Speaker 1: Full trial audio.
Speaker 2: Everything hurt in court, no silences to skip. Good morning,
Speaker 2: you're on America.
Speaker 3: Yes, please?
Speaker 2: Today we have all right.
Speaker 4: Well, good morning council, morning, Miss Clancy.
Speaker 3: All right, a ca se council side by.
Speaker 5: Please, hey, hey all Russon is having anything to do
Speaker 5: for the AUDI?
Speaker 2: Will you result just the spirit then you shall be
Speaker 2: heard of Massachusetts. This is down session.
Speaker 3: Please be seated.
Speaker 6: Good morning, you're on americacy, yes, please want to be
Speaker 6: for the court. Today we have the continuation of the
Speaker 6: Germany trial in the matter of commwealth for us as
Speaker 6: Lindsay Clancy. Miss Clancy is present. She is represented by
Speaker 6: Attorney Kevin Ruddington. The Karmawealth is represented by Assistant District
Speaker 6: Attorney Jennifer Sprague, an assistant district attorney she had.
Speaker 2: At lacking hand.
Speaker 7: Well, good morning, everyone finds out today a little nicer
Speaker 7: weather for us.
Speaker 4: Open was nice if you're coming in here today.
Speaker 7: So what I'm going to do is ask you those
Speaker 7: questions as I always do, and then I'll go over
Speaker 7: a little bit the schedule and then we'll return to
Speaker 7: the Cormwall's case. All right, So the first question, it's
Speaker 7: probably got to memorized by now anyway, But let me
Speaker 7: ask it, as any member of the jury red scene
Speaker 7: heard or overheard anything from any source about any aspect
Speaker 7: of this case, it would affect your ability to be
Speaker 7: fair and impartial. Last question, is there any other matter,
Speaker 7: a serious matter or concern bearing on your service as
Speaker 7: adjur in this case that anybody needs to bring my
Speaker 7: attention this time?
Speaker 4: Again, thank you for following those instructions.
Speaker 7: Now in regards to the schedule, if you remember, I
Speaker 7: said yesterday that sometimes we have to adjust on the fly,
Speaker 7: and that's going to be my call. Well, we may
Speaker 7: have to do that a little bit, all right, So
Speaker 7: today we're going to go through some cases up. We
Speaker 7: may break a little bit early today, all right, and
Speaker 7: now and then tomorrow, Uh, there is a matter I'm
Speaker 7: gonna have to talk to counsel pretty much in that
Speaker 7: in the afternoon. So the thought is tomorrow the plan
Speaker 7: for you should be uh pretty much nine to one,
Speaker 7: all right, and then the afternoon I'm gonna deal with
Speaker 7: counsel in regards to some other issues that will I
Speaker 7: believe I keep this case going, uh well on track,
Speaker 7: and that's kind of where we are.
Speaker 4: So I just kind of wanted to give you that update.
Speaker 7: So that's, like I said, the best we could do
Speaker 7: give you as much notice in regards to that.
Speaker 4: But if we will, you will not. I say, wait,
Speaker 4: you will not be sitting here tomorrow afternoon.
Speaker 3: We may be uh and so.
Speaker 4: Uh So with that we're gonna do is continue with
Speaker 4: the Camwell's case.
Speaker 3: We're gonna go back.
Speaker 4: Uh come up, call you next witness.
Speaker 3: Please thank you.
Speaker 2: The Commonwealth would called Sina Garbier.
Speaker 4: Good morning, good morning, sir.
Speaker 2: All right, Bucky, please thank you, good morning, good morning.
Speaker 2: Could you please tell the jury your first and last name,
Speaker 2: Christina Carpio and can you spell your last name for
Speaker 2: the record, c.
Speaker 8: Arps and Peter Io.
Speaker 2: And what do you do for work?
Speaker 8: I am a general surgeon trained in trauma and critical care.
Speaker 2: And where do you currently work.
Speaker 8: I'm hired by Brigham, but I work at Salshore Hospital.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about your educational background.
Speaker 8: I completed medical school and then went to general surgery
Speaker 8: residency for five years at Columbia Presbyterian. I then did
Speaker 8: two additional years of trauma and surgical critical care at Yale,
Speaker 8: and then I've been working for Brigham and Selshare Hospital.
Speaker 8: Since twenty sixteen, and.
Speaker 2: Explain to us how it is that you work for
Speaker 2: both Brigham and Selshare Hospital as a trauma surgeon.
Speaker 8: Brigham has many physicians of all specialties who are at
Speaker 8: Soultual Hospital. At one point, I think there was a
Speaker 8: merger attempted between the two institutions. Either way, my salary
Speaker 8: comes from Brigham, but I work only at Soushore Hospital.
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's kind of my follow up question. Generally,
Speaker 2: your day to day work is at the Cetual Hospital
Speaker 2: in Weymouth, that's correct? And what kind of hospital? What
Speaker 2: level hospital? Trauma level hospital? Is the south Shore Hospital
Speaker 2: a level two? And so if there are cases that
Speaker 2: come in that need more acute care, are they generally
Speaker 2: sent over to a hospital in Boston like the Brigham.
Speaker 8: Yes, depending sometimes we get input from the subspecialists to
Speaker 8: guide that decision.
Speaker 2: And as far as your role as a trauma surgeon,
Speaker 2: do you actually do surgeries at the Sosher Hospital.
Speaker 8: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three. Were you working at the Cecial
Speaker 2: hospital that day?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 2: And what was your role that day?
Speaker 8: I was the on call surgeon. I was physically in
Speaker 8: the hospital working.
Speaker 2: At some point in the evening hours. Were you advised
Speaker 2: that a patient was being transported to the Susher emergency
Speaker 2: room as a level one Yes? And so when you
Speaker 2: are advised of that level of trauma or your advice
Speaker 2: of a critical patient coming into the emergency department, what
Speaker 2: do you do?
Speaker 8: There are guidelines for how quickly we have to be
Speaker 8: present in the emergency room, because I'm also operating times,
Speaker 8: I may be in the operating room when that notification happens.
Speaker 2: So, in this particular case, when a patient, a female
Speaker 2: patient by the name of Lindsay Clancy, was coming into
Speaker 2: the emergency department, were you able to go down to
Speaker 2: the emergency department as part of the assessment team?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And who were you working with from the emergency department
Speaker 2: in this.
Speaker 8: Case, doctor Kelly McDonough.
Speaker 2: Now, is that a common thing that you collaborate with
Speaker 2: the emergency room doctors or nurses and technicians in a
Speaker 2: situation like this?
Speaker 10: Yes.
Speaker 2: Did you have information that came in through the EMS
Speaker 2: or the paramedics about the nature of the patient's condition.
Speaker 8: I recall that we were told it was a fall
Speaker 8: of unclear mechanism from a height of about twenty feet.
Speaker 2: And where you advised that there was the possibility of
Speaker 2: maybe neurological deficits or some serious final injury. Yes, And
Speaker 2: as a result of that information, did that inform your
Speaker 2: trauma assessment?
Speaker 8: It was already activated as a level one, that's the
Speaker 8: highest mechanism when there is concern for a height from
Speaker 8: a certain of a fall from a height of a
Speaker 8: certain level and with possible neurological injury.
Speaker 2: So we're members of the neurology department also part of
Speaker 2: that trauma assessment team.
Speaker 8: No, okay.
Speaker 2: As far as your assessment, did you go and physically
Speaker 2: physically see the patient make observations?
Speaker 10: Yes?
Speaker 2: Did you observe her in the emergency department to be intubated.
Speaker 8: Shortly after arrival? She was intubated, so.
Speaker 2: That was done by the staff at suchral hospital to
Speaker 2: your knowledge.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And did you observe injuries to her neck and her wrists?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Did you evaluate those to determine whether they needed an
Speaker 2: immediate surgical intervention?
Speaker 8: Yes? Did they No, they were superficial.
Speaker 2: And as far as additional tests to assess whether there's
Speaker 2: any other surgical intervention that's needed, are you aware that
Speaker 2: CT scans were ordered?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And are you aware what areas of the body they
Speaker 2: were ordered for.
Speaker 8: We did pant scan, which means we scan the head,
Speaker 8: the neck, the chest, and the abdomen pelvis.
Speaker 2: As far as your physical observations of the patient, did
Speaker 2: you observe any obvious injuries to her head area like abrasions, confusions, fractures.
Speaker 8: There were lacerations to her neck, okay, But as far
Speaker 8: as the rest of her head or around her like.
Speaker 2: Face.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 2: When those CT scans were done, were you able to
Speaker 2: review the information that came from them, Yes? And as
Speaker 2: far as those CT scans, you're aware that there was
Speaker 2: a head CT scan or two head CT scans, one
Speaker 2: with contrast durn one without and as were you aware
Speaker 2: that the findings were there no definite acute intercranial findings
Speaker 2: on the non contrast enhanced head CT, Yes, and there
Speaker 2: were no significant findings on the contrast head CT correct.
Speaker 8: The head CT with contrast was what we call an
Speaker 8: Andrewgram head and neck. So it's ordered in two parts
Speaker 8: and has two reports. At the time of the note
Speaker 8: of the documentation that was performed, we had the report
Speaker 8: back on the head section, but neck was not completed
Speaker 8: at that time?
Speaker 2: Okay? Was there eventually a completed andigrim of the neck
Speaker 2: area at Selfsha Hospital?
Speaker 8: The images were done, the report was completed. I don't
Speaker 8: know the timeline of when the report came in compared
Speaker 8: to when the patient was transferred.
Speaker 2: So as far as your initial assessment in that trauma
Speaker 2: assessment period or that wasn't information you had available to
Speaker 2: you about the neck findings correct?
Speaker 8: The angio neck findings correct.
Speaker 2: And that's different from other CT scans on the cervical
Speaker 2: spine and other areas of the spine. Is that fair
Speaker 2: to say? Yes, that's correct. As the trauma surgeon evaluating
Speaker 2: this case, did you identify that there were some serious
Speaker 2: spinal injuries to the cervical and thoracic areas?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Did any of those require you to intervene with surgical intervention?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 2: Do you recall making note that while in the emergency
Speaker 2: department the patient became hypertensive and that she was identified
Speaker 2: as being hypothermic to eighty two point one degrees?
Speaker 8: I remember that she was hypothermic in when I reviewed
Speaker 8: my documentation, she was The two numbers I saw on
Speaker 8: my note were normal values of blood pressure, not high values,
Speaker 8: not hyper tension.
Speaker 2: Okay, if I may approach you just with one of
Speaker 2: the pages from the notes radio review, you can just
Speaker 2: tell me if.
Speaker 8: I, oh, no problem, which.
Speaker 2: Towards the bottom, the last second to last paragraph.
Speaker 8: Oh, she was sorry. She was hypertensive, which means low
Speaker 8: blood pressure, different from hyper tension, which is high blood pressure.
Speaker 8: Ok yeah, sorry, yeah, no, no, not at all.
Speaker 2: But as as far as thermit that, you recall that
Speaker 2: she was at a very low core body temperature.
Speaker 8: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: And do you know what was done to raise her
Speaker 2: body temperature.
Speaker 8: We raised the temperature in the trauma room to be
Speaker 8: able to raise her body temperature. That's usually our first
Speaker 8: line of intervention.
Speaker 2: And do you also have available to you at the
Speaker 2: Selsha Hospital what's called the bear hugger or some sort
Speaker 2: of blanket or wrappings that you can wrap around an
Speaker 2: individual to try to get their body temperature up.
Speaker 8: Yes, we have that.
Speaker 2: And at some point her body temperature did come up
Speaker 2: to ninety five point two degrees correct, yes, And based
Speaker 2: on your observations of her, did anything change about those
Speaker 2: lacerations that you observed once her body temperature was up
Speaker 2: that warranted some surgical intervention of those injuries. No, what
Speaker 2: was the ultimate recommendation for the care of this patient?
Speaker 8: She had complex fractures in her spine at the thoracic level.
Speaker 8: We conferred with our neurosurgery colleague who was on call,
Speaker 8: who recommended transfer to a tertiary hospital.
Speaker 2: And so where did this patient go? Brig them? Now,
Speaker 2: you identified that your hospital is a level two trauma correct. Yes,
Speaker 2: after fully reviewing this patient, did you agree that this
Speaker 2: was the level one trauma situation?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 2: Are you able to do surgical intervention for these particular
Speaker 2: injuries that you observed on this patient at Selsher Hospital?
Speaker 8: The spinal injuries require input from our neurosurgical team.
Speaker 2: And there was none available to you at the Cush Hospital.
Speaker 8: We did contact the on call neurosurgeon because we are
Speaker 8: a level two trauma center. They don't they are not
Speaker 8: required to be physically present in the hospital, but they
Speaker 8: were immediately available and they can remotely review images.
Speaker 2: So I guess my question is why didn't you do
Speaker 2: any surgeries regarding those injuries at Selsha Hospital? Why did
Speaker 2: you recommend the care to tertiary hospital?
Speaker 8: Flex level spinal injuries was deemed necessary for transfer by
Speaker 8: our neuro surgery colleague.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you.
Speaker 3: Be reading to.
Speaker 8: Good Morning.
Speaker 3: Just a few questions.
Speaker 5: So Self Shoe Hospital and you made reference to as
Speaker 5: being a trauma hospital and the injuries suffered by Lindsay
Speaker 5: were at level one.
Speaker 3: Is that what it was? Yes, it's correct, that would
Speaker 3: be the highest level, is that right?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: What time?
Speaker 5: If you remember what time approximately was she admitted to
Speaker 5: Self Shoe Hospital.
Speaker 8: The word admission means that she would have remained there
Speaker 8: as a patient, so she was never formally admitted for
Speaker 8: the time that she was brought in by EMS. I
Speaker 8: would have to refer to that information from the record.
Speaker 5: Do you have an idea as to how long she
Speaker 5: was at your hospital?
Speaker 8: Likely several hours, but again I would have to see
Speaker 8: the specifics in the charts. There's documentation with the MS
Speaker 8: for arrival and for when transfer to Brigham.
Speaker 5: Okay, And at some point it was decided that she
Speaker 5: would be transferred to Boston, right, Yes, Brigham a woman's hospital. Yes,
Speaker 5: And it was decided by someone that they weren't going
Speaker 5: to put her in an ambulance for that transport, right.
Speaker 8: I would have to look at the record for what
Speaker 8: was the method of transfer to do.
Speaker 5: You do you know how she was transferred by helicopter midflight?
Speaker 8: I don't know, because MedFlight can also all MedFlight covers
Speaker 8: two modes of transportation MedFlight ambulance and midflight helicopter.
Speaker 5: Do you know that she was midflight helicopter to Boston?
Speaker 8: I don't know that.
Speaker 3: And the time that.
Speaker 5: She left was after you all had provided the treatment
Speaker 5: that you were able to provide to Lindsay as.
Speaker 3: A patient, right, yes, and you reached the end of
Speaker 3: eu rope.
Speaker 5: She had to be transferred because she needed immediate high
Speaker 5: level medical care, right.
Speaker 8: She needed higher level of care, higher level.
Speaker 3: Of care, and.
Speaker 5: As a result, she was then brought to Brigham a
Speaker 5: women's hospital. Now, the treatment that you had given would
Speaker 5: include raising her apparently temperature, I guess, because she came
Speaker 5: in at a low temperature, right, yes?
Speaker 3: And did you use IV fluids?
Speaker 8: I would have to check the record, but that is
Speaker 8: a intervention.
Speaker 5: So your memory would be that you believe that you
Speaker 5: used IV fluids, But you'd have to have me get
Speaker 5: out of the box and check the record to ask
Speaker 5: that question.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, correct, Okay, it.
Speaker 5: Didn't really work out very well though, did it because
Speaker 5: you know that when she was brought to Boston, after
Speaker 5: all of the time that she was treated at your hospital,
Speaker 5: she was still core temperature of eighty two when she
Speaker 5: hit Brigham and Woman's.
Speaker 8: Loud if she knows, I did not look at the
Speaker 8: medical record from another institution. I only reviewed my note
Speaker 8: from Safshore Hospital.
Speaker 5: Did you know that your patient had coded shortly after
Speaker 5: being brought to Brigham a women's hospital?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 5: Did you know that she had to have massive transfusions
Speaker 5: right after being brought to the hospital in Boston?
Speaker 10: No?
Speaker 5: Did anybody in sub Show hospital make a determination that
Speaker 5: she had lost a lot of blood?
Speaker 8: There was the EMS report did not share that there
Speaker 8: was a large volume of blood at the scene. She
Speaker 8: was evaluated to part of her catskins also help us
Speaker 8: evaluate for intra abdominal blood loss.
Speaker 5: Okay, So when you raised the issue of the EMS,
Speaker 5: that would be the ambulance, right, yes, and their report,
Speaker 5: their run sheet they prepare right, that's what you're talking about.
Speaker 8: Right, there's verbal report from EMS when the patient is
Speaker 8: brought in and also the run sheet of the details.
Speaker 5: Okay, And when the people from the EMS came in,
Speaker 5: and did they speak to you about the verbal report.
Speaker 8: They speak, They addressed the entire room, so all the
Speaker 8: staff in the room is available to hear the details.
Speaker 3: And you're able to look at the run sheet.
Speaker 8: Correct, No, the run sheet is not always immediately available.
Speaker 5: So did the EMTs do your knowledge as a treating surgeon,
Speaker 5: physician and the trauma center tell you that there was
Speaker 5: blood loss?
Speaker 11: Not to my recollection, do you have did anyone tell
Speaker 11: you that at the scene where she was being treated,
Speaker 11: after coming out of the window and striking the ground,
Speaker 11: that there was blood in the snow and on the
Speaker 11: leaves and in the grass.
Speaker 8: I cannot recall if they commented on that?
Speaker 5: Is that important for you to know if there's blood
Speaker 5: loss on a patient, if there is a.
Speaker 8: Large volume of blood loss, Yes, the EMS will routinely
Speaker 8: comment on the patient being found.
Speaker 5: That's the EMS, THEAH the surgeon right, that is correct, sir?
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah.
Speaker 5: And one of the things would be blood pressure, right,
Speaker 5: what the person's blood pressure is?
