way to have divine simplicity consistently is to adhere to 248 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.919 the divine simplicity of God. Yes, but also that his 249 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.200 operations are really there and really different from him. How 250 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:33.519 do I know that? The Coppadition's made a plastic analogy 251 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:35.720 for how this is the case by looking at the 252 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.600 difference between a man is nature and the work of 253 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.600 nature and the product of nature. Allow me to quote 254 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:47.480 Saint John Damascus briefly here for that specific distinction. John 255 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:52.559 Damascus says that observe that energy, capacity of energy, and 256 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:55.399 product of energy and the agent of the energy are 257 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:58.120 all different. Or the Orthodox Church we call these things 258 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.519 the difference between nature, person will, essence and operation or 259 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.240 energy and the effect of that energy. Energy is the 260 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:08.279 efficient and essential activity of the nature. So notice that's 261 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:11.679 the first statement from John Damascus. The same statement is 262 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:17.120 made by Saint Gregory. Excuse me, Saint Maximus in his 263 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.639 at the Lassios sixty three he says that God's supernatural 264 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.879 energy is the identical energy that the Father of the 265 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:28.440 Son and the Spirit possess. That also the saints are 266 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:32.440 deified by Saint Gregora Nissa says, and against Unumias two, 267 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.840 the common nature is identified by common energy. Saint Grege 268 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.440 Nissa says again, the essential invisible God becomes visible by 269 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.240 his energies. He is not visible in his essence, but 270 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.360 in some of his operations, And to quote Saint Cyril 271 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.480 of Alexandria, things with the same energy are acknowledged to 272 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.759 be of the same essence. So energy proceeds from essence 273 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:57.360 and is the proper signifier in work or operation of 274 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.200 that nature or essence. Now, natures don't operate. Eight persons 275 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.960 with nature's operate. And this is why for John Damascus 276 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:08.440 in Book three, section fifteen, there are two wills, two energies, 277 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.960 but one divine hypostasis working in and through those two wills, 278 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.799 and those two energies now to shift out of the 279 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.080 philosophical definitions and statements that we have. And I would 280 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.600 add that definition, by the way, is accepted at the 281 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.519 six Ecumenical Council, where the Confession of Saint Sophronius, pulling 282 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:27.600 from the explicit teachings of Saint Maximus the Confessor on 283 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.279 essence and energy, two wills, two operations, and by the way, 284 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.600 many energies, to cite John Damascus in book one, that 285 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.600 is accepted at the six Ecumenical Council as the teaching's 286 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.440 crystological definition. Again it's called the Confession of Saint Sophronius. 287 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:45.159 You can find the Oxford text available on Amazon. Thus, 288 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.159 even in the patristic teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, 289 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.639 three minutes from the early few centuries achieved from the 290 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:55.159 early seventh centuries. In six eighty six to Me sixt 291 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.320 eighty one, at the six Secumenical Council, we have the 292 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:03.759 affirmation of the teaching of Saint Sophronius and Saint Maximus 293 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:07.720 that John of Damascus encapsulates in his later text of 294 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:10.759 on the Orthodox Face, reflecting on the essence synergy sanction, 295 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:13.759 which is seen most clearly in Believe it or not, 296 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:17.879 not triadic speculations, but in Christology. In other words, it 297 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:21.159 is the uncreated energies that Saint Ceerl says, deify us 298 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.919 in this life through feeding. 299 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:24.960 On the flesh. 300 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:27.159 I'm going to be interested to hear how a person 301 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.240 who believes in the real presence, that is the body 302 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:34.039 bloatsole in divinity, president of Christ in the Eucharist, as 303 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.360 the Roe Mecallity Church claims to confess how this is 304 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:39.320 possible given that in the Orthodox conception, it's only possible 305 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.360 given that the uncreated energies, as Saint Ceerl says in 306 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:45.279 the two Letters to exth Census, deify the flesh and 307 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.639 thus make it the thing that we participate in to 308 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.519 be deified. He says in the two Letters to Sixtensus 309 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:52.480 and this is reflected and then teaching the Council of Ephesis, 310 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:55.080 by the way in the anathemas, that we do not 311 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:57.440 eat the flesh and blood of some man, but the 312 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.440 deified flesh of the God Man, made divine, not by 313 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:05.320 the divine essence, but by his uncreated energy and immortality. 314 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.399 So Saint Cyril of Alexandria. 315 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.399 The fourth act, the third Actumenical Council of Ephesis is 316 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:13.360 pretty explicit when we get into the actual teachings of 317 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:17.080 how we participate in divine life. On the other hand, 318 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:20.240 in the Roman Catholic Church, if I read from the 319 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:27.000 teaching of Ludwig ott Louis, God says that them the 320 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:29.679 grace that we receive in the Roman Catholic Church and 321 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.200 theirs and their and their belief sanctifying grace is a created, 322 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.360 supernatural gift, really distinct from God. In other words, the 323 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:39.679 very thing that you are participating in, which by the way, 324 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:43.240 point number one says is a creation. Point number five says, 325 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.919 is a participation in the divine nature. I'm pretty sure 326 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.159 the divine nature isn't a creature. So I don't know 327 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:51.799 how we participate in God. If the thing that we're 328 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:56.399 participating in is a quote quote created gift really different 329 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:02.120 from God again quotes from a famous Roman Catholic agmatic manual. Lastly, 330 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.279 I would say that there are a couple more examples 331 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.799 that I think are very difficult for people who deny 332 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.640 this distinction, particularly when it comes to what are called Theophanes. 333 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.039 The often these are manifestations of God in the Old Testament. 334 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:16.359 I'll give you a few that I think are really problematic. 335 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.799 How much time to have one? You can have it, 336 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:21.759 you can have. Got a couple more. 337 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.400 I got a couple more examples, and then I'll be done. So. 338 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:29.039 In number twelve we read that the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, 339 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.319 and Miriam, come you three to the tabernacle of meeting. 340 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:34.880 And they came out. The Lord came down in the 341 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.839 pillar and in the cloud, and he stood in the 342 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.720 door of the tabernacle and called out to Aaron and Miriam. 343 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.960 Now noticed that we have this day authentic manifestation in 344 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.799 the Old Testament where God comes down and specifically said 345 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:49.920 to stand there. When we go back to the situation 346 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:55.240 in Genesis. In Genesis thirty one, we read that the 347 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:57.599 Angel of the Lord, who identifies himself as the I 348 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.000 am the God who appeared to you at Bethel is 349 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.599 there talking to Jacob. And that same I Am that 350 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:07.119 appears in time and space is also talking to Jacob 351 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:09.279 and calls himself the form of God. This is out 352 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.799 of the subtuision text. The form of God was seen 353 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.200 by Jacob. And then we have another statement that it 354 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.759 is the Im that he wrestles with, because Jesus at 355 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.720 the end of John one says that he is. 356 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:22.240 The gate the doorway. 357 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:25.480 To have the ladder of Jacob and the angels descending 358 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.799 and descending on the Son of Man signifies and shows 359 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:31.599 that he was the one wrestling with Jacob. Jacob wrestled 360 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.440 with an actual form or being in time and space 361 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.480 that manifested in an energetic manifestation, as the Church has 362 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.640 always taught. But after Tomism and after the Middle Ages, 363 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.440 the Roman Cacolic Church moved away from this and decided 364 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:50.559 and said that these manifestations are rather created images, holograms, angels, 365 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.079 et cetera, whatever imagery you want to use, they're not 366 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.200 the uncreated energies of God in time and space. Why well, 367 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.240 because of divine simplicity, it's not possible for God to 368 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.759 be present in time and space in these ways, because 369 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:04.720 God would then undergo change. But I want to remind 370 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:08.039 them as I close in this point, that this theoteny 371 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.920 argument is actually the basis and the predication, the presupposition 372 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:15.359 for the doctrine of the incarnation. It is not the 373 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.640 divine Essence that became incarnate. It is this second person who, 374 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:23.759 according to Philippians too willfully limited himself to step into 375 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:25.839 time and space in a mode of being that the 376 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:28.240 Father and the Son did not enter into. So the 377 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:32.039 reductionist act as purest position will undercut not just the 378 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.680 ofphanies and the real manifestations of the glory of God 379 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:35.279 in time and space. 380 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:36.440 The Leviticus nine says. 381 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.599 This is the glory of God that appeared God's glories 382 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.880 under creature John seventeen. Thus this refutes the Roman Catholic 383 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:43.839 simplicity position. 384 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.319 And just to clarify, so thank you for that. 385 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:49.519 Since you guys do have a bit of a rigid structure, 386 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.279 do you prefer to do an opening statement and then 387 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:52.079 do rebuttals after? 388 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:53.279 Do you want to rebuttle him and then do an 389 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.759 opening statement, I'll do. I'll do opening statement. Okay, let's 390 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:58.960 go ahead. And so representing the Catholic side. 391 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.039 If you're just joining the stream, shout out as well 392 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:04.160 to in the chat crucible, Andrews said, it's a one 393 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:05.559 hundred dollars super chat. We're not going to do weird 394 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:07.480 sound effects for this, will keep it very very serious 395 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:09.279 to the point. But it also said thank you Andrew 396 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:11.279 for that. He said, Andrew Wilson here, thank you very 397 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.359 much for hosting this. And Andrew's Orthodox correct, I think correct. 398 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:17.400 So that's cool that you're tuning. I appreciated. I's all 399 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:20.319 your wife there too. So go ahead, Timothy your opening statement, 400 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:22.039 you have a ten minutes, give or take. Since he 401 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:23.519 took an extra two minutes, will give you two if 402 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:24.920 you need it. You have twelve minutes on the clock. 403 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:31.880 Go ahead. Pure act is the basic expression of God's perfection, 404 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:38.440 all powerfulness, his essayity. That means He's self subsisting, his necessity, 405 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:43.200 his eternality, his simplicity. So God as pure act according 406 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:49.960 to classical theism Western definitions of God, which has included 407 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.759 broadly speaking, it's even included a lot of Orthodox thinkers 408 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.960 Eastern thinkers over the last two thousand years. It is 409 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.640 the most basic expression of who and what God is. 410 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:02.720 So when you think pure act, because this is the 411 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:07.799 term of pure metaphysics, think pure being. By pure being 412 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:12.799 we mean being without any becoming or potency mixed in. 413 00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:17.960 There are no non actualized potencies that are mixed in 414 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.960 with the person of who God is now. Just so 415 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.839 we are clear, Jay told me the last time we 416 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:29.039 debated that mistaking a single aspect of God's reality means, 417 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.000 in the context of Islam, worshiping a false God rather 418 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:36.000 than worshiping the true God. Arrently, I would say, I 419 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:39.440 hope for all of our sakes, Jay's sakes here too, 420 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.000 because he's a friend and he's a good guy, that 421 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:47.680 this isn't true. Because mistaking God as being a composite 422 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:54.920 of act with passive potency is the most fundamental mistake 423 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.599 you can make as to who God is. Passive potency 424 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:01.319 means something else can change you. And we have to 425 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:05.319 talk about passive potency today. The fact that Jay has 426 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:09.400 asserted on multiple occasions that something else can change God 427 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:15.519 through this term passive potency. So there's some basics of 428 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.519 classical theism. One God cannot change. This is in Malachi 429 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:25.799 three six. It's reflected in James one seventeen. God can't change. 430 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.359 This is a basic pillar of classical theism. God cannot 431 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:35.279 be affected by anything else. It's reflected in Acts seventeen 432 00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:39.160 twenty four to twenty five. Thirdly, God cannot fail to 433 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:42.400 be what he is. The principle of necessity only applies 434 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.599 to him in this sense that he is utterly perfect, 435 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.799 and he cannot be anything other than what he is. 436 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:52.079 This is reflected in Matthew five, verse forty eight. Now, 437 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.400 if God were not pure act, and by this we 438 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:59.119 just mean pure being, there are so many equivocations that 439 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.279 are going to be made here on terms I just 440 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:07.240 mean pure being, Thomas, and the Aristotelian lexicon that he's 441 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.400 working out of just means pure being with no becoming possible. 442 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.920 The basic definition between a creator and a creature is 443 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.000 there's only one creator. He's got to be pure being 444 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.480 itself outside the categories of time and space. Anything inside 445 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:25.799 the categories of time and space has to be a mixture, 446 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:29.920 a composite of act and potency, form and matter, substance 447 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:33.319 and accidents. There are seven modes of composition, and anything 448 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.039 inside the categories that was created by God has to 449 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:40.200 be a creature who is a composite of these things. 450 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:44.559 But God has to be immutable, meaning he cannot change. 451 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:49.720 He cannot change because he's outside the categories. He must 452 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:54.319 be eternal. Nicia actually anathematizes anyone who says that he's 453 00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:57.000 anything other than the eternal, meaning there's no change in God, 454 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:00.880 meaning God cannot exist prior to X and after X. 455 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.480 That would that would earn one the anathematizations of Nicea. 456 00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:09.319 He can't be composite. And if if God were mixed 457 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.440 in the way that Jay is saying, act with potency 458 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.200 in any manner, he would be composite. I mean there's 459 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:19.960 a composer behind God, because one would have to be 460 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.200 composed of their parts by some posterior principle, and that 461 00:24:24.279 --> 00:24:26.799 composer itself would be God, not God. So he has 462 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.960 This is why he has to be simple. Passive potency 463 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.599 means that that something else can change God. This always 464 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:37.319 implies temporality, so God would not be perfect. This is 465 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.480 a complete and total rejection of all classical theism. That 466 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.000 doesn't make it good or bad. I'm just stating it 467 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:49.480 from the outset that that classical theism requires God to 468 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.440 be pure act for him to even obtain all the 469 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:57.160 properties that we're talking about. Now. What Jay will say 470 00:24:57.319 --> 00:25:03.319 is that God transcends logical category. If God truly transcended 471 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.400 logical categories for one thing, this would require that we 472 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.200 predicate being unifically, and for a Roman Catholic, we never 473 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:15.160 predicate being unifically. We always predicate being analogically. So that's 474 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.960 not true. Because we predicate being analogically, we can actually 475 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.480 talk about God in one way and one way only. 476 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:25.480 That's what the analogy is. But if it were true 477 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:31.759 that we predicated God unifically and and he transcends logical categories, 478 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:33.480 then there would be no debates. We wouldn't be able 479 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.119 to do what we're doing right now, wouldn't be able 480 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:39.279 to identify God, name God. There'd be no dogma, no councils, 481 00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:43.920 no scripture, anything that's important to Catholics or Orthodox. So 482 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.000 there's an absolute equivocation on this idea of analogical versus 483 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:55.240 unifical predication of being. Now that because there are so 484 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.559 many different terms between the East and the West, I 485 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:02.960 will say this, there is unintentional equivocation, meaning good faith 486 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.759 equivocation between the Eastern thinkers and the Western thinkers on 487 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.319 what pure act is and what it requires, but in 488 00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:15.319 some sense, in the sense of meaning being pure being 489 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:20.200 without becoming. We have affirmations of one sense or another 490 00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:23.640 of pure being by even Eastern thinkers like Gregory of Nissa, 491 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:31.359 Maximus the Confessor, Athanaceous, John Damascene, even Gregory Palamus, though 492 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:36.079 he puts forward a kind of alternative theory, the heartline 493 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:41.000 distinction between God's essence and energies, and more recently scholars 494 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:47.160 like doctor Bradshaw admits that God must be pure act. 495 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.079 Now I'll just run through a few of these, and 496 00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:53.480 against Eunomias two, we have Gregory of Nissa saying, except 497 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.839 for the divine essence, nothing is uncreated, meaning the divine 498 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.640 essence alone is uncreated. This is good because for God 499 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.400 to be God, for there to be a real distinction 500 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.319 outside of the Uziah of God would be to posit 501 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.440 a second God. Gregory of Nissa also says, and again 502 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.200 he's operating on an Eastern equivocal definition, so I'm not 503 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.839 saying that he means exactly what Thomas means, but he 504 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:20.039 means the important part of it, that God is pure being, 505 00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.400 and that if he were any bit of potency passive potence, 506 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:26.640 he would have to be inside the ten categories of existence. 507 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.599 He says, the untouched and formless God is free from 508 00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:33.920 all composition and likewise the only begotten. So this proves 509 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.079 a couple important things at once. That because God is 510 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:40.039 the untouched and formless God, free from all composition, that 511 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:44.240 means any of the seven modes of composition, most importantly potency. 