Speaker 1: The most exciting part of this to me is, and
Speaker 1: again some of our Democrat friends could disagree with this
Speaker 1: a little bit, but these bills are going to be
Speaker 1: written from Main Street to Washington, not from Washington, DC
Speaker 1: to Main Street. For far too long, we've had bureaucracies
Speaker 1: literally drafting the legislation.
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Speaker 1: Welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Tony Edward, and joining me today is
Speaker 2: Congressman Tom Emmer, who's the majority whip of the United
Speaker 2: States House of Representatives. Congressman Emmer, Great to see you.
Speaker 1: Great to see you, Tony.
Speaker 2: Congressman. I have a big smile on my face because
Speaker 2: we've been talking for what is it three four years now,
Speaker 2: with all the madness that happened on their di Biden
Speaker 2: and administration, we saw how the elections played out. Looking back,
Speaker 2: you know, what are your thoughts on how this all
Speaker 2: played out?
Speaker 1: For crypto and much more? Well, it is for much more,
Speaker 1: you know, it's I think the American people. The unique
Speaker 1: part about this last election is they had an opportunity
Speaker 1: to know what the one choice, what the economy was
Speaker 1: like under one choice, because they saw that for four
Speaker 1: years at least up until it was interrupted by the pandemic,
Speaker 1: and then they got to see what the economy looked
Speaker 1: like under the last administration for four years, and it
Speaker 1: was a pretty easy choice. Now what came with that?
Speaker 1: I mean, the attacks on President Trump using the court
Speaker 1: system are really not that far away from the attacks
Speaker 1: on the crypto industry and the digital assets industry by
Speaker 1: one Gary Gensler and others through the SEC and the
Speaker 1: Executive agency apparatus. It's really interesting to see that the
Speaker 1: mainstream media tony of which you are not part of it,
Speaker 1: thank god, they're desperately trying to spin stories about the economy,
Speaker 1: about Trump, about well, guess what. The economy is going
Speaker 1: to take a little bit of time, but it's coming back.
Speaker 1: We've solved the immigration crisis at least for now. We're
Speaker 1: going to have to have long term solutions for this
Speaker 1: so that we have people coming to this country because
Speaker 1: we've got jobs. Right, and speaking of jobs, the digital
Speaker 1: asset community is here to stay right this new administration,
Speaker 1: Paul Atkins just being confirmed the other day, it shows
Speaker 1: that we are open for business. They're dropping all of
Speaker 1: the misguided lawsuits and legal action against these different entities.
Speaker 1: You remember, over the course of four years, Gary Gensler
Speaker 1: at the SEC used to say, come on in, my
Speaker 1: door open, and when you'd leave, you'd be delivered a
Speaker 1: summon shortly after that or some other legal document telling
Speaker 1: you that you are now under scrutiny from Gary and
Speaker 1: his colleagues. That's over. That's over. I think we all
Speaker 1: recognize that it's time to get back to what makes
Speaker 1: this country great, which is innovation. It's innovation, it's taking risk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we want to make sure that people are protected, but
Speaker 1: let's not protect people to the point where they're not
Speaker 1: able to do anything. I mean, it was a stark choice,
Speaker 1: and I think the results speak for themselves. I'll just
Speaker 1: add one more thing, because you know how I feel
Speaker 1: about the digital assets community in the crypto industry. It's
Speaker 1: not partisan. It's not about Republicans or Democrats. And I
Speaker 1: think that vote last November was as much about people,
Speaker 1: just ordinary people in America saying I've had enough of
Speaker 1: this finger pointing, I've had enough of this blame game.
Speaker 1: I want you guys to get something done for once,
Speaker 1: and I don't care what your political stripe is. I
Speaker 1: want you to be doing the right thing for the
Speaker 1: right reasons. And again, I think that is beginning to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well put and you know, adding tonally, I know
Speaker 2: from friends and family, both Democrats and Republicans, they are
Speaker 2: involved in crypto in one way or the other, and
Speaker 2: they're not thinking about it politically. But unfortunately Elizabeth Warren
Speaker 2: Gary Ginster made a political in the Alasta you know regime.
Speaker 1: Of course.
Speaker 2: Do you think Gary Ginster will be working in government again.
Speaker 2: I see him popping up out of all of a
Speaker 2: sudden talking about crypto.
