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Gasey Bundy, Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK Every 35 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.760 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 36 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:30.040 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 37 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.920 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 38 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:47.719 Good Evening. In May nineteen ninety six, two skilled backcountry leaders, 39 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.760 Lolly Winans and Julie Williams entered Virginia's Shenandoah National Park 40 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:56.120 for a week long backcountry camping trip. The free spirit 41 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:59.519 and remarkable young couple had met and fallen in love 42 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.560 with the previous summer while working at a world renowned 43 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:06.079 outdoor program for women. During their final days in the park, 44 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:08.960 they descended the narrow remnants of a trail and pitched 45 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:11.800 their tent in a hidden spot. After the pair didn't 46 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:15.319 return home as planned, park rangers found a scene of 47 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:19.840 horror at their campsite, their tent slashed open, their beloved 48 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:22.879 dog missing, and both women dead in their sleeping bags. 49 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:26.479 The unsolved murders of Winans and Williams continued to haunt 50 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:29.400 all who had encountered them or knew their story. When 51 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.199 award winning journalist and outdoors expert Catherine Miles begins looking 52 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:38.120 into the case, he discovers conflicting evidence, mismatched timelines, and 53 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:42.520 details that just don't add up. With unprecedented access to 54 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.000 crucial crime scene forensics and key witnesses, and with the 55 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:49.800 growing sense of both mission and obsession, she begins to 56 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:53.879 uncover the truth. An innocent man, Miles is convinced has 57 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:57.639 been under suspicion for decades, while the true culprit is 58 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.840 a known serial killer. If only authorities would take a 59 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:06.240 closer look. Intimate, page turning, and brilliantly reported, Trailed is 60 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.039 a love story and a call to justice, and a 61 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:12.840 searching and urgent plea to make wilderness a safe place 62 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.840 for women. The book we're featuring this evening is Trailed, 63 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:19.639 One Woman's Quest to solve the Shenandoah Murders, with my 64 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:23.840 special guest, journalist and author Katherine Miles. Welcome to the program, 65 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:25.520 and thank you very much for this interview. 66 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:28.199 Katherine Miles, and thank you for having me. 67 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:31.599 Thank you so much. Let's talk about as you do. 68 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.400 Right in the very beginning of your book, you talk 69 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:37.520 about August two thousand and one, and you're a professor 70 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.719 and you find yourself at Unity College in Central Maine. 71 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:44.280 Tell us about Unity College and what you find there 72 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:48.039 in regards to the memories of Lully and Julie. 73 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:51.439 Yeah, you know, Unity College was such a wonderful special place. 74 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.400 I had arrived there when I was twenty seven years old. 75 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.719 It was my first college teaching job. I had a 76 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:02.159 really sort of vested in our tulated interest in environmental 77 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.120 justice and environmental studies, and that was really the backbone 78 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.280 of this little college. It was a very intimate place. 79 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:12.120 About five hundred undergraduates all were there because they wanted 80 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:15.199 to study some aspect of the outdoors, and it really 81 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:18.480 was a community in the best sense, and the relationships 82 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.839 there were very long lasting. Lolly Winans had been a 83 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:24.600 student there when she was murdered in nineteen ninety six, 84 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:28.040 and it was immediately obvious to me from the moment 85 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.639 I arrived at the college, not only what an impact 86 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:34.199 she had left on the community there and just how 87 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:38.360 cherished she had been, but also just how deeply her 88 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:41.160 murder continued to affect that entire community. 89 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.120 So what do you find out about Lollly Winings. 90 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:48.319 You know, she and her partner, Julie Williams, were both 91 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:54.000 very skilled outdoor leaders. Lollie had grown up in Gross Pointe, Michigan, 92 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:58.079 to a very affluent family. She had also been a 93 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:03.399 sexual assault survivor and had really found a sense of 94 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:08.279 strength and security and sort of therapeutic rebirth, if you will, 95 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:12.279 with backpacking and outdoor leadership. She had arrived at Unity 96 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:17.319 planning to create an outdoor wilderness program. 97 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:18.560 For other sexual assault survivors. 98 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:22.639 She was doing an internship at a really wonderful outdoor 99 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:26.079 organization called Woodswomen when she met Julie. The two of 100 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:30.439 them fell in love, and they both had already accomplished 101 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:36.000 so much in terms of social justice, volunteering, outdoor leadership 102 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.639 when they had met at the very young age of 103 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:41.240 twenty four and twenty two, respectively. 104 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.680 Tell us about Julie Williams. 