512 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:50.440 Same thing with the Sun. That's Gregory of Nissa. Maximus 513 00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:54.119 the Confessor says God is the active and inexhaustible state 514 00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:58.319 of all actualization. The important aspect of what he's saying 515 00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:01.799 is that he is being. God is pure being, without becoming, 516 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:07.119 no becoming, mixed in, no potency. Maximus also says, for 517 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:09.759 it is not natural to contemplate any change in God. 518 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:12.799 Of course, this has been anathematized right at the beginning 519 00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:15.240 at Nicea to say that there's any change in God, 520 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.839 in whom we cannot conceive of any movement whatsoever. So 521 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.839 there can be no admixture of change in God. And 522 00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:29.079 again this is basically obvious to everyone. Uh Saint Athanasius 523 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:32.440 says God is holy what he is, he means, no potency, 524 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.359 no division. I'm just demonstrating here that there are Eastern 525 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.759 thinkers who are operating out of the basic existential fact 526 00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:44.440 of God as pure act Just think John of Damascus 527 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:48.799 says God is uncreated, immutable, and not composed. So composing 528 00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.279 doesn't just mean act potency. It means any of the 529 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:56.400 other six modes of UH possibly composing God. Now we 530 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:59.160 can reduce this to a syllogism to prove it, since 531 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.559 we're debating. After all, this comes out of Theologia one 532 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.839 nine one basic. First premise, whatever has passive potency can 533 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:12.000 be changed or moved from potentiality to actuality by something else. 534 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:17.079 By definition, this is what passive potency is. Second premise 535 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:21.279 is God can't be changed because we all agree on 536 00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:25.240 that premise, and the conclusion is therefore God has no 537 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.480 passive potency. It's important to note for logic nerds that 538 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.200 this can be propositionalized. You can use symbolic logic to 539 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.880 prove that this is true. I won't go through the 540 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.680 symbolic logic, but it's important that people know this ought 541 00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.519 to be sacricynct for any of us. Whatever has passive 542 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:45.920 potency can be changed or moved by another. We don't 543 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.440 agree that that can be done with God. Since God 544 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.160 can't be changed it's been anathematized at NICEA. We have 545 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:56.119 to say God has no passive potency, and Jay has 546 00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:00.519 said otherwise multiple times recently in the last year eight months. 547 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:06.880 So there's a simple way of explaining this to people 548 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:10.640 the analogy of an automobile, since we're using all these 549 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:16.680 terms composition, pure act, potency, whatnot. Composed of parts is 550 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:20.400 how automobiles and all things operate. Think of your car, 551 00:30:20.599 --> 00:30:24.240 a drive shaft, the wheels, the windows, the chassis, whatever. 552 00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:29.720 They are dependent on an external assembler. A composite is 553 00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:33.640 ontologically posterior to its parts. If God had parts to 554 00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:36.720 you depend on a composer, a God behind the God. 555 00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:41.720 This is not a mere logical category. This is a fact. 556 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:48.680 This is an existential fact. It contradicts his assayeity, meaning 557 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.759 he is self subsistent, and his necessity to say otherwise. Now, 558 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:58.680 where you know, Jay, I think is equivocating or misunderstanding 559 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:06.079 Tomism is on several of the terms. They're just real 560 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:11.279 terminological differences that I think of good faith are eluding. 561 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:17.319 Now he will confuse platonism, neoplatonism, and aristotomism. These are 562 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:22.240 three separate systems that disagree radically, and they have informed 563 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:25.759 Christianity at different parts, But the Catholic Church is informed 564 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:31.359 by aristotomism, which I said predicates being analogically, which goes 565 00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:32.759 right to the heart of what we're going to be 566 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:39.440 debating with Palamus later. We don't use Platonism, which predicates 567 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:44.920 being unifically. I know the sounds absolutely insane, The terms 568 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:47.759 are are bizarre, but it's really really important because for 569 00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:50.880 us to even be able to speak about God, we 570 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:54.599 have to predicate being analogically. That means we have to 571 00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:59.599 be in aristotomist mode. Jay has said before he thinks 572 00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.079 that Aristotle and Thomas made being a genus. They explicitly 573 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:11.119 reject this in Platonism. So the Tomistic predication is never nivical. 574 00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:13.559 Being is never a genus. This goes right to the 575 00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:21.680 heart because of these equivocations. There are some basic terminological difficulties, 576 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:25.960 confusions equivocations on that he makes on essence versus nature. 577 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.200 These are very technical in matter, very much energies versus accidents, 578 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.599 act versus operations, Like pure act doesn't mean God is 579 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:39.079 pure action. It means God is pure being. And this 580 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:41.839 confuses the matter, and I think that might literally be 581 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.680 all that we're debating at the end of the day, 582 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:48.960 because God is pure being and even Eastern thinkers accept it. 583 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:55.400 Passive versus active potency, and relations of opposition versus contrariety, 584 00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:02.599 all of these together mean that necessarily think Jay is 585 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:05.759 intending to say that God is not pure being without 586 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:08.440 any becoming. We have to get to the heart of 587 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:10.240 the matter, all right, and at a time on that. 588 00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:12.160 I'll be adding another minute here Clark for a rebuttal, 589 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:13.880 because he went over a little bit there. 590 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:15.119 I was saying it. 591 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:16.599 You know, it's funny because I was I was trying to, 592 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.160 you know, execute some things you were saying, and Groc 593 00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:23.720 went just as complex. He was like the onontological exigency 594 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:26.319 of also the dogmatic corpus. I was like, wow, when 595 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.839 you have two people here there speaking at a level 596 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:32.400 of the ai' I'm asking the question. You know, this 597 00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:35.039 is a very complex debate has been going on for what, 598 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:39.319 in many ways well over a thousand years right now 599 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:42.640 as we're talking. And that's kind of an interesting point 600 00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:44.519 is that, you know, people that are Protestant are not 601 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.359 used to these complex, deep discussions. 602 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:48.200 And the things are like what do we want to 603 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:48.960 do today. 604 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:51.559 In Protestantism, And sometimes it's like, let's all be gay 605 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:53.759 pastors and everyone's like yay, and it's like okay. 606 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:54.880 But you know, people have. 607 00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.640 Been thinking about some of these topics for for centuries, 608 00:33:57.680 --> 00:33:59.440 you know, even for a millennia if you look at 609 00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.119 the actual topic here and when we talk about what's important. 610 00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:04.759 I just want to remind you guys, if you're watching that, 611 00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:09.480 take notes and rewatch, rethink, re listen, and try to 612 00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:13.960 understand the complexity of their arguments. Also crucible. Andrew Wilson, 613 00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:16.760 for another one hundred dollars, said, and here's another. He 614 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.559 also yelled out, say my names. I don't know why, 615 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.119 We'll just say your name Andrew Wilson in the chat. 616 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.119 It's good to see you here. We're very happy to 617 00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:27.360 have you. He also sent another chat for one hundred dollars. 618 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:29.519 He said, here's the last one. Take these guys out 619 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:31.599 to dinner, Elijah and yourself love you all. 620 00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:32.320 Yeah, and I would. 621 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:33.920 I don't know if you guys are free afterwards, but 622 00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:36.599 we'll check that out. If you're just joining for the 623 00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.239 first time, don't forget to like the video, don't forget 624 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:38.679 to subscribe. 625 00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:39.760 It's very important that you do. 626 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:43.280 And I want to jump into what I believe to 627 00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:45.039 be the most important part, which is give them a 628 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:48.599 chance to respond to each other. Particularly before we do that. Though, 629 00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.119 just a reminder to check out one of our sponsors 630 00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:53.840 for today, redpill Threads dot com. They are a T 631 00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:55.599 shirt company, but they're not just T shirt company. They 632 00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:57.800 are a merch company that has shirts that actually align 633 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.400 with our values. 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It even just helps if you 655 00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.119 click the link of the description as we are a 656 00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:55.280 new network, a new channel, and if you want to 657 00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:57.039 know what Rift TV is just a shout out or 658 00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:02.199 the first mainstream network developing from funding from only Western people, 659 00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:07.239 only Western countries, and we are not being defined by 660 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.320 any Zionism or any sort of outside influence that will 661 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.320 try to destroy our core message, which is to save 662 00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:17.039 Western civilization. That starts now and here with what we're discussing, 663 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.599 especially with Christianity. Now, let's go over to Jay Dyer. 664 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:23.840 I want to give you an example here. Jay is 665 00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:30.119 representing the Orthodox tradition in this discussion. You have six 666 00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:32.079 minutes on the clock. If you want to use, I'll 667 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:33.320 give you a minute. You want to use the minute here? 668 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:34.719 Do you want to use a minute on the cross 669 00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:36.039 examination of the clothing statement? 670 00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:38.840 I can tell your minutes up, I'll go and use 671 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:40.519 it here, because he touched on a lot of things. 672 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:44.119 Okay, cool, you have six minutes on the clock. Your 673 00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:45.119 time starts now, all. 674 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:45.760 Right, I'll work through this. 675 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:48.199 So the first thing that he said that was a 676 00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:51.679 basic theological mistake was that he identified God in the 677 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.880 Divine Essence with asayity. Of course, all the three persons 678 00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:58.320 have a sayity or self existence or our auto theos 679 00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:01.559 in that system, if they're identical to the divine essence, 680 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:05.440 except that he's not aware of Cappadocian theology, nor the 681 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:10.880 theology of Constantinople, one which accepted unanimously with explicit decree 682 00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:14.480 the necessity to follow the Cappadocian dictum that the Father 683 00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.079 is identified as autotheos. But to identify the Divine Essence 684 00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:21.840 as autothaos is actually to introduce the later Christological and 685 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:25.519 Trinitarian heresy that the Calvinists introduced, that the Son and 686 00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:27.960 the Spirit are also this autotheos because they share the 687 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:28.880 same divine essence. 688 00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:29.960 So he's not aware of that. 689 00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:34.519 That's a classic theological problem. Next, I didn't say that 690 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:38.400 God changed. He's confusing the idea of what orthodox call 691 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.440 reciprocity with the idea that God undergoes change. What we 692 00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:43.119 mean by that is that if you read the Book 693 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:46.119 of Amos, for example, God says he's going to destroy Israel. 694 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:49.119 Amos comes and praise and says the Lord, please don't 695 00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:51.559 do this, and God says, because you prayed, I'm not 696 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:55.480 going to destroy Israel. That does not mean that God 697 00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:58.280 can't excuse me that God undergoes change. It means that 698 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:02.920 he is willingly condescended to engage in a creaturely reciprocity. 699 00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:06.079 That means that God is first and foremost a divine person, 700 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:08.519 in particularly the person of the Father or the monarchea 701 00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:11.360 of the Father, which is a crucial Orthodox doction upon 702 00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:14.159 which all of this is built, whether it's the essence center, yourstinction, 703 00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:16.960 or these other distinctions. So, no, it is not the 704 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:19.599 case that creatures cause it divine essence to change or 705 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.239 anything like that. In fact, I said that there's two 706 00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:24.400 ways that we can name God. I guess he didn't 707 00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:25.920 hear that, or he just wanted to do the quote 708 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.679 mind from the Eastern Fathers, ignoring, by the way, all 709 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:31.239 the places in those Eastern Fathers where they actually make 710 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.280 the arguments against his position. For example, a specifically cited 711 00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:37.599 Maximus pointing out that the same energies that God possesses 712 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:41.760 are the same energies that deify the saints. He says 713 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:45.559 in at the Lascios, which thus means that Trent is 714 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:48.360 wrong when the Council, Trent says that we are justified 715 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:51.960 in baptism by the righteousness, not that God has himself, 716 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:53.400 but by the righteousness by which He. 717 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.159 Makes us just. 718 00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:01.760 And again, to cite Nissa, again, common nature is identified 719 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:04.199 by common energy. If you read on the Holy Spirit 720 00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:06.800 by Saint Basil, you'll notice that the way that Basil 721 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:09.800 proves the Holy Spirit is fully divine with the Father 722 00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:12.639 and the Son is because he possesses the exact same 723 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:16.400 energy or operation, because energy and operations signify nature. Now 724 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:19.199 interesting in the scripture is when we read about the 725 00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:21.400 gifts of the Holy Spirit. In the Book of Corinthians, 726 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.280 when Paul talks about the spiritually gifts, he calls them 727 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:27.039 the gifts of the inner gaya of the Spirit, the 728 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:30.880 energies of the Spirit. Tim could look at Strong's seventeen 729 00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.400 fifty three and he would see all the multiple uses 730 00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:36.000 throughout the New Testament, even places in the septuagen where 731 00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:38.920 inner gaia is used many times over, and that leads 732 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:40.480 me to the other issue he doesn't seem to be 733 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:42.920 well aware of in scholarship, which is if he could 734 00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.679 read Michael Renee Barnes's book Dunamis in Gregor Nissa, where 735 00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:49.800 there's this idea of the discussion of the power of God. 736 00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:53.639 And this is the Cappadocian dictum to utilize first and 737 00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:57.360 second actuality to help explain how it's possible for God 738 00:39:57.400 --> 00:40:00.559 to create and yet to be perfect and to not 739 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:04.280 undergo change. So to say that God possesses first and 740 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.199 second act and that he doesn't always actualize all of 741 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.320 his powers does not imply any imperfection and deity, and 742 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.559 rather it implies God has free will. If I was 743 00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:16.559 a Toast or a Roman Catholic, and I identified the 744 00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:20.199 act of creating with the divine essence as they do 745 00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:25.159 and with divine providence, then there's a necessary creation and 746 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:30.039 a necessary providence, and a necessary world that occurs because 747 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.719 those things are isomorphically identical. This is called the modal 748 00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:39.639 collapse argument. So that also refutes Tim's reductionist position. People 749 00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:44.280 can look at Radigalwitz's famous Oxford thesis on simplicity in 750 00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:49.239 the Cappadocians. Moving on, he noted that as he went 751 00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:51.119 through his quote Mind of the Eastern Church Fathers, he 752 00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:55.480 sort of tried to fit this into an aristotomist scheme. Well, 753 00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:58.920 if he was able to look into the scholarship on 754 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:03.639 the Cappadocians, the transition from the Cappadocians into Cyril and 755 00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:06.760 Maximus and John Damascus in a very very recent, very 756 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:09.159 well known text by yan Zach Kuber called the Rise 757 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.760 of Christian Theology Naction Metaphysics, he would know that the 758 00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:15.480 Cappadocians were not working with a two tiered cause effect 759 00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:19.519 Aristotelian scheme. They're working more so with a neoplatonic scheme. 760 00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:22.360 I'm not advocating for neoplatonism. I'm saying that when the 761 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:26.440 neoplatonic philosophy is used by the Cabo Doocians, and thus 762 00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:29.599 that model and that tendency to speak that way is 763 00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:32.760 accept a particularly a Constantinople, one which by the way 764 00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:34.840 is called close and had out of communion with Rome, 765 00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.480 which is the council that defines the Trinity. It has 766 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:39.760 nothing to do with aristotomism, and so this is a 767 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:43.519 kind of a revisionist anachronistic approach where they will take 768 00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:47.039 things and reread the tonistic positions into quote minds from 769 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:51.079 the Church fathers. Because as I noted, as Gregor of 770 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.679 Nissa says, the invisible God becomes visible by his energies. 771 00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.079 He is not seen or known in his essence, but 772 00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:00.480 in his operations. And that's from on the Beata Toudes 773 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.000 section four. So divine energies are what come down to us. 774 00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:06.679 It is not the mere created effects, but the actual 775 00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:11.519 participation in the attributes, energies and life of God. That's 776 00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:13.960 not a created thing. Jesus says in John seventeen, he 777 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.159 came to give us a share in the glory that 778 00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:18.239 he had with the Father before the foundation of the world. 779 00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:22.159 Saus it is a real participation in uncreated glory. God's 780 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.760 glory is not a creature. The glory and the grace 781 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:27.480 itself is what we partake of. So he says that 782 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:30.400 I engage in unifical predication. I never made an argument 783 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:34.039 that human terms or conceptions aren't unifical to the attributes. 784 00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:36.280 In fact, I would agree with analogical predication. 785 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.320 It's just that the analogies do not match up to 786 00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:41.559 divine essence, they match up. 787 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:42.519 To the energies. 788 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:45.360 Hence Basil says in Letter two thirty four, what God's 789 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:47.800 essence says, we do not know, but rather it is 790 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:50.920 his energies, his operations that come down to us. Exactly 791 00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:53.960 what Innessa says Jay Dyer. That was the rebuttal. 792 00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.760 Now, obviously you can both rebuttal his opening statement and 793 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.239 his rebuttal here a few of his points. You are 794 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:03.360 going to have five minutes on the clock. Please with 795 00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.639 the rebuttal, try to keep it within the direct timing. 796 00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:09.760 If we're in halftime, you have an extra thirty seconds. Bleed, 797 00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:17.119 Go ahead, Timothy in Strong's since Jay cited it. Energeia 798 00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:24.199 in Paul means God's activity and grace, not specifically, not 799 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.119 a metaphysical part of God. 800 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.000 Distinct from his essence. This would this would repeat the 801 00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:33.679 entire position. The Catholic theology captures this through uncreated grace. 