Speaker 2: Correct?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 5: And she had if I understand your testimony correctly, low
Speaker 5: blood pressure.
Speaker 8: She initially when she came in are the note has
Speaker 8: a normal blood pressure and then after intubation her blood
Speaker 8: pressure dropped.
Speaker 5: Okay, do you know what caused the blood pressure to drop.
Speaker 8: There were several factors at play, because we discovered from
Speaker 8: her cat scan she had an injury to her spinal
Speaker 8: cord in the thoracic region that very commonly causes issues
Speaker 8: with maintaining your blood pressure.
Speaker 5: And do you know what her blood pressure was? I mean,
Speaker 5: if you don't, that's fine.
Speaker 3: You need the.
Speaker 8: Records blood pressure. At which point, at.
Speaker 5: The point I'm asking you about, when you noted that
Speaker 5: she had low bred blood pressure?
Speaker 8: No, I don't remember how hypotensive she was.
Speaker 5: Now, as far as being hypotensive, did you know that
Speaker 5: when she finally hit the Boston hospital that she had
Speaker 5: massive transfusion of blood?
Speaker 8: I thought you, I thought, I asked? An answered, well
Speaker 8: did you you asked me before? And I answered that no,
Speaker 8: I did not know that.
Speaker 5: Okay, So how about did you know that they introduced
Speaker 5: plural tubes in both sides of her chest and removed
Speaker 5: many many see seeds of blood from both the right
Speaker 5: and left plural cavity.
Speaker 2: Object to the one question, the witness, as already indicated,
Speaker 2: she hasn't reviewed those records.
Speaker 12: She's not aware of what happened at go through each
Speaker 12: and every injury is.
Speaker 8: If she gets to that, No I did. I do
Speaker 8: not know that about the patient when she was not at.
Speaker 5: All ther area and the left all the area of
Speaker 5: the upper extremities right and left that there were a
Speaker 5: deep cut noted in the skin.
Speaker 8: The notes about her wrist injuries said that it was
Speaker 8: through the skin with exposed fat, but there was no
Speaker 8: exposed muscle or tendon.
Speaker 5: Are cuts on both ouns. You wouldn't agree with that, No,
Speaker 5: I would not. And again you're not aware of anything
Speaker 5: that was diagnosed in Brigham a Woman's hospital.
Speaker 8: Right, That is correct.
Speaker 5: As far as the injury to her spine, what kind
Speaker 5: of injury was it?
Speaker 3: Do you remember it?
Speaker 8: It was at thoracic level T five, T.
Speaker 5: Six, And what type of injury was there to the spine?
Speaker 8: The report that the stability of the pattern of it
Speaker 8: indicated that there was instability of the spine, which is
Speaker 8: why we conferred with the neurosurgeon, right.
Speaker 3: And nothing much came out of that either.
Speaker 5: As far as conferring with the neurosurgeon, right, I'm not sure.
Speaker 8: What you mean by nothing much came.
Speaker 3: Over You didn't show up to come to the hospital, right,
Speaker 3: we did.
Speaker 8: I'm not sure, okay.
Speaker 3: The spine was transacted at T five T six. Right.
Speaker 8: The person the team, or rather the input you would
Speaker 8: need for further commentary on the spine would be a
Speaker 8: neurosurgery team. I am not a neurosurgeon. I am a
Speaker 8: general surgeon.
Speaker 5: So you're not aware of the transaction. You know what
Speaker 5: a transaction is, don't you?
Speaker 3: Yes? Okay?
Speaker 5: And on your cat scans or on your pictures that
Speaker 5: you were describing for the jury with no problem for
Speaker 5: the DA, did you notice that the spine was transacted
Speaker 5: at T five.
Speaker 8: And T six there was compression of the bones. I
Speaker 8: would have to specifically look at the report to see
Speaker 8: if it used the word transaction.
Speaker 3: Okay. How about a thyroid? Did you notice anything about
Speaker 3: a thyroid?
Speaker 8: It said that there was concern there was edema at
Speaker 8: the thyroid, concern for a contusion or laceration, and that's.
Speaker 3: The extent of your nose.
Speaker 5: You don't know whether or not the thyroid was destroyed
Speaker 5: or anything, do you correct?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 5: How about her ribs? You noticed that some of her
Speaker 5: ribs were broken.
Speaker 8: I would have to look at her cat scan report again.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, coming in here today, you're not aware whether
Speaker 5: or not she had broken ribs because you haven't been
Speaker 5: able to look at your records.
Speaker 3: Is that right?
Speaker 8: I did review my records. I would have to specifically
Speaker 8: state into the record what was the injuries. I would
Speaker 8: be happy to read from my note, which I know
Speaker 8: is part of the evidence.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So who is it that decide is that a patient
Speaker 5: is going to be med flighted into Boston from South
Speaker 5: Shoa Hospital.
Speaker 8: Some of it depends on the level of injury and
Speaker 8: the transport teams that are available at that moment. Sometimes
Speaker 8: MedFlight ambulance is faster, sometimes MedFlight is available. It all
Speaker 8: depends on the available resources at the time of the event.
Speaker 5: So what I asked you is who decides whether or
Speaker 5: not somebody is getting med flighted out of South.
Speaker 8: Shoa Hospital and the in from the subspecialist?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know. She was still talking.
Speaker 8: Go ahead, I finished, sir.
Speaker 5: All right, So you, as the trauma surgeon, would you
Speaker 5: agree that you had a little bit to do with
Speaker 5: whether or not she was in dire straits and had
Speaker 5: to be med flight at to Boston.
Speaker 8: I would be part of the decision to transfer her.
Speaker 5: Do you remember that decision being made and do you
Speaker 5: remember the meeting that you had to make that decision.
Speaker 8: I remember conferring with the emergency room team that neurosurgery
Speaker 8: had said she needed transfer and.
Speaker 3: It was by MedFlight, right.
Speaker 5: I don't know whether it's an ambulance or a helicopter,
Speaker 5: but you know it was MedFlight.
Speaker 8: It should have been MedFlight.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, call.
Speaker 12: Doctor.
Speaker 2: It was very clear to you that this patient has
Speaker 2: was suffering from multiple injuries.
Speaker 8: Yes, And is it.
Speaker 2: The policy of the Sutral hospital to make sure a
Speaker 2: patient is stable before they're transported.
Speaker 8: Yes, that's correct. Yes, correct. We would not put an
Speaker 8: unstable patient in any mode of transport to another facility.
Speaker 2: So when the review of all the CT scans, the
Speaker 2: DOBLINO scans, the head scans, the chest tax rays, all
Speaker 2: of the things that were reviewed as identified that she
Speaker 2: was stable enough.
Speaker 13: To be transfer because they think she's I'll love this question.
Speaker 2: Sorry what was your answer?
Speaker 8: Could you repeat the question please?
Speaker 2: So, after reviewing all of the imaging of the CT scans,
Speaker 2: the chess tax reas, everything, you and your team were
Speaker 2: comfortable that she was staying well enough to be transported
Speaker 2: to another hospital. Correct, Yes, And I think your testimony
Speaker 2: was that a large contributor to the decision of transport
Speaker 2: was the information that you got on the nurse surgery t.
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you nothing for anything on that springthon. Thank
Speaker 4: you doctor, Thank you.
Speaker 8: Sir.
Speaker 2: Hi come, weal come, would call Joseph Rabbit to the stand.
Speaker 4: Please, good morning, sir, that's it's a fun.
Speaker 2: One with the.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Good morning, sir, Good morning. Can you please tell the
Speaker 2: jury your first and.
Speaker 14: Last name, the head of Joseph Rabbit. Are a BBI
Speaker 14: T T.
Speaker 15: And where do you work the Massachusetts State Police? Currently
Speaker 15: assigned to the Cybercrime Unit.
Speaker 2: How long have you been with the State Police.
Speaker 14: Since March of twenty twelve, And.
Speaker 2: I'm going to draw your attention back to January of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. What was your assignment then?
Speaker 15: I was a trooper assigned to the State Police Detective
Speaker 15: Unit for Plymouth County.
Speaker 2: And do you recall how long you were a detective
Speaker 2: or trooper assigned to the detective unit in Plymouth County.
Speaker 15: Approximately from February of twenty seventeen to.
Speaker 14: September of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three. Do you recall being involved in
Speaker 2: an investigation in the town of Duxbury that day. I
Speaker 2: do yes, And do you recall where you went in
Speaker 2: Duxbury or or where the investigation was unfolding out of
Speaker 2: at first went.
Speaker 14: To Jordan Hospital or Beth Israel deacon.
Speaker 2: Plymouth, Okay, And so you didn't initially go to forty
Speaker 2: seven Summer Street correct.
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 2: Fair to say you weren't the case officer in this case,
Speaker 2: that is correct, and your experience working with the detective
Speaker 2: unit fair to say when an investigation, our death investigation
Speaker 2: is ongoing, kind of it's all hands on deck and
Speaker 2: everyone's kind of directed to do different things.
Speaker 14: Correct, That is correct.
Speaker 2: And so in this circumstance, you were asked to go
Speaker 2: to the Beth Israel Deaconess or the old Jordan Hospital
Speaker 2: here in Plymouth correct.
Speaker 14: Correct?
Speaker 2: Why did you get asked to go there?
Speaker 14: Because three children have been transported there.
Speaker 2: And so were you assigned to just go and check
Speaker 2: in on the status of the kids and what was
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 15: At that hospital, check it on the status and have
Speaker 15: them any potential victims documented by crime scene services.
Speaker 2: And so while you were at the hospital, you did
Speaker 2: have the occasion to speak with Patrick Clancy correct.
Speaker 3: I did yes.
Speaker 2: And after you left the hospital, did you go to
Speaker 2: forty seven Summer Street in Duxbury.
Speaker 10: I did yes.
Speaker 2: And are you aware that other members in your unit
Speaker 2: had obtain a search weren't for that home?
Speaker 3: I was yes.
Speaker 2: And so when you arrived at forty seven Summer Street,
Speaker 2: were you there to assist with the execution of the warrant?
Speaker 2: I was yes, part of the hornt execution. Is it
Speaker 2: fair to say that everyone's kind of asked to look
Speaker 2: at particular areas and search for potential evidence evidence related
Speaker 2: to the offence.
Speaker 3: That is correct?
Speaker 2: Fair to say this search warrant was executed shortly after
Speaker 2: the incident occurred.
Speaker 14: Fair to say?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And so did you and other investigators have limited information
Speaker 2: about what had happened?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: At the home you were you in that in the
Speaker 2: kitchen area assisting with the search?
Speaker 3: I was yes.
Speaker 2: And you show you what's probity been marked exhibit. You
Speaker 2: could look at the screen. Are you familiar with that
Speaker 2: photograph or what's depicted in that photograph?
Speaker 14: I am yes.
Speaker 2: And is that the kitchen area at forty seven Summer Street.
Speaker 14: It is, yes.
Speaker 2: There in January, well, the early morning hours, I would say,
Speaker 2: January twenty fifth, I was yes, And so fair to
Speaker 2: say you made observation till you're there right?
Speaker 14: Correct?
Speaker 2: And what was an observation that you noted to other
Speaker 2: investigators in that kitchen area on.
Speaker 14: The island ACVs bag.
Speaker 2: I'm just going to show you Exhibit number forty. That's
Speaker 2: a little bit of a closer view of the bag. Correct.
Speaker 3: That is correct?
Speaker 2: And how about this.
Speaker 12: Larger paper bag. Did you observe that as well?
Speaker 3: Did?
Speaker 2: Yes? And going to just approach you with what's been
Speaker 2: already marked as Exhibit thirty one. Was that also familiar
Speaker 2: to you?
Speaker 4: It is?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Is that receipt that is that bad?
Speaker 14: Correct?
Speaker 2: And fair to say all of these things the CBS bag,
Speaker 2: the receipt were noted, and certain things were collected, including
Speaker 2: the receipt Exhibit thirty one and the CVS bag correct call.
Speaker 2: What was inside the CBS bag.
Speaker 14: Was a bottle of pedal x.
Speaker 2: MH. You also observed other areas of the kitchen correct.
Speaker 3: Correct.
Speaker 2: And so there was a particular cabinet in the kitchen.
Speaker 2: Did you open a cabinet and discover something that stood
Speaker 2: out to you?
Speaker 14: I did, yes?
Speaker 2: And what was what was the cabinet? And what stood out.
Speaker 15: An upper kitchen cabinet with medication bottles.
Speaker 2: Okay, and fair to say that was that was pointed
Speaker 2: out and documented as well?
Speaker 14: It was yes, I may.
Speaker 2: Approach first photograph. Is that familiar to you?
Speaker 14: It is yes?
Speaker 2: And that's the cabinet that you opened and saw the
Speaker 2: items inside.
Speaker 14: Correct.
Speaker 2: And I'm just show you a second photograph And is
Speaker 2: that fair to say just a closer of those top shelves.
Speaker 14: It is yes?
Speaker 2: And what particularly stood out to you about medication in
Speaker 2: the cabinet.
Speaker 12: The spices or the generic medications or something else.
Speaker 14: The prescription medications it may be admitted.
Speaker 2: So just showing you now on the screen one and
Speaker 2: that's just the cabinet open and there's looks to be
Speaker 2: like air frier the below it correct?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 2: And now showing you one fifty three, which has those
Speaker 2: top two shelves, and it's the very top shelf has
Speaker 2: the prescription bottles correct?
Speaker 14: Correct?
Speaker 2: What did you do with the prescription bottles?
Speaker 15: I placed them on the islands and notified other members
Speaker 15: of that we're searching so they could be photographed by
Speaker 15: crime scene services.
Speaker 2: So I'm just going to show you another photograph.
Speaker 12: Is that fair as to replacing those bottles on.
Speaker 14: The island.
Speaker 4: May be admitted.
Speaker 2: And how many bottles were there?
Speaker 10: There were four?
Speaker 2: Or she would look bad. Take a look it's in
Speaker 2: the bag. Do those appear to be the four bottles
Speaker 2: that were in the cabinet?
Speaker 11: Yes, they may be admitted, thank you.
Speaker 2: Now, other than pulling these for the cabinet, latting them
Speaker 2: up on the counter and asking crimes and to photograph them,
Speaker 2: did you do anything further with these fills as far
Speaker 2: as inventoring them or examining them?
Speaker 14: I did not know.
Speaker 2: And when the kirch Warren is executed, for to say,
Speaker 2: there's usually an evidence officer who kind of documents everything
Speaker 2: and collects everything to take back either to the crime
Speaker 2: lab or to the State Police office.
Speaker 14: That's correct.
Speaker 2: Now. In addition to assisting with the execution of the
Speaker 2: warrant on this on January twenty the early morning hours
Speaker 2: of January twenty fifth, were you asked to do something
Speaker 2: else on this case on February sixth of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: I was yes. And on that day did somebody come
Speaker 2: into the State Police office at the District Attorney's office
Speaker 2: with some information or evidence? They did?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Who was that that came.
Speaker 14: In mister Patrick Clancy.
Speaker 2: And was he with an attorney somebody by the name
Speaker 2: of David Meyer. Yes, And what did they bring to
Speaker 2: the state police?
Speaker 14: Bottles of medication?
Speaker 2: How was it transported to the state Police or how
Speaker 2: did you receive.
Speaker 14: It in ACBS bag.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna show you.
Speaker 12: A photograph familiar to you.
Speaker 2: It is, yes, and this fairs to the bag that
Speaker 2: was pro.
Speaker 3: Yes, it may.
Speaker 2: Be admitted when mister Clancy an attorney Meyer brought that
Speaker 2: bag in. Did you do something or ask somebody to
Speaker 2: do something to memorialize what they were bringing to you?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 15: I asked crime Scene Services to digitally document them.
Speaker 2: And so the photograph I just showed you of the
Speaker 2: bag that was done by a trooper from crime Scene
Speaker 2: Services that came to the office.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 14: To recall who that was, I believe it was Trooper
Speaker 14: Roast Offers.
Speaker 2: And fair to say that with the crime scene trooper present,
Speaker 2: you also examined the other contents in the bag.
Speaker 8: Correct, That is correct?
Speaker 2: And there was a blank greeting card, some paperwork and
Speaker 2: a kind of insert for CBS. Is that back?
Speaker 14: Correct?
Speaker 2: Is that the other items that were in the bag
Speaker 2: other than the medications, that is correct.
Speaker 4: That may be admitted.
Speaker 2: And again as to the medications in that bag, when
Speaker 2: you saw that there were prescription bottles there, did you
Speaker 2: present them so that they could all be documented?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And did you then inventory or examine each of the bottles?
Speaker 14: I did yes.
Speaker 2: And is it fair to say that Patrick Clancy had
Speaker 2: indicated that the bag was in his truck and that
Speaker 2: he was bringing them to the state Police as a
Speaker 2: result of everything that occurred on January twenty fourth.
Speaker 15: I can't recall where he said he got them from,
Speaker 15: but that is why he was bringing them in.
Speaker 8: And I'm just going to approach.
Speaker 2: With the exhibit number two.
Speaker 12: You want it, take a look at that before we
Speaker 12: go through it.
Speaker 2: Is that appear to represent all the bottles that were
Speaker 2: provided to you on February sixth?
Speaker 3: It doesn't.
Speaker 2: And that's nine correct. Correct now, just as far as
Speaker 2: each bottle one moment. So when you are tasked to
Speaker 2: tracking your inventory, particular items like this.
Speaker 15: That come in, what do you do count out how
Speaker 15: many capsules or tablets are in there? The date that
Speaker 15: would not it was it was filled in the amount
Speaker 15: left in the bottle and the amounts that it said
Speaker 15: should have been there and when filled.
Speaker 2: Okay, And so referring first to this bottle that's labeled
Speaker 2: le Razapam one milligram, fair to say it says date
Speaker 2: filled two correct, correct, And it says that originally it
Speaker 2: was filled with thirty quantity thirty correct. And you counted
Speaker 2: what was left in this particular bottle, and there were
Speaker 2: only fourteen hills.
Speaker 14: Left in that bottle correct correct.
Speaker 2: And so the next one, the bottle labeled Curtulan brand
Speaker 2: name Zilloloft, filled on nine to fifteen, twenty two, quantity thirty.
Speaker 2: Did you count how many pills were left in this bottle?
