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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. In May nineteen ninety six, two skilled backcountry leaders,
Speaker 6: Lolly Winans and Julie Williams entered Virginia's Shenandoah National Park
Speaker 6: for a week long backcountry camping trip. The free spirit
Speaker 6: and remarkable young couple had met and fallen in love
Speaker 6: with the previous summer while working at a world renowned
Speaker 6: outdoor program for women. During their final days in the park,
Speaker 6: they descended the narrow remnants of a trail and pitched
Speaker 6: their tent in a hidden spot. After the pair didn't
Speaker 6: return home as planned, park rangers found a scene of
Speaker 6: horror at their campsite, their tent slashed open, their beloved
Speaker 6: dog missing, and both women dead in their sleeping bags.
Speaker 6: The unsolved murders of Winans and Williams continued to haunt
Speaker 6: all who had encountered them or knew their story. When
Speaker 6: award winning journalist and outdoors expert Catherine Miles begins looking
Speaker 6: into the case, he discovers conflicting evidence, mismatched timelines, and
Speaker 6: details that just don't add up. With unprecedented access to
Speaker 6: crucial crime scene forensics and key witnesses, and with the
Speaker 6: growing sense of both mission and obsession, she begins to
Speaker 6: uncover the truth. An innocent man, Miles is convinced has
Speaker 6: been under suspicion for decades, while the true culprit is
Speaker 6: a known serial killer. If only authorities would take a
Speaker 6: closer look. Intimate, page turning, and brilliantly reported, Trailed is
Speaker 6: a love story and a call to justice, and a
Speaker 6: searching and urgent plea to make wilderness a safe place
Speaker 6: for women. The book we're featuring this evening is Trailed,
Speaker 6: One Woman's Quest to solve the Shenandoah Murders, with my
Speaker 6: special guest, journalist and author Katherine Miles. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 6: and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 3: Katherine Miles, and thank you for having me.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Let's talk about as you do.
Speaker 6: Right in the very beginning of your book, you talk
Speaker 6: about August two thousand and one, and you're a professor
Speaker 6: and you find yourself at Unity College in Central Maine.
Speaker 6: Tell us about Unity College and what you find there
Speaker 6: in regards to the memories of Lully and Julie.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, Unity College was such a wonderful special place.
Speaker 7: I had arrived there when I was twenty seven years old.
Speaker 7: It was my first college teaching job. I had a
Speaker 7: really sort of vested in our tulated interest in environmental
Speaker 7: justice and environmental studies, and that was really the backbone
Speaker 7: of this little college. It was a very intimate place.
Speaker 7: About five hundred undergraduates all were there because they wanted
Speaker 7: to study some aspect of the outdoors, and it really
Speaker 7: was a community in the best sense, and the relationships
Speaker 7: there were very long lasting. Lolly Winans had been a
Speaker 7: student there when she was murdered in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 7: and it was immediately obvious to me from the moment
Speaker 7: I arrived at the college, not only what an impact
Speaker 7: she had left on the community there and just how
Speaker 7: cherished she had been, but also just how deeply her
Speaker 7: murder continued to affect that entire community.
Speaker 6: So what do you find out about Lollly Winings.
Speaker 7: You know, she and her partner, Julie Williams, were both
Speaker 7: very skilled outdoor leaders. Lollie had grown up in Gross Pointe, Michigan,
Speaker 7: to a very affluent family. She had also been a
Speaker 7: sexual assault survivor and had really found a sense of
Speaker 7: strength and security and sort of therapeutic rebirth, if you will,
Speaker 7: with backpacking and outdoor leadership. She had arrived at Unity
Speaker 7: planning to create an outdoor wilderness program.
Speaker 3: For other sexual assault survivors.
Speaker 7: She was doing an internship at a really wonderful outdoor
Speaker 7: organization called Woodswomen when she met Julie. The two of
Speaker 7: them fell in love, and they both had already accomplished
Speaker 7: so much in terms of social justice, volunteering, outdoor leadership
Speaker 7: when they had met at the very young age of
Speaker 7: twenty four and twenty two, respectively.
Speaker 6: Tell us about Julie Williams.
Speaker 7: Julie grew up in Minnesota to a very tight knit
Speaker 7: family whose Catholic faith was very important and continues to
Speaker 7: be very important. She very early on developed a real
Speaker 7: interest in social justice issues. She was fluent in space,
Speaker 7: and while she was a high school student, she worked
Speaker 7: as an interpreter for domestic assault survivors. She also was
Speaker 7: a sexual assault survivor as well. She was an introvert
Speaker 7: to Lally's extra version, so they were a really great
Speaker 7: sort of yin and yang partnership in that. And she
Speaker 7: also was a geologist by training. She had done a
Speaker 7: lot of backcountry work in northern Minnesota on Native American reservations.
Speaker 7: She had worked in Central and South America and Europe
Speaker 7: as well, and she had also arrived at Woods Women
Speaker 7: with an interest in becoming an outdoor leader.
Speaker 6: This is quite important to the story obviously, but what
Speaker 6: we're in the nineties and at this college, and a
Speaker 6: big issue running through this book as well. In the story,
Speaker 6: it was the attitudes about gay and lesbian and transgender
Speaker 6: at that time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I really appreciate you asking that question.
Speaker 7: I think we tend to forget now in twenty twenty
Speaker 7: two how difficult it was to be LGBTQ plus in
Speaker 7: the nineties. This murder, which took place in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 7: was three years before the murder of Matthew Shepherd, which
Speaker 7: is a case I think a lot of people are
Speaker 7: familiar with. You know, it was an era, as I
Speaker 7: say in the book, when you know, Olympic swimmer Greg
Speaker 7: Luganis had come out and not to a positive public appearance,
Speaker 7: and so I think for a lot of people, keeping
Speaker 7: your sexuality very hidden was still very very important, and
Speaker 7: it was not a safe place to come out, as
Speaker 7: we learn later in the book. You know, I think
Speaker 7: tragically Lolly and Julie didn't know how well received they
Speaker 7: would have been by their closest friends and family had
Speaker 7: they had the chance to come out to them then,
Speaker 7: but certainly in terms of the larger culture of America,
Speaker 7: it was not a safe space, and so they, I think,
Speaker 7: like a lot.
Speaker 3: Of couples, kept their sexuality very hidden.
