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Speaker 1: Well, just like the tech issues that we recently had

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where our entire systems shorted. Sorry about that. Sometimes confusion

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comes into our lives. We often don't understand the reason

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why we live. We don't as to the purpose of

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our existence, and we're trying to find out exactly what

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it is we're supposed to be doing here. Now, many

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Americans have decided that, you know, the way that we

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find out who God is and what our purpose is

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is through Christianity. But when you approach Christianity, it's not

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as simple as you think. Sometimes you look around you

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as Protestants, there's in there, there's Evangelicals, there's the mainline denominations.

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Then you go out and then there's Orthodox, there's Catholic.

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But if you notice today with the gay flags in

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front of churches and the pastrixes, the female pastors, and

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the weird ideology, a lot of young people are finding

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out that the modern church perhaps may not be the

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best version of Christ's Holy Church. In fact, maybe just

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maybe the people of the past knew a little more

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than we did. When looking back in history myself, I

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found there's two churches. There's the Catholic Church, we'll call

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it in General and the Orthodox Church. They both claim

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to be the true church. One follows the papacy, it

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looks like the other one doesn't. And yet at the

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same time, when you ask either of them, really, where

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should I go to church? They'll say, well, most of

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them you should go to Catholic, but you know you

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can go to Orthodox if it has an Orthodox to

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say you can, but Catholic, but you should go to Orthodox.

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Speaker 2: So why do we have both? Then? Which one is true?

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Speaker 1: Which one is the way to be a part of

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Christ's eternal body, to be a part of the living,

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breathing unit of Christ. Joining me today to discuss the

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true Church, whether it's Orthodox or Catholicism. We are talking

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to experts in their field. Jaydyer. He's a podcast host,

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author of many books, an avid reader. Jay Dyer, welcome

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back to the show. Let us know who you are.

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For those that are just joining for the first time.

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You want to explain a little bit about what it

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means to be an Orthodox or what that even you

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know defines itself as in a little bit about where

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people can find your podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jay Dyer, I have been Orthodox since about twenty seventeen,

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and prior to that was Roman Catholic from many years,

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pretty dedicated Latin mass go or was raised Protestant in

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the Reformed Baptist and Reform tradition. And yeah, I would

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say that what Orthodox Christianity is is we believe it

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is the Church of the first millennium, still preserved and

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still holding to those synodal traditions that are essentially found

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within any of the canonical Orthodox churches throughout the world.

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So we think it is the church that Christ established.

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We think that it doesn't change. There might be political

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geopolitical issues that happened, but the fundamental constitution and beliefs

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of the Church do not change. And so we take

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truth to be the most important category over things like

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numbers and things like that. And me personally, you can

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find me at Jays Analysis dot com and a fourth

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hour host of the Alex Jones Show for the last

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five or six years, and I write for the Sam

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Hid Show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, jack of all trades and also an incredible guy

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behind the scenes. He's the real deal, by the way.

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And joining me to represent Catholicism, we'll find out a

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lot about it. Timothy Gordon's also podcast host, pretty influential

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in this field and all around.

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Speaker 2: I'd say, you consider yourself a theologian. Correct? Awesome, you

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hear me? Yeah, there we go for a second. All right,

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I'm a tomistic philosopher, trained trained graduate philosophy, but but

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I taught theology for many, many years. And yeah, the

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Roman Catholic Church is the center piece of of what

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I do. Uh, physics, metaphysics, ethics, politics, That's what my

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podcast is on. Rules for Introgrades is the name, and

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I try to clarify. I try to clarify the issues

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because the Catholic Church receives so much attention. There's so

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much mis and disinformation out there. A lot of it's

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genuinely confusing to people, and it's a big tent. We

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have orthodoxy that always has to be separated from the

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chaef of heterodoxy, and there's been some confusion. Some of

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it is legitimate confusion, and some of it is confusion

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that has been stoked by media and opponents of the church.

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But a lot of it's been legitimate in the last

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sixty years. So I try to be a voice of clarity,

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a lay voice of clarity, and that's what I do

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on my podcast, The Rules for Introgrades. Timothy Gordon awesome.

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Speaker 1: We'll be talking a little bit about their podcast later

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on and the rules in just a few moments. My

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name's Elijah Schaeffer and it's approximately seven forty five pm

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Eastern time in the United States. We are usually live

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right now Monday, Wednesday, Friday at seven pm Eastern time.

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We usually don't have our production booth blow up in

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the middle of things. But if you want to know this,

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we can do what we should always do and we'll

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just blame the Jews. Now, I'm totally kid, that's not

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what we're going to do. Thank you guys for joining me.

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Are going to be reading the super chats periodically throughout,

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so you send them in. I see Rachel Wilson's in

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there for twenty dollars saying to you guys, much love

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to Tim and Jay, much love to Alive for hosting.

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Speaker 2: America will become Orthodox, America will become holy? Will it?

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I go about that and so much more.

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Speaker 1: Here another episode of The Riff Live right now, Let's

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start the show.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Rift. You can find us at

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riftv dot com.

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Speaker 1: New articles every single day on culture, politics, and religion.

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Also us a litt announcement for your joining us for

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the first time. This is a new network, it just

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launched a few weeks ago, and this is one of

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our shows, so we're hammering out some of the details.

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We have a couple of new shows launching, including Joel Webbin,

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who is a Protestant that is coming on and doing

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a new show for our network. We're very excited about that. Plus,

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Sarah Stock has a new channel. If you don't know,

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it's Sarah Stock on YouTube. She's also launching a new program.

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And we also have a new White House show with

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the Gateway Pun and Jordan Conradson. We're launching on September fifteenth,

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So God is good. We got our security clearances for

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the White House and we're very happy to be here anyway.

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Joining us today are my guests Timothy Gordon and Jay Dyer.

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They're both infamous, i should say, in their own right,

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and have both come on the show previously to discuss

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what it means to be Orthodox, what it means to

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be a Catholic, and so if you want to watch

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those episodes, you can go back. You can type in

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their names and you can find them. They're very, very

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very good, very developed individuals and thinkers. Let's go in

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and let's talk about what we're gonna be doing. So

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we're gonna be mainly talk covering three topics today. One

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topic is going to be whether Christ did or did

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not establish a visible head of church. We're talking about

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apostolic succession in its own way, what really defines the church?

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You know, the Orthodox and Catholic disagree on that. Plus

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topic two, we're gonna be talking about the Holy Spirit

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does or does not hypostatically proceed from the Sun, So

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we're gonna kind of talk about the Trinity, talk about.

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Speaker 2: What's going on there.

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Speaker 1: This is a very interesting topic, especially for me background

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and Protestantism. And number three, we're talking about the Divine

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essence is or is not absolutely simple and for the

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affirmative position not composed of any parts or potencies. Now,

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in the middle of these topics will have a normal

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struct Sure, there will be an opening statement, there will

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be a rebuttal, there will be a cross examination and

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a closing.

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Speaker 2: It's a very formal debate.

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Speaker 1: So if you're not familiar with that style on this channel,

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we're trying it for the first time today. Because these

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are academics, they are not retarded like myself. But in

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the middle of these topics, we will have a little

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bit of a break, so these will be a little

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bit lengthy might want to take out notes, and we

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will also be asking a few other questions more relevant

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to the culture and topics and what their responses are

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as the Catholic and the Orthodox church. All right, Jay,

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we'll start with you with your opening statement. Our topic

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number one that we are discussing whether Christ did or

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did not establish a visible head of church. We're talking

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I believe the correct phrase apostolic succession.

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Speaker 2: I know you guys believe in the I know you

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guys believe in in uh they believe in in the

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in the papacy, right, and you don't correct?

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Speaker 3: We agreed on divine divine simplicity or act as purists?

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Speaker 2: First? Okay, out here a right that I have.

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Speaker 1: I have the opposite on my on my, on my,

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Let's go to that. So you said, uh, we'll start

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with the we have as topic three, but we'll we'll

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go to that one second.

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Speaker 2: Or you have one second or third? Which one the

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visible head of church? It's all over here, so I

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just have this one. All right, let's go.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to topic we'll change topic three the topic

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one here. Let's all the divine essence is or is

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not absolutely simple. Go ahead your opening statement, right.

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Speaker 3: So, if I look at scholastic dictionaries from Roman Catholic texts,

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we see that for God or for philosopher, Scholastic philosophy

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in general, pure act is defined as simple for perfection

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without any imperfection. It is free from any potency in

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the strictest sense. It is therefore unqualified perfection of existence,

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without any passive or limited potency. And this is from

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the dictionary Scholastic Philosophy. Aquitta says something very similar, and

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as does Etenial Sown the student rehive me the one

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of the premier tomas of the last century. In defining

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who God is, there is this beginning point that comes

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from Hellenic metaph physics. We would not, as Orthodox, necessarily

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agree with every you disagree with every usage of the

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word your act. But what we would say is that

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when I look at that definition and I compare it

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to the teaching of say same Maximus the Confessor in

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his famous two inter chapters, he begins to work by

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saying that God is not in himself as in as

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far as it is possible for us to know any

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kind of first principle. Nor is he in an intermediate state,

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nor is he in an end, nor is he any other concept.

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For he is indefinite, immobile, and infinite, since he is

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infinitely beyond any substance, any potentiality, and any actuality. So

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notice there he is not pure act in himself. He

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is not actuality in himself. He goes on to say

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in section four, God is not therefore a potentiality, nor

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is he a first principle, nor is he an actuality, nor.

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Speaker 2: Is he a first cause.

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Speaker 3: And he's citing from Aristoitilian categories and definitions.

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Speaker 2: There he goes on to say, though, that in another sense,

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we can.

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Speaker 3: Call God these things. And the reason for this is

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that for Orthodoxeology there's two very crucial key distinctions, or

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a name, the ways that we that we name God

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that are distinct. We name God first in terms of

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the intraternitarian life, or God in himself, and in that

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way we do not positively predicate of the divine essence.

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So even though tim will agree with me that there

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is a via negativa, Orthodoxeology has a different conception of

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what apathetic theology is so when we speak of the

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divine essence, we do not speak of it as identical

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to anything much less identical to pure act, first act act.

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Speaker 2: As purists, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: The divine essence is unknowable, imparticipable, unapproachable, and it is therefore,

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strictly speaking apathetic.

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Speaker 2: How do we know God? Then?

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Speaker 3: If God is apapatic in this sense, well he's not

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only essence. God is also person and the Saint John

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Damascus says multiple times in on the Orthodox Faith, the

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key to all heresies is to confuse the distinction between

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nature and person. The Orthodox Church, that distinction is as

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quote real or as strong as the distinction between the

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persons themselves. So while in Tim's philosophy he would agree

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agree that the Father and the Son are really distinct,

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that real distinction is somehow not applicable to anything else

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in the triad, be it God's attributes, operations, or the

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distinction between nature and person itself, which is conceived of

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as only mental or volitional intmistic philosophy. And I would

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argue that in Roman Catholic theology that holds as well,

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because the fourth latter in council accepts the Peter Lombard

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definition of what simplicity is known as identity thesis. This

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is denzing or four thirty two that person and essence

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are essentially identical, but they're only mentally or rationally distinct.

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Thus God is his essence. So notice for them, God

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is first and foremost essence. But the Orthodox position is

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very different. And Maximus goes on to describe the way

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that we do speak of God in positive catavatic categories,

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and that is because the energies are positive and known

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to us. Those energies are his operations.

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Speaker 2: Where does this come from?

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Speaker 3: Is this something that the medieval Byzantines made up? They

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just came up with this idea that energies are these

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things that God has that are other than him, and

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they are these other deities, these polytheistic parts of God.

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Absolutely not. In fact, we would argue that the only

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way to have divine simplicity consistently is to adhere to

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the divine simplicity of God. Yes, but also that his

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operations are really there and really different from him. How

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do I know that? The Coppadition's made a plastic analogy

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for how this is the case by looking at the

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difference between a man is nature and the work of

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nature and the product of nature. Allow me to quote

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Saint John Damascus briefly here for that specific distinction. John

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Damascus says that observe that energy, capacity of energy, and

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product of energy and the agent of the energy are

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all different. Or the Orthodox Church we call these things

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the difference between nature, person will, essence and operation or

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energy and the effect of that energy. Energy is the

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efficient and essential activity of the nature. So notice that's

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the first statement from John Damascus. The same statement is

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made by Saint Gregory. Excuse me, Saint Maximus in his

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at the Lassios sixty three he says that God's supernatural

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energy is the identical energy that the Father of the

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Son and the Spirit possess. That also the saints are

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deified by Saint Gregora Nissa says, and against Unumias two,

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the common nature is identified by common energy. Saint Grege

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Nissa says again, the essential invisible God becomes visible by

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his energies. He is not visible in his essence, but

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in some of his operations, And to quote Saint Cyril

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of Alexandria, things with the same energy are acknowledged to

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be of the same essence. So energy proceeds from essence

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and is the proper signifier in work or operation of

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that nature or essence. Now, natures don't operate. Eight persons

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with nature's operate. And this is why for John Damascus

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in Book three, section fifteen, there are two wills, two energies,

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but one divine hypostasis working in and through those two wills,

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and those two energies now to shift out of the

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philosophical definitions and statements that we have. And I would

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add that definition, by the way, is accepted at the

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six Ecumenical Council, where the Confession of Saint Sophronius, pulling

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from the explicit teachings of Saint Maximus the Confessor on

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essence and energy, two wills, two operations, and by the way,

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many energies, to cite John Damascus in book one, that

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is accepted at the six Ecumenical Council as the teaching's

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crystological definition. Again it's called the Confession of Saint Sophronius.

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You can find the Oxford text available on Amazon. Thus,

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even in the patristic teaching of the Roman Catholic Church,

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three minutes from the early few centuries achieved from the

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early seventh centuries. In six eighty six to Me sixt

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eighty one, at the six Secumenical Council, we have the

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affirmation of the teaching of Saint Sophronius and Saint Maximus

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that John of Damascus encapsulates in his later text of

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on the Orthodox Face, reflecting on the essence synergy sanction,

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which is seen most clearly in Believe it or not,

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not triadic speculations, but in Christology. In other words, it

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is the uncreated energies that Saint Ceerl says, deify us

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in this life through feeding.

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Speaker 2: On the flesh.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be interested to hear how a person

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who believes in the real presence, that is the body

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bloatsole in divinity, president of Christ in the Eucharist, as

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the Roe Mecallity Church claims to confess how this is

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possible given that in the Orthodox conception, it's only possible

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given that the uncreated energies, as Saint Ceerl says in

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the two Letters to exth Census, deify the flesh and

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thus make it the thing that we participate in to

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be deified. He says in the two Letters to Sixtensus

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and this is reflected and then teaching the Council of Ephesis,

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by the way in the anathemas, that we do not

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eat the flesh and blood of some man, but the

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deified flesh of the God Man, made divine, not by

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the divine essence, but by his uncreated energy and immortality.

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Speaker 2: So Saint Cyril of Alexandria.

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Speaker 3: The fourth act, the third Actumenical Council of Ephesis is

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pretty explicit when we get into the actual teachings of

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how we participate in divine life. On the other hand,

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in the Roman Catholic Church, if I read from the

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teaching of Ludwig ott Louis, God says that them the

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grace that we receive in the Roman Catholic Church and

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theirs and their and their belief sanctifying grace is a created,

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supernatural gift, really distinct from God. In other words, the

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very thing that you are participating in, which by the way,

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point number one says is a creation. Point number five says,

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is a participation in the divine nature. I'm pretty sure

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the divine nature isn't a creature. So I don't know

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how we participate in God. If the thing that we're

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participating in is a quote quote created gift really different

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from God again quotes from a famous Roman Catholic agmatic manual. Lastly,

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I would say that there are a couple more examples

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that I think are very difficult for people who deny

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this distinction, particularly when it comes to what are called Theophanes.

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The often these are manifestations of God in the Old Testament.

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I'll give you a few that I think are really problematic.

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How much time to have one? You can have it,

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you can have. Got a couple more.

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Speaker 2: I got a couple more examples, and then I'll be done. So.

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In number twelve we read that the Lord said to Moses, Aaron,

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and Miriam, come you three to the tabernacle of meeting.

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And they came out. The Lord came down in the

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pillar and in the cloud, and he stood in the

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door of the tabernacle and called out to Aaron and Miriam.

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Speaker 3: Now noticed that we have this day authentic manifestation in

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the Old Testament where God comes down and specifically said

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to stand there. When we go back to the situation

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in Genesis. In Genesis thirty one, we read that the

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Angel of the Lord, who identifies himself as the I

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am the God who appeared to you at Bethel is

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there talking to Jacob. And that same I Am that

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appears in time and space is also talking to Jacob

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and calls himself the form of God. This is out

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of the subtuision text. The form of God was seen

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by Jacob. And then we have another statement that it

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is the Im that he wrestles with, because Jesus at

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the end of John one says that he is.

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Speaker 2: The gate the doorway.

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Speaker 3: To have the ladder of Jacob and the angels descending

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and descending on the Son of Man signifies and shows

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that he was the one wrestling with Jacob. Jacob wrestled

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with an actual form or being in time and space

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that manifested in an energetic manifestation, as the Church has

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always taught. But after Tomism and after the Middle Ages,

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the Roman Cacolic Church moved away from this and decided

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and said that these manifestations are rather created images, holograms, angels,

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et cetera, whatever imagery you want to use, they're not

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the uncreated energies of God in time and space. Why well,

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because of divine simplicity, it's not possible for God to

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be present in time and space in these ways, because

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God would then undergo change. But I want to remind

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them as I close in this point, that this theoteny

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argument is actually the basis and the predication, the presupposition

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for the doctrine of the incarnation. It is not the

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divine Essence that became incarnate. It is this second person who,

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according to Philippians too willfully limited himself to step into

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time and space in a mode of being that the

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Father and the Son did not enter into. So the

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reductionist act as purest position will undercut not just the

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ofphanies and the real manifestations of the glory of God

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in time and space.

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Speaker 2: The Leviticus nine says.

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Speaker 3: This is the glory of God that appeared God's glories

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under creature John seventeen. Thus this refutes the Roman Catholic

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simplicity position.

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Speaker 2: And just to clarify, so thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: Since you guys do have a bit of a rigid structure,

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do you prefer to do an opening statement and then

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do rebuttals after?

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Speaker 2: Do you want to rebuttle him and then do an

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opening statement, I'll do. I'll do opening statement. Okay, let's

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go ahead. And so representing the Catholic side.

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Speaker 1: If you're just joining the stream, shout out as well

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to in the chat crucible, Andrews said, it's a one

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hundred dollars super chat. We're not going to do weird

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sound effects for this, will keep it very very serious

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to the point. But it also said thank you Andrew

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for that. He said, Andrew Wilson here, thank you very

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much for hosting this. And Andrew's Orthodox correct, I think correct.

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So that's cool that you're tuning. I appreciated. I's all

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your wife there too. So go ahead, Timothy your opening statement,

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you have a ten minutes, give or take. Since he

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took an extra two minutes, will give you two if

402
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you need it. You have twelve minutes on the clock.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead. Pure act is the basic expression of God's perfection,

404
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all powerfulness, his essayity. That means He's self subsisting, his necessity,

405
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his eternality, his simplicity. So God as pure act according

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to classical theism Western definitions of God, which has included

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broadly speaking, it's even included a lot of Orthodox thinkers

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Eastern thinkers over the last two thousand years. It is

409
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the most basic expression of who and what God is.

410
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So when you think pure act, because this is the

411
00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:07,799
term of pure metaphysics, think pure being. By pure being

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we mean being without any becoming or potency mixed in.

413
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There are no non actualized potencies that are mixed in

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with the person of who God is now. Just so

415
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we are clear, Jay told me the last time we

416
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debated that mistaking a single aspect of God's reality means,

417
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in the context of Islam, worshiping a false God rather

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than worshiping the true God. Arrently, I would say, I

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hope for all of our sakes, Jay's sakes here too,

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because he's a friend and he's a good guy, that

421
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this isn't true. Because mistaking God as being a composite

422
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of act with passive potency is the most fundamental mistake

423
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,599
you can make as to who God is. Passive potency

424
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means something else can change you. And we have to

425
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talk about passive potency today. The fact that Jay has

426
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asserted on multiple occasions that something else can change God

427
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through this term passive potency. So there's some basics of

428
00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:19,519
classical theism. One God cannot change. This is in Malachi

429
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three six. It's reflected in James one seventeen. God can't change.

430
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This is a basic pillar of classical theism. God cannot

431
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be affected by anything else. It's reflected in Acts seventeen

432
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twenty four to twenty five. Thirdly, God cannot fail to

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be what he is. The principle of necessity only applies

434
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to him in this sense that he is utterly perfect,

435
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and he cannot be anything other than what he is.

436
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This is reflected in Matthew five, verse forty eight. Now,

437
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if God were not pure act, and by this we

438
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,119
just mean pure being, there are so many equivocations that

439
00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:02,279
are going to be made here on terms I just

440
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,240
mean pure being, Thomas, and the Aristotelian lexicon that he's

441
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working out of just means pure being with no becoming possible.

442
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The basic definition between a creator and a creature is

443
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there's only one creator. He's got to be pure being

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itself outside the categories of time and space. Anything inside

445
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the categories of time and space has to be a mixture,

446
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a composite of act and potency, form and matter, substance

447
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and accidents. There are seven modes of composition, and anything

448
00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:36,039
inside the categories that was created by God has to

449
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be a creature who is a composite of these things.

450
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But God has to be immutable, meaning he cannot change.

451
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He cannot change because he's outside the categories. He must

452
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be eternal. Nicia actually anathematizes anyone who says that he's

453
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anything other than the eternal, meaning there's no change in God,

454
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meaning God cannot exist prior to X and after X.

455
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That would that would earn one the anathematizations of Nicea.

456
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He can't be composite. And if if God were mixed

457
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in the way that Jay is saying, act with potency

458
00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:15,200
in any manner, he would be composite. I mean there's

459
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a composer behind God, because one would have to be

460
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composed of their parts by some posterior principle, and that

461
00:24:24,279 --> 00:24:26,799
composer itself would be God, not God. So he has

462
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This is why he has to be simple. Passive potency

463
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,599
means that that something else can change God. This always

464
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:37,319
implies temporality, so God would not be perfect. This is

465
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,480
a complete and total rejection of all classical theism. That

466
00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:44,000
doesn't make it good or bad. I'm just stating it

467
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from the outset that that classical theism requires God to

468
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be pure act for him to even obtain all the

469
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properties that we're talking about. Now. What Jay will say

470
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is that God transcends logical category. If God truly transcended

471
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logical categories for one thing, this would require that we

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predicate being unifically, and for a Roman Catholic, we never

473
00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:15,160
predicate being unifically. We always predicate being analogically. So that's

474
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,960
not true. Because we predicate being analogically, we can actually

475
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,480
talk about God in one way and one way only.

476
00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:25,480
That's what the analogy is. But if it were true

477
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:31,759
that we predicated God unifically and and he transcends logical categories,

478
00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:33,480
then there would be no debates. We wouldn't be able

479
00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:35,119
to do what we're doing right now, wouldn't be able

480
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,279
to identify God, name God. There'd be no dogma, no councils,

481
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,920
no scripture, anything that's important to Catholics or Orthodox. So

482
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,000
there's an absolute equivocation on this idea of analogical versus

483
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:55,240
unifical predication of being. Now that because there are so

484
00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:57,559
many different terms between the East and the West, I

485
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,960
will say this, there is unintentional equivocation, meaning good faith

486
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,759
equivocation between the Eastern thinkers and the Western thinkers on

487
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,319
what pure act is and what it requires, but in

488
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,319
some sense, in the sense of meaning being pure being

489
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:20,200
without becoming. We have affirmations of one sense or another

490
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,640
of pure being by even Eastern thinkers like Gregory of Nissa,

491
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:31,359
Maximus the Confessor, Athanaceous, John Damascene, even Gregory Palamus, though

492
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,079
he puts forward a kind of alternative theory, the heartline

493
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,000
distinction between God's essence and energies, and more recently scholars

494
00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:47,160
like doctor Bradshaw admits that God must be pure act.

495
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,079
Now I'll just run through a few of these, and

496
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,480
against Eunomias two, we have Gregory of Nissa saying, except

497
00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,839
for the divine essence, nothing is uncreated, meaning the divine

498
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,640
essence alone is uncreated. This is good because for God

499
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,400
to be God, for there to be a real distinction

500
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,319
outside of the Uziah of God would be to posit

501
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,440
a second God. Gregory of Nissa also says, and again

502
00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:15,200
he's operating on an Eastern equivocal definition, so I'm not

503
00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:17,839
saying that he means exactly what Thomas means, but he

504
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,039
means the important part of it, that God is pure being,

505
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:23,400
and that if he were any bit of potency passive potence,

506
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,640
he would have to be inside the ten categories of existence.

507
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:29,599
He says, the untouched and formless God is free from

508
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,920
all composition and likewise the only begotten. So this proves

509
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,079
a couple important things at once. That because God is

510
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,039
the untouched and formless God, free from all composition, that

511
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,240
means any of the seven modes of composition, most importantly potency.

512
00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:50,440
Same thing with the Sun. That's Gregory of Nissa. Maximus

513
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,119
the Confessor says God is the active and inexhaustible state

514
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,319
of all actualization. The important aspect of what he's saying

515
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,799
is that he is being. God is pure being, without becoming,

516
00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:07,119
no becoming, mixed in, no potency. Maximus also says, for

517
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,759
it is not natural to contemplate any change in God.

518
00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:12,799
Of course, this has been anathematized right at the beginning

519
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:15,240
at Nicea to say that there's any change in God,

520
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,839
in whom we cannot conceive of any movement whatsoever. So

521
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,839
there can be no admixture of change in God. And

522
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,079
again this is basically obvious to everyone. Uh Saint Athanasius

523
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,440
says God is holy what he is, he means, no potency,

524
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:36,359
no division. I'm just demonstrating here that there are Eastern

525
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,759
thinkers who are operating out of the basic existential fact

526
00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:44,440
of God as pure act Just think John of Damascus

527
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,799
says God is uncreated, immutable, and not composed. So composing

528
00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:51,279
doesn't just mean act potency. It means any of the

529
00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:56,400
other six modes of UH possibly composing God. Now we

530
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,160
can reduce this to a syllogism to prove it, since

531
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,559
we're debating. After all, this comes out of Theologia one

532
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,839
nine one basic. First premise, whatever has passive potency can

533
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,000
be changed or moved from potentiality to actuality by something else.