Speaker 2: I did, and fair to say there's twenty three left
Speaker 2: corst no use sperne. There were, in fact two bottles
Speaker 2: labeled U sperone correct, that is correct, and one of
Speaker 2: them with a date of ten twenty six, twenty two,
Speaker 2: date filled quantity thirty. You counted how many pills are
Speaker 2: in this bottle?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 14: Correct?
Speaker 2: And there were twenty eight pills left in this bottle,
Speaker 2: that is correct. Hydroxene filled on ten twenty six, twenty
Speaker 2: two quantity thirty. You counted how many pills were in
Speaker 2: this that is and fair to say there were twenty
Speaker 2: seven left in that bottle?
Speaker 14: Correct.
Speaker 2: Klon is a pan filled on eleven twenty five, twenty two,
Speaker 2: with fourteen pills in the prescription. You counted how many
Speaker 2: were in this bottle?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 2: And there were actually a eleven and.
Speaker 14: A half christ that is correct?
Speaker 2: Blocks eighteen filled on eleven twenty one, twenty two, with
Speaker 2: fifty six in the prescription. You counted how many were
Speaker 2: left in this bottle? I did guess and there were
Speaker 2: twenty or excuse me, forty three correct?
Speaker 12: Correct?
Speaker 2: The second bottle of lerazapam that was point five milligrams,
Speaker 2: filled on eleven two, twenty two, with it says forty
Speaker 2: on the bottle right correct? You counted what was left
Speaker 2: in this bottle and it was eighteen and a half tablets,
Speaker 2: that is correct. And the second bottle of busperone filled
Speaker 2: on eleven nine, twenty two, quantity thirty There were actually
Speaker 2: thirty in this bottle? Is aft to say?
Speaker 3: Correct? Guess?
Speaker 2: And Trazodone filled on November sixteenth, twenty twenty two, with
Speaker 2: a prescription for thirty. You counted that there were twenty
Speaker 2: two point five pills left in this bottle? Is that correct?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 2: And then once you identified and counted each and ever
Speaker 2: you want to the pills in these bottles you handed
Speaker 2: this in for evidence, that is correct.
Speaker 5: Take it all, right, cross Council, and the pills that
Speaker 5: you just counted or you went through the bottles that
Speaker 5: you seized.
Speaker 3: First of all, there's no.
Speaker 5: Doubt that you guys were executing a search warrant, right,
Speaker 5: that is correct. And to have a search warrant, you
Speaker 5: have to have a reason to seize something from a
Speaker 5: citizen's person or their home right, that is correct, if
Speaker 5: their probable cause is what it's called, right, and then
Speaker 5: you have to itemize what you want to have the
Speaker 5: authority to seize, right, coruct. So I take it that
Speaker 5: when you people went in executing the search warrant that
Speaker 5: you had authority to seize the medical pill bottles that
Speaker 5: we've just gone through, corut and that was set forth
Speaker 5: right in the where it says you're therefore commanded. One
Speaker 5: of the things that you're entitled to seize would be
Speaker 5: prescription medication, right correct, And that would be on January
Speaker 5: twenty five or thirteen, that this affidavit was submitted to
Speaker 5: the clerk in this court, right correct, at three o'clock
Speaker 5: in the morning.
Speaker 3: Warrant was issued on January twenty five.
Speaker 14: Right, I didn't write it, but that sounds about right.
Speaker 14: That sounds right, all.
Speaker 5: Right, But do you recall what time you went into
Speaker 5: the home plancy home to execute the warrant?
Speaker 3: To serve the warrant.
Speaker 14: Is very more early morning?
Speaker 5: I was, yes, all right, so early morning hours. You're
Speaker 5: in there to look for in among other things like
Speaker 5: computers and things, sees any medication bottles that you saw, correct,
Speaker 5: So it's not that it's a random search that some
Speaker 5: police officer just happened to grab bottles.
Speaker 3: That is she saw.
Speaker 5: There was a specific intent to seize prescription medication.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 14: It was on the affidavit.
Speaker 5: Yes, And that's what you all did when you went
Speaker 5: in to try to execute the warrant and seize the items.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 15: I mean I for myself, what I found in the
Speaker 15: kitchen is what I sees.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 5: So were you the officer in trage of the warrant execution?
Speaker 3: I was not numb. Okay. Did you leave the kitchen
Speaker 3: and go elsewhere?
Speaker 16: I did?
Speaker 3: Yes? And where did you go?
Speaker 15: I believe I went to one of the children's bedrooms
Speaker 15: because it was somebody for me. There was a nuts
Speaker 15: camera in there a.
Speaker 3: Camera, Yes, okay, did you go anywhere else? If you
Speaker 3: recall I thought that I can recall. Did you go
Speaker 3: in the master bedroom.
Speaker 14: I can't recall if I did.
Speaker 5: Do you recall whether or not anybody in your presence
Speaker 5: or anybody went into a drawer a nightstand and looked
Speaker 5: in the drawer and saw an apple, watch, a bunch
Speaker 5: of pills.
Speaker 3: Things that nature. I can't.
Speaker 14: I don't know if anybody did or not.
Speaker 3: Description bottles that were seized.
Speaker 14: If you ever seen these, I have not known.
Speaker 5: So you went through the pill when the bibles through
Speaker 5: the district attorneys, and you did that when you did
Speaker 5: inventory apparently of these pill.
Speaker 3: Bibles that you ever tied about right.
Speaker 5: For the d she she asked you to looking and
Speaker 5: tell us how many pills were missing.
Speaker 14: Right, I did that for the ones that were turned in, right.
Speaker 3: And nobody ever looked at these bubbles right.
Speaker 5: I don't know if they have or not, if I
Speaker 5: understand correctly. Lorazepam as council asked.
Speaker 3: You, uh the dates that these scripts were written.
Speaker 5: The larazepam as you indicated was October twenty six. The
Speaker 5: busperone was the same date, October twenty six. The hydroxyzine
Speaker 5: was October twenty seventh flask Flamazepam was into November twenty
Speaker 5: five flocks the team was November Larrazipim was the beginning
Speaker 5: of November, November two busperine.
Speaker 3: These were all.
Speaker 5: Pills that were issued on prescriptions in about a three
Speaker 5: week period of time.
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
Speaker 14: Yeah, whatever the dates are, they would prescribe.
Speaker 5: Would you say that Patrick Clancy was very cooperative with
Speaker 5: your investigation anything you needed, he was pretty much there
Speaker 5: to try to help you out.
Speaker 15: I think I only dealt with him at the hospital,
Speaker 15: but he was very forthcoming.
Speaker 5: Okay, thank you, that's all I have to come.
Speaker 17: Thank you, sir.
Speaker 2: Counsel would call Maureen Fartnett as its next fitness.
Speaker 4: Good morning, morning.
Speaker 2: All right, counsel, thank you, good morning. Could you please
Speaker 2: club the jers.
Speaker 8: Your first and last name Enheartnett.
Speaker 2: And how are you employed? What do you do for work?
Speaker 1: Im a forensic scientist too in the criminalistics unit as
Speaker 1: well as a crime scene response unit at the Massachusetts
Speaker 1: State Police Crime Laboratory.
Speaker 2: And how long have you worked for the crime lab.
Speaker 1: Approximately a total of ten years.
Speaker 2: And what are your general responsibilities? As a forensic scientists too.
Speaker 1: In the criminalistics unit, I examine items of evidence for
Speaker 1: the possible presence of biological fluids such as blood, semen,
Speaker 1: and saliva, and those items would include clothing, weapons, or
Speaker 1: sexual assault hits among other items. I also collect and
Speaker 1: identify trace materials such as hairs and fibers. I perform
Speaker 1: damage analysis on clothing and collect gunshot residues.
Speaker 2: Do you have to undergo some specific training and education
Speaker 2: in order to perform those tasks at the crime lab. Yes.
Speaker 1: I have a bachelor's degree in biology as well as
Speaker 1: a master's degree in forensic science. In addition, I received
Speaker 1: approximately nine months of training in the crime laboratory as well.
Speaker 2: Do you have to take proficiency or competency tests on
Speaker 2: a regular basis?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So competity test is taken after each module in
Speaker 1: the training. They address certain things like blood identification, seaman identification,
Speaker 1: and after each of those modules I took a competency
Speaker 1: test to move on to the next portion of the training. Yearly,
Speaker 1: I also take multiple proficiency tests in biological fluid identification
Speaker 1: as well as trace identification and crime scene response.
Speaker 2: I'd like to talk a little bit first about the
Speaker 2: crime scene response. So you, as a forensic scientist are
Speaker 2: a civilian? Correct?
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: Do you often work in tandem with a trooper from
Speaker 2: the crime scene Services section? Yes?
Speaker 1: Generally I work alongside law enforcement as well as crime
Speaker 1: scene services when processing at crime scene.
Speaker 2: And when you go to a crime scene to process
Speaker 2: with the crime scene response unit, what's the goal or
Speaker 2: what are you looking to do there?
Speaker 1: My focus generally is on biological evidence such as blood, semen, saliva,
Speaker 1: as well as documentation through sketches and diagram and.
Speaker 2: The trooper from the crime Scene Services section that is
Speaker 2: usually there the law enforcement are they also documenting the
Speaker 2: scene as well and reviewing those same areas but through photographs?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can't speak for all of their responsibilities.
Speaker 3: Do you know?
Speaker 1: They take photographs, video, and they also take their own
Speaker 1: diagrams on occasion.
Speaker 2: Now, in addition to locating biological evidence, do you sometimes
Speaker 2: perform what's called screening tests at crime scenes?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: I do?
Speaker 2: And what are the common screening tests that you can
Speaker 2: do at a crime scene?
Speaker 1: I perform screening tests for blood as well as screening
Speaker 1: tests for sceneen depending on the case history and what
Speaker 1: the forensic relevant evidence is.
Speaker 2: And does that help inform you on what to collect
Speaker 2: from a crime scene? Sometimes?
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: I'm free to say if there's large a pool of
Speaker 2: blood on a floor, you can't collect that all and
Speaker 2: take it back to the lab.
Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: So how do you collect a sampling of it in
Speaker 2: order to then later process something like a red brown
Speaker 2: stain or some sort of biological spot or stain that
Speaker 2: you observe.
Speaker 1: Depending on the substrate on which the biological flood is located,
Speaker 1: I'll take a swabbing of the item, which is generally
Speaker 1: something like a Q tip to swab up the stain,
Speaker 1: or if it's on a soft surface, I could potentially
Speaker 1: take a cutting to preserve that biological evidence for future testing.
Speaker 2: And in some instances do you actually take the whole
Speaker 2: object if.
Speaker 1: It's possible In some instances, yes, that's correct. We would
Speaker 1: take the whole object, depending on what it is.
Speaker 2: I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three. Do you recall being asked to
Speaker 2: come out with the crime scene response unit on that
Speaker 2: day or this evening? Yes?
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: And where was the first place that you went in
Speaker 2: this response?
Speaker 1: I responded to Seal Shore Hospital the emergency department, and.
Speaker 2: Fair to say that Trooper Rose Staffers was also dispatched
Speaker 2: to that location as well.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: And did you make observations of a person who was
Speaker 2: identified as Lindsay Clancy at Slusher Hospital? Yes?
Speaker 10: I did.
Speaker 2: And did you observe her to have red brown stains
Speaker 2: on her body?
Speaker 1: I noted red brown stains on her hands. I did
Speaker 1: not have the opportunity to examine her entire body. She
Speaker 1: was mostly covered with blankets and other types of medical equipment.
Speaker 1: But I did not red brown stains on her hands.
Speaker 2: And clearly she was there for some sort of treatment, right,
Speaker 2: So why was your focus on her hands? As a
Speaker 2: crime scene response technician and a criminalist at that.
Speaker 1: Point in time, I was collecting samples from her hands
Speaker 1: for potential biological evidence relating to the crime. So when
Speaker 1: I noted the red brown scenes, I collected samples from
Speaker 1: her hands.
Speaker 2: And while at Selshaer Hospital, you are also aware that
Speaker 2: she had come into the hospital with clothing that.
Speaker 1: Was cut off correct, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: And that clothing was bagged up and collected.
Speaker 1: Yes, I returned that clothing to the crime laboratory.
Speaker 2: Who did you receive the clothing from.
Speaker 1: I believe it was Trooper Dan Lawler.
Speaker 2: At some point after being at Selfshore Hospital. Did you
Speaker 2: then respond to forty seven Summer Street in Duxbury.
Speaker 1: Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: Did you have somebody with you that day?
Speaker 1: I had a forensic scientist training at that.
Speaker 2: Time At forty seven Summer Street. Were you directed to
Speaker 2: a particular area to examine first?
Speaker 1: I first entered the home through the main floor and
Speaker 1: then was directed into the basement of the home.
Speaker 2: And when you came into the basement or I guess
Speaker 2: this could be true of when you respond to the
Speaker 2: most crime scenes. Is it the best the best practice
Speaker 2: to be one of the first in the home to
Speaker 2: examine at the home as it is or the scene
Speaker 2: as it is.
Speaker 1: Generally crime tcene services would enter first to photograph and
Speaker 1: video so that there's no personnel in those photos or videos.
Speaker 1: Then I would normally enter, whether crimes scene response you
Speaker 1: know it would enter next so that nothing is disturbed
Speaker 1: and that we can mark and test and collect evidence
Speaker 1: as is prior to the detective unit coming in. And
Speaker 1: then once our things are marked and documented, then the
Speaker 1: detective unit would also enter the residence.
Speaker 2: So when you came into the basement at forty seven
Speaker 2: Summer Street, did you observe some areas of the basement
Speaker 2: that were of significance to you as the crime scene
Speaker 2: reserve crime scene response?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: I did. And did you observe a red brand stain
Speaker 2: on the floor?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: I did. Once you observe it, what do you do
Speaker 2: with that stain?
Speaker 1: I marked the stain using a piece of ruler tape,
Speaker 1: and I designated that stain as stain A so that
Speaker 1: I can properly refer to it in my report.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna is that familiar to you? Yes? It is?
Speaker 12: Is that stain A that you just told us about?
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct, it may be admitted.
Speaker 2: I'm showing you now on the screen what's been Marcus
Speaker 2: Exhibit one. Obviously this appears to be on carpet craft.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 12: What did you do to collect sampling of that?
Speaker 2: Well? I guess what is the person you did.
Speaker 3: With that stain?
Speaker 1: So once I marked it, I then requested it be photographed,
Speaker 1: and that is a resulting photograph from that request. I
Speaker 1: then performed a screening test for the presence of blood
Speaker 1: on that stain. The screening test was positive. And at
Speaker 1: that point, once I documented that result in my notes,
Speaker 1: I then took two swabs of that stain for further testing.
Speaker 2: Now, when you're out a scene and you see something
Speaker 2: that is a red fern stain, you don't refer to
Speaker 2: the ask blood.
Speaker 1: Crash, that's correct, And.
Speaker 2: Even after the screening test, you don't refer to the
Speaker 2: ask blood do you? That's correct. Those preliminary tests are
Speaker 2: just screens, and so what do you do to then
Speaker 2: later confirm it?
Speaker 1: Once a swab is collected and then submitted to the lab.
Speaker 1: Later when I'm assigned to the case in the criminalistics unit.
Speaker 1: In the lab, I'll then perform a confirmatory tests on
Speaker 1: any swabs that they're interested in that need to be
Speaker 1: tested further and so as it, I apply di andized
Speaker 1: water to Q tips and apply it to the stain,
Speaker 1: and then the red brown stain is then transferred to
Speaker 1: the Q tips. I then package those, seal them, and
Speaker 1: enter them into our laboratory system and store them in
Speaker 1: a cold storage unit until they're ready to be further tested.
Speaker 2: Fair to say, with this particular investigation, the swabbing from
Speaker 2: that stain a on the basement floor was labeled as
Speaker 2: item three dash three.
Speaker 1: That's correct.
Speaker 2: Did you also go to another area of the house?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 3: I did?
Speaker 2: And what other areas did you go?
Speaker 1: I went up to the master bedroom on the second
Speaker 1: floor of the house.
Speaker 2: Did you observe additional red brown stains in that master bedroom? Yes?
Speaker 10: I did.
Speaker 2: And so again, when you observe stains, you then note them,
Speaker 2: mark them, document them. Correct, that's correct. And how many
Speaker 2: stains did you document in the master bedroom?
Speaker 14: Four?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: And again, just like the stain on the basement, were
Speaker 2: you labeled A? Do you kind of start over with
Speaker 2: the stains in the other bedroom or do you continue
Speaker 2: to label them in sequence?
Speaker 1: I continue to label them in sequence as they were
Speaker 1: B through E.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So first referring to stain B, do you recall where
Speaker 2: that was in the master bedroom.
Speaker 1: That was on the floor of the master bedroom, in
Speaker 1: between the bed and the mirror photo.
Speaker 2: And was that fair to say stay in be stains? Yes?
Speaker 18: True?
Speaker 1: Correct?
Speaker 2: Maybe admitted I started showing you one fifty nine on
Speaker 2: the screen Pratusly, that's not one one stain that was
Speaker 2: observed cracked, that's correcked. But what did you do to
Speaker 2: collective anything or screened this particular area of red brown stains.
Speaker 1: Sure, so in this particular case, based on the stains
Speaker 1: size and distribution, I consider them a related group of stains.
Speaker 1: So I tested one of the stains, performed the screening
Speaker 1: tests for the presence of blood. That was positive. So
Speaker 1: then I collected to swap from that stain just like
Speaker 1: the other one as before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, another photograph that area is that familiar as well?
Speaker 17: Yes, all right, that may be admitted.
Speaker 2: And again now showing what's been MARKEDUS one sixty, you've
Speaker 2: now testified that there was a grouping of stains, and
Speaker 2: so based on your observations with the grouping, you were
Speaker 2: able to identify that they appeared related. That's correct. How
Speaker 2: about stain C. Where was that located?
Speaker 1: Stain C I believe was located on the mirror, and.
Speaker 2: Just going back to one THI none for reference. Can
Speaker 2: you see the bottom legs of the mirror in this photograph? Yes,
Speaker 2: so they were, it was close to that cluster of staines.
Speaker 1: That's correct.
