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It's because of you that I can put out the

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amount of material that I do. I can do what

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doing together on Continental Philosophy, it's all because of you.

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I want to welcome everyone back to the Peking Yona Show.

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Thomas is back and we will continue the series on

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continental philosophy. How are you doing, Thomas, I'm doing pretty

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well well. I uh I slept a little way todays.

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My sleep schedules screw up, but I feel well prepared.

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Speaker 2: But if if it seems uh short, that's why, So

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forgive me for that. This was kind of a hectic week. Thankfully,

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I feel a lot better, but I'm still fighting some

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fatigue and stuff. I read up. I study a lot

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on Grotius, the legal theorist, you know, and he was

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active about twenty years before Hobbes, and he's Hobbs is

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something of a counterpart to Grotius, although Grotius rejected the

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idea that he himself was in the mold of and

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at risk it's political theorist, and he were checked it outright,

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the idea of a political science, and that's important. And

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Grotus really everybody from Oliver Wendell Holmes Junior to hla

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Heart and I would argue even these law and economics types,

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their spiritual forbear is Grotius, and Grotius is the father

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of legal positivism as we know it. There's a lot

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of capital l liberals who like to claim that the

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idea of a natural right accruing in all humans to

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certain protections at law and things of this nature derived

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from Grotius. I think that's misguided. For a lot of reasons.

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Grotis was he was in a hostile dialogue with the

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concept and natural law, and for complicated reasons. But anybody

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who picks up Groteus, uh the love of war and peace,

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which is as magnum opus, will notice too that Carl

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Schmidt it was a debt to Grotius. And there's something

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peculiar in America because on the one hand, I mean,

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I'm convinced the American judiciary is quite literally a pository

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of abject mediocrities. I think a lot of these people

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don't have any meaningful understanding of the law, Like I

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really don't. That's not just because I have a not

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flattering view of people in government. I mean they're they're

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conceptual illiterates, like like the conceptual syntax of the law,

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which is pretty complicated at base, they just don't understand it.

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And I think that's going to become clear. I know

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a lot of people don't accept that, but I if

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you know what to look for in reading these opinions

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now from the federal bench. It's not just that they're

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ideologues who enjoy the opportunity to pontificate. It's the reason

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why they read like sociological screeds or like essays. It's

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because these people don't understand legal reasoning, so they're not

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really capable of rendering political opinions, you know, because it's it's, uh,

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it's like somebody who who can't master high school algebra

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holding forth on as like an MIT lecturer and like

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advanced you know, theoretical math or something. You know. But uh,

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there's this peculiar tendency in America to act like there's

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some sort of something like sacro sanct about the law.

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And I think that's frankly a highly Semitic tendency. But

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that's abou outside the scope of what we're talking about here.

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But what they but the people who propose these kinds

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of things, they invoke kind of like a bastardized legal

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positivism to shore it up, you know, And then they

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claim that they reject quote unquote religious rationalizations for rights

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based paradigms and things. But you know, you can't you

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can't claim to be a secularist and then invoke natural law.

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It doesn't work that way, you know, And you can't

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claim that the judiciary somehow sacra saying we've all got

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to like take a knee before it because the law

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is the sacred thing, while acknowledging that legal positivism is

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basically an empirical and pragmatic enterprise. And that's one of

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the contradictions I think that is going to prove fatal

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to this increasingly decrepit ideological consensus that reigned since nineteen

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thirty three. I mean, I see it's happening all over

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the place because like that just it doesn't have a

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leg to stand on in terms of precedent. Then it's

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when you're talking about a body of law and the

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theoretical foundations of it, you can't rely on a tautology,

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you know, for reasons that some of which are obvious

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and some maybe not so obvious. But you know, this

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isn't this isn't a superficial thing. It Uh. I just

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got a new laptop and still kind of figuring out

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I'm sorry, let me, I'm trying to open fucking window.

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There we go. But yeah, the law, the law of

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war in peace Grotius uh was most active in the

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early seventeen eighth century. He's more than fifteen eighty three.

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And yeah, his The Law of or in Peace was

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his most significant work. And again this preceded, This preceded

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Hobbes's body of work by about twenty years. That'll be

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clear too. Like Grotius, he wasn't interested in establishing a

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paradigm of or producing a central treatise. It's simply on

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positive law. It's not limited exclusively to the law of

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nations or what we'd consider international law in some rudimentary sense,

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but that is its central focus, and the law of nations.

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I think Grotius's opinion, it derives from practical reason and

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it comes into existence by way of consent us to

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the body politic within you know, the several states that

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constitute you know, political structure between governments. So there's an

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interconnectivity here that you know has to be abided. So

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you can't talk about positive law in discrete terms. You

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know that are categorically isolated from the systemic whole. The

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way to understand it is kind of like a statement

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of what the Romans considered the public law. You know

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that just publicum you know, from the perspective of a science,

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if you will. Okay, But again Groty has conspicuously distinguished

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as enterprise from that of Aristotle. I said this, There

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isn't a science of politics. There's a science of the law,

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wherein you know, order can be imposed on political impulses

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which are often pre rational and although predictable and cyclical,

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and you know, arguably conducted living parameters of bound irrationality.