534
00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:17,079
By definition, this is what passive potency is. Second premise

535
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,279
is God can't be changed because we all agree on

536
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,240
that premise, and the conclusion is therefore God has no

537
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,480
passive potency. It's important to note for logic nerds that

538
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:32,200
this can be propositionalized. You can use symbolic logic to

539
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,880
prove that this is true. I won't go through the

540
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,680
symbolic logic, but it's important that people know this ought

541
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,519
to be sacricynct for any of us. Whatever has passive

542
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,920
potency can be changed or moved by another. We don't

543
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,440
agree that that can be done with God. Since God

544
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,160
can't be changed it's been anathematized at NICEA. We have

545
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,119
to say God has no passive potency, and Jay has

546
00:29:56,119 --> 00:30:00,519
said otherwise multiple times recently in the last year eight months.

547
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:06,880
So there's a simple way of explaining this to people

548
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,640
the analogy of an automobile, since we're using all these

549
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:16,680
terms composition, pure act, potency, whatnot. Composed of parts is

550
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,400
how automobiles and all things operate. Think of your car,

551
00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:24,240
a drive shaft, the wheels, the windows, the chassis, whatever.

552
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,720
They are dependent on an external assembler. A composite is

553
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,640
ontologically posterior to its parts. If God had parts to

554
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,720
you depend on a composer, a God behind the God.

555
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,720
This is not a mere logical category. This is a fact.

556
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,680
This is an existential fact. It contradicts his assayeity, meaning

557
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,759
he is self subsistent, and his necessity to say otherwise. Now,

558
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,680
where you know, Jay, I think is equivocating or misunderstanding

559
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:06,079
Tomism is on several of the terms. They're just real

560
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,279
terminological differences that I think of good faith are eluding.

561
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:17,319
Now he will confuse platonism, neoplatonism, and aristotomism. These are

562
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:22,240
three separate systems that disagree radically, and they have informed

563
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,759
Christianity at different parts, But the Catholic Church is informed

564
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:31,359
by aristotomism, which I said predicates being analogically, which goes

565
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:32,759
right to the heart of what we're going to be

566
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:39,440
debating with Palamus later. We don't use Platonism, which predicates

567
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,920
being unifically. I know the sounds absolutely insane, The terms

568
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,759
are are bizarre, but it's really really important because for

569
00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:50,880
us to even be able to speak about God, we

570
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:54,599
have to predicate being analogically. That means we have to

571
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,599
be in aristotomist mode. Jay has said before he thinks

572
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,079
that Aristotle and Thomas made being a genus. They explicitly

573
00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:11,119
reject this in Platonism. So the Tomistic predication is never nivical.

574
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,559
Being is never a genus. This goes right to the

575
00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:21,680
heart because of these equivocations. There are some basic terminological difficulties,

576
00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:25,960
confusions equivocations on that he makes on essence versus nature.

577
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,200
These are very technical in matter, very much energies versus accidents,

578
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,599
act versus operations, Like pure act doesn't mean God is

579
00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,079
pure action. It means God is pure being. And this

580
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,839
confuses the matter, and I think that might literally be

581
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,680
all that we're debating at the end of the day,

582
00:32:44,839 --> 00:32:48,960
because God is pure being and even Eastern thinkers accept it.

583
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,400
Passive versus active potency, and relations of opposition versus contrariety,

584
00:32:55,599 --> 00:33:02,599
all of these together mean that necessarily think Jay is

585
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,759
intending to say that God is not pure being without

586
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,440
any becoming. We have to get to the heart of

587
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,240
the matter, all right, and at a time on that.

588
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: I'll be adding another minute here Clark for a rebuttal,

589
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,880
because he went over a little bit there.

590
00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:15,119
Speaker 2: I was saying it.

591
00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:16,599
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because I was I was trying to,

592
00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:20,160
you know, execute some things you were saying, and Groc

593
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,720
went just as complex. He was like the onontological exigency

594
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,319
of also the dogmatic corpus. I was like, wow, when

595
00:33:26,319 --> 00:33:27,839
you have two people here there speaking at a level

596
00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:32,400
of the ai' I'm asking the question. You know, this

597
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,039
is a very complex debate has been going on for what,

598
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,319
in many ways well over a thousand years right now

599
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,640
as we're talking. And that's kind of an interesting point

600
00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:44,519
is that, you know, people that are Protestant are not

601
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,359
used to these complex, deep discussions.

602
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: And the things are like what do we want to

603
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:48,960
do today.

604
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,559
Speaker 1: In Protestantism, And sometimes it's like, let's all be gay

605
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:53,759
pastors and everyone's like yay, and it's like okay.

606
00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: But you know, people have.

607
00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: Been thinking about some of these topics for for centuries,

608
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,440
you know, even for a millennia if you look at

609
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,119
the actual topic here and when we talk about what's important.

610
00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:04,759
I just want to remind you guys, if you're watching that,

611
00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:09,480
take notes and rewatch, rethink, re listen, and try to

612
00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:13,960
understand the complexity of their arguments. Also crucible. Andrew Wilson,

613
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,760
for another one hundred dollars, said, and here's another. He

614
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,559
also yelled out, say my names. I don't know why,

615
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,119
We'll just say your name Andrew Wilson in the chat.

616
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,119
It's good to see you here. We're very happy to

617
00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:27,360
have you. He also sent another chat for one hundred dollars.

618
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,519
He said, here's the last one. Take these guys out

619
00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:31,599
to dinner, Elijah and yourself love you all.

620
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would.

621
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys are free afterwards, but

622
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,599
we'll check that out. If you're just joining for the

623
00:34:36,599 --> 00:34:38,239
first time, don't forget to like the video, don't forget

624
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:38,679
to subscribe.

625
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 2: It's very important that you do.

626
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: And I want to jump into what I believe to

627
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,039
be the most important part, which is give them a

628
00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:48,599
chance to respond to each other. Particularly before we do that. Though,

629
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,119
just a reminder to check out one of our sponsors

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637
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640
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only Western countries, and we are not being defined by

660
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any Zionism or any sort of outside influence that will

661
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try to destroy our core message, which is to save

662
00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:17,039
Western civilization. That starts now and here with what we're discussing,

663
00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:20,599
especially with Christianity. Now, let's go over to Jay Dyer.

664
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:23,840
I want to give you an example here. Jay is

665
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:30,119
representing the Orthodox tradition in this discussion. You have six

666
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:32,079
minutes on the clock. If you want to use, I'll

667
00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:33,320
give you a minute. You want to use the minute here?

668
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:34,719
Do you want to use a minute on the cross

669
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,039
examination of the clothing statement?

670
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: I can tell your minutes up, I'll go and use

671
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,519
it here, because he touched on a lot of things.

672
00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:44,119
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, you have six minutes on the clock. Your

673
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:45,119
time starts now, all.

674
00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 2: Right, I'll work through this.

675
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,199
Speaker 3: So the first thing that he said that was a

676
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,679
basic theological mistake was that he identified God in the

677
00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:54,880
Divine Essence with asayity. Of course, all the three persons

678
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,320
have a sayity or self existence or our auto theos

679
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,559
in that system, if they're identical to the divine essence,

680
00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:05,440
except that he's not aware of Cappadocian theology, nor the

681
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,880
theology of Constantinople, one which accepted unanimously with explicit decree

682
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,480
the necessity to follow the Cappadocian dictum that the Father

683
00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:18,079
is identified as autotheos. But to identify the Divine Essence

684
00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:21,840
as autothaos is actually to introduce the later Christological and

685
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,519
Trinitarian heresy that the Calvinists introduced, that the Son and

686
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:27,960
the Spirit are also this autotheos because they share the

687
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:28,880
same divine essence.

688
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: So he's not aware of that.

689
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,519
Speaker 3: That's a classic theological problem. Next, I didn't say that

690
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,400
God changed. He's confusing the idea of what orthodox call

691
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,440
reciprocity with the idea that God undergoes change. What we

692
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,119
mean by that is that if you read the Book

693
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:46,119
of Amos, for example, God says he's going to destroy Israel.

694
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,119
Amos comes and praise and says the Lord, please don't

695
00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:51,559
do this, and God says, because you prayed, I'm not

696
00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:55,480
going to destroy Israel. That does not mean that God

697
00:37:55,639 --> 00:37:58,280
can't excuse me that God undergoes change. It means that

698
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,920
he is willingly condescended to engage in a creaturely reciprocity.

699
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,079
That means that God is first and foremost a divine person,

700
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:08,519
in particularly the person of the Father or the monarchea

701
00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:11,360
of the Father, which is a crucial Orthodox doction upon

702
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,159
which all of this is built, whether it's the essence center, yourstinction,

703
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,960
or these other distinctions. So, no, it is not the

704
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,599
case that creatures cause it divine essence to change or

705
00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:22,239
anything like that. In fact, I said that there's two

706
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,400
ways that we can name God. I guess he didn't

707
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:25,920
hear that, or he just wanted to do the quote

708
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,679
mind from the Eastern Fathers, ignoring, by the way, all

709
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,239
the places in those Eastern Fathers where they actually make

710
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,280
the arguments against his position. For example, a specifically cited

711
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,599
Maximus pointing out that the same energies that God possesses

712
00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:41,760
are the same energies that deify the saints. He says

713
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,559
in at the Lascios, which thus means that Trent is

714
00:38:45,599 --> 00:38:48,360
wrong when the Council, Trent says that we are justified

715
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,960
in baptism by the righteousness, not that God has himself,

716
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,400
but by the righteousness by which He.

717
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,159
Speaker 2: Makes us just.

718
00:38:55,079 --> 00:39:01,760
Speaker 3: And again, to cite Nissa, again, common nature is identified

719
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,199
by common energy. If you read on the Holy Spirit

720
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,800
by Saint Basil, you'll notice that the way that Basil

721
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,800
proves the Holy Spirit is fully divine with the Father

722
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,639
and the Son is because he possesses the exact same

723
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,400
energy or operation, because energy and operations signify nature. Now

724
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,199
interesting in the scripture is when we read about the

725
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,400
gifts of the Holy Spirit. In the Book of Corinthians,

726
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,280
when Paul talks about the spiritually gifts, he calls them

727
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,039
the gifts of the inner gaya of the Spirit, the

728
00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:30,880
energies of the Spirit. Tim could look at Strong's seventeen

729
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,400
fifty three and he would see all the multiple uses

730
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,000
throughout the New Testament, even places in the septuagen where

731
00:39:36,039 --> 00:39:38,920
inner gaia is used many times over, and that leads

732
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,480
me to the other issue he doesn't seem to be

733
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,920
well aware of in scholarship, which is if he could

734
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,679
read Michael Renee Barnes's book Dunamis in Gregor Nissa, where

735
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,800
there's this idea of the discussion of the power of God.

736
00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:53,639
And this is the Cappadocian dictum to utilize first and

737
00:39:53,679 --> 00:39:57,360
second actuality to help explain how it's possible for God

738
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,559
to create and yet to be perfect and to not

739
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:04,280
undergo change. So to say that God possesses first and

740
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,199
second act and that he doesn't always actualize all of

741
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:10,320
his powers does not imply any imperfection and deity, and

742
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,559
rather it implies God has free will. If I was

743
00:40:13,599 --> 00:40:16,559
a Toast or a Roman Catholic, and I identified the

744
00:40:16,599 --> 00:40:20,199
act of creating with the divine essence as they do

745
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,159
and with divine providence, then there's a necessary creation and

746
00:40:25,199 --> 00:40:30,039
a necessary providence, and a necessary world that occurs because

747
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:32,719
those things are isomorphically identical. This is called the modal

748
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:39,639
collapse argument. So that also refutes Tim's reductionist position. People

749
00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:44,280
can look at Radigalwitz's famous Oxford thesis on simplicity in

750
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,239
the Cappadocians. Moving on, he noted that as he went

751
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,119
through his quote Mind of the Eastern Church Fathers, he

752
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,480
sort of tried to fit this into an aristotomist scheme. Well,

753
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:58,920
if he was able to look into the scholarship on

754
00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:03,639
the Cappadocians, the transition from the Cappadocians into Cyril and

755
00:41:03,679 --> 00:41:06,760
Maximus and John Damascus in a very very recent, very

756
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,159
well known text by yan Zach Kuber called the Rise

757
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:11,760
of Christian Theology Naction Metaphysics, he would know that the

758
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,480
Cappadocians were not working with a two tiered cause effect

759
00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:19,519
Aristotelian scheme. They're working more so with a neoplatonic scheme.

760
00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:22,360
I'm not advocating for neoplatonism. I'm saying that when the

761
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,440
neoplatonic philosophy is used by the Cabo Doocians, and thus

762
00:41:26,639 --> 00:41:29,599
that model and that tendency to speak that way is

763
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:32,760
accept a particularly a Constantinople, one which by the way

764
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,840
is called close and had out of communion with Rome,

765
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,480
which is the council that defines the Trinity. It has

766
00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:39,760
nothing to do with aristotomism, and so this is a

767
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,519
kind of a revisionist anachronistic approach where they will take

768
00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:47,039
things and reread the tonistic positions into quote minds from

769
00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:51,079
the Church fathers. Because as I noted, as Gregor of

770
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:54,679
Nissa says, the invisible God becomes visible by his energies.

771
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,079
He is not seen or known in his essence, but

772
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,480
in his operations. And that's from on the Beata Toudes

773
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,000
section four. So divine energies are what come down to us.

774
00:42:04,119 --> 00:42:06,679
It is not the mere created effects, but the actual

775
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,519
participation in the attributes, energies and life of God. That's

776
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:13,960
not a created thing. Jesus says in John seventeen, he

777
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,159
came to give us a share in the glory that

778
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,239
he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.

779
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,159
Saus it is a real participation in uncreated glory. God's

780
00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:24,760
glory is not a creature. The glory and the grace

781
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,480
itself is what we partake of. So he says that

782
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,400
I engage in unifical predication. I never made an argument

783
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,039
that human terms or conceptions aren't unifical to the attributes.

784
00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 2: In fact, I would agree with analogical predication.

785
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 3: It's just that the analogies do not match up to

786
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,559
divine essence, they match up.

787
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:42,519
Speaker 2: To the energies.

788
00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 3: Hence Basil says in Letter two thirty four, what God's

789
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,800
essence says, we do not know, but rather it is

790
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,920
his energies, his operations that come down to us. Exactly

791
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,960
what Innessa says Jay Dyer. That was the rebuttal.

792
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: Now, obviously you can both rebuttal his opening statement and

793
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,239
his rebuttal here a few of his points. You are

794
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,360
going to have five minutes on the clock. Please with

795
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,639
the rebuttal, try to keep it within the direct timing.

796
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,760
If we're in halftime, you have an extra thirty seconds. Bleed,

797
00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:17,119
Go ahead, Timothy in Strong's since Jay cited it. Energeia

798
00:43:17,519 --> 00:43:24,199
in Paul means God's activity and grace, not specifically, not

799
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,119
a metaphysical part of God.

800
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: Distinct from his essence. This would this would repeat the

801
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:33,679
entire position. The Catholic theology captures this through uncreated grace.

802
00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:38,519
That's our position, God himself at work in us and

803
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,440
without it, does all of this without dividing him into

804
00:43:41,519 --> 00:43:45,800
essence versus energies. So it's sounded by that quote as

805
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,679
if it was essence energies, nothing of the sort. The

806
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,119
Orthodox move from a biblical usage of energeia, which again

807
00:43:53,199 --> 00:43:56,000
I warned you there would be this equivocation time and

808
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:58,639
time and time again, because entergaya is a word in

809
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,400
the Greek that's frequent here to metaphysics, and ergay it

810
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,159
means something very very different in the in the distinction

811
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:13,320
between essence and energies. It's a strong extrapolation, in strong

812
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,079
I think the most important question that Jay frequently asks sincerely,

813
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,840
I've heard him ask it sincerely many times. I'm not

814
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,480
being facetious here is he'll ask, And this is really

815
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,400
at the heart of the matter. Why if there's a

816
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:33,400
real distinction between If Catholics allow a real distinction between

817
00:44:33,559 --> 00:44:38,239
the three persons, why can't they abide a real distinction

818
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:42,400
between the divine essence and the energies? Which is a

819
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,920
it's a fair question. The answer is usiological, which means

820
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,719
when we're looking at the single essence of God, the

821
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:57,239
one thing which absolutely must be worshiped. This has been

822
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:02,000
affirmed at I see it too. Worship is latria worship

823
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:06,800
proper to the divine essence alone. We are talking about

824
00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:13,000
God's one uzia. Real distinctions within that Uzia can be

825
00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:16,519
made by what we've called relations of opposition between the

826
00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:21,679
three persons. That because in proper theology, the three persons

827
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:26,679
are inside that divine essence, that Uziah. This does not

828
00:45:27,079 --> 00:45:33,880
enable or rehabilitate or allow extra usiological distinctions between God's

829
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,400
essence and energies, because the entire point of the essence

830
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:41,360
energies distinction is that there is a real distinction, and

831
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,960
they don't have what we call virtual distinctions anyway. There's

832
00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:52,199
a real distinction between God's Uziah and his energies, his

833
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:59,280
operations that and they're uncreated, both whether you're talking philosophy

834
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,719
or classical theology. Anything that's uncreated is God. Anything that

835
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,679
is on the other side of creation as God. So

836
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,960
if you have an uzir that is the divine essence

837
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,800
of God and something else that's uncreated you're talking about,

838
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,079
you must be talking about two gods anyway. This is

839
00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:22,400
why we don't allow that distinction, any distinctions within the

840
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:29,559
single divine essence. The relations of opposition between fatherhood and filiality, filiation,

841
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,960
these are fine. These make sense. Relations of opposition makes

842
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,159
sense from within what we know to be the Trinity,

843
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,360
within the uziah of God. The Father is not the Son,

844
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,119
is not the Holy Spirit. But they're all the same

845
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:48,519
substance of God. But you can't make you can't distinguish

846
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,880
between two uncreated realities outside of space and time without

847
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,840
positing a new essence. So it's an usiological answer. It's

848
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,719
very basic, and hopefully you see that the former is

849
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,320
possible because monotheism requires one uzia of God, whereas the

850
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,519
latter would require seemingly two divine uzias. They won't say it,

851
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,079
they won't say that the position is too divine uzias

852
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:16,440
because it's one divine essence and then something else uncreated.

853
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,320
But it's required, it's necessarily follows incredible.

854
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,119
Speaker 1: So you know, in the midst of this you actually

855
00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:25,920
are under time by forty five seconds?

856
00:47:26,039 --> 00:47:28,559
Speaker 2: Can I? So if you want to keep going, yeah,

857
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:33,000
I would just say there's there's scriptural evidence against the

858
00:47:33,119 --> 00:47:39,480
essence energies distinction too. I'll jump into the Theophanes that

859
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,480
Jay has been talking about in Exodus three one to six.

860
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,599
At the burning bush, God himself speaks. It's not that

861
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:55,159
God some energies of God speak. God himself speaks. It's

862
00:47:55,199 --> 00:47:58,280
a direct quote. But pillar of cloud and fire the

863
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,519
Lord went before them, not a separate energy. Is a fact.

864
00:48:01,679 --> 00:48:06,280
The Lord himself, the substance of God, went before them.

865
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,920
So direct quote in Isaiah chapter six one to five.

866
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,079
In the vision Isaiah saw the Lord did not see

867
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:20,440
some likeness of the Lord. In John chapter twelve, verse

868
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,920
forty one, this is applied to Christ. At the transfiguration,

869
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:30,239
the apostles beheld Christ's glory participation. So this is important

870
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,559
because when we're talking about the divine essence, we're talking

871
00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:36,000
about the divine essence. When we're talking about some work

872
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:38,760
of God, we're talking about something that's distinct.

873
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,039
Speaker 1: Okay, So, Jay, I don't know if you were laughing

874
00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:44,320
at him or you're laughing in his argument, I showed

875
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,159
you're chuckling a little bit over there, and I couldn't

876
00:48:46,199 --> 00:48:47,639
help but notice.

877
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:48,599
Speaker 2: And so you know, as you.

878
00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: Cross examine and you go into this, you'll have exactly

879
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,840
five minutes to respond.

880
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,199
Speaker 2: Here the clock starts.

881
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,199
Speaker 3: Now go ahead, No but wait a minute, oh yes,

882
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:01,000
stop hold on, so I can cross the exam and interrupt,

883
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:02,400
right uh.

884
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I just I just

885
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,000
wanted you to do a little bit, if you is

886
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,199
that how you would like to that is that how

887
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,639
you'd like to do that that section, like to what

888
00:49:09,679 --> 00:49:11,639
were you going to say? Oh? No, I was gonna say.

889
00:49:11,679 --> 00:49:13,039
Speaker 1: I didn't know if you wanted to go back over

890
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:15,519
what he was just saying right now and then jump

891
00:49:15,519 --> 00:49:16,199
in there a little bit.

892
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: But uh, well, what we'd agreed to was cross exam

893
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,079
where we can where I cross exam him and I

894
00:49:21,119 --> 00:49:23,920
can abrupt him correct yea.

895
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally within reason. Yeah yeah, I mean yeah, exactly.

896
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 3: Potentially just gonna interrupt every five seconds.

897
00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny.

898
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,199
Speaker 3: I'm glad that you mentioned Exodus three because it was

899
00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:36,400
actually next to my notes, because I don't know if

900
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,760
you're familiar with Exdus twenty three, because God goes on

901
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,599
to describe who that being is. You said, the substance

902
00:49:42,639 --> 00:49:45,519
of God went before them. Do you think that the

903
00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:47,760
substance of God is the angel messenger?

904
00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: No, I think I think that God entered into I

905
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,920
believe that the Theophanes represent a creation of God. Are

906
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,800
they the substance of God or they represent they're not

907
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,760
the substance of God. You said the substance of God

908
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,039
went before them. Yeah, No, I didn't mean it that way.

909
00:50:05,039 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: Okay, But in Leviticus nine, it's said to be the

910
00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:09,199
glory of God that comes down.

911
00:50:10,679 --> 00:50:13,679
Speaker 2: It was an equivocation. Yeah, I'm just saying in God himself.

912
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's God himself for a representation, because that's

913
00:50:16,639 --> 00:50:17,079
a big deal.

914
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: We believe it's a representation. Okay.

915
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 3: In Leviticus nine, what comes down in that so often

916
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,159
he is called the glory of God is God's glory

917
00:50:26,159 --> 00:50:30,599
of creature? Yes, God's glory is a creature. Yes, you're

918
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:31,360
a polytheist.

919
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: No, you called the divice that glory is a creature

920
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,639
because it's created. Yes, God's glorious creator, like I said,

921
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:41,280
like I said at the beginning, well this is the

922
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,079
Catholic position, and you know it's the laughing at it

923
00:50:45,119 --> 00:50:48,000
to pretend that this isn't a one thousand year old dispute.

924
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 3: Are you about what you're saying? God's glory is created?

925
00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:53,519
God's glory is? Is it eternal?

926
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:55,079
Speaker 2: Yes?

927
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 3: So there's eternal. So you're a polytheist. God's glory is

928
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,800
eternally created. And this is a game.

929
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:03,559
Speaker 2: It's not a game.

930
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,199
Speaker 3: Okay, this is why it's let me know poetry, let's

931
00:51:07,199 --> 00:51:10,039
do fifteen second blocks. It's not a game. No, it's

932
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,239
you said that God's glory is eternal and it's a creature,

933
00:51:13,679 --> 00:51:17,199
that the angels are eternal, and no they're not. They're created.

934
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 2: No, they can be eternal with God like a footprint

935
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,320
in sand, to use Augustin's term.

936
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, are they created axt nilo? Well, of course, yeah,

937
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:34,840
they're not eternal, they're not uncreated. But with regard to glory,

938
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,280
it can't since it's uncreated. Since it is created. Which

939
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:39,800
one is it? Since it's created?

940
00:51:40,159 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 2: Jay, No, it's not to God because I'm created, separate

941
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,679
from the divine, as you to gods.

942
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,039
Speaker 3: I don't believe that that the glory is a creature.

943
00:51:52,639 --> 00:51:55,000
You may you messed up by saying that you belielory

944
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,599
is eternal. It's uncreated. It's the glory that.

945
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: Is it separate from the divine. Up to me, it's

946
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:04,280
my time because i'm because I'm asking you back questions

947
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,280
in my cross examination. All right, he's.

948
00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: Correct on that, Yeah, sure, all right, Yeah, so let's

949
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:10,719
let's leave the question.

950
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: Seventeen. Can I clarify my answer quickly if he allows you? Okay,

951
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,519
so we say it's not polytheism because it's created. It's

952
00:52:20,519 --> 00:52:24,679
that simple. God's glory is a creature. God's glory is

953
00:52:24,679 --> 00:52:25,079
a creature.

954
00:52:25,119 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 3: Wow, you understand that in Ezekiel, the son is identified

955
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:28,960
as the glory.

956
00:52:29,519 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 2: Is the son a creature? No, this is an equivocal definition,

957
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,880
because yeah, woman is the glory of man. That doesn't

958
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,679
mean that she's Uh. The unifical predication is the glory

959
00:52:41,679 --> 00:52:45,119
of the father. The son in this analogical sense can

960
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:47,000
be the glory of the Father. That doesn't mean so

961
00:52:47,039 --> 00:52:52,599
when is that God's glory as such is uncreated? Okay?

962
00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 3: And Judge's six it says that Yahweh turned his face

963
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,039
to get in. Is that Yahweh really in time of space?

964
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,079
Speaker 2: Or you don't know? Yeah, I'm not sure.

965
00:53:02,119 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 3: Well, maybe you should have looked into the theophanies if

966
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,440
you wanted to talk. Well, you've already admitted that God's

967
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:14,400
glory is a creature. Right, that's polytheism, an analogy. I mean,

968
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,639
I never disagree with anal analogical predication.

969
00:53:16,679 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 2: But you no, No, I don't mean analogic. I mean when

970
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,960
God turns his face. You think that a theophany means

971
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:31,440
requires logical body? Did Jacob rustle with Jesus it's a theophany?