Speaker 6: Tell us about how they both came to Unity College
Speaker 6: and their stay there.
Speaker 7: Lollly had bounced around a fair amount. She you know,
Speaker 7: was this sort of free spirit. She loved the grateful Dead.
Speaker 7: She you know, kind of wandered a little bit, which
Speaker 7: I think a lot of Unity students did. But once
Speaker 7: she found that calling of really wanting to work in
Speaker 7: the world of what we now call adventure therapy, she
Speaker 7: started looking for schools that really would set her up
Speaker 7: in a place where she could sort of immediately start
Speaker 7: doing that kind of work, and that was really one
Speaker 7: of the articulated specialties of Unity. That's what brought her there,
Speaker 7: and she really thrived at that campus. And when I
Speaker 7: arrived in two thousand and one, that was abundantly obvious
Speaker 7: to me. You know, the college had an Outdoor Leadership
Speaker 7: Award that.
Speaker 3: Was in her memory.
Speaker 7: Every year, there's a large stone fireplace and the welcome
Speaker 7: center that was dedicated to her. And so the lasting
Speaker 7: impact she had there was really significant. When she was
Speaker 7: a student there, Julie would come over and visit. Julie
Speaker 7: took some outdoor leadership classes and a wilderness first responder
Speaker 7: class as well, and so it really was I think
Speaker 7: home in the sense of a larger community for both
Speaker 7: of them, and for Lally certainly, I think it was
Speaker 7: one of the first time she really truly felt like
Speaker 7: she had a community around her.
Speaker 6: You didn't leave Unity College until twenty and sixteen. But
Speaker 6: I know this is sort of compressing a lot of
Speaker 6: things quite quickly. But at what point and under what
Speaker 6: circumstances do you get involved in this investigation as you
Speaker 6: find out?
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's a really long story actually, you know,
Speaker 7: I was Lolly and Julie's contemporary. I was the same
Speaker 7: age as Julie, and they were murdered we think the
Speaker 7: weekend of my college graduation, and I really identified with
Speaker 7: them as soon as I had learned about this case.
Speaker 7: I am also a sexual assault survivor, and like Lolly
Speaker 7: and Julie, had really found a sense of strength and
Speaker 7: a way to kind of get back into my body
Speaker 7: by way of backpacking. And so when I learned very
Speaker 7: shortly after the crime that these two outdoor leaders had
Speaker 7: been murdered doing what I loved and what I felt
Speaker 7: most safe doing, it really shattered my sense of security
Speaker 7: in the world wilderness. So I had been aware of
Speaker 7: the case since then, and I was aware when I
Speaker 7: took the job at Unity that that had been Lolly's
Speaker 7: alma mater had she graduated. But then, you know, September
Speaker 7: eleventh occurred, i think during the first week of our
Speaker 7: college class schedule that year, and you know, like the
Speaker 7: rest of the nation, the college was really significantly impacted
Speaker 7: by that event. And then in the spring of two
Speaker 7: thousand and two, then Attorney General John Ashcroft made this
Speaker 7: very public statement at a nationally televised press conference that
Speaker 7: he was going to indict an individual in Lolly and
Speaker 7: Julie's murder, which at that point was almost six years old,
Speaker 7: and he made this very strange conflation between using brand
Speaker 7: new enhanced hate crime legislation to prosecute this case as
Speaker 7: a way to somehow redeem or soothe the country in
Speaker 7: the wake of September eleventh, It was a very strange
Speaker 7: of these two events, and it brought the national spotlight
Speaker 7: right back to the college and we were inundated with
Speaker 7: reporters and journalists who were coming now to investigate what
Speaker 7: had all of a sudden become the first federal hate crime.
Speaker 3: In the nation.
Speaker 7: And seeing that impact and seeing the way that it
Speaker 7: brought up so much sort of painful memories and also
Speaker 7: hope in the community was really arresting for me, especially
Speaker 7: as a brand new and very young professor.
Speaker 6: When you talk about Ashcroft, and when you spoke to
Speaker 6: people later they spoke of it as a just political theater.
Speaker 6: Was that part of the reason why you knew that
Speaker 6: some of the more important, obviously more important facts about
Speaker 6: their lives and the crime and the killer would rather
Speaker 6: be overshadowed by this political theater and this issue that
Speaker 6: Ashcroft was trying to make some kind of political hay with.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I think that realization was a long time
Speaker 7: in coming. Elli and Julie's case had been politicized from
Speaker 7: the very beginning. They were very publicly outed by a
Speaker 7: Presbyterian minister who had worked with Julie while Julie was
Speaker 7: living outside of the University of Vermont, and on the
Speaker 7: day of their funeral, they were very publicly outed in
Speaker 7: the national media because this woman, who was part of
Speaker 7: an lgbt Q rights community, had publicly petitioned Janet Reno
Speaker 7: to treat this as a hate crime then and so,
Speaker 7: as I write in the book, the family and friends
Speaker 7: of Lollie and Julie learned of their relationship and their
Speaker 7: sexual orientation literally an hour before their funeral.
Speaker 3: And it was a really jarring moment for them.
Speaker 7: And at that point the family felt like they had
Speaker 7: been very politicized. Certainly at Unity College in the spring
Speaker 7: of two thousand and two, no one really understood how
Speaker 7: it was that Lollie's case had anything to do with
Speaker 7: September eleventh.
Speaker 3: That didn't make any sense to us.
Speaker 7: It wasn't until much later when I began my formal
Speaker 7: investigation at the case and talked to some of the
Speaker 7: lead investigators who they themselves felt really blindsided by John
Speaker 7: Ashcroft's announcement, which came as a complete surprise to them.
Speaker 7: And then I really started thinking like, Okay, well, if
Speaker 7: the investigators themselves, if the prosecutors themselves weren't viewing this
Speaker 7: case in this way, then why was the leader of
Speaker 7: the Justice Department.
Speaker 6: So at what point do you talk to these people
Speaker 6: or get access to these people? And you talk about
Speaker 6: that you went to the Richmond FBI office was and
Speaker 6: met up with d Rybinski, public affairs officer, and another
Speaker 6: person named Scott. What was that meeting like and how
Speaker 6: did you get access to this information? Tell us about
Speaker 6: that process.
Speaker 7: Sure, So an individual, obviously in two thousand and two
Speaker 7: was indicted by John Ashcroft.
