WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:04.879 Top lots of productions. 2 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:11.720 It was a layered operation that achieved many objectives, but 3 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:15.240 it facilitated the growth of the state as well, and 4 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:19.920 it facilitated that path of the dystopian nightmare, you know, 5 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.480 and the violation of our our inherent rights. So that 6 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:28.399 was an inherent example of the federal government's. 7 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:34.320 Abuse of power. Oh five to me, do we care 8 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:40.479 what we oh? 9 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:49.759 We can? What we conser? Holy cow, not a third 10 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:51.320 of the bublic had been belongable. 11 00:00:51.439 --> 00:01:05.200 And wee oh time we go, say way. 12 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:13.680 Down we go and way down we. 13 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:20.719 Go, Way down we go? Ah cus day, will un 14 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.159 yet down down to the dark dock? 15 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:27.760 Yeah? Benley, well nay. 16 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.280 It down down to your phone? 17 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:39.079 Ohmy, will yet down down to your co Yeah, till 18 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:41.680 you can't crawl no more. 19 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:51.280 Hey, welcome to another episode of No Way Jose. Today, 20 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:53.640 I am joined by Ken Silva. We're coming to you 21 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.879 with some unfortunate news and also we figured we'd take 22 00:01:56.879 --> 00:02:00.959 this opportunity to give you some other Oklahoma City bombing updates. 23 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:03.719 There have been some new things to kind of add 24 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:07.560 this to the Oklahoma City bombing playlist. But before we 25 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:09.599 get into it, I do want to take a moment 26 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:11.439 to let you guys know that if you want to 27 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:12.919 support the show and if you want to get a 28 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:16.479 superior shaving product, good way to do that is Nado Shaveco. 29 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:19.439 Use Jose at checkout for ten percent off. This is 30 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:23.080 much better preferable to those multiplaid nonsense razors out there. 31 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.800 It gives you a much smoother shave with with you know, 32 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.759 only one razor and one razor you're dragging across your face. 33 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.479 It's gonna your skin is gonna thank you much better 34 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.639 for it, and it's cheaper seventy five bucks for the 35 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:37.520 first year. After that you're just buying the razors. So 36 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:39.039 I mean that really even depends on how long the 37 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:41.240 razors last. You one hundred for the first year plus 38 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:43.879 the handle you see here, and then after that just 39 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.000 razors and you get ten percent extra if use jose 40 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:48.400 at check This is also the COVID mandate refusing company. 41 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:50.080 This is a company that aligns with the values of 42 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.360 people who are likely gonna watch this show, So it's. 43 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:54.120 Kind of a no brainer. 44 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:56.560 Use jose a check out, get ten percent off. With 45 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:58.879 that that that's enough of that. Let's go ahead and 46 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:01.159 get Kent in here and get into it. What's up man? 47 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:01.800 A long time? 48 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:03.520 No, see, yeah it has. 49 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:05.879 It's been at least probably six months since I've been 50 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:07.639 on this show. So yeah, good to be back. 51 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.439 Yeah, I mean I'm still covering you regularly now. I've 52 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.240 adopted a morning show, so I do your your articles 53 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.759 come up quite frequently. But it's a good to have 54 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:19.199 you back. It's a little it's kind of your profile 55 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:21.560 has grown significantly since the last time we came. I 56 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:23.840 was kind of like, holy moly. So it's good to 57 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.520 see good people getting recognition. You're kind of like on 58 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:28.120 the short list of people that I do try to 59 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:30.560 shout out in the realm of stuff that me and 60 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.000 you are interested in. So it's cool to see see 61 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.759 people moving on up. So hell, you're what the editor 62 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.080 in chief over the headline, so that's news since the 63 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:41.000 last time. You're your own editor in chief now, so 64 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:44.479 I mean that's more responsibility. So but yeah, how's that 65 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:46.120 treating you? I mean, if there's anything else you want to, 66 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:48.400 you know, mention to my audience to about yourself in 67 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:50.319 the meantime. But I know, it's been cool seeing this 68 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.000 stuff you've been doing. You've been breaking a lot of 69 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:55.159 big stories