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You know, particularly at zenith to the expression of these impulses,

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which is you know, the state of war. That that

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doesn't mean there's some underlying science to political behavior or

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you know, the manner in which nations conduct each other

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in their efforts to survive and perpetuate their existence and

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capture power from their rivals. But the law, however, can

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be understood through you know, the lens of a of

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a systemic science. You know that framework. At least Grotius

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is the first thinker, as far as I know, in

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the Western canon, who held himself out held out his

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body of work as juristic, purely juristic, as opposed to

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a philosophical or theological treatment of politics and the law

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of war on peace. It kicked off this entire body

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of work in Western Europe that dealt with treaties is

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on the public law, the laws of nations, and this

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tendency kicked off, you know again in the sixteenth century

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and really continued until you know, the end of the

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eighteenth century. And that's really interesting. There's a significance there.

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And it's not it's not just the fact of you know,

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the century leading up to the to the Thirty Years

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War was very anarchic, but there's some that there's like

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an apocal significance in terms of the development of Europe's

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intellectual heritage that you know, it is the reason for this,

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I'm convinced. You know, it's something that would require a way,

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a way more thorough investigation. But the central premise of

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the law of or and peace and Grotius his entire

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body of work is the idea that man is by

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nature of rational and social animal. Okay, that doesn't mean

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that everything man does is derived from rationality. And again

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he acknowledges that politics often is derivative of pre rational impulses.

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But man is capable of a reason and that's what

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distinguishes him from beasts of the field. And ultimately, you know,

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man is most expedient in looking after what's going to

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guarantee his own self preservation. Okay, and this is a

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point too that is echoed very much in Hobbes. Okay,

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almost certainly, Hobbes read a lot of Grotius, you know,

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different as they were in terms of their suppositions on

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political ontology, but you know it, uh, Grotius conspicuously too

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he attacked the classical idea of conventionalism and classical natural

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right as distinguished from Thomas to natural rights, you know,

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which is basically the Aristotilian model, which, as we got

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into an earlier episodees it suggests not just that it's

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you know, it's a just positive component the essential nature

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of different kinds of men, like what their station is,

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and what their potentialities are, what the potential letters are

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of their soul, you know. And this idea that convention

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or you know, justifies itself by its tendency to be perpetuated.

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You know, this is suggestive of you know, institutions being

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the product of a pre ordained structure and things. Grotius

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rejects that, and interestingly he attacks it in part in

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the form of a dialogue and one of the recurring

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characters in his dialogue was Carniatis. Carniatis was He was

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the head of the Athenian Academy during what was called

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the Skeptical period around the one fifties BC, and Grotius

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has Carniades argue and plade the cases foreign against like

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various tendencies that Grotius either wants to explicate or contrast

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with his conceptual paradigm, or that he wants to attack

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outright and attempt to impeach. Basically, what you can derive

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from these dialogues is Grottias are saying, look, allah is

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is these are these are These are rules that man

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is imposed upon himself collectively, you know, in in congress

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with the social organism of which he is a part,

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for a reason of expediency and self protection, you know.

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And yeah, from place to place and culture to culture

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and race to race. You know, laws vary, but there

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are certain commonalities that derive from that core rational impulse,

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and the law is the product of that cap capacity

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to reason. But that doesn't mean that there is some

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law of nature. Strictly speaking, you know, all men are impelled,

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in Grotius's view, by natural desires towards ends that are

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ultimately advanced to themselves and are largely exclusivists. And yes,

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man is a social organism. And unless men are truly

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possessed of pure avarice and not going to go out

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of their way as individuals to harm their fellows for

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just you know, for for its own sake. But at

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the end of the day, Ingrowtius's paradigm, these these consensus

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don't emerge that impose law upon the body politic or

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the social organism, you know, based upon some immutable natural

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law that can be identified and divinated by either something

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like learned caste of jurists, or by you know, resort

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to pious reflection on you know, the conscience of the

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inner which this or by you know, the study of

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scientific principles that you know seem to suggest a harmonious

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order to the universe, you know, be it physical properties

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or the metaphysical permutations of you know, valued judgments and things.

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You know. Consequently, there is no there is no form,

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There is no justice that is natural to man other

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than you know, remedies for social evils that derive from

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this capacity for higher reason you know, and mana'ge ability

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to calculate those remedies in congress with others, you know,

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as as part of a social organism, you know, suggests

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that man is capable of higher purposes in his designs

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and plans. But again, you know, we're back to this

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impulse towards self preservation and self protection and the practical

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business of the governance in lieu of anarchy and reversion

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to savagery. We're not talking about identifying, you know, is

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some godly or metaphysically present or epistemically prior, you know,

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body of knowledge or something that that that just adheres

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to some perfect concept of justice or something you know.

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And like I said, and what really jumps out of

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me is studying Grotius. And in the manuscript I'm writing

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right now, Grotius features rather large and I got I

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got turned on to Grotius before I went to law school. Well,

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not that anybody cares, but just for context, I started

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reading them when I was an undergrad. Because I realized this,

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I bumped up again and again against this, this kind

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of peculiar, sort of bastardized claim that cloaked itself in

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the language of positive law, yet was retorting to natural

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law arguments. But again not the ones that were familiar

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and precedented. You know, it's kind of like, what is this?