972
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,400
Did he wrestle with Jesus. We say this is a

973
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:40,840
created participation. So the son prior to the incarnation was created. No,

974
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,920
this is what you said. It was a creature.

975
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: It's less than a So now you're a polytheist again,

976
00:53:45,519 --> 00:53:47,480
and there's multiple gods less than the creature.

977
00:53:47,639 --> 00:53:49,679
Speaker 2: I can't be a polytheist, Jay, if I keep saying

978
00:53:49,679 --> 00:53:54,440
that these are creations, I'm only a god. I separate

979
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,000
from the divine essence you're calling that is God, and

980
00:53:57,679 --> 00:54:01,920
that they're called that means they're not creatures.

981
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 3: You always uncreated. His glory is uncreated because he had

982
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,679
it forever in the triad in a triadic relationship. You

983
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,960
said God's glory is a creature. You just messed up

984
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:13,440
big time. That's idolatry.

985
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,159
Speaker 1: That's I'm done all right six the time, And yeah,

986
00:54:16,159 --> 00:54:17,880
I was gonna add another thirty seconds out of the clock.

987
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,360
Then anyways, you still have thirty seconds here for him

988
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,840
interrupting you with the questions. So you have an additional

989
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,559
minute on a future category if you'd like to, especially

990
00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:27,760
in the closing or on a separate topic.

991
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,199
Speaker 2: We'll go ahead and we will switch Outay, hold on,

992
00:54:30,199 --> 00:54:30,840
I have more time or.

993
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: No, I'll give you an extra minute because of him

994
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,639
interrupting the questions. You have thirty seconds left, and I'm

995
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,119
give you additional thirty seconds onto either to the closing

996
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,760
or on the section of the next topic. Let's go

997
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,119
over to Timothy. Go ahead, you have five minutes on

998
00:54:44,159 --> 00:54:46,320
the clock. You can be in your questioning.

999
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: Okay. If the energies are not the divine essence, there's

1000
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,679
a real distinction between them, but they're still uncreated. How

1001
00:54:54,679 --> 00:54:58,039
many such uncreated realities are there in God? Butzel says,

1002
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:03,519
there's infinite energies, So they're infinite uncreated existences. Are they

1003
00:55:03,639 --> 00:55:08,199
essences of their own? Their energies? Hence they're not essences? Oh,

1004
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,079
so what are they? But they're uncreated?

1005
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 3: So the operations, the attributes, and the thought, wills or

1006
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,199
ideas of God.

1007
00:55:17,079 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 2: So they're infinite. There are uncreated things? Well, I'm asking you. Yeah,

1008
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,679
God is one in many. But except so when we

1009
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,639
go to worship God, we worship infinite things. Yes, God's infinite.

1010
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:31,199
I don't know if you know that. No, do you

1011
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,320
worship an infinite number of properties?

1012
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,079
Speaker 3: When we say God is infinite, infinity is an infinite number?

1013
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,199
Speaker 2: Can I worship the energies alone without worshiping the divine essence.

1014
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,679
Speaker 3: No, because every person who acts in the every every

1015
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,000
act of God is triadic and thus includes all of God.

1016
00:55:52,199 --> 00:55:55,280
Speaker 2: But then, how are they really distinct because God does

1017
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,639
different things? What does that mean? Creating isn't walking on water? No,

1018
00:56:00,159 --> 00:56:02,960
if I can't worship them separately, in other words, if

1019
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,599
there's not a passive potency in them that is receptive

1020
00:56:06,639 --> 00:56:10,480
of my worship God's divine essence, his energies, I can't

1021
00:56:10,519 --> 00:56:14,679
worship them separately. So why call them really distinct? Because

1022
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,639
if you guys had virtual distinctions the way you should hear,

1023
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:19,559
this wouldn't be a problem. But because you say it's

1024
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:23,039
a real distinction in God, that's a problem. Modal collapse

1025
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:25,440
is why we don't. This is not modal collapse. Why

1026
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,960
I'm telling you why we don't have that? No? No,

1027
00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:31,159
But but then they're not really distinct. You just said they're.

1028
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 3: Distinct, because it can't be they are really distinct because

1029
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,519
the Father and the son are really distinct, and you

1030
00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:38,440
don't have a problem with that.

1031
00:56:38,559 --> 00:56:40,119
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with that because that's all

1032
00:56:40,119 --> 00:56:42,280
within one Uziah. Do you have a problem with constant

1033
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:46,039
standardizes are the operations from that one? You see, they

1034
00:56:46,079 --> 00:56:48,840
might be the operations from but they're different from the uzia.

1035
00:56:50,199 --> 00:56:54,000
Distinction applies to the substance. You're with me, right, So

1036
00:56:54,159 --> 00:56:57,039
like when we make a distinction about a thing, we're

1037
00:56:57,079 --> 00:57:03,599
making a distinction about the substance itself. Philosophy one on one. Yeah, yeah, sure, okay,

1038
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,800
So that's what I That's why I asked, why can

1039
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,199
we call them really distinct when they're they're somehow outside

1040
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:14,400
the uzia. They're different from it. They're really distinct, they're

1041
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,559
not virtually distinct. But I mean, do you want to end?

1042
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,079
You want answer? I want your answer?

1043
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:21,719
Speaker 3: Right, Well, I'm going to say what they say because

1044
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:24,280
I agree with them. They say that just as a

1045
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,159
person works, he's not identical to the work, and persons

1046
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:28,960
do different works.

1047
00:57:29,039 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: Okay, but that's a nonsense term. You can't say it's

1048
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,320
really distinct. That's fine. I'm just saying it doesn't work

1049
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:41,639
out because when something is distinct. No not, because when

1050
00:57:41,679 --> 00:57:45,159
something is distinct usiologically, that means that we would have

1051
00:57:45,239 --> 00:57:48,760
to act upon it. It would it would receive passive potency.

1052
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,679
Is that the persons, because they're the same. Do you

1053
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:56,639
think the persons aren't consubstantial they're really distinct? No, they're

1054
00:57:56,679 --> 00:57:59,719
really distinct within an uzia. Oh, I don't believe that.

1055
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,639
You don't believe the person of the trinity are within

1056
00:58:02,719 --> 00:58:04,679
the same us. I don't start with the essence. I'll

1057
00:58:04,679 --> 00:58:07,159
start with the fathers, the monarchical dark. Wait, you don't

1058
00:58:07,199 --> 00:58:10,440
believe that the three persons are consubstantart. I'm not asking

1059
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,079
where you started. I asked, do you think that the

1060
00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:16,760
persons are consubstantial? Yes? Or now? Of course they're consubstantial. Okay,

1061
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,880
I don't So they're not ziologically distinct. That's all I'm saying.

1062
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,679
I don't have your metaphysics. No, I don't have your metaphysics.

1063
00:58:22,719 --> 00:58:25,840
But the point is they can't be distinct if we're

1064
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,880
talking about two separate things. The persons are not too separate.

1065
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:30,440
The three persons are not too separate.

1066
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,039
Speaker 3: The relations of opposition the energy is a separate not Okay,

1067
00:58:34,199 --> 00:58:36,079
they're not separate, is my if I work?

1068
00:58:36,199 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 2: Is it separate? No? You screwed up there. No I didn't.

1069
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,360
You're just saying I screwed up the energy did I

1070
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,480
never said separate? Is it consubstantial or not? I said,

1071
00:58:44,519 --> 00:58:47,880
the persons are consubstantially. Yes, the energies aren't consubstantial with

1072
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,280
the essence, though for very distinct Okay, but then I

1073
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,559
can't worship them separately. Then the same here's here's another one,

1074
00:58:54,559 --> 00:58:58,360
that the essence is eternally unknowable. Do we fulfill our

1075
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,360
final end in the Beatific vision. We don't believe in

1076
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:05,559
the Bitua vision because we believe in the purpose of life. Okay,

1077
00:59:05,679 --> 00:59:08,360
when we look at you believe we see God in

1078
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:09,519
the end. We don't see God.

1079
00:59:09,559 --> 00:59:13,119
Speaker 3: That's not our union, the uncreated energies, and we have

1080
00:59:13,199 --> 00:59:16,800
a body. So I don't believe in a uh neoplatonic

1081
00:59:17,159 --> 00:59:18,360
satiating of the intellect.

1082
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,679
Speaker 2: You're a platonist. I'm not a platonist on the Beato vision. No,

1083
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:27,599
you know it's from origin. Yes, So you don't believe

1084
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,079
that we can fulfill the purpose of life and see

1085
00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:32,239
the divine essence ever?

1086
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,719
Speaker 3: Right, Nissa says, no one sees the divine essence ever,

1087
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,159
even in theton.

1088
00:59:36,719 --> 00:59:37,639
Speaker 2: Even in the sketon.

1089
00:59:38,599 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 3: Okay, I said, we see the divine energies, as the

1090
00:59:41,039 --> 00:59:44,239
Cappadocians say, we see the things around God, not his essence.

1091
00:59:46,039 --> 00:59:47,639
Speaker 2: What do you think the things around God are. If

1092
00:59:47,679 --> 00:59:50,719
God has passive potency, explain to me how he can

1093
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,440
be immutable, eternal, perfect thirty second bleed.

1094
00:59:53,519 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 3: Right now, divine essence is unchanging, unalterable. But I don't

1095
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,519
reduce the persons and their actions to the essence, and

1096
01:00:00,559 --> 01:00:03,440
so it's not a problem for me. Yes, I answered,

1097
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:04,400
with reciprocity.

1098
01:00:04,599 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 2: You're just saying there is a circular object, this planer

1099
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:12,239
that can be orthogonal. I mean, explain divine revelation then yeah,

1100
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:16,679
So if God can be I never I said that

1101
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,480
he condescends to have their identity with creatures. That doesn't

1102
01:00:20,519 --> 01:00:22,800
make sense. I'm sorry you don't believe that prayer, right,

1103
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:26,639
God answers prayer? No, I believe acted upon which you've

1104
01:00:26,679 --> 01:00:29,079
said several times in your podcast. I never said that

1105
01:00:29,639 --> 01:00:33,199
passive potency. How could he still be immutable? The divine

1106
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:34,320
essence doesn't change.

1107
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 3: God condescends to have reciprole relationships with our prayers.

1108
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,519
Speaker 2: That's what I said. That's time there.

1109
01:00:39,559 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 3: I'm glad you don't think God answers prayers. So again

1110
01:00:41,559 --> 01:00:43,079
you have a pagan metaphysical system.

1111
01:00:43,239 --> 01:00:44,639
Speaker 2: All right, that's the time question.

1112
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 1: Now, what I want to know from you guys in

1113
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,760
the chat right now if you heard the cross examination.

1114
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,159
One's in the chat if you think that Jay is

1115
01:00:51,159 --> 01:00:53,119
cooking and that you think that he's winning right now

1116
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:55,320
in terms of just truth, and I don't want to

1117
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:56,840
hear just the Orthodox pros.

1118
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:58,599
Speaker 2: I know how you guys, are you guys will just

1119
01:00:58,639 --> 01:01:00,480
be like jaywins.

1120
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: So One's in the chat if you think theologically is

1121
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,039
arguments and more sound. Two in the chat if you

1122
01:01:05,079 --> 01:01:08,480
think that Timothy's arguments and cross examination was more sound.

1123
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: That means even if you're Orthodox or you're Catholic, you

1124
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,239
don't have to vote for your home team. One's in

1125
01:01:13,239 --> 01:01:15,159
the chat for j Two's in the chats.

1126
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: Before we do the closing statement, I do want to

1127
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:19,159
just read a couple of super chats here reminding you

1128
01:01:19,199 --> 01:01:22,679
guys that Humphluru one said tim is based, Jay is based.

1129
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,360
We should be Catholic republic and the Authos should build

1130
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,400
the churches. We also had from Daniel Ward seventy nine said,

1131
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,199
thank you Tim Gordon for defending the one true Church

1132
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,440
that Jesus founded on the Prince of the Apostle, Saint Peter.

1133
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,280
May all least an Orthodox become Catholics, so we may

1134
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,840
be in one holy Catholic and Apostolic church. We also

1135
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,440
read the ones here from Maximus Decimus said keep my

1136
01:01:43,519 --> 01:01:45,000
name out of your mouth, little boy, shout out for

1137
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,360
our supreme leader, Jay Dyer, Christ is King. All right,

1138
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:50,840
we're gonna give a one more minute here to read

1139
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,599
a couple super chats before we get to the closing statements.

1140
01:01:53,639 --> 01:01:56,320
Servant Necros is thirty three cent, huge respect for Jay.

1141
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,280
Keep it up my brother now the Aldohyan and also

1142
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,119
said Tim makes you sleep in Elijah is using groc

1143
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,440
This is the most rigorous debate I have ever seen.

1144
01:02:04,639 --> 01:02:05,079
Speaker 2: It's truth.

1145
01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: I don't use I don't use AI, but I had

1146
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:07,760
to use ad a lookup some of the stuff you

1147
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,760
were saying in real time. Also, we have missed a

1148
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,159
fist and said I'm too subtarted to understand any of this.

1149
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,400
But Orthodox have better hats, which settles it. A tree

1150
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:20,079
will be known by its fruit. Come home, Papists. So

1151
01:02:20,079 --> 01:02:21,559
it looks like we got a pretty good split in

1152
01:02:21,559 --> 01:02:24,199
between there. Right, let's move into the closing statement. Just

1153
01:02:24,199 --> 01:02:26,039
so you guys know watching at home, we will be

1154
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:28,679
taking a five minute break between each of our topics.

1155
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:30,679
So you can use the restroom, you can breathe, and

1156
01:02:30,719 --> 01:02:32,960
it might be a couple of minutes, so don't go anywhere.

1157
01:02:33,119 --> 01:02:35,679
We're gonna start with our closing statement. If you guys

1158
01:02:35,679 --> 01:02:37,840
are John, are you prepared and are you prepared to go?

1159
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,880
All right, Jay, you're gonna have ten minutes on the clock.

1160
01:02:41,199 --> 01:02:42,519
You do have an extra minut would you want to

1161
01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:44,400
use it here on a future topic?

1162
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 2: We'll say that. Okay, soat we're doing closing statements for

1163
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:52,000
each topic. Well, that's the forumt that I was handed here,

1164
01:02:52,039 --> 01:02:53,840
unless you like to do a closing statement overall. I

1165
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,039
thought we were doing overall. But what I defer to

1166
01:02:57,079 --> 01:02:59,480
you if you want to do, that's your figure. That's

1167
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:00,159
gonna be really.

1168
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: What about brief? Yeah, why we just want we'll just

1169
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,760
do a three minute wrap up because I think that's

1170
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:09,800
for a lot of us. Just a reminder, because this

1171
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:11,800
is an internet debate. While there are a lot of theologians,

1172
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:13,679
some people may have gotten lost in there. So maybe

1173
01:03:13,719 --> 01:03:16,360
we'll keep to understanding to help us understand what your

1174
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,639
final statement was. You have three minutes on the clock.

1175
01:03:18,679 --> 01:03:20,480
Will make it brief and we'll have a complete one

1176
01:03:20,519 --> 01:03:22,960
at the end. Go ahead, Jay, your time starts now.

1177
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1178
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,639
Speaker 3: I want to remind everybody that again, I think if

1179
01:03:27,679 --> 01:03:32,199
you are familiar with Biblical theology, the Patristic teaching, nobody

1180
01:03:32,239 --> 01:03:35,559
believes that the glory of God is in any sense

1181
01:03:35,599 --> 01:03:39,480
a creature or created. In fact, it is the uncreated

1182
01:03:39,519 --> 01:03:42,119
immortality and light that Paul talks about at the end

1183
01:03:42,119 --> 01:03:45,880
of Timothy, in which God eternally dwells that uncreated light

1184
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,360
in glory was manifested in Matthew seventeen on the mount

1185
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,480
of transfiguration through the human nature of Christ.

1186
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,559
Speaker 2: And so it is precisely this crucial.

1187
01:03:54,239 --> 01:03:59,079
Speaker 3: Mistake that's made amongst the Catholic friends of ours that

1188
01:03:59,239 --> 01:04:02,079
they think that this in some way will violate these

1189
01:04:02,079 --> 01:04:05,280
basic metaphysical principles. But in fact we have a reverse

1190
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,480
system that we derive our theology first, in our metaphysics second.

1191
01:04:09,599 --> 01:04:12,039
Speaker 2: This is what allowed the Church Fathers to be.

1192
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 3: Pretty fluid with the way that they appropriated the philosophy

1193
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:18,079
of their day.

1194
01:04:18,559 --> 01:04:19,639
Speaker 2: As the zach Kuber.

1195
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 3: Book notes, the Church Fathers are able to in some

1196
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,119
places pull from Arisothean logic text, but for the most

1197
01:04:25,119 --> 01:04:28,679
part they utilize a lot of neoplatonic argumentation. At least

1198
01:04:28,719 --> 01:04:31,000
up until John Damascus, who then does use a lot

1199
01:04:31,039 --> 01:04:32,519
more Aristotilian argumentation.

1200
01:04:33,039 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 2: So what that shows is that for us, it's not.

1201
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 3: A question of Aristotle versus Plato, but rather divine revelation,

1202
01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:42,199
as Father Fluorowsky says, which comes first and foremost. And

1203
01:04:42,239 --> 01:04:47,079
that's why, for example, when Aquinas in on a de vertate,

1204
01:04:47,239 --> 01:04:49,920
when he talks about the section on divine simplicity, when

1205
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:54,079
he rejects John Damascus's essence energy argument, which shows by

1206
01:04:54,079 --> 01:04:56,719
the way that John Damascus is actually making the same

1207
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,519
essence energy arguments that I'm making, which is precisely why

1208
01:04:59,519 --> 01:05:01,559
they were present in all the cab Dootionans, why I

1209
01:05:01,679 --> 01:05:05,159
was present in Saint Cyril, and it's even present in St.

1210
01:05:05,199 --> 01:05:06,159
Speaker 2: Anthonasius himself.

1211
01:05:06,159 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 3: If you read Fluorowsky's essay on Creation and Creaturehood about

1212
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,360
the essenceentary distinction in sant Athenasius even you'll notice that

1213
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,119
Aquandas's rejection has nothing to do with what the actual

1214
01:05:17,199 --> 01:05:21,800
Patristic teaching is. In fact, he says in on the contrary. Moreover,

1215
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:27,000
Rabbi my Minides notes that the names of God do

1216
01:05:27,119 --> 01:05:31,039
not signify intentions added to the substance of God, because

1217
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:34,800
every accident signifies an intention added to the substance of

1218
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,639
its subject. Therefore, the foregoing names do not signify an accident.

1219
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:39,119
Speaker 2: In God.

1220
01:05:39,519 --> 01:05:43,159
Speaker 3: We simply don't have the two tiered metaphysical collapse structure

1221
01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:46,679
that He has, which nobody in the first seven hundred

1222
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,559
years of the Patristic teaching has either.

1223
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,719
Speaker 2: So the attempt to categorize.

1224
01:05:51,039 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 3: The energies as accidental or in some way hearts or

1225
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,639
something like that was never an argument that I made,

1226
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:58,760
nor did any of the Eastern trust Fathers make it.

1227
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:02,119
And in fact, if you the dissutation with Piis which

1228
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:04,960
is the theology of Saint Maximus that goes into the

1229
01:06:05,039 --> 01:06:07,519
Confession of Saint Sophronius, which is accepted at the six

1230
01:06:07,559 --> 01:06:11,920
Ecumenical Council, that whole treatise, it's about one hundred pages,

1231
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,679
is a treatise utilizing all the same essence energy arguments

1232
01:06:16,719 --> 01:06:21,280
that I make against the monothelite monophysite position that is

1233
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,280
accepted in the Confession of Saint Sophronius at the sixth

1234
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:28,199
Econminical Council, and even Pope Agatho in his letter admits

1235
01:06:28,519 --> 01:06:31,480
two wills and two energies in Christ and so when

1236
01:06:31,719 --> 01:06:35,800
when Tim said that inner gaia means something very different

1237
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,679
in the Bible, it's not metaphysical. He then goes on

1238
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:44,880
to give this elaborate ussiological story about what it's all

1239
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:48,239
really meaning, doing the very opposite of what I'm doing,

1240
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:50,639
which is looking at the text when it says that

1241
01:06:50,679 --> 01:06:54,320
Moses walked up on the mountain and God's glory was

1242
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:57,360
shown to him, his goodnesses, and by the way, it's

1243
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:01,159
plural there the goodnesses of God are shown. And yet

1244
01:07:01,239 --> 01:07:03,679
Jesus says in John five, no one saw the Father

1245
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,360
at any time. Well, it's not the energies that are

1246
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,239
manifesting in time and space. It is the person of

1247
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,880
the Son, who is the face of the Father in

1248
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:13,199
time and space, and.

1249
01:07:13,119 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 2: It is his energies that are manifest sacing.

1250
01:07:15,519 --> 01:07:19,039
Speaker 3: So he misunderstood, especially when he was talking about the

1251
01:07:19,079 --> 01:07:21,400
Angel of the Lord, who is obviously the person of

1252
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:23,960
Christ in time and space in the Theophany. So I

1253
01:07:24,039 --> 01:07:26,440
think that that Theophanees really clenches the whole argument.

1254
01:07:26,679 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 2: All right, it was forty seconds over, but we'll give

1255
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:30,360
you the minute bleed. Go ahead.

1256
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,199
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put the same amount of time then that

1257
01:07:32,239 --> 01:07:34,679
he had let me reset the clock. You'll have four

1258
01:07:34,719 --> 01:07:37,559
minutes since he had four. Go ahead, Timothy, give us

1259
01:07:37,559 --> 01:07:39,239
your closing statement on the topic.

1260
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:43,519
Speaker 2: Here on the simplicity, you see the devastation to the

1261
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:48,360
EO position when you look at scripture on the beatific vision.

1262
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,719
In First John, it says we shall see Him as

1263
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,440
he is. That would mean the divine essence at the

1264
01:07:55,519 --> 01:07:59,119
end of time. Blessed are the pure in heart. Or

1265
01:07:59,159 --> 01:08:02,360
they shall see God. This is Matthew chapter five, verse eight.

1266
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,199
They shall see God, not the works of God or

1267
01:08:05,239 --> 01:08:09,159
the energeias of God. They will not see his energies.

1268
01:08:09,159 --> 01:08:11,679
They will see God himself. This is the problem. This

1269
01:08:11,719 --> 01:08:14,760
is the teleology of the good life. This is what

1270
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,640
we're promised. And they say otherwise, they say we will

1271
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:20,439
never see God in his essence. All we can ever

1272
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,840
see are the energaias of God's same as what we

1273
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:28,600
see on earth. It's absurd. If we never see God's essence,

1274
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,279
we never reach full union with him. Also, so this

1275
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:35,800
is really really important to draw. It's it's absolutely theologically

1276
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:43,079
and teleologically devastating, and it's a fatalistic worldview. Very very important. Now, Glory.

1277
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,680
When Jay was asking me about glory, and he's spit

1278
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:50,680
firing questions at me. Glory is a created reality. The

1279
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:52,960
way we experience it, the way we're talking about it,

1280
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:57,079
the way it's predicated. Analogically, it's glory in our soul,

1281
01:08:57,159 --> 01:09:03,279
in our intellects, and our participation in it is created

1282
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:08,520
and therefore the way we interact with God's glory. Again,

1283
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:12,239
this is a virtual distinction because it involves the way

1284
01:09:12,279 --> 01:09:16,159
that we receive it in interact with it in the

1285
01:09:16,159 --> 01:09:20,479
mode of the receiver us creatures. It's of course has

1286
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,479
to be created. A created glory has to interact with

1287
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:27,119
creatures as it exists in God, it is uncreated. But

1288
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,560
we don't know glory from the side of God because

1289
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:34,960
glory from the side of God remains uncreated until the

1290
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,800
be a typic vision. The most important thing he was

1291
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:42,359
asking about the Theophanes and Jay's claim. He'll say, the

1292
01:09:42,359 --> 01:09:47,199
Theophanes are this easy, easy proof that passive potency can

1293
01:09:47,239 --> 01:09:49,880
exist in God, which is a non sequitur. It's absurd,

1294
01:09:50,119 --> 01:09:53,439
says there's a distinction between the inner, unrevealed aspect of God,

1295
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,439
his essence, and what he reveals and manifests us his

1296
01:09:56,520 --> 01:10:01,640
divine personal energies. A Theophany. Like I said before, it's

1297
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:06,920
a it's a created sign or instrument of uncreated presence.

1298
01:10:08,039 --> 01:10:12,359
The change is in the medium, not in God himself.

1299
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,560
So this does not even begin to prove that God

1300
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:19,720
is not pure actor, that God can change. Particularly, I

1301
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:22,800
thought Jay was going to come on this first segment

1302
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,319
and distinguish, well, God can change because he has active power,

1303
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,439
active potensia. Well that's true, but he's the unmoved mover.

1304
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:31,800
He can he can act on things without them being

1305
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:34,920
acted on him. But he he came on and defended

1306
01:10:36,399 --> 01:10:40,119
God as passive potency. And this just doesn't begin to

1307
01:10:40,159 --> 01:10:47,319
be shown by the fact that the Theophanes have taken

1308
01:10:47,359 --> 01:10:54,319
place as signs and instruments that are created. Worship is

1309
01:10:54,359 --> 01:11:00,079
something funny. Worship belongs to the divine nature alone. This

1310
01:11:00,119 --> 01:11:04,479
is from Second Constantinople. But not if we take Jay

1311
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,840
at his word, worship Second Constantinople belongs to the divine

1312
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:15,159
nature alone. So that that's really important, I mean the most.

1313
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:18,840
The heart of this issue is whether or not passive

1314
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:23,199
potencies can be allowed within God. And this would simply

1315
01:11:23,319 --> 01:11:28,039
destroy all of classical theism. God would change, He wouldn't

1316
01:11:28,039 --> 01:11:31,279
be immutable. He wouldn't be eternal. This is anathematized it,

1317
01:11:31,319 --> 01:11:33,199
and I see it. If God had passive potency, he

1318
01:11:33,199 --> 01:11:36,960
wouldn't be simply wouldn't be perfect. I mean, I'm restating

1319
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,760
what I said in opening because it's so very basic

1320
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,680
and it's so devastating to what we believe about God.