802 00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:38.519 That's our position, God himself at work in us and 803 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:41.440 without it, does all of this without dividing him into 804 00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:45.800 essence versus energies. So it's sounded by that quote as 805 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:49.679 if it was essence energies, nothing of the sort. The 806 00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:53.119 Orthodox move from a biblical usage of energeia, which again 807 00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.000 I warned you there would be this equivocation time and 808 00:43:56.039 --> 00:43:58.639 time and time again, because entergaya is a word in 809 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:03.400 the Greek that's frequent here to metaphysics, and ergay it 810 00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:06.159 means something very very different in the in the distinction 811 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:13.320 between essence and energies. It's a strong extrapolation, in strong 812 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:18.079 I think the most important question that Jay frequently asks sincerely, 813 00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:20.840 I've heard him ask it sincerely many times. I'm not 814 00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:24.480 being facetious here is he'll ask, And this is really 815 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.400 at the heart of the matter. Why if there's a 816 00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:33.400 real distinction between If Catholics allow a real distinction between 817 00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:38.239 the three persons, why can't they abide a real distinction 818 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:42.400 between the divine essence and the energies? Which is a 819 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:46.920 it's a fair question. The answer is usiological, which means 820 00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:50.719 when we're looking at the single essence of God, the 821 00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:57.239 one thing which absolutely must be worshiped. This has been 822 00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:02.000 affirmed at I see it too. Worship is latria worship 823 00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:06.800 proper to the divine essence alone. We are talking about 824 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:13.000 God's one uzia. Real distinctions within that Uzia can be 825 00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:16.519 made by what we've called relations of opposition between the 826 00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:21.679 three persons. That because in proper theology, the three persons 827 00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:26.679 are inside that divine essence, that Uziah. This does not 828 00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:33.880 enable or rehabilitate or allow extra usiological distinctions between God's 829 00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:37.400 essence and energies, because the entire point of the essence 830 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:41.360 energies distinction is that there is a real distinction, and 831 00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:44.960 they don't have what we call virtual distinctions anyway. There's 832 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:52.199 a real distinction between God's Uziah and his energies, his 833 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:59.280 operations that and they're uncreated, both whether you're talking philosophy 834 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:04.719 or classical theology. Anything that's uncreated is God. Anything that 835 00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.679 is on the other side of creation as God. So 836 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:10.960 if you have an uzir that is the divine essence 837 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:15.800 of God and something else that's uncreated you're talking about, 838 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:19.079 you must be talking about two gods anyway. This is 839 00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.400 why we don't allow that distinction, any distinctions within the 840 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:29.559 single divine essence. The relations of opposition between fatherhood and filiality, filiation, 841 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:33.960 these are fine. These make sense. Relations of opposition makes 842 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.159 sense from within what we know to be the Trinity, 843 00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:40.360 within the uziah of God. The Father is not the Son, 844 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.119 is not the Holy Spirit. But they're all the same 845 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:48.519 substance of God. But you can't make you can't distinguish 846 00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:53.880 between two uncreated realities outside of space and time without 847 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:57.840 positing a new essence. So it's an usiological answer. It's 848 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:01.719 very basic, and hopefully you see that the former is 849 00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:05.320 possible because monotheism requires one uzia of God, whereas the 850 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:09.519 latter would require seemingly two divine uzias. They won't say it, 851 00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:13.079 they won't say that the position is too divine uzias 852 00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.440 because it's one divine essence and then something else uncreated. 853 00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:22.320 But it's required, it's necessarily follows incredible. 854 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.119 So you know, in the midst of this you actually 855 00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:25.920 are under time by forty five seconds? 856 00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:28.559 Can I? So if you want to keep going, yeah, 857 00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:33.000 I would just say there's there's scriptural evidence against the 858 00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:39.480 essence energies distinction too. I'll jump into the Theophanes that 859 00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:44.480 Jay has been talking about in Exodus three one to six. 860 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:49.599 At the burning bush, God himself speaks. It's not that 861 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:55.159 God some energies of God speak. God himself speaks. It's 862 00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:58.280 a direct quote. But pillar of cloud and fire the 863 00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:01.519 Lord went before them, not a separate energy. Is a fact. 864 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:06.280 The Lord himself, the substance of God, went before them. 865 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.920 So direct quote in Isaiah chapter six one to five. 866 00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:14.079 In the vision Isaiah saw the Lord did not see 867 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:20.440 some likeness of the Lord. In John chapter twelve, verse 868 00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:23.920 forty one, this is applied to Christ. At the transfiguration, 869 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:30.239 the apostles beheld Christ's glory participation. So this is important 870 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:33.559 because when we're talking about the divine essence, we're talking 871 00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.000 about the divine essence. When we're talking about some work 872 00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.760 of God, we're talking about something that's distinct. 873 00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:42.039 Okay, So, Jay, I don't know if you were laughing 874 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:44.320 at him or you're laughing in his argument, I showed 875 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.159 you're chuckling a little bit over there, and I couldn't 876 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:47.639 help but notice. 877 00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:48.599 And so you know, as you. 878 00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:50.840 Cross examine and you go into this, you'll have exactly 879 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:52.840 five minutes to respond. 880 00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:54.199 Here the clock starts. 881 00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:57.199 Now go ahead, No but wait a minute, oh yes, 882 00:48:57.239 --> 00:49:01.000 stop hold on, so I can cross the exam and interrupt, 883 00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:02.400 right uh. 884 00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:04.360 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I just I just 885 00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:06.000 wanted you to do a little bit, if you is 886 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.199 that how you would like to that is that how 887 00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:09.639 you'd like to do that that section, like to what 888 00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:11.639 were you going to say? Oh? No, I was gonna say. 889 00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:13.039 I didn't know if you wanted to go back over 890 00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.519 what he was just saying right now and then jump 891 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:16.199 in there a little bit. 892 00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:18.920 But uh, well, what we'd agreed to was cross exam 893 00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:21.079 where we can where I cross exam him and I 894 00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:23.920 can abrupt him correct yea. 895 00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:28.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally within reason. Yeah yeah, I mean yeah, exactly. 896 00:49:28.119 --> 00:49:31.280 Potentially just gonna interrupt every five seconds. 897 00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:32.320 Yeah, that's funny. 898 00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:34.199 I'm glad that you mentioned Exodus three because it was 899 00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:36.400 actually next to my notes, because I don't know if 900 00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:38.760 you're familiar with Exdus twenty three, because God goes on 901 00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:42.599 to describe who that being is. You said, the substance 902 00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:45.519 of God went before them. Do you think that the 903 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:47.760 substance of God is the angel messenger? 904 00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:53.000 No, I think I think that God entered into I 905 00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:58.920 believe that the Theophanes represent a creation of God. Are 906 00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:00.800 they the substance of God or they represent they're not 907 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:02.760 the substance of God. You said the substance of God 908 00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.039 went before them. Yeah, No, I didn't mean it that way. 909 00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.000 Okay, But in Leviticus nine, it's said to be the 910 00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:09.199 glory of God that comes down. 911 00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:13.679 It was an equivocation. Yeah, I'm just saying in God himself. 912 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.599 Yeah, so it's God himself for a representation, because that's 913 00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:17.079 a big deal. 914 00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:20.480 We believe it's a representation. Okay. 915 00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:23.400 In Leviticus nine, what comes down in that so often 916 00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:26.159 he is called the glory of God is God's glory 917 00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:30.599 of creature? Yes, God's glory is a creature. Yes, you're 918 00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:31.360 a polytheist. 919 00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:35.400 No, you called the divice that glory is a creature 920 00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:39.639 because it's created. Yes, God's glorious creator, like I said, 921 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:41.280 like I said at the beginning, well this is the 922 00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:45.079 Catholic position, and you know it's the laughing at it 923 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:48.000 to pretend that this isn't a one thousand year old dispute. 924 00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:51.000 Are you about what you're saying? God's glory is created? 925 00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:53.519 God's glory is? Is it eternal? 926 00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:55.079 Yes? 927 00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:59.360 So there's eternal. So you're a polytheist. God's glory is 928 00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:01.800 eternally created. And this is a game. 929 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:03.559 It's not a game. 930 00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:07.199 Okay, this is why it's let me know poetry, let's 931 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.039 do fifteen second blocks. It's not a game. No, it's 932 00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.239 you said that God's glory is eternal and it's a creature, 933 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:17.199 that the angels are eternal, and no they're not. They're created. 934 00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:21.760 No, they can be eternal with God like a footprint 935 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:24.320 in sand, to use Augustin's term. 936 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:29.280 Yeah, yeah, are they created axt nilo? Well, of course, yeah, 937 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:34.840 they're not eternal, they're not uncreated. But with regard to glory, 938 00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:38.280 it can't since it's uncreated. Since it is created. Which 939 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:39.800 one is it? Since it's created? 940 00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:45.800 Jay, No, it's not to God because I'm created, separate 941 00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:48.679 from the divine, as you to gods. 942 00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:52.039 I don't believe that that the glory is a creature. 943 00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:55.000 You may you messed up by saying that you belielory 944 00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:57.599 is eternal. It's uncreated. It's the glory that. 945 00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:00.000 Is it separate from the divine. Up to me, it's 946 00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:04.280 my time because i'm because I'm asking you back questions 947 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:06.280 in my cross examination. All right, he's. 948 00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:09.719 Correct on that, Yeah, sure, all right, Yeah, so let's 949 00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:10.719 let's leave the question. 950 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.719 Seventeen. Can I clarify my answer quickly if he allows you? Okay, 951 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:20.519 so we say it's not polytheism because it's created. It's 952 00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:24.679 that simple. God's glory is a creature. God's glory is 953 00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:25.079 a creature. 954 00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:28.320 Wow, you understand that in Ezekiel, the son is identified 955 00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:28.960 as the glory. 956 00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:32.400 Is the son a creature? No, this is an equivocal definition, 957 00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:36.880 because yeah, woman is the glory of man. That doesn't 958 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:41.679 mean that she's Uh. The unifical predication is the glory 959 00:52:41.679 --> 00:52:45.119 of the father. The son in this analogical sense can 960 00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:47.000 be the glory of the Father. That doesn't mean so 961 00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:52.599 when is that God's glory as such is uncreated? Okay? 962 00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:55.239 And Judge's six it says that Yahweh turned his face 963 00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:58.039 to get in. Is that Yahweh really in time of space? 964 00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:02.079 Or you don't know? Yeah, I'm not sure. 965 00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:03.760 Well, maybe you should have looked into the theophanies if 966 00:53:03.800 --> 00:53:08.440 you wanted to talk. Well, you've already admitted that God's 967 00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:14.400 glory is a creature. Right, that's polytheism, an analogy. I mean, 968 00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:16.639 I never disagree with anal analogical predication. 969 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:19.280 But you no, No, I don't mean analogic. I mean when 970 00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:23.960 God turns his face. You think that a theophany means 971 00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:31.440 requires logical body? Did Jacob rustle with Jesus it's a theophany? 972 00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:33.400 Did he wrestle with Jesus. We say this is a 973 00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:40.840 created participation. So the son prior to the incarnation was created. No, 974 00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:42.920 this is what you said. It was a creature. 975 00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:45.440 It's less than a So now you're a polytheist again, 976 00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:47.480 and there's multiple gods less than the creature. 977 00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:49.679 I can't be a polytheist, Jay, if I keep saying 978 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:54.440 that these are creations, I'm only a god. I separate 979 00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:57.000 from the divine essence you're calling that is God, and 980 00:53:57.679 --> 00:54:01.920 that they're called that means they're not creatures. 981 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.840 You always uncreated. His glory is uncreated because he had 982 00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:08.679 it forever in the triad in a triadic relationship. You 983 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:11.960 said God's glory is a creature. You just messed up 984 00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:13.440 big time. That's idolatry. 985 00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:16.159 That's I'm done all right six the time, And yeah, 986 00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:17.880 I was gonna add another thirty seconds out of the clock. 987 00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:20.360 Then anyways, you still have thirty seconds here for him 988 00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:22.840 interrupting you with the questions. So you have an additional 989 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:25.559 minute on a future category if you'd like to, especially 990 00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:27.760 in the closing or on a separate topic. 991 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:30.199 We'll go ahead and we will switch Outay, hold on, 992 00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:30.840 I have more time or. 993 00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:32.719 No, I'll give you an extra minute because of him 994 00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:34.639 interrupting the questions. You have thirty seconds left, and I'm 995 00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:38.119 give you additional thirty seconds onto either to the closing 996 00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:40.760 or on the section of the next topic. Let's go 997 00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:44.119 over to Timothy. Go ahead, you have five minutes on 998 00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:46.320 the clock. You can be in your questioning. 999 00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:50.440 Okay. If the energies are not the divine essence, there's 1000 00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:54.679 a real distinction between them, but they're still uncreated. How 1001 00:54:54.679 --> 00:54:58.039 many such uncreated realities are there in God? Butzel says, 1002 00:54:58.039 --> 00:55:03.519 there's infinite energies, So they're infinite uncreated existences. Are they 1003 00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:08.199 essences of their own? Their energies? Hence they're not essences? Oh, 1004 00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:10.079 so what are they? But they're uncreated? 1005 00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:15.920 So the operations, the attributes, and the thought, wills or 1006 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:17.199 ideas of God. 1007 00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:21.760 So they're infinite. There are uncreated things? Well, I'm asking you. Yeah, 1008 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:24.679 God is one in many. But except so when we 1009 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:29.639 go to worship God, we worship infinite things. Yes, God's infinite. 1010 00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:31.199 I don't know if you know that. No, do you 1011 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:35.320 worship an infinite number of properties? 1012 00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:39.079 When we say God is infinite, infinity is an infinite number? 1013 00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:44.199 Can I worship the energies alone without worshiping the divine essence. 1014 00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:48.679 No, because every person who acts in the every every 1015 00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:52.000 act of God is triadic and thus includes all of God. 1016 00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:55.280 But then, how are they really distinct because God does 1017 00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:59.639 different things? What does that mean? Creating isn't walking on water? No, 1018 00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.960 if I can't worship them separately, in other words, if 1019 00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.599 there's not a passive potency in them that is receptive 1020 00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:10.480 of my worship God's divine essence, his energies, I can't 1021 00:56:10.519 --> 00:56:14.679 worship them separately. So why call them really distinct? Because 1022 00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.639 if you guys had virtual distinctions the way you should hear, 1023 00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:19.559 this wouldn't be a problem. But because you say it's 1024 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:23.039 a real distinction in God, that's a problem. Modal collapse 1025 00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:25.440 is why we don't. This is not modal collapse. Why 1026 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:27.960 I'm telling you why we don't have that? No? No, 1027 00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:31.159 But but then they're not really distinct. You just said they're. 1028 00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:35.800 Distinct, because it can't be they are really distinct because 1029 00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:37.519 the Father and the son are really distinct, and you 1030 00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:38.440 don't have a problem with that. 1031 00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:40.119 I don't have a problem with that because that's all 1032 00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:42.280 within one Uziah. Do you have a problem with constant 1033 00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:46.039 standardizes are the operations from that one? You see, they 1034 00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:48.840 might be the operations from but they're different from the uzia. 1035 00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:54.000 Distinction applies to the substance. You're with me, right, So 1036 00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:57.039 like when we make a distinction about a thing, we're 1037 00:56:57.079 --> 00:57:03.599 making a distinction about the substance itself. Philosophy one on one. Yeah, yeah, sure, okay, 1038 00:57:03.840 --> 00:57:06.800 So that's what I That's why I asked, why can 1039 00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:10.199 we call them really distinct when they're they're somehow outside 1040 00:57:10.280 --> 00:57:14.400 the uzia. They're different from it. They're really distinct, they're 1041 00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:17.559 not virtually distinct. But I mean, do you want to end? 1042 00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:20.079 You want answer? I want your answer? 1043 00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:21.719 Right, Well, I'm going to say what they say because 1044 00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:24.280 I agree with them. They say that just as a 1045 00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:28.159 person works, he's not identical to the work, and persons 1046 00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:28.960 do different works. 1047 00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:31.360 Okay, but that's a nonsense term. You can't say it's 1048 00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:36.320 really distinct. That's fine. I'm just saying it doesn't work 1049 00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:41.639 out because when something is distinct. No not, because when 1050 00:57:41.679 --> 00:57:45.159 something is distinct usiologically, that means that we would have 1051 00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:48.760 to act upon it. It would it would receive passive potency. 1052 00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:52.679 Is that the persons, because they're the same. Do you 1053 00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:56.639 think the persons aren't consubstantial they're really distinct? No, they're 1054 00:57:56.679 --> 00:57:59.719 really distinct within an uzia. Oh, I don't believe that. 1055 00:58:00.280 --> 00:58:02.639 You don't believe the person of the trinity are within 1056 00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:04.679 the same us. I don't start with the essence. I'll 1057 00:58:04.679 --> 00:58:07.159 start with the fathers, the monarchical dark. Wait, you don't 1058 00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:10.440 believe that the three persons are consubstantart. I'm not asking 1059 00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:13.079 where you started. I asked, do you think that the 1060 00:58:13.159 --> 00:58:16.760 persons are consubstantial? Yes? Or now? Of course they're consubstantial. Okay, 1061 00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:19.880 I don't So they're not ziologically distinct. That's all I'm saying. 1062 00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:22.679 I don't have your metaphysics. No, I don't have your metaphysics. 1063 00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:25.840 But the point is they can't be distinct if we're 1064 00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:28.880 talking about two separate things. The persons are not too separate. 1065 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:30.440 The three persons are not too separate. 