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And I I realized, well, it's it's it's an effort

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by you know, the liberals and progressives and people with

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kind of utopian ideas that were common to the to

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the New Deal era and especially the post war years

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to that draw upon legalism and uh, and an attempt

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to suggest that a linear heritage between themselves and you know,

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the the progenitors of of of kind of modern legal theory,

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which axiomatically leads to some you know, any such person

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trying to they claim to Grotius, or they claimed to

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the Mantles as his error. But yeah, so what jumped

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out to me first and foremost was, you know, this

243
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is Ali Rendel, Holmes and H. L. A Heart and

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that's you know where they that's all the great legal

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positives or legal realists. Would you know, that would be

246
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their starting point, So that that's important. Interestingly too, Grotius,

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he he Andrew impeached Stoicism as well as Epicureanism, and

248
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a lot of his dialogues where Carniatis is like a

249
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main character, and uh that uh, that's not accidental Carniades

250
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was very heterodox, and he was an enemy of the

251
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Stoics and intellectual terms, which was unusual, at least in

252
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the way he went about it. Like to be clear,

253
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like that the Stoics technically fell in the skeptic camp,

254
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even though even though they had some concept that like

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a monatic unity to reality that presumably contained at least

256
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an aspect of you know, a will of the gods

257
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or a prime a metaphysical prime movement, you know. And

258
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obviously that that said odds with a pure skepticism of

259
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the kind that had taken rid of the Academy. But

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it's it's still outside the scope and it's complexity the argument,

261
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I mean, but it's not it's not an accident that

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that Grotius suggested this setting and and the characters that

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he did for these thought experiments. That that's important for context,

264
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that is what I mean. But uh the U. But

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he also direct but he also took a lot from

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the Stoics, and I think that that's why Grotius another

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secondary reason why he went out of his way to

268
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make much of the aspects of their ethical posture and

269
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,559
and their their and their ontological claims that he disagreed

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with it. Uh, what Grotius did accept Again, men are

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in their natural state impelled really merely merely preserved their

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own being, their own physical essence. This is distinguished from

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wanting to seek pleasure and avoid pain. You know, you

274
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can train an animal to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

275
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Grotius isn't saying that man is basically a highly capable

276
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animal who's a verse to one kind of stimulus and

277
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,720
favors another. That's not what he's saying. He's saying that

278
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from jump or from this, you know, beginning point, man's

279
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:48,440
cable of conceptualizing what is going to preserve himself, and

280
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,839
he's also a cable of contemplating a posterity beyond himself,

281
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,000
whether it's his nation, or his tribe or his direct lineage.

282
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You know, it's not it's not self preservation the basis

283
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:04,000
most primitive sense. I mean, obviously that's a component of it.

284
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:13,640
But again this is derivative of man's nature as you know,

285
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:19,640
the exclusive beneficiary of of of higher you know, the

286
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capacity to reason, and in a way that you know

287
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,880
sets them apart from all other life forms. And that's

288
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why he denies that this is the defining quality of man.

289
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,880
You know, this might be the behavioral paradigm that gives

290
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,519
rise to all theoretical structures that come to constitute, you know,

291
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:55,319
the political and the juristic framework that makes the political possible.

292
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:03,519
But you know these things is derived from the capacity

293
00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:08,319
to reason. And that is what is the definitive quality

294
00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:17,640
of man. So simply stated to Grotius, that kind of

295
00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:23,000
core original desired to preserve one's natural physical constitution then

296
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:33,920
guarantee one's posterity. That's essentially a hardwired or instinctive or

297
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:41,359
subconscious drive in man to realize its full nature and

298
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,000
to grow and develop and continue to develop as a

299
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:51,079
rational being capable of higher reason. So the rational faculty

300
00:27:51,480 --> 00:28:02,839
is the essential quality of man. And you know that

301
00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:07,240
that can be said to be the most excellent and

302
00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,200
the highest of all the of all the original or

303
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:16,960
natural desires or instincts or tendencies within man. If another

304
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,599
reason that it makes it makes all other human activity possible,

305
00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:32,279
you know. And it's this rational faculty which perceives justice

306
00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:38,119
as virtuous because justice makes it possible to live in society.

307
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:43,920
And living in society is the only way that this

308
00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:51,359
rational faculty and man's excellent and and and and higher

309
00:28:51,839 --> 00:29:00,000
nature can truly flourish, you know. So Proteus is saying,

310
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,279
saying that the classical view, as well as the Thomas view,

311
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:12,119
is backwards, you know, in the way it describes you know,

312
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,319
the the ontology these things, as well as the as

313
00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:24,160
well as the metaphysics of uh of of virtue. You know.

314
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,640
And this is a very novel argument, you know, and

315
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,119
people should take notice. There's there's nothing in this that

316
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:40,000
suggests some like equalitarian or you know, remedial social justice

317
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:44,160
in terms of equalizing tendencies. There there's nothing like that

318
00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:49,160
in here, because Groty has never made those claims, you know.