1321
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,640
If we believe that God, if we were to allow

1322
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,960
ourselves to believe that God had passive post I still

1323
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:47,479
have a minute.

1324
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:49,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want to want to have the minute

1325
01:11:49,159 --> 01:11:51,079
on the clock right now, all right, give me one moment.

1326
01:11:51,159 --> 01:11:53,199
Speaker 2: Let me reset the clock. Give you a minute and

1327
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:54,159
go ahead and take that.

1328
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just want to address in this minute the

1329
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,199
fact that I mean, he doesn't seem to be aware

1330
01:11:59,239 --> 01:12:04,960
that the Theophanes are called God, they're given the name Yahweh,

1331
01:12:05,199 --> 01:12:09,560
they're worshiped, and they're pre signifiers of the incarnation. So

1332
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:14,159
he's literally saying that these signs and symbols can be worshiped.

1333
01:12:14,199 --> 01:12:16,319
So he believes that you can worship creatures. Then he

1334
01:12:16,359 --> 01:12:18,640
turns around and contradicts himself because he says that only

1335
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:20,039
divine nature can be worshiped.

1336
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:22,600
Speaker 2: The triad is worshiped.

1337
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,359
Speaker 3: And it doesn't say only the divine nature is worshiped,

1338
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,399
but we worship God in Triad. That's the actual definition

1339
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:31,119
of the council doesn't say only divine nature. So I

1340
01:12:31,119 --> 01:12:34,159
think it's just kind of insane to me that that,

1341
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:39,880
like how far removed from divine revelation that position actually is.

1342
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:41,159
Speaker 2: And again, as I said in.

1343
01:12:41,079 --> 01:12:44,560
Speaker 3: Philippians too, if God is a being that is reducible

1344
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:48,359
to pure act, then it's not possible for the self

1345
01:12:48,399 --> 01:12:53,640
emptying or the limiting to occur in the incarnation when

1346
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,119
the Sun, according to Filippians to in the Canosis passage

1347
01:12:56,399 --> 01:12:59,800
willfully limits himself. A being that is pure act according

1348
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:04,960
to definition reducibly would undergo change via Philippians too, And

1349
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:05,840
we don't believe.

1350
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:08,399
Speaker 2: That can have a minitary respondent. No where you're you're

1351
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:09,159
over on that one.

1352
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: You can't actually still in the other topics if you'd

1353
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:13,600
like to, you can always address technically if you like

1354
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:15,439
to take a little bit of time to bring back

1355
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:16,960
some points, I do want to mind you, guys, we're

1356
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:18,680
gonna take a break here in a second, so that

1357
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:21,439
if you're dis joining right now in the live stream,

1358
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:23,359
we are in the middle of debating some of the

1359
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:27,159
core dogmas theological concepts, depending on where you come from

1360
01:13:27,159 --> 01:13:29,760
and what wording you like to use. Of Orthodoxy and

1361
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:32,720
Catholicism in terms of the Church itself, not the Orthodoxy

1362
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:35,479
of religion, Orthodoxy of faith, or the Gospel, but of

1363
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,359
the approach and of the Church. That being said, if

1364
01:13:38,359 --> 01:13:40,840
you guys are sending super chats, I just want to

1365
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:42,000
remind you guys a couple of things. We have a

1366
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:45,239
few more people in here. Mista also said that it's

1367
01:13:45,239 --> 01:13:47,000
a little bit too much beyond him. We also have

1368
01:13:47,039 --> 01:13:51,239
some win Titus, win Hadrian. We also have a l

1369
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:54,439
chemist said, depending on Gordon's performance, tonight might be Jay's

1370
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:59,039
third conversion to Catholicism and second denunciation of the Orthodox Church.

1371
01:13:59,319 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 2: Curious to know which way the wind swayed him tonight.

1372
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:08,119
Speaker 1: Uh, Sigilists said Orthodox equals divine person, Catholic equals divine robot.

1373
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:11,680
We also have a servant, said Hard passed on trusting

1374
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:15,520
a church founded on forgeries. I'm not sure that's in Australia,

1375
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:18,039
and shout out to my Aussies. I just got banned

1376
01:14:18,079 --> 01:14:21,159
from Australia. Unfortunately, I don't even know what the currency

1377
01:14:21,199 --> 01:14:24,880
AARs is, but uh, buddy, Pep nine seven three said

1378
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,000
tim has been forsake and everyone got to donate to

1379
01:14:27,039 --> 01:14:29,920
the stream where y'all are Yukubians.

1380
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:32,600
Speaker 2: Really, we're all did you cube made us?

1381
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:35,079
Speaker 1: I remember you said that, right, Yeah, you're all creating

1382
01:14:35,079 --> 01:14:35,920
the image of a cube.

1383
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 2: You're learning the right religion now, yeah, finally yeah, And.

1384
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 1: And a grand canon is a portal, that's what they say. Uh,

1385
01:14:43,279 --> 01:14:46,680
Techno Ox said, let's go, not one step back.

1386
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:48,159
Speaker 2: There you go.

1387
01:14:48,279 --> 01:14:50,239
Speaker 1: We also have a few more that we'll read in

1388
01:14:50,279 --> 01:14:52,720
a moment, but let's join and let's jump into a

1389
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:54,760
quick break. We're taking a couple of minute break here,

1390
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:57,760
just a reset. They're gonna reset their books, their notes,

1391
01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,279
and we're gonna come back just to make sure I

1392
01:14:59,319 --> 01:15:00,680
have it correct by the from you so that we

1393
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:02,159
don't make them no mistake.

1394
01:15:02,239 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 2: Again.

1395
01:15:03,319 --> 01:15:06,520
Speaker 1: For the next topic that you wanted to cover, we

1396
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:10,720
are able to get into the Christ did not establish

1397
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:11,960
the papacy? Or did you want to go to the

1398
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,960
Holy Spirit? Does not have a do you want to

1399
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:15,600
go to the Holy Spirit?

1400
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:19,039
Speaker 2: Question? Was it Philly? What do you want? He went first?

1401
01:15:19,039 --> 01:15:21,600
You can pick the next topic. We'll be going first.

1402
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:23,960
I'm fine with either, but but Philly oquay would be

1403
01:15:24,119 --> 01:15:25,119
would have more of them.

1404
01:15:25,199 --> 01:15:27,199
Speaker 1: All right, let's go there, all right, So we'll be

1405
01:15:27,239 --> 01:15:29,560
back talking about that just a moment, and we'll be

1406
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:33,600
starting opening statements with Timothy Gordon representing Catholicism. We'll see

1407
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:34,800
just a few moments, take a break, and we'll be

1408
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,359
right back in the Rumble section. That justays imagine Allied

1409
01:15:37,399 --> 01:15:39,159
to trying to process all this when he couldn't even

1410
01:15:39,159 --> 01:15:42,680
get the sound started to start his live stream.

1411
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:43,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely fantastic.

1412
01:15:44,039 --> 01:15:47,159
Speaker 1: We got a great debate going on today directly between

1413
01:15:47,319 --> 01:15:49,880
Jay Dyer and Timothy Gordon. If you're just joining Live today,

1414
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:54,439
we are live on rumble x, Facebook and on YouTube.

1415
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:57,000
We can also find us on Instagram and Elijah Schaeffer

1416
01:15:57,359 --> 01:16:00,680
dot locals dot com makes it if you want to

1417
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:01,279
know where we've been.

1418
01:16:01,359 --> 01:16:02,199
Speaker 2: I've been very sick.

1419
01:16:02,239 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 1: I was in El Salvador shooting content and then I

1420
01:16:05,039 --> 01:16:07,479
end up picking up a stomach bug from a taco stand.

1421
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:10,960
I love the country, but don't eat pork from strangers

1422
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:12,079
in developing countries.

1423
01:16:12,119 --> 01:16:14,399
Speaker 2: That's just a little a little tip for tat there.

1424
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,119
Speaker 1: We're gonna be jumping into our next topic today on

1425
01:16:17,199 --> 01:16:22,479
the overarching discussion of orthodox is in the Church itself

1426
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:26,000
and Catholicism as in the church and the dogma. If

1427
01:16:26,039 --> 01:16:27,800
you're joining me today on YouTube, make sure that you

1428
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,359
like the video right now and subscribe to We are

1429
01:16:30,359 --> 01:16:32,960
a brand news show, still working out the kinks, just

1430
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,920
a couple months old, and absolutely fantastic and excited because

1431
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:41,079
we are a network riftv dot com not influenced by

1432
01:16:41,359 --> 01:16:45,039
outside countries like Israel, and that's our claim to fame

1433
01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:46,439
here and so we really appreciate that.

1434
01:16:47,079 --> 01:16:52,319
Speaker 2: All right, We're gonna jump into the topic here, specifically

1435
01:16:52,359 --> 01:16:57,079
about the Holy Spirit, and you know, we are asking ourselves,

1436
01:16:57,079 --> 01:16:59,640
does it or does it not hyposthetically proceed from the sun.

1437
01:17:00,039 --> 01:17:02,399
So this is a very complex topic.

1438
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 1: It's going to get intricate, it is going to get

1439
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:09,680
absolutely incredibly in many ways incredibly technical, and so again

1440
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:13,760
I encourage you guys to please have your your notes

1441
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:16,680
out and be ready to discuss. Our guests are of

1442
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,560
agreed to doing ten minute opening statements and they will

1443
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:24,199
have a minute bleed if they so choose. We're going

1444
01:17:24,199 --> 01:17:27,640
to start with Timothy Gordon. The time is on the clock.

1445
01:17:28,079 --> 01:17:31,079
You have ten minutes. You can start now.

1446
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 2: So the second question tonight is nothing less than the

1447
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:41,800
unity of the Trinity. Does the Holy Spirit proceed from

1448
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:43,880
the Father alone or from both the Father and the

1449
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:48,079
Son together is one eternal source. This is called the philioquay.

1450
01:17:48,199 --> 01:17:52,119
It means and the Son. The Catholic position is that

1451
01:17:52,199 --> 01:17:55,079
the Holy Spirit proceeds from the person of the Father

1452
01:17:55,359 --> 01:18:02,000
through the person of the Son. Brief historical note, there's

1453
01:18:02,039 --> 01:18:08,680
a semantic dodge that happens with Orthodox The narrative proves

1454
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:13,680
how absurdly reactive the Orthodox position is against the Catholic position.

1455
01:18:14,039 --> 01:18:17,640
Or early on, there are a couple of thinkers. One

1456
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:21,439
is named Photius. The other is Michael Ceriularius, who was

1457
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:26,880
the patriarch during the Schism, who mistakenly thought that the

1458
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:32,079
Catholic philioque meant a polyarchic generation of the divine essence,

1459
01:18:32,119 --> 01:18:35,159
meaning that both the Father and the Son like generate

1460
01:18:35,239 --> 01:18:39,000
the essence as it comes to the Spirit, which has

1461
01:18:39,039 --> 01:18:41,880
never been the Catholic position. It's the Catholic position has

1462
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:48,840
always been monarchic. The Father alone generates it through the

1463
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:53,399
Son it comes to the Holy Spirit. So so together

1464
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:56,079
these thinkers, who are separated by about two hundred and

1465
01:18:56,079 --> 01:19:01,119
fifty years, Photius and Cerularius together reduced the Orthodox position

1466
01:19:01,199 --> 01:19:03,520
to the view for for a time that the Spirit

1467
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:10,439
proceeded from the Sun only economically or temporarily. By the

1468
01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:14,039
time they realized their error in interpretation in the late

1469
01:19:14,119 --> 01:19:18,960
thirteenth century, the Eastern Orthodox, they're already committed to schism,

1470
01:19:19,359 --> 01:19:21,520
and so even though they became willing to admit that

1471
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:25,399
the Spirit proceeded from the Sun eternally and this is

1472
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:30,359
an eternal relationship, they maintained some linguistic distance from the

1473
01:19:30,399 --> 01:19:34,079
Catholic position, which is called hypostatic procession. It means a

1474
01:19:34,119 --> 01:19:39,399
procession from the person by use of nonsensical language like

1475
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:43,720
eternal manifestation, which is either a distinction without a difference

1476
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:47,760
from the Roman Catholic view and we're the same all along,

1477
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:52,159
or else it's nonsensical here. I'm on this one topic

1478
01:19:52,199 --> 01:19:54,960
of three. I'm very willing to be persuaded, but it

1479
01:19:55,359 --> 01:19:58,159
seems just like a semantic dodge. They don't want to

1480
01:19:58,199 --> 01:20:01,359
have the Catholic view. By the time the Eastern Orthodox

1481
01:20:01,399 --> 01:20:05,079
realized that, Photius in around eight hundred and Ceriularius around

1482
01:20:05,119 --> 01:20:08,239
two hundred and fifty years later, badly misunderstood the philioque

1483
01:20:08,279 --> 01:20:12,239
and created this whole stink they decide. It seems they

1484
01:20:12,279 --> 01:20:15,239
decided to employ the semantic dodge rather than admit the

1485
01:20:15,239 --> 01:20:20,199
air of these two thinkers. So it depends what's being said.

1486
01:20:20,319 --> 01:20:26,119
If the Father alone truly spirates, truly spirates the Spirit,

1487
01:20:26,239 --> 01:20:31,279
then it becomes nonsensical. It would deny that all the

1488
01:20:31,319 --> 01:20:35,119
Father has belongs to the Son, which is a quote

1489
01:20:35,199 --> 01:20:39,279
directly from scripture. From John's Gospel, it severs the eternal

1490
01:20:39,319 --> 01:20:45,079
relation of the Spirit to the Son, which again Jesus says,

1491
01:20:45,119 --> 01:20:49,199
all that the Father has I have. In this sense,

1492
01:20:49,319 --> 01:20:54,800
Scripture strongly supports philioka, which is, the Father gives the

1493
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:59,119
divine essence to the Holy Spirit through the Son. The

1494
01:20:59,159 --> 01:21:01,840
spirit is called the spirit of the Son in Galatians

1495
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:05,920
chapter four, verse six. In Romans chapter eight, verse nine,

1496
01:21:06,039 --> 01:21:09,439
Christ breathes the spirit. In John chapter twenty, verse twenty two,

1497
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:13,960
this is an image of external procession. I think they'll

1498
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,359
say it's strictly economic. But he's breathing the spirit, and

1499
01:21:17,399 --> 01:21:22,239
it's an eternal relation. When Jesus says all that the

1500
01:21:22,279 --> 01:21:27,039
Father has is mine. John chapter sixteen, verse fifteen, nothing

1501
01:21:27,119 --> 01:21:31,520
is excluded from the sun the river of life. In

1502
01:21:32,159 --> 01:21:37,079
the final Book of the Bible Revelation twenty two, verse one,

1503
01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:39,720
the river of life flows from the throne of the

1504
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:44,399
Father and the Lamb. This has only one possible meaning

1505
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:49,560
that I can construe most condemningly, and there is a

1506
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:52,359
lot of equivocal language here. And again I think there's

1507
01:21:52,399 --> 01:21:56,520
the least difference between our two positions of all these

1508
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,880
three topics by far. I would say that the Eastern

1509
01:22:00,159 --> 01:22:04,680
Orthodox thinkers, or Eastern thinkers of the first millennium, many

1510
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,600
of them largely support it. Cyril of Alexandria says spirit

1511
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:11,439
is from God in the Sun and through the Son.

1512
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:16,439
That's an Eastern thinker. Saint Maximus the Confessor says, outright,

1513
01:22:17,039 --> 01:22:20,520
the Latins are correct. They mean from the Father through

1514
01:22:20,520 --> 01:22:25,520
the Son. Saint Basil and Gregory of Nissa both say

1515
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:29,039
almost identically, all God's works are from the Father through

1516
01:22:29,039 --> 01:22:33,880
the Son in the spirit. Saint John Damascene gives an

1517
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:36,239
amazing image for all of it, for anybody out there

1518
01:22:36,239 --> 01:22:38,600
that's trying to think about it. This is an amazing

1519
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:43,239
image and it captures both the medium and the substance

1520
01:22:43,319 --> 01:22:45,800
of the way that I believe the philioque works. He says,

1521
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,079
the Father is the source the Sun is a river,

1522
01:22:48,359 --> 01:22:52,000
the Holy Spirit is a lake. The spirit quote proceeds

1523
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:56,520
from the Father and rests in the Sun. Saint Gregory

1524
01:22:56,560 --> 01:23:00,760
of Nissa writes, every operation which extend from God to

1525
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:04,119
creation has its origin from the Father, proceeds through the Son,

1526
01:23:04,199 --> 01:23:07,880
and is perfected in the Holy Spirit. This is very

1527
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,239
very close, very close to our view. None of these views,

1528
01:23:11,279 --> 01:23:14,239
because of the abstrusity of the topic, are going to

1529
01:23:14,239 --> 01:23:17,119
be identical, particularly in the Early Church, but it's very

1530
01:23:17,119 --> 01:23:21,560
close to what we're saying. A hypostatic procession, a procession

1531
01:23:22,319 --> 01:23:25,479
of the Father through the person of the Son to

1532
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:28,039
the Spirit. But still only the Spirit only gets the

1533
01:23:28,039 --> 01:23:31,960
divine essence from one source. That source is the Father

1534
01:23:32,239 --> 01:23:36,479
alone through through Jesus. As a reminder, Avenatia says, the

1535
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:39,079
Holy Spirit has to the Son the same proper relation

1536
01:23:39,319 --> 01:23:42,039
as we have known the Son to have to the Father.

1537
01:23:42,159 --> 01:23:46,960
So a nice relation of proportion. The Holy Spirit is

1538
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:48,399
to the Son as the Son is to the Father.

1539
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:51,359
Gregory and Azienzas said, if there ever was a time

1540
01:23:51,399 --> 01:23:53,600
that the Father was not the Son was not. If

1541
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:55,279
ever there was a time when the Sun was not,

1542
01:23:55,439 --> 01:24:00,880
then the Holy Spirit was not showing eternality through temporality,

1543
01:24:01,239 --> 01:24:05,720
and Saint Epiphanius of Salamus says, the Spirit is from

1544
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:08,159
the Father indeed, but he is not without the Son.

1545
01:24:08,319 --> 01:24:10,000
For if the spirit is of the Father, he is

1546
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:12,520
also of the Son. For the Son says he will

1547
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:19,920
receive from me. Ecumenical councils support this. It was not

1548
01:24:20,079 --> 01:24:23,039
crystal clear until the fourth latter in council. The Spirit

1549
01:24:23,079 --> 01:24:27,960
receives equally from both leons two, which takes place supposed

1550
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:30,239
to be the Reunion Council, the first Reunion Council in

1551
01:24:30,239 --> 01:24:32,880
twelve seventy four, from the Father and the Son, as

1552
01:24:33,239 --> 01:24:37,640
from one principle one spiration. There's equivocation on whether or

1553
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:43,239
not there's one principle at times there's just one principle,

1554
01:24:43,319 --> 01:24:47,880
one spiration through the Son. Florence in fourteen thirty nine,

1555
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:51,640
which actually was the Reunion Council. The Catholic Church and

1556
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:57,600
the Orthodox Church did unify at the Florence Council, where

1557
01:24:58,159 --> 01:25:01,399
the Orthodox position thirty one the thirty three delegates said,

1558
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:06,960
you are right on phillyoquay and on the papacy says

1559
01:25:07,039 --> 01:25:13,039
spirit eternally from both one principal one spiration. Now scripturally,

1560
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:16,159
the spirit is sent by both the Father and the

1561
01:25:16,199 --> 01:25:20,800
Son in John chapter fourteen, verse twenty six and in

1562
01:25:21,279 --> 01:25:27,520
John chapter sixteen, verse seven. Logically speaking, this holds if

1563
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:31,199
the son cannot spirate, he is less than the Father,

1564
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:38,199
which is a semi arianist error. Unity requires it as well.

1565
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:42,840
Phillioquay preserves the Trinity's unity, denying it divides the Father

1566
01:25:43,119 --> 01:25:47,840
and the Son. So I'd say this that you have

1567
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:50,479
to take this historical look at the Phillyoquay one because

1568
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:54,840
it's so dense, but also because the historical account is

1569
01:25:55,239 --> 01:25:59,119
really really important. It seems that by the time the

1570
01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:03,479
Orthodox real we weren't we Catholics did not the Latins

1571
01:26:03,479 --> 01:26:06,159
didn't have the position on the filioqua that they were

1572
01:26:06,159 --> 01:26:10,199
attributing to us. They did not want to admit that

1573
01:26:12,039 --> 01:26:14,960
the position had being correct all along. So until this

1574
01:26:15,039 --> 01:26:19,920
misunderstanding about what Western fathers meant began, the Eastern fathers

1575
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:23,520
were comfortable with eternal relations between the Spirit and the Sun.

1576
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:28,880
It's called the Athenation model, after all, and Athenacious is

1577
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:32,640
an Eastern father. This is the Eastern formulation of the

1578
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:36,960
hypostatic procession, though they don't use the term hypostatic. In

1579
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:40,720
the sixth century, the formulation begins getting put into the Western,

1580
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:45,319
non Roman creeds, which makes the I guess East feel threatened.

1581
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:48,199
There's a lot of natural tension at the time. In

1582
01:26:48,319 --> 01:26:52,199
eight oh three, Charlemagne enthusiastically adds it to the creed.

1583
01:26:53,199 --> 01:26:56,560
Frankish priests at the time say the creed this way

1584
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:59,800
in the Holy Land. And then in eight sixty nine,

1585
01:27:00,039 --> 01:27:04,560
this important date, Photius of Constantinople says the creed is heretical.

1586
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:07,239
He thinks that it means the Holy Spirit's essence in

1587
01:27:07,279 --> 01:27:09,920
the Creed comes from two sources. This is just wrong.

1588
01:27:10,039 --> 01:27:14,079
It's an embarrassment. He thought that the Catholic position was

1589
01:27:14,119 --> 01:27:19,600
one of Polyarchia. And it's probably why we're disagreeing about

1590
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:25,359
this today is because there's an error mate and a

1591
01:27:25,399 --> 01:27:31,600
misinterpretation of the Catholic position that's factual, with no account

1592
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:35,279
ever given for it by Photius or his people. He

1593
01:27:35,319 --> 01:27:37,560
thinks it means the Holy Spirit's essence in the creed

1594
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:40,479
comes from two sources. To repeat for people out there,

1595
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:43,479
for those whom this is new, Photius says, the spirit

1596
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,600
has no eternal relation with the Son, which is not

1597
01:27:47,039 --> 01:27:51,000
I believe the Orthodox position today even only a historical

1598
01:27:51,479 --> 01:27:54,680
temporal economic relation is what Photius was willing to say

1599
01:27:54,720 --> 01:28:00,640
because he knew he didn't want that Catholic view. Fifty four,

1600
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:06,119
Michael Cerularius revitalizes Photius is overreacting misunderstanding of the Philly. Okay,

1601
01:28:06,159 --> 01:28:08,199
are we at time? You know we're at time? Okay,

1602
01:28:08,279 --> 01:28:11,640
And I would say that this is a history of

1603
01:28:12,039 --> 01:28:15,399
a misunderstanding without account ever taken.

1604
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:19,279
Speaker 1: All right, going over in the chat you know, remember

1605
01:28:19,319 --> 01:28:22,279
you guys, at any point if you think someone's cooking,

1606
01:28:22,319 --> 01:28:24,119
it's always one in the chat for ja two in

1607
01:28:24,159 --> 01:28:26,079
the chat for ten. We're gonna go over to Jay

1608
01:28:26,119 --> 01:28:29,479
Dier at the Orthodox position on the Philly. Okay, if

1609
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:31,600
I'm even pronouncing that right, iings to pronounce that differently,

1610
01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:33,079
So sorry for that.

1611
01:28:33,159 --> 01:28:37,600
Speaker 2: But go ahead and give us your opening statement. Yeah,

1612
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:46,600
thank you. Give you a second to set up your

1613
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:48,399
notes here, and do you wanna do you want to

1614
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:50,560
a couple of seconds here? Uh? No, I got it.

1615
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:53,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll start your timer whenever you're ready. Let me

1616
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:55,479
know when you're ready to begin or so.

1617
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:59,399
Speaker 3: The Orthodox doctrine is again going to flow out of

1618
01:28:59,399 --> 01:29:02,640
the teaching of the Cappadocians, and particularly Constantinople one, which

1619
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,680
is the second Ecumenical Council. Keep that in mind, because

1620
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:12,079
second Ecamenical Council was called closed and confirmed outside.

1621
01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:12,680
Speaker 2: Of communion with Rome.

1622
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,760
Speaker 3: At the time Saint Melidias of Antioch was the presiding bishop.

1623
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:18,439
He died outside of commune with Rome, and a few

1624
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:22,279
years later Rome eventually accepts that council as the dogmatic

1625
01:29:22,319 --> 01:29:26,279
definition of the Church, supposedly. I want to before we

1626
01:29:26,319 --> 01:29:28,600
get into this, well, I'll just start here. In the

1627
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:31,960
Orthodox view, following the Cappadocians, there's a famous dictim of

1628
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:32,960
Gregor Nazianzus.

1629
01:29:33,039 --> 01:29:34,119
Speaker 2: Everything that the Father.

1630
01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:38,199
Speaker 3: Has, the son has likewise accept the causality. You'll notice

1631
01:29:38,199 --> 01:29:41,159
that nowhere in that discussion did you hear a clear discussion,

1632
01:29:41,399 --> 01:29:44,479
a clear explanation of what the Father is as the

1633
01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:48,560
sole archade. The Father is the principal fount, the source,

1634
01:29:49,119 --> 01:29:55,439
and the unorigin at beginning point of the triad. Thus,

1635
01:29:55,560 --> 01:29:59,600
his hyposthetic property in Orthodox theology is is precisely to

1636
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:03,119
be picked out as cause. That's why, if you heard

1637
01:30:03,159 --> 01:30:05,279
in the first part he made the huge mistake of

1638
01:30:05,319 --> 01:30:09,680
calling the Divine Essence a say or autotheos or of

1639
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,079
himself or of itself. It is the Father alone, according

1640
01:30:13,119 --> 01:30:18,079
to the Capitoian and constantin one teaching, that is God

1641
01:30:18,119 --> 01:30:18,840
of himself.