Speaker 3: His name is Daryl David Rice.
Speaker 7: And over the years that indict me which had reached
Speaker 7: jury selection, was very quietly dismissed, And it was very
Speaker 7: quietly dismissed through a process in the justice system that's
Speaker 7: called without prejudice. And basically what that means is we
Speaker 7: still think this is the guy, but we don't have
Speaker 7: quite enough evidence to ensure that we're going to have
Speaker 7: a successful prosecution. And so the case was dismissed, but
Speaker 7: it can be brought back at any time. And so
Speaker 7: currently Darryl Rice is the only or possibly one of
Speaker 7: two individuals who are currently in the state of what
Speaker 7: is ultimately double jeopardy for a federal capital case in
Speaker 7: the country right now.
Speaker 3: So that had all happened.
Speaker 7: Meanwhile, I had left Unity College and was writing full
Speaker 7: time as a trail correspondent for Outside Magazine when the
Speaker 7: FBI made again a very public announcement on the twentieth
Speaker 7: anniversary that they were seeking information to close this case.
Speaker 3: At that point was an.
Speaker 7: Obvious sort of journalistic concern for Outside Magazine, and so
Speaker 7: I had pitched it to my editor there, and I
Speaker 7: was really curious about the language. There's usually boilerplate language
Speaker 7: that the FBI uses, which says something like we're looking
Speaker 7: for information that will lead to the successful arrest, indictment,
Speaker 7: and conviction of an individual, and they had left the
Speaker 7: first part of that out and they were like, we're
Speaker 7: just seeking evidence, looking for the conviction of an individual.
Speaker 7: And what seemed very clear to me when I watched
Speaker 7: a few interviews with the lead investigator at that office
Speaker 7: was they were still completely convinced that it was Daryl Rice,
Speaker 7: and I went into the story thinking that they must
Speaker 7: be right, you know, because the justice system works, and so,
Speaker 7: you know, trained professionals had done their job, they had
Speaker 7: found the right guy. They just needed that one little
Speaker 7: thing to kind of get them over the hump. And
Speaker 7: so I approached the story from that angle and had
Speaker 7: contacted the FBI. And I think the FBI probably saw
Speaker 7: in my coverage an opportunity to do some good pr
Speaker 7: in terms of both the evidence response collection teams, the
Speaker 7: forensic labs, the sheer investigations that they do. And so
Speaker 7: after a lot of back and forth, they granted me
Speaker 7: really fantastic access not only to their forensic lab at Quantuco,
Speaker 7: but also agreed to take me to the murder scene
Speaker 7: itself with the lead investigators.
Speaker 3: In the case.
Speaker 6: You say, initially you learned things that the back country
Speaker 6: as they call them, investigations are much different. And why
Speaker 6: tell us some of the things you learned about the
Speaker 6: differences in the kinds of crime scenes and crime scene
Speaker 6: analysis as a result the differences, and I think this
Speaker 6: is something.
Speaker 7: That we as Americans don't really think a lot about,
Speaker 7: and that's the training that homicide investigators, whether they're federal, state,
Speaker 7: or local receive and it's actually a really codified training
Speaker 7: that takes place at a training center down in Atlanta, Georgia,
Speaker 7: and they all basically receive the same training about how
Speaker 7: to investigate the homicide. And as I explained in the book,
Speaker 7: the process is very sort of urban centric, and so
Speaker 7: they're taught that the first thing they should do is
Speaker 7: secure the premises, you know, tape the door, get a
Speaker 7: sense of the building as a whole and.
Speaker 3: Who came and went, you know.
Speaker 7: But none of that makes sense in a back country
Speaker 7: crime where you don't know how wide the crime scene is,
Speaker 7: you don't know whether a rock is a rock or
Speaker 7: a murder weapon. You don't know to what degree animals
Speaker 7: have disrupted things, or even the weather, and so it's
Speaker 7: a completely different entity. And I think that's part of
Speaker 7: why the closure rate for these backcountry crimes are the
Speaker 7: lowest in the nation.
Speaker 6: Now, you meet a woman named Jane Collins, and so
Speaker 6: what do you and her decide to do? And tell
Speaker 6: us about that decision and that trip.
Speaker 7: So I had, as I said earlier, been offered access
Speaker 7: to the murder scene, and the SBI had curated this
Speaker 7: really impressive team of folks who included the lead investigator
Speaker 7: at the time, and that was Collins, as well as
Speaker 7: the lead investigators for the National Park Service. And one
Speaker 7: of the things that I think is really important to
Speaker 7: note is that any crime that occurs on National Park
Speaker 7: Service land, whether it's urban or you know, and the
Speaker 7: actual national park is the joint purview of the FBI
Speaker 7: and the National Park Service law enforcement rangers. And those
Speaker 7: are two radically different entities. They're different cultures, they're different training,
Speaker 7: they're different missions in a lot of ways. And so
Speaker 7: what was also very clear to me from the start
Speaker 7: was that there was a big culture clash happening here.
Speaker 7: And the way that a National Park Service law enforcement
Speaker 7: ranger would approach a crime is different than the way
Speaker 7: that an FBI law enforcement agent would approach the crime.
Speaker 7: I should say that, you know, the investigators that I
Speaker 7: met with that day had a really great relationship with
Speaker 7: one another, and it was very clear that they respected
Speaker 7: one another. But it was also very clear from interviewing
Speaker 7: that there was a lot of frustration on both sides
Speaker 7: about how this case had been handled.
Speaker 6: One of the first things that you notice or that
Speaker 6: you discover when you go to the crime scene itself.
Speaker 6: Is when you look at the area that was determined
Speaker 6: to be where Julie and Lawley set up their tent,
Speaker 6: tell us about just your first impression's obvious conclusions.
Speaker 7: And as as I say in the book, it was
Speaker 7: really sort of anxiety producing to go to this scene
Speaker 7: where I knew this incredibly brutal murder and sexual assault
Speaker 7: had happened. And I went in with a fair amount
Speaker 7: of trepidation, even though I knew I was going completely
Speaker 7: flanked by trade law enforcement officials. But you know, a
Speaker 7: few things really struck me when I visited. And the
Speaker 7: first thing is was that this crime scene was a
Speaker 7: backcountry campsite.
Speaker 3: And when I say campsite.
