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We're gona be my Law eighteen 29 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:00.000 plus terms conditions playing. 30 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:15.040 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 31 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:18.159 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 32 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:25.799 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week, 33 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:29.439 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking. 34 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.280 And infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 35 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:49.040 your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, a 36 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:52.239 true crime coming of age story with a tragic twist, 37 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.840 a New York editor's quest to uncover the truth about 38 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:59.319 the brutal murder of her wild and seductive friend in 39 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:02.760 a riveting, thoughtful examination of how we grow up and 40 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:06.840 apart as girls. Growing up in rural New Jersey in 41 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:11.360 the late nineteen eighties, Ashley and Carolyn had everything in common, 42 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:16.879 two outsiders who loved spending afternoons exploring the woods. Only 43 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:19.520 when the girls attended different high schools did they begin 44 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.919 to grow apart. While Carolyn struggled to fit in, Ashley 45 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:28.960 quickly became a hot girl, popular, extroverted, and sexually precocious. 46 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:33.520 After high school, Carolyn entered college in New York City 47 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.639 and Ashley ended up in Los Angeles, where she quit 48 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:39.639 school to work as a stripper and an escort, dating 49 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.319 actors and older men, and experimenting with drugs. The last 50 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:46.400 time Ashley visited New York, Carolyn was shocked by how 51 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.719 they had grown apart. One year later, Ashley was stabbed 52 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:51.800 to death at age twenty two in her Hollywood home. 53 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.319 Carolyn would discover she was the victim of serial killer 54 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.719 Michael T. Garritt Rialliol. 55 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.280 Originally engaging, The Hot One is the story of Carolyn's 56 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.599 emotional quest to find out what really happened to her 57 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:07.240 oldest friend. It's a journey that takes her through the 58 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:11.000 hills of Hollywood, into courtrooms in Los Angeles, to strip 59 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:14.000 clubs in Las Vegas, and back to her own childhood 60 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.120 memories as she tries to unravel why she and Ashley 61 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:21.400 became so different. How did Ashley end up the overtly 62 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:25.400 sexual risk taker, the Hot One, while Carolyn was seen 63 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:29.479 as the smart one, the observer. Caroline's memoir will shock 64 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:32.400 and fascinate readers as he explores the power of female 65 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:36.039 friendships and pays tribute to the ones that stay with 66 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:39.919 you long after they're gone. The book that we're featuring 67 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:43.520 this evening is The Hot One, a memoir of friendship 68 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.120 Sex and Murder with my special guest, journalist and author 69 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:50.680 and editor Carolyn Mrnick. Welcome to the program, and thank 70 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:54.599 you for very much for agreeing to this interview. Carolyn Mrnick, 71 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:59.199 Hi there, thanks for having me. Thank you very much 72 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:04.479 for this interview. Tell us a little bit about your 73 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:09.919 background before we talk about this book, The Hot One, 74 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:14.719 and your personal involvement in this very very personal memoir 75 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:16.720 true crime book. 76 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:22.519 I'm an editor at New York Magazine for the past decade, 77 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:26.439 and before that I had kind of worked my way 78 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:30.519 up in New York City journalism, seen as a writer 79 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:36.439 in fact checker at various culture and lifestyle magazines. So 80 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.920 I had been kind of in the media world for 81 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:42.639 a while, but I had no professional experience doing anything 82 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:48.120 involving crime or courts or investigation. So by the time I, 83 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:50.519 you know, at the time that I started my book, 84 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:53.560 I was really having figured it all out as I 85 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:54.240 went along. 86 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.360 Let's talk about it as you read, just introducing the 87 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:01.680 book that you you're twenty two years old at this time, 88 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:04.959 but this is in February two thousand and one. Tell 89 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.720 us what you find out and how you. 90 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:15.319 Found tell us, sure, well, I grew up in New 91 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:17.959 Jersey and my first childhood best friend was a girl 92 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.959 named Ashley, and she and I were close from the 93 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.040 age of nine years on, and we liked to play 94 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.160 piano and go to art classes together, and we lived 95 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:29.920 in a pretty rural area spend time in the woods. 