1642
01:30:19,279 --> 01:30:21,319
Speaker 2: Why because the Son and the Spirit have.

1643
01:30:21,399 --> 01:30:25,039
Speaker 3: Their origin in the Father, in particularly the Father's essence.

1644
01:30:25,279 --> 01:30:27,479
The Son and the Spirit thus do not possess and

1645
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:31,880
cannot possess, the Father's hypostatic property. And so Tim doesn't

1646
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:33,960
seem to be aware of what the Creed teaches. When

1647
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:37,880
the Creed says, I believe in one God, the Divine Essence,

1648
01:30:38,079 --> 01:30:41,439
Oh no, it's actually one God, the Father. Tim appealed

1649
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:44,239
to monotheism, apparently not being aware of the fact that

1650
01:30:44,279 --> 01:30:48,319
the word monotheism is a sixteen hundreds term. Maybe he's

1651
01:30:48,359 --> 01:30:50,880
not aware of the term that was used explicitly in

1652
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:52,920
the Creed and amongst all the Church fathers east and

1653
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:56,000
West for many years, and that is the monarchea in

1654
01:30:56,079 --> 01:30:59,159
the Greek. The monarchia of the Father is the beginning

1655
01:30:59,159 --> 01:31:03,399
point of Orthodox Trinitarian theology, particularly Exodus three fourteen, when

1656
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:06,399
God says, I am from fourteen fifteen, I am that

1657
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:10,560
I am as Saint Maximus, Saint Grey Palamas says he

1658
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:12,079
did not say I am essence.

1659
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:15,119
Speaker 2: He said I am as an I am he.

1660
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 3: Thus, the Father is the beginning point of all Trinitarian theology,

1661
01:31:19,079 --> 01:31:23,279
and contrary to Latin metaphysical essentialism, we don't begin our

1662
01:31:23,279 --> 01:31:27,439
Trinitarian theology with the divine essence the Father's hypostatic property,

1663
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:29,800
since it's what picks him out as the one God,

1664
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:32,399
as the cause of the source the RK.

1665
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:35,399
Speaker 2: This is the cappadoc in one on one teaching.

1666
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:39,359
Speaker 3: Cannot be shared as the cappuditions noted, whatever is a

1667
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:43,880
hypostatic property is unique to and individuates that person. Whatever

1668
01:31:44,079 --> 01:31:48,920
is not is common to all three. Otherwise there would

1669
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:52,600
be some form of subordinationism in the triad if there

1670
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:55,880
were to be a power and attribute a property that

1671
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:59,439
two persons have that one lacks. You'll notice when Tim

1672
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:03,359
gave his explanations, he explicitly affirmed the very thing that

1673
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:07,159
Photius pointed out. He says, he's a red Photius. It

1674
01:32:07,399 --> 01:32:09,199
doesn't sound like he's actually read it.

1675
01:32:09,239 --> 01:32:09,479
Speaker 2: To me.

1676
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:12,359
Speaker 3: I think he's read some Roman Catholic websites that cite it.

1677
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:14,600
I've read it actually multiple times through us, so I

1678
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:17,439
know the Mystagaji very well. He actually talks about the

1679
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:20,439
manifestation of the spirit in the Mystagaji, which Tim says

1680
01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:22,640
they don't talk about They missed this and had to

1681
01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:25,119
make it up later. But wait a minute, Tim said,

1682
01:32:25,279 --> 01:32:29,960
if one cannot spiate or if the he said that,

1683
01:32:30,199 --> 01:32:32,840
if one of them does not spiate, they're less. Thus

1684
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:35,159
the son has to be able to spirate. Tim, maybe

1685
01:32:35,159 --> 01:32:37,439
you didn't realize that in the In the Mysticgogy, that's

1686
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:40,880
actually an argument that Photius makes that the spirit doesn't

1687
01:32:40,920 --> 01:32:42,199
aspirate or generate.

1688
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:46,279
Speaker 2: So, by your own argumentation, if the son is not

1689
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:50,560
equal to the Father because he doesn't spirrate, then the

1690
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:52,239
spirit has to also spirrate.

1691
01:32:52,359 --> 01:32:55,079
Speaker 3: But nobody teaches this. The spirit spir rates or generates

1692
01:32:55,079 --> 01:32:58,720
a person. So by your own argument, you subordinated the spirit,

1693
01:32:58,920 --> 01:33:01,039
which is the very argument this made in the Mystic God,

1694
01:33:01,199 --> 01:33:03,520
which tells me that you didn't actually read the Mystagogy.

1695
01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:05,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote you again. If one does not

1696
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:08,680
inspire it, then they're less. That's what you said. I

1697
01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:11,119
hope the son does inspire at east less? Sorry?

1698
01:33:11,239 --> 01:33:14,600
Speaker 3: Uhuh so the spirit does he do? No, he doesn't,

1699
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:17,640
does he? So by that same John's Gospel, he says,

1700
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:19,439
I have everything the Father has.

1701
01:33:19,359 --> 01:33:23,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, except the causality as the Cappadotions and constantin Noble

1702
01:33:23,039 --> 01:33:25,800
One teach. So quoting the scripture, you're quoting the Cappadocians.

1703
01:33:26,319 --> 01:33:26,840
Uh scripture.

1704
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:29,720
Speaker 3: Oh wait a minute, So the concetpt Noble one is

1705
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:31,920
the dog of the Roman Kelly Church or not, because

1706
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:34,079
it says you have to follow the Cappadocian teaching all.

1707
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:35,840
Speaker 2: The Father is the sole cause, sole cause.

1708
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:40,840
Speaker 3: Now isn't it interesting that Roman Catholic scholars themselves have discussed,

1709
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:44,239
by the way, Basil talking about eternal manifestation in Edward

1710
01:33:44,319 --> 01:33:47,079
Kishenski's famous book The Philioka, which is one of the

1711
01:33:47,079 --> 01:33:50,119
more recent historical academic texts on that. Oh but wait

1712
01:33:50,159 --> 01:33:52,520
a minute, did you know it turns out that Sishansky

1713
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:55,920
actually went from Unionism to Orthodoxy. Why is that, Well,

1714
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:57,560
he wrote this book about the philio Oka and he

1715
01:33:57,640 --> 01:34:02,239
realized that. Turns out Basil teaches eternal manifestation on page

1716
01:34:02,239 --> 01:34:04,279
thirty nine, which oh you thought that was made up

1717
01:34:04,319 --> 01:34:06,399
in the Middle Ages, even though it's in Saint Basil.

1718
01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:08,720
Speaker 2: Oh, but it's also in the Mystagogy in book two.

1719
01:34:09,199 --> 01:34:11,079
So you're acclaiming all.

1720
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:13,079
Speaker 3: Of these things about what the Orthodox position is and

1721
01:34:13,159 --> 01:34:15,239
where it made all these mistakes. You don't have any

1722
01:34:15,279 --> 01:34:18,720
knowledge or familiarity with constantinumble one. And it's mandate that

1723
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:20,880
you have to follow the capitotion. Teaching on the Father

1724
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:23,439
is the sole cause. And in fact you give to

1725
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:26,680
the son the very thing that picks out the Father,

1726
01:34:27,079 --> 01:34:31,600
which thus creates a diad, as Photius.

1727
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:33,079
Speaker 2: Argued in the mystagogy originally.

1728
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:36,800
Speaker 3: Now to come back to this notion of the monarchia again,

1729
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:40,520
in John fifteen twenty six, Jesus illustrates our position when

1730
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:43,319
he says, when the helper comes, who I will send

1731
01:34:43,319 --> 01:34:46,640
to you from the Father. That's Economia, the spirit of truth,

1732
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:50,560
who proceeds from the Father. Procession is explicitly said by

1733
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:53,920
Jesus to be from the Father. Now Tim likes to say, ah,

1734
01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:55,439
but I can go to Romans, and I can go

1735
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:59,560
to Galatians four, and I can find Economia. Passage is

1736
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:02,199
where Jesus sends the Holy Spirit or it's called the

1737
01:35:02,239 --> 01:35:04,279
spirit of the Sun. And I can read that back

1738
01:35:04,359 --> 01:35:11,199
into the eternal trinitarian relations. No, you cannot, And I'll

1739
01:35:11,199 --> 01:35:14,239
give an example. In Isaiah forty eight, we're told that

1740
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:18,479
the Spirit sends the Son. Is that going to be

1741
01:35:19,079 --> 01:35:21,840
read back into the eternal relations in Isaiah forty eight.

1742
01:35:22,039 --> 01:35:25,199
Speaker 2: No, and this is a classic passage that Orthodox.

1743
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:27,399
Speaker 3: Church fathers have cited for centuries to show that you

1744
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:31,880
cannot arbitrarily say that the economic relations and passages can

1745
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:35,239
be read into the eternal triad. That's only it only

1746
01:35:35,279 --> 01:35:37,359
takes one example to show why you can't do that.

1747
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:45,479
Thomas Aquinas said persons are relations or persona at relatio. No,

1748
01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:49,119
a person is not a relation. A person is a subject.

1749
01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:53,600
And this is precisely why his essentialist trinitarian theology goes wrong.

1750
01:35:54,119 --> 01:35:56,960
You don't begin our trinitarian theology with the divine essence,

1751
01:35:57,239 --> 01:35:59,640
but rather with the person of the Father. And that's

1752
01:35:59,640 --> 01:36:02,800
what the Orthodox Church fathers teach. That's why we continue

1753
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:05,760
to uphold the Father as the soul arcade.

1754
01:36:06,039 --> 01:36:08,119
Speaker 2: Now beyond that, how much, how to have you have?

1755
01:36:08,359 --> 01:36:08,800
Three minutes?

1756
01:36:08,840 --> 01:36:12,760
Speaker 3: Okay, beyond that, I want to talk about his quotation

1757
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:14,199
which surprised me.

1758
01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:18,359
Speaker 2: He cited to Gregor of Nissa, and I don't think.

1759
01:36:18,239 --> 01:36:20,119
Speaker 3: He even understood what he was citing, because again he's

1760
01:36:20,119 --> 01:36:23,680
pulling from Quote Minds, where he said that every operation

1761
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:25,479
is from the Father through the Son and in the

1762
01:36:25,479 --> 01:36:27,520
Holy spirit. He is apparently not aware that this is

1763
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:30,720
the Basilian dictum that every Orthodox person knows very clearly

1764
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:34,399
from the liturgy, which is about the movement of the energies.

1765
01:36:34,560 --> 01:36:37,000
If you'd actually read Nissa in that section, you would

1766
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:41,279
know that he's talking about the energetic procession, which is

1767
01:36:41,319 --> 01:36:44,119
the same thing as energetic manifestation.

1768
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:46,560
Speaker 2: But you didn't know that. You just saw a quote

1769
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:46,960
mind that.

1770
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 3: You thought would help to prove philioak way, when it's

1771
01:36:50,039 --> 01:36:52,720
actually the opposite of philiokuay. So I'm glad that you

1772
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:58,119
cited this, because energetic manifestation or energetic procession is very

1773
01:36:58,119 --> 01:36:59,359
crucial to our doctrine.

1774
01:36:59,439 --> 01:37:00,880
Speaker 2: The reason that we don't.

1775
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 3: Believe in the Latin definition is precisely because they don't

1776
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:09,720
understand that the movement of the energies is necessarily connected

1777
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:13,680
to rejecting the person of the son as a spirator

1778
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:14,319
of the spirit.

1779
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:16,560
Speaker 2: So no, he's only.

1780
01:37:16,359 --> 01:37:18,279
Speaker 3: Shown that he didn't understand any of what he read,

1781
01:37:18,479 --> 01:37:21,319
if he even read it. Furthermore, the letter to Marhinus

1782
01:37:21,359 --> 01:37:23,840
that he quoted doesn't say the Latins are correct what

1783
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:26,399
Maximus says, and the letter to Marhus is that at

1784
01:37:26,399 --> 01:37:29,159
this point it's unclear what they mean. We ought to

1785
01:37:29,279 --> 01:37:32,039
just leave it up to an open question, and it's

1786
01:37:32,039 --> 01:37:35,079
not solved until twelve to seventy four of the Council Lions.

1787
01:37:35,159 --> 01:37:38,119
So this happens many centuries later, and we would agree

1788
01:37:38,159 --> 01:37:40,800
that at that time it was not exactly clear because

1789
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:43,319
if you read Saint Hilary Portier, guess what he doesn't

1790
01:37:43,359 --> 01:37:46,199
teach philioque, as Sushenski admits, he teaches that the father

1791
01:37:46,319 --> 01:37:49,119
is the soul monarchia in the godhead. All that the

1792
01:37:49,159 --> 01:37:52,239
father has belongs to the son is correct, except not

1793
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:56,760
paternity or causality. So it is not the case exclusively

1794
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:58,800
that all that the father has belongs to the son.

1795
01:37:59,199 --> 01:38:02,159
And anybody who knows orthoxiology would know that there's no

1796
01:38:02,199 --> 01:38:07,039
semantic dodge. As we said, Toodius doesn't teach anything different.

1797
01:38:07,039 --> 01:38:09,319
In fact, in eternal manifestation, if you'd read some of

1798
01:38:09,359 --> 01:38:18,439
this from people on our side, is found in the Cappadocians. Yeah,

1799
01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:19,680
I'll go ahead and just stop.

1800
01:38:19,399 --> 01:38:22,720
Speaker 1: With that, all right, You have an additional forty five seconds.

1801
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:25,520
You can add it to any one of your positions.

1802
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:27,720
As we're talking about. Well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Okay,

1803
01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:28,640
you want to have this second.

1804
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:30,680
Speaker 2: Okay, go ahead, you have forty five seconds left. Okay.

1805
01:38:31,159 --> 01:38:36,600
Speaker 3: So where do we get the idea that this both

1806
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:40,560
essence energy teaching which is directly connected to the person

1807
01:38:40,560 --> 01:38:43,680
of the Father as the sole monarchia in the Godhead. Notice,

1808
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:48,199
the Cappadocians don't teach monotheism. They never talk about monotheism,

1809
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:50,359
if in anyone and by the way I sent all

1810
01:38:50,359 --> 01:38:52,279
this information to him, I told him to listen to

1811
01:38:52,319 --> 01:38:55,680
doctor bro Bo Brandtson's lectures on the monarchy of the Father,

1812
01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:58,479
because he would have been able to see that in

1813
01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:00,640
on the Holy Spirit of Saint Basil, Letter thirty eight

1814
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:04,720
to Saint Basil and Nissa against Eunomius, by both Basil

1815
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:08,800
and against Unomius Nisa theological orations, particularly Ration twenty five,

1816
01:39:09,760 --> 01:39:11,960
we have in those statements and as well as the

1817
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:14,600
decree of Constantinople one, that you must follow the Cappadocian

1818
01:39:14,720 --> 01:39:17,960
view that the One God is the Father. There is

1819
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:21,359
no identification of the One God as the Essence as

1820
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:25,199
is taught in Augustinian theology. It just so happens that

1821
01:39:25,279 --> 01:39:28,239
in Tim's mind, in the Roman Catholic mind, all the

1822
01:39:28,239 --> 01:39:32,960
world accepted Augustinian theology is trinitarian, but they're totally ignorant

1823
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:36,760
of constantinople One's Cappadocian theology. And guess what, Augustine's not

1824
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:39,680
taught theology is not taught a constantineble one.

1825
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:42,399
Speaker 1: All right, I would like to hear one's in the chat.

1826
01:39:42,399 --> 01:39:44,399
If you think for the opening statement one's the chat,

1827
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:46,079
do you feel like there was a stronger or I

1828
01:39:46,079 --> 01:39:49,439
shouldn't say feel Do you confidently know before your family

1829
01:39:49,479 --> 01:39:51,880
and God that Jay Dire had a stronger argument? And

1830
01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:54,600
two do you confidently know between your family and God

1831
01:39:55,079 --> 01:39:57,760
that Timothy Gordon had a stronger argument? As you're writing

1832
01:39:57,760 --> 01:40:01,359
that down, let's go ahead and we will jump in

1833
01:40:01,359 --> 01:40:04,720
to our rebuttals. Are you prepared and ready to uh

1834
01:40:04,880 --> 01:40:07,279
to rebuttal? All right, Timothy, I'm gonna go ahead and

1835
01:40:07,279 --> 01:40:10,000
reset the clock. You're going to have five minutes. Give

1836
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:13,399
me one moment here to adjust and set the clock.

1837
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:15,680
All right, If you're ready, your time starts now.

1838
01:40:16,319 --> 01:40:21,239
Speaker 2: Okay, Uh. Constantinople One wasn't outside of communion. Jay misspoke there.

1839
01:40:21,359 --> 01:40:25,039
Malicius was in communion, so it was an in communion

1840
01:40:25,199 --> 01:40:27,840
council unless I misheard Je you said it was outside

1841
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:32,800
of communion a source on that. The father. Also, the

1842
01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:36,920
father is the only auto theos. Well, malicious was in communion.

1843
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:41,399
It's a communion council. Uh, people check, I don't want

1844
01:40:41,399 --> 01:40:45,000
to waste my time. The father is the only auto theos.

1845
01:40:45,159 --> 01:40:47,399
The ark is the father. Now this is this is

1846
01:40:47,479 --> 01:40:50,760
my my soul time here, check it, google it. Uh.

1847
01:40:51,199 --> 01:40:54,960
The father is the only auto theos is basic constantinople

1848
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:58,680
one was before before out of communion. Have you read Basil.

1849
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:01,600
We're talking about Malaysia. Jay, let's ask some questions during

1850
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:04,920
during during this first sex faults. So the father, the

1851
01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:07,920
father is the only auto theos. This is absolutely affirmed

1852
01:41:08,000 --> 01:41:11,439
by Catholic theology. One of Jay's tricks that everyone everyone

1853
01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:13,439
has to look out for is he'll just say, well,

1854
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:16,359
this is Cappadocia. Have you read Cappadocian theology. That well,

1855
01:41:16,399 --> 01:41:21,119
according to Catholic theology, the father is the only auto theos.

1856
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:25,279
According to Phillyoquay, father is the only auto theos. The

1857
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:29,560
ark is the fathers according to Catholic theology. According to

1858
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:33,039
the Phillyoquay the ark is the father's Let me say that,

1859
01:41:33,520 --> 01:41:38,479
and it's not subordination to say Philly Oquay because they're

1860
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:42,560
all the essence, and because of the relations of opposition

1861
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:47,119
between the three persons of the Trinity, they're all the essence,

1862
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:51,720
and because of passive spiration of the Holy Spirit. Now,

1863
01:41:52,279 --> 01:41:55,039
you can quibble with scripture if you want. When Jesus

1864
01:41:55,039 --> 01:41:59,079
says in Gone John's Gospel that all the Father has

1865
01:41:59,199 --> 01:42:02,119
I have as well, evidently Jay didn't read that all

1866
01:42:02,199 --> 01:42:05,359
the Father has I have as well, and he's saying

1867
01:42:05,399 --> 01:42:09,319
that it's subordinationism for me to read that scripture and

1868
01:42:09,359 --> 01:42:13,079
to say, Okay, two of the persons can have active

1869
01:42:13,119 --> 01:42:16,079
spiration and one of the persons, the Holy Spirit, can

1870
01:42:16,119 --> 01:42:19,640
have something called passive spiration. But that's the fact. The

1871
01:42:19,640 --> 01:42:23,720
Father is the Autotheos, that's the ARKA. Retards in Chad

1872
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:27,239
are probably saying something like, oh this is this is Orthodox. No,

1873
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:30,119
this is Catholic. This is Catholic as well. Of course

1874
01:42:30,159 --> 01:42:33,199
the ark is the Father's. For the retards out there,

1875
01:42:33,279 --> 01:42:37,640
only the divine, the Divine Essence only comes in an

1876
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:42,600
ungenerated way to the Father. Now, the Son is the

1877
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:45,760
only begotten. He gets it from the Father. So we'll

1878
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:50,000
say it again, the Holy Spirit gets it from the source,

1879
01:42:50,079 --> 01:42:54,399
from the ark of the fathers through the Son. This

1880
01:42:54,520 --> 01:42:59,159
is not subordinationism. There's spiration happening actively from the Father

1881
01:42:59,239 --> 01:43:02,920
and the Son and the Spirit. Now I wouldn't be

1882
01:43:03,039 --> 01:43:05,359
making this bold claim, and neither would the Roman Catholic

1883
01:43:05,479 --> 01:43:10,920
Church via filioque, if not for passages where Jesus affirms

1884
01:43:11,319 --> 01:43:16,439
explicitly over against Jadier and any what else he wants

1885
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:22,279
to sight that everything he has comes from the Father explicitly.

1886
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:28,159
And so this is Saint Hilary of Poitier concerning the

1887
01:43:28,159 --> 01:43:31,199
Holy Spirit. He is of the Father and the Son

1888
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:34,760
his sources. I'll say that again. He is of the

1889
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:38,000
Father and the Son his sources. Or he is not

1890
01:43:38,159 --> 01:43:41,319
without origin. He is from the Father and the Son.

1891
01:43:41,399 --> 01:43:43,399
This is about as explicit as you can be. And

1892
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:49,439
Jay's saying just because I don't know, he's accuse me

1893
01:43:49,479 --> 01:43:52,600
of quote mining. Let me read it again. The Holy

1894
01:43:52,640 --> 01:43:56,239
Spirit is from the Father and the Son his sources.

1895
01:43:56,239 --> 01:43:59,800
Not to say that the Father is not the only autotheos,

1896
01:43:59,840 --> 01:44:03,560
but the sources still can be the Father with the son.

1897
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:07,399
Where he's not without origin. He is from the Father

1898
01:44:07,720 --> 01:44:11,359
and the Son. If ever there was a time the

1899
01:44:11,399 --> 01:44:13,479
Father was not, then the son was not. If ever

1900
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:14,960
there was a time when the Son was not, then

1901
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:17,239
the Holy Spirit was not. I don't know how this

1902
01:44:17,319 --> 01:44:21,880
is merely an economic relation. This is Gregory Nazianzas, and

1903
01:44:22,359 --> 01:44:26,720
it seems really strange to be talking about nazianzas As

1904
01:44:26,840 --> 01:44:30,399
if this is not some sort of eternal relation drawn

1905
01:44:30,439 --> 01:44:33,119
between the Father and the Son. Tell me where I'm wrong,

1906
01:44:33,840 --> 01:44:35,800
Tell me where I'm wrong, if this is eternal or not.

1907
01:44:40,359 --> 01:44:43,319
When the Helper this is John fifteen, verse twenty six.

1908
01:44:43,359 --> 01:44:45,640
I just want to get this out. When the Helper comes,

1909
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:48,960
whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit

1910
01:44:49,079 --> 01:44:51,680
of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear

1911
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:56,199
witness about me. I don't know with regard to Orthodox

1912
01:44:56,239 --> 01:44:59,279
theology what this means, but this is scripture, and it

1913
01:44:59,319 --> 01:45:07,119
is utterly clear. It is the Father, the source, the

1914
01:45:07,199 --> 01:45:12,000
direct spirator, through the Son, another direct spirator sending the

1915
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:17,840
Holy Spirit. This does not contradict the ark being solely gods,

1916
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:21,359
the moan arcade of gods. All right, time, all.

1917
01:45:21,399 --> 01:45:23,680
Speaker 1: Right, So as we have the rebuttal there, we're gonna

1918
01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:26,239
go ahead and we're gonna move over to Uh, We're

1919
01:45:26,279 --> 01:45:27,479
gonna move over to Jay.

1920
01:45:28,079 --> 01:45:29,399
Speaker 2: You're gonna have five minutes on the clock.

1921
01:45:29,479 --> 01:45:31,239
Speaker 1: Let's try to keep it tight for the sake of

1922
01:45:31,279 --> 01:45:33,720
the length of the of the debate and.

1923
01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:35,399
Speaker 2: Make sure people are able to watch the whole thing.

1924
01:45:35,439 --> 01:45:37,960
So you have five minutes. Are you ready? Just to

1925
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:39,119
make sure you have your notes in front of you.

1926
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:43,840
All right, great, all right, Jane, you can begin now. Yeah.

1927
01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:49,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think Tim understands half of what

1928
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:53,359
he's talking about, because if he wanted to pull out

1929
01:45:53,399 --> 01:45:57,000
the Hillary quote. First of all, Shansky admits on that

1930
01:45:57,079 --> 01:46:00,000
section on Hillary that this isn't really a good argue

1931
01:46:00,359 --> 01:46:03,319
for anything to do with the philioquid. For one, Tim

1932
01:46:03,359 --> 01:46:05,159
may not have heard or may not be aware what

1933
01:46:05,239 --> 01:46:09,279
the lions in Florence definition actually is. But he tried

1934
01:46:09,319 --> 01:46:13,880
to pull Hillary to say his sources. Are you aware

1935
01:46:13,920 --> 01:46:16,760
that lions and Florence teach that the father together are

1936
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:20,680
a single source of spiration? In your view, there's no

1937
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:23,760
dual sources. It's not the father and the son. So

1938
01:46:24,399 --> 01:46:27,000
either Hillary got it wrong or that's not a text

1939
01:46:27,039 --> 01:46:33,319
that proves eternal hypostatic double procession. The tacks in scripture,

1940
01:46:33,359 --> 01:46:36,479
as I pointed out, don't necessarily prove what he thinks

1941
01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:39,520
they prove. Again, because I pointed out in Isaiah forty eight,

1942
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:42,560
the text says that the Spirit sent the Son, and

1943
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:43,920
that's a messianic prophecy.

1944
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:44,279
Speaker 2: Section.