1066 00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:34.039 The relations of opposition the energy is a separate not Okay, 1067 00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:36.079 they're not separate, is my if I work? 1068 00:58:36.199 --> 00:58:38.880 Is it separate? No? You screwed up there. No I didn't. 1069 00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:41.360 You're just saying I screwed up the energy did I 1070 00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:44.480 never said separate? Is it consubstantial or not? I said, 1071 00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:47.880 the persons are consubstantially. Yes, the energies aren't consubstantial with 1072 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:51.280 the essence, though for very distinct Okay, but then I 1073 00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:54.559 can't worship them separately. Then the same here's here's another one, 1074 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.360 that the essence is eternally unknowable. Do we fulfill our 1075 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.360 final end in the Beatific vision. We don't believe in 1076 00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:05.559 the Bitua vision because we believe in the purpose of life. Okay, 1077 00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:08.360 when we look at you believe we see God in 1078 00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:09.519 the end. We don't see God. 1079 00:59:09.559 --> 00:59:13.119 That's not our union, the uncreated energies, and we have 1080 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:16.800 a body. So I don't believe in a uh neoplatonic 1081 00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:18.360 satiating of the intellect. 1082 00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:22.679 You're a platonist. I'm not a platonist on the Beato vision. No, 1083 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:27.599 you know it's from origin. Yes, So you don't believe 1084 00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:31.079 that we can fulfill the purpose of life and see 1085 00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:32.239 the divine essence ever? 1086 00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:35.719 Right, Nissa says, no one sees the divine essence ever, 1087 00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:37.159 even in theton. 1088 00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:37.639 Even in the sketon. 1089 00:59:38.599 --> 00:59:41.000 Okay, I said, we see the divine energies, as the 1090 00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:44.239 Cappadocians say, we see the things around God, not his essence. 1091 00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:47.639 What do you think the things around God are. If 1092 00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:50.719 God has passive potency, explain to me how he can 1093 00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:53.440 be immutable, eternal, perfect thirty second bleed. 1094 00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:57.960 Right now, divine essence is unchanging, unalterable. But I don't 1095 00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:00.519 reduce the persons and their actions to the essence, and 1096 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:03.440 so it's not a problem for me. Yes, I answered, 1097 01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:04.400 with reciprocity. 1098 01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:08.400 You're just saying there is a circular object, this planer 1099 01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:12.239 that can be orthogonal. I mean, explain divine revelation then yeah, 1100 01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:16.679 So if God can be I never I said that 1101 01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:20.480 he condescends to have their identity with creatures. That doesn't 1102 01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:22.800 make sense. I'm sorry you don't believe that prayer, right, 1103 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:26.639 God answers prayer? No, I believe acted upon which you've 1104 01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:29.079 said several times in your podcast. I never said that 1105 01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:33.199 passive potency. How could he still be immutable? The divine 1106 01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:34.320 essence doesn't change. 1107 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:38.000 God condescends to have reciprole relationships with our prayers. 1108 01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:39.519 That's what I said. That's time there. 1109 01:00:39.559 --> 01:00:41.480 I'm glad you don't think God answers prayers. So again 1110 01:00:41.559 --> 01:00:43.079 you have a pagan metaphysical system. 1111 01:00:43.239 --> 01:00:44.639 All right, that's the time question. 1112 01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:46.320 Now, what I want to know from you guys in 1113 01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:48.760 the chat right now if you heard the cross examination. 1114 01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:51.159 One's in the chat if you think that Jay is 1115 01:00:51.159 --> 01:00:53.119 cooking and that you think that he's winning right now 1116 01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:55.320 in terms of just truth, and I don't want to 1117 01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:56.840 hear just the Orthodox pros. 1118 01:00:56.960 --> 01:00:58.599 I know how you guys, are you guys will just 1119 01:00:58.639 --> 01:01:00.480 be like jaywins. 1120 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:02.320 So One's in the chat if you think theologically is 1121 01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:05.039 arguments and more sound. Two in the chat if you 1122 01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:08.480 think that Timothy's arguments and cross examination was more sound. 1123 01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:11.400 That means even if you're Orthodox or you're Catholic, you 1124 01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:13.239 don't have to vote for your home team. One's in 1125 01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:15.159 the chat for j Two's in the chats. 1126 01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:17.400 Before we do the closing statement, I do want to 1127 01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:19.159 just read a couple of super chats here reminding you 1128 01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:22.679 guys that Humphluru one said tim is based, Jay is based. 1129 01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:25.360 We should be Catholic republic and the Authos should build 1130 01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:28.400 the churches. We also had from Daniel Ward seventy nine said, 1131 01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:30.199 thank you Tim Gordon for defending the one true Church 1132 01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:33.440 that Jesus founded on the Prince of the Apostle, Saint Peter. 1133 01:01:33.760 --> 01:01:36.280 May all least an Orthodox become Catholics, so we may 1134 01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:39.840 be in one holy Catholic and Apostolic church. We also 1135 01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:43.440 read the ones here from Maximus Decimus said keep my 1136 01:01:43.519 --> 01:01:45.000 name out of your mouth, little boy, shout out for 1137 01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:48.360 our supreme leader, Jay Dyer, Christ is King. All right, 1138 01:01:48.400 --> 01:01:50.840 we're gonna give a one more minute here to read 1139 01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:53.599 a couple super chats before we get to the closing statements. 1140 01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:56.320 Servant Necros is thirty three cent, huge respect for Jay. 1141 01:01:56.400 --> 01:02:00.280 Keep it up my brother now the Aldohyan and also 1142 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:02.119 said Tim makes you sleep in Elijah is using groc 1143 01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:04.440 This is the most rigorous debate I have ever seen. 1144 01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:05.079 It's truth. 1145 01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:06.480 I don't use I don't use AI, but I had 1146 01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:07.760 to use ad a lookup some of the stuff you 1147 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:11.760 were saying in real time. Also, we have missed a 1148 01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:14.159 fist and said I'm too subtarted to understand any of this. 1149 01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:17.400 But Orthodox have better hats, which settles it. A tree 1150 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.079 will be known by its fruit. Come home, Papists. So 1151 01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:21.559 it looks like we got a pretty good split in 1152 01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:24.199 between there. Right, let's move into the closing statement. Just 1153 01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:26.039 so you guys know watching at home, we will be 1154 01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:28.679 taking a five minute break between each of our topics. 1155 01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:30.679 So you can use the restroom, you can breathe, and 1156 01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:32.960 it might be a couple of minutes, so don't go anywhere. 1157 01:02:33.119 --> 01:02:35.679 We're gonna start with our closing statement. If you guys 1158 01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:37.840 are John, are you prepared and are you prepared to go? 1159 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:40.880 All right, Jay, you're gonna have ten minutes on the clock. 1160 01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:42.519 You do have an extra minut would you want to 1161 01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:44.400 use it here on a future topic? 1162 01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:48.360 We'll say that. Okay, soat we're doing closing statements for 1163 01:02:48.400 --> 01:02:52.000 each topic. Well, that's the forumt that I was handed here, 1164 01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:53.840 unless you like to do a closing statement overall. I 1165 01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:57.039 thought we were doing overall. But what I defer to 1166 01:02:57.079 --> 01:02:59.480 you if you want to do, that's your figure. That's 1167 01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:00.159 gonna be really. 1168 01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:04.360 What about brief? Yeah, why we just want we'll just 1169 01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:07.760 do a three minute wrap up because I think that's 1170 01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:09.800 for a lot of us. Just a reminder, because this 1171 01:03:09.840 --> 01:03:11.800 is an internet debate. While there are a lot of theologians, 1172 01:03:11.840 --> 01:03:13.679 some people may have gotten lost in there. So maybe 1173 01:03:13.719 --> 01:03:16.360 we'll keep to understanding to help us understand what your 1174 01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:18.639 final statement was. You have three minutes on the clock. 1175 01:03:18.679 --> 01:03:20.480 Will make it brief and we'll have a complete one 1176 01:03:20.519 --> 01:03:22.960 at the end. Go ahead, Jay, your time starts now. 1177 01:03:23.800 --> 01:03:24.000 Yeah. 1178 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:27.639 I want to remind everybody that again, I think if 1179 01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:32.199 you are familiar with Biblical theology, the Patristic teaching, nobody 1180 01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:35.559 believes that the glory of God is in any sense 1181 01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:39.480 a creature or created. In fact, it is the uncreated 1182 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:42.119 immortality and light that Paul talks about at the end 1183 01:03:42.119 --> 01:03:45.880 of Timothy, in which God eternally dwells that uncreated light 1184 01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:49.360 in glory was manifested in Matthew seventeen on the mount 1185 01:03:49.400 --> 01:03:52.480 of transfiguration through the human nature of Christ. 1186 01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:54.559 And so it is precisely this crucial. 1187 01:03:54.239 --> 01:03:59.079 Mistake that's made amongst the Catholic friends of ours that 1188 01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:02.079 they think that this in some way will violate these 1189 01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:05.280 basic metaphysical principles. But in fact we have a reverse 1190 01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:09.480 system that we derive our theology first, in our metaphysics second. 1191 01:04:09.599 --> 01:04:12.039 This is what allowed the Church Fathers to be. 1192 01:04:13.480 --> 01:04:17.440 Pretty fluid with the way that they appropriated the philosophy 1193 01:04:17.480 --> 01:04:18.079 of their day. 1194 01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:19.639 As the zach Kuber. 1195 01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:22.320 Book notes, the Church Fathers are able to in some 1196 01:04:22.360 --> 01:04:25.119 places pull from Arisothean logic text, but for the most 1197 01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:28.679 part they utilize a lot of neoplatonic argumentation. At least 1198 01:04:28.719 --> 01:04:31.000 up until John Damascus, who then does use a lot 1199 01:04:31.039 --> 01:04:32.519 more Aristotilian argumentation. 1200 01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:35.000 So what that shows is that for us, it's not. 1201 01:04:34.920 --> 01:04:38.400 A question of Aristotle versus Plato, but rather divine revelation, 1202 01:04:38.679 --> 01:04:42.199 as Father Fluorowsky says, which comes first and foremost. And 1203 01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:47.079 that's why, for example, when Aquinas in on a de vertate, 1204 01:04:47.239 --> 01:04:49.920 when he talks about the section on divine simplicity, when 1205 01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:54.079 he rejects John Damascus's essence energy argument, which shows by 1206 01:04:54.079 --> 01:04:56.719 the way that John Damascus is actually making the same 1207 01:04:56.840 --> 01:04:59.519 essence energy arguments that I'm making, which is precisely why 1208 01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:01.559 they were present in all the cab Dootionans, why I 1209 01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:05.159 was present in Saint Cyril, and it's even present in St. 1210 01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:06.159 Anthonasius himself. 1211 01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:09.400 If you read Fluorowsky's essay on Creation and Creaturehood about 1212 01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:13.360 the essenceentary distinction in sant Athenasius even you'll notice that 1213 01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:17.119 Aquandas's rejection has nothing to do with what the actual 1214 01:05:17.199 --> 01:05:21.800 Patristic teaching is. In fact, he says in on the contrary. Moreover, 1215 01:05:22.400 --> 01:05:27.000 Rabbi my Minides notes that the names of God do 1216 01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:31.039 not signify intentions added to the substance of God, because 1217 01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:34.800 every accident signifies an intention added to the substance of 1218 01:05:34.840 --> 01:05:38.639 its subject. Therefore, the foregoing names do not signify an accident. 1219 01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:39.119 In God. 1220 01:05:39.519 --> 01:05:43.159 We simply don't have the two tiered metaphysical collapse structure 1221 01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:46.679 that He has, which nobody in the first seven hundred 1222 01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:48.559 years of the Patristic teaching has either. 1223 01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:51.719 So the attempt to categorize. 1224 01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:54.320 The energies as accidental or in some way hearts or 1225 01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:56.639 something like that was never an argument that I made, 1226 01:05:56.840 --> 01:05:58.760 nor did any of the Eastern trust Fathers make it. 1227 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:02.119 And in fact, if you the dissutation with Piis which 1228 01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:04.960 is the theology of Saint Maximus that goes into the 1229 01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:07.519 Confession of Saint Sophronius, which is accepted at the six 1230 01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:11.920 Ecumenical Council, that whole treatise, it's about one hundred pages, 1231 01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:16.679 is a treatise utilizing all the same essence energy arguments 1232 01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:21.280 that I make against the monothelite monophysite position that is 1233 01:06:21.320 --> 01:06:24.280 accepted in the Confession of Saint Sophronius at the sixth 1234 01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:28.199 Econminical Council, and even Pope Agatho in his letter admits 1235 01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:31.480 two wills and two energies in Christ and so when 1236 01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:35.800 when Tim said that inner gaia means something very different 1237 01:06:35.800 --> 01:06:38.679 in the Bible, it's not metaphysical. He then goes on 1238 01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:44.880 to give this elaborate ussiological story about what it's all 1239 01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.239 really meaning, doing the very opposite of what I'm doing, 1240 01:06:48.280 --> 01:06:50.639 which is looking at the text when it says that 1241 01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:54.320 Moses walked up on the mountain and God's glory was 1242 01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:57.360 shown to him, his goodnesses, and by the way, it's 1243 01:06:57.360 --> 01:07:01.159 plural there the goodnesses of God are shown. And yet 1244 01:07:01.239 --> 01:07:03.679 Jesus says in John five, no one saw the Father 1245 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:06.360 at any time. Well, it's not the energies that are 1246 01:07:06.440 --> 01:07:09.239 manifesting in time and space. It is the person of 1247 01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:11.880 the Son, who is the face of the Father in 1248 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:13.199 time and space, and. 1249 01:07:13.119 --> 01:07:15.440 It is his energies that are manifest sacing. 1250 01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:19.039 So he misunderstood, especially when he was talking about the 1251 01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:21.400 Angel of the Lord, who is obviously the person of 1252 01:07:21.480 --> 01:07:23.960 Christ in time and space in the Theophany. So I 1253 01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:26.440 think that that Theophanees really clenches the whole argument. 1254 01:07:26.679 --> 01:07:28.880 All right, it was forty seconds over, but we'll give 1255 01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:30.360 you the minute bleed. Go ahead. 1256 01:07:30.360 --> 01:07:32.199 I'm gonna put the same amount of time then that 1257 01:07:32.239 --> 01:07:34.679 he had let me reset the clock. You'll have four 1258 01:07:34.719 --> 01:07:37.559 minutes since he had four. Go ahead, Timothy, give us 1259 01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:39.239 your closing statement on the topic. 1260 01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:43.519 Here on the simplicity, you see the devastation to the 1261 01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:48.360 EO position when you look at scripture on the beatific vision. 1262 01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:51.719 In First John, it says we shall see Him as 1263 01:07:51.800 --> 01:07:55.440 he is. That would mean the divine essence at the 1264 01:07:55.519 --> 01:07:59.119 end of time. Blessed are the pure in heart. Or 1265 01:07:59.159 --> 01:08:02.360 they shall see God. This is Matthew chapter five, verse eight. 1266 01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:05.199 They shall see God, not the works of God or 1267 01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:09.159 the energeias of God. They will not see his energies. 1268 01:08:09.159 --> 01:08:11.679 They will see God himself. This is the problem. This 1269 01:08:11.719 --> 01:08:14.760 is the teleology of the good life. This is what 1270 01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:17.640 we're promised. And they say otherwise, they say we will 1271 01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:20.439 never see God in his essence. All we can ever 1272 01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:22.840 see are the energaias of God's same as what we 1273 01:08:22.880 --> 01:08:28.600 see on earth. It's absurd. If we never see God's essence, 1274 01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:31.279 we never reach full union with him. Also, so this 1275 01:08:31.399 --> 01:08:35.800 is really really important to draw. It's it's absolutely theologically 1276 01:08:35.800 --> 01:08:43.079 and teleologically devastating, and it's a fatalistic worldview. Very very important. Now, Glory. 1277 01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:45.680 When Jay was asking me about glory, and he's spit 1278 01:08:45.800 --> 01:08:50.680 firing questions at me. Glory is a created reality. The 1279 01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:52.960 way we experience it, the way we're talking about it, 1280 01:08:53.000 --> 01:08:57.079 the way it's predicated. Analogically, it's glory in our soul, 1281 01:08:57.159 --> 01:09:03.279 in our intellects, and our participation in it is created 1282 01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:08.520 and therefore the way we interact with God's glory. Again, 1283 01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:12.239 this is a virtual distinction because it involves the way 1284 01:09:12.279 --> 01:09:16.159 that we receive it in interact with it in the 1285 01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:20.479 mode of the receiver us creatures. It's of course has 1286 01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:23.479 to be created. A created glory has to interact with 1287 01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.119 creatures as it exists in God, it is uncreated. But 1288 01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:31.560 we don't know glory from the side of God because 1289 01:09:31.640 --> 01:09:34.960 glory from the side of God remains uncreated until the 1290 01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:37.800 be a typic vision. The most important thing he was 1291 01:09:37.840 --> 01:09:42.359 asking about the Theophanes and Jay's claim. He'll say, the 1292 01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:47.199 Theophanes are this easy, easy proof that passive potency can 1293 01:09:47.239 --> 01:09:49.880 exist in God, which is a non sequitur. It's absurd, 1294 01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:53.439 says there's a distinction between the inner, unrevealed aspect of God, 1295 01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:56.439 his essence, and what he reveals and manifests us his 1296 01:09:56.520 --> 01:10:01.640 divine personal energies. A Theophany. Like I said before, it's 1297 01:10:01.640 --> 01:10:06.920 a it's a created sign or instrument of uncreated presence. 1298 01:10:08.039 --> 01:10:12.359 The change is in the medium, not in God himself. 1299 01:10:12.479 --> 01:10:15.560 So this does not even begin to prove that God 1300 01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:19.720 is not pure actor, that God can change. Particularly, I 1301 01:10:19.760 --> 01:10:22.800 thought Jay was going to come on this first segment 1302 01:10:22.840 --> 01:10:26.319 and distinguish, well, God can change because he has active power, 1303 01:10:26.439 --> 01:10:29.439 active potensia. Well that's true, but he's the unmoved mover. 1304 01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:31.800 He can he can act on things without them being 1305 01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:34.920 acted on him. But he he came on and defended 1306 01:10:36.399 --> 01:10:40.119 God as passive potency. And this just doesn't begin to 1307 01:10:40.159 --> 01:10:47.319 be shown by the fact that the Theophanes have taken 1308 01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:54.319 place as signs and instruments that are created. Worship is 1309 01:10:54.359 --> 01:11:00.079 something funny. Worship belongs to the divine nature alone. This 1310 01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:04.479 is from Second Constantinople. But not if we take Jay 1311 01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:08.840 at his word, worship Second Constantinople belongs to the divine 1312 01:11:09.439 --> 01:11:15.159 nature alone. So that that's really important, I mean the most. 1313 01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:18.840 The heart of this issue is whether or not passive 1314 01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:23.199 potencies can be allowed within God. And this would simply 1315 01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:28.039 destroy all of classical theism. God would change, He wouldn't 1316 01:11:28.039 --> 01:11:31.279 be immutable. He wouldn't be eternal. This is anathematized it, 1317 01:11:31.319 --> 01:11:33.199 and I see it. If God had passive potency, he 1318 01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:36.960 wouldn't be simply wouldn't be perfect. I mean, I'm restating 1319 01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:39.760 what I said in opening because it's so very basic 1320 01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:42.680 and it's so devastating to what we believe about God. 1321 01:11:42.800 --> 01:11:44.640 If we believe that God, if we were to allow 1322 01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:46.960 ourselves to believe that God had passive post I still 1323 01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:47.479 have a minute. 1324 01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:49.159 Yeah, if you want to want to have the minute 1325 01:11:49.159 --> 01:11:51.079 on the clock right now, all right, give me one moment. 1326 01:11:51.159 --> 01:11:53.199 Let me reset the clock. Give you a minute and 1327 01:11:53.439 --> 01:11:54.159 go ahead and take that. 1328 01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:56.520 Yeah, I just want to address in this minute the 1329 01:11:56.600 --> 01:11:59.199 fact that I mean, he doesn't seem to be aware 1330 01:11:59.239 --> 01:12:04.960 that the Theophanes are called God, they're given the name Yahweh, 1331 01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:09.560 they're worshiped, and they're pre signifiers of the incarnation. So 1332 01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:14.159 he's literally saying that these signs and symbols can be worshiped. 1333 01:12:14.199 --> 01:12:16.319 So he believes that you can worship creatures. Then he 1334 01:12:16.359 --> 01:12:18.640 turns around and contradicts himself because he says that only 1335 01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:20.039 divine nature can be worshiped. 1336 01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:22.600 The triad is worshiped. 1337 01:12:22.600 --> 01:12:25.359 And it doesn't say only the divine nature is worshiped, 1338 01:12:25.439 --> 01:12:28.399 but we worship God in Triad. That's the actual definition 1339 01:12:28.439 --> 01:12:31.119 of the council doesn't say only divine nature. So I 1340 01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:34.159 think it's just kind of insane to me that that, 1341 01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:39.880 like how far removed from divine revelation that position actually is. 1342 01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:41.159 And again, as I said in. 1343 01:12:41.079 --> 01:12:44.560 Philippians too, if God is a being that is reducible 1344 01:12:44.600 --> 01:12:48.359 to pure act, then it's not possible for the self 1345 01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:53.640 emptying or the limiting to occur in the incarnation when 1346 01:12:53.680 --> 01:12:56.119 the Sun, according to Filippians to in the Canosis passage 1347 01:12:56.399 --> 01:12:59.800 willfully limits himself. A being that is pure act according 1348 01:12:59.800 --> 01:13:04.960 to definition reducibly would undergo change via Philippians too, And 1349 01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:05.840 we don't believe. 1350 01:13:05.560 --> 01:13:08.399 That can have a minitary respondent. No where you're you're 1351 01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:09.159 over on that one. 1352 01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:11.840 You can't actually still in the other topics if you'd 1353 01:13:11.920 --> 01:13:13.600 like to, you can always address technically if you like 1354 01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:15.439 to take a little bit of time to bring back 1355 01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:16.960 some points, I do want to mind you, guys, we're 1356 01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:18.680 gonna take a break here in a second, so that 1357 01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:21.439 if you're dis joining right now in the live stream, 1358 01:13:21.640 --> 01:13:23.359 we are in the middle of debating some of the 1359 01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:27.159 core dogmas theological concepts, depending on where you come from 1360 01:13:27.159 --> 01:13:29.760 and what wording you like to use. Of Orthodoxy and 1361 01:13:29.840 --> 01:13:32.720 Catholicism in terms of the Church itself, not the Orthodoxy 1362 01:13:32.880 --> 01:13:35.479 of religion, Orthodoxy of faith, or the Gospel, but of 1363 01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:38.359 the approach and of the Church. That being said, if 1364 01:13:38.359 --> 01:13:40.840 you guys are sending super chats, I just want to 1365 01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:42.000 remind you guys a couple of things. We have a 1366 01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:45.239 few more people in here. Mista also said that it's 1367 01:13:45.239 --> 01:13:47.000 a little bit too much beyond him. We also have 1368 01:13:47.039 --> 01:13:51.239 some win Titus, win Hadrian. We also have a l 1369 01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:54.439 chemist said, depending on Gordon's performance, tonight might be Jay's 1370 01:13:54.479 --> 01:13:59.039 third conversion to Catholicism and second denunciation of the Orthodox Church. 