96 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:34.079 And then her family moved away in the middle of 97 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.279 high school and we lost touch a little bit, but 98 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.680 so I show her a few more times between high 99 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:42.279 school and the beginning of college, and then we had 100 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:45.879 what I didn't know would be our last weekend together 101 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:48.240 in New York in the summer of nineteen ninety nine, 102 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:51.759 when she came to visit me at my college apartment, 103 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.040 and I go into detail about the sort of reckoning 104 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:59.759 and everything we did together that weekend, and the confusion 105 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:02.680 I felt about feeling that she and I had very 106 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:05.160 little in common anymore, and I didn't know whether our 107 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:10.319 our friendship would be able to endure that. And then 108 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:12.600 about a year and a half later, I learned in 109 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.399 our child in our town newspaper in New Jersey that 110 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:19.480 she had been found murdered in her home in Hollywood, 111 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.199 and you know that she had been That was sort 112 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:27.560 of a small local newspaper story about a former local 113 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.000 resident in this unsolved crime case. And immediately, you know, 114 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:34.120 I was shocked and numb, and I had so many 115 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:37.480 questions about what had happened to her at the end, 116 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.600 and I felt like when, if, and when I ever 117 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:44.920 write a book, you know, I wanted to be about 118 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:46.959 learning more what happened, about what happened to her, and 119 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.839 about kind of honoring the power of childhood friendships for 120 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.040 girls especially, and how you really kind of shape your 121 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:58.199 identity around each other and that this person. Everyone sort 122 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.279 of has a person that is still a part of 123 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.959 their lives, whether or not they are even still in 124 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:03.839 touch with them. 125 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:08.040 Let's talk about just what you find out from newspaper reports. 126 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.040 You write in the book that you don't find out 127 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:13.279 till five years, five days later, but this occurs in 128 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.839 February twenty second, two thousand and one in Hollywood Hill. 129 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.079 So tell us what you just find out, and then 130 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:22.600 take us back, like you do in the book, to 131 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:26.199 your friendship and how you actually grew up with your 132 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.199 childhood friend and the friendship that you developed. 133 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.600 Sure, well, you know what I learned in the in 134 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.319 the Bernersville News that was our town in New Jersey, 135 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.160 you know, was very little it said that this former 136 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.600 pepac resident that was the town that she lived in 137 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:48.199 had been found murdered, and there was some quotes from 138 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.959 a family friend saying that she was, you know, very 139 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.959 talented and she had been taking classes at the Fashion Institute. 140 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.519 Didn't say anything about suspects. It didn't say I believe 141 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:02.959 there was some incorrect information about you know, a boyfriend 142 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.160 finding her, when later I would learn that it was 143 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:10.639 her female roommate who found her body much later, and 144 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:16.279 you know, immediately I was I was shocked and really confused, 145 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:17.879 and I thought back to the last time I had 146 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.879 seen her in the summer of nineteen ninety nine, when 147 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.759 she had come to visit me. I knew that she 148 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.079 was living in la at the time, and I assumed 149 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:27.920 that she was also a college student like I was. 150 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:30.879 But through the course of the weekend, she revealed that 151 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:34.799 actually she wasn't spending much time in classes and had 152 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:41.279 a much more party, party focused lifestyle in Hollywood. She 153 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.879 said that she was working as a stripper occasionally and 154 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:49.200 sometimes even an escort, and that she was dating older 155 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:53.200 guys that were paying for various things in her life. 156 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:55.799 Her Mercedes and you know, some of them were actors 157 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:57.799 who were flying her out to meet them on set, 158 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:02.559 and she talked casually about drugs and a lot of 159 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:06.679 stuff that felt so so farn and exotic to me 160 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:08.639 that I that I didn't even know what to think, 161 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:11.080 and I just all I knew was that being around 162 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.480 her made me feel really insecure myself, because she appeared 163 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.600 to have so much confidence and to be enjoying life 164 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:21.440 so much when I was a you know, I was 165 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.480 an insecure twenty year old and I was sort of 166 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:27.799 just figuring out dating and trying trying to make my 167 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:29.840 way in the world. Actually seemed like she had it 168 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:32.039 figured out and was having a lot of fun doing it. 169 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.759 And of course, you know that was that she wasn't 170 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:38.679 like that as a nine year old. I mean at 171 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.519 the book is the core of the book is really 172 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:44.559 about how the two of us started out so similarly. 173 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:49.080 You know, we were both in childhood, bonded over pretty 174 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:56.600 sort of innocent and creative hobbies and activities. We both 175 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.440 came from loving homes, and it seemed like, you know, 176 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.360 we had everything in common and we're going on parallel tracks. 