Speaker 1: I hope not. I mean, I just got back from
Speaker 1: a trip to California to see some of our friends,
Speaker 1: and I understand that there are many in the digital
Speaker 1: assets community who have pledged they will not hire any talent,
Speaker 1: and there's a ton of it at M I t
Speaker 1: unless than until Gary Genslers fired. Carrie Ginstler really proved
Speaker 1: himself to be one of the most disingenuous or more
Speaker 1: directly put, dishonest individuals that we dealt with in the
Speaker 1: last administration. I don't know how he thinks he can
Speaker 1: move from a black cape to a different cape overnight,
Speaker 1: right that he can be one person before he went
Speaker 1: into the administration, and that was when he was teaching
Speaker 1: this very subject to students, M I T. Then he
Speaker 1: becomes Darth Vader of the you know, the evil Empire
Speaker 1: that was the last administration where he was carrying the
Speaker 1: water for Elizabeth Warren and Shared Brown and others. That
Speaker 1: just they're deathly afraid Tony, and you know this, this
Speaker 1: is your message all the time. They're deathly afraid of
Speaker 1: what decentralization offers. It offers Tony and Tom the ability
Speaker 1: to do business directly with one another and not have
Speaker 1: the long arm of the government or in this case,
Speaker 1: the Gary Genslers of this world getting in between our
Speaker 1: transactions and trying to frustrate our ability to innovate and
Speaker 1: create and provide for the next generation. I hope he
Speaker 1: is never employed in an executive branch type function again.
Speaker 1: You know, if he has, I'd be concerned even having
Speaker 1: him employed by the National Park System because I don't
Speaker 1: know that he's giving me. I don't know that he'd
Speaker 1: be giving me the honest advice on my trails.
Speaker 2: Well put, now, President Trump promise has made, promises kept.
Speaker 2: He's done a lot so far for the crypto industry.
Speaker 2: He recently signed into law the first crypto build signed
Speaker 2: into law the repeal of the IRS DeFi rule. Tell
Speaker 2: us about this and how significant it was.
Speaker 1: Well, the IRS rule, which was finalized in last December.
Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty four, was following or pursuant to
Speaker 1: the Portman Amendment in the twenty twenty one Infrastructure Bill.
Speaker 1: And I should have said the infamous Portman Amendment in
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty one Infrastructure Bill. It's time that these
Speaker 1: misguided rules are gone. And I mean, this is, like
Speaker 1: you say, promises made promises. Capt Trump told us this
Speaker 1: is what he was going to do if he was elected,
Speaker 1: and this is exactly what he's going to do. The
Speaker 1: important thing here, though, to me, goes back to the
Speaker 1: beginning of our conversation where we're talking about it not
Speaker 1: being a partisan issue. You realize that this cra received
Speaker 1: seventy six Democrats, almost one hundred Democrats voted for it
Speaker 1: in the House, and you had almost twenty Democrats voting
Speaker 1: for it in the sentence. So, like I say, last
Speaker 1: November was more about, hey, let's get stuff done. Stop
Speaker 1: wearing different colored jerseys and running into each other. We
Speaker 1: don't mind the debate, but you gotta get something done.
Speaker 1: And what this shows is we're starting to move in
Speaker 1: that direction. Not only do we have a president who
Speaker 1: made a promise and he's keeping that promise, but we
Speaker 1: have a House and a Senate the Congress that is
Speaker 1: actually starting to work together to get these misguided policies
Speaker 1: out of the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so, Congressman number do you foresee this being
Speaker 2: the start of getting bills through and signing to law
Speaker 2: this year? Because the Market Structure and stable Coin bill
Speaker 2: are the meat and potatoes, right, everyone's waiting on those.
Speaker 2: What can you tell us there about the timeline and
Speaker 2: meeting President Trump's you know, his timeline of get it
Speaker 2: to my desk before the August recess.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've heard a bunch about this, and obviously I'm
Speaker 1: in the middle of it. We've got a couple of
Speaker 1: great shares in the Senate, in the House that are
Speaker 1: moving things at Tim Scott over in the Senate in
Speaker 1: french Hill. Here in the House, the Genius I Act,
Speaker 1: the stable Coin version of the bill, the Senate bill,
Speaker 1: Bill Haggerty's bill is moving. It got out of committee.