105 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:47.360 Julie grew up in Minnesota to a very tight knit 106 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:52.120 family whose Catholic faith was very important and continues to 107 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.560 be very important. She very early on developed a real 108 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.000 interest in social justice issues. She was fluent in space, 109 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:02.759 and while she was a high school student, she worked 110 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:08.120 as an interpreter for domestic assault survivors. She also was 111 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:11.720 a sexual assault survivor as well. She was an introvert 112 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.399 to Lally's extra version, so they were a really great 113 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.480 sort of yin and yang partnership in that. And she 114 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:20.399 also was a geologist by training. She had done a 115 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:25.319 lot of backcountry work in northern Minnesota on Native American reservations. 116 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.800 She had worked in Central and South America and Europe 117 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:31.399 as well, and she had also arrived at Woods Women 118 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:33.600 with an interest in becoming an outdoor leader. 119 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.160 This is quite important to the story obviously, but what 120 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.920 we're in the nineties and at this college, and a 121 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:44.800 big issue running through this book as well. In the story, 122 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:48.319 it was the attitudes about gay and lesbian and transgender 123 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:48.920 at that time. 124 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:51.439 Yeah, and I really appreciate you asking that question. 125 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.240 I think we tend to forget now in twenty twenty 126 00:06:55.240 --> 00:07:00.600 two how difficult it was to be LGBTQ plus in 127 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.720 the nineties. This murder, which took place in nineteen ninety six, 128 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:06.279 was three years before the murder of Matthew Shepherd, which 129 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:07.800 is a case I think a lot of people are 130 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:10.399 familiar with. You know, it was an era, as I 131 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:13.439 say in the book, when you know, Olympic swimmer Greg 132 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:18.279 Luganis had come out and not to a positive public appearance, 133 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.279 and so I think for a lot of people, keeping 134 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:25.480 your sexuality very hidden was still very very important, and 135 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:28.240 it was not a safe place to come out, as 136 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.279 we learn later in the book. You know, I think 137 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:34.720 tragically Lolly and Julie didn't know how well received they 138 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.120 would have been by their closest friends and family had 139 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:38.959 they had the chance to come out to them then, 140 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.040 but certainly in terms of the larger culture of America, 141 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.240 it was not a safe space, and so they, I think, 142 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:44.800 like a lot. 143 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.079 Of couples, kept their sexuality very hidden. 144 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.800 Tell us about how they both came to Unity College 145 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:52.160 and their stay there. 146 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.560 Lollly had bounced around a fair amount. She you know, 147 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:59.399 was this sort of free spirit. She loved the grateful Dead. 148 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.480 She you know, kind of wandered a little bit, which 149 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:05.439 I think a lot of Unity students did. But once 150 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:09.240 she found that calling of really wanting to work in 151 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.360 the world of what we now call adventure therapy, she 152 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.560 started looking for schools that really would set her up 153 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.480 in a place where she could sort of immediately start 154 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.600 doing that kind of work, and that was really one 155 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.439 of the articulated specialties of Unity. That's what brought her there, 156 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:26.399 and she really thrived at that campus. And when I 157 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:29.800 arrived in two thousand and one, that was abundantly obvious 158 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.639 to me. You know, the college had an Outdoor Leadership 159 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:33.559 Award that. 160 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:34.320 Was in her memory. 161 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:38.080 Every year, there's a large stone fireplace and the welcome 162 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:41.120 center that was dedicated to her. And so the lasting 163 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:44.399 impact she had there was really significant. When she was 164 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.879 a student there, Julie would come over and visit. Julie 165 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.440 took some outdoor leadership classes and a wilderness first responder 166 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:53.360 class as well, and so it really was I think 167 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.799 home in the sense of a larger community for both 168 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:59.080 of them, and for Lally certainly, I think it was 169 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:01.480 one of the first time she really truly felt like 170 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.080 she had a community around her. 171 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:06.879 You didn't leave Unity College until twenty and sixteen. But 172 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.639 I know this is sort of compressing a lot of 173 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:14.360 things quite quickly. But at what point and under what 174 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:19.279 circumstances do you get involved in this investigation as you 175 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:20.399 find out? 176 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:23.200 Yeah, and it's a really long story actually, you know, 177 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:26.399 I was Lolly and Julie's contemporary. I was the same 178 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:30.039 age as Julie, and they were murdered we think the 179 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.679 weekend of my college graduation, and I really identified with 180 