177 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:07.159 But then at the time of her death, we were 178 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.200 living very very different lives and so this book is 179 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:14.919 also tracing how she got to you know, from where 180 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:17.000 we started to where she ended up. And then the 181 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:22.799 book also takes takes on my journey to find out 182 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.039 answers about what happened to her over the next you know, 183 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.039 I spent close to fifteen years on this. Well she 184 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:33.519 was I won't give away too much, but I started 185 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.159 working on the book seven years after her murder when 186 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:39.720 I learned that a man had been arrested in connection 187 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:49.559 to her death, and as well as three other victims. 188 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:50.960 As you're write in the book, but this, as you've 189 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:55.919 just explained, is more so, especially because this is loaded 190 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:00.799 with celebrity. You can name drop all kinds of people 191 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:04.600 in this and also this serial killer that I mangled 192 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:08.440 his last name, so you can tell us Michael's name, 193 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:12.440 and you say, seven years afterwards, when you become involved 194 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:16.000 in this, you find out details about this killer. Tell 195 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.879 us what you find out at that time, and tell 196 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:23.480 us how you start to take on this investigation. And 197 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:32.840 also this exploration, well what. 198 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:36.559 I you know at the throughout my twenties. You know, 199 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:38.279 she was killed in two thousand and one. I was 200 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.039 twenty one at the time and she was twenty two. 201 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:45.720 You know, her family had moved back to California, and 202 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:49.919 we weren't able to connect with, you know, finding out 203 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.240 any new information. So to the best of my knowledge 204 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:54.799 that I thought that it was still an unsalt case. 205 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:59.240 I did not have context to be able to learn 206 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.799 more from law enforcement about even if there were active 207 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:08.679 investigations going on. And so seven years went by exactly 208 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:13.559 like that. And it wasn't until the fall of two 209 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:17.039 thousand and eight. You know, I had been googling her 210 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:19.639 every few months and not really coming up with much. 211 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:21.960 And finally, in the fall of two thousand and eight, 212 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:24.639 I had just gotten a new job that gave me 213 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.639 access to the Lexus Nexus database, so I decided to 214 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:31.519 google her again look her up there, and I learned 215 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:36.480 and I discovered that big news had happened. A man 216 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:42.919 had been arrested and for an attempted murder in the 217 00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:46.279 Los Angeles area. The woman survived, and now he was 218 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.960 in jail waiting trial. And he had been connected to 219 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:54.360 two other unsolved murders in Los Angeles going back to Ashley. 220 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:57.039 And then there was someone else in two thousand and five, 221 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.799 and he was also a person of interest in an 222 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:04.600 unsolved murder of his high school classmate in Illinois. He's 223 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:08.559 from suburban Chicago, and so all at once I was like, 224 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:11.679 you know, I was shocked. I had no idea that, 225 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:15.200 you know, this is this an alleged serial killer. Who 226 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:17.639 is this person? How is he connected to her life? 227 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:21.320 And it wasn't until two years later, when I was 228 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:26.279 able to attend the preliminary hearing for the Sky that 229 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:29.320 I learned much more about who he actually was and 230 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:34.039 how he was, how he had infiltrated his way into 231 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.879 her life. You know. But I also want to say 232 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:39.799 not to give away, you know, not to give away 233 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.639 the book, but the case has still not gone to 234 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:46.720 trial yet as of April twenty nineteen, So this guy 235 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.879 has been in jail waiting trial for eleven years. We 236 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:58.080 can't necessarily we can't call him, you know, convicted yet, right, What. 237 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.879 Did you find out about your friend Ashley came in 238 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:05.000 contact with this killer? 239 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.720 Well, I learned that in the preliminary hearing, you know, 240 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:17.080 I had listening to her friends testified, listened to her 241 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:19.440 friend's testify and talking to them outside of the courtroom. 