1945
01:46:44,359 --> 01:46:46,840
Speaker 3: Nobody believes that the Holy Spirit is the center of

1946
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:49,800
the Son. If you read that economia back into the

1947
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:53,319
eternal relations. Again, he didn't address the argument I made

1948
01:46:53,399 --> 01:46:58,159
about the power of generating inspirating. He said that the

1949
01:46:58,199 --> 01:47:02,520
son must have this because because it shows also that

1950
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:04,800
he's equal to the Father, because he has everything that

1951
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:07,720
the Father has. Again, he's not realizing that when I'm

1952
01:47:07,760 --> 01:47:10,640
citing the Cappadocians, I'm not just citing church fathers because

1953
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:15,000
I'm citing them as random opinions. I'm citing what the

1954
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:17,880
decree of constantinople One says, which is that you must

1955
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:22,760
follow the Cappadocian dictum and the Cappadocian interpretation of the

1956
01:47:22,840 --> 01:47:26,640
Niceno constant of the Politan creed. When the creed from

1957
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:29,920
that council, which was an edited version of nicea One's creed,

1958
01:47:30,039 --> 01:47:33,239
says I believe in one God, the Father. It is

1959
01:47:33,319 --> 01:47:37,680
identifying it as the Cappadocians all teach the sole source

1960
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:41,319
or rka or monarchia of the Father. It is not

1961
01:47:41,760 --> 01:47:46,199
the Latin essentialist definitions of Thomas Aquinas and later Roman

1962
01:47:46,239 --> 01:47:48,319
Catholic councils, which, by the way, refutes what he said

1963
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:50,039
the first time around when he tried to make the

1964
01:47:50,119 --> 01:47:51,880
Church Fathers into aristotomists.

1965
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:53,239
Speaker 2: Again, they're not.

1966
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:58,880
Speaker 3: Furthermore, he said in his opening statement that a sayety

1967
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:02,920
God is when he was cashing out his divine simplicity

1968
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:06,439
act as Purist doctrine, a sayety a sayty means self

1969
01:48:06,479 --> 01:48:08,479
existence or of oneself.

1970
01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:10,199
Speaker 2: That's what autotheos is.

1971
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:12,840
Speaker 3: So now he's attributing the very thing that he argued

1972
01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:15,359
in his opening statement about the divine essence to the

1973
01:48:15,359 --> 01:48:19,640
person of the Father, showing that he confuses essential properties

1974
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:23,000
with hyposthetic properties. But what do we expect from people

1975
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:25,239
who think that relations of opposition is a way to

1976
01:48:25,319 --> 01:48:28,560
cash out something in the triad? Nobody in the Church

1977
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:31,760
and the Church Fathers teaches a relation of oppositions, Because,

1978
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:35,199
as east Congar says in his famous essay on sant

1979
01:48:35,199 --> 01:48:39,199
Agustin and the Kappadocians, that's an Augustinian idea that's developed

1980
01:48:39,199 --> 01:48:41,520
in Thomas Aquinas. It doesn't exist in the first thousand

1981
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:44,119
years of the Church. And again because he actually thinks

1982
01:48:44,119 --> 01:48:48,319
that relations are persons, because that's the tonistic teaching, when no,

1983
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,760
a relation is something that a subject has, right, a

1984
01:48:52,840 --> 01:48:57,680
subject has a relation, A relation is a predicate. Subjects persons.

1985
01:48:57,920 --> 01:49:00,840
He the father, so he doesn't underst and these basic

1986
01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:04,039
distinctions that the Eastern Church fathers make, which he would

1987
01:49:04,079 --> 01:49:05,760
have done a lot better to actually have read these

1988
01:49:05,800 --> 01:49:07,960
Eastern Church fathers or to actually read maybe some of

1989
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,640
the academic texts from his own theologians about the Philioquay,

1990
01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:14,359
admitting that a lot of these quote minds don't actually

1991
01:49:14,399 --> 01:49:17,359
work to prove anything and actually work against his case

1992
01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:21,439
because again he wants to downplay his own church's dogmatic definition,

1993
01:49:21,479 --> 01:49:24,399
and he's patently totally false. I've got scholars here right

1994
01:49:24,439 --> 01:49:26,960
next to me for years have been talking about the

1995
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:30,920
fact that Constantinople one closed outside of communion with Rome.

1996
01:49:31,359 --> 01:49:34,520
Saint Melidius of Antioch was in schism with Rome. He

1997
01:49:34,560 --> 01:49:37,119
doesn't even know that, and so he just says google it,

1998
01:49:37,159 --> 01:49:41,199
which again shows he's deficient, totally deficient in this area.

1999
01:49:41,359 --> 01:49:44,239
It's the Malician schism is famous. Basil writes about it

2000
01:49:44,239 --> 01:49:46,359
in his letters, and in fact Basil says Rome is

2001
01:49:46,359 --> 01:49:49,199
absolutely worthless. They can contribute nothing to helping the church

2002
01:49:49,199 --> 01:49:51,880
in the East. They're a waste of time. Doesn't sound

2003
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:54,039
like papal supremacy to me. But what do you expect

2004
01:49:54,079 --> 01:49:56,039
from people who don't know what the Cappadocian's taught.

2005
01:49:56,039 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 2: They just think that they do, because well, I can

2006
01:49:58,479 --> 01:50:01,960
read it all through Thomas Aquinas. Thomas Aquinas when.

2007
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:05,520
Speaker 3: He argues against the Phillyoque in contra against the errors

2008
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:06,079
of the Greeks.

2009
01:50:06,399 --> 01:50:11,000
Speaker 2: I've got the recently printed book here. Guess what it's like,

2010
01:50:11,079 --> 01:50:13,000
sixty seventy forgeries.

2011
01:50:13,079 --> 01:50:15,520
Speaker 3: So shout out to George, our good buddy, and he

2012
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:19,079
just published the two volume Errors of the Latins text.

2013
01:50:19,439 --> 01:50:22,039
The second volume is all about forgeries, and one of

2014
01:50:22,079 --> 01:50:25,239
those key forgeries is against the errors of the Greeks

2015
01:50:25,239 --> 01:50:29,399
Thomas Aquinas. And it's entirely possible that Aquinas legitimately believe

2016
01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:33,239
that all the sources he was reading were authentic. But

2017
01:50:33,399 --> 01:50:35,720
now we know, and it's now admitted in the scholarship.

2018
01:50:35,720 --> 01:50:38,960
The Vatican admits it as well. I've got the Alexandria document, which,

2019
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:40,640
by the way, I don't know if Tim ever had

2020
01:50:40,640 --> 01:50:44,840
the time to read his own Vatican statement about the East,

2021
01:50:45,079 --> 01:50:48,199
both in she eighty and here it admits most of

2022
01:50:48,199 --> 01:50:49,600
the positions that I'm arguing for.

2023
01:50:50,279 --> 01:50:53,319
Speaker 1: Okay, So, like I said, let's get some ones in

2024
01:50:53,399 --> 01:50:54,800
two's in the chats. I want to read a couple

2025
01:50:54,800 --> 01:50:57,119
of the super chats that we have here as we

2026
01:50:57,119 --> 01:50:59,319
get into the cross examination game, just a second to

2027
01:50:59,359 --> 01:51:01,159
get their question in line of what they want to

2028
01:51:01,159 --> 01:51:04,479
talk about. Reminding you that you know, Buddy pp All

2029
01:51:04,479 --> 01:51:06,479
said Tim has been forsaken. Everyone got to donate to

2030
01:51:06,520 --> 01:51:09,640
the stream, or y'all are Yacubians? Like I mentioned. After that,

2031
01:51:10,159 --> 01:51:13,880
tego Ocho said, let's go. I also have a couple

2032
01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:17,119
of critics late night tweakers. A critic of Tim said

2033
01:51:17,159 --> 01:51:19,079
two dollars said, I feel embarrassed for Tim.

2034
01:51:19,159 --> 01:51:19,319
Speaker 2: Now.

2035
01:51:19,359 --> 01:51:23,439
Speaker 1: However, however, let's talk. God said, fy all polytheists idols

2036
01:51:23,479 --> 01:51:26,279
are created. Tim might be a polytheist, but others are

2037
01:51:26,319 --> 01:51:30,439
saying Jay Dyer ain't no Yukubian. You're not Yucubian.

2038
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:33,359
Speaker 2: Okay. Servant Nectoria said, Jake, keep it up.

2039
01:51:33,439 --> 01:51:35,319
Speaker 1: R CC is a joke. I'm sure that's a Roman

2040
01:51:35,319 --> 01:51:39,720
Catholic church. Maximus said, what I say has nothing to

2041
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:43,359
do with Jay. Also, we have let's talk. God said

2042
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:46,800
question for Tim, heaven has created? How can you see

2043
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:51,079
the divine essence in heaven in the beatific vision aka Creationean.

2044
01:51:51,640 --> 01:51:53,479
Speaker 2: I don't think we're gonna answer those questions right now.

2045
01:51:54,359 --> 01:51:57,279
Speaker 1: Don Visiu said, this is all retarded, splitting hairs over

2046
01:51:57,319 --> 01:52:01,560
divine theosophy leads no one to Christ.

2047
01:52:02,239 --> 01:52:03,479
Speaker 2: We also have real Carlism.

2048
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:05,199
Speaker 1: No matter what you think, who you think is winning,

2049
01:52:05,399 --> 01:52:08,199
We're all better off knowing this conversation is drowning out

2050
01:52:08,279 --> 01:52:15,800
James White's gay lisp. Also, we have machine Santo for

2051
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:18,239
two dollars, and they said, Jay looking twenty years older,

2052
01:52:18,239 --> 01:52:19,520
but he's defined cooking.

2053
01:52:20,680 --> 01:52:26,199
Speaker 2: Okay, Hey is he gay? Ass? Hey it's you know what? Yeah?

2054
01:52:27,079 --> 01:52:30,000
Do trust me, man, I've aged so much. I see myself.

2055
01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:32,079
Speaker 1: I've only been doing this for like about a decade now.

2056
01:52:32,319 --> 01:52:34,319
When I first started, I looked like a teenager, like

2057
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:36,039
you know, look like a nice little kid.

2058
01:52:36,039 --> 01:52:39,560
Speaker 2: And now I'm like nearly look dead. Warth thunder Us

2059
01:52:39,600 --> 01:52:40,640
sent thirty dollars.

2060
01:52:40,920 --> 01:52:43,399
Speaker 1: Said Tom was talking about potential equivocations in the start,

2061
01:52:43,479 --> 01:52:46,000
yet his arguments hinges on them. He sneaks in quote

2062
01:52:46,039 --> 01:52:49,960
denying actus purists passive potency as well sneaking in ortho

2063
01:52:50,359 --> 01:52:52,920
real distinction scholastic major real distinction.

2064
01:52:53,520 --> 01:52:54,520
Speaker 2: We also had a dork.

2065
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:56,520
Speaker 1: Jansen said, please ask mobs to ban anyone in the

2066
01:52:56,600 --> 01:52:58,880
chat who says that we should act more civil in chat.

2067
01:53:00,119 --> 01:53:02,279
Speaker 2: Fine, you guys can, guys go to war. And then

2068
01:53:02,560 --> 01:53:03,880
true for once seesaid.

2069
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:07,399
Speaker 1: Tim said, we can't experience any uncreatedness of God as creatures,

2070
01:53:07,399 --> 01:53:10,960
so how does the incarnation work? I'll read two more

2071
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:14,279
here before we'll move on to the cross examination. Cult

2072
01:53:14,359 --> 01:53:17,640
of Modernism said and quote, we deny the son is

2073
01:53:17,680 --> 01:53:20,199
either a cause or a father, but although we do

2074
01:53:20,279 --> 01:53:22,079
not say that the spirit is from the Sun, we

2075
01:53:22,159 --> 01:53:25,439
call him the spirit of the son. And he quotes there,

2076
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:28,159
and I think that's perhaps probably Latin, and I'm not

2077
01:53:28,199 --> 01:53:30,479
going to try to read it. Machine Santo also, I

2078
01:53:30,520 --> 01:53:32,359
wonder if he believes the son is begotten by the son,

2079
01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:34,720
because the son does what he sees the father doing.

2080
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:36,680
And one more quote from the same Culto as the

2081
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:38,720
second party said, the holy spirit is a spirit of

2082
01:53:38,760 --> 01:53:41,039
the Father as proceeding from the Father, and is the

2083
01:53:41,039 --> 01:53:44,199
Son's spirit not as originating from him, but as proceeding

2084
01:53:44,239 --> 01:53:49,159
through him from the Father the Father alone. It is cause.

2085
01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:51,479
All right, you guys, keep sending your super chaps. We'll

2086
01:53:51,479 --> 01:53:53,520
be reading some more after this. We're gonna jump into

2087
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:56,199
the cross examination. If you're just joining the stream here,

2088
01:53:56,239 --> 01:53:59,640
it's where they can ask questions and then interrupt. This

2089
01:53:59,720 --> 01:54:02,000
is a very strict format that they've agreed to, and

2090
01:54:02,039 --> 01:54:03,920
a lot of you are enjoying it. With that few

2091
01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:06,720
thousand of you watching across the platforms, I appreciate you

2092
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:08,399
guys watching. Don't for you to like, share and subscribe

2093
01:54:08,399 --> 01:54:11,680
to this video. Let's begin here with Timothy Gordon representing

2094
01:54:11,720 --> 01:54:14,479
the Catholic position. I'm going to reset the clock to

2095
01:54:14,640 --> 01:54:15,840
be one moment. I've got to get out of the

2096
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:18,760
super chats. Your time starts now.

2097
01:54:20,920 --> 01:54:27,159
Speaker 2: Jay, you think triadic relations of opposition don't exist. Triad

2098
01:54:27,359 --> 01:54:31,880
is three, opposition is two, precisely, so there's no opposition

2099
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,880
a triad. So within a triad, there cannot be individual

2100
01:54:35,359 --> 01:54:38,800
relations of opposition. It's relations of origin in our view, now,

2101
01:54:39,159 --> 01:54:41,439
not in your view. As a matter of nature. Have

2102
01:54:41,479 --> 01:54:45,039
you ever played paper scissors rock? Yeah? Do you understand

2103
01:54:45,079 --> 01:54:49,880
that paper scissors rock is at heart triadic relations of opposition,

2104
01:54:50,279 --> 01:54:53,159
which you just said don't exist. The triad does not

2105
01:54:53,279 --> 01:54:59,000
like paper rock scissors. No an, no, no, you said

2106
01:54:59,039 --> 01:55:02,680
that that can't exit because two is indivisible within three

2107
01:55:03,159 --> 01:55:08,399
relations of opposition we have, so as the trinity scissor

2108
01:55:08,479 --> 01:55:12,520
paper rock, paper, these can exist, Bill, reality can exist

2109
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:15,319
with fatherhood. You said this to Christian Wagner. Do you

2110
01:55:15,319 --> 01:55:18,119
care to amend your statement. It's a major logical I.

2111
01:55:18,279 --> 01:55:22,720
Speaker 3: Think that relations of opposition described the thing as relations

2112
01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:23,359
of origin.

2113
01:55:23,760 --> 01:55:25,880
Speaker 2: That's what I disagreed with. You said, there's a mathematical

2114
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:29,239
problem that two doesn't go into because the diad is

2115
01:55:29,319 --> 01:55:31,640
not a triad. But you understand that there can be

2116
01:55:31,720 --> 01:55:33,520
relations of opposition within a triad.

2117
01:55:34,159 --> 01:55:37,279
Speaker 3: Speaking naturally, there's not not in the divine triad.

2118
01:55:37,359 --> 01:55:45,520
Speaker 2: No, no, we'll explain why. I just demonstrated the relation. Okay,

2119
01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:48,640
so you're going to play the game. Demonstrated paper scissors

2120
01:55:48,720 --> 01:55:51,920
rocks doesn't exist. That's not the triad. That is a triad.

2121
01:55:52,000 --> 01:55:55,039
That's three there. Do you how many positions are there

2122
01:55:55,079 --> 01:56:00,119
with just three? And how many how many oppositions and

2123
01:56:00,319 --> 01:56:05,760
relations triad is so you have a different triadology, and

2124
01:56:05,800 --> 01:56:09,439
that's why this doesn't explain why it's different in the trinity,

2125
01:56:09,560 --> 01:56:12,920
because we works perfect because we You say that, but

2126
01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:14,920
you don't know our position relationship.

2127
01:56:14,960 --> 01:56:18,640
Speaker 3: I'm asking within the position of the trinity. Shut up

2128
01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:21,880
and let me answer that question. Your position relations of

2129
01:56:22,239 --> 01:56:25,920
origin is our position, not relation of opposition.

2130
01:56:26,159 --> 01:56:29,560
Speaker 2: This is just equivocation. Wait, no, I've heard enough. That's

2131
01:56:29,600 --> 01:56:32,800
equivocation on a turn. Equivocation. You said the orthodox position

2132
01:56:32,840 --> 01:56:35,119
is a quick quote. You're not even familiar with opposition,

2133
01:56:36,159 --> 01:56:39,960
Christian are I'm talking to one dude. Triadic relations of

2134
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:43,600
opposition cannot exist because two doesn't go into three. That's

2135
01:56:43,640 --> 01:56:46,479
what I said. I said, I diead is what opposition is.

2136
01:56:46,560 --> 01:56:48,199
I didn't say two doesn't go in I th that's

2137
01:56:49,439 --> 01:56:53,159
you're mistaking contrariety and opposition. You don't know you can

2138
01:56:53,279 --> 01:56:56,479
have an opposition with a relations position. How do you

2139
01:56:56,479 --> 01:56:57,399
don't know how? Patrician?

2140
01:56:57,439 --> 01:57:00,239
Speaker 3: So you haven't played number theory is not your you're

2141
01:57:00,279 --> 01:57:04,520
ever an now specialty the way that paper argues for

2142
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:05,760
a did.

2143
01:57:05,439 --> 01:57:07,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say he's asking he's asking you to

2144
01:57:07,399 --> 01:57:09,399
cut your response. He wants to continue on this questioning

2145
01:57:10,319 --> 01:57:14,199
within a triod. Within a triad, you can have oppositions

2146
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:17,479
and it doesn't contradict the triad. I showed the trinity

2147
01:57:17,720 --> 01:57:19,520
show that I created. You didn't show that. You just

2148
01:57:19,560 --> 01:57:22,279
said it it's an analogy. Well, how do you know,

2149
01:57:22,399 --> 01:57:23,720
How do you know what matches up to the triad?

2150
01:57:24,119 --> 01:57:27,079
You don't. No, I didn't say it matches up to

2151
01:57:27,119 --> 01:57:29,319
the triad. You're you're not cross examining.

2152
01:57:28,920 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 3: Your analogy doesn't work. I thought, that's the thing is

2153
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:32,640
it works perfectly.

2154
01:57:33,159 --> 01:57:37,640
Speaker 2: Reality, filiality in fatherhood, those are opposed within a trinity.

2155
01:57:39,600 --> 01:57:42,560
Speaker 3: You're saying they're not opposed. That's not what relations of opposition.

2156
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:47,279
Speaker 2: Forget my analogy oppress This is the most important distinction

2157
01:57:47,399 --> 01:57:50,039
within the entire philio O. Wait, hold on, So you're

2158
01:57:50,079 --> 01:57:54,319
saying that affiliation and fatherhood are not opposed in the

2159
01:57:54,359 --> 01:57:56,720
traditional ways of a couple.

2160
01:57:56,720 --> 01:57:59,359
Speaker 3: Will you let me answer this please? Are they opposed?

2161
01:57:59,359 --> 01:58:00,720
There are real relations?

2162
01:58:01,479 --> 01:58:03,399
Speaker 2: Are they opposed? Let me finish.

2163
01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:07,159
Speaker 3: We do not believe in cashing out who the persons

2164
01:58:07,239 --> 01:58:11,680
are by relations of opposition, because it's relative.

2165
01:58:11,800 --> 01:58:15,720
Speaker 2: So filiation and fatherhood are not opposed. It's relative because

2166
01:58:16,159 --> 01:58:18,840
you because there's the third part. They're not a posed.

2167
01:58:19,119 --> 01:58:21,840
Speaker 3: You can talk about relations in the triad, but they

2168
01:58:21,880 --> 01:58:25,239
don't ground the persons. That's Lostky's critique of this. You

2169
01:58:25,279 --> 01:58:26,560
could have just read the things.

2170
01:58:26,359 --> 01:58:28,119
Speaker 2: I sent you, and then you want to be asking no, no,

2171
01:58:28,119 --> 01:58:30,159
no no, because you didn't read anything I asked you.

2172
01:58:30,359 --> 01:58:35,159
Speaker 3: I asked you very specifically. Can there be oppositional terms

2173
01:58:35,239 --> 01:58:38,359
that I'm telling you from ourselves? You don't understand? Is

2174
01:58:38,399 --> 01:58:42,439
the way that dichotomies work. We can have we can dichotomies.

2175
01:58:43,159 --> 01:58:45,720
Speaker 2: All I was showing mathematically is that we can conceive

2176
01:58:46,079 --> 01:58:50,359
of a triad that has three parts and three relations

2177
01:58:50,359 --> 01:58:54,479
that are all diadic. But there's there's no part. It's

2178
01:58:54,520 --> 01:58:58,319
just parts, and it doesn't work there. No, of course,

2179
01:58:58,359 --> 01:59:00,439
not right. So that's what doesn't work. But there are

2180
01:59:00,479 --> 01:59:03,520
relations of opposition, No, there's not. Yeah, there's relations of origin.

2181
01:59:03,640 --> 01:59:05,880
Speaker 3: Well, why don't you just understand our position before trying

2182
01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:07,199
to trap me on your position?

2183
01:59:07,319 --> 01:59:09,840
Speaker 2: I don't hold to your position? Can you? Is there

2184
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:13,520
a single Eastern thinker between Photius and Blacker? Okay, so

2185
01:59:13,520 --> 01:59:16,119
we got that. So there there can be relations of

2186
01:59:16,159 --> 01:59:20,000
opposition between some trinities. Uh, I never granted any of this.

2187
01:59:20,199 --> 01:59:23,159
Is there a single Eastern thinker between Photius and Blackeranne

2188
01:59:23,239 --> 01:59:27,279
who embraces the eternal procession? Or they all just believers

2189
01:59:27,319 --> 01:59:30,920
in economic procession for those four hundred years. Can you

2190
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:36,560
name a single thinker between eight hundred and twelve fifty

2191
01:59:36,880 --> 01:59:40,560
who says that there is an eternal procession from the

2192
01:59:40,600 --> 01:59:41,920
Sun to the Holy Spirit?

2193
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:45,560
Speaker 3: Energetic procession is taught in the telmost against John Becos,

2194
01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:48,960
it's in our council. Okay, Wait, so you think you

2195
01:59:48,960 --> 01:59:51,840
don't know what our councils teach. I'm asking you, right,

2196
01:59:52,279 --> 01:59:54,960
but is there a single person and you're not you're

2197
01:59:54,960 --> 01:59:57,319
not aware of the temost against John Becko's You guys

2198
01:59:57,359 --> 02:00:00,760
have thirty seconds, son, but so so, can you explain

2199
02:00:00,800 --> 02:00:03,000
to me what that is? It's a document from the

2200
02:00:03,000 --> 02:00:06,399
Palamite sonods in use against John Becko's Palamite sentence.

2201
02:00:06,439 --> 02:00:09,319
Speaker 2: What year they're in? The thirteen hundreds? Okay? No, I said,

2202
02:00:09,399 --> 02:00:11,920
I wore between eight hundred and twelve fifty. I picked

2203
02:00:12,239 --> 02:00:16,840
the dates for specific reason. What if, because it's very

2204
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:20,880
important to my case. The Catholic cases that between serial

2205
02:00:21,279 --> 02:00:25,600
between Photius and serial areas, they completely botched the understanding

2206
02:00:25,680 --> 02:00:27,840
of what Philly o'quay is, and then for the next

2207
02:00:27,840 --> 02:00:30,720
four hundred and fifty years they reduced all the relations

2208
02:00:30,760 --> 02:00:34,119
between the Sun and the Holy Spirit to economic ones.

2209
02:00:34,359 --> 02:00:37,119
And then when they came back around the time of

2210
02:00:37,159 --> 02:00:41,359
the council, you're citing that they came back in parsed language.

2211
02:00:41,399 --> 02:00:43,359
It's eternal, but it's not hypostatic.

2212
02:00:43,399 --> 02:00:45,000
Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna have to cut that there, and

2213
02:00:45,000 --> 02:00:46,560
if you want to continue to respond to that, we're

2214
02:00:46,560 --> 02:00:48,760
gonna have to move over to Jay Dyer. Let me

2215
02:00:48,800 --> 02:00:51,560
go ahead and reset this, and you have five minutes

2216
02:00:51,600 --> 02:00:53,359
on the clock. I gave him a minute bleed because

2217
02:00:53,399 --> 02:00:55,439
it was interesting. I'll give you an extra minute bleed

2218
02:00:55,439 --> 02:00:57,039
if you need to as well. The time starts now.

2219
02:00:57,159 --> 02:00:59,920
Speaker 3: It's a stupid argument because I showed you from Sishensky

2220
02:01:00,079 --> 02:01:03,439
that he says Basil talks about eternal manifestation. The very

2221
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:06,560
quote that you gave from Nissa about the movement of

2222
02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:09,600
the energies. You didn't even know that it's energetic procession.

2223
02:01:09,920 --> 02:01:12,479
So you read things and you quote things, no idea

2224
02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:15,720
what the context is, or that it's actually disproving.

2225
02:01:15,199 --> 02:01:17,800
Speaker 2: You not true. You're begging the question, begging the question

2226
02:01:18,159 --> 02:01:22,159
energetic procession, what does that even mean? You cided Nissa,

2227
02:01:22,439 --> 02:01:25,520
every operation moves from the Father through the son in

2228
02:01:25,560 --> 02:01:28,520
the spirit precisely, what do you think operation is there?

2229
02:01:29,680 --> 02:01:31,119
What do you mean? What is that? What's the word?

2230
02:01:31,800 --> 02:01:35,640
What is what's the word of the means hypostatic? What's

2231
02:01:35,680 --> 02:01:38,800
the word for operating? Begging the question because you're begging

2232
02:01:38,880 --> 02:01:44,039
the question because what's energetic procession? What's the word is? Right?

