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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them. Gaysey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good evening. On December twenty first,
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight, John Wayne Gacy was arrested. Upon an
Speaker 3: initial search of the crawl space beneath his ranch house
Speaker 3: in Norwood Park Township, Illinois, the authorities discovered the remains
Speaker 3: of several bodies. The skeletal remains of twenty nine young
Speaker 3: men were unearthed on Gaysey's property. Another four bodies were
Speaker 3: pulled from the river where Gaysey jumped them off the
Speaker 3: Smith Bridge in Shanahan, Illinois, bringing the body count to
Speaker 3: thirty three total. In nineteen seventy eight, Gaysey held the
Speaker 3: title of America's most prolific serial killer for the first time.
Speaker 3: In print, John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator contains the
Speaker 3: police and other legal files covering the pursuit, arrest, and
Speaker 3: confession of Gaysey. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 3: is John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator, The Pursuit, Arrest
Speaker 3: and Confession with my special guest, true crime filmmaker and
Speaker 3: author John Barowski. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 3: very much for this interview. John Serowski.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me, Dan, It's a pleasure to
Speaker 4: be on.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. Let's
Speaker 8: talk about the forward to this book, how you came
Speaker 8: to be the author of this book, but talk about
Speaker 8: your connection with Dahmer and your interest in serial killers.
Speaker 8: How you came to that, as you explained in the
Speaker 8: forward of this book.
Speaker 4: Sure, So, when I was growing up, I had known
Speaker 4: relatively little about serial killers. My background was always loving
Speaker 4: horror films, so started off at the universal horror films
Speaker 4: and then worked my way through slashers. And then when
Speaker 4: I was in high school, I decided, well, I'm interested
Speaker 4: in horror films and makeup effects, so I started getting
Speaker 4: into special makeup effects. I reached out to Dick Smith,
Speaker 4: who did the makeup effects for The Exorcist and The
Speaker 4: Godfather and many other classic films, you know, and then
Speaker 4: he had gotten me in touch with someone who was
Speaker 4: local near me in Chicago, and that's how I started
Speaker 4: doing makeup effects. And then I had shot short films
Speaker 4: on eight millimeter, which at the time that's what it
Speaker 4: was before video. You know, you'd shoot, you'd send your
Speaker 4: film into be developed, you'd get it back. And so
Speaker 4: I was actually, you know, using my makeup creations in
Speaker 4: these short films with my best friends, so I think
Speaker 4: it was when I was probably either a senior in
Speaker 4: high school or just after my senior year of highs school.
Speaker 4: My best friend called me up and he said, you
Speaker 4: got to come over. So I went over to his house.
Speaker 4: And his father was a detective in Chicago when Dahmer
Speaker 4: was arrested, and I believe it was ninety one, so
Speaker 4: that would have just been when I graduated high school.
Speaker 4: So he had said, you got to come over here,
Speaker 4: and I went to his house and what my friend
Speaker 4: thought was a mask catalog was actually the Dahmer file,
Speaker 4: which he found in his father's study, and it contained
Speaker 4: Dahmer's brief confession, but it also contained photocopies of photos
Speaker 4: that Dahmer took of his victims, heads on the sink,
Speaker 4: with amplicated hands and body parts. And coming from a
Speaker 4: background of horror films, when I had seen these, this
Speaker 4: was real horror. It wasn't, you know, anything that was
Speaker 4: made up. So I was shocked at these photos. You know,
Speaker 4: the heads had the eyes open and the mouths were
Speaker 4: open and just awful, you know, and I couldn't get
Speaker 4: out of my head. So when I went into college,
Speaker 4: I figured, well, from my first film Tech two class.
Speaker 4: What better to do than a short film on the dose,
Speaker 4: including some of his confessions. So that was interesting. And
Speaker 4: also when I was in college, I had to do
Speaker 4: a paper on the history of Chicago and I was
Speaker 4: looking through this one book and they mentioned this castle
Speaker 4: of AK Holmes, that this guy had built this nuge
Speaker 4: building in the eighteen hundreds and rented rooms during the
Speaker 4: World's Fair, and it was like a kind of murder
Speaker 4: mansion from the mind of Edgar all of Pohand of
Speaker 4: course that fascinated me because I've always been into lacabre,
Speaker 4: but it wasn't really until I read Harold Checker's book Deranged.
Speaker 4: Once I read Deranged, that really created HH Holmes as
Speaker 4: a more fascinating character, given the fact that he went
Speaker 4: to medical school and graduated medical school, and he had
Speaker 4: three wives and he had mistresses, and it was his
Speaker 4: own attorney at his trial. So I thought, Wow, this
Speaker 4: isn't just some madman who designed this crazy building. This
Speaker 4: was an emo genius. And the next thing was I
Speaker 4: looked up why there wasn't ever a filmmate on AJ Holmes.
Speaker 4: So that was my first film out of college. AJ
Speaker 4: Holmes Americus a serial killer, and that began my interest
Speaker 4: in serial killers. That was a big hit. So I
Speaker 4: just continued making films on serial killers, and you know,
Speaker 4: I thought, well, who could top h Holmes? And nobody
Speaker 4: had made a film about Albert Fish, so that was
Speaker 4: my second. And then I had done cans Ran and
Speaker 4: then a film called serial Killer Culture, which examines why
Speaker 4: people authors, musicians, and artists and collectors are fascinated by
Speaker 4: serial killers. And I turned that to a TV show
Speaker 4: called serial Killer Culture TV. And along the processes I'm
Speaker 4: making my films, though, I think about, you know, I've
Speaker 4: got all these original documents and research materials. Why don't
Speaker 4: I just put my research materials into books? And that's
Speaker 4: how the books came about. So when you read my books,
Speaker 4: they may have a forward by me or someone else,
Speaker 4: but they're really the original case documents, you know. And
Speaker 4: because there are so many books out on these serial killers,
Speaker 4: I thought, what could be more interesting than reading the
Speaker 4: words from the serial killers or the detectives attorneys in
Speaker 4: PSYCHIAI just who chased and studied these serial killers.
Speaker 8: You talk about the just Gaycy case, and you talk
Speaker 8: about the confession that's included in your book. You say
Speaker 8: that Gaysey retracted the confession and denied everything eventually, But
Speaker 8: you have these source documents photocopied and incredibly just with
Speaker 8: the documents, just with the incredible photos that you've included,
Speaker 8: things like Gaysey's birth certificate, amazing. All of these things
Speaker 8: tell the story of John Wayne Gacy, at the time,
Speaker 8: the most prolific serial killer in American history. And your
Speaker 8: book includes information by the planes Police Department in Illinois
Speaker 8: who tailed Gaysey for twenty four hours for ten days
Speaker 8: in December nineteen seventy eight, which led to his apprehension, trial,
Speaker 8: and eventual execution. These documents are an excellent example of
Speaker 8: true detective work, basically some of the best detective work
Speaker 8: in history. This is all pre DNA typing as you write,
Speaker 8: what is this book dedicated to?
Speaker 4: I dedicate the book to the Displays police force. We
Speaker 4: had the kind of insight and kind of fore knowledge
Speaker 4: to Okay, let's create a task force prehend this guy.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's twofold. It's dedicated to the detectives who
Speaker 4: brought him down, as well as the victims, which were unfortunate,
Speaker 4: but it's really dedicated to the detectives who, without them
Speaker 4: Gacy may have continued doing what he was doing obviously
Speaker 4: as cross space was filled, and then he started throwing
Speaker 4: bodies off the Smith Bridge and may have been caught eventually,
Speaker 4: but the trying and true detective work of the Displays detectives.