Speaker 1: It's not entirely in alignment. I mean, there are some
Speaker 1: differences between the House and the Senate. The Senate bill,
Speaker 1: stable Coin Bill, we've seen the Market Structure Bill. We
Speaker 1: don't have text yet, but the President, you might remember,
Speaker 1: at the Crypto Summit that was held in the White
Speaker 1: House a few weeks ago, I said he wanted both
Speaker 1: the Market Structure Bill and the stable Coin Bill, and
Speaker 1: I will tell you that he also wants my prohibition
Speaker 1: on central bank digital currencies, which he promised to outlaw
Speaker 1: during the campaign. He wants those on his desk by
Speaker 1: the August recess. So that should give you a good
Speaker 1: timeline as to what's going to happen in the House
Speaker 1: and the Senate. I expect we're going to start moving
Speaker 1: the two bills in the in the House very soon,
Speaker 1: and then it's going to take seven senators over in
Speaker 1: the In the Senate, we're going to have to have
Speaker 1: seven Democrats that vote with us. But the twenty that
Speaker 1: voted for the cra that we just talked about, that
Speaker 1: bodes well for getting both of these, both of these
Speaker 1: bills through the process.
Speaker 2: Comains memory, do you think we're going to have kind
Speaker 2: of as far as you know, how old I am.
Speaker 2: I remember the nineteen ninety six bill, which was amazing
Speaker 2: for the Internet. It opened up tons of innovation and prosperity,
Speaker 2: and we had Google and Amazon, all these great companies
Speaker 2: come out of that. Are we about to have that
Speaker 2: moment here? When these bills are passed, it opens up
Speaker 2: innovation and jobs and wealth creation and much more.
Speaker 1: What these will do. And let's make sure that everybody
Speaker 1: that's paying attention to your podcast understands they should not
Speaker 1: expect either of these bills to be absolutely perfect. We
Speaker 1: need them to be as good as they can possibly be,
Speaker 1: because what they're going to provide, Tony is the ground rules.
Speaker 1: They're going to tell everyone who wants to innovate and
Speaker 1: create here in the United States of America, this is
Speaker 1: what you can expect so they can plan so they're
Speaker 1: not wasting millions of dollars on lawyers fighting with misguided bureaucrats.
Speaker 1: So this is Congress saying, all right, look, we're stepping in.
Speaker 1: We're telling you here the ground rules if you want
Speaker 1: to if you want to create stable coins and utilize
Speaker 1: that dollar back stable coins, this is what it has
Speaker 1: to look like. Put the guidelines on it so people
Speaker 1: can predict and plan and do all the things necessary
Speaker 1: to start new ventures. The same same thing with the
Speaker 1: Market Structure Bill. The Market Structure Bill. It's kind of
Speaker 1: twofold for me. It creates a playing field where people
Speaker 1: understand who their regulator is, so you're not being overly
Speaker 1: regulated by every single darn regulator in the federal government,
Speaker 1: which they all seem to want a piece of it.
Speaker 1: So let's make sure that people know who they're dealing
Speaker 1: with in the government, what it is they have to
Speaker 1: provide to the government and to the public, so that
Speaker 1: we can allow them to get moving. The most exciting
Speaker 1: part of this to me is, and again some of
Speaker 1: our Democrat friends could disagree with this a little bit,
Speaker 1: but these bills are going to be written from main
Speaker 1: Street to Washington, not from Washington, d C. To mainstream.
Speaker 1: For far too long, we've had bureaucracies literally drafting the legislation.
Speaker 1: And I learned this firsthand in the last Congress when
Speaker 1: I was getting a little frustrated and I realized, well,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons is because the FED has staff
Speaker 1: loaned to the House Committee, which is great, but the
Speaker 1: Fed has their own view of these things. I want
Speaker 1: the entrepreneur's view, I want the innovator's view. I want
Speaker 1: the view from main Street where you're trying to create,
Speaker 1: not from Washington, d C. Where you're trying to regulate.
Speaker 2: And to your point, having the crypto industry weigh in,
Speaker 2: are you for seeing that specific agencies which you know
Speaker 2: are going to play a critical role here, such as
Speaker 2: the SEC and the CFDC, they're going to weigh in
Speaker 2: as well. Maybe Paul Atkins will work with Congress to
Speaker 2: get some sort of structure in for securities or non securities.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you've got our cryptos are in his
Speaker 1: able Deputy Beau Hinds. They're weighing in. Obviously, they're kind
Speaker 1: of a what would you call it, They're kind of
Speaker 1: a the circuit that things are going into. You've got Adkins,
Speaker 1: you're going to have the CFTC, you're going to have
Speaker 1: the FDIIC, all of these entities. From the Trump perspective
Speaker 1: now right, not from what was yesterday, but from the
Speaker 1: perspective that we need this exciting new twenty first century
Speaker 1: finance developing and blossoming right here in the United States
Speaker 1: of America, much like we allowed the Internet to do that.