242 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:25.440 I learned that this guy was someone who lived down 243 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.840 the street from them in Hollywood, and he one day 244 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:33.440 just appeared on the on the road when her friend's 245 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:35.679 car had a flat tire, and he said that he 246 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.200 would help them fix it, and he also said he 247 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:42.559 was an air conditioning repairman, and he gave them his card. 248 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:46.879 And so then a couple of days after that, they 249 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.759 realized that their boiler had broke, and so they decided 250 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:51.799 to call him, and he came over. And then from 251 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:57.039 then on he would stop by unannounced and you know, 252 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:02.039 tried to was trying to ingratiate themselves into himself into 253 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:05.240 their social circle because they were, you know, this house 254 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.519 in this cul de sac in Hollywood was you know, 255 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.440 an active social center that people would stop by, they 256 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:16.240 would have parties, and so it wasn't completely unusual that 257 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.559 this new person was stopping by unannounced. But a few 258 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.440 of her friends testified that they always felt he was 259 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.120 creepy and they didn't like having him around. But Ashley 260 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.320 felt that he was harmless and it was no big deal. 261 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:33.159 And at the time, he was also only a few 262 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.440 years older than she was, so he was in his 263 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:39.240 mid twenties. I think he was twenty six at the 264 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:44.080 time of her murder, and she was twenty two. He 265 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:49.720 was also one more thing I was just sort of say. 266 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.879 He was also relatively good looking. He had told people 267 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:55.759 that he came to Hollywood to try to make it 268 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:57.960 as a boxer or an actor, and he had been 269 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:00.360 in a student film, and so you know, the other 270 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.080 thing about him is he didn't necessarily stand out in 271 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.720 her crowd of kind of good looking young people. He 272 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.639 fit in as someone that, you know, seems like he 273 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:13.120 could belong more or less. 274 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.360 You write in the book about that last meeting that 275 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.840 you have that is unnerving and part of this focus 276 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:23.639 of this book and what you call the book the 277 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.879 Hot One. Tell us a little bit about that visit 278 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:31.919 with her and what is the the events that demonstrate 279 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:35.080 to you some of the things that you hadn't seen 280 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:38.759 before in terms of attention from men, and sort of 281 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:43.519 that the difference between you, of the stark difference between 282 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:47.480 you that was demonstrated in that last meeting that you 283 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:48.399 had with her. 284 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.759 Yeah, well, you know a b A big theme of 285 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:59.399 this book is how for girls you are really figuring 286 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:01.639 out your place in the world and your identity and 287 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.240 reference to one another. And you might look at a 288 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:07.519 friend and be like, hmm, she is you know, she 289 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:12.599 seems to be confident about talking to guys on the street, 290 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.559 or you know, she's trying that drug. Maybe I should 291 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:17.839 try that drug. You're you're looking at your friends and 292 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:20.759 they cause you to question your own decisions and sometimes 293 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:22.839 kind of show you who you want to be or 294 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.000 brings up issues of jealousy. And you know, was this 295 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:30.160 that was a lot of what I was going through 296 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.279 in that last weekend of Ashley. You know, it started 297 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.279 out that when I met her coming off the I 298 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:37.880 believe she took the bus into New York City, she 299 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.319 just looked like a totally different person. She had, you know, 300 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.880 bleached blonde hair, and she was wearing a you know, 301 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:51.200 as I remember, it just very different La sort of clothes. 302 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.200 And I'm sure anyone who's been to LA knows that 303 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:59.279 in LA everyone's beautiful and they and they wear fewer 304 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.240 clothes and they do New York and they wear more 305 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.920 body conscious clothes, and there's more of a sort of 306 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:09.519 sexualized aesthetic out there. And that was not something I'd 307 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:11.599 seen before at the time. I mean, this was before 308 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:16.319 now everyone wears leggings everywhere. Back then, seeing someone wearing 309 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:19.519 leggings as pants in the year nineteen ninety nine was 310 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:21.960 a little bit shocking. And that was the kind of 311 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:24.559 stuff that Ashley wore. She had leggings as pants, she 312 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:27.319 had see through T shirt, she was wearing you know, 313 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:31.119 glitter eye makeup, and she had you know, her hair 314 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.759 was a different color. And I struggled to make to 315 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.039 recognize her in a way when I first saw her, 316 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:40.200 I was like, I struggled to connect her to the 317 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:43.240 girl that I had known. And you know, as we 318 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:46.160 proceeded to spend the weekend together and doing things like 319 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:49.319 you know, going out to a club and you know, 320 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:51.640 meeting the guy that I was dating at the time, 321 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.680 and I just saw how much more confidence she was 322 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.200 and how much more sexually forward she was than I was, 323 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.640 and you know, going to a bar with her, how 324 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.599 many were magnetized her energy. I had never seen anything 325 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.279 like it. Once it at once made me feel you know, 326 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.519 distant from her, and it also made me feel bad 327 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:14.880 about myself. And you know, after she left that weekend, 328 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.960 I remember thinking, I don't know if I can handle 329 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.559 that again. Maybe, you know, maybe actually and I will reconnect, 330 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:23.920 you know, later on in life, but I'm not sure 331 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.799 that this is going to work anymore. 