1371 01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:01.960 Curious to know which way the wind swayed him tonight. 1372 01:14:02.720 --> 01:14:08.119 Uh, Sigilists said Orthodox equals divine person, Catholic equals divine robot. 1373 01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:11.680 We also have a servant, said Hard passed on trusting 1374 01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:15.520 a church founded on forgeries. I'm not sure that's in Australia, 1375 01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:18.039 and shout out to my Aussies. I just got banned 1376 01:14:18.079 --> 01:14:21.159 from Australia. Unfortunately, I don't even know what the currency 1377 01:14:21.199 --> 01:14:24.880 AARs is, but uh, buddy, Pep nine seven three said 1378 01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:27.000 tim has been forsake and everyone got to donate to 1379 01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:29.920 the stream where y'all are Yukubians. 1380 01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:32.600 Really, we're all did you cube made us? 1381 01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:35.079 I remember you said that, right, Yeah, you're all creating 1382 01:14:35.079 --> 01:14:35.920 the image of a cube. 1383 01:14:36.039 --> 01:14:39.760 You're learning the right religion now, yeah, finally yeah, And. 1384 01:14:39.920 --> 01:14:43.000 And a grand canon is a portal, that's what they say. Uh, 1385 01:14:43.279 --> 01:14:46.680 Techno Ox said, let's go, not one step back. 1386 01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:48.159 There you go. 1387 01:14:48.279 --> 01:14:50.239 We also have a few more that we'll read in 1388 01:14:50.279 --> 01:14:52.720 a moment, but let's join and let's jump into a 1389 01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:54.760 quick break. We're taking a couple of minute break here, 1390 01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:57.760 just a reset. They're gonna reset their books, their notes, 1391 01:14:57.920 --> 01:14:59.279 and we're gonna come back just to make sure I 1392 01:14:59.319 --> 01:15:00.680 have it correct by the from you so that we 1393 01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:02.159 don't make them no mistake. 1394 01:15:02.239 --> 01:15:02.479 Again. 1395 01:15:03.319 --> 01:15:06.520 For the next topic that you wanted to cover, we 1396 01:15:06.640 --> 01:15:10.720 are able to get into the Christ did not establish 1397 01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:11.960 the papacy? Or did you want to go to the 1398 01:15:11.960 --> 01:15:14.960 Holy Spirit? Does not have a do you want to 1399 01:15:14.960 --> 01:15:15.600 go to the Holy Spirit? 1400 01:15:15.720 --> 01:15:19.039 Question? Was it Philly? What do you want? He went first? 1401 01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:21.600 You can pick the next topic. We'll be going first. 1402 01:15:21.640 --> 01:15:23.960 I'm fine with either, but but Philly oquay would be 1403 01:15:24.119 --> 01:15:25.119 would have more of them. 1404 01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:27.199 All right, let's go there, all right, So we'll be 1405 01:15:27.239 --> 01:15:29.560 back talking about that just a moment, and we'll be 1406 01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:33.600 starting opening statements with Timothy Gordon representing Catholicism. We'll see 1407 01:15:33.640 --> 01:15:34.800 just a few moments, take a break, and we'll be 1408 01:15:34.880 --> 01:15:37.359 right back in the Rumble section. That justays imagine Allied 1409 01:15:37.399 --> 01:15:39.159 to trying to process all this when he couldn't even 1410 01:15:39.159 --> 01:15:42.680 get the sound started to start his live stream. 1411 01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:43.840 Absolutely fantastic. 1412 01:15:44.039 --> 01:15:47.159 We got a great debate going on today directly between 1413 01:15:47.319 --> 01:15:49.880 Jay Dyer and Timothy Gordon. If you're just joining Live today, 1414 01:15:49.880 --> 01:15:54.439 we are live on rumble x, Facebook and on YouTube. 1415 01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:57.000 We can also find us on Instagram and Elijah Schaeffer 1416 01:15:57.359 --> 01:16:00.680 dot locals dot com makes it if you want to 1417 01:16:00.680 --> 01:16:01.279 know where we've been. 1418 01:16:01.359 --> 01:16:02.199 I've been very sick. 1419 01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:04.960 I was in El Salvador shooting content and then I 1420 01:16:05.039 --> 01:16:07.479 end up picking up a stomach bug from a taco stand. 1421 01:16:07.920 --> 01:16:10.960 I love the country, but don't eat pork from strangers 1422 01:16:11.000 --> 01:16:12.079 in developing countries. 1423 01:16:12.119 --> 01:16:14.399 That's just a little a little tip for tat there. 1424 01:16:15.000 --> 01:16:17.119 We're gonna be jumping into our next topic today on 1425 01:16:17.199 --> 01:16:22.479 the overarching discussion of orthodox is in the Church itself 1426 01:16:22.760 --> 01:16:26.000 and Catholicism as in the church and the dogma. If 1427 01:16:26.039 --> 01:16:27.800 you're joining me today on YouTube, make sure that you 1428 01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:30.359 like the video right now and subscribe to We are 1429 01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:32.960 a brand news show, still working out the kinks, just 1430 01:16:33.000 --> 01:16:36.920 a couple months old, and absolutely fantastic and excited because 1431 01:16:36.920 --> 01:16:41.079 we are a network riftv dot com not influenced by 1432 01:16:41.359 --> 01:16:45.039 outside countries like Israel, and that's our claim to fame 1433 01:16:45.079 --> 01:16:46.439 here and so we really appreciate that. 1434 01:16:47.079 --> 01:16:52.319 All right, We're gonna jump into the topic here, specifically 1435 01:16:52.359 --> 01:16:57.079 about the Holy Spirit, and you know, we are asking ourselves, 1436 01:16:57.079 --> 01:16:59.640 does it or does it not hyposthetically proceed from the sun. 1437 01:17:00.039 --> 01:17:02.399 So this is a very complex topic. 1438 01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:04.680 It's going to get intricate, it is going to get 1439 01:17:04.720 --> 01:17:09.680 absolutely incredibly in many ways incredibly technical, and so again 1440 01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:13.760 I encourage you guys to please have your your notes 1441 01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:16.680 out and be ready to discuss. Our guests are of 1442 01:17:16.800 --> 01:17:20.560 agreed to doing ten minute opening statements and they will 1443 01:17:20.560 --> 01:17:24.199 have a minute bleed if they so choose. We're going 1444 01:17:24.199 --> 01:17:27.640 to start with Timothy Gordon. The time is on the clock. 1445 01:17:28.079 --> 01:17:31.079 You have ten minutes. You can start now. 1446 01:17:33.479 --> 01:17:37.720 So the second question tonight is nothing less than the 1447 01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:41.800 unity of the Trinity. Does the Holy Spirit proceed from 1448 01:17:41.880 --> 01:17:43.880 the Father alone or from both the Father and the 1449 01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:48.079 Son together is one eternal source. This is called the philioquay. 1450 01:17:48.199 --> 01:17:52.119 It means and the Son. The Catholic position is that 1451 01:17:52.199 --> 01:17:55.079 the Holy Spirit proceeds from the person of the Father 1452 01:17:55.359 --> 01:18:02.000 through the person of the Son. Brief historical note, there's 1453 01:18:02.039 --> 01:18:08.680 a semantic dodge that happens with Orthodox The narrative proves 1454 01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:13.680 how absurdly reactive the Orthodox position is against the Catholic position. 1455 01:18:14.039 --> 01:18:17.640 Or early on, there are a couple of thinkers. One 1456 01:18:17.680 --> 01:18:21.439 is named Photius. The other is Michael Ceriularius, who was 1457 01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:26.880 the patriarch during the Schism, who mistakenly thought that the 1458 01:18:26.920 --> 01:18:32.079 Catholic philioque meant a polyarchic generation of the divine essence, 1459 01:18:32.119 --> 01:18:35.159 meaning that both the Father and the Son like generate 1460 01:18:35.239 --> 01:18:39.000 the essence as it comes to the Spirit, which has 1461 01:18:39.039 --> 01:18:41.880 never been the Catholic position. It's the Catholic position has 1462 01:18:41.920 --> 01:18:48.840 always been monarchic. The Father alone generates it through the 1463 01:18:48.840 --> 01:18:53.399 Son it comes to the Holy Spirit. So so together 1464 01:18:53.520 --> 01:18:56.079 these thinkers, who are separated by about two hundred and 1465 01:18:56.079 --> 01:19:01.119 fifty years, Photius and Cerularius together reduced the Orthodox position 1466 01:19:01.199 --> 01:19:03.520 to the view for for a time that the Spirit 1467 01:19:03.720 --> 01:19:10.439 proceeded from the Sun only economically or temporarily. By the 1468 01:19:10.479 --> 01:19:14.039 time they realized their error in interpretation in the late 1469 01:19:14.119 --> 01:19:18.960 thirteenth century, the Eastern Orthodox, they're already committed to schism, 1470 01:19:19.359 --> 01:19:21.520 and so even though they became willing to admit that 1471 01:19:21.560 --> 01:19:25.399 the Spirit proceeded from the Sun eternally and this is 1472 01:19:25.439 --> 01:19:30.359 an eternal relationship, they maintained some linguistic distance from the 1473 01:19:30.399 --> 01:19:34.079 Catholic position, which is called hypostatic procession. It means a 1474 01:19:34.119 --> 01:19:39.399 procession from the person by use of nonsensical language like 1475 01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:43.720 eternal manifestation, which is either a distinction without a difference 1476 01:19:43.960 --> 01:19:47.760 from the Roman Catholic view and we're the same all along, 1477 01:19:47.880 --> 01:19:52.159 or else it's nonsensical here. I'm on this one topic 1478 01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:54.960 of three. I'm very willing to be persuaded, but it 1479 01:19:55.359 --> 01:19:58.159 seems just like a semantic dodge. They don't want to 1480 01:19:58.199 --> 01:20:01.359 have the Catholic view. By the time the Eastern Orthodox 1481 01:20:01.399 --> 01:20:05.079 realized that, Photius in around eight hundred and Ceriularius around 1482 01:20:05.119 --> 01:20:08.239 two hundred and fifty years later, badly misunderstood the philioque 1483 01:20:08.279 --> 01:20:12.239 and created this whole stink they decide. It seems they 1484 01:20:12.279 --> 01:20:15.239 decided to employ the semantic dodge rather than admit the 1485 01:20:15.239 --> 01:20:20.199 air of these two thinkers. So it depends what's being said. 1486 01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:26.119 If the Father alone truly spirates, truly spirates the Spirit, 1487 01:20:26.239 --> 01:20:31.279 then it becomes nonsensical. It would deny that all the 1488 01:20:31.319 --> 01:20:35.119 Father has belongs to the Son, which is a quote 1489 01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:39.279 directly from scripture. From John's Gospel, it severs the eternal 1490 01:20:39.319 --> 01:20:45.079 relation of the Spirit to the Son, which again Jesus says, 1491 01:20:45.119 --> 01:20:49.199 all that the Father has I have. In this sense, 1492 01:20:49.319 --> 01:20:54.800 Scripture strongly supports philioka, which is, the Father gives the 1493 01:20:54.840 --> 01:20:59.119 divine essence to the Holy Spirit through the Son. The 1494 01:20:59.159 --> 01:21:01.840 spirit is called the spirit of the Son in Galatians 1495 01:21:01.920 --> 01:21:05.920 chapter four, verse six. In Romans chapter eight, verse nine, 1496 01:21:06.039 --> 01:21:09.439 Christ breathes the spirit. In John chapter twenty, verse twenty two, 1497 01:21:09.640 --> 01:21:13.960 this is an image of external procession. I think they'll 1498 01:21:13.960 --> 01:21:17.359 say it's strictly economic. But he's breathing the spirit, and 1499 01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:22.239 it's an eternal relation. When Jesus says all that the 1500 01:21:22.279 --> 01:21:27.039 Father has is mine. John chapter sixteen, verse fifteen, nothing 1501 01:21:27.119 --> 01:21:31.520 is excluded from the sun the river of life. In 1502 01:21:32.159 --> 01:21:37.079 the final Book of the Bible Revelation twenty two, verse one, 1503 01:21:37.399 --> 01:21:39.720 the river of life flows from the throne of the 1504 01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:44.399 Father and the Lamb. This has only one possible meaning 1505 01:21:44.600 --> 01:21:49.560 that I can construe most condemningly, and there is a 1506 01:21:49.600 --> 01:21:52.359 lot of equivocal language here. And again I think there's 1507 01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:56.520 the least difference between our two positions of all these 1508 01:21:56.560 --> 01:21:59.880 three topics by far. I would say that the Eastern 1509 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:04.680 Orthodox thinkers, or Eastern thinkers of the first millennium, many 1510 01:22:04.760 --> 01:22:08.600 of them largely support it. Cyril of Alexandria says spirit 1511 01:22:08.720 --> 01:22:11.439 is from God in the Sun and through the Son. 1512 01:22:11.920 --> 01:22:16.439 That's an Eastern thinker. Saint Maximus the Confessor says, outright, 1513 01:22:17.039 --> 01:22:20.520 the Latins are correct. They mean from the Father through 1514 01:22:20.520 --> 01:22:25.520 the Son. Saint Basil and Gregory of Nissa both say 1515 01:22:25.800 --> 01:22:29.039 almost identically, all God's works are from the Father through 1516 01:22:29.039 --> 01:22:33.880 the Son in the spirit. Saint John Damascene gives an 1517 01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:36.239 amazing image for all of it, for anybody out there 1518 01:22:36.239 --> 01:22:38.600 that's trying to think about it. This is an amazing 1519 01:22:38.680 --> 01:22:43.239 image and it captures both the medium and the substance 1520 01:22:43.319 --> 01:22:45.800 of the way that I believe the philioque works. He says, 1521 01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:48.079 the Father is the source the Sun is a river, 1522 01:22:48.359 --> 01:22:52.000 the Holy Spirit is a lake. The spirit quote proceeds 1523 01:22:52.000 --> 01:22:56.520 from the Father and rests in the Sun. Saint Gregory 1524 01:22:56.560 --> 01:23:00.760 of Nissa writes, every operation which extend from God to 1525 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:04.119 creation has its origin from the Father, proceeds through the Son, 1526 01:23:04.199 --> 01:23:07.880 and is perfected in the Holy Spirit. This is very 1527 01:23:07.960 --> 01:23:11.239 very close, very close to our view. None of these views, 1528 01:23:11.279 --> 01:23:14.239 because of the abstrusity of the topic, are going to 1529 01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:17.119 be identical, particularly in the Early Church, but it's very 1530 01:23:17.119 --> 01:23:21.560 close to what we're saying. A hypostatic procession, a procession 1531 01:23:22.319 --> 01:23:25.479 of the Father through the person of the Son to 1532 01:23:25.560 --> 01:23:28.039 the Spirit. But still only the Spirit only gets the 1533 01:23:28.039 --> 01:23:31.960 divine essence from one source. That source is the Father 1534 01:23:32.239 --> 01:23:36.479 alone through through Jesus. As a reminder, Avenatia says, the 1535 01:23:36.479 --> 01:23:39.079 Holy Spirit has to the Son the same proper relation 1536 01:23:39.319 --> 01:23:42.039 as we have known the Son to have to the Father. 1537 01:23:42.159 --> 01:23:46.960 So a nice relation of proportion. The Holy Spirit is 1538 01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:48.399 to the Son as the Son is to the Father. 1539 01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:51.359 Gregory and Azienzas said, if there ever was a time 1540 01:23:51.399 --> 01:23:53.600 that the Father was not the Son was not. If 1541 01:23:53.640 --> 01:23:55.279 ever there was a time when the Sun was not, 1542 01:23:55.439 --> 01:24:00.880 then the Holy Spirit was not showing eternality through temporality, 1543 01:24:01.239 --> 01:24:05.720 and Saint Epiphanius of Salamus says, the Spirit is from 1544 01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:08.159 the Father indeed, but he is not without the Son. 1545 01:24:08.319 --> 01:24:10.000 For if the spirit is of the Father, he is 1546 01:24:10.000 --> 01:24:12.520 also of the Son. For the Son says he will 1547 01:24:12.560 --> 01:24:19.920 receive from me. Ecumenical councils support this. It was not 1548 01:24:20.079 --> 01:24:23.039 crystal clear until the fourth latter in council. The Spirit 1549 01:24:23.079 --> 01:24:27.960 receives equally from both leons two, which takes place supposed 1550 01:24:27.960 --> 01:24:30.239 to be the Reunion Council, the first Reunion Council in 1551 01:24:30.239 --> 01:24:32.880 twelve seventy four, from the Father and the Son, as 1552 01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:37.640 from one principle one spiration. There's equivocation on whether or 1553 01:24:37.720 --> 01:24:43.239 not there's one principle at times there's just one principle, 1554 01:24:43.319 --> 01:24:47.880 one spiration through the Son. Florence in fourteen thirty nine, 1555 01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:51.640 which actually was the Reunion Council. The Catholic Church and 1556 01:24:51.680 --> 01:24:57.600 the Orthodox Church did unify at the Florence Council, where 1557 01:24:58.159 --> 01:25:01.399 the Orthodox position thirty one the thirty three delegates said, 1558 01:25:01.720 --> 01:25:06.960 you are right on phillyoquay and on the papacy says 1559 01:25:07.039 --> 01:25:13.039 spirit eternally from both one principal one spiration. Now scripturally, 1560 01:25:13.560 --> 01:25:16.159 the spirit is sent by both the Father and the 1561 01:25:16.199 --> 01:25:20.800 Son in John chapter fourteen, verse twenty six and in 1562 01:25:21.279 --> 01:25:27.520 John chapter sixteen, verse seven. Logically speaking, this holds if 1563 01:25:27.520 --> 01:25:31.199 the son cannot spirate, he is less than the Father, 1564 01:25:31.439 --> 01:25:38.199 which is a semi arianist error. Unity requires it as well. 1565 01:25:38.479 --> 01:25:42.840 Phillioquay preserves the Trinity's unity, denying it divides the Father 1566 01:25:43.119 --> 01:25:47.840 and the Son. So I'd say this that you have 1567 01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:50.479 to take this historical look at the Phillyoquay one because 1568 01:25:50.479 --> 01:25:54.840 it's so dense, but also because the historical account is 1569 01:25:55.239 --> 01:25:59.119 really really important. It seems that by the time the 1570 01:25:59.279 --> 01:26:03.479 Orthodox real we weren't we Catholics did not the Latins 1571 01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:06.159 didn't have the position on the filioqua that they were 1572 01:26:06.159 --> 01:26:10.199 attributing to us. They did not want to admit that 1573 01:26:12.039 --> 01:26:14.960 the position had being correct all along. So until this 1574 01:26:15.039 --> 01:26:19.920 misunderstanding about what Western fathers meant began, the Eastern fathers 1575 01:26:19.960 --> 01:26:23.520 were comfortable with eternal relations between the Spirit and the Sun. 1576 01:26:25.600 --> 01:26:28.880 It's called the Athenation model, after all, and Athenacious is 1577 01:26:28.920 --> 01:26:32.640 an Eastern father. This is the Eastern formulation of the 1578 01:26:32.720 --> 01:26:36.960 hypostatic procession, though they don't use the term hypostatic. In 1579 01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:40.720 the sixth century, the formulation begins getting put into the Western, 1580 01:26:40.840 --> 01:26:45.319 non Roman creeds, which makes the I guess East feel threatened. 1581 01:26:45.479 --> 01:26:48.199 There's a lot of natural tension at the time. In 1582 01:26:48.319 --> 01:26:52.199 eight oh three, Charlemagne enthusiastically adds it to the creed. 1583 01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:56.560 Frankish priests at the time say the creed this way 1584 01:26:56.640 --> 01:26:59.800 in the Holy Land. And then in eight sixty nine, 1585 01:27:00.039 --> 01:27:04.560 this important date, Photius of Constantinople says the creed is heretical. 1586 01:27:04.920 --> 01:27:07.239 He thinks that it means the Holy Spirit's essence in 1587 01:27:07.279 --> 01:27:09.920 the Creed comes from two sources. This is just wrong. 1588 01:27:10.039 --> 01:27:14.079 It's an embarrassment. He thought that the Catholic position was 1589 01:27:14.119 --> 01:27:19.600 one of Polyarchia. And it's probably why we're disagreeing about 1590 01:27:19.600 --> 01:27:25.359 this today is because there's an error mate and a 1591 01:27:25.399 --> 01:27:31.600 misinterpretation of the Catholic position that's factual, with no account 1592 01:27:31.680 --> 01:27:35.279 ever given for it by Photius or his people. He 1593 01:27:35.319 --> 01:27:37.560 thinks it means the Holy Spirit's essence in the creed 1594 01:27:37.560 --> 01:27:40.479 comes from two sources. To repeat for people out there, 1595 01:27:40.520 --> 01:27:43.479 for those whom this is new, Photius says, the spirit 1596 01:27:43.560 --> 01:27:46.600 has no eternal relation with the Son, which is not 1597 01:27:47.039 --> 01:27:51.000 I believe the Orthodox position today even only a historical 1598 01:27:51.479 --> 01:27:54.680 temporal economic relation is what Photius was willing to say 1599 01:27:54.720 --> 01:28:00.640 because he knew he didn't want that Catholic view. Fifty four, 1600 01:28:00.680 --> 01:28:06.119 Michael Cerularius revitalizes Photius is overreacting misunderstanding of the Philly. Okay, 1601 01:28:06.159 --> 01:28:08.199 are we at time? You know we're at time? Okay, 1602 01:28:08.279 --> 01:28:11.640 And I would say that this is a history of 1603 01:28:12.039 --> 01:28:15.399 a misunderstanding without account ever taken. 1604 01:28:15.960 --> 01:28:19.279 All right, going over in the chat you know, remember 1605 01:28:19.319 --> 01:28:22.279 you guys, at any point if you think someone's cooking, 1606 01:28:22.319 --> 01:28:24.119 it's always one in the chat for ja two in 1607 01:28:24.159 --> 01:28:26.079 the chat for ten. We're gonna go over to Jay 1608 01:28:26.119 --> 01:28:29.479 Dier at the Orthodox position on the Philly. Okay, if 1609 01:28:29.520 --> 01:28:31.600 I'm even pronouncing that right, iings to pronounce that differently, 1610 01:28:31.640 --> 01:28:33.079 So sorry for that. 1611 01:28:33.159 --> 01:28:37.600 But go ahead and give us your opening statement. Yeah, 1612 01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:46.600 thank you. Give you a second to set up your 1613 01:28:46.600 --> 01:28:48.399 notes here, and do you wanna do you want to 1614 01:28:48.520 --> 01:28:50.560 a couple of seconds here? Uh? No, I got it. 1615 01:28:50.960 --> 01:28:53.560 Okay, I'll start your timer whenever you're ready. Let me 1616 01:28:53.600 --> 01:28:55.479 know when you're ready to begin or so. 1617 01:28:55.479 --> 01:28:59.399 The Orthodox doctrine is again going to flow out of 1618 01:28:59.399 --> 01:29:02.640 the teaching of the Cappadocians, and particularly Constantinople one, which 1619 01:29:02.680 --> 01:29:05.680 is the second Ecumenical Council. Keep that in mind, because 1620 01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:12.079 second Ecamenical Council was called closed and confirmed outside. 1621 01:29:11.439 --> 01:29:12.680 Of communion with Rome. 1622 01:29:12.720 --> 01:29:15.760 At the time Saint Melidias of Antioch was the presiding bishop. 1623 01:29:15.760 --> 01:29:18.439 He died outside of commune with Rome, and a few 1624 01:29:18.479 --> 01:29:22.279 years later Rome eventually accepts that council as the dogmatic 1625 01:29:22.319 --> 01:29:26.279 definition of the Church, supposedly. I want to before we 1626 01:29:26.319 --> 01:29:28.600 get into this, well, I'll just start here. In the 1627 01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:31.960 Orthodox view, following the Cappadocians, there's a famous dictim of 1628 01:29:31.960 --> 01:29:32.960 Gregor Nazianzus. 1629 01:29:33.039 --> 01:29:34.119 Everything that the Father. 1630 01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:38.199 Has, the son has likewise accept the causality. You'll notice 1631 01:29:38.199 --> 01:29:41.159 that nowhere in that discussion did you hear a clear discussion, 1632 01:29:41.399 --> 01:29:44.479 a clear explanation of what the Father is as the 1633 01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:48.560 sole archade. The Father is the principal fount, the source, 1634 01:29:49.119 --> 01:29:55.439 and the unorigin at beginning point of the triad. Thus, 1635 01:29:55.560 --> 01:29:59.600 his hyposthetic property in Orthodox theology is is precisely to 1636 01:29:59.640 --> 01:30:03.119 be picked out as cause. That's why, if you heard 1637 01:30:03.159 --> 01:30:05.279 in the first part he made the huge mistake of 1638 01:30:05.319 --> 01:30:09.680 calling the Divine Essence a say or autotheos or of 1639 01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:13.079 himself or of itself. It is the Father alone, according 1640 01:30:13.119 --> 01:30:18.079 to the Capitoian and constantin one teaching, that is God 1641 01:30:18.119 --> 01:30:18.840 of himself. 1642 01:30:19.279 --> 01:30:21.319 Why because the Son and the Spirit have. 1643 01:30:21.399 --> 01:30:25.039 Their origin in the Father, in particularly the Father's essence. 1644 01:30:25.279 --> 01:30:27.479 The Son and the Spirit thus do not possess and 1645 01:30:27.560 --> 01:30:31.880 cannot possess, the Father's hypostatic property. And so Tim doesn't 1646 01:30:31.880 --> 01:30:33.960 seem to be aware of what the Creed teaches. When 1647 01:30:33.960 --> 01:30:37.880 the Creed says, I believe in one God, the Divine Essence, 1648 01:30:38.079 --> 01:30:41.439 Oh no, it's actually one God, the Father. Tim appealed 1649 01:30:41.479 --> 01:30:44.239 to monotheism, apparently not being aware of the fact that 1650 01:30:44.279 --> 01:30:48.319 the word monotheism is a sixteen hundreds term. Maybe he's 1651 01:30:48.359 --> 01:30:50.880 not aware of the term that was used explicitly in 1652 01:30:50.920 --> 01:30:52.920 the Creed and amongst all the Church fathers east and 1653 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:56.000 West for many years, and that is the monarchea in 1654 01:30:56.079 --> 01:30:59.159 the Greek. The monarchia of the Father is the beginning 1655 01:30:59.159 --> 01:31:03.399 point of Orthodox Trinitarian theology, particularly Exodus three fourteen, when 1656 01:31:03.479 --> 01:31:06.399 God says, I am from fourteen fifteen, I am that 1657 01:31:06.520 --> 01:31:10.560 I am as Saint Maximus, Saint Grey Palamas says he 1658 01:31:10.640 --> 01:31:12.079 did not say I am essence. 1659 01:31:12.640 --> 01:31:15.119 He said I am as an I am he. 1660 01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:19.000 Thus, the Father is the beginning point of all Trinitarian theology, 1661 01:31:19.079 --> 01:31:23.279 and contrary to Latin metaphysical essentialism, we don't begin our 1662 01:31:23.279 --> 01:31:27.439 Trinitarian theology with the divine essence the Father's hypostatic property, 1663 01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:29.800 since it's what picks him out as the one God, 1664 01:31:29.880 --> 01:31:32.399 as the cause of the source the RK. 1665 01:31:33.000 --> 01:31:35.399 This is the cappadoc in one on one teaching. 1666 01:31:35.479 --> 01:31:39.359 Cannot be shared as the cappuditions noted, whatever is a 1667 01:31:39.439 --> 01:31:43.880 hypostatic property is unique to and individuates that person. Whatever 1668 01:31:44.079 --> 01:31:48.920 is not is common to all three. Otherwise there would 1669 01:31:48.960 --> 01:31:52.600 be some form of subordinationism in the triad if there 1670 01:31:52.600 --> 01:31:55.880 were to be a power and attribute a property that 1671 01:31:55.960 --> 01:31:59.439 two persons have that one lacks. You'll notice when Tim 1672 01:31:59.479 --> 01:32:03.359 gave his explanations, he explicitly affirmed the very thing that 1673 01:32:03.439 --> 01:32:07.159 Photius pointed out. He says, he's a red Photius. It 1674 01:32:07.399 --> 01:32:09.199 doesn't sound like he's actually read it. 1675 01:32:09.239 --> 01:32:09.479 To me. 1676 01:32:09.640 --> 01:32:12.359 I think he's read some Roman Catholic websites that cite it. 1677 01:32:12.560 --> 01:32:14.600 I've read it actually multiple times through us, so I 1678 01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:17.439 know the Mystagaji very well. He actually talks about the 1679 01:32:17.439 --> 01:32:20.439 manifestation of the spirit in the Mystagaji, which Tim says 1680 01:32:20.439 --> 01:32:22.640 they don't talk about They missed this and had to 1681 01:32:22.680 --> 01:32:25.119 make it up later. But wait a minute, Tim said, 1682 01:32:25.279 --> 01:32:29.960 if one cannot spiate or if the he said that, 1683 01:32:30.199 --> 01:32:32.840 if one of them does not spiate, they're less. Thus 1684 01:32:32.880 --> 01:32:35.159 the son has to be able to spirate. Tim, maybe 1685 01:32:35.159 --> 01:32:37.439 you didn't realize that in the In the Mysticgogy, that's 1686 01:32:37.439 --> 01:32:40.880 actually an argument that Photius makes that the spirit doesn't 1687 01:32:40.920 --> 01:32:42.199 aspirate or generate. 1688 01:32:42.600 --> 01:32:46.279 So, by your own argumentation, if the son is not 1689 01:32:46.439 --> 01:32:50.560 equal to the Father because he doesn't spirrate, then the 1690 01:32:50.600 --> 01:32:52.239 spirit has to also spirrate. 1691 01:32:52.359 --> 01:32:55.079 But nobody teaches this. The spirit spir rates or generates 1692 01:32:55.079 --> 01:32:58.720 a person. So by your own argument, you subordinated the spirit, 1693 01:32:58.920 --> 01:33:01.039 which is the very argument this made in the Mystic God, 1694 01:33:01.199 --> 01:33:03.520 which tells me that you didn't actually read the Mystagogy. 1695 01:33:03.640 --> 01:33:05.680 I'm going to quote you again. If one does not 1696 01:33:05.760 --> 01:33:08.680 inspire it, then they're less. That's what you said. I 1697 01:33:08.920 --> 01:33:11.119 hope the son does inspire at east less? Sorry? 