319
00:29:49,559 --> 00:29:56,480
So this idea that as uh some early and you know,

320
00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:02,119
not so really progresses claimed that well, you know, Grotius

321
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:10,480
describing the essential nature of man like vesting in in

322
00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:15,119
the human being, like quad the human being, rather than

323
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,279
suggesting that it vests in that human being station or

324
00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:23,799
that you know, his function, you know, be it a

325
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,400
landlord or a father, or a patriarch or a slave

326
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:33,319
or a king. You know, the idea of that essence,

327
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,960
that essential nature vesting in the human being independent of function.

328
00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:41,920
See that that that's that's the first suggestion of a

329
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,039
of a progressive view of the human being, and you know,

330
00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,039
the dignity of the human being. That's nonsense, Nothing like

331
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:53,279
that is being suggested. And again, anybody who claims that

332
00:30:54,319 --> 00:31:00,559
what they're doing is they're they're making a positivist argument, well,

333
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:11,640
injecting these kinds of undefinable in concrete terms, you know,

334
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:19,480
metaphysical characteristics into the human being and suggesting that the

335
00:31:20,319 --> 00:31:23,559
substance of justice has to be the realization of the

336
00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:27,839
dignity of every human being, which seems to almost always

337
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:34,079
entail some kind of wish fulfillments that you know, doesn't

338
00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:39,640
really have to do with you know, capital s society,

339
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:47,759
or with improving upon the human beings moral character, you know,

340
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:53,240
nor of perfecting the rationality of the human being, which

341
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,880
you think that somebody would consider paramount if they're a

342
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,240
true humanists. But that I I'm not trying to rant

343
00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:07,519
about a tangential subject. But this is important because you'll

344
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:11,119
find all kinds of treatments of grogious that from especially

345
00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:14,119
in the last fifty years, that are kind of through

346
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:17,519
the lens of people like either gen Rawl's or they're

347
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:25,759
these kinds of bastardize them progressive ast screeds and that

348
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:34,680
are always trying to claim, you know, modern political theorists

349
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:47,279
as as their own. But to bring it back grotius

350
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,880
description and his impeachment of the concept of natural right

351
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,440
as conventionally understood, that's the key to understanding since his

352
00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:06,160
conceptions paradigm. It's in relation to this conception of man

353
00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:14,400
is a rational and social animal that any any any

354
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,559
any notion of right, and any concept of political society

355
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:25,680
or be understood right and its primary meaning to Grotius

356
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,079
is that which is just, you know, and that which

357
00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:40,279
is just is that what facilitates, you know, society and

358
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:47,799
the men finding society within a political organism, you know.

359
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,559
So again, what's right is what is just. What is

360
00:33:52,839 --> 00:34:00,599
just is what derives from practical reason, and what derives

361
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,079
some practical reason is the highest good because it's the

362
00:34:04,079 --> 00:34:07,240
most excellent human characteristic, and it's the most excellent human

363
00:34:07,319 --> 00:34:12,960
characteristic because it allows man to fully flourish and realize

364
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:21,519
his exceptional potentiality as an organism. And what is unjust,

365
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,519
thus is anything that is in conflict with the nature

366
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:28,679
of society between human beings who are endowed with the

367
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:40,599
aforementioned higher reason, And interestingly, Grotius quotes Cicero and Seneca

368
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:48,519
to shore up this statement. I believe that's him invoking

369
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:55,000
a kind of loose model of practice, or something at

370
00:34:55,039 --> 00:35:01,960
least suggestive of that. Less people dismiss these things. That's

371
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:08,719
just axioms and postulate's about. You know, what can be

372
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:15,360
identified as the good in in kind of axiomatic terms.

373
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:29,079
Obviously to the great Roman statesman, you know, the natural

374
00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:32,719
attraction of mendu society and their ability to act in

375
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:40,519
conformity with that instinctive attraction would be something very worthy

376
00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:44,280
of praise and discussion. I'm not enough of a Roman historian.

377
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,519
I'm not like a classicalist. I know something about Doric Athens,

378
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,840
but I don't I'm not qualified enough to speak on

379
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:57,280
why he chose a Cicero and Seneca. Augustus Caesar will

380
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,920
probably have been who I invoke. But again I I'm not.

381
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,440
I'm not learning in the subject matter in a way

382
00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:15,079
that can substantiate it. Hostulitz. You know, so praggly speaking,

383
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:31,480
a crime is an act of injustice because it's destructive

384
00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:35,280
of trust generally within the social organism. You know, like,

385
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,079
for example, if you steal from somebody, you see, if

386
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:41,519
you Steve, Steve, you steal what belongs to others. It's

387
00:36:41,559 --> 00:36:46,800
not just you're not just harming that person and violating

388
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:53,599
that person's trust and their fellow man. You're undermining the

389
00:36:53,760 --> 00:37:01,840
basis of all trust and therefore of society, and you're

390
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:11,800
acting against the natural order to which man belongs, you know, which,

391
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:19,679
in addition to being a pragmatic affair, the structuring of

392
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,800
this social organism and society, it also reflects man's capability

393
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:37,719
towards the flourishing of his excellence. So really, all injustice

394
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,760
is merely injustice. There's not some that's acceptable, in some