2233
02:01:44,199 --> 02:01:48,079
You use to avoid saying that it moves? To you, goober,

2234
02:01:48,359 --> 02:01:51,720
what's the word when you're talking about the word in

2235
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:55,439
the Greek for operation? There, I don't, I don't know erga. Yeah,

2236
02:01:55,720 --> 02:01:58,239
I just said so the movement energy in your quote,

2237
02:01:58,279 --> 02:02:02,720
but except energeia has three definitions that are that are

2238
02:02:02,760 --> 02:02:05,680
susceptible of meaning there you would you know? This is

2239
02:02:05,680 --> 02:02:10,079
what I warned people that your own Yeah you don't, No,

2240
02:02:10,199 --> 02:02:14,279
you don't, which can mean either operation, It can mean action,

2241
02:02:14,439 --> 02:02:16,359
it can mean work, it can mean product.

2242
02:02:16,399 --> 02:02:18,159
Speaker 3: You just admitted you didn't know what the word was.

2243
02:02:18,279 --> 02:02:21,920
Now what I said is that the did you requires?

2244
02:02:22,119 --> 02:02:27,560
So if it's energy, if it's a word, show that

2245
02:02:27,600 --> 02:02:30,319
it's not hypostatic. That has nothing to do with the

2246
02:02:30,319 --> 02:02:33,159
fact that you misunderstood the quote. No, I didn't misunderstand

2247
02:02:33,199 --> 02:02:33,560
it at all.

2248
02:02:33,680 --> 02:02:37,760
Speaker 2: I didn't miss about energetic procession. You didn't know that

2249
02:02:37,920 --> 02:02:40,079
because you didn't know what it was. Yes, I did.

2250
02:02:40,079 --> 02:02:43,760
I said it. You're just lied because you said you

2251
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:46,920
didn't know what it was energy. But the point is

2252
02:02:47,079 --> 02:02:49,319
you didn't know. You're begging the question, you know as

2253
02:02:49,720 --> 02:02:54,079
you knows, versus you have to lie the question, isn't.

2254
02:02:54,119 --> 02:02:56,279
You're changing the subject because you just got caught lying.

2255
02:02:56,359 --> 02:02:59,319
I didn't get caught lying. I said before you did.

2256
02:03:00,079 --> 02:03:03,640
Why why does it matter? Here's how Jay proved because

2257
02:03:04,199 --> 02:03:04,840
that energetic.

2258
02:03:06,319 --> 02:03:09,800
Speaker 1: Because look, we're going we're going in circles right now,

2259
02:03:10,560 --> 02:03:12,960
and we're gonna have to agree to disagreeable. On the

2260
02:03:13,000 --> 02:03:15,840
next section, you said, if one, uh, you have three minutes,

2261
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:19,159
if one spire, if one cannot spirate, there less does

2262
02:03:19,159 --> 02:03:19,880
the spirit produce?

2263
02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:22,800
Speaker 2: A Person's ridiculous. I don't care if you think it's ridiculous.

2264
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:27,359
Answer it. Repeat the question. You said, if one cannot spirrate,

2265
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:31,199
they're less talking about the sun, right, m H, Well,

2266
02:03:31,239 --> 02:03:33,640
I was talking about all three persons. Oh so the

2267
02:03:33,640 --> 02:03:37,640
spirit spirates, yeah, passively, the past spirit spir rates. The

2268
02:03:37,640 --> 02:03:42,439
spirit spirates passively. He produced, Well, who does he produce?

2269
02:03:43,079 --> 02:03:47,960
Does he produce? He rates passively? You've never heard the distinction, No,

2270
02:03:48,119 --> 02:03:53,880
who does the Spirit produce. The Spirit produces passively himself.

2271
02:03:54,359 --> 02:03:59,399
Hit the spirit act the spirit. If you never heard

2272
02:03:59,399 --> 02:04:02,319
the distinction between active and passive spiration is the have

2273
02:04:02,439 --> 02:04:05,039
you is the essence of the source, according to see

2274
02:04:05,319 --> 02:04:07,079
all you do. You could come in here and you say,

2275
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:11,600
according to my theology, it's this. According to campus theology,

2276
02:04:12,760 --> 02:04:16,760
our theologian is passive the spirit. You got to answer

2277
02:04:16,800 --> 02:04:19,760
the question. We're not going to run the clock. The

2278
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:24,640
Holy Spirit proceed inspirates passively, which means it's done to him. Yes,

2279
02:04:24,720 --> 02:04:30,199
he receives it active versus passive. So yes, he himself aspirted.

2280
02:04:30,279 --> 02:04:31,640
We call that active aspiration.

2281
02:04:31,760 --> 02:04:33,920
Speaker 3: Did you even know that? You know it's the Son?

2282
02:04:34,159 --> 02:04:36,640
Are you familiar? Are you familiar who the Holy Spirit?

2283
02:04:36,640 --> 02:04:38,199
You're saying the Holy Spirit produces himself?

2284
02:04:39,000 --> 02:04:43,840
Speaker 2: No, I said, that receives spiration from and this is

2285
02:04:43,880 --> 02:04:47,800
a passive spiration. Who does hespirate? He doesn't actively spired?

2286
02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:49,880
Who does thespirate? You said he has to he has

2287
02:04:49,920 --> 02:04:52,239
to spirate to have the same part. You're just playing

2288
02:04:52,279 --> 02:04:57,119
games again because you don't know the Father son actively spirate.

2289
02:04:57,239 --> 02:04:59,920
You think it's the Father only in Roman Catholic the

2290
02:05:00,279 --> 02:05:01,800
tell me what I think the Holy Spirit.

2291
02:05:01,840 --> 02:05:05,159
Speaker 3: He's answering the question claimed that the Holy I'm just

2292
02:05:05,199 --> 02:05:07,279
telling you how a theology has You're just talking and

2293
02:05:07,319 --> 02:05:10,039
you're insisting because I've got you on this. You have

2294
02:05:10,119 --> 02:05:12,560
not you said that if you don't produce a person,

2295
02:05:12,560 --> 02:05:13,439
you're supporting it.

2296
02:05:13,560 --> 02:05:16,800
Speaker 2: Who does the Holy Spirit produce? No? I said, spir eight,

2297
02:05:17,000 --> 02:05:19,680
you have to spy if you don't back up the rest.

2298
02:05:19,760 --> 02:05:22,920
Does son have the same power as the father? Yes?

2299
02:05:23,079 --> 02:05:26,159
Does the spirit have that power? The Spirit has a

2300
02:05:26,199 --> 02:05:29,439
different power, which is to what wishable to produce who? No,

2301
02:05:29,560 --> 02:05:32,359
it's a passive spirit who, which is not the same

2302
02:05:32,399 --> 02:05:34,880
thing it's actively produced. So he does I thought the

2303
02:05:34,960 --> 02:05:37,000
language cause? So the spirit is not a cause. You've

2304
02:05:37,039 --> 02:05:40,279
never heard this distinction in Roman Catholic theology. Spirit a cause?

2305
02:05:41,119 --> 02:05:43,600
Have you ever heard this distinction in Roman? Not answer you?

2306
02:05:43,640 --> 02:05:45,960
Speaker 3: He won't answer the questions because he doesn't. Is the

2307
02:05:45,960 --> 02:05:46,680
spirit of causes?

2308
02:05:46,920 --> 02:05:50,079
Speaker 2: A cause? Is the spirit of thirty seconds on the

2309
02:05:50,119 --> 02:05:51,319
clock to get an answer? Or do you want to

2310
02:05:51,359 --> 02:05:55,039
end the question? Is the Holy Spirit? There's also a cause?

2311
02:05:55,199 --> 02:05:57,640
He is the cause in so far as he's passively spied?

2312
02:05:57,760 --> 02:05:58,319
Who or what?

2313
02:05:59,600 --> 02:05:59,680
Speaker 1: Of?

2314
02:05:59,720 --> 02:06:04,079
Speaker 2: Who? Are what? Exactly? He just lost. No, wh you

2315
02:06:04,079 --> 02:06:06,119
asked me, do you know what theology? Had you ever

2316
02:06:06,159 --> 02:06:08,239
heard the distinction? You're here to tell me what your

2317
02:06:08,239 --> 02:06:11,680
theology is? No? No, not okay. Every time I ask

2318
02:06:11,760 --> 02:06:13,279
you said do you know what theology? Do you know

2319
02:06:13,319 --> 02:06:15,960
a theology? Answer? No, you don't know. Answer you claim

2320
02:06:16,039 --> 02:06:20,800
your spirit. You're just making it at home? No, at homes?

2321
02:06:20,840 --> 02:06:23,960
And who does? By the way, the reason he won't answer, no,

2322
02:06:24,079 --> 02:06:28,239
you open who does produce? You opened up? He's saying,

2323
02:06:28,359 --> 02:06:37,439
why won't you answer? No? You just said who? Yeah exactly,

2324
02:06:37,560 --> 02:06:40,560
I said you our term is passive spression. No, you won't.

2325
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:43,079
You won't accept these people have different that. He produced

2326
02:06:43,159 --> 02:06:48,279
terminological bases for making the claim. We don't accept subordinationism.

2327
02:06:48,399 --> 02:06:50,359
I know you don't accept it, but I'm telling you

2328
02:06:50,399 --> 02:06:54,560
how you have it orthodolosity. Say it's subordination, if it's

2329
02:06:55,119 --> 02:06:57,479
if it's the sun and the spirit together. All you're

2330
02:06:57,520 --> 02:07:00,479
doing is insisting on your upside. You have answer, You

2331
02:07:00,520 --> 02:07:01,600
just have silence.

2332
02:07:01,680 --> 02:07:05,000
Speaker 3: I said, answer is an answer your father and son.

2333
02:07:05,479 --> 02:07:09,319
No I'm not, you said the son. Who does the

2334
02:07:09,359 --> 02:07:10,239
spirit produces?

2335
02:07:10,680 --> 02:07:15,760
Speaker 2: Who? He passively spirates? Who? Who? What it's? Who does he?

2336
02:07:15,880 --> 02:07:18,239
Do you understand the difference between an active forms and

2337
02:07:18,319 --> 02:07:20,199
a passive verb. He is the cause of Do you

2338
02:07:20,279 --> 02:07:22,800
understand the difference between an active verb and a passive

2339
02:07:22,840 --> 02:07:23,199
before me?

2340
02:07:23,199 --> 02:07:26,399
Speaker 3: Who's he called active verb? Has is transit is the

2341
02:07:26,399 --> 02:07:28,520
spirit of the cause. Do you not understand called him

2342
02:07:28,520 --> 02:07:29,960
a cause? He's not transitive?

2343
02:07:30,039 --> 02:07:32,399
Speaker 2: You called him a cause? Do you understand transitivity? You're

2344
02:07:32,399 --> 02:07:34,199
not going to answer it. He won't answer. He's a

2345
02:07:34,239 --> 02:07:38,560
passive cause. I answer according to Roman Catholic, he is

2346
02:07:38,600 --> 02:07:41,600
a pastor who were on time. Let's do this.

2347
02:07:41,760 --> 02:07:44,079
Speaker 1: Here's I'm gonna I want to leave it with two questions.

2348
02:07:44,119 --> 02:07:45,079
He's asking you a question.

2349
02:07:45,159 --> 02:07:48,920
Speaker 2: Nothing that you ask asked the question clearly, and I

2350
02:07:48,920 --> 02:07:50,680
want to hear just a simple answer. We'll leave it

2351
02:07:50,680 --> 02:07:53,000
at that. What is the question? Repeat it? What is

2352
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:57,199
the one question the cause of who? Go ahead? What

2353
02:07:57,279 --> 02:08:00,560
is the cause of him? Exactly? Can you act?

2354
02:08:02,039 --> 02:08:06,119
Speaker 1: Asking questions to questions which, to be fair, said of

2355
02:08:07,119 --> 02:08:10,279
the moderator, You know that's saying that's It's the point

2356
02:08:10,359 --> 02:08:12,159
to where I feel like we've gone in a complete circle.

2357
02:08:12,319 --> 02:08:15,640
I'm going to take completely unbiased here and say we

2358
02:08:15,680 --> 02:08:18,359
can't come to a conclusion when we're asking questions to questions.

2359
02:08:18,359 --> 02:08:21,039
Speaker 2: So we will just leave it there. We will move here.

2360
02:08:21,239 --> 02:08:22,840
I think, can I make a response? Yeah, you can.

2361
02:08:22,880 --> 02:08:24,520
You can make a response or ask one question, but

2362
02:08:24,560 --> 02:08:26,640
it's got to be as simple to the point, not

2363
02:08:26,680 --> 02:08:29,960
a paragraph. Just what's the statement. So in Roman Catholic

2364
02:08:30,039 --> 02:08:33,760
theology we say active spiration by the father and the son,

2365
02:08:34,199 --> 02:08:38,520
passive spiration by the spirit. Passive means that one is

2366
02:08:38,560 --> 02:08:41,840
not acting but is acted upon. It is a passive potency.

2367
02:08:42,000 --> 02:08:43,520
I asked you if he's a cause, and you said

2368
02:08:43,520 --> 02:08:47,359
he was. Yes, there's one soul. Cause are you talking

2369
02:08:47,359 --> 02:08:49,479
to K I thought you were talking one soul causes

2370
02:08:49,520 --> 02:08:53,560
the I just add you said I don't know. I

2371
02:08:53,600 --> 02:08:53,880
didn't know.

2372
02:08:54,399 --> 02:08:56,760
Speaker 3: I sincerely didn't know what you I the term that

2373
02:08:56,800 --> 02:08:57,720
the spirits are cause the.

2374
02:08:57,840 --> 02:09:02,000
Speaker 2: Spirit is a passive spirator of who? And I said,

2375
02:09:02,199 --> 02:09:05,039
this doesn't make sense in the context of active and passive.

2376
02:09:05,159 --> 02:09:08,199
So he doesn't. He's not a cause. You're making it

2377
02:09:08,239 --> 02:09:10,680
like there's a flaw. There's not. This is just how

2378
02:09:10,760 --> 02:09:13,039
we call you're not. This is how we explain. So

2379
02:09:13,119 --> 02:09:15,880
he won't the monarchy, you don't explain it. And John

2380
02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:19,359
chapter sixteen, you're dodging the basic question. I'm not dodging

2381
02:09:19,479 --> 02:09:22,800
twenty things. I'm not dodging Jay. All I'm seeking to

2382
02:09:22,840 --> 02:09:27,840
do is exitgy John sixteen. The fact that that Jesus said,

2383
02:09:28,079 --> 02:09:31,159
Jesus says everything the Father has, I have as well.

2384
02:09:31,680 --> 02:09:34,239
And you said, well, the cause that subordination. That the

2385
02:09:34,279 --> 02:09:37,479
cause you're trying to drive the position into subordinationism. And

2386
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:40,199
I'm saying, no, there's such a thing as passive spies.

2387
02:09:40,279 --> 02:09:42,680
I sure stand you're saying that. But what you're showing

2388
02:09:42,840 --> 02:09:45,600
a cause you didn't show anything. You just say, are you?

2389
02:09:45,640 --> 02:09:48,920
Are you? Are you? Are you satisfied with the answer?

2390
02:09:48,920 --> 02:09:51,960
Do you feel like he answered no, he's not about dodging.

2391
02:09:52,000 --> 02:09:54,359
But okay, And do you believe that you're answering or

2392
02:09:54,399 --> 02:09:56,039
do you think do you agree with me you're dodging.

2393
02:09:56,079 --> 02:09:59,359
I'm answering on behalf of Roman Catholic theology that we have.

2394
02:09:59,399 --> 02:10:02,199
Speaker 1: What are you dodg because you're also you're dodging my question?

2395
02:10:02,319 --> 02:10:03,680
Do you think you dodged him? Or do you think

2396
02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:04,760
you give an absolute answer?

2397
02:10:04,880 --> 02:10:08,239
Speaker 2: I gave an absolute answer. What is your absolute answer?

2398
02:10:08,239 --> 02:10:09,800
I just I just want to know. For the absolute

2399
02:10:09,840 --> 02:10:13,039
answer is when we say active spiration we mean that

2400
02:10:13,119 --> 02:10:18,720
the Father causes the Holy Spirit through the hypostasies of

2401
02:10:18,359 --> 02:10:22,359
the hypostasis of the sun. These are active because the

2402
02:10:22,439 --> 02:10:32,119
sun aids Uh. The view of John Damascene is literally source, Father, River, Sun, lake, Spirit.

2403
02:10:32,199 --> 02:10:34,000
So he's saying, well, well, what does the spirit do?

2404
02:10:34,159 --> 02:10:37,119
I'm saying, well, in Roman Catholic theology, which is perfectly

2405
02:10:37,399 --> 02:10:41,239
uh philly Okuwa is perfectly square with this analogy, With

2406
02:10:41,359 --> 02:10:44,279
this analogy that we would say that that is what's

2407
02:10:44,319 --> 02:10:47,239
called a passive spiration. He receives it.

2408
02:10:47,840 --> 02:10:52,359
Speaker 3: And it's a difficult question, as he asked many times,

2409
02:10:52,359 --> 02:10:55,039
as he was asked many times, was when you said

2410
02:10:55,039 --> 02:10:58,039
that the spirit is a cause, which you affirmed multiple times.

2411
02:10:58,439 --> 02:11:00,720
Speaker 2: I asked you cause of who are what? And you

2412
02:11:00,760 --> 02:11:03,319
had no answer. No, I didn't have no answer. I

2413
02:11:03,399 --> 02:11:06,319
was saying that the spirit is caused. And this is

2414
02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:09,399
this is why you say it's subordinate. You said he's

2415
02:11:09,399 --> 02:11:12,920
a call I said, he's a passive spirator of who

2416
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:15,399
or what? So he's saying he's he's a spy ray

2417
02:11:15,439 --> 02:11:17,720
to or of who are what does the passive voice

2418
02:11:17,760 --> 02:11:20,279
as a verb have Does it mean cause or does

2419
02:11:20,319 --> 02:11:22,760
it assert a cause has been done? He's a cause

2420
02:11:22,840 --> 02:11:25,680
grammatical you said he's a cause. I feel like I

2421
02:11:25,680 --> 02:11:27,880
feel like we're arguing semantics. I feel like this is

2422
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:31,039
semantics because you're saying one thing, he's saying another, and

2423
02:11:31,079 --> 02:11:33,039
I feel like we're getting We're not getting nowhere. I'm

2424
02:11:33,079 --> 02:11:36,319
just giving the answer. According to our theology, we the

2425
02:11:36,319 --> 02:11:39,119
Holy Spirit is a passive spirator. That's the whore that

2426
02:11:39,159 --> 02:11:43,319
can be who are what? The Holy Spirit receives spiration

2427
02:11:43,640 --> 02:11:47,840
from God through the sun, and he receives it. Okay,

2428
02:11:47,880 --> 02:11:53,479
Is that clear generation produces the sun? Right? Yes, generation produces.

2429
02:11:53,159 --> 02:11:55,760
Speaker 1: So let me go to this because because of the

2430
02:11:55,800 --> 02:11:57,239
statements here, we're not going to go very long on

2431
02:11:57,279 --> 02:11:59,159
the closing. I want to give it it basically like

2432
02:11:59,199 --> 02:12:01,680
a well basic called a second rebuttal bit of closing

2433
02:12:01,960 --> 02:12:05,840
because there's a miscommunication or an intentional dodging. But I

2434
02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:08,560
am going to stay completely unbiased in the moderation. Say,

2435
02:12:08,840 --> 02:12:10,720
I will leave the chat up. I want to know

2436
02:12:10,760 --> 02:12:13,720
from you guys in the chat. We'll switch it up

2437
02:12:13,720 --> 02:12:15,880
the ones in the chat. If you think that uh,

2438
02:12:16,520 --> 02:12:20,279
Timothy answered the question and that he answered it according

2439
02:12:20,279 --> 02:12:21,640
to what he said, two's in the chat. If you

2440
02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:24,119
think he's lying slash dodging. I guess you could use

2441
02:12:24,119 --> 02:12:26,319
different words upending what you think and agree with Jay

2442
02:12:26,479 --> 02:12:28,439
and someone's like, I've seen the chat you accusing me

2443
02:12:28,479 --> 02:12:30,680
of agree with both of them. I am neither orthodox

2444
02:12:30,880 --> 02:12:33,199
nor Catholics. You guys can all hate me because I'm

2445
02:12:33,239 --> 02:12:35,199
neither and I don't have a.

2446
02:12:34,920 --> 02:12:41,640
Speaker 2: I just articulated what the view is. Articulated you. You've

2447
02:12:41,640 --> 02:12:43,840
given that answer four times in acting. All right, so

2448
02:12:43,880 --> 02:12:44,479
let me let me go to this.

2449
02:12:44,560 --> 02:12:47,920
Speaker 3: I'm gonna don't you know what aspiration means because you

2450
02:12:48,319 --> 02:12:52,479
said he cause he's a cause I said you said that.

2451
02:12:52,720 --> 02:12:55,279
Speaker 2: If I said that when you're sputtering out sentence fragments

2452
02:12:55,319 --> 02:12:57,720
in the cross X, I never said that. I never

2453
02:12:57,760 --> 02:12:59,159
intended to say the spirits.

2454
02:12:58,960 --> 02:13:00,800
Speaker 3: Cause that's why you got silent and had to think

2455
02:13:00,800 --> 02:13:02,079
about how to talk your way out of it.

2456
02:13:02,199 --> 02:13:05,359
Speaker 2: I got silent because I'm trying to talk over because no,

2457
02:13:05,439 --> 02:13:06,159
that's not true.

2458
02:13:06,319 --> 02:13:08,640
Speaker 3: The Holy Spirit doesn't have the power of the son, right,

2459
02:13:11,600 --> 02:13:13,399
so he's subordinated, so he's lacking a power.

2460
02:13:13,560 --> 02:13:17,319
Speaker 2: No, no, we say he's not subordinated because he is

2461
02:13:17,399 --> 02:13:20,760
a passive. But he doesn't produce a person. Right on

2462
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:23,520
your view, you are the Son to the Father.

2463
02:13:24,079 --> 02:13:27,600
Speaker 3: There is subordination in the trinity, yeah, role subordination, not

2464
02:13:27,640 --> 02:13:28,720
ontological subordination.

2465
02:13:28,760 --> 02:13:33,399
Speaker 2: That's called monarchia. Yeah yeah, except no, that's not true.

2466
02:13:33,439 --> 02:13:36,640
You're picking who's subordinated, either the Holy Smell or the

2467
02:13:36,720 --> 02:13:38,800
Son together. No, no, that's a logical.

2468
02:13:39,239 --> 02:13:42,119
Speaker 3: Does Jesus say that he worships the Father and he

2469
02:13:42,199 --> 02:13:43,079
does the Father's will?

2470
02:13:44,359 --> 02:13:49,600
Speaker 2: Does the role of subordination role? No, No, you don't know. Basically,

2471
02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:52,840
he says that the Father has is mine as well.

2472
02:13:52,880 --> 02:13:54,800
Does he says, let me come here, let.

2473
02:13:54,720 --> 02:13:57,000
Speaker 1: Me come here and ask you a question, Because from

2474
02:13:57,000 --> 02:14:00,800
somebody who's not as well versed in the news of

2475
02:14:01,359 --> 02:14:05,119
this debate between Catholics and Orthodox it would just, in

2476
02:14:05,199 --> 02:14:09,720
a structural sense, seem like perhaps you're avoiding answering something

2477
02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:12,439
directly to avoid being seen as crazy or to like

2478
02:14:12,800 --> 02:14:14,279
not be seen as in Saint colag If somebody you

2479
02:14:14,319 --> 02:14:16,680
know asked someone like, oh, are you a good question,

2480
02:14:16,760 --> 02:14:18,479
like are you a white supremacist or something, and you know,

2481
02:14:18,560 --> 02:14:20,800
it's sort of like a question. If you answer it,

2482
02:14:21,319 --> 02:14:22,800
you're kind of screwed either way. If you say no,

2483
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:24,640
people are gonna get mad because you don't like your race.

2484
02:14:24,680 --> 02:14:25,920
If you say yes, they're going to call you an

2485
02:14:25,920 --> 02:14:27,800
extremists and try to disqualify you.

2486
02:14:27,840 --> 02:14:29,319
Speaker 2: So it comes across like there's a little bit of

2487
02:14:29,319 --> 02:14:34,199
that moving around. Understand, you're saying I'm lying because he's

2488
02:14:35,079 --> 02:14:37,920
questions I'm saying. I'm saying I'm saying to me, I'm

2489
02:14:37,960 --> 02:14:41,000
saying I'm getting the dancing. I'm not saying it's lying.

2490
02:14:41,079 --> 02:14:43,039
I'm singing that. Like, maybe there's a more direct way

2491
02:14:43,079 --> 02:14:45,960
you want to answer it that you're not saying. He's saying.

2492
02:14:46,039 --> 02:14:48,159
I don't know what he's saying you're lying about because

2493
02:14:48,319 --> 02:14:52,520
I don't. I don't understand because I don't know if

2494
02:14:52,560 --> 02:14:58,159
you talking about I haven't said it across examination in

2495
02:14:58,199 --> 02:15:02,000
a cross examination, though, you're harassing the witness. When I said,

2496
02:15:02,399 --> 02:15:06,640
here's our two active spirators, one passive spira, you're like, well,

2497
02:15:06,680 --> 02:15:08,640
what is that? I was like, that's our theology. And

2498
02:15:08,640 --> 02:15:10,760
then you're like, that's a dodge. That's not a dodge.

2499
02:15:10,760 --> 02:15:14,600
Two active spirators. We have the father the son.

2500
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:19,199
Speaker 3: I thought the father generated, not spirated the spirit the

2501
02:15:19,239 --> 02:15:24,960
fun Wait, the father general generate right then he spirates, right?

2502
02:15:25,680 --> 02:15:27,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I was what I was trying to get

2503
02:15:27,319 --> 02:15:31,000
out is the passivity of the spirit. And then you said,

2504
02:15:31,039 --> 02:15:33,319
you said that's a cause. I said, that's not a cause.

2505
02:15:33,920 --> 02:15:36,479
So how many causes are there? I think there's one

2506
02:15:36,800 --> 02:15:39,239
and that's who the father. Okay, but he gives cause

2507
02:15:39,239 --> 02:15:42,880
alary to the son, right, he gives the ability through

2508
02:15:42,920 --> 02:15:43,359
the son.

2509
02:15:43,560 --> 02:15:46,199
Speaker 3: So many causes? Is that it's one, but he gives

2510
02:15:46,199 --> 02:15:48,560
it to the son. Yes, this is this is hypostatic.