Speaker 7: I think it's really important for people to understand that
Speaker 7: this was not like a state park KOA pull your
Speaker 7: car up to a place, you know, where there's a
Speaker 7: picnic table and a fire pit. They had picked this
Speaker 7: site because it was so hidden. It was well off
Speaker 7: of a trail, and it was well off of a
Speaker 7: disused trail that hardly anyone in the park ever knew about.
Speaker 7: And so the first thing that struck me was was
Speaker 7: how sort of fundamentally impossible it would have been to
Speaker 7: find them if you had gone looking for them. And
Speaker 7: in fact, in the days after they were reported missing,
Speaker 7: multiple rangers on a search for the women walked past
Speaker 7: the campsite and didn't even notice it. And so that
Speaker 7: was very haunting and chilling to me, was how was
Speaker 7: how it was that the murder or even found them.
Speaker 7: But then the other thing I talk about in the
Speaker 7: book too, is just how surprised I was by what
Speaker 7: a beautiful, peaceful place it was and the tranquility, and
Speaker 7: not only had they picked that of the ideal spot,
Speaker 7: but as I was there now, suddenly for me personally,
Speaker 7: the horror of the scene kind of abated a little bit,
Speaker 7: and I was just really overcome with this sort of
Speaker 7: appreciation and admiration for these two remarkable individuals, and in
Speaker 7: that moment they really became kind of fully formed humans
Speaker 7: for me, and I kind of found myself really rededicating
Speaker 7: myself to the importance of telling their story as well
Speaker 7: as telling the story of their deaths.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about what actually you find out about what
Speaker 6: happens in this attack and what again you can surmise,
Speaker 6: hence the title trailed, but what exactly you can surmise
Speaker 6: from the evidence that was given to you, and you
Speaker 6: had access to tell us about the murders.
Speaker 7: So Julie's father had reported the two women missing after
Speaker 7: they were overdue for several key appointments, and what resulted
Speaker 7: was then a multi day search which began kind of casually,
Speaker 7: which was appropriate. You know, National Park Service rangers very
Speaker 7: often receive reports of overdue people. Ninety nine percent of
Speaker 7: the time that people are fine, they just forgot to
Speaker 7: mention to someone they were going to go somewhere else,
Speaker 7: or that they were going to extend their trip a
Speaker 7: few days. But as the days went on, it became
Speaker 7: very apparent that these two women had not done that.
Speaker 7: And then when some park visitors noticed this kind of
Speaker 7: frenzied golden retriever mix, it became very obvious, you know,
Speaker 7: that something very tragic had happened to Lolly and Julie
Speaker 7: that because they never would have left or certainly abandoned
Speaker 7: their dogs. And so then the search really intensified, and
Speaker 7: it wasn't until several days later that their tent was
Speaker 7: found by a ranger, which is very peculiar to me too,
Speaker 7: and I talk about this in the book. You know,
Speaker 7: it was dusk was settling several other rangers had walked
Speaker 7: right by the site. This person keyed in on it,
Speaker 7: and then what he and his partner found was just
Speaker 7: undeniably horrific.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 7: It was an incredibly sophisticated, well planned, and brutal crime.
Speaker 7: And as I talk about later in the book, I
Speaker 7: think the nature of this crime, as many investigators suggested
Speaker 7: to me and forensic psychologists suggested to me, this was
Speaker 7: the work of a trained and sophisticated killer. This was
Speaker 7: not a crime of passion, This was not the person's
Speaker 7: first violent crime.
Speaker 3: This was someone who really knew what they were doing.
Speaker 6: Now, how do the police proceed or the rangers proceed
Speaker 6: in the FBI, how does everyone proceed? You say that
Speaker 6: this crime scene was hampered by rain and just being
Speaker 6: out in the woods, So tell us how they proceed
Speaker 6: in this investigation.
Speaker 7: And so by the time this crime scene has been found,
Speaker 7: the women are dead for and this becomes a big
Speaker 7: issue later on in the case the date of death.
Speaker 7: But certainly the women have been dead for at least
Speaker 7: three or four days, and so what had happened in
Speaker 7: the interim is not clear. What you know, had tajed
Speaker 7: the dog, maybe dug through some things we don't know
Speaker 7: had other animals.
Speaker 3: Certainly we know that it had rained very heavily.
Speaker 7: And so when the rangers and the FBI arrive, there's
Speaker 7: this fog of war happening where first of all, the park,
Speaker 7: which is in its busiest season, has to decide if
Speaker 7: and how and when they're going to announce that this
Speaker 7: very brutal double murder has occurred in the park and
Speaker 7: that a murderer may still be in the park. And
Speaker 7: then they also have to decide how they're going to
Speaker 7: deal with the evidence. And this is where the decision
Speaker 7: making isn't just problematic, it's you know, I don't even
Speaker 7: think reprehensible is too strong of a word to use.
Speaker 7: That some of these decisions not only put park goers
Speaker 7: at incredible risk, but also really hampered the investigation and
Speaker 7: the ability to do DNA forensic testing.
Speaker 6: So you talk about how Dennis David Rice somehow becomes
Speaker 6: on the radar of these investigators, tell us how that happens.
Speaker 7: So, Daryl David Race was a young man, a computer programmer.
Speaker 7: His father had a house right outside of the park,
Speaker 7: and Daryl Rice would spend a lot of time cycling
Speaker 7: in the park. He had by his own admission, some
Speaker 7: very significant mental health issues, bipolar schizophrenia, which you know,
Speaker 7: sometimes he could manage with medication and other times he couldn't.
Speaker 7: And in the spring and summer of nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 7: his life had begun to completely unravel. He had lost
Speaker 7: his job, he was really battling to deal with these
Speaker 7: mental illnesses. And in July of ninety seven, he had
Speaker 7: been up for several days, he had been smoking marijuana.
Speaker 7: He was again just really unraveling mentally, and he was
Speaker 7: driving his truck through the park. He spied a female
Speaker 7: cyclist and he shouted obscenities at her.
Speaker 3: He ran her off the road.
Speaker 7: He threw a soda can at her, and she was
Speaker 7: understandably frightened. And certainly, at no time do I ever
Speaker 7: want to seem like I'm excusing what he did.
Speaker 3: It was an assault. There's no other way to talk
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 7: When this happened and it was eventually reported to the Rangers,
Speaker 7: the Rangers immediately suspected that Rice had committed the May
Speaker 7: ninety six murder of Lolly and Julie, and so at
Speaker 7: that point their focus really became kind of laser centered
Speaker 7: on Darryl Rice to the exclusion almost of everyone else.