and you're receiving the due recognition for it. 70 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.120 Yeah, I appreciate that, and I do turn into your 71 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:02.240 morning show quite frequently. Yeah to hear you talk about 72 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.520 my articles, and always appreciate that. Yeah, we're making a 73 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.800 changes at Headline USA. I took over as editor about 74 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:14.199 two months ago from a good friend of mine. Ben Sellers, 75 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.680 who hired me, got nothing good but good things to 76 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.959 say about him. But we've kind of changed the editorial 77 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:24.079 stance from more like a mainstream maga pro Trump site 78 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:31.000 to hardcore paleo libertarian slash conservative or right wing if 79 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:33.720 you want to say that. But we're going hard against 80 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:36.839 you know, the Trump administration when they mess up onlike 81 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:41.120 any other sites, we're running anti war dot com articles 82 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:44.480 thanks to Scott Horden's blessing work, so you can find 83 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:48.600 Dave de Camp Kyle Ans alone. And we just hired 84 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:52.600 a new deputy editor to work with me, Jose Nino. 85 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:55.639 I think a lot of your viewers might be familiar 86 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.160 with that name. He's done some work for the Libertarian 87 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:02.839 Institute and MESIS and uh, really smart guy. Just gonna 88 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:05.199 you know, make him a hardcore journalist too. 89 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.600 Yep, he's a he's the name, I've heard around the 90 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:09.920 around for a while. He's definitely been in these circles 91 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:12.079 for a hot minute. But uh, as I said, we 92 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:13.839 have a few things I want to get through, a 93 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.199 handful of little updates, you know, new things in the 94 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.160 story that I feel like anyone who really does want 95 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:21.160 to have a grip of this story, you know, an 96 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:25.279 ongoing understanding that these are new developments that I think 97 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.639 you need to know. Uh And namely probably I said, 98 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:30.480 we'll probably just go ahead and get right into the 99 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:33.279 main one, which is what brought us here today. And 100 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:34.519 and it just kind of was like, hey, there's a 101 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:36.959 few other things I feel like we should mention. H 102 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:41.040 But I guess Carol Howe, which for those we did 103 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.079 cover this in the series a little bit, I figured 104 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:44.879 we'd take a moment to kind of cover a story 105 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:47.600 again real quick, just you know, may as well use 106 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:48.680 the opportunity to kind of. 107 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:49.439 Tell her story. 108 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:56.720 But it looks like she likely perished recently, because I 109 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.759 don't I think she it's it's a kind of happen 110 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:01.079 the air whether she actually went to witness protection. But 111 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:03.199 essentially she's one of those characters that just disappeared for 112 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.240 a while and then now the next thing we. 113 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:08.160 Hear of her, she's dead. 114 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:10.199 It's one of those characters that I think we a 115 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:12.720 lot of us, okay Illklahoma City researcher types, have kind 116 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:15.839 of hoped was going to be alongside something like a 117 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:17.680 surveillance safe to just pop out of the woods one 118 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:19.279 day and be like, I'm ready to talk or here 119 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:22.480 I am. But this is the here I am, we 120 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.399 get here I am. 121 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:23.959 I'm dead. 122 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.199 So that's a little bit bummer from my understanding the stories. 123 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:29.720 She's a little bit hero. But obviously there are different 124 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.040 sides to this story, which I'm sure we'll get into 125 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:34.120 later as well, but I'll pass it off to you 126 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.759 to just kind of give us the latest in what's 127 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:37.920 going on with Carol Howe. 128 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:40.319 Yeah, for those who don't know, you know, she was 129 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:44.040 kind of a troubled child, like a wild child in 130 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:48.720 the eighties, you know, good looking teenage girl. Eventually gets 131 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.639 in with the wrong crowd. I think she claims that 132 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:53.920 she got beat up by some black people and that's 133 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:58.160 why she got, you know, attracted to Nazism and starts 134 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:02.079 hanging out with like the neo Nazis. Dennis Mayhon makes 135 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:05.920 her way to Ellaheim City. She's from Tulsa, and while 136 