Speaker 12: You another photography depict the.
Speaker 2: Stained CE that you noted from here, Yes, it does.
Speaker 4: That may be admitted.
Speaker 2: With with what's now been Marcus one sixty one stained
Speaker 2: c again, is would this be kind of a cluster
Speaker 2: of related red ground stains.
Speaker 1: Yes, based on their location and their shape. I collected
Speaker 1: one scene from that area.
Speaker 2: Did you perform that scene screening test?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: I did?
Speaker 2: And what was the results? It was positive? And did
Speaker 2: you then swallow and collapse from one of those scenes? Well, yes,
Speaker 2: I did, no stain d Do you recall where that
Speaker 2: was in the bedroom?
Speaker 1: That was on the windowsill?
Speaker 2: Are you two more photos those represents where you identify
Speaker 2: as yes.
Speaker 4: I would, he may be admitted.
Speaker 2: Showing you one sixty two, First, Curtsey, that's the inside
Speaker 2: of the windows still cracked inside the bedroom.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: That night that you were there, did you make any
Speaker 2: observations of any stanes on the outside of the window sill?
Speaker 1: Yes, each of those were documented three photographs.
Speaker 2: Did you collect any swabbings from the scenes on the
Speaker 2: outside of the window so that night?
Speaker 1: No, I did not.
Speaker 2: And just kind of showing you for the jury. One
Speaker 2: sixty three. That's just a further close up of some
Speaker 2: of the staines. And is that fair to represent the
Speaker 2: area that you tested for the screen and then later swabbed. Yes,
Speaker 2: that's cracked and staying e.
Speaker 1: Do you recaller that was located that was located on
Speaker 1: the night stand next to.
Speaker 12: The bed photograph?
Speaker 2: Is that familiar to be staying e?
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 3: It may be admitted.
Speaker 2: And I'm just showing you another photograph of the outside
Speaker 2: of the house.
Speaker 12: Do you see staining that you observe that night on
Speaker 12: the outside?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 14: I do, and I night that may be admitted.
Speaker 2: So first exhibit one sixty four, you observe several staines in.
Speaker 1: That location, Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: And did you do the same thing as some of
Speaker 2: the other grouping of stains screen one area, swap from one.
Speaker 1: Area, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: And just now showing exhibit one sixty five, if you
Speaker 2: can see at the top stain on the outside of
Speaker 2: the windowsill, did you observe that on January twenty fourth, Yes,
Speaker 2: I did, but you did not swap or screen that.
Speaker 1: S that's correct?
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 1: Generally we don't collect every single scene from a scene.
Speaker 1: I organize the stains based on location, size, shaped distribution
Speaker 1: and collected from multiple areas and then the particular taste.
Speaker 1: I knew there was a single bleeder in that area,
Speaker 1: so I collected from numerous staines just not that particular one.
Speaker 2: And in addition to that stain on the windows. Still
Speaker 2: fair to say you did observe some other standing on
Speaker 2: the outside of the house as well, further down the
Speaker 2: window and on top of the first floor window frame.
Speaker 1: Yes I did.
Speaker 2: While you were out in the backyard, did you also
Speaker 2: observe staining or red brown stains in the yard? Yes?
Speaker 2: I did. And did you do that same procedure of
Speaker 2: marking it, screening it, collecting a sample from it?
Speaker 1: Yes, I did, just gonna show you a more.
Speaker 2: Is that familiar? Yes, it is.
Speaker 14: Correct, may be admitted.
Speaker 2: As far as the work that you did on the
Speaker 2: scene at forty seven Summer Street on January twenty fourth,
Speaker 2: fair to say it was limited to documenting these areas
Speaker 2: swabbing these areas for the most part.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I also collected a pair of pajamas and
Speaker 1: a pink pathrobe from the basement.
Speaker 2: Were all of the swabbings and those items collected brought
Speaker 2: back to the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab?
Speaker 1: Yes, they were.
Speaker 2: Are you aware that there were other items that were
Speaker 2: collected within that home on January twenty fourth that were
Speaker 2: also brought back to the State Police crime Lab for
Speaker 2: further analysis. Yes. Moving to January twenty fifth of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, did you go to the Brigham and Women's
Speaker 2: Hospital as part of the crime scene response again to
Speaker 2: see Lindsay Clancy, the defendant? Yes, I did, and you
Speaker 2: observed her at that location as well? Yes?
Speaker 10: I did.
Speaker 2: Do you take further samples from her?
Speaker 1: Yes? I collected samples swabbings from underneath her fingernails.
Speaker 2: And then, as far as you're duties on this case
Speaker 2: with crime scene response, did you return back to forty
Speaker 2: seven Summer Street on January fifteenth of twenty twenty three?
Speaker 1: I believe I returned on June fifteenth.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry June fifteenth, thank you?
Speaker 1: Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: And when you returned to the home on June fifteenth,
Speaker 2: did you go in the nighttime in the daytime? I
Speaker 2: went during the day and again with a crime scene
Speaker 2: response trooper or a crime scene services trooper.
Speaker 1: Yes, correct.
Speaker 2: What was the purpose of going back to forty seven
Speaker 2: Summer Street on June fifteenth?
Speaker 1: I was informed that additional testing was being requested on
Speaker 1: some of the red brown scenes that were noted on
Speaker 1: the X tier of the house up on the shingles.
Speaker 1: They had not previously collected from so I went back
Speaker 1: to see if I could potentially collect samples from those.
Speaker 2: Is that something in your training and experience is possible
Speaker 2: to collect biological substances from something like a shingle months
Speaker 2: after the incident occurred.
Speaker 1: It's possible, So if it's requested, we'll certainly go out
Speaker 1: an attempt to do that.
Speaker 2: And in this particular in incident, you went out and
Speaker 2: first made observations of the rear of the home correct, Yes,
Speaker 2: that's correct, And then made closer observations of underneath that
Speaker 2: second floor window.
Speaker 1: Yes, correct?
Speaker 2: Did you observe any obvious staining in that area?
Speaker 1: There appeared to be a reddish brown stain underneath the windowsill.
Speaker 2: So what did you do once you observed those stains?
Speaker 1: I marked that stain as stain A, and then I
Speaker 1: also marked additional stains for the down on the side
Speaker 1: of the house on the shingles.
Speaker 2: Where was stain A.
Speaker 1: That was right underneath the windowsill of the window that
Speaker 1: was farthest right what would have been the master bedroom
Speaker 1: on the xterior.
Speaker 2: This photograph of the room the home, is this photograph
Speaker 2: at least show the area where you observe stan A. Yes,
Speaker 2: And can you point out to you where that was sure.
Speaker 1: It was sort of on the left side near where
Speaker 1: this this orange it seems to be some sort of
Speaker 1: window insulation, So it was right underneath there. So I
Speaker 1: did perform a screen.
Speaker 12: Test on that, and what were the results of the
Speaker 12: screening test?
Speaker 1: That was negative?
Speaker 4: I would move to Admitphis, it may be admitted.
Speaker 2: And on June fifteenth, when you were there twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: showing you now Exhibit one sixty seven kind of closing
Speaker 2: in on underneath that window, there's that orange ball that
Speaker 2: you describe, appeared to be some sort of insulation, correct,
Speaker 2: and that was negative. That that staying observe was negative,
Speaker 2: so you didn't do anything.
Speaker 5: Further with that.
Speaker 1: That's correct.
Speaker 2: As far as the the other areas you have Stains B,
Speaker 2: C and D correct.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 2: Orient Is that a fair representation of San Dy? Yes,
Speaker 2: that's correct. And well in here stay C and D.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 12: And again stay B is kind of in between the
Speaker 12: top floor window and.
Speaker 2: The first floor window. Correct, And Stain's C and D
Speaker 2: are just above the first floor window.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 7: All right, those may be admitted, Council.
Speaker 4: It's just about eleven o'clock. Why don't we take the
Speaker 4: morning recess at this time? All right, so we can
Speaker 4: take the morning break at this time.
Speaker 3: Members of the jury, all.
Speaker 7: Okay, cool, that same thing we need to talk about
Speaker 7: for the break, all right, so we'll be in the
Speaker 7: morning recess at this time.
Speaker 3: Thank you. That is correct.
Speaker 2: And again we talked briefly earlier about the fact that
Speaker 2: there's always a screen and then that there you can't
Speaker 2: make a determination of the substance until a confirmatory test
Speaker 2: is done. Correct, that's correct, And so that is a
Speaker 2: process that you do at the lab. Yes. Correct. And
Speaker 2: as far as the knife that we just were referring to,
Speaker 2: the knife that was recovered, what's an exhibit one seventy,
Speaker 2: you were able to examine that further or swabs taken
Speaker 2: from that knife at the lab, that's correct, and confirm
Speaker 2: that what you say was stain a and the blade
Speaker 2: of that knife was confirmed to be blood.
Speaker 1: Yes, I performed the screening test as well as the
Speaker 1: confirmatory test for blood on stain a at the laboratory.
Speaker 2: Now, once you are in the laboratory and determine that
Speaker 2: blood is confirmed on these particular items or that there
Speaker 2: is biological substance present. Do you do anything to prepare
Speaker 2: those items for further testing in a different unit of
Speaker 2: the lab?
Speaker 1: Yes, I do. What do you do for the swabs
Speaker 1: that I collected and for the swabbings that I took
Speaker 1: off the knife? I then cut them off, give them
Speaker 1: a separate item number, and preserve those for potential DNA analysis.
Speaker 1: Half of the samples also preserved for any future analysis
Speaker 1: if necessary.
Speaker 2: And fair to say, it's a different unit at a
Speaker 2: different part of the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab that
Speaker 2: conducts DNA testing. Correct. That's correct, And so if some
Speaker 2: of the items that you examined or selected for further testing,
Speaker 2: those swabbings or further snippets would then be sent to
Speaker 2: the unit DNA unit. That's correct now, as it pertains
Speaker 2: to some of the other items that were collected from
Speaker 2: forty seven Summer Street. You also did some work on
Speaker 2: three exercise bands, correct?
Speaker 1: Yes, I did?
Speaker 2: And what did you do in relation to the three
Speaker 2: exercise bands that were collected.
Speaker 1: After documenting them in the lab? I took samples from
Speaker 1: each of the ends of the exercise bands, as well
Speaker 1: as a separate sample from the center of each of
Speaker 1: the exercise bands.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: And so the first band, which is identified as a
Speaker 2: yellow exercise band, had previously been identified as item two
Speaker 2: dash too. Correct.
Speaker 1: That's correct.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 2: And so did you take samples from both the ends
Speaker 2: in the middle of that item?
Speaker 1: Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna approve with a photograph. Is that familiar
Speaker 2: to you?
Speaker 1: Yes, it is.
Speaker 2: And in addition to actually taking the swaps, you also
Speaker 2: document the item that you're analyzing and reviewing. Correct. Yes.
Speaker 1: Prior to performing any kind of collection of testing on
Speaker 1: an item, I'll photograph it.
Speaker 2: And so this particular photograph is Is it fair to
Speaker 2: say this is a photograph from your work at the
Speaker 2: laboratory with a yellow exercise band. Yes, it is.
Speaker 4: Next exhibit that may be admitted, thank you.
Speaker 2: Okay. So I'm it started now showing you what's been
Speaker 2: markets exhibit one se and you indicated that you took
Speaker 2: swabbings from around the handle areas correct? Correct, and then
Speaker 2: the middle of the band.
Speaker 1: That's correct.
Speaker 19: Why do the thing?
Speaker 1: The purpose of the collection was to potentially determine who
Speaker 1: was holding or had contact with the ends of the
Speaker 1: band and who potentially had contact with the center of
Speaker 1: the band. Potentially there was being two different individuals. So
Speaker 1: I collected samples separate from the ends as in addition
Speaker 1: to the center.
Speaker 2: And was your approach on each one of the bands
Speaker 2: the same, Yes, it was okay. So the second band,
Speaker 2: which is the black band that was identified as item
Speaker 2: two Dash three, you took samples again from the ends
Speaker 2: in the middle. That's correct. And I'm just going to
Speaker 2: show you another photograph. And is that the black band
Speaker 2: you examined.
Speaker 1: Yes, it is.
Speaker 4: That may be admitted.
Speaker 2: And finally, the blue exercise band that was recovered from
Speaker 2: the home at forty seven Summer Street that was identified
Speaker 2: as I'm two dash four, did you examine it in
Speaker 2: the same fashion I'm swabbing the ends in the.
Speaker 1: Middle, Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: Yes, photograph when you were examining it.
Speaker 1: Yes, it is.
Speaker 7: All right.
Speaker 3: That may be admitted.
Speaker 2: And as far as the swabbings that you took of
Speaker 2: these each of these three exercise bands, what did you
Speaker 2: do with the swabbings after you swabbed the items.
Speaker 1: I allowed the swabs to air dry, I gave them
Speaker 1: each a item number, and then I preserved half of
Speaker 1: each of the swabs for additional testing in the DNA unit.
Speaker 2: And as far as your knowledge of some of the
Speaker 2: additional testing. You're aware that the exercise band swabbings were
Speaker 2: sent forward to the DNA unit for additional analysis.
Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, that's my understanding.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, thank cross, thank you. M definitely
Speaker 3: so I was having it.
Speaker 5: You initially went into the home at forty seventh Summes
Speaker 5: Street at what time that day?
Speaker 3: It was in the evening early morning hours.
Speaker 1: It was the early morning hours of January twenty fifth, okay, And.
Speaker 5: You had somebody that was learning underneath you, that was
Speaker 5: with you at that time, that's correct. And you went
Speaker 5: into the various areas of the house. You went down
Speaker 5: to the basement, right, Yes, you talked about the stain
Speaker 5: that you had taken swaves of that was on the
Speaker 5: carpet down in the.
Speaker 3: Basement, right, that's correct.
Speaker 5: And you went upstairs and then ultimately you ended up
Speaker 5: in the bedroom and you made observations of a number
Speaker 5: of blood drops or red brown as you put it,
Speaker 5: drops on the floor.
Speaker 1: Right, there were numerous red brown scenes on the floor. Yes,
Speaker 1: I did not believe I documented more bound scenes on
Speaker 1: the clothing and me been there. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I have that in my notes.
Speaker 5: How about the on top of the night stand, there
Speaker 5: was the knife the counsel had talked about. Yes, correct,
Speaker 5: And then you look at the window and there was
Speaker 5: a red brown stain on the right hand side of
Speaker 5: the window as you're looking outside from inside right.
Speaker 2: Yes, correct, And uh, you made.
Speaker 5: Observations of some of the markings on the shingles that
Speaker 5: were directly below the window, directly above where the reds
Speaker 5: were found.
Speaker 3: In the snow underneath.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 3: Your confirmatory tests.
Speaker 5: And first of all, what you do is you you
Speaker 5: have your screening tests. Back in the day, they used
Speaker 5: to you know, you use the orthotoldyin and you.
Speaker 3: Still use that.
Speaker 5: No, no, this time, now you use what crystalline?
Speaker 3: What do you use?
Speaker 5: It's called Mayer and the tessel Mayer basically, as I say,
Speaker 5: back in the day, it used to be that you
Speaker 5: would have vegetation that could give you a false positive.
Speaker 3: Right, correct. Certain chemicals could give you a false positive.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 5: Animal feces could give you a false positives.
Speaker 1: Right, depending on what's in them. Possibly.
Speaker 5: Yes, the test now that you have the confirmatory test
Speaker 5: is a lot more accurate, if you will, But still
Speaker 5: nevertheless I said, it's confirmatory screening. But Nevertheless, you still
Speaker 5: have to do a confirmatory test, right, that's correct. And
Speaker 5: back in the day it used to be tacking Yama tests.
Speaker 5: What do you do for confirmatory.
Speaker 1: Now we use a test card, a humanitates test card,
Speaker 1: which is something similar to a COVID test or a
Speaker 1: pregnancy test, where you just put the liquid in the
Speaker 1: beginning of the card. The liquid runs up and if
Speaker 1: there's two lines, that's positive, and it's only one line
Speaker 1: it's negative.
Speaker 3: It's not the techmin test, is it.
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: Okay, So the confirmatory tests that you use, that's a
Speaker 5: color test.
Speaker 1: Though right, it's a immunographic test. It's an essay, so
Speaker 1: it's not really a color test where you add the
Speaker 1: drops to the swab and it's going to change color.
Speaker 1: It's a reaction that's happening within the test card between
Speaker 1: antibodies and antigens that produce either two lines are one line.
Speaker 5: So let's take, for example, in the bedroom on the floor,
Speaker 5: the council had shown you a number of drops that
Speaker 5: were in the floor between the bed and that mirror.
Speaker 3: You did confirmatory testing on that.
Speaker 1: I did back at the lab. I screened it at
Speaker 1: the scene, and then I'm sorry, confirmed it back at.
Speaker 3: The lab, and that confirmed that it was human blood.
Speaker 1: It confirms that it's blood, and it indicates human blood.
Speaker 2: There is cost.
Speaker 1: So the test card that we use indicates that it
Speaker 1: confirms that it's blood. It indicates human blood because it
Speaker 1: may react with primate blood, so it's not specific to
Speaker 1: human blood.
Speaker 5: Confirming that the stains that are on the floor of
Speaker 5: the bedroom, all the blood, all those stains iron in
Speaker 5: fact human blood.
Speaker 1: Right, I'm confirming the single stain that I collected from
Speaker 1: is blood, all right.
Speaker 5: And when you say the single stain, that would be
Speaker 5: a used the Q tip and you swab it, and
Speaker 5: that would be from all of these stains that were
Speaker 5: all over the place on the floor, right.
Speaker 1: I did not swab each individual stain. I took a
Speaker 1: swab from each collection of scenes.
Speaker 5: Okay, And that was human blood, confirmatory indicating it was
Speaker 5: human right.
Speaker 1: It was confirmatory for blood and indicated human blood.
Speaker 3: All right. Now.
Speaker 5: One of the exhibits that the district attorney had pointed
Speaker 5: out was.
Speaker 3: Mirror. There were one six one Do you remember that
Speaker 3: the mirror?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 5: I do you see those drops that appear to be
Speaker 5: going down.
Speaker 3: From above in a downward direction.