2511
02:15:48,720 --> 02:15:49,880
This is hypostatic.

2512
02:15:50,079 --> 02:15:52,399
Speaker 2: What does the son contribute that the father doesn't to

2513
02:15:52,439 --> 02:15:54,159
the to the spiration? Well, I mean, are we just

2514
02:15:54,199 --> 02:15:57,760
going on an extra cross examination? Oh so he doesn't

2515
02:15:57,760 --> 02:15:58,199
want to answer that.

2516
02:15:58,319 --> 02:16:00,560
Speaker 1: I know, so I don't want And we could take

2517
02:16:00,560 --> 02:16:03,239
this conclusions as a little extension to see where if

2518
02:16:03,239 --> 02:16:05,920
you guys, could further explain your position only because of

2519
02:16:06,000 --> 02:16:07,680
someone who's trying to position.

2520
02:16:07,920 --> 02:16:11,079
Speaker 2: Let's just go ahead with it as trying to understand

2521
02:16:11,079 --> 02:16:13,760
the position. I'm thinking about the audience. And if you were,

2522
02:16:13,840 --> 02:16:15,920
let's say, a prop sitting here and you're not familiar

2523
02:16:16,199 --> 02:16:19,479
with the you know, consequential dogma from from Catholics or

2524
02:16:19,520 --> 02:16:23,640
from Orthodox I'm sitting here like trying to actually understand

2525
02:16:23,800 --> 02:16:26,800
what you're saying. And I am not accusing you of lying.

2526
02:16:26,800 --> 02:16:28,119
I'm actual accusing you of doing nothing.

2527
02:16:28,399 --> 02:16:31,399
Speaker 1: But I'm saying to me, I'm like, okay, I know,

2528
02:16:31,479 --> 02:16:33,840
I wouldn't know if you were jumping around from what

2529
02:16:33,879 --> 02:16:34,319
he's saying, or.

2530
02:16:34,319 --> 02:16:36,600
Speaker 2: You can understand the Orthodox view of the Trinity from

2531
02:16:36,600 --> 02:16:41,159
what he said. That's a good question. So let's let's

2532
02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:43,559
do a question, because if you're being object no, no,

2533
02:16:44,959 --> 02:16:46,760
you're lying something, I wouldn't know if you're lying, right,

2534
02:16:46,799 --> 02:16:49,159
I wouldn't know if you're dodging him, or if you're lying,

2535
02:16:49,159 --> 02:16:49,639
I wouldn't know.

2536
02:16:49,760 --> 02:16:54,120
Speaker 3: I'm not saying he's lying about the Catholic position, that

2537
02:16:54,159 --> 02:16:56,520
he's representing the Catholic position. I'm saying that in the

2538
02:16:56,639 --> 02:17:00,000
course of that discourse, he's lying about what he previously

2539
02:17:00,079 --> 02:17:01,799
he said saying no, I never said that when he

2540
02:17:01,799 --> 02:17:03,680
did say the cause part, yes.

2541
02:17:03,639 --> 02:17:05,520
Speaker 2: Okay, because that's how I thought. Okay, Then I got confused.

2542
02:17:05,520 --> 02:17:06,520
I thought he was saying that you were not right.

2543
02:17:06,680 --> 02:17:09,559
I said it was unintentional. And if you said, is

2544
02:17:09,600 --> 02:17:11,239
it a cause, and I've said yeah, yeah, yeah, So

2545
02:17:11,280 --> 02:17:14,120
half the time I'm brushing you off. That's not the

2546
02:17:14,440 --> 02:17:17,319
That's what this was all about. I was saying a

2547
02:17:17,440 --> 02:17:20,159
Roman Catholic point of view. Well, it's not a misunderstanding

2548
02:17:20,319 --> 02:17:22,440
the Roman Catholic point of view. I said, all along,

2549
02:17:22,760 --> 02:17:26,479
we have these two. I mean, it's an upside down triangle.

2550
02:17:27,159 --> 02:17:33,040
And all I was saying is it's subordination. Uh, he's

2551
02:17:33,079 --> 02:17:37,600
accusing us of subordination just because I cited John chapter

2552
02:17:37,680 --> 02:17:41,360
sixteen where Jesus says, all the Father has I have

2553
02:17:41,440 --> 02:17:45,360
as well, And he's saying, well, then he cannot the Essence,

2554
02:17:45,399 --> 02:17:47,639
the Divine Essence cannot come to the Holy Spirit through

2555
02:17:47,680 --> 02:17:48,000
the sun.

2556
02:17:48,120 --> 02:17:50,200
Speaker 3: That's not what I said. You don't even understand the argument,

2557
02:17:50,399 --> 02:17:52,280
making a very clear argument. You're in it seems to

2558
02:17:52,280 --> 02:17:56,399
be not understanding that because it's basic and it's very simple.

2559
02:17:56,840 --> 02:17:59,840
Speaker 2: Read it's very simple. Did you read the mistagogees, it's

2560
02:17:59,920 --> 02:18:02,840
very're gonna cut that. We're gonna cut that there. And

2561
02:18:02,840 --> 02:18:04,600
by the way, to the people saying I'm trying to understand,

2562
02:18:04,639 --> 02:18:06,079
because if you don't know, I'm just saying in a

2563
02:18:06,159 --> 02:18:08,239
very basic sense, I'm like you, guys.

2564
02:18:08,280 --> 02:18:09,760
Speaker 1: Part of the reason why we're hosting this debate, and

2565
02:18:09,799 --> 02:18:12,719
I think it's very important, is personally, I'm very interested

2566
02:18:12,760 --> 02:18:15,920
in understanding what church I should go to. Whether Catholic

2567
02:18:16,000 --> 02:18:17,559
is a church to join and to become a part of,

2568
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:18,719
whether Orthodox.

2569
02:18:18,440 --> 02:18:19,879
Speaker 2: And a lot of you guys are searching this too.

2570
02:18:20,239 --> 02:18:21,479
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of you guys who are

2571
02:18:21,479 --> 02:18:24,360
Catholic or Orthodox may be wanting to uh, you know,

2572
02:18:24,440 --> 02:18:26,280
revert or convert whatever you want to call it in

2573
02:18:26,319 --> 02:18:29,680
your language into the other uh uh you know order.

2574
02:18:30,040 --> 02:18:32,280
But for myself, you know, because just because I started

2575
02:18:32,319 --> 02:18:34,440
attending a Catholic church, I've been to an Orthodox church

2576
02:18:34,479 --> 02:18:37,079
before too. For a while, I've gone to a Catholic church,

2577
02:18:37,319 --> 02:18:39,959
and sometimes they aren't always very open about exactly what

2578
02:18:39,959 --> 02:18:40,360
they believe.

2579
02:18:40,360 --> 02:18:41,479
Speaker 2: There's a lot of disagreements.

2580
02:18:41,600 --> 02:18:43,120
Speaker 1: So kind of the point of this is, is someone like

2581
02:18:43,159 --> 02:18:45,040
myself to sit here and try to make sure if

2582
02:18:45,040 --> 02:18:47,280
he's saying he's lying. I'm just asking what he's saying

2583
02:18:47,280 --> 02:18:48,840
he' lying about. Is he saying about what he said

2584
02:18:48,840 --> 02:18:51,440
previously or about the Catholic's position, because I'm interested to

2585
02:18:51,440 --> 02:18:53,079
find out to make sure I'm getting the correct position,

2586
02:18:53,079 --> 02:18:54,799
and if if that's a correct position, I appreciate it

2587
02:18:54,840 --> 02:18:57,200
and your position. However, I do think in a quick

2588
02:18:57,479 --> 02:19:00,200
in a quick summary, like if you could do in

2589
02:19:00,200 --> 02:19:04,360
like one paragraph, just what is the official Orthodox position

2590
02:19:05,120 --> 02:19:06,719
on this on this topic, because.

2591
02:19:06,520 --> 02:19:07,799
Speaker 2: It was a lot of this back and forth and

2592
02:19:07,840 --> 02:19:10,680
then you you go, is this the closing statements correct? Correct?

2593
02:19:10,680 --> 02:19:13,520
For the section I stated succinctly what the Catholic position is.

2594
02:19:13,639 --> 02:19:15,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm just saying, but inside with an end

2595
02:19:15,959 --> 02:19:17,959
summary and make sure you restate it just for people

2596
02:19:17,959 --> 02:19:20,239
who were new to the stream or who got lost

2597
02:19:20,239 --> 02:19:22,159
in the argument and the tit for tat what what

2598
02:19:22,319 --> 02:19:23,920
was it? And if you could finish, and then we'll

2599
02:19:23,959 --> 02:19:25,239
have you, we'll have you closed as well.

2600
02:19:25,319 --> 02:19:25,479
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2601
02:19:25,559 --> 02:19:28,159
Speaker 3: So essentially what I'm taking issue with is the idea

2602
02:19:28,319 --> 02:19:33,200
that he said if the son does not spi rate,

2603
02:19:33,680 --> 02:19:37,639
he's subordinated because he's not having all that the father has.

2604
02:19:39,239 --> 02:19:44,479
Speaker 2: So I ask, does the spirit spi rate? And or

2605
02:19:44,520 --> 02:19:45,040
excuse me?

2606
02:19:45,239 --> 02:19:49,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then he says he's a passive he passively

2607
02:19:49,079 --> 02:19:49,719
spir rates.

2608
02:19:49,920 --> 02:19:51,319
Speaker 2: I say, who does the spir rate?

2609
02:19:52,520 --> 02:19:56,479
Speaker 3: He says, he aspirated passively because he receives spiration.

2610
02:19:56,719 --> 02:19:57,920
Speaker 2: That's what passive means.

2611
02:19:57,719 --> 02:20:01,559
Speaker 3: Because he thinks that being spy rated is spiration, which

2612
02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:05,879
is a basic blunder. No, moving on, I'm doing my talk,

2613
02:20:06,120 --> 02:20:13,200
so you hush please, moving on, he says, I mean,

2614
02:20:13,239 --> 02:20:15,479
I'm sorry that you just dizz bad in this section.

2615
02:20:15,559 --> 02:20:18,040
Speaker 2: Dude. It would have helped if you'd read the Mystagajy,

2616
02:20:18,159 --> 02:20:22,200
but you didn't. Passive spiration, you didn't. You said you did.

2617
02:20:23,159 --> 02:20:26,120
Stop stop, let's keep it. You go here and then

2618
02:20:26,120 --> 02:20:27,879
we'll switch. You can make fun of me all you want,

2619
02:20:27,879 --> 02:20:28,760
and you're let's.

2620
02:20:28,639 --> 02:20:30,360
Speaker 1: Keep let's keep the personal tax out and let's go

2621
02:20:30,360 --> 02:20:32,319
and just explain the facts, and then we'll go over

2622
02:20:32,319 --> 02:20:32,600
to Tim.

2623
02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:35,600
Speaker 2: He'll explain the facts as well. So I understand. You know,

2624
02:20:35,719 --> 02:20:37,159
he's got a lot going on, he's busy.

2625
02:20:37,200 --> 02:20:39,920
Speaker 3: I don't fault him for not reading the stuff that

2626
02:20:39,959 --> 02:20:42,559
I send, but it's been multiple years where I've linked

2627
02:20:42,559 --> 02:20:44,920
and sent him these texts which he hasn't read. If

2628
02:20:44,920 --> 02:20:46,840
you had read the Mystagogy, he would know that. One

2629
02:20:46,840 --> 02:20:50,399
of the first arguments in the mystagaji Uh, and it's

2630
02:20:50,760 --> 02:20:52,959
stated it multiple times over. It's also repeated in the

2631
02:20:53,000 --> 02:20:56,799
appredicted Treatise of Sant Gregory Palmis by the Way centuries later.

2632
02:20:57,000 --> 02:21:00,479
The same argument that to say that there's sport nation

2633
02:21:00,840 --> 02:21:04,159
because the son doesn't have the power of causality becomes

2634
02:21:04,159 --> 02:21:08,360
a problem because the Holy Spirit now lacks that causality.

2635
02:21:08,760 --> 02:21:11,879
To talk about passive spiration and to equate that with

2636
02:21:13,000 --> 02:21:16,760
to to equate being spirrated with spiration is just so silly.

2637
02:21:16,799 --> 02:21:18,399
I don't even know how to respond to it. It's

2638
02:21:18,440 --> 02:21:19,840
it's fundamentally stupid.

2639
02:21:19,879 --> 02:21:24,479
Speaker 2: Because spiration is what picks out the Holy Spirit. Generation

2640
02:21:24,680 --> 02:21:25,680
is what picks out the Son.

2641
02:21:25,719 --> 02:21:29,159
Speaker 3: They're called hypostetic properties, and for Orthodox we relate them

2642
02:21:29,159 --> 02:21:32,600
to the Father in relations of origin. That's the Orthodox teaching.

2643
02:21:32,639 --> 02:21:35,680
The Cabadocians, it's restated. You want to read Loski's paper

2644
02:21:35,719 --> 02:21:38,280
called the Procession of the Holy Spirit Orthodox Doctrine. You can

2645
02:21:38,280 --> 02:21:40,680
also read a Roman Catholic that talks about this and

2646
02:21:40,719 --> 02:21:43,440
admits all my points by Eaves Kongar. He wrote an

2647
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:46,840
essay about Augustine relations of opposition and the Cappadocians, which

2648
02:21:46,920 --> 02:21:50,639
also makes all of my arguments. So again, our position

2649
02:21:50,760 --> 02:21:53,440
is that the Father is the one true God. He

2650
02:21:53,600 --> 02:21:56,520
is the sole archae, the monarchia. It is the teaching

2651
02:21:56,520 --> 02:21:59,920
of Constantinople One. The Cappadocians don't teach the Philly oquaper,

2652
02:22:00,079 --> 02:22:03,280
so I said, because causality is the hyposthetic.

2653
02:22:02,760 --> 02:22:04,360
Speaker 2: Property that is not communicable.

2654
02:22:05,079 --> 02:22:08,760
Speaker 3: And again the argument that the son becomes the cause,

2655
02:22:09,600 --> 02:22:12,799
imbalances the trinity and creates a diad because no one

2656
02:22:13,120 --> 02:22:16,000
teaches that the spirit is a cause, and so he

2657
02:22:16,120 --> 02:22:20,159
lacks causality in both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox model.

2658
02:22:20,399 --> 02:22:23,799
But we're consistent because we don't give the father's unique

2659
02:22:24,000 --> 02:22:28,040
hypostatic marker and property of being cause to the son.

2660
02:22:28,879 --> 02:22:30,719
Speaker 1: And just to ask you simply, do you feel like

2661
02:22:30,719 --> 02:22:35,200
he he dictated correctly or at least to what you

2662
02:22:35,319 --> 02:22:37,600
know to be the actual position of the Orthodox Church

2663
02:22:37,639 --> 02:22:39,719
on this issue. Yeah, okay, you do. So I just

2664
02:22:39,719 --> 02:22:41,639
want to make sure that that's so we're clear because

2665
02:22:41,639 --> 02:22:43,040
the chat, you know, was a little bit all over

2666
02:22:43,040 --> 02:22:44,399
the place, not not knowing what was going on.

2667
02:22:44,520 --> 02:22:44,840
Speaker 2: All right.

2668
02:22:44,879 --> 02:22:48,159
Speaker 1: So then going over to Timothy, also to Jay, please

2669
02:22:48,159 --> 02:22:50,280
don't interrupt. We're gonna just keep this a straight, a

2670
02:22:50,280 --> 02:22:53,399
straight uh diatribe here. So if you want to go

2671
02:22:53,440 --> 02:22:55,959
ahead and give your position, one.

2672
02:22:55,360 --> 02:22:59,040
Speaker 2: Off Jay's tricks is he'll laugh at the Roman Catholic position,

2673
02:22:59,120 --> 02:23:01,559
which which he knows what it is, and then he'll

2674
02:23:01,600 --> 02:23:06,840
ask for a term to be identified, like passive spiration,

2675
02:23:07,239 --> 02:23:10,559
as if it's being made up ex nilo or something,

2676
02:23:10,600 --> 02:23:14,680
and he'll say, well, how does that relate to Orthodox theology?

2677
02:23:14,680 --> 02:23:17,120
And I was saying, well, it doesn't. That's the tension

2678
02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:21,280
that exists between the Orthodox and the Catholic position. And

2679
02:23:21,280 --> 02:23:25,520
he laughs, and then all of the Bots in Chat say, oh, okay,

2680
02:23:25,959 --> 02:23:29,639
a good score. I would go back to the heart

2681
02:23:29,799 --> 02:23:35,319
of Trinitarian theology for Roman Catholics, which really has to

2682
02:23:35,360 --> 02:23:42,360
do with actus purus, the fact that the consubstantial Father Son,

2683
02:23:42,440 --> 02:23:47,520
Holy Spirit relate to one another oppositionally. And this is

2684
02:23:47,600 --> 02:23:51,200
within the substance. He was making fun of the term usiological.

2685
02:23:51,280 --> 02:23:54,040
That just means they all relate within one substance. There's

2686
02:23:54,239 --> 02:23:59,360
nothing uncreated outside the substance of God, the Divine Essence,

2687
02:23:59,360 --> 02:24:02,440
Father Son, hohold Spirit. They relate to each other with

2688
02:24:03,280 --> 02:24:09,000
a distinction, a distinction of operation. Jay had this infamous

2689
02:24:09,000 --> 02:24:12,920
debate with Christian Wagner where Christian Wagner was getting him

2690
02:24:12,920 --> 02:24:16,399
to admit, essentially that he didn't understand what a relation

2691
02:24:16,479 --> 02:24:20,840
of opposition was. I brought this up today and I

2692
02:24:20,959 --> 02:24:23,520
was saying, Okay, have you ever played paper scissors rock?

2693
02:24:23,600 --> 02:24:26,559
The reason I did that is because paper Scissors Rock

2694
02:24:26,719 --> 02:24:31,520
proves that conceptually, at least at the very least conceptually

2695
02:24:32,159 --> 02:24:35,520
if you're trying to win paper scissors rock Triadic relations

2696
02:24:35,559 --> 02:24:40,879
of opposition do exist. Just because there are three couplets

2697
02:24:41,360 --> 02:24:47,639
doesn't mean that there is not individual tension or opposition

2698
02:24:47,799 --> 02:24:52,440
or a dichotomy between ab BC and c A. This

2699
02:24:52,600 --> 02:24:56,280
is absolutely nonsensical. It was an embarrassment that Jay said this,

2700
02:24:56,760 --> 02:24:59,319
and I was saying, Okay, that's fine. When I brought

2701
02:24:59,319 --> 02:25:01,200
this up with him earlier, he said, we'll prove that

2702
02:25:01,200 --> 02:25:03,760
that exists for the Trinity. I'm just proving that it's

2703
02:25:03,799 --> 02:25:08,360
conceptually possible. So it's an embarrassment to say that, to

2704
02:25:08,440 --> 02:25:12,399
deny that the relations of opposition which characterized the Catholic

2705
02:25:12,520 --> 02:25:15,479
view of the Trinity, which work very very well, because

2706
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:21,639
then we don't end up having deposit in uncreated energy

2707
02:25:21,760 --> 02:25:26,000
outside of God that is not created, not a creature,

2708
02:25:26,440 --> 02:25:30,479
but is really distinct from God, which is a nonsense term.

2709
02:25:30,639 --> 02:25:33,159
It means to gods are more or infinite gods. As

2710
02:25:33,239 --> 02:25:38,440
Jay said earlier, infinite divine energies. He said, infinite divine energies.

2711
02:25:38,479 --> 02:25:41,319
You're going to say, I'm that's not a lie. That's

2712
02:25:41,559 --> 02:25:46,959
what I said. That's what I'm saying. That's an absurdity.

2713
02:25:47,399 --> 02:25:50,760
We avoid this problem by saying we allow distinctions within

2714
02:25:50,879 --> 02:25:55,840
the substance of God, we don't allow distinctions within God

2715
02:25:57,280 --> 02:26:02,000
that would be concerning or about another other essence, an

2716
02:26:02,079 --> 02:26:06,200
essence and energy's distinction. And this all boils down to

2717
02:26:06,399 --> 02:26:09,719
relations of opposition, which jay I still am not clear

2718
02:26:09,760 --> 02:26:12,879
on his position whether or not whether or not relations

2719
02:26:12,920 --> 02:26:17,479
of opposition can exist within a threesome within a triad?

2720
02:26:19,399 --> 02:26:21,559
Can they that you think the trendy is a threesome?

2721
02:26:22,559 --> 02:26:27,120
It's it's three? Do they? Do they exist? What exists?

2722
02:26:27,360 --> 02:26:30,959
Can a B and C oppose one another? Within the

2723
02:26:31,040 --> 02:26:33,360
triad of holy.

2724
02:26:33,120 --> 02:26:36,840
Speaker 3: Spiatistic number theory diad relates to two, not a triad?

2725
02:26:37,120 --> 02:26:39,159
Speaker 2: Well, diet is always two. That's not what I'm asking.

2726
02:26:39,920 --> 02:26:43,760
There's no opposition in a triad because opposition is a diet. No,

2727
02:26:44,000 --> 02:26:48,639
there can be opposition within individual constituents of a tria. Okay,

2728
02:26:48,719 --> 02:26:51,799
so for for all time, I want this on records.

2729
02:26:52,000 --> 02:26:54,319
I mean again, how much time do I have left?

2730
02:26:54,920 --> 02:26:56,959
Technically here on the clock you have you have ten seconds?

2731
02:26:56,959 --> 02:26:59,200
When can give you extra thirty seconds if you need? All? Right?

2732
02:26:59,440 --> 02:27:02,959
So within a triad, so people know when we're talking

2733
02:27:03,040 --> 02:27:12,760
mathematically here, individual can can maintain their opposition, their contrariety.

2734
02:27:13,200 --> 02:27:15,680
This is a matter of simple fact. And Jay said,

2735
02:27:15,680 --> 02:27:17,680
as a matter of simple fact, that can't even happen.

2736
02:27:18,159 --> 02:27:20,479
When I pressed him on this, he said, oh, that's

2737
02:27:20,520 --> 02:27:24,000
only within the trinity. You lose. That's wrong. No, yep,

2738
02:27:24,079 --> 02:27:24,879
I don't understand.

2739
02:27:24,879 --> 02:27:25,040
Speaker 1: Wrong.

2740
02:27:25,040 --> 02:27:29,319
Speaker 2: I'm saying, it's very very simple, you thought, because don't

2741
02:27:29,520 --> 02:27:37,040
into three the opposition. This is central understanding correctly what

2742
02:27:38,079 --> 02:27:39,879
I said, that's what What did you say? Then?

2743
02:27:40,079 --> 02:27:45,319
Speaker 3: I said that diad in Patristic numbering example, right, it's

2744
02:27:46,200 --> 02:27:49,360
it's counting by division. Do you know what that is?

2745
02:27:49,399 --> 02:27:53,799
Of course, versus what counting by identity? You don't know

2746
02:27:53,799 --> 02:27:54,239
those things.

2747
02:27:54,319 --> 02:27:58,760
Speaker 2: But that's not what it was. My question explaining to

2748
02:27:58,840 --> 02:28:04,840
you that you don't know that Tristan within theology counts triads.

2749
02:28:05,079 --> 02:28:06,959
If you had debated the Muslims, you would know, because

2750
02:28:07,000 --> 02:28:09,000
I have to do this. You said no, and you're

2751
02:28:09,040 --> 02:28:10,680
like a Muslim because you don't know how there's two

2752
02:28:10,680 --> 02:28:12,840
different ways. You said, no, there's two different ways to count.

2753
02:28:12,879 --> 02:28:17,040
You told you told Christian counting debate because you don't

2754
02:28:17,319 --> 02:28:20,159
you nor him understand this point. If you'd read Kogar

2755
02:28:20,559 --> 02:28:24,159
on this point, he says what I'm saying. I don't

2756
02:28:24,200 --> 02:28:26,399
have to have read Coongar right, because you know these

2757
02:28:26,440 --> 02:28:32,920
economies want dichotomy is not a relation of opposition, Elijah,

2758
02:28:33,000 --> 02:28:35,760
do you understand economy is not a relation of opposition?

2759
02:28:35,959 --> 02:28:36,319
Speaker 1: Yes, it is.

2760
02:28:36,639 --> 02:28:39,399
Speaker 2: It's all right, I'm you Dichotomy is not a relation

2761
02:28:39,479 --> 02:28:40,159
of opposition.

2762
02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:45,040
Speaker 3: We're going to be paper because it talks about can

2763
02:28:45,399 --> 02:28:47,479
economy is not a relation of opposition.

2764
02:28:47,559 --> 02:28:49,959
Speaker 2: That's the most absurd thing. For a second, you have

2765
02:28:50,000 --> 02:28:51,239
you have, you have a choice. I'm gonna give us

2766
02:28:51,239 --> 02:28:51,719
a choice here.

2767
02:28:52,239 --> 02:28:54,319
Speaker 1: Either A we can continue arguing this, but then we're

2768
02:28:54,360 --> 02:28:55,959
gonna have to skip the third topic altogether.

2769
02:28:56,319 --> 02:28:58,920
Speaker 2: Do the timing of the debate. Uh, and what's what's

2770
02:28:58,959 --> 02:29:00,479
going on here? I want the paper?

2771
02:29:00,760 --> 02:29:02,760
Speaker 1: Okay, So then so then if that's then we're gonna

2772
02:29:02,760 --> 02:29:04,799
agree to disagree on what that is and we can

2773
02:29:04,840 --> 02:29:06,879
talk about things later. But I think we're gonna leave

2774
02:29:06,879 --> 02:29:08,639
it there. Okay, We're gonna take a couple minute break here.

2775
02:29:08,760 --> 02:29:10,079
Before we do that, I want to read a couple

2776
02:29:10,120 --> 02:29:12,719
more of the superchats. Remember, if you guys are leaving superchats,

2777
02:29:12,760 --> 02:29:14,959
we'll read them as we go along. We appreciate you

2778
02:29:15,000 --> 02:29:17,799
guys doing so. We have Jay Betteley or said Tim,

2779
02:29:17,799 --> 02:29:18,799
I'm sure you're a decent guy.