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:08.439 there she gets kind of like a front row seat 137 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:12.560 to you what we think is plotting of the Oklahoma 138 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.839 City bombing. And we know for a fact that she 139 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:20.319 warned her handler and I think January ninety five that 140 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:23.839 a guy named Andrea Strassmeyer and Dennis Mayhon and a 141 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:28.600 couple other neo Nazis were casing federal buildings in Oklahoma 142 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.879 and that an attack was impending. And the reason that 143 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:35.720 we know this for sure is because after the bombing happens, 144 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.879 Carol Hall starts talking about it, and the DOJ charges 145 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:44.839 her with having explosive material. We think probably is retaliation 146 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.079 and to shut her up and to prevent her from 147 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.519 possibly testifying at Terry Nichols trial, which I think she 148 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:55.120 did anyways. But in any event, at her trial, her 149 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:59.120 handler agent was called the testified, and the handler agent 150 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:02.600 confirmed under oath that yes, Carol did tell me in 151 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:07.879 January that Nazis were casing federal buildings. So and in 152 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:12.199 that regard she's highly credible. You know, it's a really 153 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.439 sad story. After she beat the charges, she kind of 154 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:20.040 just dropped off the grid. A good journalist named John Ronson, 155 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:22.800 who people might know. I think he and Alex Jones 156 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.240 were the ones to go into the Behemim Grove in 157 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.600 the late nineties. So was Yeah, he's a long time 158 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:30.480 conspiracy guy. That's Ronsion. 159 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:32.519 That just made a few things click in my my 160 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:33.360 conspiracy mind. 161 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:36.039 But god, okay, interesting, I'll be curious on your thoughts 162 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:37.039 for sure. Yeah. 163 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:40.519 So he did so position and you think that he's 164 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:42.399 a stoopid Yeah. 165 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:45.679 So yeah, he did a podcast two years ago about 166 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:49.840 Carol how that's got some interesting information but ultimately concludes 167 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.519 that Carroll How's not credible. But you know, you talked 168 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:56.960 to somebody like Richard Booth. We highly disagree with that. 169 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.639 But to Ronson's credit, he's the one that discovered that 170 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.960 apparently Carol Howe died in January in a house fire. 171 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:08.519 And he put out a new episode that I just 172 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.000 listened to today that's got a lot of good info in it, 173 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:17.000 some negative, but some really interesting that actually can corroborates 174 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:18.519 How's credibility. 175 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.519 Was this so he did draw you said, he dropped 176 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:24.000 some new new content and this was what after or 177 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.080 before like after the revelation. 178 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.440 Yeah, so he did an episode or a whole series 179 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.840 in twenty twenty three, right, and then this month I 180 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.440 think just today, or at least I listened to it today. 181 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.480 It was like he like did an epilogue OKA type 182 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.399 type episode where he talks about how she died, like 183 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.120 the months leading up to the death some people who 184 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:49.559 knew her in Tennessee, like in recent years. Like, there's 185 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:51.000 some pretty interesting stuff there. 186 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:53.360 Okay, interesting, I don't have to go check that out. 187 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:55.759 It wasn't there where I heard epilogue being referred to, 188 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:59.000 but I thought that was a literally probably the epilogue 189 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:03.039 for his previously written or previous story, uh the Debutante, 190 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:05.039 which I believe you're referring to, which is the Carroll 191 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.200 Howse story, which I find to be quite ludicrous. I'm 192 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:10.200 pretty sure I was very close to almost doing a 193 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.159 whole episode with Richard just to be like pointing out 194 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:13.799 all the ludicrous things in it. 195 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:15.000 Not gonna get to do it now. 196 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:17.679 I don't remember any specific things, but it basically was 197 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:21.519 the absurd position of coming away from this and thinking 198 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:23.440 I should take Andy's word. 199 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:26.159 For it and not the in not Carroll Howe's, but. 200 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.200 Just just saying uh uh but anyways, yes, so she 201 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:32.600 I guess so she died. 202 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.519 