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:36.039 them as soon as I had learned about this case. 181 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:39.120 I am also a sexual assault survivor, and like Lolly 182 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.480 and Julie, had really found a sense of strength and 183 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.320 a way to kind of get back into my body 184 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.120 by way of backpacking. And so when I learned very 185 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.519 shortly after the crime that these two outdoor leaders had 186 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:55.600 been murdered doing what I loved and what I felt 187 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.639 most safe doing, it really shattered my sense of security 188 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:01.799 in the world wilderness. So I had been aware of 189 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.279 the case since then, and I was aware when I 190 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.519 took the job at Unity that that had been Lolly's 191 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.720 alma mater had she graduated. But then, you know, September 192 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:15.720 eleventh occurred, i think during the first week of our 193 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:19.720 college class schedule that year, and you know, like the 194 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:23.480 rest of the nation, the college was really significantly impacted 195 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:25.919 by that event. And then in the spring of two 196 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:30.320 thousand and two, then Attorney General John Ashcroft made this 197 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:35.279 very public statement at a nationally televised press conference that 198 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.639 he was going to indict an individual in Lolly and 199 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:42.360 Julie's murder, which at that point was almost six years old, 200 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:47.120 and he made this very strange conflation between using brand 201 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:51.159 new enhanced hate crime legislation to prosecute this case as 202 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:56.799 a way to somehow redeem or soothe the country in 203 00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:59.720 the wake of September eleventh, It was a very strange 204 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.480 of these two events, and it brought the national spotlight 205 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.200 right back to the college and we were inundated with 206 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:11.200 reporters and journalists who were coming now to investigate what 207 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:14.480 had all of a sudden become the first federal hate crime. 208 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:14.799 In the nation. 209 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.000 And seeing that impact and seeing the way that it 210 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:21.559 brought up so much sort of painful memories and also 211 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:25.679 hope in the community was really arresting for me, especially 212 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:27.799 as a brand new and very young professor. 213 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.440 When you talk about Ashcroft, and when you spoke to 214 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.639 people later they spoke of it as a just political theater. 215 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.679 Was that part of the reason why you knew that 216 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:43.759 some of the more important, obviously more important facts about 217 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:47.720 their lives and the crime and the killer would rather 218 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.240 be overshadowed by this political theater and this issue that 219 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:54.919 Ashcroft was trying to make some kind of political hay with. 220 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.840 Yeah, and I think that realization was a long time 221 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.600 in coming. Elli and Julie's case had been politicized from 222 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:07.759 the very beginning. They were very publicly outed by a 223 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.879 Presbyterian minister who had worked with Julie while Julie was 224 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:15.919 living outside of the University of Vermont, and on the 225 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.480 day of their funeral, they were very publicly outed in 226 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:22.639 the national media because this woman, who was part of 227 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:28.519 an lgbt Q rights community, had publicly petitioned Janet Reno 228 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:30.720 to treat this as a hate crime then and so, 229 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.240 as I write in the book, the family and friends 230 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.480 of Lollie and Julie learned of their relationship and their 231 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:40.720 sexual orientation literally an hour before their funeral. 232 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:43.919 And it was a really jarring moment for them. 233 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:46.759 And at that point the family felt like they had 234 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:50.480 been very politicized. Certainly at Unity College in the spring 235 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.919 of two thousand and two, no one really understood how 236 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:57.679 it was that Lollie's case had anything to do with 237 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:58.639 September eleventh. 238 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:00.000 That didn't make any sense to us. 239 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.720 It wasn't until much later when I began my formal 240 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.120 investigation at the case and talked to some of the 241 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:11.120 lead investigators who they themselves felt really blindsided by John 242 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.879 Ashcroft's announcement, which came as a complete surprise to them. 243 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:17.440 And then I really started thinking like, Okay, well, if 244 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:21.759 the investigators themselves, if the prosecutors themselves weren't viewing this 245 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:24.720 case in this way, then why was the leader of 246 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:25.720 the Justice Department. 247 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:29.360 So at what point do you talk to these people 248 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.000 or get access to these people? And you talk about 249 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:36.000 that you went to the Richmond FBI office was and 250 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.759 met up with d Rybinski, public affairs officer, and another 251 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:45.600 person named Scott. What was that meeting like and how 252 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.559 did you get access to this information? Tell us about 253 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:49.360 that process. 