Speaker 1: I do see the red brown scenes, and yes, I
Speaker 1: performed a screening test on one of them at the scene.
Speaker 5: Okay, and you're again you're comfortable that that in fact
Speaker 5: is human blood.
Speaker 1: I did not perform confirmatory tests on that specific stain
Speaker 1: back at the lab, So I just screened it at
Speaker 1: the scene, and that stain was not tested any further
Speaker 1: at that time. It was what I performed a screening
Speaker 1: test at the scene. I did not perform any confirmatory
Speaker 1: tests on that specific stain back at the lab.
Speaker 5: Well, there's no doubt that the stains that are depicted
Speaker 5: on the full length mirror that we can see in
Speaker 5: Exhibit one point sixty one, and the stains that were
Speaker 5: on the floor next to the bed, and the stains
Speaker 5: that were on the floor in front of the bed
Speaker 5: heading towards the door, all with the same consistency.
Speaker 1: Right, I did make it indetermination whether or not they
Speaker 1: were all the same consistency human blood. I did not
Speaker 1: make a determination that they were human blood. So besent
Speaker 1: the scientific results, I cannot say that they were human blood.
Speaker 5: The substance that's on the floor and the substance that's
Speaker 5: in the mirror and the substance that's on the doorknob
Speaker 5: and the drops that are heading out of the bedroom,
Speaker 5: those in fact more probable than not would be human blood.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I do make certain assumptions based on the color of
Speaker 1: a stain, the size, the shape of the stain that
Speaker 1: I could potentially be blood, and that would would indicate
Speaker 1: what I might want to test further, So I don't
Speaker 1: make an assumption off the fact that it's going to
Speaker 1: be human blood. That's why we perform scientific testing to
Speaker 1: screen for blood and then to confirm its blood.
Speaker 5: Okay, so this year you indicated with some type of insulation.
Speaker 1: That's what appeared to me. I mean, I'm not an expert,
Speaker 1: but that's it looked like some sort of foam insulation
Speaker 1: and it's.
Speaker 3: A little difficult to see with it. Do that there?
Speaker 3: I love the little orange looks like a little balloon.
Speaker 5: But let's say it's installation, or let's say it's something
Speaker 5: for bugs. You see the red substance on that. I
Speaker 5: do see the red substance, red brown stain on that
Speaker 5: window ledge or window sill.
Speaker 1: Yes, I do you that I did not test that specific.
Speaker 3: Stain, now, ye, so do we know if that was blood?
Speaker 1: No, not at this time. Right, it appears to be
Speaker 1: a red brown stain on the X tire of the windowsill,
Speaker 1: but I did not do any testing on it, and.
Speaker 3: Did I hate it correctly that.
Speaker 5: It was five months later that the state police investigators
Speaker 5: decided that you would get the shingles off the house.
Speaker 1: I don't know when that decision was me, but that
Speaker 1: was the day that I was requested to go.
Speaker 5: Out and then the district attorney showed you the shingles
Speaker 5: and envelopes.
Speaker 3: You opened them up and.
Speaker 5: Looked at them, and you did a confirmatory test on those.
Speaker 1: I did not. I performed a screening test on each
Speaker 1: of those scenes at the scene. I did not perform
Speaker 1: a confirmatory test on those scenes due to the fact
Speaker 1: that the red brown stain color was no longer visible,
Speaker 1: so potentially the because of the weather. Right, at some
Speaker 1: point the red brown stains appeared darker. They were no
Speaker 1: longer red browns, so I thought that the material could
Speaker 1: be less. I didn't want to use any additional material
Speaker 1: for confirmatory testing.
Speaker 5: School, as a chemist, you learn how to testify yes.
Speaker 5: One of the things they tell you is look at
Speaker 5: the jury when the lawyer asked a question, you look
Speaker 5: at the jury and you answer.
Speaker 1: The question that's correct.
Speaker 3: So can you just look at me.
Speaker 5: When I asked you just a little bit a question,
Speaker 5: would you agree that whether affects degrees.
Speaker 3: Blood if in.
Speaker 5: Fact it is on an object and allowed to stay outside?
Speaker 1: Absolutely?
Speaker 5: And then and then you'd agree with me that what
Speaker 5: you noted appeared to be dark?
Speaker 3: Yes, would almost be like back Gwano for that matter.
Speaker 3: We don't know what it is, right.
Speaker 1: No, I cannot make determination what it was like. I
Speaker 1: just performed a screening test, so I could not confirm
Speaker 1: it was blood. They just screamed positive for blood.
Speaker 5: Do you remember there was a red brown stain on
Speaker 5: the door of the bedroom from inside of the dead
Speaker 5: going out?
Speaker 3: Did you notice that?
Speaker 1: Potentially? I noticed it. I don't believe I didn't clutch
Speaker 1: from that.
Speaker 3: We don't know if that's play correct. And how about
Speaker 3: the drops, the red brown drops that were by the door,
Speaker 3: directly underneath the doorknob. Did you test those with your swaps?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 20: I did not totally right, caalthy redirected.
Speaker 2: You were attempting to explain why you did not perform
Speaker 2: confirmatory testing on the shingles. Can you explain that to
Speaker 2: the drinks.
Speaker 1: Because I can no longer see the red brown stain,
Speaker 1: it just appeared more of a darker scene, a lighter
Speaker 1: sain that I preesously saw at the scene. Given that
Speaker 1: that material, whatever it was, on the shingle may have
Speaker 1: been limited, using performing confirmatory tests is using up additional
Speaker 1: material to perform that test. So, given that was already
Speaker 1: potentially limited due to the nditions and the time that
Speaker 1: had passed, and the fact that I can no longer
Speaker 1: see the red brown stain, I simply performed the screening test,
Speaker 1: and once that was positive, I took a swab and
Speaker 1: just preserved it. I did not perform any more testing
Speaker 1: in a lab on that swab.
Speaker 2: And is that because you would need something to forward
Speaker 2: onto DNA if you wanted additional.
Speaker 1: Testing to be done, correct, I would have had to
Speaker 1: use up a portion of that sample to perform the
Speaker 1: confirmatory tests. And I didn't think that that was in
Speaker 1: the best interests of the case, given the fact that
Speaker 1: the material may already have been limited, And.
Speaker 2: You indicated that you had previously seen those red brown
Speaker 2: stains in those same areas that you swabbed, and the
Speaker 2: shingles were collected back in January.
Speaker 1: Correct, that's correct.
Speaker 16: Anything further all right, thank you, thank you, right, good morning, sir, Yes, council.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Could you please tell the journey your first
Speaker 2: and last name.
Speaker 18: Yes, my first name is Jonathan. My last name is O'Laughlin.
Speaker 2: And can you spell your last name for the record?
Speaker 3: O l ou G H l I N.
Speaker 2: And what do you do for work?
Speaker 18: I'm a trooper with the Massachusett of State Police.
Speaker 2: How long have you been a trooper?
Speaker 18: Hired in October of twenty eleven.
Speaker 2: And what is your current assignment with the state Police Right.
Speaker 18: Now, I work in the Division and Field Services and
Speaker 18: I'm assigned to the State Police Logan Airport Barracks.
Speaker 2: Going back to January of twenty twenty three, what was
Speaker 2: your assignment with the state Police?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 18: I worked in crime Scene Services section?
Speaker 2: And how long have you worked in crime scene Services?
Speaker 18: I started in February of twenty twenty And.
Speaker 2: When did you move to your new assignment?
Speaker 18: I left crime scene in October of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 8: So do you.
Speaker 2: Undergo specific training as a trooper to work in that
Speaker 2: crime scene services section?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: What kind of training do you get?
Speaker 18: So we did internal training in the lab, the crime lab.
Speaker 18: A lot of it was the beginning was reading about
Speaker 18: crime scene processing and fingerprinting, and then it would move
Speaker 18: on to doing mock cases, following other crime scene Services
Speaker 18: members around to observe, and then it went on to
Speaker 18: do a competency test where you would process a mock scene,
Speaker 18: develop fingerprints.
Speaker 3: And analyze them.
Speaker 18: It kind of pulled it all together, and then that
Speaker 18: would go on to a quality assurance program within the
Speaker 18: lab and they would determine if you were qualified to
Speaker 18: be on call.
Speaker 2: And other What things do you do as a crime
Speaker 2: scene Services trooper? What are your responsibilities?
Speaker 18: So we respond to all different types of crime scenes.
Speaker 18: At every single crime scene. The main thing you do
Speaker 18: at every scene, no matter what it is, is document
Speaker 18: the scene with photographs. Depending on the type of scene
Speaker 18: you're at, you may also document the scene with video.
Speaker 18: You may also sketch the scene by hand, and then
Speaker 18: also you may collect items of evidence to be processed
Speaker 18: later or you may even process items at the scene.
Speaker 18: What you're processing for is fingerprints. You try to develop
Speaker 18: fingerprints if there are any you can do fingerprint analysis
Speaker 18: and try to determine whose fingerprints are on the items
Speaker 18: of evidence.
Speaker 2: And that can be done at a crime scene, but
Speaker 2: it also can be done back at the crime laboratory
Speaker 2: correct correct, depending on the item and where it was located.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: As far as your response to particular scenes, do you
Speaker 2: often go out to crime scenes in tandem with or
Speaker 2: with a crime scene response unit investigator scientist. Yes, And
Speaker 2: you indicated that one of the first things and one
Speaker 2: of the main things you do is document scenes. Is
Speaker 2: it best practice to be kind of that first in
Speaker 2: after a scene is secured, to document the scene as
Speaker 2: it appeared. Yes, And how do you do that?
Speaker 18: So when you respond to a scene, usually the that
Speaker 18: you respond to, the local police department will secure the scene,
Speaker 18: which means they don't allow anyone in to disrupt the
Speaker 18: scene until you get there. Then you start with photographing
Speaker 18: the exterior of the residents, and then you walk in
Speaker 18: and just document the entire scene, room by room as
Speaker 18: it is.
Speaker 2: And after that's done, do you kind of go back
Speaker 2: through and highlight or identify in any way on particular
Speaker 2: things that may be relevant to the investigation. Yes, the
Speaker 2: crime scene you're responding to, Yes, And how do you
Speaker 2: identify in the documentation items that might have some relevance
Speaker 2: or evidence your value.
Speaker 18: So some items might kind of be obvious that they're
Speaker 18: involved in the crime, that are still there, those you
Speaker 18: want to document further. And sometimes a detective.
Speaker 3: Detective unit or.
Speaker 18: A member will ask you to document another piece of
Speaker 18: evidence that they would like collected or they would like
Speaker 18: further looked at.
Speaker 2: And you indicated that with crime scene services you respond
Speaker 2: to all different kinds of scenes and all different types
Speaker 2: of law enforcement. So sometimes do you work with the
Speaker 2: local city or town departments. Yes, And in investigations where
Speaker 2: a death has occurred, who are the primary law enforcement
Speaker 2: that you're working with?
Speaker 18: So they will be local and there will also be
Speaker 18: the county stay police detective unit will also respond for
Speaker 18: any death investigation.
Speaker 2: Now, when you are processing a scene or documenting a scene,
Speaker 2: do you do anything to identify and highlight the items
Speaker 2: that have been either pointed out to you or that
Speaker 2: you've seen that could have value in the case.
Speaker 3: Yes, what do you do? So?
Speaker 18: But those we put what's called placards, and placards are
Speaker 18: pieces of plastic.
Speaker 3: That have numbers on them.
Speaker 18: That way, when you're going through the photos, you can
Speaker 18: refer to them as placard. One placard two and so
Speaker 18: on and so forth.
Speaker 2: And as far as further processing the scene between yourself
Speaker 2: and the crime scene response are some items sometimes collected
Speaker 2: by either yourself or the crime scene response unit?
Speaker 3: Yes, And when you.
Speaker 2: Collect an item, do you identify it in some other way? Yes.
Speaker 18: When you collect an item and there it's put into
Speaker 18: evidence in the lab.
Speaker 3: It's given a lab number.
Speaker 18: The lab number doesn't doesn't match up, doesn't have to
Speaker 18: match up with the platcard number. The PLAT cards simply
Speaker 18: for your photos. And then the lab number is the
Speaker 18: number that will be associated with that piece of evidence
Speaker 18: all through the crime lab procedure process, all the way
Speaker 18: through the trial.
Speaker 2: And when you go to crime scenes for inside houses,
Speaker 2: for instance, is it oftentimes the case that your processing
Speaker 2: the crime scene at the same time investigators are getting
Speaker 2: into a location with a search for it.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And so when that's the circumstance, do you photograph and
Speaker 2: document everything that you can?
Speaker 18: I'm sorry, can you sure I can put that?
Speaker 2: That's a bad question. When you are with kind of
Speaker 2: the local law enforcement, do you document things oftentimes that
Speaker 2: maybe you don't collect and take back to the lab
Speaker 2: or the forensic scientist doesn't but might have value or
Speaker 2: relevance to the police. Yes, and in those instances, they're
Speaker 2: not assigned to those same item numbers.
Speaker 8: Correct.
Speaker 3: Correct.
Speaker 2: I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three. Do you recall going or being
Speaker 2: called out to forty seven Summer Street in Duxbury.
Speaker 3: Yes, I do.
Speaker 2: And what was your role on that scene?
Speaker 18: So the role was was Plymouth State Police Detective unit
Speaker 18: have been called out to what was reported as a
Speaker 18: homicide at that address, So we were called out to
Speaker 18: document the scene and collect any items of evidence that
Speaker 18: needed to be processed.
Speaker 2: Now in relation to this particular investigation. When you arrived there,
Speaker 2: had the State Police and the Duxbury Police already secured
Speaker 2: the home. Yes, And again in this situation where you
Speaker 2: you arriving and going into the home at the same
Speaker 2: time that a search warrant was being executed.
Speaker 18: Yes, we waited for the search warrant to be signed,
Speaker 18: brought to the scene, and then photographed the search warrant,
Speaker 18: and then we started documenting the scene.
Speaker 2: And fair to say, in this case, there were a
Speaker 2: number of items that were identified by your unit by
Speaker 2: the placards.
Speaker 9: Yes, and.
Speaker 2: If I if I tell you that you documented eight
Speaker 2: specific placards at the crime scene on that particular day,
Speaker 2: does that sound about right?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: It does, okay, including a brown belt, some exercise bands,
Speaker 2: three in particular, a pair of red pajamas, a pink
Speaker 2: sweatshirt or a robe, a pink piece of clothing, a
Speaker 2: knife with black handle, and a phone. Yes, sound right,
Speaker 2: it does. And I will go through each and every
Speaker 2: item because we've seen several of those items before, but
Speaker 2: just in particular as it relates to placards seven and eight.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna ask you to take a look at
Speaker 2: some photos.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, So I'm.
Speaker 2: Showing you a photograph of placard seven. Is that familiar
Speaker 2: to you?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And what is the placard seven? What was that to
Speaker 2: highlight or depict?
Speaker 18: That was a knife covering a red brown stain found
Speaker 18: in the upstairs master bedroom, that.
Speaker 4: May be admitted.
Speaker 2: And I'm showing you another photograph with depicting placard number eight.
Speaker 2: Is that familiar to you?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And that was a cell phone that was also noted
Speaker 2: in your documentation of the scene.
Speaker 4: Correct, yes, ap admitted.
Speaker 2: Now, as far as collecting of particular items on this scene.
Speaker 2: You're aware that there were several of the placarded items
Speaker 2: that were collected by crime scene services for to take
Speaker 2: back to the lab. Yes, and fair to say, the
Speaker 2: yellow exercise band at placard number two, the black exercise
Speaker 2: band at placard number three, the blue exercise band at
Speaker 2: placard number four, the red pajamas, and the silver knife
Speaker 2: of the black handle were all collected.
Speaker 18: Yes, I believe the red pajamas were collected by the
Speaker 18: crime scene response.
Speaker 2: It okay, do you recall collecting the knife?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Why would you collect the knife as part of the
Speaker 2: crime scene response or excuse me.
Speaker 4: There's no objection to any of this, and so I'll
Speaker 4: allow this line of ink. We just to kind of
Speaker 4: put things in respect.
Speaker 2: You good, thank you. Why would you collect the knife
Speaker 2: as part of the crime scene services as opposed to
Speaker 2: the crime scene response?
Speaker 18: So we would collect a knife because that would be
Speaker 18: an item that would be processed for fingerprints at the lab.
Speaker 2: And based on your training and experience, a fingerprint analysis
Speaker 2: is that something that should happen before any other biological testing?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And why is that?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 18: Fingerprints are extremely fragile, anything that the forensic scientists would
Speaker 18: do would destroy any fingerprints that may or may not
Speaker 18: be that may be on an item of evidence.
Speaker 2: And so I'm just going to approach and show you
Speaker 2: an item. Is that item familiar to you?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Is that the knife that you collected that was located
Speaker 2: at black for number seven?
Speaker 3: Yes? Thank you.
Speaker 2: That may be admitted now that knife was brought back
Speaker 2: to the crime lab to your unit.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And in addition to the knife, did you also bring
Speaker 2: back the exercise bands yes. As far as your analysis
Speaker 2: of those items for fingerprints, what did you do to
Speaker 2: try to identify if there were anything on them?
Speaker 18: So when we're examining for fingerprints, we're looking for latent prints,
Speaker 18: which are fingerprints that aren't necessarily visible to the naked eye.
Speaker 18: Therefore chemicals must be applied to bring it out to
Speaker 18: make them visible. Those are non porous items, So for
Speaker 18: those we would use it's commonly referred to what was
Speaker 18: cyano accolade esther it's more commonly known as super glue,
Speaker 18: and we put them in a chamber with the super glue.
Speaker 18: The super glue is is heated. There's water, so there's
Speaker 18: humidity in this chamber. The entire chamber fills with supergroup fume,
Speaker 18: super glue fume, So it's adheres to anything fingerprint related
Speaker 18: on those items. Once the chamber is cleared of the fumes,
Speaker 18: you open it and then you can now see if
Speaker 18: there are any fingerprints on there.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 2: And is it fair to say that when you touch
Speaker 2: an item and like leave some remnants of a fingerprint,
Speaker 2: it's your the oils and everything that are on your
Speaker 2: finger that leave the impression on the item.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And so are there things that can affect whether you
Speaker 2: actually get enough information to analyze a fingerprint?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: What kinds of things can influence that?