Speaker 6: You also say there was an investigation of the Colonial
Speaker 6: Parkway eighty six murders of Kathy Thomas and Becky Dawski.
Speaker 6: How are they at all connected?
Speaker 7: That is a great question that remains such a question
Speaker 7: and such a topic of debate among all of us.
Speaker 7: Kathy Thomas and Becky Dowski another strong competent lesbian couple,
Speaker 7: very brutally murdered, also on National Park Service land and
Speaker 7: in a very similar way. One of the things that
Speaker 7: has always interested people is the Colonial Parkway murders.
Speaker 3: And depending on.
Speaker 7: How you consider them, there were multiple, you know, some
Speaker 7: people debate it, but let's just say five or six
Speaker 7: right now. People who were murdered considered the same killer,
Speaker 7: the Colonial Parkway killer.
Speaker 3: Several of them had.
Speaker 7: Been found with their windows rolled down, their driver's side
Speaker 7: windows rolled down, and a wallet open, and that had
Speaker 7: suggested that a law enforcement official or someone posing as
Speaker 7: law enforcement had been responsible for the crime.
Speaker 3: Four of the.
Speaker 7: Rangers who worked the Colonial Parkway murder had then been
Speaker 7: transferred to Shenandoah National Park and were also working the
Speaker 7: Shenandoah murder, and some people, including the FBI, immediately latched
Speaker 7: onto that, and in fact, at least two of the
Speaker 7: rangers of the flour were very strong suspects for the
Speaker 7: FBI in the months immediately after Lolly and Julie's death.
Speaker 6: Tell me about some of the people that you meet
Speaker 6: and have access to and answer questions for you and
Speaker 6: help you in this investigation and in this book.
Speaker 7: And this is the most wonderful part of being a journalist,
Speaker 7: especially this kind of journalism, is the sheer generosity of experts.
Speaker 7: And I talked to forensic psychologists. I talked to forensic anthropologists.
Speaker 7: I talked to former and president FBI and National Park
Speaker 7: Service investigators. I talked to anybody who would pick up
Speaker 7: the phone and talk to me to kind of figure
Speaker 7: out either what I needed to know about this case,
Speaker 7: or why cases don't get solved, or who they thought
Speaker 7: about the person who had accomplished this murder. And what
Speaker 7: I thought was really interesting was, again and again and again,
Speaker 7: other than the two investigators most intimately involved with this
Speaker 7: initial investigation, no one wanted to point a finger at
Speaker 7: Darryl Wright.
Speaker 6: Tell us about the Innocence project, and we're jumping ahead
Speaker 6: a little bit, but at least about the investigation into
Speaker 6: you needed to know why Dennis David Rice was accused
Speaker 6: and what was the evidence against them. So you took
Speaker 6: a look at bad evidence, tell us about that.
Speaker 7: And because Daryl Rice's case was a federal case, I
Speaker 7: had access to a lot of documentation that I wouldn't
Speaker 7: have had otherwise. There's a concept in legal cases known
Speaker 7: as discovery, where the defense and the prosecution must exchange
Speaker 7: their evidence with one another. Because this case had gone
Speaker 7: as far as jury selection, all of that discovery had
Speaker 7: already occurred. And so just by you know, contacting the
Speaker 7: National Archives, I already had access to boxes of evidence
Speaker 7: that journalists normally don't get.
Speaker 3: And as I was.
Speaker 7: Looking at that, it was it became very clear to
Speaker 7: me that the case against Rice was so very thin
Speaker 7: and was based only on the most circumstantial evidence. And
Speaker 7: at that point I really had to begin to question
Speaker 7: myself and the suppositions that I had come in with,
Speaker 7: you know, which, as I said earlier, was assuming that
Speaker 7: the Justice Department had the right guy, because I I
Speaker 7: think we all want to think that the Justice Department
Speaker 7: has the right guy. But as soon as I started
Speaker 7: going through those court files, it just it was so
Speaker 7: obvious to me that they no matter how hard they tried,
Speaker 7: they could not find any evidence that Rice had been
Speaker 7: at the crime scene. And so at that point I
Speaker 7: really began to change my perspective and my approach, and
Speaker 7: I contacted Deirdre Enright, who is the head of the
Speaker 7: Virginia Innocence Project and who had also served on this
Speaker 7: all star legal team representing Darryl Rice, and she eventually
Speaker 7: gave me access to what amounted to about twenty two
Speaker 7: boxes of evidence which she had found because it became
Speaker 7: very clear to her during the pre trial that the
Speaker 7: prosecution was not in fact making available to her all
Speaker 7: of the evidence, and in fact had been keeping a
Speaker 7: very large storage unit full of evidence and had been
Speaker 7: keeping it from the defense.
Speaker 3: So I hadn't seen it before.
Speaker 7: En Wright hadn't seen it before she found it, got
Speaker 7: demanded access to photocopied everything in it, and so then
Speaker 7: all of a sudden, I had access to twenty two
Speaker 7: boxes of evidence, which is something that you just wouldn't
Speaker 7: have happened otherwise, and certainly made reporting on this case
Speaker 7: much much easier and more detailed for me.
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Speaker 6: had twenty two boxes of information provided by dedra enright,
Speaker 6: and this would be obvious to everyone you spoke to
Speaker 6: in yourself when you analyze this information that, of course
Speaker 6: Dennis Rice wasn't the person that was the culprit in
Speaker 6: the murders of Julie and Lawley, but you also found
Speaker 6: information that was very interesting when there was a controversy
Speaker 6: over the time of death, the actual day of the death,
Speaker 6: and that lined up with it looked like the police
Speaker 6: trying to make the Dennis Rice very fit. Well, what
Speaker 6: did you find in the process regarding the actual in
Speaker 6: your mind killer?
Speaker 7: And this date of death becomes very important because the
Speaker 7: FBI cannot place Darryl Rice in the park on the
Speaker 7: day that the medical examiner determined that the two women died.
Speaker 7: The medical examiner places the date four days earlier than
Speaker 7: what the FBI decides to go with. And this was
Speaker 7: just shocking to me, because there had never been a question.