254 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:52.960 Sure, So an individual, obviously in two thousand and two 255 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:54.879 was indicted by John Ashcroft. 256 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:56.279 His name is Daryl David Rice. 257 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:01.039 And over the years that indict me which had reached 258 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:05.000 jury selection, was very quietly dismissed, And it was very 259 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:08.679 quietly dismissed through a process in the justice system that's 260 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:13.159 called without prejudice. And basically what that means is we 261 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.240 still think this is the guy, but we don't have 262 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.360 quite enough evidence to ensure that we're going to have 263 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:24.080 a successful prosecution. And so the case was dismissed, but 264 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.840 it can be brought back at any time. And so 265 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:31.120 currently Darryl Rice is the only or possibly one of 266 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.080 two individuals who are currently in the state of what 267 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.360 is ultimately double jeopardy for a federal capital case in 268 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:40.399 the country right now. 269 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:41.919 So that had all happened. 270 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:46.159 Meanwhile, I had left Unity College and was writing full 271 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.480 time as a trail correspondent for Outside Magazine when the 272 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.120 FBI made again a very public announcement on the twentieth 273 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.279 anniversary that they were seeking information to close this case. 274 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:01.320 At that point was an. 275 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:05.039 Obvious sort of journalistic concern for Outside Magazine, and so 276 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:07.559 I had pitched it to my editor there, and I 277 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.519 was really curious about the language. There's usually boilerplate language 278 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.919 that the FBI uses, which says something like we're looking 279 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:19.720 for information that will lead to the successful arrest, indictment, 280 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:22.360 and conviction of an individual, and they had left the 281 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.200 first part of that out and they were like, we're 282 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.399 just seeking evidence, looking for the conviction of an individual. 283 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:29.840 And what seemed very clear to me when I watched 284 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.080 a few interviews with the lead investigator at that office 285 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.039 was they were still completely convinced that it was Daryl Rice, 286 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:39.279 and I went into the story thinking that they must 287 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:42.679 be right, you know, because the justice system works, and so, 288 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.919 you know, trained professionals had done their job, they had 289 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.559 found the right guy. They just needed that one little 290 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.480 thing to kind of get them over the hump. And 291 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.679 so I approached the story from that angle and had 292 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:57.720 contacted the FBI. And I think the FBI probably saw 293 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:02.480 in my coverage an opportunity to do some good pr 294 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.720 in terms of both the evidence response collection teams, the 295 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:10.480 forensic labs, the sheer investigations that they do. And so 296 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.240 after a lot of back and forth, they granted me 297 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:18.320 really fantastic access not only to their forensic lab at Quantuco, 298 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.320 but also agreed to take me to the murder scene 299 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:23.759 itself with the lead investigators. 300 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:23.600 In the case. 301 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:28.039 You say, initially you learned things that the back country 302 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:32.159 as they call them, investigations are much different. And why 303 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:34.919 tell us some of the things you learned about the 304 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.679 differences in the kinds of crime scenes and crime scene 305 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:41.960 analysis as a result the differences, and I think this 306 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:42.720 is something. 307 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.279 That we as Americans don't really think a lot about, 308 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:50.639 and that's the training that homicide investigators, whether they're federal, state, 309 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:54.440 or local receive and it's actually a really codified training 310 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:57.519 that takes place at a training center down in Atlanta, Georgia, 311 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.440 and they all basically receive the same training about how 312 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.399 to investigate the homicide. And as I explained in the book, 313 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:08.079 the process is very sort of urban centric, and so 314 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.720 they're taught that the first thing they should do is 315 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:14.160 secure the premises, you know, tape the door, get a 316 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:16.559 sense of the building as a whole and. 317 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:17.960 Who came and went, you know. 318 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.000 But none of that makes sense in a back country 319 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.839 crime where you don't know how wide the crime scene is, 320 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:28.519 you don't know whether a rock is a rock or 321 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.200 a murder weapon. You don't know to what degree animals 322 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.200 have disrupted things, or even the weather, and so it's 323 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.440 a completely different entity. And I think that's part of 324 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.359 why the closure rate for these backcountry crimes are the 325 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:43.319 lowest in the nation. 