1698 01:33:11.239 --> 01:33:14.600 Uhuh so the spirit does he do? No, he doesn't, 1699 01:33:14.600 --> 01:33:17.640 does he? So by that same John's Gospel, he says, 1700 01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:19.439 I have everything the Father has. 1701 01:33:19.359 --> 01:33:23.039 Yeah, except the causality as the Cappadotions and constantin Noble 1702 01:33:23.039 --> 01:33:25.800 One teach. So quoting the scripture, you're quoting the Cappadocians. 1703 01:33:26.319 --> 01:33:26.840 Uh scripture. 1704 01:33:26.840 --> 01:33:29.720 Oh wait a minute, So the concetpt Noble one is 1705 01:33:29.760 --> 01:33:31.920 the dog of the Roman Kelly Church or not, because 1706 01:33:31.960 --> 01:33:34.079 it says you have to follow the Cappadocian teaching all. 1707 01:33:33.960 --> 01:33:35.840 The Father is the sole cause, sole cause. 1708 01:33:36.479 --> 01:33:40.840 Now isn't it interesting that Roman Catholic scholars themselves have discussed, 1709 01:33:40.880 --> 01:33:44.239 by the way, Basil talking about eternal manifestation in Edward 1710 01:33:44.319 --> 01:33:47.079 Kishenski's famous book The Philioka, which is one of the 1711 01:33:47.079 --> 01:33:50.119 more recent historical academic texts on that. Oh but wait 1712 01:33:50.159 --> 01:33:52.520 a minute, did you know it turns out that Sishansky 1713 01:33:52.640 --> 01:33:55.920 actually went from Unionism to Orthodoxy. Why is that, Well, 1714 01:33:55.920 --> 01:33:57.560 he wrote this book about the philio Oka and he 1715 01:33:57.640 --> 01:34:02.239 realized that. Turns out Basil teaches eternal manifestation on page 1716 01:34:02.239 --> 01:34:04.279 thirty nine, which oh you thought that was made up 1717 01:34:04.319 --> 01:34:06.399 in the Middle Ages, even though it's in Saint Basil. 1718 01:34:06.640 --> 01:34:08.720 Oh, but it's also in the Mystagogy in book two. 1719 01:34:09.199 --> 01:34:11.079 So you're acclaiming all. 1720 01:34:10.960 --> 01:34:13.079 Of these things about what the Orthodox position is and 1721 01:34:13.159 --> 01:34:15.239 where it made all these mistakes. You don't have any 1722 01:34:15.279 --> 01:34:18.720 knowledge or familiarity with constantinumble one. And it's mandate that 1723 01:34:18.760 --> 01:34:20.880 you have to follow the capitotion. Teaching on the Father 1724 01:34:20.960 --> 01:34:23.439 is the sole cause. And in fact you give to 1725 01:34:23.560 --> 01:34:26.680 the son the very thing that picks out the Father, 1726 01:34:27.079 --> 01:34:31.600 which thus creates a diad, as Photius. 1727 01:34:31.159 --> 01:34:33.079 Argued in the mystagogy originally. 1728 01:34:33.840 --> 01:34:36.800 Now to come back to this notion of the monarchia again, 1729 01:34:36.920 --> 01:34:40.520 in John fifteen twenty six, Jesus illustrates our position when 1730 01:34:40.520 --> 01:34:43.319 he says, when the helper comes, who I will send 1731 01:34:43.319 --> 01:34:46.640 to you from the Father. That's Economia, the spirit of truth, 1732 01:34:46.640 --> 01:34:50.560 who proceeds from the Father. Procession is explicitly said by 1733 01:34:50.680 --> 01:34:53.920 Jesus to be from the Father. Now Tim likes to say, ah, 1734 01:34:53.960 --> 01:34:55.439 but I can go to Romans, and I can go 1735 01:34:55.479 --> 01:34:59.560 to Galatians four, and I can find Economia. Passage is 1736 01:34:59.560 --> 01:35:02.199 where Jesus sends the Holy Spirit or it's called the 1737 01:35:02.239 --> 01:35:04.279 spirit of the Sun. And I can read that back 1738 01:35:04.359 --> 01:35:11.199 into the eternal trinitarian relations. No, you cannot, And I'll 1739 01:35:11.199 --> 01:35:14.239 give an example. In Isaiah forty eight, we're told that 1740 01:35:14.800 --> 01:35:18.479 the Spirit sends the Son. Is that going to be 1741 01:35:19.079 --> 01:35:21.840 read back into the eternal relations in Isaiah forty eight. 1742 01:35:22.039 --> 01:35:25.199 No, and this is a classic passage that Orthodox. 1743 01:35:24.840 --> 01:35:27.399 Church fathers have cited for centuries to show that you 1744 01:35:27.479 --> 01:35:31.880 cannot arbitrarily say that the economic relations and passages can 1745 01:35:31.920 --> 01:35:35.239 be read into the eternal triad. That's only it only 1746 01:35:35.279 --> 01:35:37.359 takes one example to show why you can't do that. 1747 01:35:39.920 --> 01:35:45.479 Thomas Aquinas said persons are relations or persona at relatio. No, 1748 01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:49.119 a person is not a relation. A person is a subject. 1749 01:35:49.439 --> 01:35:53.600 And this is precisely why his essentialist trinitarian theology goes wrong. 1750 01:35:54.119 --> 01:35:56.960 You don't begin our trinitarian theology with the divine essence, 1751 01:35:57.239 --> 01:35:59.640 but rather with the person of the Father. And that's 1752 01:35:59.640 --> 01:36:02.800 what the Orthodox Church fathers teach. That's why we continue 1753 01:36:02.840 --> 01:36:05.760 to uphold the Father as the soul arcade. 1754 01:36:06.039 --> 01:36:08.119 Now beyond that, how much, how to have you have? 1755 01:36:08.359 --> 01:36:08.800 Three minutes? 1756 01:36:08.840 --> 01:36:12.760 Okay, beyond that, I want to talk about his quotation 1757 01:36:12.840 --> 01:36:14.199 which surprised me. 1758 01:36:15.479 --> 01:36:18.359 He cited to Gregor of Nissa, and I don't think. 1759 01:36:18.239 --> 01:36:20.119 He even understood what he was citing, because again he's 1760 01:36:20.119 --> 01:36:23.680 pulling from Quote Minds, where he said that every operation 1761 01:36:23.880 --> 01:36:25.479 is from the Father through the Son and in the 1762 01:36:25.479 --> 01:36:27.520 Holy spirit. He is apparently not aware that this is 1763 01:36:27.560 --> 01:36:30.720 the Basilian dictum that every Orthodox person knows very clearly 1764 01:36:30.760 --> 01:36:34.399 from the liturgy, which is about the movement of the energies. 1765 01:36:34.560 --> 01:36:37.000 If you'd actually read Nissa in that section, you would 1766 01:36:37.000 --> 01:36:41.279 know that he's talking about the energetic procession, which is 1767 01:36:41.319 --> 01:36:44.119 the same thing as energetic manifestation. 1768 01:36:44.720 --> 01:36:46.560 But you didn't know that. You just saw a quote 1769 01:36:46.600 --> 01:36:46.960 mind that. 1770 01:36:46.920 --> 01:36:49.960 You thought would help to prove philioak way, when it's 1771 01:36:50.039 --> 01:36:52.720 actually the opposite of philiokuay. So I'm glad that you 1772 01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:58.119 cited this, because energetic manifestation or energetic procession is very 1773 01:36:58.119 --> 01:36:59.359 crucial to our doctrine. 1774 01:36:59.439 --> 01:37:00.880 The reason that we don't. 1775 01:37:00.600 --> 01:37:04.760 Believe in the Latin definition is precisely because they don't 1776 01:37:04.840 --> 01:37:09.720 understand that the movement of the energies is necessarily connected 1777 01:37:09.760 --> 01:37:13.680 to rejecting the person of the son as a spirator 1778 01:37:13.720 --> 01:37:14.319 of the spirit. 1779 01:37:14.920 --> 01:37:16.560 So no, he's only. 1780 01:37:16.359 --> 01:37:18.279 Shown that he didn't understand any of what he read, 1781 01:37:18.479 --> 01:37:21.319 if he even read it. Furthermore, the letter to Marhinus 1782 01:37:21.359 --> 01:37:23.840 that he quoted doesn't say the Latins are correct what 1783 01:37:23.840 --> 01:37:26.399 Maximus says, and the letter to Marhus is that at 1784 01:37:26.399 --> 01:37:29.159 this point it's unclear what they mean. We ought to 1785 01:37:29.279 --> 01:37:32.039 just leave it up to an open question, and it's 1786 01:37:32.039 --> 01:37:35.079 not solved until twelve to seventy four of the Council Lions. 1787 01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:38.119 So this happens many centuries later, and we would agree 1788 01:37:38.159 --> 01:37:40.800 that at that time it was not exactly clear because 1789 01:37:40.840 --> 01:37:43.319 if you read Saint Hilary Portier, guess what he doesn't 1790 01:37:43.359 --> 01:37:46.199 teach philioque, as Sushenski admits, he teaches that the father 1791 01:37:46.319 --> 01:37:49.119 is the soul monarchia in the godhead. All that the 1792 01:37:49.159 --> 01:37:52.239 father has belongs to the son is correct, except not 1793 01:37:52.880 --> 01:37:56.760 paternity or causality. So it is not the case exclusively 1794 01:37:56.800 --> 01:37:58.800 that all that the father has belongs to the son. 1795 01:37:59.199 --> 01:38:02.159 And anybody who knows orthoxiology would know that there's no 1796 01:38:02.199 --> 01:38:07.039 semantic dodge. As we said, Toodius doesn't teach anything different. 1797 01:38:07.039 --> 01:38:09.319 In fact, in eternal manifestation, if you'd read some of 1798 01:38:09.359 --> 01:38:18.439 this from people on our side, is found in the Cappadocians. Yeah, 1799 01:38:18.479 --> 01:38:19.680 I'll go ahead and just stop. 1800 01:38:19.399 --> 01:38:22.720 With that, all right, You have an additional forty five seconds. 1801 01:38:22.720 --> 01:38:25.520 You can add it to any one of your positions. 1802 01:38:25.920 --> 01:38:27.720 As we're talking about. Well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Okay, 1803 01:38:27.800 --> 01:38:28.640 you want to have this second. 1804 01:38:28.640 --> 01:38:30.680 Okay, go ahead, you have forty five seconds left. Okay. 1805 01:38:31.159 --> 01:38:36.600 So where do we get the idea that this both 1806 01:38:36.800 --> 01:38:40.560 essence energy teaching which is directly connected to the person 1807 01:38:40.560 --> 01:38:43.680 of the Father as the sole monarchia in the Godhead. Notice, 1808 01:38:43.920 --> 01:38:48.199 the Cappadocians don't teach monotheism. They never talk about monotheism, 1809 01:38:48.760 --> 01:38:50.359 if in anyone and by the way I sent all 1810 01:38:50.359 --> 01:38:52.279 this information to him, I told him to listen to 1811 01:38:52.319 --> 01:38:55.680 doctor bro Bo Brandtson's lectures on the monarchy of the Father, 1812 01:38:55.680 --> 01:38:58.479 because he would have been able to see that in 1813 01:38:58.640 --> 01:39:00.640 on the Holy Spirit of Saint Basil, Letter thirty eight 1814 01:39:00.640 --> 01:39:04.720 to Saint Basil and Nissa against Eunomius, by both Basil 1815 01:39:04.760 --> 01:39:08.800 and against Unomius Nisa theological orations, particularly Ration twenty five, 1816 01:39:09.760 --> 01:39:11.960 we have in those statements and as well as the 1817 01:39:11.960 --> 01:39:14.600 decree of Constantinople one, that you must follow the Cappadocian 1818 01:39:14.720 --> 01:39:17.960 view that the One God is the Father. There is 1819 01:39:18.000 --> 01:39:21.359 no identification of the One God as the Essence as 1820 01:39:21.439 --> 01:39:25.199 is taught in Augustinian theology. It just so happens that 1821 01:39:25.279 --> 01:39:28.239 in Tim's mind, in the Roman Catholic mind, all the 1822 01:39:28.239 --> 01:39:32.960 world accepted Augustinian theology is trinitarian, but they're totally ignorant 1823 01:39:33.000 --> 01:39:36.760 of constantinople One's Cappadocian theology. And guess what, Augustine's not 1824 01:39:36.840 --> 01:39:39.680 taught theology is not taught a constantineble one. 1825 01:39:39.880 --> 01:39:42.399 All right, I would like to hear one's in the chat. 1826 01:39:42.399 --> 01:39:44.399 If you think for the opening statement one's the chat, 1827 01:39:44.680 --> 01:39:46.079 do you feel like there was a stronger or I 1828 01:39:46.079 --> 01:39:49.439 shouldn't say feel Do you confidently know before your family 1829 01:39:49.479 --> 01:39:51.880 and God that Jay Dire had a stronger argument? And 1830 01:39:51.920 --> 01:39:54.600 two do you confidently know between your family and God 1831 01:39:55.079 --> 01:39:57.760 that Timothy Gordon had a stronger argument? As you're writing 1832 01:39:57.760 --> 01:40:01.359 that down, let's go ahead and we will jump in 1833 01:40:01.359 --> 01:40:04.720 to our rebuttals. Are you prepared and ready to uh 1834 01:40:04.880 --> 01:40:07.279 to rebuttal? All right, Timothy, I'm gonna go ahead and 1835 01:40:07.279 --> 01:40:10.000 reset the clock. You're going to have five minutes. Give 1836 01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:13.399 me one moment here to adjust and set the clock. 1837 01:40:13.840 --> 01:40:15.680 All right, If you're ready, your time starts now. 1838 01:40:16.319 --> 01:40:21.239 Okay, Uh. Constantinople One wasn't outside of communion. Jay misspoke there. 1839 01:40:21.359 --> 01:40:25.039 Malicius was in communion, so it was an in communion 1840 01:40:25.199 --> 01:40:27.840 council unless I misheard Je you said it was outside 1841 01:40:27.840 --> 01:40:32.800 of communion a source on that. The father. Also, the 1842 01:40:32.840 --> 01:40:36.920 father is the only auto theos. Well, malicious was in communion. 1843 01:40:36.960 --> 01:40:41.399 It's a communion council. Uh, people check, I don't want 1844 01:40:41.399 --> 01:40:45.000 to waste my time. The father is the only auto theos. 1845 01:40:45.159 --> 01:40:47.399 The ark is the father. Now this is this is 1846 01:40:47.479 --> 01:40:50.760 my my soul time here, check it, google it. Uh. 1847 01:40:51.199 --> 01:40:54.960 The father is the only auto theos is basic constantinople 1848 01:40:54.960 --> 01:40:58.680 one was before before out of communion. Have you read Basil. 1849 01:40:58.680 --> 01:41:01.600 We're talking about Malaysia. Jay, let's ask some questions during 1850 01:41:01.880 --> 01:41:04.920 during during this first sex faults. So the father, the 1851 01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:07.920 father is the only auto theos. This is absolutely affirmed 1852 01:41:08.000 --> 01:41:11.439 by Catholic theology. One of Jay's tricks that everyone everyone 1853 01:41:11.520 --> 01:41:13.439 has to look out for is he'll just say, well, 1854 01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:16.359 this is Cappadocia. Have you read Cappadocian theology. That well, 1855 01:41:16.399 --> 01:41:21.119 according to Catholic theology, the father is the only auto theos. 1856 01:41:21.520 --> 01:41:25.279 According to Phillyoquay, father is the only auto theos. The 1857 01:41:25.520 --> 01:41:29.560 ark is the fathers according to Catholic theology. According to 1858 01:41:29.600 --> 01:41:33.039 the Phillyoquay the ark is the father's Let me say that, 1859 01:41:33.520 --> 01:41:38.479 and it's not subordination to say Philly Oquay because they're 1860 01:41:38.560 --> 01:41:42.560 all the essence, and because of the relations of opposition 1861 01:41:42.760 --> 01:41:47.119 between the three persons of the Trinity, they're all the essence, 1862 01:41:47.600 --> 01:41:51.720 and because of passive spiration of the Holy Spirit. Now, 1863 01:41:52.279 --> 01:41:55.039 you can quibble with scripture if you want. When Jesus 1864 01:41:55.039 --> 01:41:59.079 says in Gone John's Gospel that all the Father has 1865 01:41:59.199 --> 01:42:02.119 I have as well, evidently Jay didn't read that all 1866 01:42:02.199 --> 01:42:05.359 the Father has I have as well, and he's saying 1867 01:42:05.399 --> 01:42:09.319 that it's subordinationism for me to read that scripture and 1868 01:42:09.359 --> 01:42:13.079 to say, Okay, two of the persons can have active 1869 01:42:13.119 --> 01:42:16.079 spiration and one of the persons, the Holy Spirit, can 1870 01:42:16.119 --> 01:42:19.640 have something called passive spiration. But that's the fact. The 1871 01:42:19.640 --> 01:42:23.720 Father is the Autotheos, that's the ARKA. Retards in Chad 1872 01:42:23.720 --> 01:42:27.239 are probably saying something like, oh this is this is Orthodox. No, 1873 01:42:27.439 --> 01:42:30.119 this is Catholic. This is Catholic as well. Of course 1874 01:42:30.159 --> 01:42:33.199 the ark is the Father's. For the retards out there, 1875 01:42:33.279 --> 01:42:37.640 only the divine, the Divine Essence only comes in an 1876 01:42:37.760 --> 01:42:42.600 ungenerated way to the Father. Now, the Son is the 1877 01:42:42.600 --> 01:42:45.760 only begotten. He gets it from the Father. So we'll 1878 01:42:45.760 --> 01:42:50.000 say it again, the Holy Spirit gets it from the source, 1879 01:42:50.079 --> 01:42:54.399 from the ark of the fathers through the Son. This 1880 01:42:54.520 --> 01:42:59.159 is not subordinationism. There's spiration happening actively from the Father 1881 01:42:59.239 --> 01:43:02.920 and the Son and the Spirit. Now I wouldn't be 1882 01:43:03.039 --> 01:43:05.359 making this bold claim, and neither would the Roman Catholic 1883 01:43:05.479 --> 01:43:10.920 Church via filioque, if not for passages where Jesus affirms 1884 01:43:11.319 --> 01:43:16.439 explicitly over against Jadier and any what else he wants 1885 01:43:16.479 --> 01:43:22.279 to sight that everything he has comes from the Father explicitly. 1886 01:43:24.800 --> 01:43:28.159 And so this is Saint Hilary of Poitier concerning the 1887 01:43:28.159 --> 01:43:31.199 Holy Spirit. He is of the Father and the Son 1888 01:43:31.800 --> 01:43:34.760 his sources. I'll say that again. He is of the 1889 01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:38.000 Father and the Son his sources. Or he is not 1890 01:43:38.159 --> 01:43:41.319 without origin. He is from the Father and the Son. 1891 01:43:41.399 --> 01:43:43.399 This is about as explicit as you can be. And 1892 01:43:43.520 --> 01:43:49.439 Jay's saying just because I don't know, he's accuse me 1893 01:43:49.479 --> 01:43:52.600 of quote mining. Let me read it again. The Holy 1894 01:43:52.640 --> 01:43:56.239 Spirit is from the Father and the Son his sources. 1895 01:43:56.239 --> 01:43:59.800 Not to say that the Father is not the only autotheos, 1896 01:43:59.840 --> 01:44:03.560 but the sources still can be the Father with the son. 1897 01:44:03.840 --> 01:44:07.399 Where he's not without origin. He is from the Father 1898 01:44:07.720 --> 01:44:11.359 and the Son. If ever there was a time the 1899 01:44:11.399 --> 01:44:13.479 Father was not, then the son was not. If ever 1900 01:44:13.479 --> 01:44:14.960 there was a time when the Son was not, then 1901 01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:17.239 the Holy Spirit was not. I don't know how this 1902 01:44:17.319 --> 01:44:21.880 is merely an economic relation. This is Gregory Nazianzas, and 1903 01:44:22.359 --> 01:44:26.720 it seems really strange to be talking about nazianzas As 1904 01:44:26.840 --> 01:44:30.399 if this is not some sort of eternal relation drawn 1905 01:44:30.439 --> 01:44:33.119 between the Father and the Son. Tell me where I'm wrong, 1906 01:44:33.840 --> 01:44:35.800 Tell me where I'm wrong, if this is eternal or not. 1907 01:44:40.359 --> 01:44:43.319 When the Helper this is John fifteen, verse twenty six. 1908 01:44:43.359 --> 01:44:45.640 I just want to get this out. When the Helper comes, 1909 01:44:45.720 --> 01:44:48.960 whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit 1910 01:44:49.079 --> 01:44:51.680 of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear 1911 01:44:51.880 --> 01:44:56.199 witness about me. I don't know with regard to Orthodox 1912 01:44:56.239 --> 01:44:59.279 theology what this means, but this is scripture, and it 1913 01:44:59.319 --> 01:45:07.119 is utterly clear. It is the Father, the source, the 1914 01:45:07.199 --> 01:45:12.000 direct spirator, through the Son, another direct spirator sending the 1915 01:45:12.000 --> 01:45:17.840 Holy Spirit. This does not contradict the ark being solely gods, 1916 01:45:17.880 --> 01:45:21.359 the moan arcade of gods. All right, time, all. 1917 01:45:21.399 --> 01:45:23.680 Right, So as we have the rebuttal there, we're gonna 1918 01:45:23.680 --> 01:45:26.239 go ahead and we're gonna move over to Uh, We're 1919 01:45:26.279 --> 01:45:27.479 gonna move over to Jay. 1920 01:45:28.079 --> 01:45:29.399 You're gonna have five minutes on the clock. 1921 01:45:29.479 --> 01:45:31.239 Let's try to keep it tight for the sake of 1922 01:45:31.279 --> 01:45:33.720 the length of the of the debate and. 1923 01:45:33.680 --> 01:45:35.399 Make sure people are able to watch the whole thing. 1924 01:45:35.439 --> 01:45:37.960 So you have five minutes. Are you ready? Just to 1925 01:45:37.960 --> 01:45:39.119 make sure you have your notes in front of you. 1926 01:45:39.840 --> 01:45:43.840 All right, great, all right, Jane, you can begin now. Yeah. 1927 01:45:43.960 --> 01:45:49.680 I mean, I don't think Tim understands half of what 1928 01:45:49.760 --> 01:45:53.359 he's talking about, because if he wanted to pull out 1929 01:45:53.399 --> 01:45:57.000 the Hillary quote. First of all, Shansky admits on that 1930 01:45:57.079 --> 01:46:00.000 section on Hillary that this isn't really a good argue 1931 01:46:00.359 --> 01:46:03.319 for anything to do with the philioquid. For one, Tim 1932 01:46:03.359 --> 01:46:05.159 may not have heard or may not be aware what 1933 01:46:05.239 --> 01:46:09.279 the lions in Florence definition actually is. But he tried 1934 01:46:09.319 --> 01:46:13.880 to pull Hillary to say his sources. Are you aware 1935 01:46:13.920 --> 01:46:16.760 that lions and Florence teach that the father together are 1936 01:46:16.800 --> 01:46:20.680 a single source of spiration? In your view, there's no 1937 01:46:20.920 --> 01:46:23.760 dual sources. It's not the father and the son. So 1938 01:46:24.399 --> 01:46:27.000 either Hillary got it wrong or that's not a text 1939 01:46:27.039 --> 01:46:33.319 that proves eternal hypostatic double procession. The tacks in scripture, 1940 01:46:33.359 --> 01:46:36.479 as I pointed out, don't necessarily prove what he thinks 1941 01:46:36.520 --> 01:46:39.520 they prove. Again, because I pointed out in Isaiah forty eight, 1942 01:46:39.880 --> 01:46:42.560 the text says that the Spirit sent the Son, and 1943 01:46:42.600 --> 01:46:43.920 that's a messianic prophecy. 1944 01:46:44.000 --> 01:46:44.279 Section. 1945 01:46:44.359 --> 01:46:46.840 Nobody believes that the Holy Spirit is the center of 1946 01:46:46.880 --> 01:46:49.800 the Son. If you read that economia back into the 1947 01:46:49.800 --> 01:46:53.319 eternal relations. Again, he didn't address the argument I made 1948 01:46:53.399 --> 01:46:58.159 about the power of generating inspirating. He said that the 1949 01:46:58.199 --> 01:47:02.520 son must have this because because it shows also that 1950 01:47:02.600 --> 01:47:04.800 he's equal to the Father, because he has everything that 1951 01:47:04.840 --> 01:47:07.720 the Father has. Again, he's not realizing that when I'm 1952 01:47:07.760 --> 01:47:10.640 citing the Cappadocians, I'm not just citing church fathers because 1953 01:47:10.960 --> 01:47:15.000 I'm citing them as random opinions. I'm citing what the 1954 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:17.880 decree of constantinople One says, which is that you must 1955 01:47:18.000 --> 01:47:22.760 follow the Cappadocian dictum and the Cappadocian interpretation of the 1956 01:47:22.840 --> 01:47:26.640 Niceno constant of the Politan creed. When the creed from 1957 01:47:26.680 --> 01:47:29.920 that council, which was an edited version of nicea One's creed, 1958 01:47:30.039 --> 01:47:33.239 says I believe in one God, the Father. It is 1959 01:47:33.319 --> 01:47:37.680 identifying it as the Cappadocians all teach the sole source 1960 01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:41.319 or rka or monarchia of the Father. It is not 1961 01:47:41.760 --> 01:47:46.199 the Latin essentialist definitions of Thomas Aquinas and later Roman 1962 01:47:46.239 --> 01:47:48.319 Catholic councils, which, by the way, refutes what he said 1963 01:47:48.600 --> 01:47:50.039 the first time around when he tried to make the 1964 01:47:50.119 --> 01:47:51.880 Church Fathers into aristotomists. 1965 01:47:52.560 --> 01:47:53.239 Again, they're not. 1966 01:47:53.600 --> 01:47:58.880 Furthermore, he said in his opening statement that a sayety 1967 01:47:59.479 --> 01:48:02.920 God is when he was cashing out his divine simplicity 1968 01:48:02.960 --> 01:48:06.439 act as Purist doctrine, a sayety a sayty means self 1969 01:48:06.479 --> 01:48:08.479 existence or of oneself. 1970 01:48:08.800 --> 01:48:10.199 That's what autotheos is. 1971 01:48:10.560 --> 01:48:12.840 So now he's attributing the very thing that he argued 1972 01:48:12.880 --> 01:48:15.359 in his opening statement about the divine essence to the 1973 01:48:15.359 --> 01:48:19.640 person of the Father, showing that he confuses essential properties 1974 01:48:19.800 --> 01:48:23.000 with hyposthetic properties. But what do we expect from people 1975 01:48:23.000 --> 01:48:25.239 who think that relations of opposition is a way to 1976 01:48:25.319 --> 01:48:28.560 cash out something in the triad? Nobody in the Church 1977 01:48:28.640 --> 01:48:31.760 and the Church Fathers teaches a relation of oppositions, Because, 1978 01:48:31.760 --> 01:48:35.199 as east Congar says in his famous essay on sant 1979 01:48:35.199 --> 01:48:39.199 Agustin and the Kappadocians, that's an Augustinian idea that's developed 1980 01:48:39.199 --> 01:48:41.520 in Thomas Aquinas. It doesn't exist in the first thousand 1981 01:48:41.600 --> 01:48:44.119 years of the Church. And again because he actually thinks 1982 01:48:44.119 --> 01:48:48.319 that relations are persons, because that's the tonistic teaching, when no, 1983 01:48:48.760 --> 01:48:52.760 a relation is something that a subject has, right, a 1984 01:48:52.840 --> 01:48:57.680 subject has a relation, A relation is a predicate. Subjects persons. 1985 01:48:57.920 --> 01:49:00.840 He the father, so he doesn't underst and these basic 1986 01:49:00.880 --> 01:49:04.039 distinctions that the Eastern Church fathers make, which he would 1987 01:49:04.079 --> 01:49:05.760 have done a lot better to actually have read these 1988 01:49:05.800 --> 01:49:07.960 Eastern Church fathers or to actually read maybe some of 1989 01:49:08.000 --> 01:49:11.640 the academic texts from his own theologians about the Philioquay, 1990 01:49:11.760 --> 01:49:14.359 admitting that a lot of these quote minds don't actually 1991 01:49:14.399 --> 01:49:17.359 work to prove anything and actually work against his case 1992 01:49:17.479 --> 01:49:21.439 because again he wants to downplay his own church's dogmatic definition, 1993 01:49:21.479 --> 01:49:24.399 and he's patently totally false. I've got scholars here right 1994 01:49:24.439 --> 01:49:26.960 next to me for years have been talking about the 1995 01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:30.920 fact that Constantinople one closed outside of communion with Rome. 1996 01:49:31.359 --> 01:49:34.520 Saint Melidius of Antioch was in schism with Rome. He 1997 01:49:34.560 --> 01:49:37.119 doesn't even know that, and so he just says google it, 1998 01:49:37.159 --> 01:49:41.199 which again shows he's deficient, totally deficient in this area. 1999 01:49:41.359 --> 01:49:44.239 It's the Malician schism is famous. Basil writes about it 2000 01:49:44.239 --> 01:49:46.359 in his letters, and in fact Basil says Rome is 2001 01:49:46.359 --> 01:49:49.199 absolutely worthless. They can contribute nothing to helping the church 2002 01:49:49.199 --> 01:49:51.880 in the East. They're a waste of time. Doesn't sound 2003 01:49:51.920 --> 01:49:54.039 like papal supremacy to me. But what do you expect 2004 01:49:54.079 --> 01:49:56.039 from people who don't know what the Cappadocian's taught. 2005 01:49:56.039 --> 01:49:58.439 They just think that they do, because well, I can 2006 01:49:58.479 --> 01:50:01.960 read it all through Thomas Aquinas. Thomas Aquinas when. 2007 01:50:01.840 --> 01:50:05.520 He argues against the Phillyoque in contra against the errors 2008 01:50:05.520 --> 01:50:06.079 of the Greeks. 2009 01:50:06.399 --> 01:50:11.000 I've got the recently printed book here. Guess what it's like, 2010 01:50:11.079 --> 01:50:13.000 sixty seventy forgeries. 2011 01:50:13.079 --> 01:50:15.520 So shout out to George, our good buddy, and he 2012 01:50:15.720 --> 01:50:19.079 just published the two volume Errors of the Latins text. 2013 01:50:19.439 --> 01:50:22.039 The second volume is all about forgeries, and one of 2014 01:50:22.079 --> 01:50:25.239 those key forgeries is against the errors of the Greeks 2015 01:50:25.239 --> 01:50:29.399 Thomas Aquinas. And it's entirely possible that Aquinas legitimately believe 2016 01:50:29.520 --> 01:50:33.239 that all the sources he was reading were authentic. But 2017 01:50:33.399 --> 01:50:35.720 now we know, and it's now admitted in the scholarship. 2018 01:50:35.720 --> 01:50:38.960 The Vatican admits it as well. I've got the Alexandria document, which, 2019 01:50:39.000 --> 01:50:40.640 by the way, I don't know if Tim ever had 2020 01:50:40.640 --> 01:50:44.840 the time to read his own Vatican statement about the East, 2021 01:50:45.079 --> 01:50:48.199 both in she eighty and here it admits most of 2022 01:50:48.199 --> 01:50:49.600 the positions that I'm arguing for. 2023 01:50:50.279 --> 01:50:53.319 Okay, So, like I said, let's get some ones in 2024 01:50:53.399 --> 01:50:54.800 two's in the chats. I want to read a couple 2025 01:50:54.800 --> 01:50:57.119 of the super chats that we have here as we 2026 01:50:57.119 --> 01:50:59.319 get into the cross examination game, just a second to 2027 01:50:59.359 --> 01:51:01.159 get their question in line of what they want to 2028 01:51:01.159 --> 01:51:04.479 talk about. Reminding you that you know, Buddy pp All 2029 01:51:04.479 --> 01:51:06.479 said Tim has been forsaken. Everyone got to donate to 2030 01:51:06.520 --> 01:51:09.640 the stream, or y'all are Yacubians? Like I mentioned. After that, 2031 01:51:10.159 --> 01:51:13.880 tego Ocho said, let's go. I also have a couple 2032 01:51:13.960 --> 01:51:17.119 of critics late night tweakers. A critic of Tim said 2033 01:51:17.159 --> 01:51:19.079 two dollars said, I feel embarrassed for Tim. 2034 01:51:19.159 --> 01:51:19.319 Now. 2035 01:51:19.359 --> 01:51:23.439 However, however, let's talk. God said, fy all polytheists idols 2036 01:51:23.479 --> 01:51:26.279 are created. Tim might be a polytheist, but others are 2037 01:51:26.319 --> 01:51:30.439 saying Jay Dyer ain't no Yukubian. You're not Yucubian. 2038 01:51:30.520 --> 01:51:33.359 Okay. Servant Nectoria said, Jake, keep it up. 2039 01:51:33.439 --> 01:51:35.319 R CC is a joke. I'm sure that's a Roman 2040 01:51:35.319 --> 01:51:39.720 Catholic church. Maximus said, what I say has nothing to 2041 01:51:39.760 --> 01:51:43.359 do with Jay. Also, we have let's talk. God said 2042 01:51:43.439 --> 01:51:46.800 question for Tim, heaven has created? How can you see 2043 01:51:46.800 --> 01:51:51.079 the divine essence in heaven in the beatific vision aka Creationean. 2044 01:51:51.640 --> 01:51:53.479 I don't think we're gonna answer those questions right now. 2045 01:51:54.359 --> 01:51:57.279 Don Visiu said, this is all retarded, splitting hairs over 2046 01:51:57.319 --> 01:52:01.560 divine theosophy leads no one to Christ. 2047 01:52:02.239 --> 01:52:03.479 We also have real Carlism. 2048 01:52:03.520 --> 01:52:05.199 No matter what you think, who you think is winning, 2049 01:52:05.399 --> 01:52:08.199 We're all better off knowing this conversation is drowning out 2050 01:52:08.279 --> 01:52:15.800 James White's gay lisp. Also, we have machine Santo for 2051 01:52:15.840 --> 01:52:18.239 two dollars, and they said, Jay looking twenty years older, 2052 01:52:18.239 --> 01:52:19.520 but he's defined cooking. 