Speaker 4: I interviewed two of the former detectives, Mike Albrecht and
Speaker 4: Dave Hafmeister, and some of their stories kind of move
Speaker 4: into the realm of absurdity. And this has all been
Speaker 4: interesting lately. I recently had revisited Goodfellas it was re
Speaker 4: released them shown at a theater out here and actually
Speaker 4: right near Displays where Gasey was brought down, the Pickwick Theater,
Speaker 4: and watching that throughout almost the entire movie, you're laughing
Speaker 4: at the absurdity of this. Some of the aspects of
Speaker 4: the Gaycy case are that absurd. I mean, these detectives
Speaker 4: brought down probably the top five most world renowned serial
Speaker 4: killers ever and they had to carry quarters in their
Speaker 4: pockets because their CBS wouldn't even reach their headquarters at
Speaker 4: the time period. I mean, you talk about impossible on
Speaker 4: no cell phones, and they didn't even know what was
Speaker 4: going on. They had no idea that all these bodies
Speaker 4: were in the basement. They knew something was wrong because
Speaker 4: they knew one of their residents and displays was missing.
Speaker 4: He was last seen with this contractor Gaycy. So the
Speaker 4: Lieutenant Cosens act it was really because of him creating
Speaker 4: this task force of detectives. They created three different teams,
Speaker 4: one to look at Gaysey's background, one to look at
Speaker 4: Rob Peace the missing victims background, and another one just
Speaker 4: to investigate Gaycy now. And then when they investigated Gaycy's background,
Speaker 4: they saw these satomy charge in Waterloo, Iowa. They saw
Speaker 4: there were two or three arrests in Chicago since he
Speaker 4: had returned from Waterloo. Something's amiss here. And again I
Speaker 4: dedicated to them because they are the true heroes and
Speaker 4: they're so you know. Even when I met the dentist
Speaker 4: who identified all of the well not all, but the
Speaker 4: majority of the remains, doctor pablock, I said, you're a hero,
Speaker 4: and just like the detectives, they'll poopoo it. And I'm like, man,
Speaker 4: you guys, really they're so you know, down to earth
Speaker 4: and good people. But in the end, they are the
Speaker 4: true heroes of the story.
Speaker 8: You provide in the documents, though a very chilling story
Speaker 8: of what happened with Rob Peaste. And then later you
Speaker 8: provide the confession where Gacy freely talks about what happened
Speaker 8: with Rob Peaste. But first you also include very very
Speaker 8: interesting anybody knows this story. But again through the documents
Speaker 8: you can tell this story as well. Tell us the
Speaker 8: story about the mother and Rob Peaste and the pharmacy
Speaker 8: and this talk of the job and an interesting person
Speaker 8: that came forward, which was Kim Buyers that worked in
Speaker 8: the photo section of that pharmacy. Tell us this horrible story.
Speaker 8: Because we don't have the opportunity through the confession or
Speaker 8: through these documents to go through the thirty three victims,
Speaker 8: the twenty or so that were identified in the end,
Speaker 8: the nine that weren't. But let's go back to that
Speaker 8: date and how Gacy was tripped up finally thankfully.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're all sad cases obviously, but you know Rob,
Speaker 4: he's probably the sad just how it occurred and how
Speaker 4: everything went down. So Rob Peace was a teenager who
Speaker 4: was working at Nisson Pharmacy and that was in this
Speaker 4: planes and he was just he was trying to save
Speaker 4: money to buy a jeep. That's what he wanted to do.
Speaker 4: He wanted to buy a jeep. He was saving his money.
Speaker 4: So you know, he's working at the pharmacy and always
Speaker 4: looking for fructra work. So he's at the pharmacy one
Speaker 4: night and there was this contractor who is Gaycy was there.
Speaker 4: Gacy was in the store. He was familiar with the owner,
Speaker 4: Go Tork and Kim Byers was there. He was another
Speaker 4: worker Apple store. So they all went miss safety in there,
Speaker 4: you know, possibly talking to Rob Peace. And at one
Speaker 4: point in the night Kim Buyers, the other coworker at
Speaker 4: the pharmacy, wanted to go outside. She had to run outside.
Speaker 4: I don't know if she smoked or wanted to grab something,
Speaker 4: but she asked about Rob's jacket, so he said, no problem.
Speaker 4: He gave her this blue down jacket that he wore,
Speaker 4: and not knowing it, she had in her hands. What
Speaker 4: she had given to the pharmacy was a because again
Speaker 4: in the old days, when you would develop photos, you
Speaker 4: would give them your role of photographs and they would
Speaker 4: put it in an envelope and you'd get a little receipt.
Speaker 4: So when you come back to pick up your developed photos,
Speaker 4: you give them the receipt and pay and you get
Speaker 4: your photographs. So she had done that. She had a
Speaker 4: receipt from her photographs that she had put in Rob
Speaker 4: Peacee's jacket. She totally forgot about it. So later she
Speaker 4: goes back in, she gives Rob Piecee his jacket. She
Speaker 4: forgets about it. Snow big deal. So later in the night,
Speaker 4: about nine o'clock, I think the store clothes. Around nine o'clock,
Speaker 4: just before nine, Rob Peace's mother had come to pick
Speaker 4: him up, and she went in the store. She had
Speaker 4: seen him. He said, okay, you know, I'll be on
Speaker 4: the feud. She went out front, was waiting for him,
Speaker 4: you know, and then nine o'clock comes, around nine ten,
Speaker 4: nine twenty, he's nowhere to be found. She goes back in.
Speaker 4: They say, well, we don't know where he went. You know,
Speaker 4: last we saw him, he said he was going to
Speaker 4: run outside and talk to that contractor guy. That's all
Speaker 4: he said. So that's where the story kind of began.
Speaker 4: So his mother went home and said, well, I'm sure
Speaker 4: I'll call her me. He went home. No big deal.
Speaker 4: And it was her birthday. It was Rob Peace's mother's birthday,
Speaker 4: so they were going to celebrate her birthday. She was
Speaker 4: picking her son up, goes home hour goes by, hours
Speaker 4: go by, more hours go by. Of course, you know,
Speaker 4: this good kid, you know, who never was in any trouble,
Speaker 4: never shows up the entire night. So the parents call
Speaker 4: it the Spains police department that night and they take
Speaker 4: the information down. Early in the morning, Rob Keith's parents
Speaker 4: are there at the Discloine's police department being on the door.
Speaker 4: He never showed up. So that's when the investigation into
Speaker 4: the disappearance of Rob Pease began, and that's when they
Speaker 4: started asking people questions they went to. Obviously during the investigation,
Speaker 4: they go to the pharmacy and they say, well, yeah,
Speaker 4: he talked to that contractor guy. Well, may have been Gaycy.
Speaker 4: He was in here. We're not sure if that was him,
Speaker 4: because no one saw Rob Keats get into Dacy's vehicle.
Speaker 4: But the detectives are figuring out, okay, let's go and
Speaker 4: talk to this Gacy guy. So you know, eventually, you know,
Speaker 4: they call Gacy and you know, he said he would
Speaker 4: be in and make some excuses, and you know, so
Speaker 4: eventually they do wind up talking to Gacy and you know,
Speaker 4: he kind of you know, just says, you know, here's
Speaker 4: what happened. You know, my uncle was dying, and you know,
Speaker 4: I was at home, and you know, I don't know
Speaker 4: anything about this kid. I was there at that store
Speaker 4: earlier and that's all I know. And even after that though,
Speaker 4: they thought they were you know, inaccuracies and and story.
Speaker 4: So the Displays Police Department did get a search warrant,
Speaker 4: and after that first search warrant, that was where all
Speaker 4: the red flags were raised because when they searched Gacy's house,
Speaker 4: they found numerous IDs from different young men. They found
Speaker 4: pairs of handcuffs, they found dildo's, they found books hidden
Speaker 4: about you know, gay lovers, and you know, you know,
Speaker 4: all the asnomy materials. They found a two by four
Speaker 4: that had holes drilled into it. So obviously, you know,
Speaker 4: their suspicions were raised. And then if a little what
Speaker 4: actually happened is Rob Peace did go out to talk
Speaker 4: to John Wayne Gacy. When he went out, Gacy said, well, yeah,
Speaker 4: happened to car. You know, I only lived five minutes
Speaker 4: from here. We'll go to my house. We'll talk about it.