You said it was a house fire? 203 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:35.080 Is what? Is? 204 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.799 What? What we're we're understanding was it what the undercurrent 205 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:39.519 understanding is. 206 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:42.759 That's right, and yeah, this is brand new news. So 207 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:47.159 I've yet to investigate this. I do. I filed foys 208 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.519 with the ATF and the FBI for her records now 209 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:55.480 that she's deceased, and I'm planning on doing similar searches 210 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:58.279 with the local fire department get the incident reports, so 211 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:01.440 I'll have more to more to hopefully, and if any 212 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:03.879 other researchers want to beat me to that, fine, I'm 213 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.799 plenty busy. I would please somebody scoopy do so I 214 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:11.200 don't have to do the work. But they're and by 215 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.080 the way, the ATF already denied my request, so this 216 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.799 is interesting. I could break this news. I filed it 217 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:20.799 this morning and they responded in the afternoon saying, you know, 218 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:24.639 we're denying it. You need to prove that Carol Holle 219 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.600 is dead, otherwise we might be violating her privacy rights. 220 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:31.399 So they're not taking the report's word for it. I 221 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:34.480 don't know if it's a stonewalling tactic or bureaucracy, but 222 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:40.200 in any event, it got somewhat interesting, But yeah, she 223 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:42.519 dies in the house fire. But the podcast goes into 224 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.720 like she really seemed to spiral into severe paranoia, where 225 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:49.200 in the years leading up to her death she was 226 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.799 pretty much a shut in. She would even like smoke 227 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.679 cigarettes in like a little stowaway department like under her house. 228 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:01.480 She wouldn't go outside. Probably a little bit schizophrenic, and 229 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:05.679 the question is were people actually still messing with her 230 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:12.480 or were she just spiraling into mental illness. That's exactly right, 231 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:16.960 and tar Ronson's credit, he does leave that open apparently, 232 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:20.080 so this is interesting. She made of friends with like 233 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.360 a local tough guy who would like fix her car 234 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:26.039 at like ten at night, because again she's a shut in, 235 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:29.600 doesn't want to let anybody in her house. She wouldn't 236 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.240 even take out the trash because she thought that somebody 237 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.559 would take the DNA. By the way, I think we 238 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.840 forgot to mention she was living under an assumed name, well, Sarah, 239 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:47.240 what's the name, Sarah, Sarah Collins. So yeah, she wouldn't 240 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:49.440 even take out the trash because she's worried that they 241 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.759 might get her DNA and figure out It's really how 242 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.639 At one point she's in the backyard with the guy, 243 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.799 and she says, they get down and she thinks somebody 244 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:00.720 is watching them, and they crawl back to the house. 245 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:04.679 She told the guy that she had infiltrated like Muslim 246 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.879 extremist groups ahead of the twenty twelve Boston bombing, So 247 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.679 it seems like she kind of wanted to get the 248 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:17.399 psychological baggage off her chest without telling the guy like 249 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:20.840 who she really was. Like it, it is interesting. 250 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.399 That that or she did more. I mean, I doubt it, 251 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:25.080 but it's like. 252 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.559 Infiltrating Arab groups. I think it was just like a 253 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:34.720 twisting the facts, you know, for psychological. 254 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:36.080 I guess that would make sense if she did feel 255 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.200 the need she wanted to confide in someone and have 256 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:41.080 someone to you can't say it because then obviously be 257 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.360 I don't know, it's pretty she's pretty fucking famous, So 258 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.600 it's like a I don't know. I guess most most 259 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.320 people would have no idea, I mean, unless you're like 260 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.759 one of the handful of researchers out there. But still 261 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:52.519 even then, and you know, you wouldn't be too hard 262 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:53.919 to put two and two together, So I guess I 263 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:57.679 get that, but it is still, man, that is weird. 264 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.759 I mean, yeah, so she believe if she was being 265 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.919 watched by the FEDS up till her death. And again 266 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.440 there are where there are definite signs of mental illness. 