2053 01:52:20.680 --> 01:52:26.199 Okay, Hey is he gay? Ass? Hey it's you know what? Yeah? 2054 01:52:27.079 --> 01:52:30.000 Do trust me, man, I've aged so much. I see myself. 2055 01:52:30.000 --> 01:52:32.079 I've only been doing this for like about a decade now. 2056 01:52:32.319 --> 01:52:34.319 When I first started, I looked like a teenager, like 2057 01:52:34.720 --> 01:52:36.039 you know, look like a nice little kid. 2058 01:52:36.039 --> 01:52:39.560 And now I'm like nearly look dead. Warth thunder Us 2059 01:52:39.600 --> 01:52:40.640 sent thirty dollars. 2060 01:52:40.920 --> 01:52:43.399 Said Tom was talking about potential equivocations in the start, 2061 01:52:43.479 --> 01:52:46.000 yet his arguments hinges on them. He sneaks in quote 2062 01:52:46.039 --> 01:52:49.960 denying actus purists passive potency as well sneaking in ortho 2063 01:52:50.359 --> 01:52:52.920 real distinction scholastic major real distinction. 2064 01:52:53.520 --> 01:52:54.520 We also had a dork. 2065 01:52:54.600 --> 01:52:56.520 Jansen said, please ask mobs to ban anyone in the 2066 01:52:56.600 --> 01:52:58.880 chat who says that we should act more civil in chat. 2067 01:53:00.119 --> 01:53:02.279 Fine, you guys can, guys go to war. And then 2068 01:53:02.560 --> 01:53:03.880 true for once seesaid. 2069 01:53:03.560 --> 01:53:07.399 Tim said, we can't experience any uncreatedness of God as creatures, 2070 01:53:07.399 --> 01:53:10.960 so how does the incarnation work? I'll read two more 2071 01:53:11.000 --> 01:53:14.279 here before we'll move on to the cross examination. Cult 2072 01:53:14.359 --> 01:53:17.640 of Modernism said and quote, we deny the son is 2073 01:53:17.680 --> 01:53:20.199 either a cause or a father, but although we do 2074 01:53:20.279 --> 01:53:22.079 not say that the spirit is from the Sun, we 2075 01:53:22.159 --> 01:53:25.439 call him the spirit of the son. And he quotes there, 2076 01:53:25.640 --> 01:53:28.159 and I think that's perhaps probably Latin, and I'm not 2077 01:53:28.199 --> 01:53:30.479 going to try to read it. Machine Santo also, I 2078 01:53:30.520 --> 01:53:32.359 wonder if he believes the son is begotten by the son, 2079 01:53:32.560 --> 01:53:34.720 because the son does what he sees the father doing. 2080 01:53:34.920 --> 01:53:36.680 And one more quote from the same Culto as the 2081 01:53:36.680 --> 01:53:38.720 second party said, the holy spirit is a spirit of 2082 01:53:38.760 --> 01:53:41.039 the Father as proceeding from the Father, and is the 2083 01:53:41.039 --> 01:53:44.199 Son's spirit not as originating from him, but as proceeding 2084 01:53:44.239 --> 01:53:49.159 through him from the Father the Father alone. It is cause. 2085 01:53:49.680 --> 01:53:51.479 All right, you guys, keep sending your super chaps. We'll 2086 01:53:51.479 --> 01:53:53.520 be reading some more after this. We're gonna jump into 2087 01:53:53.600 --> 01:53:56.199 the cross examination. If you're just joining the stream here, 2088 01:53:56.239 --> 01:53:59.640 it's where they can ask questions and then interrupt. This 2089 01:53:59.720 --> 01:54:02.000 is a very strict format that they've agreed to, and 2090 01:54:02.039 --> 01:54:03.920 a lot of you are enjoying it. With that few 2091 01:54:03.920 --> 01:54:06.720 thousand of you watching across the platforms, I appreciate you 2092 01:54:06.760 --> 01:54:08.399 guys watching. Don't for you to like, share and subscribe 2093 01:54:08.399 --> 01:54:11.680 to this video. Let's begin here with Timothy Gordon representing 2094 01:54:11.720 --> 01:54:14.479 the Catholic position. I'm going to reset the clock to 2095 01:54:14.640 --> 01:54:15.840 be one moment. I've got to get out of the 2096 01:54:15.840 --> 01:54:18.760 super chats. Your time starts now. 2097 01:54:20.920 --> 01:54:27.159 Jay, you think triadic relations of opposition don't exist. Triad 2098 01:54:27.359 --> 01:54:31.880 is three, opposition is two, precisely, so there's no opposition 2099 01:54:31.920 --> 01:54:34.880 a triad. So within a triad, there cannot be individual 2100 01:54:35.359 --> 01:54:38.800 relations of opposition. It's relations of origin in our view, now, 2101 01:54:39.159 --> 01:54:41.439 not in your view. As a matter of nature. Have 2102 01:54:41.479 --> 01:54:45.039 you ever played paper scissors rock? Yeah? Do you understand 2103 01:54:45.079 --> 01:54:49.880 that paper scissors rock is at heart triadic relations of opposition, 2104 01:54:50.279 --> 01:54:53.159 which you just said don't exist. The triad does not 2105 01:54:53.279 --> 01:54:59.000 like paper rock scissors. No an, no, no, you said 2106 01:54:59.039 --> 01:55:02.680 that that can't exit because two is indivisible within three 2107 01:55:03.159 --> 01:55:08.399 relations of opposition we have, so as the trinity scissor 2108 01:55:08.479 --> 01:55:12.520 paper rock, paper, these can exist, Bill, reality can exist 2109 01:55:12.560 --> 01:55:15.319 with fatherhood. You said this to Christian Wagner. Do you 2110 01:55:15.319 --> 01:55:18.119 care to amend your statement. It's a major logical I. 2111 01:55:18.279 --> 01:55:22.720 Think that relations of opposition described the thing as relations 2112 01:55:22.760 --> 01:55:23.359 of origin. 2113 01:55:23.760 --> 01:55:25.880 That's what I disagreed with. You said, there's a mathematical 2114 01:55:25.920 --> 01:55:29.239 problem that two doesn't go into because the diad is 2115 01:55:29.319 --> 01:55:31.640 not a triad. But you understand that there can be 2116 01:55:31.720 --> 01:55:33.520 relations of opposition within a triad. 2117 01:55:34.159 --> 01:55:37.279 Speaking naturally, there's not not in the divine triad. 2118 01:55:37.359 --> 01:55:45.520 No, no, we'll explain why. I just demonstrated the relation. Okay, 2119 01:55:45.520 --> 01:55:48.640 so you're going to play the game. Demonstrated paper scissors 2120 01:55:48.720 --> 01:55:51.920 rocks doesn't exist. That's not the triad. That is a triad. 2121 01:55:52.000 --> 01:55:55.039 That's three there. Do you how many positions are there 2122 01:55:55.079 --> 01:56:00.119 with just three? And how many how many oppositions and 2123 01:56:00.319 --> 01:56:05.760 relations triad is so you have a different triadology, and 2124 01:56:05.800 --> 01:56:09.439 that's why this doesn't explain why it's different in the trinity, 2125 01:56:09.560 --> 01:56:12.920 because we works perfect because we You say that, but 2126 01:56:13.000 --> 01:56:14.920 you don't know our position relationship. 2127 01:56:14.960 --> 01:56:18.640 I'm asking within the position of the trinity. Shut up 2128 01:56:18.680 --> 01:56:21.880 and let me answer that question. Your position relations of 2129 01:56:22.239 --> 01:56:25.920 origin is our position, not relation of opposition. 2130 01:56:26.159 --> 01:56:29.560 This is just equivocation. Wait, no, I've heard enough. That's 2131 01:56:29.600 --> 01:56:32.800 equivocation on a turn. Equivocation. You said the orthodox position 2132 01:56:32.840 --> 01:56:35.119 is a quick quote. You're not even familiar with opposition, 2133 01:56:36.159 --> 01:56:39.960 Christian are I'm talking to one dude. Triadic relations of 2134 01:56:40.000 --> 01:56:43.600 opposition cannot exist because two doesn't go into three. That's 2135 01:56:43.640 --> 01:56:46.479 what I said. I said, I diead is what opposition is. 2136 01:56:46.560 --> 01:56:48.199 I didn't say two doesn't go in I th that's 2137 01:56:49.439 --> 01:56:53.159 you're mistaking contrariety and opposition. You don't know you can 2138 01:56:53.279 --> 01:56:56.479 have an opposition with a relations position. How do you 2139 01:56:56.479 --> 01:56:57.399 don't know how? Patrician? 2140 01:56:57.439 --> 01:57:00.239 So you haven't played number theory is not your you're 2141 01:57:00.279 --> 01:57:04.520 ever an now specialty the way that paper argues for 2142 01:57:04.600 --> 01:57:05.760 a did. 2143 01:57:05.439 --> 01:57:07.399 Yeah, I would say he's asking he's asking you to 2144 01:57:07.399 --> 01:57:09.399 cut your response. He wants to continue on this questioning 2145 01:57:10.319 --> 01:57:14.199 within a triod. Within a triad, you can have oppositions 2146 01:57:14.520 --> 01:57:17.479 and it doesn't contradict the triad. I showed the trinity 2147 01:57:17.720 --> 01:57:19.520 show that I created. You didn't show that. You just 2148 01:57:19.560 --> 01:57:22.279 said it it's an analogy. Well, how do you know, 2149 01:57:22.399 --> 01:57:23.720 How do you know what matches up to the triad? 2150 01:57:24.119 --> 01:57:27.079 You don't. No, I didn't say it matches up to 2151 01:57:27.119 --> 01:57:29.319 the triad. You're you're not cross examining. 2152 01:57:28.920 --> 01:57:31.680 Your analogy doesn't work. I thought, that's the thing is 2153 01:57:31.800 --> 01:57:32.640 it works perfectly. 2154 01:57:33.159 --> 01:57:37.640 Reality, filiality in fatherhood, those are opposed within a trinity. 2155 01:57:39.600 --> 01:57:42.560 You're saying they're not opposed. That's not what relations of opposition. 2156 01:57:42.720 --> 01:57:47.279 Forget my analogy oppress This is the most important distinction 2157 01:57:47.399 --> 01:57:50.039 within the entire philio O. Wait, hold on, So you're 2158 01:57:50.079 --> 01:57:54.319 saying that affiliation and fatherhood are not opposed in the 2159 01:57:54.359 --> 01:57:56.720 traditional ways of a couple. 2160 01:57:56.720 --> 01:57:59.359 Will you let me answer this please? Are they opposed? 2161 01:57:59.359 --> 01:58:00.720 There are real relations? 2162 01:58:01.479 --> 01:58:03.399 Are they opposed? Let me finish. 2163 01:58:03.720 --> 01:58:07.159 We do not believe in cashing out who the persons 2164 01:58:07.239 --> 01:58:11.680 are by relations of opposition, because it's relative. 2165 01:58:11.800 --> 01:58:15.720 So filiation and fatherhood are not opposed. It's relative because 2166 01:58:16.159 --> 01:58:18.840 you because there's the third part. They're not a posed. 2167 01:58:19.119 --> 01:58:21.840 You can talk about relations in the triad, but they 2168 01:58:21.880 --> 01:58:25.239 don't ground the persons. That's Lostky's critique of this. You 2169 01:58:25.279 --> 01:58:26.560 could have just read the things. 2170 01:58:26.359 --> 01:58:28.119 I sent you, and then you want to be asking no, no, 2171 01:58:28.119 --> 01:58:30.159 no no, because you didn't read anything I asked you. 2172 01:58:30.359 --> 01:58:35.159 I asked you very specifically. Can there be oppositional terms 2173 01:58:35.239 --> 01:58:38.359 that I'm telling you from ourselves? You don't understand? Is 2174 01:58:38.399 --> 01:58:42.439 the way that dichotomies work. We can have we can dichotomies. 2175 01:58:43.159 --> 01:58:45.720 All I was showing mathematically is that we can conceive 2176 01:58:46.079 --> 01:58:50.359 of a triad that has three parts and three relations 2177 01:58:50.359 --> 01:58:54.479 that are all diadic. But there's there's no part. It's 2178 01:58:54.520 --> 01:58:58.319 just parts, and it doesn't work there. No, of course, 2179 01:58:58.359 --> 01:59:00.439 not right. So that's what doesn't work. But there are 2180 01:59:00.479 --> 01:59:03.520 relations of opposition, No, there's not. Yeah, there's relations of origin. 2181 01:59:03.640 --> 01:59:05.880 Well, why don't you just understand our position before trying 2182 01:59:05.880 --> 01:59:07.199 to trap me on your position? 2183 01:59:07.319 --> 01:59:09.840 I don't hold to your position? Can you? Is there 2184 01:59:09.840 --> 01:59:13.520 a single Eastern thinker between Photius and Blacker? Okay, so 2185 01:59:13.520 --> 01:59:16.119 we got that. So there there can be relations of 2186 01:59:16.159 --> 01:59:20.000 opposition between some trinities. Uh, I never granted any of this. 2187 01:59:20.199 --> 01:59:23.159 Is there a single Eastern thinker between Photius and Blackeranne 2188 01:59:23.239 --> 01:59:27.279 who embraces the eternal procession? Or they all just believers 2189 01:59:27.319 --> 01:59:30.920 in economic procession for those four hundred years. Can you 2190 01:59:31.000 --> 01:59:36.560 name a single thinker between eight hundred and twelve fifty 2191 01:59:36.880 --> 01:59:40.560 who says that there is an eternal procession from the 2192 01:59:40.600 --> 01:59:41.920 Sun to the Holy Spirit? 2193 01:59:42.800 --> 01:59:45.560 Energetic procession is taught in the telmost against John Becos, 2194 01:59:45.600 --> 01:59:48.960 it's in our council. Okay, Wait, so you think you 2195 01:59:48.960 --> 01:59:51.840 don't know what our councils teach. I'm asking you, right, 2196 01:59:52.279 --> 01:59:54.960 but is there a single person and you're not you're 2197 01:59:54.960 --> 01:59:57.319 not aware of the temost against John Becko's You guys 2198 01:59:57.359 --> 02:00:00.760 have thirty seconds, son, but so so, can you explain 2199 02:00:00.800 --> 02:00:03.000 to me what that is? It's a document from the 2200 02:00:03.000 --> 02:00:06.399 Palamite sonods in use against John Becko's Palamite sentence. 2201 02:00:06.439 --> 02:00:09.319 What year they're in? The thirteen hundreds? Okay? No, I said, 2202 02:00:09.399 --> 02:00:11.920 I wore between eight hundred and twelve fifty. I picked 2203 02:00:12.239 --> 02:00:16.840 the dates for specific reason. What if, because it's very 2204 02:00:16.880 --> 02:00:20.880 important to my case. The Catholic cases that between serial 2205 02:00:21.279 --> 02:00:25.600 between Photius and serial areas, they completely botched the understanding 2206 02:00:25.680 --> 02:00:27.840 of what Philly o'quay is, and then for the next 2207 02:00:27.840 --> 02:00:30.720 four hundred and fifty years they reduced all the relations 2208 02:00:30.760 --> 02:00:34.119 between the Sun and the Holy Spirit to economic ones. 2209 02:00:34.359 --> 02:00:37.119 And then when they came back around the time of 2210 02:00:37.159 --> 02:00:41.359 the council, you're citing that they came back in parsed language. 2211 02:00:41.399 --> 02:00:43.359 It's eternal, but it's not hypostatic. 2212 02:00:43.399 --> 02:00:45.000 All right, we're gonna have to cut that there, and 2213 02:00:45.000 --> 02:00:46.560 if you want to continue to respond to that, we're 2214 02:00:46.560 --> 02:00:48.760 gonna have to move over to Jay Dyer. Let me 2215 02:00:48.800 --> 02:00:51.560 go ahead and reset this, and you have five minutes 2216 02:00:51.600 --> 02:00:53.359 on the clock. I gave him a minute bleed because 2217 02:00:53.399 --> 02:00:55.439 it was interesting. I'll give you an extra minute bleed 2218 02:00:55.439 --> 02:00:57.039 if you need to as well. The time starts now. 2219 02:00:57.159 --> 02:00:59.920 It's a stupid argument because I showed you from Sishensky 2220 02:01:00.079 --> 02:01:03.439 that he says Basil talks about eternal manifestation. The very 2221 02:01:03.520 --> 02:01:06.560 quote that you gave from Nissa about the movement of 2222 02:01:06.600 --> 02:01:09.600 the energies. You didn't even know that it's energetic procession. 2223 02:01:09.920 --> 02:01:12.479 So you read things and you quote things, no idea 2224 02:01:12.520 --> 02:01:15.720 what the context is, or that it's actually disproving. 2225 02:01:15.199 --> 02:01:17.800 You not true. You're begging the question, begging the question 2226 02:01:18.159 --> 02:01:22.159 energetic procession, what does that even mean? You cided Nissa, 2227 02:01:22.439 --> 02:01:25.520 every operation moves from the Father through the son in 2228 02:01:25.560 --> 02:01:28.520 the spirit precisely, what do you think operation is there? 2229 02:01:29.680 --> 02:01:31.119 What do you mean? What is that? What's the word? 2230 02:01:31.800 --> 02:01:35.640 What is what's the word of the means hypostatic? What's 2231 02:01:35.680 --> 02:01:38.800 the word for operating? Begging the question because you're begging 2232 02:01:38.880 --> 02:01:44.039 the question because what's energetic procession? What's the word is? Right? 2233 02:01:44.199 --> 02:01:48.079 You use to avoid saying that it moves? To you, goober, 2234 02:01:48.359 --> 02:01:51.720 what's the word when you're talking about the word in 2235 02:01:51.720 --> 02:01:55.439 the Greek for operation? There, I don't, I don't know erga. Yeah, 2236 02:01:55.720 --> 02:01:58.239 I just said so the movement energy in your quote, 2237 02:01:58.279 --> 02:02:02.720 but except energeia has three definitions that are that are 2238 02:02:02.760 --> 02:02:05.680 susceptible of meaning there you would you know? This is 2239 02:02:05.680 --> 02:02:10.079 what I warned people that your own Yeah you don't, No, 2240 02:02:10.199 --> 02:02:14.279 you don't, which can mean either operation, It can mean action, 2241 02:02:14.439 --> 02:02:16.359 it can mean work, it can mean product. 2242 02:02:16.399 --> 02:02:18.159 You just admitted you didn't know what the word was. 2243 02:02:18.279 --> 02:02:21.920 Now what I said is that the did you requires? 2244 02:02:22.119 --> 02:02:27.560 So if it's energy, if it's a word, show that 2245 02:02:27.600 --> 02:02:30.319 it's not hypostatic. That has nothing to do with the 2246 02:02:30.319 --> 02:02:33.159 fact that you misunderstood the quote. No, I didn't misunderstand 2247 02:02:33.199 --> 02:02:33.560 it at all. 2248 02:02:33.680 --> 02:02:37.760 I didn't miss about energetic procession. You didn't know that 2249 02:02:37.920 --> 02:02:40.079 because you didn't know what it was. Yes, I did. 2250 02:02:40.079 --> 02:02:43.760 I said it. You're just lied because you said you 2251 02:02:43.840 --> 02:02:46.920 didn't know what it was energy. But the point is 2252 02:02:47.079 --> 02:02:49.319 you didn't know. You're begging the question, you know as 2253 02:02:49.720 --> 02:02:54.079 you knows, versus you have to lie the question, isn't. 2254 02:02:54.119 --> 02:02:56.279 You're changing the subject because you just got caught lying. 2255 02:02:56.359 --> 02:02:59.319 I didn't get caught lying. I said before you did. 2256 02:03:00.079 --> 02:03:03.640 Why why does it matter? Here's how Jay proved because 2257 02:03:04.199 --> 02:03:04.840 that energetic. 2258 02:03:06.319 --> 02:03:09.800 Because look, we're going we're going in circles right now, 2259 02:03:10.560 --> 02:03:12.960 and we're gonna have to agree to disagreeable. On the 2260 02:03:13.000 --> 02:03:15.840 next section, you said, if one, uh, you have three minutes, 2261 02:03:15.960 --> 02:03:19.159 if one spire, if one cannot spirate, there less does 2262 02:03:19.159 --> 02:03:19.880 the spirit produce? 2263 02:03:19.920 --> 02:03:22.800 A Person's ridiculous. I don't care if you think it's ridiculous. 2264 02:03:22.840 --> 02:03:27.359 Answer it. Repeat the question. You said, if one cannot spirrate, 2265 02:03:27.920 --> 02:03:31.199 they're less talking about the sun, right, m H, Well, 2266 02:03:31.239 --> 02:03:33.640 I was talking about all three persons. Oh so the 2267 02:03:33.640 --> 02:03:37.640 spirit spirates, yeah, passively, the past spirit spir rates. The 2268 02:03:37.640 --> 02:03:42.439 spirit spirates passively. He produced, Well, who does he produce? 2269 02:03:43.079 --> 02:03:47.960 Does he produce? He rates passively? You've never heard the distinction, No, 2270 02:03:48.119 --> 02:03:53.880 who does the Spirit produce. The Spirit produces passively himself. 2271 02:03:54.359 --> 02:03:59.399 Hit the spirit act the spirit. If you never heard 2272 02:03:59.399 --> 02:04:02.319 the distinction between active and passive spiration is the have 2273 02:04:02.439 --> 02:04:05.039 you is the essence of the source, according to see 2274 02:04:05.319 --> 02:04:07.079 all you do. You could come in here and you say, 2275 02:04:07.600 --> 02:04:11.600 according to my theology, it's this. According to campus theology, 2276 02:04:12.760 --> 02:04:16.760 our theologian is passive the spirit. You got to answer 2277 02:04:16.800 --> 02:04:19.760 the question. We're not going to run the clock. The 2278 02:04:19.800 --> 02:04:24.640 Holy Spirit proceed inspirates passively, which means it's done to him. Yes, 2279 02:04:24.720 --> 02:04:30.199 he receives it active versus passive. So yes, he himself aspirted. 2280 02:04:30.279 --> 02:04:31.640 We call that active aspiration. 2281 02:04:31.760 --> 02:04:33.920 Did you even know that? You know it's the Son? 2282 02:04:34.159 --> 02:04:36.640 Are you familiar? Are you familiar who the Holy Spirit? 2283 02:04:36.640 --> 02:04:38.199 You're saying the Holy Spirit produces himself? 2284 02:04:39.000 --> 02:04:43.840 No, I said, that receives spiration from and this is 2285 02:04:43.880 --> 02:04:47.800 a passive spiration. Who does hespirate? He doesn't actively spired? 2286 02:04:47.840 --> 02:04:49.880 Who does thespirate? You said he has to he has 2287 02:04:49.920 --> 02:04:52.239 to spirate to have the same part. You're just playing 2288 02:04:52.279 --> 02:04:57.119 games again because you don't know the Father son actively spirate. 2289 02:04:57.239 --> 02:04:59.920 You think it's the Father only in Roman Catholic the 2290 02:05:00.279 --> 02:05:01.800 tell me what I think the Holy Spirit. 2291 02:05:01.840 --> 02:05:05.159 He's answering the question claimed that the Holy I'm just 2292 02:05:05.199 --> 02:05:07.279 telling you how a theology has You're just talking and 2293 02:05:07.319 --> 02:05:10.039 you're insisting because I've got you on this. You have 2294 02:05:10.119 --> 02:05:12.560 not you said that if you don't produce a person, 2295 02:05:12.560 --> 02:05:13.439 you're supporting it. 2296 02:05:13.560 --> 02:05:16.800 Who does the Holy Spirit produce? No? I said, spir eight, 2297 02:05:17.000 --> 02:05:19.680 you have to spy if you don't back up the rest. 2298 02:05:19.760 --> 02:05:22.920 Does son have the same power as the father? Yes? 2299 02:05:23.079 --> 02:05:26.159 Does the spirit have that power? The Spirit has a 2300 02:05:26.199 --> 02:05:29.439 different power, which is to what wishable to produce who? No, 2301 02:05:29.560 --> 02:05:32.359 it's a passive spirit who, which is not the same 2302 02:05:32.399 --> 02:05:34.880 thing it's actively produced. So he does I thought the 2303 02:05:34.960 --> 02:05:37.000 language cause? So the spirit is not a cause. You've 2304 02:05:37.039 --> 02:05:40.279 never heard this distinction in Roman Catholic theology. Spirit a cause? 2305 02:05:41.119 --> 02:05:43.600 Have you ever heard this distinction in Roman? Not answer you? 2306 02:05:43.640 --> 02:05:45.960 He won't answer the questions because he doesn't. Is the 2307 02:05:45.960 --> 02:05:46.680 spirit of causes? 2308 02:05:46.920 --> 02:05:50.079 A cause? Is the spirit of thirty seconds on the 2309 02:05:50.119 --> 02:05:51.319 clock to get an answer? Or do you want to 2310 02:05:51.359 --> 02:05:55.039 end the question? Is the Holy Spirit? There's also a cause? 2311 02:05:55.199 --> 02:05:57.640 He is the cause in so far as he's passively spied? 2312 02:05:57.760 --> 02:05:58.319 Who or what? 2313 02:05:59.600 --> 02:05:59.680 Of? 2314 02:05:59.720 --> 02:06:04.079 Who? Are what? Exactly? He just lost. No, wh you 2315 02:06:04.079 --> 02:06:06.119 asked me, do you know what theology? Had you ever 2316 02:06:06.159 --> 02:06:08.239 heard the distinction? You're here to tell me what your 2317 02:06:08.239 --> 02:06:11.680 theology is? No? No, not okay. Every time I ask 2318 02:06:11.760 --> 02:06:13.279 you said do you know what theology? Do you know 2319 02:06:13.319 --> 02:06:15.960 a theology? Answer? No, you don't know. Answer you claim 2320 02:06:16.039 --> 02:06:20.800 your spirit. You're just making it at home? No, at homes? 2321 02:06:20.840 --> 02:06:23.960 And who does? By the way, the reason he won't answer, no, 2322 02:06:24.079 --> 02:06:28.239 you open who does produce? You opened up? He's saying, 2323 02:06:28.359 --> 02:06:37.439 why won't you answer? No? You just said who? Yeah exactly, 2324 02:06:37.560 --> 02:06:40.560 I said you our term is passive spression. No, you won't. 2325 02:06:40.600 --> 02:06:43.079 You won't accept these people have different that. He produced 2326 02:06:43.159 --> 02:06:48.279 terminological bases for making the claim. We don't accept subordinationism. 2327 02:06:48.399 --> 02:06:50.359 I know you don't accept it, but I'm telling you 2328 02:06:50.399 --> 02:06:54.560 how you have it orthodolosity. Say it's subordination, if it's 2329 02:06:55.119 --> 02:06:57.479 if it's the sun and the spirit together. All you're 2330 02:06:57.520 --> 02:07:00.479 doing is insisting on your upside. You have answer, You 2331 02:07:00.520 --> 02:07:01.600 just have silence. 2332 02:07:01.680 --> 02:07:05.000 I said, answer is an answer your father and son. 2333 02:07:05.479 --> 02:07:09.319 No I'm not, you said the son. Who does the 2334 02:07:09.359 --> 02:07:10.239 spirit produces? 2335 02:07:10.680 --> 02:07:15.760 Who? He passively spirates? Who? Who? What it's? Who does he? 2336 02:07:15.880 --> 02:07:18.239 Do you understand the difference between an active forms and 2337 02:07:18.319 --> 02:07:20.199 a passive verb. He is the cause of Do you 2338 02:07:20.279 --> 02:07:22.800 understand the difference between an active verb and a passive 2339 02:07:22.840 --> 02:07:23.199 before me? 2340 02:07:23.199 --> 02:07:26.399 Who's he called active verb? Has is transit is the 2341 02:07:26.399 --> 02:07:28.520 spirit of the cause. Do you not understand called him 2342 02:07:28.520 --> 02:07:29.960 a cause? He's not transitive? 2343 02:07:30.039 --> 02:07:32.399 You called him a cause? Do you understand transitivity? You're 2344 02:07:32.399 --> 02:07:34.199 not going to answer it. He won't answer. He's a 2345 02:07:34.239 --> 02:07:38.560 passive cause. I answer according to Roman Catholic, he is 2346 02:07:38.600 --> 02:07:41.600 a pastor who were on time. Let's do this. 2347 02:07:41.760 --> 02:07:44.079 Here's I'm gonna I want to leave it with two questions. 2348 02:07:44.119 --> 02:07:45.079 He's asking you a question. 2349 02:07:45.159 --> 02:07:48.920 Nothing that you ask asked the question clearly, and I 2350 02:07:48.920 --> 02:07:50.680 want to hear just a simple answer. We'll leave it 2351 02:07:50.680 --> 02:07:53.000 at that. What is the question? Repeat it? What is 2352 02:07:53.000 --> 02:07:57.199 the one question the cause of who? Go ahead? What 2353 02:07:57.279 --> 02:08:00.560 is the cause of him? Exactly? Can you act? 2354 02:08:02.039 --> 02:08:06.119 Asking questions to questions which, to be fair, said of 2355 02:08:07.119 --> 02:08:10.279 the moderator, You know that's saying that's It's the point 2356 02:08:10.359 --> 02:08:12.159 to where I feel like we've gone in a complete circle. 2357 02:08:12.319 --> 02:08:15.640 I'm going to take completely unbiased here and say we 2358 02:08:15.680 --> 02:08:18.359 can't come to a conclusion when we're asking questions to questions. 2359 02:08:18.359 --> 02:08:21.039 So we will just leave it there. We will move here. 2360 02:08:21.239 --> 02:08:22.840 I think, can I make a response? Yeah, you can. 2361 02:08:22.880 --> 02:08:24.520 You can make a response or ask one question, but 2362 02:08:24.560 --> 02:08:26.640 it's got to be as simple to the point, not 2363 02:08:26.680 --> 02:08:29.960 a paragraph. Just what's the statement. So in Roman Catholic 2364 02:08:30.039 --> 02:08:33.760 theology we say active spiration by the father and the son, 2365 02:08:34.199 --> 02:08:38.520 passive spiration by the spirit. Passive means that one is 2366 02:08:38.560 --> 02:08:41.840 not acting but is acted upon. It is a passive potency. 2367 02:08:42.000 --> 02:08:43.520 I asked you if he's a cause, and you said 2368 02:08:43.520 --> 02:08:47.359 he was. Yes, there's one soul. Cause are you talking 2369 02:08:47.359 --> 02:08:49.479 to K I thought you were talking one soul causes 2370 02:08:49.520 --> 02:08:53.560 the I just add you said I don't know. I 2371 02:08:53.600 --> 02:08:53.880 didn't know. 2372 02:08:54.399 --> 02:08:56.760 I sincerely didn't know what you I the term that 2373 02:08:56.800 --> 02:08:57.720 the spirits are cause the. 2374 02:08:57.840 --> 02:09:02.000 Spirit is a passive spirator of who? And I said, 2375 02:09:02.199 --> 02:09:05.039 this doesn't make sense in the context of active and passive. 2376 02:09:05.159 --> 02:09:08.199 So he doesn't. He's not a cause. You're making it 2377 02:09:08.239 --> 02:09:10.680 like there's a flaw. There's not. This is just how 2378 02:09:10.760 --> 02:09:13.039 we call you're not. This is how we explain. So 2379 02:09:13.119 --> 02:09:15.880 he won't the monarchy, you don't explain it. And John 2380 02:09:15.920 --> 02:09:19.359 chapter sixteen, you're dodging the basic question. I'm not dodging 2381 02:09:19.479 --> 02:09:22.800 twenty things. I'm not dodging Jay. All I'm seeking to 2382 02:09:22.840 --> 02:09:27.840 do is exitgy John sixteen. The fact that that Jesus said, 2383 02:09:28.079 --> 02:09:31.159 Jesus says everything the Father has, I have as well. 2384 02:09:31.680 --> 02:09:34.239 And you said, well, the cause that subordination. That the 2385 02:09:34.279 --> 02:09:37.479 cause you're trying to drive the position into subordinationism. And 2386 02:09:37.520 --> 02:09:40.199 I'm saying, no, there's such a thing as passive spies. 2387 02:09:40.279 --> 02:09:42.680 I sure stand you're saying that. But what you're showing 2388 02:09:42.840 --> 02:09:45.600 a cause you didn't show anything. You just say, are you? 2389 02:09:45.640 --> 02:09:48.920 Are you? Are you? Are you satisfied with the answer? 2390 02:09:48.920 --> 02:09:51.960 Do you feel like he answered no, he's not about dodging. 2391 02:09:52.000 --> 02:09:54.359 But okay, And do you believe that you're answering or 2392 02:09:54.399 --> 02:09:56.039 do you think do you agree with me you're dodging. 2393 02:09:56.079 --> 02:09:59.359 I'm answering on behalf of Roman Catholic theology that we have. 2394 02:09:59.399 --> 02:10:02.199 What are you dodg because you're also you're dodging my question? 2395 02:10:02.319 --> 02:10:03.680 Do you think you dodged him? Or do you think 2396 02:10:03.720 --> 02:10:04.760 you give an absolute answer? 2397 02:10:04.880 --> 02:10:08.239 I gave an absolute answer. What is your absolute answer? 2398 02:10:08.239 --> 02:10:09.800 I just I just want to know. For the absolute 2399 02:10:09.840 --> 02:10:13.039 answer is when we say active spiration we mean that 2400 02:10:13.119 --> 02:10:18.720 the Father causes the Holy Spirit through the hypostasies of 2401 02:10:18.359 --> 02:10:22.359 the hypostasis of the sun. These are active because the 2402 02:10:22.439 --> 02:10:32.119 sun aids Uh. The view of John Damascene is literally source, Father, River, Sun, lake, Spirit. 2403 02:10:32.199 --> 02:10:34.000 So he's saying, well, well, what does the spirit do? 2404 02:10:34.159 --> 02:10:37.119 I'm saying, well, in Roman Catholic theology, which is perfectly 2405 02:10:37.399 --> 02:10:41.239 uh philly Okuwa is perfectly square with this analogy, With 2406 02:10:41.359 --> 02:10:44.279 this analogy that we would say that that is what's 2407 02:10:44.319 --> 02:10:47.239 called a passive spiration. He receives it. 2408 02:10:47.840 --> 02:10:52.359 And it's a difficult question, as he asked many times, 2409 02:10:52.359 --> 02:10:55.039 as he was asked many times, was when you said 2410 02:10:55.039 --> 02:10:58.039 that the spirit is a cause, which you affirmed multiple times. 