Speaker 18: So it could be the texture of the actual object itself.
Speaker 18: It could also be environmental factors. There's low humidity, could
Speaker 18: be if there's the person touching the item might not
Speaker 18: have residue on their on their hands. There's also movement
Speaker 18: can affect fingerprints. The strength the grip on an item
Speaker 18: also affects as well as they could be wiped off
Speaker 18: because fingerprints, like you said, are very very very fragile.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 2: And so is it oftentimes the case that you analyze
Speaker 2: for a print and don't find anything of value. Yes,
Speaker 2: And so as it pertains to these items that you viewed,
Speaker 2: the knife the exercise bands. Can you tell us what
Speaker 2: your findings were when it came to the knife.
Speaker 18: Yes, the knife did have limited detail, meaning that there
Speaker 18: there were areas of friction ridge impressions, which is referred
Speaker 18: that's what we've referred to fingerprints is the friction ridge
Speaker 18: skin is the skin that covers your palms and your fingers,
Speaker 18: and your toes and your feet. The friction ridge skin
Speaker 18: is what leaves the impression on an object. So there
Speaker 18: was there were there wasn't an area of friction ridge
Speaker 18: impression on that knife, so it was photographed further and
Speaker 18: giving an item number upon further analysis, there was not
Speaker 18: enough detail to do a comparison.
Speaker 2: So when you photograph it for further analysis, why do
Speaker 2: you do that?
Speaker 18: Do that in order to take a deeper look to
Speaker 18: see if if there was there was enough characteristics or
Speaker 18: minutia to do a comparison to a known print.
Speaker 2: With a photograph, you can enhance it and look at
Speaker 2: it closer. Correct correct, But after doing that, were you
Speaker 2: able to make any sort of opinions about that area
Speaker 2: and the knife?
Speaker 18: Yes, there was not enough characteristics or maneution to do
Speaker 18: any comparison, so it was deemed no value.
Speaker 2: And as far as the exercise bands, fair to say,
Speaker 2: you also did the same and examine those to try
Speaker 2: to identify if they had any friction, rich detail, or
Speaker 2: anything of value that you could conduct a comparison on. Right, Yes,
Speaker 2: and was there any on either either the yellow band,
Speaker 2: the black band, or the blue band.
Speaker 3: No, there was not enough to do no value.
Speaker 2: And after you're done looking for these delicate fingerprints, what
Speaker 2: do you do with the items next?
Speaker 18: So the ends are repackaged and they moved on to
Speaker 18: the forensic scientists to do their testing, and.
Speaker 2: Usually that's the criminalistics unit first. Correct.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Now, in this particular case, as we discussed, you were
Speaker 2: also documenting as state police were executing a search warrant. Correct, Yes,
Speaker 2: and you did that again with additional photographs. Yes, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to show you a couple photographs, if that's okay,
Speaker 2: the three photographs. That's the first one. It's a little
Speaker 2: hard to see. What do you see an item depicted
Speaker 2: in there?
Speaker 3: Square? Item? I'm sorry, were exactly do you well?
Speaker 2: Do you do you see that this photograph a little
Speaker 2: washed out, but it depicts an area of the.
Speaker 3: Home, yes, or an item in the home. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 3: the dress.
Speaker 2: And then I have another photograph with a drawer open.
Speaker 2: Is that familiar to you? And then a third one
Speaker 2: with an action item pulled out? Yes, and fair to
Speaker 2: say you when you're photographing things as they are found,
Speaker 2: you photograph where it comes from as it's being examined,
Speaker 2: and then the item and the other stuff. Yes, the
Speaker 2: location of a ground journal.
Speaker 4: Yes, those may be admitted.
Speaker 5: So basically, how long is your course that you take
Speaker 5: to become a crime scene technician to the state police, So.
Speaker 18: Before you're certified for fingerprints, it's usually about a year,
Speaker 18: So you're working in that crime scene services unit for
Speaker 18: a year while you're going to the school for it. Yes,
Speaker 18: it's it's more of an internal training. You don't go
Speaker 18: to a specific school. But yes, so you told us.
Speaker 5: About your training, You told us about your experience, You
Speaker 5: told us about fingerprints, You told us how you seize
Speaker 5: items in the course of the search warrant, and then
Speaker 5: you told us about looking at the photo graphs that
Speaker 5: would and the items that would depict friction ridge if any.
Speaker 5: But the bottom line is that you didn't get any fingerprints, correct,
Speaker 5: and that you could have just said that right, just
Speaker 5: come on the witness stand say we didn't get any fingerprints.
Speaker 5: It's a state So then you're talking about it as
Speaker 5: the state police investigating this case. You guys walk around
Speaker 5: and you have cameras and you take pictures, right, yes,
Speaker 5: so you told us about Well how about when you're
Speaker 5: executing a search warrant? Are you supposed to be thorough
Speaker 5: in the course of your search for items?
Speaker 18: I don't search for items, sorry, everything I do with yes,
Speaker 18: I document.
Speaker 3: I found.
Speaker 5: In addition to the drugs that were found in the kitchen,
Speaker 5: and I found these internet's.
Speaker 3: And you were a photographed there right, yes, no, I
Speaker 3: have no critical redirect.
Speaker 4: Nice, definitely coming.
Speaker 2: We would call hillaryis.
Speaker 17: My good afternoon?
Speaker 2: All right, council, thank you, Sorry, it's okay, good afternoon.
Speaker 2: Can you tell the Jersey your first and last name,
Speaker 2: Hillary Griffiths and can you spell your last name for
Speaker 2: the record.
Speaker 19: Gri f fi thhs. And where do you work? I
Speaker 19: work at the Massachusetts State Police Crime Laboratory.
Speaker 2: What do you do there?
Speaker 19: I am a forensic scientist in the toxicology unit. How
Speaker 19: long have you been with the State Police for twenty
Speaker 19: one years? And have you spent your entire career in
Speaker 19: the toxicology unit or have you worked in other units?
Speaker 19: Initially I worked in the DNA unit and then in
Speaker 19: the office of Alcohol Testing, but I have been in
Speaker 19: the toxicology unit since twenty eleven.
Speaker 2: What does the toxicology unit do At the crime lab?
Speaker 19: We test biological specimens, primarily blood and urine and some
Speaker 19: other sample types for the presence of drugs, alcohol, and
Speaker 19: some poisons to aid in criminal legal investigations. Where does
Speaker 19: the samples the blood and urine come from before it
Speaker 19: gets to your lab. They could come from like often
Speaker 19: hospital collections of blood and urine. Occasionally, urine samples can
Speaker 19: be collected from a defendant at a policy station. Also,
Speaker 19: we receive samples from the medical examiner's office.
Speaker 2: So normally it comes through some law enforcement channel, right, yes,
Speaker 2: and sometimes through the medical examiner's office. Yes, you don't
Speaker 2: have any direct involvement in the collection of the blood
Speaker 2: or urine from an individual, correct, Correct, You're just looking
Speaker 2: at the blood itself, yes, or the urine yes, Okay,
Speaker 2: So what kinds of testing is done in the toxicology unit?
Speaker 2: You mentioned alcohol and drugs and poison, So how does
Speaker 2: the toxicology unit handle those things?
Speaker 19: We initially screen samples following a particular testing strategy depending
Speaker 19: on case type, and we will screen samples and then
Speaker 19: confirm whatever is found positive in the screening using a
Speaker 19: second methodology or repeating the initial methodology using a variety
Speaker 19: of different techniques. And when a sample comes to your unit,
Speaker 19: can you explain to us how the personnel in that
Speaker 19: unit divides up the work. Yes, Our samples are tested
Speaker 19: in a batch system, So each analyst is assigned a
Speaker 19: particular task for the month, and then any case that
Speaker 19: requires that test during that month is performed by that individual.
Speaker 19: So often cases could need anywhere from three to ten
Speaker 19: different tests to be done, and so different individuals will
Speaker 19: conduct each different test. And for any given case or
Speaker 19: any different lab number, is there an analyst that's kind
Speaker 19: of assigned at the end of it all to digest
Speaker 19: or analyze all of the data.
Speaker 2: Yes, When all.
Speaker 19: Of the testing is completed for a case, an analyst
Speaker 19: takes responsibility for that case and they will review all
Speaker 19: of the raw data that's generated by the different analysts involved.
Speaker 19: They'll review the case in specific information like the police report,
Speaker 19: the documentation on the evidence itself.
Speaker 2: They'll assess the case as.
Speaker 19: A whole and they'll generate a report containing their findings.
Speaker 19: And do you receive some sort of specialized training to
Speaker 19: be part of the toxicology unit?
Speaker 2: Yes? What training do you receive?
Speaker 19: When I began working in the toxicology unit, I participated
Speaker 19: in approximately a year long training program where I connected
Speaker 19: literature reviews, attended lectures to learn the theory behind the
Speaker 19: testing and the testing process itself, as well as the
Speaker 19: interpretation of the results. And then I practiced each of
Speaker 19: the techniques on mock cases and then took tests to
Speaker 19: ensure that I understood the logic and the background behind
Speaker 19: the testing. I understood the interpretation, and I was able
Speaker 19: to test these mock cases and get the correct results
Speaker 19: prior to performing those methods on case for examples, And.
Speaker 2: You described to us that the work is done in
Speaker 2: a batch flow process, so that you could be doing
Speaker 2: different things at various points. Are you trained to do
Speaker 2: each part of the process, Yes, and so ultimately you
Speaker 2: could interpret, but you don't always interpret with every single
Speaker 2: case that you work on. Correct Now, in the toxicology unit,
Speaker 2: you mentioned that there are screening tests and there are
Speaker 2: confirmatory tests, and those are usually assigned differently in this
Speaker 2: batch process. Correct, it can be yes. What are generally
Speaker 2: the green tests that are done when a case comes
Speaker 2: into the Toxic College unit. For the most part, all
Speaker 2: cases receive an Eliza screen, which is a very quick
Speaker 2: color screening test that looks for eight different types of drugs.
Speaker 2: It's very sensitive but not very specific, so it basically
Speaker 2: says this type of drug might be present.
Speaker 19: Now go do follow up testing to find out specifically
Speaker 19: what's present. They also all receive a general Unknown screen,
Speaker 19: which looks for several hundred different prescription drugs, over the
Speaker 19: counter drugs, and.
Speaker 2: Drugs of abuse.
Speaker 19: Then, depending on the case type, they can be screened
Speaker 19: for alcohol, and they can be screened specific screening tests
Speaker 19: for GHB can be performed.
Speaker 2: If the case type warrants.
Speaker 3: That D alcohol I mean really good, you can.
Speaker 19: Continue and then depending on what is present from those
Speaker 19: screening tests, that will guide the follow up testing.
Speaker 2: And with the follow up testing, that's the process of
Speaker 2: going through that secondary confirmatory testing right, correct. And in
Speaker 2: some instances with the screens, are you looking to get
Speaker 2: any sort of specific information about a particular drug or
Speaker 2: substance that might be present or is it just a
Speaker 2: determination of whether something is detected or not detected.
Speaker 19: It depends on the test itself and the sample. The
Speaker 19: general unknown screen only tells us if a substance is
Speaker 19: detected or not detected. The general unknown screen can be
Speaker 19: run as both a screening tests and confirmatory test. With
Speaker 19: other tests, the screening test would just be qualitative and
Speaker 19: we would determine if a substance is present or not,
Speaker 19: such as when we test urine. We can only determine
Speaker 19: or report out if a substance is present or not
Speaker 19: with some tests. When testing blood, we can determine a
Speaker 19: concentration and know how much of the drug is present
Speaker 19: and if there limitations at your lab as far as
Speaker 19: determining concentration of certain types of drugs in blood. Yes,
Speaker 19: and so what happens when your lab might have screened
Speaker 19: or detected a substance but doesn't have the ability to.
Speaker 2: Give a concentration. What do you do with that?
Speaker 19: We can if the substance is confirmed, so if we've
Speaker 19: tested it twice and verify that it's definitely present, we
Speaker 19: can report it out as just detected as opposed to
Speaker 19: giving the concentration.
Speaker 2: Do you often work with other independent outside laboratories to
Speaker 2: do additional testing that you can't as far as determining
Speaker 2: concentrations or levels. Yes, if it's important for the case
Speaker 2: to know a concentration of a substance that we can't
Speaker 2: quantify ourselves, we can send it to a different laboratory
Speaker 2: that can perform that testing. I'm going to draw your
Speaker 2: attention to a laboratory number twenty three DASH zero one
Speaker 2: seven two three. Do you recall doing work on that
Speaker 2: particular lab number?
Speaker 10: Yes?
Speaker 2: Do you recall what your role was in that batch
Speaker 2: process for the lab number?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 19: I performed the conformation method for benzodiazepines on the urine
Speaker 19: sample and the quantitation method for benzodiazepines on the blood sample.
Speaker 2: And in order to do well, can you tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about the benzodiazepine What did you do
Speaker 2: as far as it that particular test.
Speaker 19: When it's testing both the blood and the urine, for
Speaker 19: the most part, the same method is used. We use
Speaker 19: solid phase extraction method to separate the drugs from the
Speaker 19: rest of.
Speaker 2: The biological material.
Speaker 19: Biological materials can have things like lipids and steroids and
Speaker 19: blood cells and bacteria and other things that can interfere
Speaker 19: with their testing, So we use this solid phase extraction
Speaker 19: method to separate the drugs and concentrate them to be
Speaker 19: able to run on our instrument, and then we run
Speaker 19: them on a LCMSMS, which is a liquid chromatograph mass
Speaker 19: spectrometer that can separate the different drugs and identify specifically
Speaker 19: which one.
Speaker 2: Is present and how much is there.
Speaker 19: When we're testing blood samples, we can report out that
Speaker 19: value for how much is present when testing urine samples
Speaker 19: by this method.
Speaker 2: Although the method itself can determine how much is present.
Speaker 19: We don't report that out because concentrations in urine aren't
Speaker 19: really meaningful. They don't reflect any concentration that had previously
Speaker 19: been in the blood. They mostly just reflect how much
Speaker 19: of the drug was present in the urine, so we
Speaker 19: don't report that. There is an additional step that's needed
Speaker 19: when testing urine at the beginning of the method. But otherwise,
Speaker 19: both the blood and the urine are tested in the
Speaker 19: same manner using the solid phase extraction and the LCMSMS.
Speaker 2: And in this case with this laboratory number, the Toxicollege
Speaker 2: unit was in fact provided with six files of blood
Speaker 2: in one vial of urine. Correct there were four vials
Speaker 2: of blood and then two vials of serum plasma which
Speaker 2: had started out as blood but were serum by the
Speaker 2: time we received them. And then one two B of urine. Okay.
Speaker 2: And as far as the urine goes in your role
Speaker 2: in this batch process, you conducted that benzardiazpine screen correct yes,
Speaker 2: and it was positive.
Speaker 8: Yes.
Speaker 2: And then the further testing were you able to detect
Speaker 2: any particular benzardiazepines in the urine. I didn't conduct the
Speaker 2: initial benzodiazepine screen through the Eliza method, which was positive.
Speaker 2: Based on that positive result, I ran the conformation method
Speaker 2: on the urine which identified the specific drugs that were
Speaker 2: present and then identified in urine nor diazepam, oxazepam, temazipam,
Speaker 2: and lurazepam. And based on your training experience, when it
Speaker 2: comes to those substances, if it's detected in either blood
Speaker 2: or does it mean that there are those four separate
Speaker 2: substances or could they be derivatives of one particular drug.
Speaker 19: Yes, each of those substances is available as its own drug.
Speaker 19: You can get prescriptions from them, you can purchase them. However,
Speaker 19: diazepam that's more commonly used than nordiazipam, oxazepam, and tenazipam
Speaker 19: breaks down into those other three substances. So often when
Speaker 19: we detect nordiazepam, oxazepam, and tenazipam, they actually are present
Speaker 19: in the body because diazepam or another benzodiazepin was initially
Speaker 19: taken and it broke down to those three.
Speaker 2: But as far as your testing is when it comes
Speaker 2: to urine, you can't determine or quantify what it was
Speaker 2: or if it was one drug or multiple. Correct. Now,
Speaker 2: in this particular case, you indicated that there was also
Speaker 2: further testing done on the blood. Correct. Yes, And was
Speaker 2: it a well for the benzodiazepines. Yes, and that was
Speaker 2: just because that was your role in the batch testing
Speaker 2: for this case. Yes, what were the results in the
Speaker 2: testing of the benzodiazepines in the blood?
Speaker 19: The blood contained eight point eight nanograms per mil a
Speaker 19: leader of diazepam and twenty nanograms per mila leader of
Speaker 19: nordiazepam and four point eight nanograms per mil of oxazipam,
Speaker 19: and one point nine nanograms per mil of tmaza pam
Speaker 19: and sixty one nanograms per mil of lurazapam.
Speaker 2: And in your role in this testing process, you're just
Speaker 2: running the equipment, running the test and getting the data correct.
Speaker 2: There is some analysis of the data.
Speaker 19: I have to ensure that the controls performed appropriately, that
Speaker 19: the instrument was running properly, and make a decision based
Speaker 19: on the instrument data what I considered to be positive
Speaker 19: or not. But then it's handed off to an other
Speaker 19: analysts who generates the final report.
Speaker 2: And in this case, where all the controls appropriate, all
Speaker 2: the equipment running effectively, and everything done according to the
Speaker 2: policies and procedures of the lab.
Speaker 19: Ultimately all of the relevant controls that were associated with
Speaker 19: the samples performed appropriately.
Speaker 2: What did you do with the information or the data
Speaker 2: that you received as a result of these tests? What
Speaker 2: did you do with it?
Speaker 19: I put it together in a batch file that contained
Speaker 19: all the data for my analysis. It contained the case
Speaker 19: data for the samples that were run on that day,
Speaker 19: as well as all the control data that was run
Speaker 19: simultaneously and other traceability type info.
Speaker 2: And gave it to another analyst who reviewed.
Speaker 19: It to ensure that laboratory policies and procedures were followed,
Speaker 19: that the controls performed appropriately in order to report the results,
Speaker 19: and that the results were scientifically accurate. And then after
Speaker 19: that analyst agreed with my findings. The data was.