267 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:09.440 I mean, I would say, going all the way back 268 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.000 to when she was a teenager, probably, But you know, 269 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.960 she's been credible on so many things that like we 270 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.360 we can't definitely dismiss it. We gotta you know, I'll 271 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:23.559 still be investigating and look closely at the fire report 272 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:24.600 and everything like that. 273 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.840 I mean people, and also given the context of this 274 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.080 story where you have tarn Tiki Kenneth trying to do 275 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:37.879 Michael Loudensonger, doctor Chum Lee would uh aiding Gillis no, 276 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:38.240 not eiding. 277 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.559 I forget his name, Gillis Parker. I forget the one 278 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:43.279 of one Richard Lee Guthrie. Like it's just like we 279 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:45.559 could just rattle off name name name name name, name 280 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:46.279 name name. 281 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:49.639 So it is a I don't know, the Muller murders, Like, 282 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:51.240 it's not that it's not that crazy. 283 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:54.600 Keep in mind we're coming up on you know, when 284 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.200 she died, it was months ahead of the thirtieth anniversary 285 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.399 of the bombing, but it was the already at the 286 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:07.799 anniversary of her informing on the bombing. So yeah, take 287 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:12.360 you know, do that what you will. One of the 288 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:17.600 most interesting things from Ronson's podcast was that her cousin Lucy, 289 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:19.919 who had a lot of bad things to say about 290 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:25.600 Carol but did confirmed that Carol definitely saw McVeigh before 291 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:30.360 the bombing. So Lucy tells a story that it's the 292 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.600 Christmas in ninety four, so four months ahead of time, 293 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:37.519 and her grandma just died and the grandma's like maiden 294 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:40.919 name or middle name was McVeigh, and so she's like, Okay, 295 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:44.320 I'm gonna name my kid's middle name McVeigh to honor 296 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:47.519 my grandma. And Carol just goes like, you're not gonna 297 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:51.080 want to do that, And so that comes from the 298 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:54.399 cousin that hates Carol, but she admits that well, in 299 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:57.440 this regard, she definitely called it because when the bombing 300 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:00.720 happens a couple months later, the cousin freaked the hell out. 301 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:06.919 So that's there. That's another really juicy, juicy drop in 302 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:08.840 Ronson's podcast. 303 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:09.080 That is interesting. 304 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:10.440 I mean, I guess it makes I guess that's just 305 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:16.120 all that does emphasize the level of uh, I know, foreboding. 306 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:18.399 I guess she had essentially because she had already warned 307 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:20.039 him about it. I mean she had to did what 308 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.799 we mentioned earlier, the the multiple occasions which you can 309 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:25.879 go look at the files and you know, see the 310 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.399 transcripts that say this where it's you know, her reporting 311 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:32.720 on what with we're going with Dennis Mayhon and Strasmeier 312 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.519 multiple times into to I believe case the courthouse and 313 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:39.519 the in the federal buildings if I recall correctly, so 314 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:40.879 and other buildings as well. 315 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:48.039 So it's a you know, Yeah, her specific comment about 316 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.759 McVeigh is interesting too, because we didn't have any I 317 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:54.120 don't think there's any actual smoking gun that says that 318 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:55.559 she definitely saw him. 319 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.559 I knew if you listen to the full Debutante podcast, 320 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:01.799 there's a lot of like she changes story and there's 321 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.359 conflicting reports on whether she may have saw somebody named 322 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.599 Tim Tuttle or not. But the cousin's story is very 323 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:10.640 compelling to me. 324 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.799 Yeah, she, uh, if I recall correctly, I believe, didn't 325 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.559 she think. I believe she thought that the actually the 326 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.000 John Doe one sketch. 327 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:18.799 Was one of the Ward brothers. 328 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:19.839 Yeah. 329 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.559 Yeah, so, I mean so that as a if you're 330 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.799 trying to look for identifying McVeigh, I mean, it's weird. 