Speaker 1: As you referenced after the nineteen ninety six law, it's
Speaker 1: we can become victims of our own need to regulate
Speaker 1: and restrict We've got to open it up. The best
Speaker 1: innovation comes when people are free to try things, to
Speaker 1: think outside the box, and do things that other people
Speaker 1: said could never happen. It's we're getting back to that.
Speaker 1: That is a benefit of the new Trump administration. But
Speaker 1: the people you're talking about have been chosen by Trump
Speaker 1: because the goal is to open this up and allow
Speaker 1: this innovation and creation to occur again.
Speaker 2: And in regards to the stable Coin Bill, is there
Speaker 2: more of an urgency there because of its geopolitical implications?
Speaker 2: For example, helping to maintain the world reserve currency, which
Speaker 2: is the US dollar because US dollar back stable coins
Speaker 2: can be used by different companies even outside the United States,
Speaker 2: and those stable coin issues in their reserves will have
Speaker 2: to buy US treasuries. Is there a higher level of
Speaker 2: urgency for that?
Speaker 1: Not for me? I know in the Senate, yes, I
Speaker 1: mean they're looking at it as the stable Coin Bill is.
Speaker 1: At least this is what I've been led to believe.
Speaker 1: They think that's the one that beats to move right away.
Speaker 1: I can tell you that my chairman, at least up
Speaker 1: till now, is saying you don't get one without the other.
Speaker 1: But to your point, I mean the excitement around a
Speaker 1: dollar back stage coin is all about shoring up the
Speaker 1: reserve currency status at the US dollar and imagine a
Speaker 1: world where we can export US dollars, which is essentially
Speaker 1: what we'll be doing. But as french Hill would tell you,
Speaker 1: because he's told me, the problem is without a market
Speaker 1: structure Bill, you're missing part of the equation. People need
Speaker 1: to know what the rules are. It isn't just about
Speaker 1: a stable coin and who's creating it. It's really about
Speaker 1: how we're developing digital assets. What's a commodity, what's a security,
Speaker 1: what's a what's currency? Right? A dollar back stable coin literally,
Speaker 1: I'm going to just imagine wouldn't just be currency, It
Speaker 1: could be part of a security. So you need the
Speaker 1: you need the market structure Bill. I tend to agree
Speaker 1: with french Hill, you can do both at the same time.
Speaker 1: And I understand where the Senate's coming from, and we'll
Speaker 1: see that's why this government was set up this way, right,
Speaker 1: because one person isn't necessarily right, and you got to
Speaker 1: have the different ideas. You got to have the tension
Speaker 1: between the two bodies, and that way you get the
Speaker 1: best results. So I'm confident that regardless of how it
Speaker 1: ends up, we're getting both of them. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: great point.
Speaker 2: The two bills dovetailed together because if you want to
Speaker 2: issue a stable coin, well which blockchains can you issue
Speaker 2: them on? You need the clarity from the market instructure
Speaker 2: to tell you that great point. Now there's also the
Speaker 2: talks of setting up a bitcoin reserve and a digital stockpile.
Speaker 2: A congress member, I'm fascinated by this because I feel
Speaker 2: it's like another Breton Woods moment after World War Two.
Speaker 2: Of course gold US dollar bitcoin being used by different
Speaker 2: central banks and governments around the world. What are you
Speaker 2: hearing there and what's the likelihood of this getting passed?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean the President Trump last month already sign
Speaker 1: an executive order that creates a strategic Bitcoin Reserve and
Speaker 1: a digital stockpile. Both both are going to hold, are
Speaker 1: going to hold on to, or be based on seized
Speaker 1: crypto assets. And the executive order also directed relevant agencies
Speaker 1: to investigate ways that we can bolster the reserve and
Speaker 1: the stockpile without spending tax payer dollars. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: it couldn't be a more clear statement as to what
Speaker 1: they expect. I think the real question there is it's
Speaker 1: an executive order. The agencies are going to get to
Speaker 1: work on what is necessary and what is possible. But
Speaker 1: Congress at some point has to look an executive order
Speaker 1: like this, Tony, and how do we turn that into
Speaker 1: federal code. Because what we don't want to see happen
Speaker 1: is this administration is crypto friendly and is putting this
Speaker 1: out there to move us in the direction of twenty
Speaker 1: first century financial services. We don't need the next administration
Speaker 1: coming in much like we saw with the last one
Speaker 1: and suddenly pulling the rug out from underneath everybody that's
Speaker 1: doing these things. It's I think it's a little different
Speaker 1: when the granted when it's a bitcoin a strategic bitcoin reserve,
Speaker 1: as opposed to when it's some of the other executive
Speaker 1: orders he's done. But I really do think there's a
Speaker 1: place for Congress to get involved in this and make
Speaker 1: sure that it lasts and grows as opposed to it's
Speaker 1: here today and gone tomorrow. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Great point. So I'm assuming David Sachs and his team
Speaker 2: they're going to try to find the revenue revenue neutral
Speaker 2: avenue to be able to facilitate this and then pitch
Speaker 2: it to Congress to get that into some sort of law.