Speaker 7: And I found a series of internal memos in the
Speaker 7: FBI that had that had acknowledged, you know, the date
Speaker 7: that the medical examiner had determined, and they had said,
Speaker 7: you know, this is for internal use only.
Speaker 3: Do not release this date to anyone.
Speaker 7: And even in the storage locker there was a large
Speaker 7: sort of poster board that was hanging in the poster
Speaker 7: in there that said, you know, date of death, and
Speaker 7: it was the same day. But as soon as they
Speaker 7: arrest Rice, we know that Rice is in Baltimore on
Speaker 7: the day of the women's death, and so that excludes
Speaker 7: him as a suspect.
Speaker 3: And so all of a sudden, there's this.
Speaker 7: Very strange creep that begins to happen, which I can't
Speaker 7: account for, and which no one has been able to
Speaker 7: sort of satisfactorily explain, certainly from an ethical and a
Speaker 7: moral perspective.
Speaker 6: You say that they can't explain it. But so the
Speaker 6: thing is is that once you realize that, what is
Speaker 6: your next step? And who are a couple of the
Speaker 6: people that aid you in this further investigation?
Speaker 7: And it's funny, you know, earlier you said you use
Speaker 7: the word obsessive to describe by. Initially, I sort of
Speaker 7: rankled at that, and for a while it was part
Speaker 7: of the subtitle of the book, and I kept trying
Speaker 7: to tell the publisher to take it out because I was.
Speaker 3: Like, that's I'm not obsessive.
Speaker 7: But one place where I absolutely acknowledged that I became
Speaker 7: ridiculously obsessive was about this date of death. And I
Speaker 7: was really curious, first of all, about how medical examiners
Speaker 7: make this determination. And it's actually quite sophisticated, and the
Speaker 7: most reliable way they do is by looking at potassium
Speaker 7: levels in the eye that is not affected by things
Speaker 7: like temperature, precipitation, insects, things like that.
Speaker 3: So I did this very deep dive.
Speaker 7: Into the forensic work that these medical examiners do, and
Speaker 7: I still couldn't find any way of suggesting that the
Speaker 7: date of death was four days later than the FBI
Speaker 7: wanted to say. And so then I also contacted a
Speaker 7: series of forensic anthropologists who run what your listeners may
Speaker 7: be familiar with. They're called body farms, and these are
Speaker 7: at universities where you know, people can donate their bodies
Speaker 7: to so that scientists can study things like decomposition, and
Speaker 7: you know, this grizzly stuff that's really hard to look
Speaker 7: at but also really important to know. And so one
Speaker 7: well meaning forensic anthropologist has she justed, and I think
Speaker 7: very facetiously that if I really wanted to establish the
Speaker 7: date of death, what I should do is go get
Speaker 7: a couple of large bone in pork growths and kind
Speaker 7: of approximate the murder scene to see what happened. So
Speaker 7: I did, and it was disgusting, and the maggot activity.
Speaker 3: Will be I think the nightmares that haunt me until
Speaker 3: the day that I died.
Speaker 6: And so it is, as you say, unscientific. But did
Speaker 6: it prove anything to you whatsoever?
Speaker 3: I mean, it certainly just seemed to reaffirm the original
Speaker 3: medical examiners findings, you know, I You know, medical examiners
Speaker 3: look at decomposition in a multiple ways.
Speaker 7: They look at things like discoloration, they look at bloating,
Speaker 7: they look at insect activity, they look again at tassium levels.
Speaker 7: None of this suggested that Lolly and Julie died any
Speaker 7: day other than the day that was in the report.
Speaker 7: And certainly, you know, my very unscientific, disgusting work experiment
Speaker 7: certainly seem to prove that as well. And again this
Speaker 7: is so important because not only does the FBI have
Speaker 7: no DNA evidence that can link Rice, no eyewitnesses that
Speaker 7: link Rice. They know without a doubt that he's not
Speaker 7: at the park, He's nowhere near the park on this
Speaker 7: particular day, and so it just it really makes their
Speaker 7: case against him impossible.
Speaker 6: Are you and even further and did DNA analysis? You say,
Speaker 6: there's so much development in DNA analysis and techniques since
Speaker 6: its inception, and everybody every few years when there is
Speaker 6: some new developments is excited about the chance of retesting.
Speaker 6: So those tests were done, and so it is conclusive
Speaker 6: that it's not Dennis Rice. But you say that when
Speaker 6: I say conclusive, there has been development in DNA analysis.
Speaker 6: And so you talk about a term and I don't
Speaker 6: have it in front of me, heratolplasmi, HETEROPLASMI. So explain
Speaker 6: that phenomena to us.
Speaker 7: Sure, And you know, I think one of the things
Speaker 7: that's really interesting that's happening right now is the way
Speaker 7: in which forensic evidence is being called into question. And rightfully,
Speaker 7: there are a lot of questions both in terms of
Speaker 7: the accuracy and the validity of forensic evidence and also
Speaker 7: the ethics involved with using, for instance, you know, the
Speaker 7: forensic genetics like twenty three in meters, and I talk
Speaker 7: a lot about all of that in the book, and
Speaker 7: certainly things like you know, bitemark hair analysis, things like
Speaker 7: that that used to be gold standards have been seriously
Speaker 7: called into question, and you know, cases have been so
Speaker 7: called closed based on that, and we've never gone back
Speaker 7: to make sure that the person that was convicted based
Speaker 7: on this faulty forensic evidence isn't fact guilty. So that's
Speaker 7: a huge social justice problem for this country. It's also true,
Speaker 7: as you say that that DNA evidence has become increasingly
Speaker 7: more sophisticated in terms of our ability to analyze it.
Speaker 7: Most of the forensic analysis that was done in this
Speaker 7: particular case was done between nineteen ninety.
Speaker 3: Six and two thousand and two.
Speaker 7: Two thousand and four, early on, the analysis available to
Speaker 7: the FBI was exclusively what's called mitochondrial DNA analysis. And
Speaker 7: what that does is it takes a look at eight
Speaker 7: hundred positions on DNA. So it would hold up eight
Speaker 7: hundred positions of my DNA next to eight hundred positions
Speaker 7: of your DNA, and we would go through and we
Speaker 7: would just see how many of those eight hundred match.
Speaker 7: The FBI's policy is that if there are fewer.
Speaker 3: Than let's see, what's the right word to put this.