395
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,760
that's not. You know. Basically, any unjust act is as

396
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:53,840
bad as any other, you know, And this is this

397
00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:57,239
is what kind of eliminates the distinction between you know,

398
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:02,519
a kind of civic morality and you know, a true morality,

399
00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:08,079
if you will. A lot of positive law. Theoris subsequently

400
00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:16,360
made that distinction very enthusiastically, and anyone who reads growth

401
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,880
has realizes that there is no such distinction. In fact,

402
00:38:20,039 --> 00:38:27,079
the core tenet is that that's an artificial paradigm, you know,

403
00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:31,960
or it's it's just an incorrect way of understanding what's

404
00:38:33,159 --> 00:38:40,000
under discussion. How were doing okay, I was just checking

405
00:38:40,039 --> 00:39:01,000
on our time, you know. And similar similarly, you know,

406
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,239
the law of nature such that it exists, again, not

407
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:11,280
natural law, but the law of nature, the the conditions

408
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,440
that attached to things that from which you know, the

409
00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:21,119
social organism derives in terms of its structure, and you know,

410
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:27,639
the behavioral modes and coming upon parties to it and

411
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:33,960
things like that. The law in nature permits a person

412
00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:38,280
to kill somebody escaping with stolen property, you know, if

413
00:39:38,519 --> 00:39:42,280
for example, it's not possible to otherwise recover that stolen property.

414
00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:48,519
You know. But the reason why that's acceptable is because

415
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:53,000
again it's not that you know, property is so very important,

416
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:59,039
and it's not because you know, any any any individual

417
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:04,960
man is permitted to the satiate some sort of instinct

418
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,639
towards vengeance if somebody steals from him. It's because again,

419
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:13,159
to commit a crime is to commit is they do

420
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,400
violence to the entire concept of trust and to threaten

421
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:27,559
the totality of the enterprise. So any myscrant so disposed

422
00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:34,079
needs to be eliminated with extreme prejudice, because it's not

423
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,840
a matter of precisely, because it's not a matter of

424
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:45,199
individual rights, you know, it's a matter of collective defense,

425
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:51,079
and without the social organism and the laws that both

426
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:57,159
derive from and facilitated, no man's property, no man's life,

427
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,480
no man's family is safe and can be secure. And

428
00:41:03,679 --> 00:41:14,480
that's the nature of justice in Grotius's paradigm. And that's interestingly,

429
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:25,840
there's a selective invocation of that reasoning in a somewhat

430
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:32,480
perverse capacity that's traditionally invoked by enemies of the death penalty.

431
00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:34,880
That's an issue that's kind of falling off. I was

432
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,559
thinking about this Forgere the tangent. But there's DeSantis, Florida's

433
00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:42,599
executing a huge amount of people lately. I think they've

434
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:47,519
already executed seven people this year. And there's two more guys.

435
00:41:50,079 --> 00:41:54,119
There's two more condemned of detainees, and the sand it's

436
00:41:54,239 --> 00:42:00,599
just signed their death warrant literally one of them. Particularly

437
00:42:00,639 --> 00:42:08,000
horrible and bizarre case this Uh, this, this guy committed

438
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,880
this brazen rape and homicide of this poor lady in

439
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:22,360
a fairly public place, and you know it. UH is

440
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:30,119
definitely kind of a textbook case of what's euphemistically called

441
00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:36,719
special circumstances, which the jury are aggravating circumstances that permit

442
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,400
the imposition of of the of capital liability. But in

443
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,480
any event, what jumped out at me is this was

444
00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:49,199
in the national news cycle. I think probably more because

445
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,440
people are have kind of like a passing interest into

446
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:56,000
Santis and the facts of this case are so horrible

447
00:42:56,079 --> 00:43:01,039
and lurid. But you know, really until I mean, you're

448
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:04,360
you're littler than me, you remember this too. There used

449
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,199
to be this really impassioned discussion and opposition to the

450
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,039
death penalty, and that's really kind of gone away, you know,

451
00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:17,840
I don't. It's just not something people really engage with anymore.

452
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:27,360
But traditionally there's this kind of egalitarian or not a yeah,

453
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,440
there's there's there's the egalitarian argument, which is what's arbitrary

454
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,280
and capricious who gets executed? But then there's a they'd invoke, uh,

455
00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:41,880
this kind of pragmatic argument that will if if if

456
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:49,079
if a capital, if capital punishment isn't adequately functioning as

457
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:54,079
a deterrent, then it can't be justified. And it's really

458
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,679
not precedented in terms of why men are put to death.

459
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:03,239
You're put to death because that's the punishment, because like

460
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,760
scripture tells us, you know, the blood of the victims

461
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,519
cry out the heaven for vengeance. And like Demeistras said,

462
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:19,360
you know the essences, sovereignty is the power of life

463
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,960
and death. So if the sovereign is gonna say, I'm

464
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:27,039
gonna let some miscreant murder people with impunity and I'm

465
00:44:27,079 --> 00:44:32,079
gonna hamstring myself and deny myself the same power, then

466
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:37,159
what's purporting to be the sovereign isn't actually sovereign if

467
00:44:37,199 --> 00:44:46,480
some sort of gilded you know, imposter but such that

468
00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:52,360
there is precedent, I mean, granted the argument that it

469
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:58,639
is outlined that was often invoked by opponent's gable punishment.