Speaker 4: You know, I you know, I could pay you more
Speaker 4: than what anybody else pays you. So it was really
Speaker 4: you know, the allure of making more money that threw
Speaker 4: rod he's John Wayne Gacy. And again Gacy was well known.
Speaker 4: He was a nice guy. Everybody knew Gaycy, so it
Speaker 4: wasn't like this was some stranger in a sense because
Speaker 4: Phil Poor, the owner of the pharmacy, he knew Gaycy.
Speaker 4: And Rob Peace did get in the car with Gacy
Speaker 4: and he went to his house, which was more again
Speaker 4: about five or ten minutes away from the pharmacy. Gets there,
Speaker 4: Gazie's talking to him about, well, you know, I'm pretty
Speaker 4: liberal minded myself. You know, what do you think about sex?
Speaker 4: What are your views on it? You know, have you
Speaker 4: ever heard of the Kingsy Report? You know. He does
Speaker 4: his usual speel on Rob Peat, trying to feel him
Speaker 4: out to see if he's going to be easy or
Speaker 4: he's going to be hard victim. Well, it turned out
Speaker 4: that he wasn't really into it. And then Gacy started
Speaker 4: to show him the handcuff trick and he said he
Speaker 4: was a registered clown and puts these handcuffs on Rob
Speaker 4: Peace just like he did all his other victims, behind
Speaker 4: Rob Peaste's back so he can't get out of them.
Speaker 4: He shows Rob Peace the key and says, well, here's
Speaker 4: the key, you know, this is how I got out
Speaker 4: of him. This is why you came out of them,
Speaker 4: because I had the key. And then he starts actually
Speaker 4: attempting to perform oral sex on rob Peaste, and rob
Speaker 4: Peaste wasn't able to achieve an erection, so Gacy started
Speaker 4: to do the rope trick. And two reasons for the
Speaker 4: rope trick. One if it's kind of like when people
Speaker 4: do the autoerotic asphyxiation, that it's possible to have more
Speaker 4: blood flow that have erection, So that was one reason.
Speaker 4: But eventually once Gacy turned it even more, turns the
Speaker 4: rope around their neck, he would create a little not
Speaker 4: stick a stick in and then create another not turn
Speaker 4: that like a tourniquet, eventually choking them within a matter
Speaker 4: of thirty seconds. So he was turning this on rob Piece.
Speaker 4: Rob Piaste was crying as if Gacy was attempting oral
Speaker 4: sex on him. The phone rings, Acy goes to answer
Speaker 4: the phone. When he comes back, Rob Piece is dead
Speaker 4: on the floor from the tourniquet, and then Gacy fluck
Speaker 4: with the body. Overnight may have had more sex with it,
Speaker 4: Gaysey said he did. We're not sure of the exact
Speaker 4: details of that, and then Gacy took rob Piece's body
Speaker 4: and put it in the attic. So the first time
Speaker 4: when the Displainings detective came to Gacy's house and searched
Speaker 4: the entire house, I'm sorry, prior to the first time
Speaker 4: of searching the house, when they just went to talk
Speaker 4: to Gacy, Rob Peace's body is still in the attic.
Speaker 4: So that's when Gacy, when they left Casey took the
Speaker 4: body down, took it to the river, threw it in
Speaker 4: the river, and then the displays police came back with
Speaker 4: a search warrant, so it again. You know, it's just
Speaker 4: this chain of events that I think poor Rob Peace
Speaker 4: is probably you know, they were all bad, but I
Speaker 4: think that one get the closest to home because it
Speaker 4: was his last victim, and you know, Gasey was just
Speaker 4: getting sloppy, you know, I think his lust overcame his
Speaker 4: mind at that point and probably even you know, didn't
Speaker 4: even think about the fact that he was probably seen
Speaker 4: by other people and he would be fingered.
Speaker 8: You talk about their suspicions. Once they have that search warrant,
Speaker 8: they see beyond red flags, so they put him under
Speaker 8: twenty four hour surveyor pretty well almost you say, almost
Speaker 8: twenty four hours surveillance. Those are some gaps in that
Speaker 8: tell us how does he react to this twenty four
Speaker 8: hour surveillance, does he know it? When does he know it?
Speaker 8: And just tell us what the fruits of the surveillance are.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that surveillance by the Displays Police Department
Speaker 4: was one of the first. There had never been a
Speaker 4: dedicated task force like that to apprehend a criminal. So
Speaker 4: Displays gets a lot of kudos for actually forming this
Speaker 4: task force. And one of the units was the surveillance unit.
Speaker 4: So there was the unit to look at Gaysy in
Speaker 4: his background, the unit to look at Rob Peaste in
Speaker 4: his background, and another unit to have surveillance of Gaysy
Speaker 4: around the clock twenty four hours. There was a day
Speaker 4: shift and a night shift, so the officers I interviewed
Speaker 4: Hackmeister and Albrek they were the night shift. So they
Speaker 4: had started I believe that night, maybe midnight, and then
Speaker 4: they would go until noon next day. So it was like,
Speaker 4: you know, twelve each each one had a twelve hour shift,
Speaker 4: and at first there wasn't a surveillance, but I think
Speaker 4: the first day or two after, I think, especially after
Speaker 4: they had gone in with a first search onet. That's
Speaker 4: where around. I believe it was ten or eleven days
Speaker 4: total of the surveillance, and so they had started. It
Speaker 4: was a covert surveillance. That's what it was supposed to
Speaker 4: be at first. So Dave Hackmeiser was the second shift
Speaker 4: on the scene and when he arrived, he didn't see
Speaker 4: Gaysey until the next morning. So Dave Hackmeister was parked
Speaker 4: on Gacy's block. At about ten am the next morning,
Speaker 4: Gasey came up his block, stopped, saw Dave Hackmeister and
Speaker 4: waved at him. So it was no longer a covert,
Speaker 4: you know, Valance, because Gaey knew and along the whole
Speaker 4: time of the surveillance. Gacy was very nice to all
Speaker 4: the detectives. He knew what was going on. There were
Speaker 4: times when the first couple of times when these detectives
Speaker 4: were following him, he would order them drink. He would
Speaker 4: tell them to come over and sit with him when
Speaker 4: they were at a restaurant. He's like, why should we
Speaker 4: sit apart? I don't know why they're following me.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 4: He would basically tell them that he was just this
Speaker 4: good guy that had a business and he doesn't know
Speaker 4: anything about this kid's disappearance, and then the surveillance team
Speaker 4: would interview other people and everyone all had great things
Speaker 4: to say about Gaysy. His neighbors, his friends, his work
Speaker 4: acquaintance said, this is just a jovial, you know, great
Speaker 4: guy from Chicago's you know, one of these great Polish guys,
Speaker 4: that's an extrovert, that is just a ton of fun.
Speaker 4: You're gonna love him. So I could never see doing
Speaker 4: anything bad, you know. So these detectives are following Gaycy,
Speaker 4: but you know, there are times where he would lose them.
Speaker 4: He would he would fly. You know. I got stories
Speaker 4: from the detectives that said they'd be doing these high
Speaker 4: speech chases in Chicago. Police would never stop them. They're
Speaker 4: chasing Gaycy, and he would lose them sometimes. So that's
Speaker 4: where the total twenty four hour surveillance, you know, comes
Speaker 4: into place. Sometimes they had lost him and he would
Speaker 4: just take off at high speed.
Speaker 8: There was also some evidence found because there was a
Speaker 8: person named John and I don't know the pronunciation, but
Speaker 8: sick physic and in January twenties, nineteen seventy seven, he
Speaker 8: went missing and tell us what they found, which they
Speaker 8: believed potentially was items belonging to John Cysic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the items belonging to John Cizzick. That again, as
Speaker 4: they're doing this whole investigation the first time when they
Speaker 4: went into Gatesey's house, they had taken some photos of
Speaker 4: the rooms, and through their investigations they had learned that
Speaker 4: John Cizzick had a small television, a black and white
Speaker 4: television that was very similar to the television that was
Speaker 4: in Gacy's house, as well as one of Gacy's employees
Speaker 4: had a car that was formerly owned by John Cizik.