Speaker 2: Put into the individual case lifeles, and in this case,
Speaker 2: the reporting analyst for the entire lab lab number of
Speaker 2: twenty three DASH zero one seven two three was in
Speaker 2: fact somebody by the name of Nicholas Roberts. Correct. Yes,
Speaker 2: And you're aware that there were other forensic scientists who
Speaker 2: did other testing for other types of drugs in the
Speaker 2: same test, but it wasn't part of your role or
Speaker 2: your batch. Correct, Thank you.
Speaker 3: It's greaty.
Speaker 5: So the toxicology report you're familiar with was dated February
Speaker 5: twenty fourth of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Is that correct? Do you have it in front of you?
Speaker 2: I can't refer today, Yeah, great.
Speaker 5: Thank you, yes, okay, and you can keep it right
Speaker 5: there and look at it, and then you have it
Speaker 5: makes reference to your lab number, and then it talks
Speaker 5: about the specimens that you've indicated, which would be the
Speaker 5: toxicology blood times for seren plasma you noted seren plasma
Speaker 5: and then urine right, yes. And when you say serum plasma,
Speaker 5: what is that? Is that just a breakdown of the
Speaker 5: blood or is it that that was actual plasma that
Speaker 5: was submitted? How did that come about? As opposed to
Speaker 5: the actual blood. In items number one, two, and.
Speaker 19: Three, we received samples that were taken for medical reasons,
Speaker 19: and the sample that was initially drawn would have been blood,
Speaker 19: but the hospital would have separated the blood cells from
Speaker 19: the liquid portion of the sample prior to it being
Speaker 19: submitted to our lab. So what I received it it
Speaker 19: was serum plasma, but it would have initially been blood.
Speaker 5: Okay, And likewise with the urine correct, yes, And you
Speaker 5: received all of these items in indicating light blue top tube,
Speaker 5: potassium oxalate, sodium fluoride that would just so prevent coagulation.
Speaker 2: Right, yes.
Speaker 5: And then looking down further, it says on the toxicology
Speaker 5: blood you make rep too, as you indicated the eight
Speaker 5: point eight diazepam, the nord diazepam, the ox azipam, tamazepam, razipam,
Speaker 5: and you're putting down would that be nanograms per miller
Speaker 5: leaders n G M L Yes, okay, And it's kind
Speaker 5: of had to follow through with that, so I'm going
Speaker 5: to approach you this is a copy.
Speaker 3: Of the blood toxicology before that you're referring.
Speaker 2: To, right, sure, of course, yes, And.
Speaker 5: This is the tox report for Lindsey Clancy right, yes,
Speaker 5: and it's making reference to incident data January twenty fourth
Speaker 5: and twenty three, correctly.
Speaker 3: Yes, ob chichen.
Speaker 8: No, that may be admitted.
Speaker 3: You can continue.
Speaker 5: You then make reference to organic bases and neutrals, right, yes?
Speaker 5: Can you tell me what is an organic basin a neutral?
Speaker 3: What does that mean?
Speaker 2: That refers to?
Speaker 19: So the line above that the organic acids and neutrals
Speaker 19: and the organic bases and neutrals refer to the results
Speaker 19: from the general unknown screen, which is another screen that
Speaker 19: was performed by a different analyst.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 5: Do you know who the analyst was, Lisa Yell And
Speaker 5: would that be with the Department of the Massachusetts State Police?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 5: Okay, And as it relates to the Talks report, it
Speaker 5: also notes that what is an organic base and a neutral?
Speaker 3: What does that mean? Though? I just don't know.
Speaker 19: This testing procedure separates the drugs present in the sample
Speaker 19: into drugs that are more basic in nature and drugs
Speaker 19: that are more acidic in nature. This test looks for
Speaker 19: several hundred types of drugs, and so in order to
Speaker 19: customize the extraction method to target certain drugs, the sample
Speaker 19: is divided into two fractions.
Speaker 5: So, in other words, it gives you a broader spectrum,
Speaker 5: if you will, of the drugs that would be in
Speaker 5: the person's uh sample of their blood, right, yes, And
Speaker 5: that detected meritazepine, right yes, maatrogene right yes, probably mispronouncing
Speaker 5: this quietapinetiopine, quotiopene, and quotiopine metabolite, right, yes, as well
Speaker 5: as trazodone right correct, And just tell me what is
Speaker 5: a metabolite?
Speaker 3: What does that mean? Tiopine metabolite.
Speaker 19: When we consume drugs, our body will break down the drug,
Speaker 19: often into another molecule before it's being extreted, and sometimes
Speaker 19: our testing can detect these breakdown molecules as well. So
Speaker 19: this test detected both quotiopine as well as its breakdown product.
Speaker 5: So there was that would indicate that there was critiopine
Speaker 5: that was in the blood as well as a quotyopine
Speaker 5: metabolite or a breakdown over a passage of time.
Speaker 10: Yes.
Speaker 3: Also, just you guys checked for everything.
Speaker 5: There's no alcohol detected, right correct, noemphetamines detected, right correct.
Speaker 5: It was a benzo screen that was positive, which we've
Speaker 5: already talked about, correct, yes, uh, we but penofarine screen
Speaker 5: none detected, right, Yes, cocaine, infentanyl none right, yes, methamphetamines
Speaker 5: none correct, it's none, yes, cannabinoids that would be weed,
Speaker 5: right none.
Speaker 2: It's the active molecule in there.
Speaker 3: Okay, Uh, Diazepam none.
Speaker 5: Yes, nor diazepam detected correct, oxes pam detected yes, term
Speaker 5: az apam detected yes, detected right yes. And then finally
Speaker 5: it says organic acids and neutrals none detected.
Speaker 3: Right yes, And then you talk about that would be
Speaker 3: the acids.
Speaker 5: Then you talk about the actual organic bases, and it
Speaker 5: lists all of the other items that we just went through.
Speaker 5: Trazodone trasidome metabolite for example, So you have the trasidon
Speaker 5: plus to break down of the metabolite, you have the
Speaker 5: mertazepine as well as metazepine metabolite, right correct, the matrogene quietipene,
Speaker 5: and the quietipine metabolite right correct.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 5: You would also, in your direct examination made reference to another.
Speaker 3: Lab that you all work with. Apparently they've had occasion
Speaker 3: to work with right.
Speaker 2: Occasionally we have sent samples to another lab.
Speaker 5: Okay, would that be NMS Labs located in Horsesham h
Speaker 5: u r Saha, n Pennsylvania.
Speaker 19: NMS labs. I don't recall the location of the lab.
Speaker 5: Okay, but you know NMS labs and that's pretty well known, right, yes,
Speaker 5: you guys right? And was a sample Lev Lindsay's blood
Speaker 5: sent to that place as well?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 5: And were there results for that as a result of
Speaker 5: the examination.
Speaker 8: I believe?
Speaker 3: So, okay, I'm going to approach you with far sure,
Speaker 3: all right, redirect?
Speaker 17: Okay, thank you, mam said down thing, thank you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, come on, common would call Lisa Yell? Thanks?
Speaker 17: Oh you good afternoon, aie, come thank you?
Speaker 2: Good ascanoon, ma'am. Can you please tell the jurors your
Speaker 2: first and last name.
Speaker 8: My name is Lisa Yell spelled y E l l E.
Speaker 2: And what do you do for work?
Speaker 8: I currently work at a biotech pharmacy company.
Speaker 2: Did you work for the Massachusetts Please Crime Lab at
Speaker 2: some point?
Speaker 3: Yes? I did?
Speaker 2: And how long did you work for the crime lab?
Speaker 8: For fifteen years?
Speaker 2: And in January of twenty twenty three? What unit were
Speaker 2: you working with at the crime lab?
Speaker 8: The toxicology unit?
Speaker 2: Okay, and more specifically, I guess February of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: were still in that unit.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Now I'm just going to draw your attention right to
Speaker 2: this particular case. We're talking about labatory number twenty three
Speaker 2: dash zero one seven two three. Did you do any
Speaker 2: batch work on this particular case?
Speaker 8: Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: And what testing did you do in relation to the
Speaker 2: samples of this lab number?
Speaker 8: It was a test that was known as the general
Speaker 8: unknown screen.
Speaker 2: Can you tell the jury what the general unknown screen does?
Speaker 2: What it tests?
Speaker 8: For sure? That's a screening test for drugs.
Speaker 21: It essentially would test for hundreds of different prescription medications
Speaker 21: or drugs of abuse.
Speaker 2: And in this particular test, the general unknown screen, is
Speaker 2: there a portion of testing in the lab for general
Speaker 2: unknowns that would allow you to quantify when certain substances
Speaker 2: are detected?
Speaker 21: The General unknown screen is not a quanti viable test.
Speaker 21: It's just an identification screen. So you wouldn't be able
Speaker 21: to attribute a specific level of the drug, but just
Speaker 21: the identification that it was present or not.
Speaker 2: So it would be a detected or non detected situation.
Speaker 8: Correct.
Speaker 2: And in this particular case, items ten one zero one
Speaker 2: involved a vile of blood that was submitted to the laboratory. Correct, Yes,
Speaker 2: and you did the general unknown screen for the blood?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And what were the substances that were detected in that
Speaker 2: sample of blood.
Speaker 21: Would I be able to reference sure, just to ensure
Speaker 21: that I'm attributing everything.
Speaker 2: Eighty three is that refresher memories to the substances. Yes,
Speaker 2: for tazepinemtrogene, tras doon the doonem.
Speaker 21: In that test, there was a syringe issue, which means essentially,
Speaker 21: if you consider a needle that has a plunger on
Speaker 21: the top, it would have essentially gotten stuck at some
Speaker 21: point within the batch run, which could run for twenty
Speaker 21: four to forty eight hours. It's a very lengthy run.
Speaker 21: So once the error is notified, it's a very simple switch.
Speaker 21: You just pull the syringe out, place it back, place
Speaker 21: a new one back into that same spot, and then
Speaker 21: you would restart your run from that point forward, including
Speaker 21: a control just to ensure that the instrument is still
Speaker 21: functioning the way that it should.
Speaker 2: And so would that type of error that you observed
Speaker 2: in the equipment affect the results of the test not
Speaker 2: in any way. And in addition to the testing or
Speaker 2: running this general unknown screen on the blood, you also
Speaker 2: ran a general unknown screen on urine which was identified
Speaker 2: as item ten dash two zero one. Correct.
Speaker 8: That's correct?
Speaker 2: And were those same substances detected in the urine.
Speaker 8: Yes, they were.
Speaker 2: And again, as far as those particular substances in the
Speaker 2: general unknown screen are known screen tests for urine, are
Speaker 2: you able to quantify it in any way?
Speaker 14: No?
Speaker 2: Is it fair to say that there are other laboratories
Speaker 2: across the country that potentially could quantify those substances. Yes,
Speaker 2: And so in this case, are you aware that there
Speaker 2: were samples of the blood and that were sent to
Speaker 2: another lab because of those positive tests for those substances?
Speaker 8: I am not aware.
Speaker 2: Okay, you weren't the reporting analysts in this case? Correct?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 2: I was not. So after you did those general unknown
Speaker 2: screens in the blood in the urine, what did you
Speaker 2: do with the information the testing.
Speaker 21: Every independent sample receives its own summary sheet where you
Speaker 21: document any possible drugs that were detected. All of the
Speaker 21: sheets are submitted to what's called a batch review, so
Speaker 21: a secondary person will independently review everything and ensure that
Speaker 21: they have that drew the same conclusions that I did.
Speaker 21: Once both people have agreed, all of the paperwork that
Speaker 21: is generated as filed within the respective case files, and
Speaker 21: then that's later submitted to an analyst at random to
Speaker 21: author the report and review the entirety of the case.
Speaker 2: And in this particular case for Lab number twenty three
Speaker 2: zero one seven two three, you're aware that Nicholas Roberts
Speaker 2: was the reporting analyst correct correct and any decisions on
Speaker 2: any further testing were likely made through him.
Speaker 21: In your experience, yes, it definitely would not have been
Speaker 21: part of the role for someone doing a portion of
Speaker 21: the testing within a case.
Speaker 2: And as far as the particular substances that were detected
Speaker 2: when you are running these tests, it doesn't tell you
Speaker 2: that there were several different drugs that were necessarily consumed
Speaker 2: by the individual.
Speaker 8: Correct finish in your question, well, are there.
Speaker 2: Certain substances that come up in these screens that could
Speaker 2: be attributable to the same type of drug?
Speaker 21: There are certain we would call them parent drugs metabolites.
Speaker 21: Once you ingest the medication, your body will begin to
Speaker 21: metabolize or break that drug down, So there could be
Speaker 21: metabolites that are related to the parent compound of the
Speaker 21: medication that was taken.
Speaker 2: So where there were five there were five positive or
Speaker 2: detected substances, doesn't mean that there was five specific substances,
Speaker 2: especially where there was a metabolite detected. Correct I guess that.
Speaker 21: I'm not sure I follow your question again, that's okay.
Speaker 2: As far as these particular items or these particular substances
Speaker 2: that were detected in these screens, weren't able to provide
Speaker 2: any further information for final review other than they were detected, correct,
Speaker 2: thank you. Nothing further.
Speaker 5: Basically, as the court knows, we agree to this, We
Speaker 5: stipulate to all of this. As far as the blood
Speaker 5: that chain, the custody, the testing, you didn't have any
Speaker 5: problems with the quality of.
Speaker 3: The testing, right, It was good test.
Speaker 8: It was a good test.
Speaker 5: So and the results that have been described numerous times.
Speaker 5: There's the reference to metabolite and there's five drugs, doesn't
Speaker 5: mean there's five drugs that could be one drug.
Speaker 3: With a metabolite.
Speaker 5: All the metabolite means is that it's a breakdown of
Speaker 5: the same drug at some point, right, correct, Like if
Speaker 5: you're smoking marijuana or something you have CABOXI nine or
Speaker 5: whatever they follow, it can be some residue in your blood.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, the way that from the breakdown, Yes.
Speaker 5: And the lab the console was referring to again would
Speaker 5: be the is it the n MS lab. You're familiar
Speaker 5: with that and that lab does exist. Yes, yeah, and
Speaker 5: what does that mean? Do you know what n MS means?
Speaker 5: Is like national something?
Speaker 8: I'm not familiar with the acronym.
Speaker 3: All right, thank you, it's all I have. Thanks, thank you,
Speaker 3: we said thank you.
Speaker 2: Col Cybaris.
Speaker 4: At this point, I'm gonna ask you to come back
Speaker 4: two o'clock. There's another couple of witnesses.
Speaker 3: We still want.
Speaker 4: I'm not even gonna make it spend, but we'll have
Speaker 4: a couple of witnesses this afternoon.
Speaker 3: We'll kind of see where we go.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, thank.
Speaker 20: You, all right, please sure, all right, so we'll be
Speaker 20: recess on this matter till two o'clock.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you.
Speaker 9: We're not that.
Speaker 3: This is the Bringham A woman's.
Speaker 7: Policies and procedures were followed in this case and three.
Speaker 7: In addition to forensic scientists, to Alicia Zimmerman being the
Speaker 7: assigned analyst and processing samples associated with case number two
Speaker 7: three DASH zero one eight seven five Core Clancy Laboratory
Speaker 7: staff at the following roles.
Speaker 4: In the testing process.
Speaker 7: A Brittany Massette and Natalie Law conducted screening analysis on
Speaker 7: item one DASH DASH one, which was the heart blood
Speaker 7: of Cora Clancy B Henna Knowles conducted batch review analysis
Speaker 7: of screening tests conducted by Massette and law c. Marissa
Speaker 7: Dreyer and Seth Utter conducted further analysis on items one
Speaker 7: DASH one DASH one. D Emily McCall and Jacob O'Connell
Speaker 7: conducted batch review analysis of testing by Dryer and Utter, respectively. E. T.
Speaker 7: She Washington conducted a technical review of the entire case
Speaker 7: prior to the issuance of Alicia Zimmerman's report, and F.
Speaker 7: Jennifer Mahea documented the measurements of the specimens collected for
Speaker 7: possible post bortem toxicology testing. So that's the stipulation UH
Speaker 7: on Exhibit one A four regarding the test testing related
Speaker 7: to Cora clans. Exhibit one eighty five is a stipulation
Speaker 7: regarding postbortem toxicology testing relating to Dawson clancy and so
Speaker 7: number one.
Speaker 4: In accordance with.
Speaker 7: Laboratory policy and procedure, laboratory staff screen analyze and review
Speaker 7: samples submitted for testing using batch testing processing prior to
Speaker 7: final review and interpretation by the assigned analyst.
Speaker 2: Two.
Speaker 7: All policies and procedures were followed in this case. Three,
Speaker 7: in addition to forensic scientists. I Alicia Zimmerman being the
Speaker 7: assigned analyst and processing samples associated with case number two
Speaker 7: three DASH zero one eight seven four, which was Dawson Clancy.
Speaker 7: Laboratory staff had the following.
Speaker 4: Roles in the testing process. A.
Speaker 7: Brittany Massett and Natalie Law conducted screening analysis on item
Speaker 7: one DASH one DASH one, which was the heart blood
Speaker 7: of Dawson Clancy. B. Hannah Knowles conducted batch review analysis
Speaker 7: of screening tests conducted by.
Speaker 4: Massette and Law. C.
Speaker 7: Marissa Dryer and Seth Utter conducted further analysis an item
Speaker 7: one DASH one DASH one. D Emily McCall and Jacob
Speaker 7: O'Connell conducted batch review analysis of testing by Dryer and Utter, respectfully. E. T.
Speaker 7: She Washington conducted a technical review of the entire case
Speaker 7: prior to the issuance of Alicia Zimmerman's report, and F.
Speaker 7: Jennifer Mahea document documented the measurements of the specimens collected
Speaker 7: for possible post boredem toxicology testing.
Speaker 4: And that's the.
Speaker 7: Exhibit regarding Dawson Clancy. And then the last stipulation at
Speaker 7: this time is Exhibit one eight six, and that stipulation
Speaker 7: is regarding the postmortem toxicology testing of kalum clancy and
Speaker 7: number one. In accordance with laboratory policy and procedures, laboratory
Speaker 7: staff screen analyze and review samples submitted for testing using
Speaker 7: batch testing processing prior to final.