Speaker 7: The FBI's policy is that if there are fewer than
Speaker 7: two differences, So say our DNA matches at seven hundred
Speaker 7: and ninety eight places and there are just two positions
Speaker 7: where it doesn't match, that, they cannot exclude a suspect
Speaker 7: based on that. And so not only can they not
Speaker 7: exclude a person based on that, but the FBI's basic
Speaker 7: policy is this person should still continue to be a
Speaker 7: suspect and until this person can otherwise be ruled out.
Speaker 7: So in two thousand and two, a known serial killer,
Speaker 7: Mark Avonnetz, had kidnapped a young woman who very heroically
Speaker 7: managed to escape, and what resulted was a high speed
Speaker 7: chase that resulted in avonnets taking his own life. At
Speaker 7: that point, Avonetz became a suspect in other cases involving
Speaker 7: young women, especially other cases involving young women in Virginia.
Speaker 7: Lolly and Julie's murder was one of eight murders in
Speaker 7: this very rural part of central Virginia over the course
Speaker 7: of about eighteen months, which is part of why so
Speaker 7: many forensic psychologists had thought that this might be the
Speaker 7: work of a serial killer.
Speaker 3: So after E.
Speaker 7: Hoonness takes his own life, the FBI runs his DNA
Speaker 7: against DNA found at the crime scene, and in that
Speaker 7: eight hundred point analysis, it's different in only one place.
Speaker 7: And in the one place where it's different, there's a
Speaker 7: very common phenomenon known as heteroplasmy So if I took,
Speaker 7: for instance, two of your hairs and I set them
Speaker 7: side by side in this eight hundred place array, there's
Speaker 7: about a thirty five percent chance that your two hairs
Speaker 7: would be different in that location. So at that point,
Speaker 7: you know everything. An FBI policy said, you've got to
Speaker 7: keep a Hoonness as a suspect.
Speaker 3: You've got to rerun this and instead.
Speaker 7: At that point, the FBI stopped running DNA tests against
Speaker 7: ev Honors and kept rerunning them against Rice at that
Speaker 7: point had been excluded because his DNA was so different
Speaker 7: in these eight hundred points.
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Speaker 6: You talk about this advantage, but you also had the
Speaker 6: opportunity to see a lot of them and his signature
Speaker 6: involved with these other crimes. What was interesting to see
Speaker 6: when you thought of the possibility of him being involved
Speaker 6: in Julie and Lolly's murder.
Speaker 3: It's really noteworthy to keep in mind.
Speaker 7: I think that again, Lolly and Julie's murder in the
Speaker 7: spring of ninety six was one of multiple murders of
Speaker 7: young women in the spring of ninety six, And I
Speaker 7: include some maps in the book that show the distribution
Speaker 7: of these murders. It's really noteworthy how close they were,
Speaker 7: and it's also really noteworthy how similar they were.
Speaker 3: In terms of them.
Speaker 7: What we know about Evors from the three murders that
Speaker 7: have been successfully tinned to him is that he had
Speaker 7: a real pensiant for young women, women who had brown hair,
Speaker 7: brown eyes, slight build, that he would abduct them, that
Speaker 7: he would sexually assault them, but sexually assault them using objects.
Speaker 7: If I can say that that he would bind and
Speaker 7: gag the women, and that he tended to wrap their
Speaker 7: bodies and leave them in wilderness settings. All of that,
Speaker 7: of course, sounds exactly like what investigators found at the
Speaker 7: back country campsite where Lolly and Julie were found. And
Speaker 7: so one of the things I lay out in the book.
Speaker 7: Book is a case as best as I can make
Speaker 7: it and as objectively as I can make it for
Speaker 7: the evidence against Rice, the evidence against the Bonnets, and obviously.
Speaker 3: There are other suspects as well.
Speaker 7: And it's really my hope that I've laid it out
Speaker 7: in a way that readers can make their own decisions
Speaker 7: and kind of play armchair sleuth as it was, and
Speaker 7: see who they think did it.
Speaker 6: By the end of the book, you talk about some
Speaker 6: of the things, the way Julie and Lawley were displayed,
Speaker 6: and this marital aid or this vibrator was there part
Speaker 6: of this display, And then interestingly, the search of Ivonitz's place.
Speaker 6: During that search warrant had some very interesting things that
Speaker 6: at least suggested that he was involved, didn't it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there was this very sort of strangely placed displayed
Speaker 7: vibrator right in the middle of the murder scene, which
Speaker 7: investigators immediately decide and I think correctly decided, had been
Speaker 7: what's called staged by the perpetrator, that the perpetrator had
Speaker 7: left it as kind of a calling card, if you will.
Speaker 7: There was also some very disturbing evidence that was also
Speaker 7: found in this hidden storage locker of evidence which also
Speaker 7: suggested that, in addition to being bound and gagged first
Speaker 7: with duct tape and then with their own long underwear,
Speaker 7: that Julie had also been bound with some sort of
Speaker 7: sexual assault like leather restraints that would be very common
Speaker 7: in sort of like a fetish type catalog. What investigators
Speaker 7: found when they entered Avonitz's apartment was nothing short of
Speaker 7: a horror show of incredibly disturbing pornography, and it also
Speaker 7: appears that he liked to keep items, especially underwear, of
Speaker 7: his victims when he was on this high speed Chase.
Speaker 3: He called one of his.
Speaker 7: Sisters, and you know, she asked him some questions, and
Speaker 7: one of the questions was, you know, how many times
Speaker 7: have you done this before? And he told her more
Speaker 7: times than I can count. At one point after his suicide,
Speaker 7: the FBI had brought together this very detailed task force
Speaker 7: with the intention of investigating of on Its for multiple
Speaker 7: other murders in the United States. He kept a very
Speaker 7: disturbing diary that listed the names and addresses of women,
Speaker 7: some of whom I talked to for the book, who
Speaker 7: had met him on online dating sites or things like that.
Speaker 3: But he was pursuing. So we still.
Speaker 7: Don't know what, if any other crimes of on Its perpetrated, because,
Speaker 7: for reasons that have never been explained, the FBI disbanded
Speaker 7: this task force very shortly after it was formed, and
Speaker 7: so there are multiple other cases that had originally been
Speaker 7: suspected as of on Its cases that have never actually
Speaker 7: been pursued by the FBI.
Speaker 3: Beyond that initial sort of tiggy.