470
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,519
That's it's a bastard version of the argument. But it

471
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,039
is whether they realize they' or not, derivative of this

472
00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:11,360
kind of early positive law paradigm as to what the

473
00:45:11,519 --> 00:45:17,599
nature is of justice and things of that nature, which

474
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:24,000
is interesting. But again, I I realize younger people probably

475
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,519
aren't going to be familiar with the fact that there

476
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:36,000
was this tremendous debate over death penalty issues and the

477
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:40,000
kind of the kind of resolution of that that and

478
00:45:40,199 --> 00:45:42,039
and and gun rights, and I know there's a lot

479
00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:44,360
of like there's a lot of bluster and a lot

480
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,039
of cap about, you know, from the regime and and

481
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,559
and these functionaries saying they want to ban guns, but

482
00:45:50,639 --> 00:45:54,920
that's not that's not gonna happen, you know. And I

483
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:03,119
got mixed feelings about the Supreme Court enforcing the Second

484
00:46:03,159 --> 00:46:12,840
Amendment against the States, but regardless of those concerns, just

485
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,519
the fact that it has been incorporated against the States

486
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:18,360
means that it's essentially a settled issue, like private ownership

487
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:23,880
of firearms is never going to be categorically banned, and

488
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:26,400
the death penalty is never going to go away nationally,

489
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,239
you know, the states that have it, it's gonna continue

490
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,920
in earnest and it's just kind of off the table,

491
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,599
and that that's fascinating because it represents a seat change.

492
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:47,760
So you know, this is the key kind of takeaway

493
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:58,599
and the reason why I keep invoking these examples of

494
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:09,079
how this paradigm that growth is you know, developed, differs

495
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:20,480
from contemporary perspectives is a because it's completely at odds

496
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,159
with the with with the idea of of of human

497
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,079
rights as we would think of it, you know, or

498
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,639
the idea of subjective rights that you know, held by

499
00:47:33,519 --> 00:47:37,360
the person simply as as a human being, you know,

500
00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:44,039
and and not embodying objective qualities again, such as that

501
00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:47,320
of a master or a slave, or a ruler, or

502
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,840
a father or head of a household or a landowner.

503
00:47:54,559 --> 00:48:04,679
You know, there is some sort of connection between Grotius's

504
00:48:06,039 --> 00:48:12,760
body of theory and the kind of fully realized contemporary

505
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:20,639
idea of absolute subjective rights. But that's not unlike you know,

506
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,920
like there's a connection between Marx and Hagel. You know

507
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:28,159
that that doesn't mean that Hegelianism is truly you know,

508
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:32,880
the ethical forebear of Marxism or something. You know, and

509
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:38,960
if you accept the you know as I do, that

510
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:47,760
the dialectical process is uh kind of like the prime

511
00:48:50,159 --> 00:49:01,599
agent in the development of political and sociological structures. You know,

512
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:08,960
there's going to be cross pollination between monumental ideas. Obviously,

513
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:19,360
that doesn't suggest some sort of unimpeded lineage or like

514
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,519
some unselling heritage between you know, what came before in

515
00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:27,760
the present. It it just means that nothing occurs in

516
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:38,639
isolation and particularly not you know, matters of political significance

517
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,519
that impact the psychological environment in just positive ways and

518
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:53,880
you know, inform and impact these uh structures in the

519
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,920
real world. I mean that should be obvious, but I

520
00:49:56,679 --> 00:49:59,440
desibate some pushback on this, so I'm kind of trying

521
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:05,199
to or maybe not, but I'm trying to preclude some

522
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,320
of that. And I mean, and that's totally illegitimate. I mean,

523
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,800
I'm not saying people shouldn't call me out on some

524
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:19,320
of these things. It's a complicated subject matter, but it's

525
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:25,480
important to clarify, and not just because I'm interested in

526
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:30,840
depriving the regime of credibility in terms of the intellectual

527
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,280
precedent that it claims to be the heirs to, but

528
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:39,559
I think that's important too. We're appropriate, obviously, but that's

529
00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:47,639
not The kind of linear view of historical processes is

530
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:54,079
insidious for the similar for similar reasons. You know, it

531
00:50:54,360 --> 00:51:01,360
kind of cuts off not just critical analysis, but constructive

532
00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:10,360
structuring and conceptual terms of what came before, and that

533
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:18,880
really precludes a meaningful diagnosis of you know, the state

534
00:51:19,039 --> 00:51:25,280
of things, particularly again in dialectical and psychological terms. And

535
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,840
these things are paramount if you know, you're a politable

536
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:37,079
theorist or if you're a a layman who dedicates himself

537
00:51:37,119 --> 00:51:40,599
to this subject matter, you know, like I am. It's

538
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:55,039
there's also and this isn't as developed at least and

539
00:51:56,119 --> 00:52:06,199
Grotius's main body of work, the kind of final iteration

540
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:19,079
of right as a naturally occurring phenomenon derived from these