331 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:26.559 She says it two months later the other point, I 332 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:27.079 was gonna try. 333 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.200 But it's just kind of like, obviously she knew that 334 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:31.000 they were visiting, but it's like we didn't really have 335 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:34.079 an idea of to what degree she was concerned, Like 336 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.279 was it just like, oh, you saw this. But obviously 337 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:39.359 if two months ahead she's mentioning, oh, don't name McVeigh, 338 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:41.200 it's kind of like, oh shit, something else is going 339 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.359 on here, or she has a greater she probably has 340 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:45.000 more information. 341 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:45.720 So there definitely was. 342 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.599 Probably more we don't know of, but man, yeah, this 343 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.039 is a This is interesting, So I guess they're probably 344 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.240 more to come on this. I mean, I don't know 345 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.880 if there anything particularly in the vein of Carol Howe 346 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:56.640 that you feel. 347 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:57.880 Like we should mention at this point. 348 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:01.200 I think for anyone that's a you know, ignorant of everything, 349 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:03.000 I think we kind of gave the main beat. 350 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.160 She worked. She became an informant in Elam City. 351 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:09.480 Alam City is like obviously where we kind of purport 352 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.039 that the AAR kind of set up their home base 353 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.039 and there are you know, an assortment of between that 354 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.079 group of aar there are assortment of different ways that we. 355 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.000 Can connect McVeigh to that group. 356 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:21.960 So I mean kind of to just a quick and 357 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:24.480 dirty for people, but you know, obviously than Carol Howe 358 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:26.720 being the informant they were talking about here. So yeah, 359 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:28.759 just kind of a quick rundown in case I forgot 360 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.000 anything so far as the basics for new people, you know, 361 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:33.519 jumping on board, But is there anything else in the 362 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:35.680 vein of her before we move on to other updates, 363 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.039 because I mean I can't think of anything else. 364 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:39.279 Go ahead for people who are interested in Carol how 365 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:43.599 if they don't want to buy John Ronson's podcast on audible. Yeah, 366 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.880 there's also a TV show that came out two years 367 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.960 ago that's pretty good. It's the second season of the 368 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.319 Waco series for Showtime. It's Waco the Aftermath, which leads 369 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:57.480 up to the oka See bomb, and it has Carol 370 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:02.400 Howe at Ellaheim City scene, McVeigh and Strasmeier planning it. 371 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.000 The show's not perfect because it leaves out John Doe 372 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.279 two and a bunch of other stuff, but it's really 373 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.160 entertaining and if people don't want to dig into a 374 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.680 book or an article or a podcast, I would recommend 375 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:19.920 that last thing. I'll say. Speaking of Strassmeier, so longtime 376 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.720 listeners know that I interviewed him two years ago when 377 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:30.799 that show about Carol how came out, and he obviously 378 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.960 called Carol How crazy, said she made up everything. And 379 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.200 I do an article on Strasmeier responding to the show 380 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:43.000 and how it depicted him and Carol How. After that, 381 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:48.599 he stopped responding to my messages just totally. I thought 382 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.160 Strasmeyer got pissed off of my article and just decided 383 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.519 to cut me off totally. But when Carol died today, 384 00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:00.880 I messaged him and her responded right away. So that 385 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:05.599 shows you how much he cal He's probably having champagne 386 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:10.240 right now. And so she he gave me a really 387 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.359 interesting quote if I could find it. 388 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:17.640 Maybe you have it, oose, Okay, what quotes? 389 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.759 This just what he told me. 390 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:22.799 Give me a second, I'll bring it right up. 391 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.440 Uh okay. So he yeah, he responds, he said, I 392 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.680 said Carol Hall died, and he goes karma or is 393 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.440 somebody covering his tracks? It's a weird thing to say. 394 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.960 And then he said finishes How played an essential part 395 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.039 in the conspiracy to frame innocent people for the Oka 396 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:44.640 City bombing. It's like, Okay, well she didn't frame anybody 397 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.680 because nobody got charged for it, nobody outside of McVeigh. 398 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.880 That's kind of a weird thing to say, Karma or 399 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.640 somebody covering his tracks. 400 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:54.759 Yeah, it is a weird thing to say. It does 401 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:56.599