Speaker 4: So they're trying to piece these again, these pieces together
Speaker 4: and say, okay, this is kind of strange. So at
Speaker 4: one point, the day shift investigators said, well, you know what,
Speaker 4: if Gaysey invites us into his house, we're going to
Speaker 4: go in. So one night, Gacy says, you want to
Speaker 4: go bowling, I'm going bowling. So the cops go bowling
Speaker 4: with him. They actually both some games, had some drinks
Speaker 4: with him. They go back to Gacy's house. He invites
Speaker 4: them in. They went in and one of the guys said, well,
Speaker 4: you know what, try and keep Gasey busy. I'm going
Speaker 4: to try and sneak into that room and write down
Speaker 4: the name of you know, the serial number of that
Speaker 4: television to see if it was John Zick's. So he
Speaker 4: asks Gafey, Okay, you know, where's your restroom? Can I
Speaker 4: use that? Gasey tells them it's down the hall over there.
Speaker 4: So the detective goes down the hall, goes to use
Speaker 4: the restroom, and as he's in the restroom, he smells
Speaker 4: the smell coming from the events when the heater kicks in,
Speaker 4: and he said the last time he remembered smelling a
Speaker 4: smell like that was at the County Morgue. So again,
Speaker 4: there are all these little clues leaning up to these
Speaker 4: to the eventual you know what we found out at
Speaker 4: the end of the investigation, but that's the serial number
Speaker 4: on that television because right after you got out of
Speaker 4: the bathroom, he don't want to be way too long
Speaker 4: he was coming, so you know, they didn't find that
Speaker 4: out until the end. But again, along their investigation they're
Speaker 4: putting all these pieces together, including when they go back
Speaker 4: to the pharmacy. One of the key pieces of evidence
Speaker 4: items was Kim Buyer's film re seat because when the
Speaker 4: detectives actually did do the search of Gacy's house, on
Speaker 4: the first search, warrant. They looked in one of Gacy's
Speaker 4: garbage cans and they found that film re seat in
Speaker 4: Gacy's garbage can. So they went back to the pharmacy,
Speaker 4: interviewed kim Byer's and kim Byer said, that's my film receipt.
Speaker 4: I put it in Rob Peace's jacket pocket. So what
Speaker 4: that meant was that placed Rob Peace in Gacy's house
Speaker 4: because it was in his jacket when kim Byer's had
Speaker 4: given him his jacket back, So they knew at some
Speaker 4: point Gacy had been in touch with Rob Peaste or
Speaker 4: he had been in that house.
Speaker 8: Gasey changed his demeanor and became more frantic an erratic
Speaker 8: in his behavior under this surveillance, under this ten days.
Speaker 8: But part of that was that when they were under surveillance,
Speaker 8: they and even when they were first at Gaysey's home,
Speaker 8: there was employees of his construction company that would come
Speaker 8: to the home. And of course eventually these people were
Speaker 8: questioned from the information that they gave police, and Gaysey
Speaker 8: really didn't know what they really could say or what
Speaker 8: they did say, just thought they might be loyal. What
Speaker 8: kind of information did they learn from like guys like
Speaker 8: Mike Rossi and David cham I believe his last.
Speaker 4: Name is Cram. Yeah, they you know it's Gaysey had
Speaker 4: many young men that he had employed for his business,
Speaker 4: HEDM Construction. Of course, some of those employees he actually
Speaker 4: murdered and they found their bodies later. But he had
Speaker 4: several devoted employees and two of them were Michael Rossi
Speaker 4: and David Cram. And these young men would, as far
Speaker 4: as Gasey said, he would have them dig trenches in
Speaker 4: his cross space. So tell these kids is, look, I
Speaker 4: need you to dig trenches in the crawl space because
Speaker 4: they get flooded down there with all this storm water
Speaker 4: and you know, have some pump down there. But I
Speaker 4: need these you need to build these trenches. So supposedly,
Speaker 4: according to Gacy, that he would supervise them when they
Speaker 4: would go down there and dig some of these trenches,
Speaker 4: that he would say, oh, no, you got to have
Speaker 4: to stay over there, make sure you're there. Don't go
Speaker 4: further this way, don't go further that way. And eventually
Speaker 4: David Cram and Michael Rossi were interrogated by the Displays
Speaker 4: police and they talked to them about Gacy and his businesses,
Speaker 4: and then the detectives asked them about the cross space
Speaker 4: and they told them, yeah, well he had us go
Speaker 4: down there and dig some trenches. But especially Michael Rossi
Speaker 4: when they talked to him about it, they said, look,
Speaker 4: we're trying to find this rob piece, this kid that disappeared.
Speaker 4: We're going to ask you this specifically, would there be
Speaker 4: anywhere on the property that you would think this kid
Speaker 4: would be? And Michael Rossi told them specifically the Crows Space.
Speaker 4: Now why he said that, who knows? You know, we
Speaker 4: and you know there are men, may conspiracies that people
Speaker 4: were involved with the actual murders with Gaycy, but that's
Speaker 4: a whole other thing to get into. But supposedly these
Speaker 4: two were digging trenches from him, right.
Speaker 8: Also, some of the evidence that was found was highly
Speaker 8: incriminating too. You talk about some of the pills, animal nitrate,
Speaker 8: tell us some of the things that were found. They
Speaker 8: are also very very incriminating when you look at this case, OK, yeah,
Speaker 8: we'll look at it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Gacy. You know, in the end it turned into
Speaker 4: it turned into an addict. You know, he was addicted
Speaker 4: to alcohol and deliume and uppers and downers, and you
Speaker 4: know he would get these from his contacts at these pharmacies,
Speaker 4: you know, where he had done jobs, so he didn't
Speaker 4: have prescriptions. He would get these things for free, or
Speaker 4: he'd acted them to his victims and knock them out.
Speaker 4: But towards the end there it was really bad, especially
Speaker 4: when the police were chasing Gaycy down. There were times
Speaker 4: where he was probably so hopped up on pills that
Speaker 4: when they were chasing him towards the end the last day,
Speaker 4: actually when he was apprehended, you know, Mike Albright said,
Speaker 4: his head was bobbing and he's holding his rosary and
Speaker 4: they didn't know if he was going to kill himself
Speaker 4: or run himself off the road, or kill someone else.
Speaker 4: And that's when they decided to take him down because
Speaker 4: you know, they they saw what was going on, and
Speaker 4: they knew that he had given some cannabis to a
Speaker 4: young man that worked at a gas station earlier in
Speaker 4: the day, and they said, well, we're just going to
Speaker 4: take them down for this. They couldn't even really communicate
Speaker 4: with their headquarters. When they finally did, the headquarters told
Speaker 4: them to do what you have to do. The tectives said, okay,
Speaker 4: and again the heroes made the choice. They said, we're
Speaker 4: just going to take them down, and we're just going
Speaker 4: to use the cannabis, you know, arrest so and you
Speaker 4: know he even had authorities had found a bottle that
Speaker 4: had smelled from chloroform because one of Gasey's living victims,
Speaker 4: there were some living victims, and one of Casey's living victims,
Speaker 4: juck Rignall, said, that's what Casey used to knock him out.
Speaker 4: It was this rag soaked in somestance meat.
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Speaker 8: So you talked about that amial nitrate or the whatever
Speaker 8: chemical he used to be able to incapacitate him being
Speaker 8: found as well in this chloroform, the chloroform, Yeah, pardon me, yes,
Speaker 8: tell us about the investigation from there though, I mean,
Speaker 8: once we have him in custody, he is panicked, and
Speaker 8: through that ten day surveillance he becomes panicked and erratic,
Speaker 8: and now he's at a different state. The surveillance also
Speaker 8: recorded that he had been to his lawyer, Sam Amaranti,
Speaker 8: isn't it wasn't it the evening before? So then when
Speaker 8: he comes into the station, what are the kinds of
Speaker 8: things amazingly that you have in these documents that he
Speaker 8: starts asking the authorities. Yeah, like referencing about whether they've
Speaker 8: been in the crawl space.