Speaker 4: Review and interpretation by the assigned analyst.
Speaker 3: Two.
Speaker 7: All policies and procedures were followed in this case.
Speaker 3: Three.
Speaker 7: In addition to forensic scientists II Alicia Zimmerman being the
Speaker 7: assigned analyst and processing samples associated with case number two
Speaker 7: three DASH zero two one four, which was for calm clancy,
Speaker 7: laboratory staff had the following roles in the testing process. A.
Speaker 4: Brittany Massett was.
Speaker 7: A screening analyst for item one DASH one DASH one,
Speaker 7: which was blood from Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital in Plymouth.
Speaker 7: B Natalie Law and Marissa Dreyer conducted further analysis on
Speaker 7: item one DASH one dash OH one. C. Hannah Knowles
Speaker 7: and Emily McCall conducted batch review analysis of item one
Speaker 7: DASH one dash OH one. D. Seth Utter conducted analysis
Speaker 7: on item one DASH one dash O seven, which was
Speaker 7: blood from Boston Children's Hospital and one DASH one dash
Speaker 7: OH four, which was urine from Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital, Plymouth. E.
Speaker 7: Nathaniel al Meta conducted batch review analysis on item one
Speaker 7: Dash one Dash O seven, and F. Robert Anderson conducted
Speaker 7: batch review analysis on item one Dash one Dash zero four.
Speaker 7: He also conducted a technical review of the entire case
Speaker 7: prior to the issuance of Alicia Zimmerman's report, and G.
Speaker 7: Jennifer Mahea documented the measurements of the specimens collected for
Speaker 7: possible post bortem poxicology testing.
Speaker 4: So those are the stipulations at this time. Keep it
Speaker 4: in mind. Do you'll have those with you and everything
Speaker 4: that's contained there with you back in the jeri room.
Speaker 17: Okay, all right, come on, thank you? All right, well,
Speaker 17: good afternoon, all.
Speaker 2: Right, come on, thank you. Could you please tell the
Speaker 2: jurors your first and list name, Alisha Zimmerman. Would you
Speaker 2: mind spelling your last name for the record.
Speaker 10: Z I M M E R M A N N.
Speaker 2: And where do you work?
Speaker 9: I work at the Massachusetts please Crime Lab.
Speaker 2: And where do you work at the crime lab?
Speaker 10: I'm in the tuxcology unit.
Speaker 2: And what's your role there?
Speaker 10: I'm a forensic scientist too.
Speaker 2: How long have you been with the crime lab?
Speaker 9: Since August two? Thousand and fourteen, and in order to
Speaker 9: work in.
Speaker 2: The toxicology unit, did you receive some specialized training and education. Yes.
Speaker 19: I have a.
Speaker 9: Bachelor's of Science some forensic science from the Pennsylvania State University,
Speaker 9: a Masters of Science some forensic science from the Virginia
Speaker 9: Commonwealth University. I also completed the Toxicology sorry Toxicologies Units
Speaker 9: training program, which included wet lab work, literature review, competency exams,
Speaker 9: and written exams.
Speaker 2: And in your role as a forensic scientist too at
Speaker 2: the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab Toxicology Unit, you're familiar
Speaker 2: with the bat review testing. Yes, And as part of
Speaker 2: that process of working the workflow being in batches. Is
Speaker 2: it fair to say, at various points, different members of
Speaker 2: the unit are a science to different tasks within the
Speaker 2: toxicraft unit, and at some point you might be doing
Speaker 2: work on a case where you're actually asked to author
Speaker 2: or report at the end of the testing. Is that
Speaker 2: fair to say? Yes, if you're authorized, and are you
Speaker 2: authorized to issue reports? Yes? And what kind of forensic
Speaker 2: or excuse me, toxicology testing are you authorized to issue
Speaker 2: reports for?
Speaker 10: I'm authorized for post mortem investigation.
Speaker 2: Now as it pertains to post mortem investigation in the
Speaker 2: toxicology unit. Where does the sample? Where do samples come from?
Speaker 9: So the samples are submitted from the Office of the
Speaker 9: Chief Medical Examiner to the Evidence Control unit in Subbarry.
Speaker 10: They then assign a.
Speaker 9: Unique LIMBS number it's the Laboratory Information Management System number
Speaker 9: and a corresponding barcode to the evidence. They then transport
Speaker 9: the evidence to our unit in Maynard. And then we
Speaker 9: put the evidence into our custody sample a sample the
Speaker 9: evidence and assigned testing to it.
Speaker 2: And so when a sample comes to you in a
Speaker 2: post mortem situation, that's because somebody has passed away. Correct, Correct,
Speaker 2: And there doesn't always have to be a corresponding state
Speaker 2: police crime lab investigation.
Speaker 10: No, our cases are separate.
Speaker 2: So your case comes to you and gets a separate
Speaker 2: lab number from the crime lab. Correct, And it also
Speaker 2: is tracked by a lab number or a case number
Speaker 2: from the Medical Examiner's office crest. And so when you
Speaker 2: receive in the post mortem toxicology samples, do you sometimes
Speaker 2: receive blood?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: At times? Do you also receive urine samples?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: What types of screening test does the post mortem toxicology testing?
Speaker 2: What are the screening tests used? In those instances. Are
Speaker 2: those cases I should say, now when it starts circumstance
Speaker 2: where the discedent or the person who died is a child,
Speaker 2: there are additional screens that can be done. Yes, And
Speaker 2: what's the additional screen? In a child case?
Speaker 9: If the discedent is equal to or less than equal
Speaker 9: to sorry less than are equal to eleven years old?
Speaker 9: We also perform in Eliza pediatric panel, a generally known
Speaker 9: screen for acidic and neutral drugs, and a vitreous chemistry analysis.
Speaker 2: Now, in cases where your unit receives these samples from
Speaker 2: the medical examiner and a screening test is done, if
Speaker 2: no substance is detected in either of those three screens,
Speaker 2: or if in a pediatric case that fourth screen, what happens.
Speaker 10: No further testing is performed, and so.
Speaker 2: If you are the reporting analyst in those cases, you
Speaker 2: would simply know none detected. Yes, Okay, I'm going to
Speaker 2: draw your attention to a case that was submitted by
Speaker 2: the medical examiner in January of twenty twenty three. I
Speaker 2: think your unit might have reviewed the evidence in February
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three. Are you familiar with the case
Speaker 2: involving three different post mortem toxicology testing, but all related.
Speaker 10: They are three separate reports, right that you're.
Speaker 2: Where that the children that were the subjects were related.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So, just referring to first what's identified as the state
Speaker 2: police lab number twenty three DASH two one four to one,
Speaker 2: involving the decendent, Calan Clancy, you recall receiving several items
Speaker 2: in the post mortem toxicology unit to test. Yes, and
Speaker 2: it included toxicology blood that was taken from the Beth
Speaker 2: Israel Deaconess Hospital in Plymouth, Right, is that correct, as
Speaker 2: well as blood that was collected from the Children's Hospital
Speaker 2: in Boston. Yes, and urine also collected from the Beth
Speaker 2: Israel Deaconess Hospital in Plymouth. Yes, And we're screens done
Speaker 2: on the samples, namely the blood from bid Plymouth, the
Speaker 2: urine from bid Plymouth, and the blood from Children's hospital.
Speaker 2: Were any substances detected on those three screens and the
Speaker 2: pediatric screen that you've just described to the jury, No,
Speaker 2: they were not. And as far as the next case,
Speaker 2: which would be Laboratory number twenty three Dish zero one
Speaker 2: eight seven five, the discedent being Cora Clancy, you received
Speaker 2: some heart blood from the medical examiner's office post mortem correct, Yes.
Speaker 2: And as far as that, were those screening tests conducted
Speaker 2: in this case for Cora, Yes? And were there any
Speaker 2: substances detected?
Speaker 10: No, we did not detect anything.
Speaker 2: And as far as laboratory number twenty three dish zero
Speaker 2: one eight seven four, which is the discendent Dawson Clancy,
Speaker 2: your unit received an item one dash one zero one
Speaker 2: of heart blood from Dawson Clancy correct, Yes, and that
Speaker 2: was also post mortem.
Speaker 10: Yes.
Speaker 2: And where those screening tests, those same three tests plus
Speaker 2: the pediatric test run for Dawson correct, Where any substances detected?
Speaker 9: No, they were not.
Speaker 2: And so where in each one of these three separate
Speaker 2: cases there were okay?
Speaker 5: And Marine Hattnett would be classified.
Speaker 22: As what she's a forensic scientist as well, the step
Speaker 22: below me of forensic scientists scientists too, okay, and she's
Speaker 22: is she.
Speaker 5: The one that does testing on objects or items or
Speaker 5: substances to see if there are particular.
Speaker 3: For example, blood, She does do that.
Speaker 22: She is also trained in documentation of blood stains. So
Speaker 22: generally that's why we do a lot of our examination
Speaker 22: through photos. So a forensic friend scientists too could be
Speaker 22: at the scene, do all of the documentation, make sure
Speaker 22: the photos are taken, and then those are examined back
Speaker 22: at the laboratory by a In our case in Massachusetts,
Speaker 22: it's all supervisors in the crime scene response to NET
Speaker 22: that do blood stained pattern analysis. We are also all
Speaker 22: trained in the identification of those biological fluids, doing a
Speaker 22: screening test as well as a confirmatory test for blood.
Speaker 5: I don't want to be referred to as grumpy, but
Speaker 5: I'm just going to ask if you can just kind
Speaker 5: of keep your answers done a little.
Speaker 3: Bit, like maybe a yes and the sentence after that, okay, okay.
Speaker 5: So when you go to a crime scene, you're usually
Speaker 5: with a team in otherwords, like Martine Hautton might be
Speaker 5: there right correct, and other state troopers might be there
Speaker 5: searching the area, right correct.
Speaker 3: And one of the things that you are doing is.
Speaker 5: Relying, if you will, on your associates or other people
Speaker 5: that are working that particular crime scene to do appropriate
Speaker 5: and adequate testing of substances.
Speaker 3: Right correct.
Speaker 5: So, for example, and again when you're investigating on a
Speaker 5: murder case and you're dealing with substances that are deposited.
Speaker 3: For example, in that in the master bid, it's.
Speaker 5: Not appropriate if you will to speculate that something is blood,
Speaker 5: and that's why it's referred to as.
Speaker 3: A red brown stain.
Speaker 2: Right correct?
Speaker 5: Do we use but your experience is such that you
Speaker 5: have a wealth of knowledge as to the ability to
Speaker 5: draw an inference as to what it might be.
Speaker 22: Right, We're not able to look at a red brown
Speaker 22: stain and call it blood. We call it by adjectives,
Speaker 22: so it would be deemed as a red brown stain.
Speaker 22: We have to wait until we do a confirmatory test
Speaker 22: to say whether we call it human blood or not.
Speaker 5: So when you say a confirmatory test, you're referring to
Speaker 5: the fact that because screening tests you can do that
Speaker 5: initially would determine.
Speaker 3: If it's possibly blood, right correct.
Speaker 5: Then it goes to the next phase, which would be
Speaker 5: a confirmatory test, which Miss Heartnett would do right correct,
Speaker 5: And then you go to the determination as to whether
Speaker 5: it's animal or human. It might be a primary blood,
Speaker 5: but it could be a human blood, and then you
Speaker 5: determine that it's human blood.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 22: The next step step after Maureene is actual DNA, so
Speaker 22: it will tell you whether it's human or not human,
Speaker 22: and who's blood it actually is.
Speaker 5: Okay, So we know that there was a transfer stain
Speaker 5: from the inside of the house, if you will, onto
Speaker 5: that ledge on the right hand side of the window, right.
Speaker 10: I believe it was on the left hand side.
Speaker 5: Okay, So as you're looking out the window, it's your
Speaker 5: understanding that the smudge, if you will.
Speaker 2: That was on that window was on the left hand side,
Speaker 2: I believe. So. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Exhibit one oh six that shows the first floor window
Speaker 3: right correct, and then further up.
Speaker 2: It shows the second floor right correct.
Speaker 5: So if one was standing on the inside of the
Speaker 5: master bedroom and leaned on it with blood on their
Speaker 5: hand or red substance, it would be on the right
Speaker 5: hand side of that.
Speaker 2: Ledge on the window, right correct.
Speaker 22: The one on the outside was on the right hand side.
Speaker 22: The one on the inside I believe was on the
Speaker 22: left hand side.
Speaker 3: Now you know that that was not testing, right.
Speaker 10: I don't know if it was tested.
Speaker 3: You don't know what it is, right.
Speaker 10: I called it a red brown stain.
Speaker 23: But the bottom line is, from your experience looking at
Speaker 23: that bedroom with all of what you determined in the
Speaker 23: determined in the investigation to be blood, the inference that
Speaker 23: you would draw is.
Speaker 3: That that's blood somebody's hand right.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 3: So it shows in.
Speaker 5: Exhibit one O five the same window with a little
Speaker 5: hornet ball or that substance that was injected like insulation
Speaker 5: is what I think you described it, that also has
Speaker 5: red brown substance on it.
Speaker 3: Correct.
Speaker 22: I don't know from that picture. I only looked at
Speaker 22: the stain that was on the windowsill, right.
Speaker 3: Did you look at them at all? That object?
Speaker 2: Because I did not?
Speaker 13: Just okay, would you agree that underneath that window would
Speaker 13: be the two equidistance if you will, red brown stains
Speaker 13: on the shingles, right, correct, And that would be an
Speaker 13: object or something that has blood or you don't know
Speaker 13: if it's blooded red brown.
Speaker 3: Steam on hands or something that was a transfer onto
Speaker 3: that side.
Speaker 2: Of the house, right correct.
Speaker 5: Other areas of the bedroom, for example, console showed you
Speaker 5: the door coming into the bedroom and there were two
Speaker 5: brock marks of the red brown stains. You know, those
Speaker 5: were never even tested. I'm just saying this everdicates it
Speaker 5: was never tested. Right, But you're assuming failing that that
Speaker 5: would be blood, right.
Speaker 22: I don't know whether they were tested, but I deemed
Speaker 22: those that they were blood in my examination, and blood
Speaker 22: on the.
Speaker 3: Doorknob itself too, So that from the inside.
Speaker 2: Of the going out right the windowsill.
Speaker 10: I don't know of any red brown stains on the doorknob.
Speaker 3: Now the knife photograph of the Knight, and you call that.
Speaker 5: That has that linear stain that you referred to, that
Speaker 5: you you were able to observe correct, correct, And looking.
Speaker 3: At Exhibit one sixty two, that would show.
Speaker 5: The left side that you were referring to as to
Speaker 5: the red marks or or the blood if you will,
Speaker 5: in the window.
Speaker 22: Right, correct, That was the left side interier of the
Speaker 22: window that I examined to.
Speaker 5: So that would be again drawing an inference, would because
Speaker 5: somewhat conceivable with a person with blood on their hands
Speaker 5: leaning on the window with this portion of the hand out.
Speaker 3: He has this portion of the hand on the inside,
Speaker 3: leaving the transfer.
Speaker 2: Right a hand or some sort of bloody object.
Speaker 5: Yes, and the knife also has the transfer that you
Speaker 5: can see now is that coagulated.
Speaker 1: Blood you know.
Speaker 2: In which area?
Speaker 5: But with a knife, I mean you see that linear line.
Speaker 5: It almost looks like the knife was put down with
Speaker 5: blood on it and then it coagulated or it got sticky,
Speaker 5: I guess, and then it was moved again.
Speaker 12: Is that you wouldn't call it coagulation.
Speaker 2: So if you're referring to the linear line.
Speaker 22: Okay, bloodstained pattern terminology. But they were on top of
Speaker 22: the linear line, all right, And you.
Speaker 5: Would agree with me that one of the inferences that
Speaker 5: would possibly be drawn is that something banged into it
Speaker 5: or moved.
Speaker 3: It one or the other.
Speaker 22: Yes, correct, to get that original linear line, and then
Speaker 22: for the knife to be in a different position.
Speaker 3: Now the photograph in Exhibit five.
Speaker 2: Is the mirror correct?
Speaker 3: And then you were referring to.
Speaker 22: The drip marks on the mirror, so I referred to
Speaker 22: them either as drip stains or spatter stains.
Speaker 13: Because I was not able that would be consistent with
Speaker 13: some type of a highlight movement, would it not?
Speaker 5: I mean the christ is cutting their throat, for example,
Speaker 5: and then cast off into the mirror or leaning I
Speaker 5: guess considered a name.
Speaker 24: So it would be either due to gravity or due
Speaker 24: to blood in flight, So a force applied sending that
Speaker 24: blood to land on there, or drip due to gravity.
Speaker 3: And blood in flight.
Speaker 5: The difference would be that it's cast off. If you
Speaker 5: roll from the knife going in a particular direction towards the.
Speaker 22: Mirror, right, it would be a spatter stain coming off
Speaker 22: of any sort of blood source, whether it be the
Speaker 22: tip of a knife, a cut on the hand, something
Speaker 22: in flight.
Speaker 3: Oh ahead, you think I redirect.
Speaker 25: So you were asked about the documentation and let lit
Speaker 25: of samples of red bround stains at a scene, and
Speaker 25: that there is an initial test done at the scene,
Speaker 25: typically to determine if it might be blood.
Speaker 22: Correct, correct, and that we do a screening test called
Speaker 22: the castel Meyer test, so it identifies possible blood. It
Speaker 22: does not identify whether it's human or animal, though, and.
Speaker 25: When that test is positive, but you have a limited sample,
Speaker 25: you sometimes get the confirmatory step and.
Speaker 1: Send it right to DNA or correct.
Speaker 22: If it's a limited sample, so a smaller stain like
Speaker 22: something like a spatter stain, we may not do the
Speaker 22: in between step, which is our confirmatory test, because we
Speaker 22: don't want to use up any portion that we've collected,
Speaker 22: so we would go right to DNA for that testing
Speaker 22: if it's a smaller sample
Speaker 25: And then the DNA testing can tell you if that
Speaker 25: breadground state is from a human and