Speaker 6: You found interestingly and then you it was confirmed with
Speaker 6: Tim ally, one of your first people that were people
Speaker 6: that led you into this investigation. When you talk to
Speaker 6: him about ivan Its, you were surprised at his reaction.
Speaker 6: What did he have to say and what was his reaction?
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I should say Tim Ali, who was the
Speaker 7: lead investigator for the National Park Service investigation, is first
Speaker 7: of all a first rate ranger and investigator, and was
Speaker 7: an incredibly generous and patient source in this book.
Speaker 3: He and I disagree on this matter.
Speaker 7: I really appreciate the fact that you know, he knows
Speaker 7: full well, but I disagree with him, and he continues
Speaker 7: to be very supportive of me, and I think that's
Speaker 7: a real sign of his character. But you know, but
Speaker 7: what he and other investigators concluded, based on Evonnet's other
Speaker 7: known victims who were teenagers and in some cases very
Speaker 7: young teenagers, was that avon was a pedophile.
Speaker 3: I disagree with that.
Speaker 7: I take the classic definition of ophelia, which is someone
Speaker 7: who has, you know, an obviously abnormal and you know,
Speaker 7: kind of reprehensible sexual interest in young children who are
Speaker 7: not sexually developed. Of ho, it's as primary victims were
Speaker 7: all sexually mature. But that's been a sticking point, and
Speaker 7: I think part of why the federal investigators have been
Speaker 7: so loath to consider a honor and continue to consider Rice.
Speaker 6: Interesting when we go back to the very beginning when
Speaker 6: you walked into Unity College to start teaching there, there
Speaker 6: was a fireplace memorial. Tell us about this memorial at
Speaker 6: the Unity Home.
Speaker 7: You know, Lalie again was such a presence at Unity College,
Speaker 7: and you know, Julie obviously was such a presence at
Speaker 7: her college as well too, and so the community really
Speaker 7: wanted to find ways to memorialize and remember her, and
Speaker 7: so they settled on building this this very beautiful stone fireplace.
Speaker 3: And you know, part of why I really want to call.
Speaker 7: Attention to this in the book is because I think,
Speaker 7: you know, as fans of true crime, it's all too
Speaker 7: easy for us to really want to focus on the perpetrators.
Speaker 7: You know, I think we're understandably fascinated with that kind
Speaker 7: of deviant psychology and what it kind of means to
Speaker 7: us as a culture.
Speaker 3: And I think sometimes along the.
Speaker 7: Way, the victims and the victims friends and families kind
Speaker 7: of get lost in the shuffle. And it's so important
Speaker 7: to me that Lolly and Julie remain the main characters
Speaker 7: in this story and that we really understand the after
Speaker 7: effects and the implications of a murder that continue to
Speaker 7: reverberate twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven years later, you.
Speaker 6: Had the pleasure I guess of I would say pleasure
Speaker 6: of reading the journals. Tell us what you did gain
Speaker 6: by reading those journals.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that was a really actually I would say difficult
Speaker 7: and kind of heartbreaking experience to just sort of see
Speaker 7: the words and the writing of these two young women
Speaker 7: on the page, and to see how many plans they had.
Speaker 7: I mean, again, they were already so accomplished. They had
Speaker 7: been through a tough year in a long distance relationship.
Speaker 7: They had really re committed to their relationship, and again
Speaker 7: committing to a relationship that society was not at all
Speaker 7: prepared to accept, right. So it was a real risk,
Speaker 7: you know, to commit to this relationship, you know, and
Speaker 7: to realize that you might be the target of violence
Speaker 7: because of who you happen to love. And there was
Speaker 7: a lot of that in the journals, and I think
Speaker 7: for me the hardest part of the journals.
Speaker 3: Was just to see them forward looking.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 7: Julie had this fantastic job doing water sampling on Lake Champlain.
Speaker 7: She had begun to apply to graduate schools to study geology.
Speaker 7: Lolly again was getting ready to launch this program for
Speaker 7: sexual assault survivors. You know, everything was lining up for
Speaker 7: these two to continue this remarkable journey they were on,
Speaker 7: and to see that and to realize that they were
Speaker 7: not going to have the opportunity to actualize any of
Speaker 7: that was a really emotionally powerful experience.
Speaker 6: What has been the legacy of the plans that Lollie
Speaker 6: had and they both had.
Speaker 3: That's a great question.
Speaker 7: You know, this organization WOULDS Women, which is where they met,
Speaker 7: was one of the first outdoor experience organizations built with
Speaker 7: gender in mind, and built with rather than a sort
Speaker 7: of hierarchical model of wilderness experience, a very sort of
Speaker 7: holistic model. And certainly the people who founded that organization,
Speaker 7: who went on to become noted outdoor leaders, have i think,
Speaker 7: always held the story of Lolly and Julie quite closely.
Speaker 7: One of them the year after their murder established Take
Speaker 7: Back the Trails, which is a really wonderful national initiative
Speaker 7: that looks to give people of all sorts of different
Speaker 7: subordinate groups, whether it's race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, equal access
Speaker 7: to the wilderness and to really kind of force this
Speaker 7: question about who gets to feel safe in places like
Speaker 7: our national parks and why and that's a question that
Speaker 7: I think we still really need to be confronting today.
Speaker 6: Tell us about the publishing of this book, the publication date,
Speaker 6: and any way that people might take a look at
Speaker 6: other work. I have an author page, for example.
Speaker 7: So the book launched officially on May third. It's published
Speaker 7: by Algonquin Books. I am a huge fan of independent
Speaker 7: booksellers and so I always love it when folks buy
Speaker 7: books there.
Speaker 3: There's a really great website called.
Speaker 7: Indie bound dot com which points you to a number
Speaker 7: of independent booksellers who sell books. And then my author
Speaker 7: page is my name Katherine kat h r Ynmiles dot net,
Speaker 7: and there are links there to events we have associated
Speaker 7: with the book, other writing and my other books as well.
Speaker 6: Albana, thank you so much Katherine Miles for coming on
Speaker 6: and talking about your extraordinary book, Trailed, One Woman's Quest
Speaker 6: to Solve the Shenandoah Murders. Thank you so much for
Speaker 6: this interview Katherine Miles and my pleasure.
Speaker 7: Thank you for calling Julie and Lolly's kiss story into
Speaker 7: the spotlight.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Have a great evening, good night,