Speaker 4: Yes. The night before, DC had been to his attorney's office,
Speaker 4: Samara or Monty, where he confessed everything to Sam or Monty.
Speaker 4: Sam Ramonti of course could not tell the detectives because
Speaker 4: of the lawyer client you know, privilege, And he said, well,
Speaker 4: you can't only let Gacy go shoot his tires out
Speaker 4: if you have to, And the cops said, no, we
Speaker 4: can't do this. You know, we can't shoot out his tires.
Speaker 4: You got to let us know, and you couldn't. So anyway,
Speaker 4: that's when it started the beginning of the end. That
Speaker 4: entire day where Gacy was a erradic and everywhere they
Speaker 4: would follow Gacy. Gacy went to one of his best
Speaker 4: friend's house, where later they learned that Gacy asked one
Speaker 4: of his friends for a gun because what he wanted
Speaker 4: to do is go outside shoot one of the cops
Speaker 4: and then they would shoot him. Suicide by cop. That's
Speaker 4: how some of these criminals, you know, choose to die,
Speaker 4: you know, rather than kill themselves. They want to be
Speaker 4: taken out. But of course his friend didn't give him
Speaker 4: the gun. So eventually, when they do arrest Gacy for
Speaker 4: the cannabis possession, they took him to the hospital because,
Speaker 4: as always, Gacy in the pass would claim he was
Speaker 4: having these stake heart attacks. So they took him to
Speaker 4: a hospital and displaims. You know, they tell the doctors
Speaker 4: trust them for everything, because we want to keep them
Speaker 4: here for as long as possible. Because while they're there,
Speaker 4: did the splains. Police are trying to get this final
Speaker 4: search warrant, well, not final, the second search warrant. There
Speaker 4: were numerous other ones to come after that, but the
Speaker 4: second search warrant to actually go into his house and
Speaker 4: go into the crass space. So eventually they do, and
Speaker 4: that's when they found bones of two human remains in
Speaker 4: the crawl space while Gaycy's at the hospital, So they
Speaker 4: take them back to the police station and displays and
Speaker 4: they start this first confession again. There are going to
Speaker 4: be three confessions from Gacy. The first one was the
Speaker 4: one with just the displains. Police detectives present, and Gaysey
Speaker 4: is asking them, well, did you go in the crawl space?
Speaker 4: Who else do you have here? He was trying to
Speaker 4: feel the cops out to find out what they knew.
Speaker 4: Did they have Mike Rossi and David Cram, What did
Speaker 4: they tell them? You know, did they find bodies? Gasey
Speaker 4: was not a genius. He was a natural predator. He
Speaker 4: wasn't at the level of a genius wise is maybe
Speaker 4: an ath Holmes, but he was definitely a natural predator.
Speaker 4: So his actions didn't necessarily correspond with his intelligence. You know,
Speaker 4: he didn't even finish high school. But again, he was
Speaker 4: a cunning predator and that's what got him through all
Speaker 4: these things. So he knew he wasn't going to go
Speaker 4: in there and confess all these things. Even when he
Speaker 4: read his confessions, he doesn't confess everything. Says somethings somebodies. Yeah,
Speaker 4: here's what I did. I buried them down there. I
Speaker 4: showed them the handcuff trick and then the rope trick,
Speaker 4: and then they were dead. And they deserve to die.
Speaker 4: These kids just wanted money from me. They said they
Speaker 4: would tell others that I was gay and they would
Speaker 4: expose me. And that's why I killed them. And he
Speaker 4: would go back and forth with his reasonings. It's very
Speaker 4: difficult when you read the confession. It's not like, okay,
Speaker 4: it's not like a Dahmer. Here's what I did from
Speaker 4: day one to this victim, to all these victims, and
Speaker 4: hear their names. Here the detailed. But he wasn't like that.
Speaker 4: And then after that there were two other confessions that followed,
Speaker 4: one in the presence of his attorney, because as Geese's
Speaker 4: going on then he's trying to develop an insanity defense,
Speaker 4: trying to say, well, it wasn't me, it was the
Speaker 4: bad John, or it was Jack. That's one of my
Speaker 4: other personalities. Jack did these things. So there's that even
Speaker 4: at one point during the interrogation with his attorney there
Speaker 4: where the detective Mike Albrecht is saying Jack, well, hey, Jack,
Speaker 4: we're asking.
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Speaker 4: Question Jack and John Gasey doesn't respond, and then after
Speaker 4: that the have said, oh, hey, John, your attorney, you know,
Speaker 4: we want to ask you a question. Oh what So
Speaker 4: that blew it right out of the water right there.
Speaker 4: It was kind of too early for Gaycy to have
Speaker 4: the multiple personality aspect in the lives of that down
Speaker 4: pat because Gaycy was It's hard for people to imagine,
Speaker 4: but Gaysey was one hundred percent normal physically, and all
Speaker 4: the tests that were done on him, you know, as
Speaker 4: far as his brain and his body were concerned, came
Speaker 4: back fine.
Speaker 8: What was interesting, too, is his views on homosexuality. What
Speaker 8: were those.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a belief by many people that Gaysey hated
Speaker 4: himself for being homosexual. And when you do look back,
Speaker 4: the further you go back, especially when you're talking about
Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties in America, that was probably the worst
Speaker 4: time in American history, if there ever was, you know,
Speaker 4: or if it actually ended you know, I believe it
Speaker 4: still continues in a sense, but it wasn't as bad
Speaker 4: as it was in the fifties. That was the time
Speaker 4: period where basically you could be arrested for being gay.
Speaker 4: So here's Gasey growing up as a child and having
Speaker 4: these feelings attractions towards other men in the fifties and sixties,
Speaker 4: and it's being told, you know, by friends, family, churches, everyone,
Speaker 4: that it's abnorente and you know, you're freak. And obviously
Speaker 4: not to him directly because he hid it, but these
Speaker 4: are the signs of signals that he was getting from society.
Speaker 4: So he hit it just like he did throughout his
Speaker 4: entire life. So eventually, when he was arrested, he said
Speaker 4: that basically, you know, these young kids were scum. They
Speaker 4: were you know, gay prostitutes, just hustlers who wanted to
Speaker 4: get money out of him, and you know, like other people,
Speaker 4: you know, he just saw gays as being disgusting, even
Speaker 4: though he was one himself. So in the end, it's
Speaker 4: my belief that Gaycy was created by his father's hatred
Speaker 4: of gays, his father's physical and mental abuse on Jaycy,
Speaker 4: but also society. You know, society created this internalized hatred
Speaker 4: within John Dacy when society tells us that being gay
Speaker 4: is bad, and look at how it came about. Is
Speaker 4: that then you wonder that he buried his sex with
Speaker 4: his victims. He buried them just like he buried his
Speaker 4: being day.
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Speaker 8: In this book John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator, you
Speaker 8: include more details from this confession, things that I had
Speaker 8: not read previously in any book about John Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 8: and that being the idea that he called some of
Speaker 8: his murders doubles. And in this you include a document
Speaker 8: where it's graphic descriptions in the confession of what he
Speaker 8: does when he finds two young men and takes them home,
Speaker 8: and he said they wanted to have a good time,
Speaker 8: tell our audience a little bit about bringing two men
Speaker 8: home and the tricks that he does and the whore
Speaker 8: that these two men encounter with Gacy.
Speaker 4: So Gacy would pick up victims either alone or with
Speaker 4: another person or two. Again there you know, are unknowns.