332 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.319 In this investigation that you undertake to find out what 333 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.559 really happened with your friend Ashley. You meet her friends 334 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:42.039 that end up testifying at the preliminary that you go to, 335 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:47.240 and you meet other players like detectives, small and other 336 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.319 people and journalists and other people that help you with 337 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.279 everything that you were trying to investigate and trying to 338 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.160 do with this with this book and trying to find 339 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.720 out more about your friend. Tell us a little bit 340 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:04.000 about to your experiences with some of Ashley's friends and 341 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:08.559 sort of the picture that they paint or they have 342 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.559 for you as to the character that she develops into 343 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:15.599 Los Angeles. 344 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.200 Yeah, I mean, it was a very fascinating thing because 345 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:23.000 if you can put yourself back in the stage of 346 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:25.720 life as of being like twenty twenty one, it's a 347 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.079 big time of transition. Is the time when you're meeting 348 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.480 a lot of new people and you know you're figuring 349 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.079 out if your relationships from high school or earlier are 350 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:37.759 still serving you. And so the friends who I met 351 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.440 who would go on to meet the preliminary hearing who 352 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.720 are will be testifying in the trial, most of them 353 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.920 were people who had only known her for about a year, 354 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.480 and you know, it was fascinating to me that they 355 00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:56.759 knew her in a totally different way than I did. 356 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.240 They knew her as someone that, you know, would go 357 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:03.079 to movie premieres and hotels of him and would do 358 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:08.400 drugs and was very glamorous. And one friend was her friend. 359 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.720 Chris was a fashion stylist at the time, and he 360 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:16.799 told me that he would sometimes borrow clothes that he 361 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.240 had been working with on shoots and that Ashley would 362 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.000 put in these put on these amazing designer gowns, and 363 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:24.640 they would go out to fancy hotels and have drinks 364 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:27.680 and everyone would everyone would be staring at her, and 365 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:30.799 you know, so that was fascinating for me to hear 366 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.039 because it was, you know, totally different. They knew her 367 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:38.119 in a totally different way than I did. But you know, ultimately, 368 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:42.599 some of these people, Chris in particular, is someone that 369 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.480 I've developed my own friendship with over the years. And 370 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.680 I also recognized that this group of friends, as we 371 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:55.839 all did, experienced a great trauma with this murder, and 372 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.200 it sort of I came to understand broke everything a 373 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.039 part for this kind of care free group and the 374 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:06.960 way that they had been living basically after the murder happened, 375 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.480 her roommate never never again went back to that home, 376 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.240 and they really hadn't seen each other in many, many years. 377 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:16.359 Because I think what happened with them is in the 378 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:21.759 months following the murder, you know, they were all being 379 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:26.559 contacted by police a lot and trying to piece things together. 380 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.519 And then as the investigation either stalled or went in 381 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.400 a different direction, they stopped hearing from people and even 382 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.039 stopped seeing each other. And I think that, you know, 383 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.200 I'm imagining that it felt like reconnecting was very painful. 384 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.559 And so when I saw when I was meeting them 385 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.319 all at the preliminary hearing nine years after the murder, 386 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.920 it was clear that that was the first time in 387 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.119 a long time that any of them were seeing each 388 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:57.319 other again. And so, you know, it's a real comment 389 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:01.119 on how a loss like this tram just it has 390 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.960 such a long reverberation in people's lives, and those friends 391 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.359 and you know me as well, will will always sort 392 00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:13.200 of be connected in a very somber and painful way 393 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:16.519 by having this loss of this shared person. But we 394 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.599 may not, you know, we may not actually be talking 395 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:21.599 every day, or it may be painful to see. 396 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:26.680 Each other you write about the undo, I guess focus 397 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:33.279 on this story because of actor Ashton Kutcher's involvement. Tell 398 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.359 us just a little bit about the preliminary that he 399 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:41.640 was people speculated that he might be appearing at that preliminary. 400 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:46.920 Tell us his minor involvement in this story, right. 401 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.240