326 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.720 Now, you meet a woman named Jane Collins, and so 327 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.720 what do you and her decide to do? And tell 328 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.079 us about that decision and that trip. 329 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:55.880 So I had, as I said earlier, been offered access 330 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.680 to the murder scene, and the SBI had curated this 331 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.640 really impressive team of folks who included the lead investigator 332 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.559 at the time, and that was Collins, as well as 333 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.000 the lead investigators for the National Park Service. And one 334 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.119 of the things that I think is really important to 335 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.880 note is that any crime that occurs on National Park 336 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.920 Service land, whether it's urban or you know, and the 337 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:25.079 actual national park is the joint purview of the FBI 338 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.920 and the National Park Service law enforcement rangers. And those 339 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:33.640 are two radically different entities. They're different cultures, they're different training, 340 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.400 they're different missions in a lot of ways. And so 341 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:39.799 what was also very clear to me from the start 342 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.519 was that there was a big culture clash happening here. 343 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:46.160 And the way that a National Park Service law enforcement 344 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.680 ranger would approach a crime is different than the way 345 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.680 that an FBI law enforcement agent would approach the crime. 346 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.519 I should say that, you know, the investigators that I 347 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:57.759 met with that day had a really great relationship with 348 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.000 one another, and it was very clear that they respected 349 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.599 one another. But it was also very clear from interviewing 350 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.920 that there was a lot of frustration on both sides 351 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:07.039 about how this case had been handled. 352 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.920 One of the first things that you notice or that 353 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.319 you discover when you go to the crime scene itself. 354 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.880 Is when you look at the area that was determined 355 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.279 to be where Julie and Lawley set up their tent, 356 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:24.599 tell us about just your first impression's obvious conclusions. 357 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:27.359 And as as I say in the book, it was 358 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:32.000 really sort of anxiety producing to go to this scene 359 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:36.480 where I knew this incredibly brutal murder and sexual assault 360 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.759 had happened. And I went in with a fair amount 361 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:42.440 of trepidation, even though I knew I was going completely 362 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.039 flanked by trade law enforcement officials. But you know, a 363 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:48.880 few things really struck me when I visited. And the 364 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:53.200 first thing is was that this crime scene was a 365 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:54.759 backcountry campsite. 366 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:56.759 And when I say campsite. 367 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:58.880 I think it's really important for people to understand that 368 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:02.759 this was not like a state park KOA pull your 369 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:04.960 car up to a place, you know, where there's a 370 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.480 picnic table and a fire pit. They had picked this 371 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.960 site because it was so hidden. It was well off 372 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:12.960 of a trail, and it was well off of a 373 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:16.799 disused trail that hardly anyone in the park ever knew about. 374 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.720 And so the first thing that struck me was was 375 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:24.359 how sort of fundamentally impossible it would have been to 376 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:26.720 find them if you had gone looking for them. And 377 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:29.799 in fact, in the days after they were reported missing, 378 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.000 multiple rangers on a search for the women walked past 379 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:37.000 the campsite and didn't even notice it. And so that 380 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:41.000 was very haunting and chilling to me, was how was 381 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.799 how it was that the murder or even found them. 382 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:45.319 But then the other thing I talk about in the 383 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:49.000 book too, is just how surprised I was by what 384 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:54.480 a beautiful, peaceful place it was and the tranquility, and 385 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:58.519 not only had they picked that of the ideal spot, 386 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:02.279 but as I was there now, suddenly for me personally, 387 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.200 the horror of the scene kind of abated a little bit, 388 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:08.920 and I was just really overcome with this sort of 389 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:13.079 appreciation and admiration for these two remarkable individuals, and in 390 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:17.079 that moment they really became kind of fully formed humans 391 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:20.559 for me, and I kind of found myself really rededicating 392 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:23.920 myself to the importance of telling their story as well 393 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:25.640 as telling the story of their deaths. 394 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.400 Let's talk about what actually you find out about what 395 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.200 happens in this attack and what again you can surmise, 396 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:38.680 hence the title trailed, but what exactly you can surmise 397 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:40.839 from the evidence that was given to you, and you 398 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.480 had access to tell us about the murders. 399 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:48.440 So Julie's father had reported the two women missing after 400 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.960 they were overdue for several key appointments, and what resulted 401 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.720