Speaker 4: There are many unknowns in this case, and there may
Speaker 4: never be answers to them. But anyway, Gacy would pick
Speaker 4: up these young teenagers and say, hey, do you want
Speaker 4: have a good time. I got some weed. Look, I
Speaker 4: got some smoke here, and we could just go back
Speaker 4: to my place and play pool and relax. And you know,
Speaker 4: again you're talking about, you know, the seventies, and it
Speaker 4: was natural for kids to get in the cars with strangers,
Speaker 4: which is it still kind of shocks me because in
Speaker 4: the fifties and sixties you had this whole stranger danger thing,
Speaker 4: you know, which was actually created because of a serial
Speaker 4: killer named Albert Fish because he would kidnap and murder
Speaker 4: little children. So in the seventies, though anything went, you know,
Speaker 4: they'd hitch hike kids with hitch hike, they'd you know,
Speaker 4: there were no cell phones, be back before dark. They
Speaker 4: would be told by their parents or whatever it is,
Speaker 4: you know, So this was natural at that time period,
Speaker 4: swinging all these sex parties. So it's hard to put
Speaker 4: ourselves back in that time period, but that's the atmosphere.
Speaker 4: So anyway, sometimes Gacy would bring two victims back to
Speaker 4: his place, and in this one instance, Gasey talks about it,
Speaker 4: and he would call them double and the serial killers
Speaker 4: many would do doubles. Ted Bundy would do doubles sometimes,
Speaker 4: but what was unique about Gacy he actually did two
Speaker 4: at the same time, just in one night. So he
Speaker 4: brought these two young men back and started drinking and
Speaker 4: having some fun times with them, and he took one
Speaker 4: of the young men into his bedroom, murdered him in
Speaker 4: the bedroom, came out, and then did the handcuffed trick
Speaker 4: on the other kid that was there, and said, all right,
Speaker 4: come in the bedroom here. I'm going to show your
Speaker 4: friend I just killed him, and then he would kill
Speaker 4: the other kid. So and sometimes he would even murder
Speaker 4: one of these kids right in front of the other
Speaker 4: one because he would have them both in capacity with handcuffs.
Speaker 4: It's just an awful situation. And they knew he was
Speaker 4: telling the truth, Gacy because when they would go and
Speaker 4: excavate the crawl space as well, in my book, there's
Speaker 4: the excavation documents of all the bodies they found in
Speaker 4: the crawl space and on his property they would find
Speaker 4: two bodies, one on top of another. So it was true.
Speaker 8: What are the some of the things in the excavation
Speaker 8: that they found, again just chilling corroboration of things like
Speaker 8: the strangulation. What are some of the things they found,
Speaker 8: like in mouth concerning the rope? Tell us some of
Speaker 8: the things that they did find.
Speaker 4: There was one body. There's a slide that was given
Speaker 4: to me by someone on the prosecution team and actually
Speaker 4: allowed me to use this in the film, and it's
Speaker 4: a shot of one of the bodies space with all
Speaker 4: the dirt removed from around the body and around the skull.
Speaker 4: Still around the neck is the rope, the ligature that
Speaker 4: Gacy used to choke them to death, and you could
Speaker 4: still see the loops in the rope. That's the evidence
Speaker 4: right there. So when it came to trial, as much
Speaker 4: as Gasey wanted to prove that he was insane, there
Speaker 4: was so much evidence that was actually still contained on
Speaker 4: the bodies. And also many of the bodies had underwear
Speaker 4: or rags stuffed down their throats and when they excavated
Speaker 4: the bodies, that underwear or the rags were still in
Speaker 4: that area around their throats. Whether it was skeletonized or
Speaker 4: if there was still issue remaining, they still found these
Speaker 4: rags and underwear in their throats. Now, there are several
Speaker 4: different theories behind that, one of them of which Gacy said,
Speaker 4: one of his victims early on, Gacy had stored inside
Speaker 4: his closet and left the body upside down and blood
Speaker 4: leaked out of the mouth or part of the body
Speaker 4: onto the right. So Gacy learned from that, and supposedly
Speaker 4: he started stuffing rags or underwear in the mouths of
Speaker 4: his victims wouldn't leak anymore. Now, another theory is that
Speaker 4: he learned that at this morgue when he worked at
Speaker 4: a morgue in Las Vegas when he was younger. But
Speaker 4: the other theory, which kind of also makes a lot
Speaker 4: more sense to me, is that he was living in
Speaker 4: this quiet suburban neighborhood. He was living in Norwood Park Township,
Speaker 4: which was near Park Ridge, where his attorney's office was.
Speaker 4: And when I filmed that these locations that night, you
Speaker 4: could hear a pin drop, even though they're Narrowhair Airport
Speaker 4: if a plane isn't flying overhead, there's no one out
Speaker 4: in the streets. It's quite as a mouse out there.
Speaker 4: So I believe that Gacy also stuffed these you know,
Speaker 4: rags down their throats to keep neighbors from hearing them
Speaker 4: screaming while he was torturing them.
Speaker 8: Incredible something I read, and there's so much I've learned
Speaker 8: from this book, talk about Gaysey complained to a friend
Speaker 8: that they had taken his books, and he said, oh,
Speaker 8: there were Playboy, there were smut magazines, there were books.
Speaker 8: But he also says in the confession that he used
Speaker 8: the books, some of the books for psychological torture for
Speaker 8: his victims. Can you tell us any more about those
Speaker 8: books at all?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, there there were many many books that
Speaker 4: you know, Gacy had had, and these were found when
Speaker 4: investigators went in. But these books were hidden, you know,
Speaker 4: whether they were in his attic or his second wife
Speaker 4: even found some of these gay magazines that he had
Speaker 4: laying around. Gacy would read some of these books where
Speaker 4: young Gavin were tortured or abused, and he would actually
Speaker 4: take a lot of that information that he learned and
Speaker 4: used it on his victims. Now, what's interesting is there
Speaker 4: were living victims. So that's the strange conundrum that Gacy
Speaker 4: actually let some of his victims go. And the belief
Speaker 4: behind that is is that he may have let some
Speaker 4: of the victims go who may not have posed a threat. So,
Speaker 4: in other words, if there were victims that said, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm going to go to the cops and I'm going
Speaker 4: to tell everyone that I know that you're gay and
Speaker 4: that you raped me, these were the ones that he
Speaker 4: would most likely murder. Who knows, you know, you know, again,
Speaker 4: there are some answers we may never know the actual
Speaker 4: truth behind you know, Gacy's actions.
Speaker 8: He also said that some people came by gave him
Speaker 8: a tough luck story and he felt sorry for them
Speaker 8: and even gave him some money, So they luckily weren't
Speaker 8: desirable to him at least that evening.
Speaker 4: And you know, that's that's kind of the strange duality
Speaker 4: about serial killers. Not only cam they hold a normal,
Speaker 4: supposed normal life and do these murders, but strangely enough,
Speaker 4: they may be compassionate at times. Now, you know, there
Speaker 4: was this theory about serial killers that they were either firestarters,
Speaker 4: or they wet their beds, or they're cruel to animals. Well,
Speaker 4: Gacy had animals when he was younger, He had a
Speaker 4: dog when he was arrested. He was never cruel to animals.
Speaker 4: Interestingly enough, you know, when you look at Dennis Raider,
Speaker 4: the BTK killer, before he murdered one of his victims,
Speaker 4: he put a pillow under their head to make them comfortable. Now,
Speaker 4: you know, how do you me? It's impossible to look
Speaker 4: get you know, the serial killer doing their actions. But
Speaker 4: at the same time, you know they either have children themselves.
Speaker 4: Look at Elbert Fish. He never swarked his grandchildren or
Speaker 4: his children, or never you know, laid a hand on
Speaker 4: them to you know, punish them. But you're talking about
Speaker 4: a man who would kidnap little children, murder them, and
Speaker 4: cannibalize them. And this is that weird conundrum with serial
Speaker 4: killers that yes, they are maybe capable of compassion, but
Speaker 4: they're also capable of, you know, some of the most
Speaker 4: despicable actions ever committed by human beings.
Speaker 8: Yes, certainly interestingly too, this searched through the crawl space
Speaker 8: and which took days and numerous bodies were coming up,
Speaker 8: but it was a laborers effort to be able to
Speaker 8: unearth this and eventually it's like you say, chisel and
Speaker 8: hammer to be able to break up cement and get
Speaker 8: to the final bodies. Gacy really wasn't much help, like
Speaker 8: you say, It wasn't like some serial killers in knowing
Speaker 8: all of the details and keeping detailed records. So they
Speaker 8: had to identify them through the methods that they had,
Speaker 8: like clothing that matched, you know, the identification from those
Speaker 8: reported missing. How many victims were identified and how many unidentified?