Speaker 1: Well, we've got members doing it too, But yes, David
Speaker 1: Sachs and Bohinz and his entire group are going to
Speaker 1: be providing a lot of the substance for this. But
Speaker 1: it's interesting. We've got nick I get Choose carrying a bill,
Speaker 1: We've got others that are looking at this in more details.
Speaker 1: So look for a what a partnership between the executive
Speaker 1: branch and the legislative branch to get this thing done now.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm one of those that no,
Speaker 1: we're not going to have taxpayers buying bitcoin to put
Speaker 1: in the strategic reserve, but there are ways I imagine
Speaker 1: that are going to be a revenue neutral to do that.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure.
Speaker 1: Now a congressmanmember.
Speaker 2: One of the big things that are being discussed and
Speaker 2: that's still in the process, is banks being able to
Speaker 2: fully participate in crypto. We've had to repeal a SAB
Speaker 2: one two one. The FDIC and the OCC have loosen restrictions.
Speaker 2: The FED just last week made some updates. But I
Speaker 2: saw Senator Cynthia Alumbus and some other folks like Katon
Speaker 2: Lung said it's kind of lip service. They haven't fully
Speaker 2: removed the restrictions they have had over the years. That
Speaker 2: seems to be the head of the snake here. What
Speaker 2: do you hear in that front? And when could they
Speaker 2: fully open things up?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, this is going to be an ongoing process. Right.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of land mines that were buried
Speaker 1: by the last administration that we're just going to have
Speaker 1: to go after one at a time. But the Trump
Speaker 1: administration is working on, I would say, over time to
Speaker 1: remove these Biden era red tape type land mines that
Speaker 1: were planted, and they're trying to reverse obviously the law
Speaker 1: fair against the crypto community. When I was at the
Speaker 1: Crypto summit, I loved one of the crypto folks well
Speaker 1: known that said, you know, wow, we're in the White House.
Speaker 1: A year ago, if you would have told me the
Speaker 1: crypto industry would be sitting in the White House at
Speaker 1: a crypto summit, I wouldn't have believed you. I would
Speaker 1: have believed we were more likely to be in jail. Right.
Speaker 1: So the Trump administration is working to get that stuff
Speaker 1: behind us so the crypto innovation I can thrive. And
Speaker 1: that the I got to add, it's not just that
Speaker 1: the crypto administration can thrive it's so the existing financial
Speaker 1: system can develop alongside of it. Right. We don't want
Speaker 1: to kill one at the expense of the other. We
Speaker 1: need them both. We have the best markets in the
Speaker 1: world in this country, and our two tier legacy banking
Speaker 1: system and payment system has work beautifully. But it's now
Speaker 1: time for digital. You don't want to lose what you
Speaker 1: already have. You want to bring that into the twenty
Speaker 1: first century at the same time. So I just believe
Speaker 1: that digital assets is going to offer users a choice
Speaker 1: to engage in peer to peer transactions like I was
Speaker 1: talking about with Tony and Tom and do those online.
Speaker 1: But there's always, in my opinion, going to be a
Speaker 1: need for intermediaries like banks, and we've got to protect those.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, comes van Emma. Thank you so much. I know
Speaker 2: you got to run and I appreciate it. And hopefully
Speaker 2: our next conversation will be the bills have been I
Speaker 2: have been sitting on President Trump's desk and you know
Speaker 2: we got we're ready for signatures.
Speaker 1: Yes, I would love to be doing a victory dance
Speaker 1: come August.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: All right, Tony, take care