541
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:28,599
structures that you know, are the product demands higher rationality

542
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:38,719
and the social organism that encompasses and is the product

543
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:51,000
of that capability. The kind of the kind of unexamined

544
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:58,360
aspect of that is uh, that which obliges the men

545
00:52:58,519 --> 00:53:03,239
to act correctly, not just to refrain from doing things

546
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:11,880
that violate you know, the public trust and the you know,

547
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:19,320
confidences in the essential aspects of the social organism and

548
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:31,840
political society, but you know, there's a natural sanction that

549
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:41,079
it must attend people who refrain from correct action, and

550
00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:50,280
people would deliberately shirk their obligations they're in and that

551
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:55,079
kind of volitional understanding of right and that kind of

552
00:53:55,119 --> 00:54:05,719
affirmative obligation towards action of a certain type, you know,

553
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:10,239
within the per number of justice. We're probably talking about,

554
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:16,679
you know, what citizenship is, but it's not. But it's

555
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:22,599
distinguishable from an active citizenship because it's explicitly moral, you know,

556
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:32,440
and that warrants that kind of deeper dive. I've got

557
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,880
my own thoughts on that, but I I've got a

558
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:42,199
that I'd have to delve deeper into some a grody.

559
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,960
Is this more esoteric stuff, and particularly the dialogues that

560
00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:53,360
he wrote, you know, but this is another aspect that,

561
00:54:56,079 --> 00:55:07,000
you know, kind of removes this entire theoretical model from

562
00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:16,199
the merely pragmatic or utilitarian. You know, you don't impose

563
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:24,679
affirmative duties for the sake of mere pragmatism, you know,

564
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,360
in the purely in the purely utilitarian model of what

565
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:37,480
constitutes the the duties in coming upon individuals and the

566
00:55:37,559 --> 00:55:43,840
social organism. It basically stops it non interference, you know.

567
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:52,679
And I think, uh, there's more of a there's at

568
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:58,360
least an Aristotelian echo in Grotius. Much as he sought

569
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:07,760
to distinguish himself from political theories, I think that that

570
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,239
owes more to just that. I think you wanted to

571
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:22,440
make it clear that he wasn't suggesting some overall theory

572
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:27,639
of politics. He was suggesting a science of the law

573
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:40,159
which had anthropological and psychological aspects that were explanatory of

574
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:50,079
the human condition within this narrow domain of human activity,

575
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,280
you know, that domain being you know, within political society.

576
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:07,320
I I don't read into that some sort of blanket

577
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:16,199
repudiation of you know, Aristotelian political ontology. But again, I uh,

578
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:25,199
i'd have to dive deeper into the subject matter. That's uh,

579
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,760
that's not all I got on Grotius for today. I

580
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,840
hope that was worthwhile. It's a very complicated subject matter.

581
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:34,199
I mean that that's not to say that this, you know,

582
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,960
I the subs can follow this stuff as well as

583
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,320
I can. I wasn't such anything like that, but it

584
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,320
can be difficult to make it interesting. But it's important.

585
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:46,960
It's the essential foundation of of some of what we're

586
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:52,880
going to get into. I was contemplating, I want to

587
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:58,599
cover Calvin and Martin Luther because I think that that's important.

588
00:57:59,559 --> 00:58:03,039
But to be fair, that means I should also cover Aquinas.

589
00:58:03,239 --> 00:58:05,039
And I've got to bone up on that because I'm

590
00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:09,000
not Roman Catholic, and when I was at Loyola, I

591
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:12,199
had to read Aquinas, and everybody should read Aquinas anyway.

592
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,159
But in the interest of kind of like equal time,

593
00:58:19,079 --> 00:58:24,000
and it probably seems like I should have arguably, like

594
00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:27,920
after Thucydides, I should have we should have gotten into

595
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:32,280
Aquinance in the scholastics. But to be fair, you know,

596
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,920
I'm a political theorist at Base, and I wanted to

597
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,400
emphasize the trajectory of political theory within the Cononell tradition.

598
00:58:41,159 --> 00:58:49,199
And you know, if it seems like I'm jumping around

599
00:58:49,679 --> 00:58:55,440
to uh go back to Aquinas and Scholasticism as we're

600
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:59,719
reading about Reformation thinkers, I wanted to include there in.

601
00:59:00,199 --> 00:59:03,159
I mean, theology is always in dialogue with theology. There's

602
00:59:03,199 --> 00:59:09,639
something about it that is kind of outside of temporal politics.

603
00:59:09,679 --> 00:59:14,000
And that's not to say that theological considerations aren't impacted

604
00:59:14,079 --> 00:59:19,440
by political and cultural variables that are temporally sensitive. Obviously

605
00:59:19,519 --> 00:59:22,239
they continue it rather obviously they are. But I think

606
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,639
it makes sense to deal with the the the directly

607
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:33,599
theological aspects, you know, kind of in succession. So I

608
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,000
gotta think about this for a minute. But yeah, I

609
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:42,360
if not next session the following one, I'm going to

610
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:48,679
get into Calvin and Martin Luther. If that sounds agreeable, Man,

611
00:59:48,719 --> 00:59:49,559
it's your show.