Speaker 4: Obviously, yeah, they weren't down in the crawl space with spoons.
Speaker 4: I mean, they were doing a meticulous job down there,
Speaker 4: and you know, they had found other bodies on his property.
Speaker 4: There was one in the under the garage, there was
Speaker 4: one under the driveway. You know, so even months later
Speaker 4: after the excavation of his crawl space, they were still
Speaker 4: finding bodies. You know, initially there were nine unknown victims.
Speaker 4: So how they identified the victims were either through dental
Speaker 4: records and if they didn't have those, what they did
Speaker 4: was they took all of the evidence that was either
Speaker 4: in Gacy's house or with the victims, jewelry, clothing, and
Speaker 4: they had you know, they put out a press release
Speaker 4: to the newspapers that said if anyone has a missing
Speaker 4: relative or loved one, you could come and look at
Speaker 4: these items to see. Some even came and said, yeah,
Speaker 4: those belonged to my son, and they found their son
Speaker 4: alive later again one of the living victims. So in
Speaker 4: the initial case, there were nine victims that were not identified,
Speaker 4: but the case was reopened several years ago. So now
Speaker 4: the case is open and ongoing and the Cook County
Speaker 4: Sheriff's Department is in charge. Lieutenant Jason Moran is doing
Speaker 4: a phenomenal job and he has identified three of the
Speaker 4: nine which were unidentified, so there are six more still
Speaker 4: to be identified. He even found victims that were alive,
Speaker 4: and he found victims that were deceased unrelated to the
Speaker 4: Gaycy case. So you know, again, people say, why are
Speaker 4: you releasing books and documentaries on John Wayne Gacy forty
Speaker 4: years after the case. Well, this is a perfect example.
Speaker 4: If there's anything that could be gleaned or learned about
Speaker 4: either Gaycy, his psychology, or finding some of these victims
Speaker 4: that weren't identified, all of that is important.
Speaker 8: Yeah, certainly. This trial started in February sixth, nineteen eighty Rockford, Illinois.
Speaker 8: The rob Piece murder case seventy nine prosecution witnesses as
Speaker 8: you write, twenty two defense witnesses, and trial ended March twelfth,
Speaker 8: nineteen eighty, with a two hour deliberation by the jury.
Speaker 8: He had fled not guilty. How serious the defense was this?
Speaker 8: And you don't really have this in the documents, But
Speaker 8: was his defense this split personality? I obviously veryd by it.
Speaker 8: But what was it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: That was that was the defense, the split personality. That's
Speaker 4: what they were trying to stick to. They brought in,
Speaker 4: you know, an army of experts to testify to that
Speaker 4: that he was an of sound mind. You know, it
Speaker 4: was several aspects, the split personality, that he was an
Speaker 4: of sound mind, that because of the split personality, and
Speaker 4: they kind of blamed a little on the drugs and
Speaker 4: alcohol that he wasn't really of sound mind. That was
Speaker 4: the you know, but the prosecution, they had all of
Speaker 4: the evidence from all of their witnesses that showed he
Speaker 4: was of a sound mind when he picked he stuck
Speaker 4: at the pharmacy, you know, all the witnesses that were there,
Speaker 4: the evidence, like I said, the body with the rope
Speaker 4: still around its neck. You know, there was no way
Speaker 4: and even after Gacy was found guilty for fourteen years.
Speaker 4: He was trying to appeal that. It's just as we discussed,
Speaker 4: you know, in a sense, I wished he could have
Speaker 4: been like a Damer and told the truth, because in
Speaker 4: a sense, Gacy could have made himself to be out
Speaker 4: the most evil human being serial killer that ever lived.
Speaker 4: But for whatever reason, probably trying to get appeals, he
Speaker 4: took back his confessions and never admitted to it, you know,
Speaker 4: until his you know, even to his nine day.
Speaker 8: He had an interesting life behind bars, and people know
Speaker 8: a little bit about it, at least in terms of
Speaker 8: they've heard that he's an artist of some degree. I
Speaker 8: guess a little bit about this. Some of the documents
Speaker 8: that you provide, the letters that you provide that demonstrate
Speaker 8: this life after conviction behind bars.
Speaker 4: To me, Gaycy was the first true serial killer celebrity.
Speaker 4: And you talk about it now, and you know, many
Speaker 4: of these other serial killers and criminals have reached that
Speaker 4: level of stardom, But if you think about it, before
Speaker 4: John Wayne Gacy, people were fascinated by true crime, but
Speaker 4: no one had reached the level of celebrity that John
Speaker 4: Wayne Gacy did. In addition to painting and selling paintings
Speaker 4: and having a business out of his prison, celum in
Speaker 4: Our prison. Gacy also had a nine hundred number where
Speaker 4: people could call into the nine hundred number and listen
Speaker 4: to Gacy talking about the reasons why he was not guilty,
Speaker 4: disputing all the evidence in the case. And he also
Speaker 4: had people that would write him and visit him. And
Speaker 4: then when you would visit him, the guards were outside,
Speaker 4: a sell would take a forward picture of you with
Speaker 4: Gacy and they would charge you a dollar for the photo.
Speaker 4: Everyone once Gaysey was in prison, and everyone was making
Speaker 4: money off Gaysy, the entire prosecution and defense team. It
Speaker 4: was all about money. Now, Sam Amaranti has a new
Speaker 4: documentary based on his book. Everyone involved in the case
Speaker 4: wrote a book. So it's interesting that after Gaysey was apprehended,
Speaker 4: everyone was earning money off of John Wayne Gacy. Years
Speaker 4: later they pooh pooh murdered Billiam the people that collect
Speaker 4: this stuff. But when you go further back, when you
Speaker 4: think about it, was really all the attorneys that were
Speaker 4: you know, and law enforcement personnel that were the originators
Speaker 4: of you know, writing books and true crime kind of
Speaker 4: you know research.
Speaker 8: There was an incredible amount of I guess source documents
Speaker 8: and then there's photocopies of that, but also things that
Speaker 8: like the birth certificate tell us some of the incredible,
Speaker 8: unique things that are contained in this book. Just for
Speaker 8: the person that thinks they've seen everything about Gaycy and
Speaker 8: just wants to know more, what is included in this
Speaker 8: book incredibly you know.
Speaker 4: What's included in this book is the higher surveillance documents.
Speaker 4: What has also included are the interviews with David Cram
Speaker 4: and Michael Rossi, the evidence lists of all the evidence
Speaker 4: and vehicles which were in Gaisey's house and his possession,
Speaker 4: the evidence technician reports on the excavation, so the evidence
Speaker 4: technicians made meticulous notes on each body and how it
Speaker 4: was discovered and the state of the body. The official
Speaker 4: Statement of the Facts which was used in the opening
Speaker 4: of the court case by the prosecution. Letters to Gacy
Speaker 4: which people would write to him in prison show what
Speaker 4: you know how much of a serial killer celebrity he was?
Speaker 4: And another birth in dust certificates, but also Gaysey's completed
Speaker 4: bio review. So when people would write Gaysy imprison, it
Speaker 4: isn't pretty interesting too, and I heard demons rating does
Speaker 4: this as well. So when people would write Gaisy in prison,
Speaker 4: the first thing Gasey would do is he would send
Speaker 4: you this blank questionnaire which would includes questions like what's
Speaker 4: your favorite color, what's your favorite sports team? But they
Speaker 4: also included what's your favorite sex position? Oh, of these
Speaker 4: other you know, little sexual innuendo questions, but Gasey filled
Speaker 4: one out himself, you know. And so when you read
Speaker 4: my book, it's in there. And surprisingly one of his
Speaker 4: favorite songs is Send in the Clowns.