2411 02:10:58.439 --> 02:11:00.720 I asked you cause of who are what? And you 2412 02:11:00.760 --> 02:11:03.319 had no answer. No, I didn't have no answer. I 2413 02:11:03.399 --> 02:11:06.319 was saying that the spirit is caused. And this is 2414 02:11:06.760 --> 02:11:09.399 this is why you say it's subordinate. You said he's 2415 02:11:09.399 --> 02:11:12.920 a call I said, he's a passive spirator of who 2416 02:11:13.000 --> 02:11:15.399 or what? So he's saying he's he's a spy ray 2417 02:11:15.439 --> 02:11:17.720 to or of who are what does the passive voice 2418 02:11:17.760 --> 02:11:20.279 as a verb have Does it mean cause or does 2419 02:11:20.319 --> 02:11:22.760 it assert a cause has been done? He's a cause 2420 02:11:22.840 --> 02:11:25.680 grammatical you said he's a cause. I feel like I 2421 02:11:25.680 --> 02:11:27.880 feel like we're arguing semantics. I feel like this is 2422 02:11:27.880 --> 02:11:31.039 semantics because you're saying one thing, he's saying another, and 2423 02:11:31.079 --> 02:11:33.039 I feel like we're getting We're not getting nowhere. I'm 2424 02:11:33.079 --> 02:11:36.319 just giving the answer. According to our theology, we the 2425 02:11:36.319 --> 02:11:39.119 Holy Spirit is a passive spirator. That's the whore that 2426 02:11:39.159 --> 02:11:43.319 can be who are what? The Holy Spirit receives spiration 2427 02:11:43.640 --> 02:11:47.840 from God through the sun, and he receives it. Okay, 2428 02:11:47.880 --> 02:11:53.479 Is that clear generation produces the sun? Right? Yes, generation produces. 2429 02:11:53.159 --> 02:11:55.760 So let me go to this because because of the 2430 02:11:55.800 --> 02:11:57.239 statements here, we're not going to go very long on 2431 02:11:57.279 --> 02:11:59.159 the closing. I want to give it it basically like 2432 02:11:59.199 --> 02:12:01.680 a well basic called a second rebuttal bit of closing 2433 02:12:01.960 --> 02:12:05.840 because there's a miscommunication or an intentional dodging. But I 2434 02:12:05.840 --> 02:12:08.560 am going to stay completely unbiased in the moderation. Say, 2435 02:12:08.840 --> 02:12:10.720 I will leave the chat up. I want to know 2436 02:12:10.760 --> 02:12:13.720 from you guys in the chat. We'll switch it up 2437 02:12:13.720 --> 02:12:15.880 the ones in the chat. If you think that uh, 2438 02:12:16.520 --> 02:12:20.279 Timothy answered the question and that he answered it according 2439 02:12:20.279 --> 02:12:21.640 to what he said, two's in the chat. If you 2440 02:12:21.640 --> 02:12:24.119 think he's lying slash dodging. I guess you could use 2441 02:12:24.119 --> 02:12:26.319 different words upending what you think and agree with Jay 2442 02:12:26.479 --> 02:12:28.439 and someone's like, I've seen the chat you accusing me 2443 02:12:28.479 --> 02:12:30.680 of agree with both of them. I am neither orthodox 2444 02:12:30.880 --> 02:12:33.199 nor Catholics. You guys can all hate me because I'm 2445 02:12:33.239 --> 02:12:35.199 neither and I don't have a. 2446 02:12:34.920 --> 02:12:41.640 I just articulated what the view is. Articulated you. You've 2447 02:12:41.640 --> 02:12:43.840 given that answer four times in acting. All right, so 2448 02:12:43.880 --> 02:12:44.479 let me let me go to this. 2449 02:12:44.560 --> 02:12:47.920 I'm gonna don't you know what aspiration means because you 2450 02:12:48.319 --> 02:12:52.479 said he cause he's a cause I said you said that. 2451 02:12:52.720 --> 02:12:55.279 If I said that when you're sputtering out sentence fragments 2452 02:12:55.319 --> 02:12:57.720 in the cross X, I never said that. I never 2453 02:12:57.760 --> 02:12:59.159 intended to say the spirits. 2454 02:12:58.960 --> 02:13:00.800 Cause that's why you got silent and had to think 2455 02:13:00.800 --> 02:13:02.079 about how to talk your way out of it. 2456 02:13:02.199 --> 02:13:05.359 I got silent because I'm trying to talk over because no, 2457 02:13:05.439 --> 02:13:06.159 that's not true. 2458 02:13:06.319 --> 02:13:08.640 The Holy Spirit doesn't have the power of the son, right, 2459 02:13:11.600 --> 02:13:13.399 so he's subordinated, so he's lacking a power. 2460 02:13:13.560 --> 02:13:17.319 No, no, we say he's not subordinated because he is 2461 02:13:17.399 --> 02:13:20.760 a passive. But he doesn't produce a person. Right on 2462 02:13:20.800 --> 02:13:23.520 your view, you are the Son to the Father. 2463 02:13:24.079 --> 02:13:27.600 There is subordination in the trinity, yeah, role subordination, not 2464 02:13:27.640 --> 02:13:28.720 ontological subordination. 2465 02:13:28.760 --> 02:13:33.399 That's called monarchia. Yeah yeah, except no, that's not true. 2466 02:13:33.439 --> 02:13:36.640 You're picking who's subordinated, either the Holy Smell or the 2467 02:13:36.720 --> 02:13:38.800 Son together. No, no, that's a logical. 2468 02:13:39.239 --> 02:13:42.119 Does Jesus say that he worships the Father and he 2469 02:13:42.199 --> 02:13:43.079 does the Father's will? 2470 02:13:44.359 --> 02:13:49.600 Does the role of subordination role? No, No, you don't know. Basically, 2471 02:13:49.640 --> 02:13:52.840 he says that the Father has is mine as well. 2472 02:13:52.880 --> 02:13:54.800 Does he says, let me come here, let. 2473 02:13:54.720 --> 02:13:57.000 Me come here and ask you a question, Because from 2474 02:13:57.000 --> 02:14:00.800 somebody who's not as well versed in the news of 2475 02:14:01.359 --> 02:14:05.119 this debate between Catholics and Orthodox it would just, in 2476 02:14:05.199 --> 02:14:09.720 a structural sense, seem like perhaps you're avoiding answering something 2477 02:14:09.720 --> 02:14:12.439 directly to avoid being seen as crazy or to like 2478 02:14:12.800 --> 02:14:14.279 not be seen as in Saint colag If somebody you 2479 02:14:14.319 --> 02:14:16.680 know asked someone like, oh, are you a good question, 2480 02:14:16.760 --> 02:14:18.479 like are you a white supremacist or something, and you know, 2481 02:14:18.560 --> 02:14:20.800 it's sort of like a question. If you answer it, 2482 02:14:21.319 --> 02:14:22.800 you're kind of screwed either way. If you say no, 2483 02:14:22.800 --> 02:14:24.640 people are gonna get mad because you don't like your race. 2484 02:14:24.680 --> 02:14:25.920 If you say yes, they're going to call you an 2485 02:14:25.920 --> 02:14:27.800 extremists and try to disqualify you. 2486 02:14:27.840 --> 02:14:29.319 So it comes across like there's a little bit of 2487 02:14:29.319 --> 02:14:34.199 that moving around. Understand, you're saying I'm lying because he's 2488 02:14:35.079 --> 02:14:37.920 questions I'm saying. I'm saying I'm saying to me, I'm 2489 02:14:37.960 --> 02:14:41.000 saying I'm getting the dancing. I'm not saying it's lying. 2490 02:14:41.079 --> 02:14:43.039 I'm singing that. Like, maybe there's a more direct way 2491 02:14:43.079 --> 02:14:45.960 you want to answer it that you're not saying. He's saying. 2492 02:14:46.039 --> 02:14:48.159 I don't know what he's saying you're lying about because 2493 02:14:48.319 --> 02:14:52.520 I don't. I don't understand because I don't know if 2494 02:14:52.560 --> 02:14:58.159 you talking about I haven't said it across examination in 2495 02:14:58.199 --> 02:15:02.000 a cross examination, though, you're harassing the witness. When I said, 2496 02:15:02.399 --> 02:15:06.640 here's our two active spirators, one passive spira, you're like, well, 2497 02:15:06.680 --> 02:15:08.640 what is that? I was like, that's our theology. And 2498 02:15:08.640 --> 02:15:10.760 then you're like, that's a dodge. That's not a dodge. 2499 02:15:10.760 --> 02:15:14.600 Two active spirators. We have the father the son. 2500 02:15:14.680 --> 02:15:19.199 I thought the father generated, not spirated the spirit the 2501 02:15:19.239 --> 02:15:24.960 fun Wait, the father general generate right then he spirates, right? 2502 02:15:25.680 --> 02:15:27.319 Yeah, what I was what I was trying to get 2503 02:15:27.319 --> 02:15:31.000 out is the passivity of the spirit. And then you said, 2504 02:15:31.039 --> 02:15:33.319 you said that's a cause. I said, that's not a cause. 2505 02:15:33.920 --> 02:15:36.479 So how many causes are there? I think there's one 2506 02:15:36.800 --> 02:15:39.239 and that's who the father. Okay, but he gives cause 2507 02:15:39.239 --> 02:15:42.880 alary to the son, right, he gives the ability through 2508 02:15:42.920 --> 02:15:43.359 the son. 2509 02:15:43.560 --> 02:15:46.199 So many causes? Is that it's one, but he gives 2510 02:15:46.199 --> 02:15:48.560 it to the son. Yes, this is this is hypostatic. 2511 02:15:48.720 --> 02:15:49.880 This is hypostatic. 2512 02:15:50.079 --> 02:15:52.399 What does the son contribute that the father doesn't to 2513 02:15:52.439 --> 02:15:54.159 the to the spiration? Well, I mean, are we just 2514 02:15:54.199 --> 02:15:57.760 going on an extra cross examination? Oh so he doesn't 2515 02:15:57.760 --> 02:15:58.199 want to answer that. 2516 02:15:58.319 --> 02:16:00.560 I know, so I don't want And we could take 2517 02:16:00.560 --> 02:16:03.239 this conclusions as a little extension to see where if 2518 02:16:03.239 --> 02:16:05.920 you guys, could further explain your position only because of 2519 02:16:06.000 --> 02:16:07.680 someone who's trying to position. 2520 02:16:07.920 --> 02:16:11.079 Let's just go ahead with it as trying to understand 2521 02:16:11.079 --> 02:16:13.760 the position. I'm thinking about the audience. And if you were, 2522 02:16:13.840 --> 02:16:15.920 let's say, a prop sitting here and you're not familiar 2523 02:16:16.199 --> 02:16:19.479 with the you know, consequential dogma from from Catholics or 2524 02:16:19.520 --> 02:16:23.640 from Orthodox I'm sitting here like trying to actually understand 2525 02:16:23.800 --> 02:16:26.800 what you're saying. And I am not accusing you of lying. 2526 02:16:26.800 --> 02:16:28.119 I'm actual accusing you of doing nothing. 2527 02:16:28.399 --> 02:16:31.399 But I'm saying to me, I'm like, okay, I know, 2528 02:16:31.479 --> 02:16:33.840 I wouldn't know if you were jumping around from what 2529 02:16:33.879 --> 02:16:34.319 he's saying, or. 2530 02:16:34.319 --> 02:16:36.600 You can understand the Orthodox view of the Trinity from 2531 02:16:36.600 --> 02:16:41.159 what he said. That's a good question. So let's let's 2532 02:16:41.200 --> 02:16:43.559 do a question, because if you're being object no, no, 2533 02:16:44.959 --> 02:16:46.760 you're lying something, I wouldn't know if you're lying, right, 2534 02:16:46.799 --> 02:16:49.159 I wouldn't know if you're dodging him, or if you're lying, 2535 02:16:49.159 --> 02:16:49.639 I wouldn't know. 2536 02:16:49.760 --> 02:16:54.120 I'm not saying he's lying about the Catholic position, that 2537 02:16:54.159 --> 02:16:56.520 he's representing the Catholic position. I'm saying that in the 2538 02:16:56.639 --> 02:17:00.000 course of that discourse, he's lying about what he previously 2539 02:17:00.079 --> 02:17:01.799 he said saying no, I never said that when he 2540 02:17:01.799 --> 02:17:03.680 did say the cause part, yes. 2541 02:17:03.639 --> 02:17:05.520 Okay, because that's how I thought. Okay, Then I got confused. 2542 02:17:05.520 --> 02:17:06.520 I thought he was saying that you were not right. 2543 02:17:06.680 --> 02:17:09.559 I said it was unintentional. And if you said, is 2544 02:17:09.600 --> 02:17:11.239 it a cause, and I've said yeah, yeah, yeah, So 2545 02:17:11.280 --> 02:17:14.120 half the time I'm brushing you off. That's not the 2546 02:17:14.440 --> 02:17:17.319 That's what this was all about. I was saying a 2547 02:17:17.440 --> 02:17:20.159 Roman Catholic point of view. Well, it's not a misunderstanding 2548 02:17:20.319 --> 02:17:22.440 the Roman Catholic point of view. I said, all along, 2549 02:17:22.760 --> 02:17:26.479 we have these two. I mean, it's an upside down triangle. 2550 02:17:27.159 --> 02:17:33.040 And all I was saying is it's subordination. Uh, he's 2551 02:17:33.079 --> 02:17:37.600 accusing us of subordination just because I cited John chapter 2552 02:17:37.680 --> 02:17:41.360 sixteen where Jesus says, all the Father has I have 2553 02:17:41.440 --> 02:17:45.360 as well, And he's saying, well, then he cannot the Essence, 2554 02:17:45.399 --> 02:17:47.639 the Divine Essence cannot come to the Holy Spirit through 2555 02:17:47.680 --> 02:17:48.000 the sun. 2556 02:17:48.120 --> 02:17:50.200 That's not what I said. You don't even understand the argument, 2557 02:17:50.399 --> 02:17:52.280 making a very clear argument. You're in it seems to 2558 02:17:52.280 --> 02:17:56.399 be not understanding that because it's basic and it's very simple. 2559 02:17:56.840 --> 02:17:59.840 Read it's very simple. Did you read the mistagogees, it's 2560 02:17:59.920 --> 02:18:02.840 very're gonna cut that. We're gonna cut that there. And 2561 02:18:02.840 --> 02:18:04.600 by the way, to the people saying I'm trying to understand, 2562 02:18:04.639 --> 02:18:06.079 because if you don't know, I'm just saying in a 2563 02:18:06.159 --> 02:18:08.239 very basic sense, I'm like you, guys. 2564 02:18:08.280 --> 02:18:09.760 Part of the reason why we're hosting this debate, and 2565 02:18:09.799 --> 02:18:12.719 I think it's very important, is personally, I'm very interested 2566 02:18:12.760 --> 02:18:15.920 in understanding what church I should go to. Whether Catholic 2567 02:18:16.000 --> 02:18:17.559 is a church to join and to become a part of, 2568 02:18:17.600 --> 02:18:18.719 whether Orthodox. 2569 02:18:18.440 --> 02:18:19.879 And a lot of you guys are searching this too. 2570 02:18:20.239 --> 02:18:21.479 I don't think a lot of you guys who are 2571 02:18:21.479 --> 02:18:24.360 Catholic or Orthodox may be wanting to uh, you know, 2572 02:18:24.440 --> 02:18:26.280 revert or convert whatever you want to call it in 2573 02:18:26.319 --> 02:18:29.680 your language into the other uh uh you know order. 2574 02:18:30.040 --> 02:18:32.280 But for myself, you know, because just because I started 2575 02:18:32.319 --> 02:18:34.440 attending a Catholic church, I've been to an Orthodox church 2576 02:18:34.479 --> 02:18:37.079 before too. For a while, I've gone to a Catholic church, 2577 02:18:37.319 --> 02:18:39.959 and sometimes they aren't always very open about exactly what 2578 02:18:39.959 --> 02:18:40.360 they believe. 2579 02:18:40.360 --> 02:18:41.479 There's a lot of disagreements. 2580 02:18:41.600 --> 02:18:43.120 So kind of the point of this is, is someone like 2581 02:18:43.159 --> 02:18:45.040 myself to sit here and try to make sure if 2582 02:18:45.040 --> 02:18:47.280 he's saying he's lying. I'm just asking what he's saying 2583 02:18:47.280 --> 02:18:48.840 he' lying about. Is he saying about what he said 2584 02:18:48.840 --> 02:18:51.440 previously or about the Catholic's position, because I'm interested to 2585 02:18:51.440 --> 02:18:53.079 find out to make sure I'm getting the correct position, 2586 02:18:53.079 --> 02:18:54.799 and if if that's a correct position, I appreciate it 2587 02:18:54.840 --> 02:18:57.200 and your position. However, I do think in a quick 2588 02:18:57.479 --> 02:19:00.200 in a quick summary, like if you could do in 2589 02:19:00.200 --> 02:19:04.360 like one paragraph, just what is the official Orthodox position 2590 02:19:05.120 --> 02:19:06.719 on this on this topic, because. 2591 02:19:06.520 --> 02:19:07.799 It was a lot of this back and forth and 2592 02:19:07.840 --> 02:19:10.680 then you you go, is this the closing statements correct? Correct? 2593 02:19:10.680 --> 02:19:13.520 For the section I stated succinctly what the Catholic position is. 2594 02:19:13.639 --> 02:19:15.959 Yeah, yeah, I'm just saying, but inside with an end 2595 02:19:15.959 --> 02:19:17.959 summary and make sure you restate it just for people 2596 02:19:17.959 --> 02:19:20.239 who were new to the stream or who got lost 2597 02:19:20.239 --> 02:19:22.159 in the argument and the tit for tat what what 2598 02:19:22.319 --> 02:19:23.920 was it? And if you could finish, and then we'll 2599 02:19:23.959 --> 02:19:25.239 have you, we'll have you closed as well. 2600 02:19:25.319 --> 02:19:25.479 Yeah. 2601 02:19:25.559 --> 02:19:28.159 So essentially what I'm taking issue with is the idea 2602 02:19:28.319 --> 02:19:33.200 that he said if the son does not spi rate, 2603 02:19:33.680 --> 02:19:37.639 he's subordinated because he's not having all that the father has. 2604 02:19:39.239 --> 02:19:44.479 So I ask, does the spirit spi rate? And or 2605 02:19:44.520 --> 02:19:45.040 excuse me? 2606 02:19:45.239 --> 02:19:49.000 Yeah, and then he says he's a passive he passively 2607 02:19:49.079 --> 02:19:49.719 spir rates. 2608 02:19:49.920 --> 02:19:51.319 I say, who does the spir rate? 2609 02:19:52.520 --> 02:19:56.479 He says, he aspirated passively because he receives spiration. 2610 02:19:56.719 --> 02:19:57.920 That's what passive means. 2611 02:19:57.719 --> 02:20:01.559 Because he thinks that being spy rated is spiration, which 2612 02:20:01.600 --> 02:20:05.879 is a basic blunder. No, moving on, I'm doing my talk, 2613 02:20:06.120 --> 02:20:13.200 so you hush please, moving on, he says, I mean, 2614 02:20:13.239 --> 02:20:15.479 I'm sorry that you just dizz bad in this section. 2615 02:20:15.559 --> 02:20:18.040 Dude. It would have helped if you'd read the Mystagajy, 2616 02:20:18.159 --> 02:20:22.200 but you didn't. Passive spiration, you didn't. You said you did. 2617 02:20:23.159 --> 02:20:26.120 Stop stop, let's keep it. You go here and then 2618 02:20:26.120 --> 02:20:27.879 we'll switch. You can make fun of me all you want, 2619 02:20:27.879 --> 02:20:28.760 and you're let's. 2620 02:20:28.639 --> 02:20:30.360 Keep let's keep the personal tax out and let's go 2621 02:20:30.360 --> 02:20:32.319 and just explain the facts, and then we'll go over 2622 02:20:32.319 --> 02:20:32.600 to Tim. 2623 02:20:32.600 --> 02:20:35.600 He'll explain the facts as well. So I understand. You know, 2624 02:20:35.719 --> 02:20:37.159 he's got a lot going on, he's busy. 2625 02:20:37.200 --> 02:20:39.920 I don't fault him for not reading the stuff that 2626 02:20:39.959 --> 02:20:42.559 I send, but it's been multiple years where I've linked 2627 02:20:42.559 --> 02:20:44.920 and sent him these texts which he hasn't read. If 2628 02:20:44.920 --> 02:20:46.840 you had read the Mystagogy, he would know that. One 2629 02:20:46.840 --> 02:20:50.399 of the first arguments in the mystagaji Uh, and it's 2630 02:20:50.760 --> 02:20:52.959 stated it multiple times over. It's also repeated in the 2631 02:20:53.000 --> 02:20:56.799 appredicted Treatise of Sant Gregory Palmis by the Way centuries later. 2632 02:20:57.000 --> 02:21:00.479 The same argument that to say that there's sport nation 2633 02:21:00.840 --> 02:21:04.159 because the son doesn't have the power of causality becomes 2634 02:21:04.159 --> 02:21:08.360 a problem because the Holy Spirit now lacks that causality. 2635 02:21:08.760 --> 02:21:11.879 To talk about passive spiration and to equate that with 2636 02:21:13.000 --> 02:21:16.760 to to equate being spirrated with spiration is just so silly. 2637 02:21:16.799 --> 02:21:18.399 I don't even know how to respond to it. It's 2638 02:21:18.440 --> 02:21:19.840 it's fundamentally stupid. 2639 02:21:19.879 --> 02:21:24.479 Because spiration is what picks out the Holy Spirit. Generation 2640 02:21:24.680 --> 02:21:25.680 is what picks out the Son. 2641 02:21:25.719 --> 02:21:29.159 They're called hypostetic properties, and for Orthodox we relate them 2642 02:21:29.159 --> 02:21:32.600 to the Father in relations of origin. That's the Orthodox teaching. 2643 02:21:32.639 --> 02:21:35.680 The Cabadocians, it's restated. You want to read Loski's paper 2644 02:21:35.719 --> 02:21:38.280 called the Procession of the Holy Spirit Orthodox Doctrine. You can 2645 02:21:38.280 --> 02:21:40.680 also read a Roman Catholic that talks about this and 2646 02:21:40.719 --> 02:21:43.440 admits all my points by Eaves Kongar. He wrote an 2647 02:21:43.520 --> 02:21:46.840 essay about Augustine relations of opposition and the Cappadocians, which 2648 02:21:46.920 --> 02:21:50.639 also makes all of my arguments. So again, our position 2649 02:21:50.760 --> 02:21:53.440 is that the Father is the one true God. He 2650 02:21:53.600 --> 02:21:56.520 is the sole archae, the monarchia. It is the teaching 2651 02:21:56.520 --> 02:21:59.920 of Constantinople One. The Cappadocians don't teach the Philly oquaper, 2652 02:22:00.079 --> 02:22:03.280 so I said, because causality is the hyposthetic. 2653 02:22:02.760 --> 02:22:04.360 Property that is not communicable. 2654 02:22:05.079 --> 02:22:08.760 And again the argument that the son becomes the cause, 2655 02:22:09.600 --> 02:22:12.799 imbalances the trinity and creates a diad because no one 2656 02:22:13.120 --> 02:22:16.000 teaches that the spirit is a cause, and so he 2657 02:22:16.120 --> 02:22:20.159 lacks causality in both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox model. 2658 02:22:20.399 --> 02:22:23.799 But we're consistent because we don't give the father's unique 2659 02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:28.040 hypostatic marker and property of being cause to the son. 2660 02:22:28.879 --> 02:22:30.719 And just to ask you simply, do you feel like 2661 02:22:30.719 --> 02:22:35.200 he he dictated correctly or at least to what you 2662 02:22:35.319 --> 02:22:37.600 know to be the actual position of the Orthodox Church 2663 02:22:37.639 --> 02:22:39.719 on this issue. Yeah, okay, you do. So I just 2664 02:22:39.719 --> 02:22:41.639 want to make sure that that's so we're clear because 2665 02:22:41.639 --> 02:22:43.040 the chat, you know, was a little bit all over 2666 02:22:43.040 --> 02:22:44.399 the place, not not knowing what was going on. 2667 02:22:44.520 --> 02:22:44.840 All right. 2668 02:22:44.879 --> 02:22:48.159 So then going over to Timothy, also to Jay, please 2669 02:22:48.159 --> 02:22:50.280 don't interrupt. We're gonna just keep this a straight, a 2670 02:22:50.280 --> 02:22:53.399 straight uh diatribe here. So if you want to go 2671 02:22:53.440 --> 02:22:55.959 ahead and give your position, one. 2672 02:22:55.360 --> 02:22:59.040 Off Jay's tricks is he'll laugh at the Roman Catholic position, 2673 02:22:59.120 --> 02:23:01.559 which which he knows what it is, and then he'll 2674 02:23:01.600 --> 02:23:06.840 ask for a term to be identified, like passive spiration, 2675 02:23:07.239 --> 02:23:10.559 as if it's being made up ex nilo or something, 2676 02:23:10.600 --> 02:23:14.680 and he'll say, well, how does that relate to Orthodox theology? 2677 02:23:14.680 --> 02:23:17.120 And I was saying, well, it doesn't. That's the tension 2678 02:23:17.280 --> 02:23:21.280 that exists between the Orthodox and the Catholic position. And 2679 02:23:21.280 --> 02:23:25.520 he laughs, and then all of the Bots in Chat say, oh, okay, 2680 02:23:25.959 --> 02:23:29.639 a good score. I would go back to the heart 2681 02:23:29.799 --> 02:23:35.319 of Trinitarian theology for Roman Catholics, which really has to 2682 02:23:35.360 --> 02:23:42.360 do with actus purus, the fact that the consubstantial Father Son, 2683 02:23:42.440 --> 02:23:47.520 Holy Spirit relate to one another oppositionally. And this is 2684 02:23:47.600 --> 02:23:51.200 within the substance. He was making fun of the term usiological. 2685 02:23:51.280 --> 02:23:54.040 That just means they all relate within one substance. There's 2686 02:23:54.239 --> 02:23:59.360 nothing uncreated outside the substance of God, the Divine Essence, 2687 02:23:59.360 --> 02:24:02.440 Father Son, hohold Spirit. They relate to each other with 2688 02:24:03.280 --> 02:24:09.000 a distinction, a distinction of operation. Jay had this infamous 2689 02:24:09.000 --> 02:24:12.920 debate with Christian Wagner where Christian Wagner was getting him 2690 02:24:12.920 --> 02:24:16.399 to admit, essentially that he didn't understand what a relation 2691 02:24:16.479 --> 02:24:20.840 of opposition was. I brought this up today and I 2692 02:24:20.959 --> 02:24:23.520 was saying, Okay, have you ever played paper scissors rock? 2693 02:24:23.600 --> 02:24:26.559 The reason I did that is because paper Scissors Rock 2694 02:24:26.719 --> 02:24:31.520 proves that conceptually, at least at the very least conceptually 2695 02:24:32.159 --> 02:24:35.520 if you're trying to win paper scissors rock Triadic relations 2696 02:24:35.559 --> 02:24:40.879 of opposition do exist. Just because there are three couplets 2697 02:24:41.360 --> 02:24:47.639 doesn't mean that there is not individual tension or opposition 2698 02:24:47.799 --> 02:24:52.440 or a dichotomy between ab BC and c A. This 2699 02:24:52.600 --> 02:24:56.280 is absolutely nonsensical. It was an embarrassment that Jay said this, 2700 02:24:56.760 --> 02:24:59.319 and I was saying, Okay, that's fine. When I brought 2701 02:24:59.319 --> 02:25:01.200 this up with him earlier, he said, we'll prove that 2702 02:25:01.200 --> 02:25:03.760 that exists for the Trinity. I'm just proving that it's 2703 02:25:03.799 --> 02:25:08.360 conceptually possible. So it's an embarrassment to say that, to 2704 02:25:08.440 --> 02:25:12.399 deny that the relations of opposition which characterized the Catholic 2705 02:25:12.520 --> 02:25:15.479 view of the Trinity, which work very very well, because 2706 02:25:15.520 --> 02:25:21.639 then we don't end up having deposit in uncreated energy 2707 02:25:21.760 --> 02:25:26.000 outside of God that is not created, not a creature, 2708 02:25:26.440 --> 02:25:30.479 but is really distinct from God, which is a nonsense term. 2709 02:25:30.639 --> 02:25:33.159 It means to gods are more or infinite gods. As 2710 02:25:33.239 --> 02:25:38.440 Jay said earlier, infinite divine energies. He said, infinite divine energies. 2711 02:25:38.479 --> 02:25:41.319 You're going to say, I'm that's not a lie. That's 2712 02:25:41.559 --> 02:25:46.959 what I said. That's what I'm saying. That's an absurdity. 2713 02:25:47.399 --> 02:25:50.760 We avoid this problem by saying we allow distinctions within 2714 02:25:50.879 --> 02:25:55.840 the substance of God, we don't allow distinctions within God 2715 02:25:57.280 --> 02:26:02.000 that would be concerning or about another other essence, an 2716 02:26:02.079 --> 02:26:06.200 essence and energy's distinction. And this all boils down to 2717 02:26:06.399 --> 02:26:09.719 relations of opposition, which jay I still am not clear 2718 02:26:09.760 --> 02:26:12.879 on his position whether or not whether or not relations 2719 02:26:12.920 --> 02:26:17.479 of opposition can exist within a threesome within a triad? 2720 02:26:19.399 --> 02:26:21.559 Can they that you think the trendy is a threesome? 2721 02:26:22.559 --> 02:26:27.120 It's it's three? Do they? Do they exist? What exists? 2722 02:26:27.360 --> 02:26:30.959 Can a B and C oppose one another? Within the 2723 02:26:31.040 --> 02:26:33.360 triad of holy. 2724 02:26:33.120 --> 02:26:36.840 Spiatistic number theory diad relates to two, not a triad? 2725 02:26:37.120 --> 02:26:39.159 Well, diet is always two. That's not what I'm asking. 2726 02:26:39.920 --> 02:26:43.760 There's no opposition in a triad because opposition is a diet. No, 2727 02:26:44.000 --> 02:26:48.639 there can be opposition within individual constituents of a tria. Okay, 2728 02:26:48.719 --> 02:26:51.799 so for for all time, I want this on records. 2729 02:26:52.000 --> 02:26:54.319 I mean again, how much time do I have left? 2730 02:26:54.920 --> 02:26:56.959 Technically here on the clock you have you have ten seconds? 2731 02:26:56.959 --> 02:26:59.200 When can give you extra thirty seconds if you need? All? Right? 2732 02:26:59.440 --> 02:27:02.959 So within a triad, so people know when we're talking 2733 02:27:03.040 --> 02:27:12.760 mathematically here, individual can can maintain their opposition, their contrariety. 2734 02:27:13.200 --> 02:27:15.680 This is a matter of simple fact. And Jay said, 2735 02:27:15.680 --> 02:27:17.680 as a matter of simple fact, that can't even happen. 2736 02:27:18.159 --> 02:27:20.479 When I pressed him on this, he said, oh, that's 2737 02:27:20.520 --> 02:27:24.000 only within the trinity. You lose. That's wrong. No, yep, 2738 02:27:24.079 --> 02:27:24.879 I don't understand. 2739 02:27:24.879 --> 02:27:25.040 Wrong. 2740 02:27:25.040 --> 02:27:29.319 I'm saying, it's very very simple, you thought, because don't 2741 02:27:29.520 --> 02:27:37.040 into three the opposition. This is central understanding correctly what 2742 02:27:38.079 --> 02:27:39.879 I said, that's what What did you say? Then? 2743 02:27:40.079 --> 02:27:45.319 I said that diad in Patristic numbering example, right, it's 2744 02:27:46.200 --> 02:27:49.360 it's counting by division. Do you know what that is? 2745 02:27:49.399 --> 02:27:53.799 Of course, versus what counting by identity? You don't know 2746 02:27:53.799 --> 02:27:54.239 those things. 2747 02:27:54.319 --> 02:27:58.760 But that's not what it was. My question explaining to 2748 02:27:58.840 --> 02:28:04.840 you that you don't know that Tristan within theology counts triads. 2749 02:28:05.079 --> 02:28:06.959 If you had debated the Muslims, you would know, because 2750 02:28:07.000 --> 02:28:09.000 I have to do this. You said no, and you're 2751 02:28:09.040 --> 02:28:10.680 like a Muslim because you don't know how there's two 2752 02:28:10.680 --> 02:28:12.840 different ways. You said, no, there's two different ways to count. 2753 02:28:12.879 --> 02:28:17.040 You told you told Christian counting debate because you don't 2754 02:28:17.319 --> 02:28:20.159 you nor him understand this point. If you'd read Kogar 2755 02:28:20.559 --> 02:28:24.159 on this point, he says what I'm saying. I don't 2756 02:28:24.200 --> 02:28:26.399 have to have read Coongar right, because you know these 2757 02:28:26.440 --> 02:28:32.920 economies want dichotomy is not a relation of opposition, Elijah, 2758 02:28:33.000 --> 02:28:35.760 do you understand economy is not a relation of opposition? 2759 02:28:35.959 --> 02:28:36.319 Yes, it is. 2760 02:28:36.639 --> 02:28:39.399 It's all right, I'm you Dichotomy is not a relation 2761 02:28:39.479 --> 02:28:40.159 of opposition. 2762 02:28:41.360 --> 02:28:45.040 We're going to be paper because it talks about can 2763 02:28:45.399 --> 02:28:47.479 economy is not a relation of opposition. 2764 02:28:47.559 --> 02:28:49.959 That's the most absurd thing. For a second, you have 2765 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:51.239 you have, you have a choice. I'm gonna give us 2766 02:28:51.239 --> 02:28:51.719 a choice here. 2767 02:28:52.239 --> 02:28:54.319 Either A we can continue arguing this, but then we're 2768 02:28:54.360 --> 02:28:55.959 gonna have to skip the third topic altogether. 2769 02:28:56.319 --> 02:28:58.920 Do the timing of the debate. Uh, and what's what's 2770 02:28:58.959 --> 02:29:00.479 going on here? I want the paper? 2771 02:29:00.760 --> 02:29:02.760 Okay, So then so then if that's then we're gonna 2772 02:29:02.760 --> 02:29:04.799 agree to disagree on what that is and we can 2773 02:29:04.840 --> 02:29:06.879 talk about things later. But I think we're gonna leave 2774 02:29:06.879 --> 02:29:08.639 it there. Okay, We're gonna take a couple minute break here. 2775 02:29:08.760 --> 02:29:10.079 Before we do that, I want to read a couple 2776 02:29:10.120 --> 02:29:12.719 more of the superchats. Remember, if you guys are leaving superchats, 2777 02:29:12.760 --> 02:29:14.959 we'll read them as we go along. We appreciate you 2778 02:29:15.000 --> 02:29:17.799 guys doing so. We have Jay Betteley or said Tim, 2779 02:29:17.799 --> 02:29:18.799 I'm sure you're a decent guy.