612
00:59:51,119 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: Study both of them at length.

613
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. Yeah, all right, man, I hope this

614
00:59:57,679 --> 01:00:00,920
was worthwhile to the subsc well it all.

615
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,119
Speaker 1: It seems to me when you look at Grotius, considering

616
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,000
he's talking about natural law, the fact that he's also

617
01:00:08,079 --> 01:00:12,599
a humanist. There's tension there, so it's going to be

618
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,840
it seems like it's going it's going to be complicated.

619
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:24,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the law is always when you're talking about

620
01:00:24,079 --> 01:00:27,480
the law, like unless you're literally talking about you know,

621
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:33,840
and unless you're talking about you know, and it's most

622
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:39,159
kind of basic and primitive you know, uh, like like

623
01:00:39,239 --> 01:00:42,239
a penal code that just like sanctions like obvious you know,

624
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:48,480
violations of the person's property or their bodily entirety. You're

625
01:00:48,559 --> 01:00:51,880
talking about, uh, you're talking about like conceptual models that

626
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:59,639
are like abstractions built on abstractions. And you know, one

627
01:00:59,639 --> 01:01:03,320
of the ands I like Oliver Wendell Holmes, you know,

628
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:05,960
like he to the point that the law is always politicized,

629
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:10,320
you know, and and people who can't accept that, they're

630
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:12,719
they're going to resort to this kind of increasingly tortured

631
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,920
reasoning that to try and suggest that you know, well,

632
01:01:17,159 --> 01:01:19,800
you know, the the laws that sort of like learned

633
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,159
science of ethics, you know what I mean that that

634
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:25,840
that spins things off and all kinds of sophistry and

635
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:36,800
tatological you know, nonsense. But it's yeah, it uh, but

636
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:43,320
also too I mean there's just, uh, there was a

637
01:01:45,639 --> 01:01:51,920
it's kind of remarkable to like this the uh, like

638
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,519
the the fifteen, sixteen, and seventeenth centuries you had. There's

639
01:01:57,639 --> 01:02:01,320
like the politics of Europe are incredibly complicated, you know,

640
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:10,119
and you still had you know, like sectarian matters. We're

641
01:02:10,159 --> 01:02:15,719
still having a huge impact on on Warren Peace question,

642
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:20,519
the midical dayity affairs. You know, the scientific Revolution was

643
01:02:20,599 --> 01:02:26,519
going full steam. You know, the modern state was arriving

644
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:35,840
and you know, imposing genuine future shock on populations. You know,

645
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:40,880
the first Industrial Revolution was kicking off, you know, and

646
01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:46,559
so you had really really great minds writing on matters

647
01:02:46,599 --> 01:02:55,519
of politics and you know it's yeah, it's really fascinating economically.

648
01:02:55,679 --> 01:03:00,440
But yeah, well we'll continue the series in earnest then. Yeah,

649
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,679
I was, I was, like I said, I'm still I'm

650
01:03:03,719 --> 01:03:07,960
not I'm feeling good, but I'm still struggling with fatigue

651
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,119
a little bit. So like, forgive me if I seen

652
01:03:11,119 --> 01:03:14,840
a little low energy, I hope I didn't convey that.

653
01:03:17,039 --> 01:03:20,199
Speaker 1: No worries, do quick plugs, We'll get out of here.

654
01:03:21,039 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I uh, I'm trying to increase the volume and

655
01:03:27,039 --> 01:03:33,000
frequency of my content on substack. Yeah, I'm doing a

656
01:03:33,039 --> 01:03:35,920
lot of collabs. I just collaut with Joel Davis. I'm

657
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,559
doing the World at War collab with you know, my

658
01:03:38,719 --> 01:03:40,800
dear friends Adam and Nick at the mid of the

659
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:44,320
twentieth Century podcast. I just dropped another episode of Radio

660
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,920
Free Chicago is my collab with Jay Burden. You know,

661
01:03:48,039 --> 01:03:49,960
you can find all that stuff plus like the mind

662
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:53,400
Phaser pod on my substack. It's real Thomas seven seven

663
01:03:53,519 --> 01:03:57,000
seven at substack dot com. As I think I mentioned before,

664
01:03:57,199 --> 01:04:02,320
I'm kind of restructuring my content, but my substacks your

665
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:08,119
one stop shop right now. You know, I'm on Instagram,

666
01:04:08,239 --> 01:04:12,079
on Telegram, on YouTube in a lot of places, but

667
01:04:13,159 --> 01:04:16,400
my long form stuff, my podcast content, you can find

668
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:18,599
my substack and they've seen to me the one platform

669
01:04:18,639 --> 01:04:21,840
that doesn't censor me, despite the fact I never violate

670
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:26,199
TOOS anywhere. But that's where you should go for now

671
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:31,920
and just search around. Like on Spotify, you'll find my stuff.

672
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,760
On YouTube, you'll find my stuff. And like I said,

673
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,280
I'm trying to structure things to make it easier to

674
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,000
find all of my shit. So moving forward this summer,

675
01:04:41,239 --> 01:04:44,239
we'll get that done, all right, Thank you.

676
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:45,719
Speaker 1: Talking a couple of days