Speaker 8: Also he talks about his favorite TV shows, which is
Speaker 8: Unsolved Mysteries and movies Goodfellas and Ten Commandments. His hobbies
Speaker 8: are oil painting and study of human interest. And his
Speaker 8: regrets are being so trusting and gullible. And oh his
Speaker 8: fears were dying before clearing his name with the truth,
Speaker 8: so very interesting.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, exactly, you know he you know, till his
Speaker 4: dying day, Gaithy always made himself out to be the victim,
Speaker 4: you know, and he wrote he even wrote a book
Speaker 4: in prison, you know, which he made himself out to
Speaker 4: be the so called thirty fourth victim where he was
Speaker 4: innocent and he didn't do any of these things.
Speaker 8: So there have been rumors, and you include this as well,
Speaker 8: about this infamous Ripper Crew from Chicago area. Tell us
Speaker 8: about that investigation per se into the Ripper Crew had
Speaker 8: any connection to John Wayne Gacy whatsoever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Ripper Crew was a team of I believe
Speaker 4: three or four members were murdering, abducting, torturing and murdering
Speaker 4: women throughout the Chicago land area. And this was just
Speaker 4: after Gaysey was apprehended. So one of the members of
Speaker 4: the Ripper Crew, I think it was Cork Allen, he
Speaker 4: had said something like, well, yeah, at least we weren't
Speaker 4: like Gaycy. You know, we didn't keep all our victims
Speaker 4: under our house. That just that one statement led to
Speaker 4: this urban legend, this myth that one of the members
Speaker 4: of the Ripper Crew, his name was Robin Gett. The
Speaker 4: myth is that he had at one time worked for
Speaker 4: Gaysey in the past and may have helped him with
Speaker 4: the murders. Well, it's false, it never happened. So in
Speaker 4: my researches, one of my friends, Bruce la Man, who
Speaker 4: runs a psych called Killer's Cross Space, he had a
Speaker 4: letter from Robin Gett, and basically Robin get states in
Speaker 4: this letter that he was unequivocally never employed by Gaycy
Speaker 4: and he never knew gay Sy, nor worked for him,
Speaker 4: nor met Gaycy, so that puts an end to it.
Speaker 4: But you know, people like these urban legends of myth
Speaker 4: and they'll still say that it happened, you know. And
Speaker 4: I'm still working on getting Robin get to, you know,
Speaker 4: talk to me on audio for my film version, because
Speaker 4: I'm obviously, you know, doing a film and miniseries too,
Speaker 4: and I'm referencing my own book. So as I'm working
Speaker 4: on my film and miniseries, I'm continually looking into my
Speaker 4: own book for all the evidence and research information.
Speaker 8: Tell us a little bit more about this movie adaptation
Speaker 8: film adaptation.
Speaker 4: Initially, I went into the Gaycy case wanting to create
Speaker 4: a film based on Gaysey's life, because primarily I do
Speaker 4: documentary films and it usually puts a serial killer's life
Speaker 4: under a microscope, from their birth to their execution, their
Speaker 4: entire life. Well, as I was producing the Gaycy documentary,
Speaker 4: there was so much material, and of course since I'm
Speaker 4: in Chicago and from Chicago, It's a little bit easier
Speaker 4: for me to access people and locations, and so I
Speaker 4: have a wealth of material and what was initially going
Speaker 4: to be a film has turned into a mini series,
Speaker 4: because I have at least enough material for a minimum
Speaker 4: of four to six hours to complete a mini series.
Speaker 4: But right when the COVID nineteen hit, I was nearing
Speaker 4: the end of production, so there are still people and
Speaker 4: locations which I have to interview for the mini series.
Speaker 4: But I do have enough to release that at least
Speaker 4: like a film as a little teaser of the mini series.
Speaker 4: So I figured, well, while I have material, I might
Speaker 4: as well be productive and hopefully you know by this August.
Speaker 4: The intention is to release a ninety minute film which
Speaker 4: concentrates on the house, the murders, the excavation, but at
Speaker 4: the beginning and the end of the film there'll be
Speaker 4: two to three minutes. It's as a prologue and an
Speaker 4: epilogue which kind of shows what came before and after,
Speaker 4: which kind of gives hints to the scope of the
Speaker 4: miniseriies and how much information there is before and after
Speaker 4: the house was discovered.
Speaker 8: Yeah, incredible, and and this case really does warrant as
Speaker 8: much coverage as possible. It's such a fascinating case. It's
Speaker 8: one of the most interesting cases to me. When I
Speaker 8: did read Terry Sullivan's book years and years ago, I
Speaker 8: just couldn't believe the magnitude of John Wayne Gacy and
Speaker 8: his crimes, and so, like you say, very much like yourself,
Speaker 8: I was a big horror fan, but when I would
Speaker 8: read things like that, I realized that this was certainly
Speaker 8: true horror, and it certainly had everything on nonfiction much
Speaker 8: stranger than fiction by a long shot.
Speaker 4: So that's what I'd like to focus on for the
Speaker 4: film version. The horror, the house, the bodies, you know,
Speaker 4: all of that. But then, like I said, imagine watching
Speaker 4: that but then being able to later, maybe next year,
Speaker 4: to watch a four to six hour mini series that tells, oh,
Speaker 4: here's his past, here are the reasons why he may
Speaker 4: have did these things. Growing up gay with so much negativity,
Speaker 4: and then what comes after being a celebrity. And I've
Speaker 4: got great interviews Walter Jacobson, who was one of the
Speaker 4: only people to interview Gacy, amp Minard, I have him
Speaker 4: on camera, Karen Conti, Gaysey's last attorney, Bill Kunkle, the
Speaker 4: prosecutor in the case, the two detectives, the surveillance detectives.
Speaker 4: You know, so many people, and you know, it's just
Speaker 4: it's going to be great, And I'm glad that there
Speaker 4: is so much interest, because when I do my conventions
Speaker 4: or lectures, you know, sometimes people come up to me
Speaker 4: and say, oh, we're worried about our daughter or some
Speaker 4: because they're fascinated by the stuff, and I tell them, no,
Speaker 4: nourish that because there are future law enforcement officers, judges,
Speaker 4: forensic psychologists. We're doing this so we can try and
Speaker 4: figure out what makes these people pick. I don't focus
Speaker 4: on the sensationalism and the gore. It's all about their
Speaker 4: psychology and the methods that they detective used to apprehend
Speaker 4: and convict these criminals.
Speaker 8: Yes, it's extraordinary the minds of serial killers, but also
Speaker 8: the minds and motivations of these dedicated law enforcement professionals
Speaker 8: to persist until they get an arrest like this and
Speaker 8: then truly, this was a task force extraordinary in an
Speaker 8: historic investigation, true crime investigation, wasn't it.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it was very historic, you know, first time,
Speaker 4: very historic. And you know, even now when you think
Speaker 4: about what the Sheriff's Department is doing and they're successfully
Speaker 4: doing it, looking back at a case forty years ago
Speaker 4: and still trying to identify these six unknown victims, I
Speaker 4: mean that to me is almost impossible. But they're doing it.
Speaker 8: Yes, very honorable, honorable pursuit. I want to thank you
Speaker 8: very much John Barrowski for talking about John Wayne Gacy
Speaker 8: Hunting a Predator to pursuit, arrest and confession. It's been
Speaker 8: fascinating for those that might want to take a look
Speaker 8: at the other work that we mentioned. Do you have
Speaker 8: a website the Facebook page? Tell us a little bit
Speaker 8: more about that.
Speaker 4: If you'd like to check out my films. All of
Speaker 4: my films are streaming on the Amazon Prime so films
Speaker 4: like AJ Holmes, Albert fish kyl Panzram, Serial Killer Culture,
Speaker 4: my show, serial Killer Culture TV, those around the Amazon
Speaker 4: Crime and the best place to purchase products for me
Speaker 4: my store which is store dot John Borowski dot com
Speaker 4: or my site which is just my name John Borowski
Speaker 4: dot com.
Speaker 8: Wow, that's great. Thank you very much, John Barowski for
Speaker 8: John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. We have a great evening.
Speaker 4: Thank you Dan for having me on good Night.
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