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<v Speaker 1>Full trial audio.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything hurt in court, no silences to skip. Good morning,

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<v Speaker 2>you're on America.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, please?

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<v Speaker 2>Today we have all right.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, good morning council, morning, Miss Clancy.

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<v Speaker 3>All right, a ca se council side by.

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<v Speaker 5>Please, hey, hey all Russon is having anything to do

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<v Speaker 5>for the AUDI?

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<v Speaker 2>Will you result just the spirit then you shall be

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<v Speaker 2>heard of Massachusetts. This is down session.

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<v Speaker 3>Please be seated.

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<v Speaker 6>Good morning, you're on americacy, yes, please want to be

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<v Speaker 6>for the court. Today we have the continuation of the

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<v Speaker 6>Germany trial in the matter of commwealth for us as

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<v Speaker 6>Lindsay Clancy. Miss Clancy is present. She is represented by

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<v Speaker 6>Attorney Kevin Ruddington. The Karmawealth is represented by Assistant District

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<v Speaker 6>Attorney Jennifer Sprague, an assistant district attorney she had.

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<v Speaker 2>At lacking hand.

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<v Speaker 7>Well, good morning, everyone finds out today a little nicer

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<v Speaker 7>weather for us.

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<v Speaker 4>Open was nice if you're coming in here today.

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<v Speaker 7>So what I'm going to do is ask you those

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<v Speaker 7>questions as I always do, and then I'll go over

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<v Speaker 7>a little bit the schedule and then we'll return to

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<v Speaker 7>the Cormwall's case. All right, So the first question, it's

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<v Speaker 7>probably got to memorized by now anyway, But let me

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<v Speaker 7>ask it, as any member of the jury red scene

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<v Speaker 7>heard or overheard anything from any source about any aspect

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<v Speaker 7>of this case, it would affect your ability to be

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<v Speaker 7>fair and impartial. Last question, is there any other matter,

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<v Speaker 7>a serious matter or concern bearing on your service as

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<v Speaker 7>adjur in this case that anybody needs to bring my

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<v Speaker 7>attention this time?

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<v Speaker 4>Again, thank you for following those instructions.

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<v Speaker 7>Now in regards to the schedule, if you remember, I

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<v Speaker 7>said yesterday that sometimes we have to adjust on the fly,

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<v Speaker 7>and that's going to be my call. Well, we may

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<v Speaker 7>have to do that a little bit, all right, So

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<v Speaker 7>today we're going to go through some cases up. We

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<v Speaker 7>may break a little bit early today, all right, and

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<v Speaker 7>now and then tomorrow, Uh, there is a matter I'm

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<v Speaker 7>gonna have to talk to counsel pretty much in that

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<v Speaker 7>in the afternoon. So the thought is tomorrow the plan

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<v Speaker 7>for you should be uh pretty much nine to one,

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<v Speaker 7>all right, and then the afternoon I'm gonna deal with

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<v Speaker 7>counsel in regards to some other issues that will I

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<v Speaker 7>believe I keep this case going, uh well on track,

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<v Speaker 7>and that's kind of where we are.

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<v Speaker 4>So I just kind of wanted to give you that update.

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<v Speaker 7>So that's, like I said, the best we could do

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<v Speaker 7>give you as much notice in regards to that.

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<v Speaker 4>But if we will, you will not. I say, wait,

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<v Speaker 4>you will not be sitting here tomorrow afternoon.

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<v Speaker 3>We may be uh and so.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh So with that we're gonna do is continue with

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<v Speaker 4>the Camwell's case.

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<v Speaker 3>We're gonna go back.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh come up, call you next witness.

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<v Speaker 3>Please thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>The Commonwealth would called Sina Garbier.

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<v Speaker 4>Good morning, good morning, sir.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Bucky, please thank you, good morning, good morning.

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<v Speaker 2>Could you please tell the jury your first and last name,

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<v Speaker 2>Christina Carpio and can you spell your last name for

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<v Speaker 2>the record, c.

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<v Speaker 8>Arps and Peter Io.

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<v Speaker 2>And what do you do for work?

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<v Speaker 8>I am a general surgeon trained in trauma and critical care.

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<v Speaker 2>And where do you currently work.

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<v Speaker 8>I'm hired by Brigham, but I work at Salshore Hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell us a little bit about your educational background.

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<v Speaker 8>I completed medical school and then went to general surgery

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<v Speaker 8>residency for five years at Columbia Presbyterian. I then did

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<v Speaker 8>two additional years of trauma and surgical critical care at Yale,

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<v Speaker 8>and then I've been working for Brigham and Selshare Hospital.

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<v Speaker 8>Since twenty sixteen, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Explain to us how it is that you work for

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<v Speaker 2>both Brigham and Selshare Hospital as a trauma surgeon.

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<v Speaker 8>Brigham has many physicians of all specialties who are at

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<v Speaker 8>Soultual Hospital. At one point, I think there was a

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<v Speaker 8>merger attempted between the two institutions. Either way, my salary

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<v Speaker 8>comes from Brigham, but I work only at Soushore Hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so that's kind of my follow up question. Generally,

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<v Speaker 2>your day to day work is at the Cetual Hospital

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<v Speaker 2>in Weymouth, that's correct? And what kind of hospital? What

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<v Speaker 2>level hospital? Trauma level hospital? Is the south Shore Hospital

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<v Speaker 2>a level two? And so if there are cases that

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<v Speaker 2>come in that need more acute care, are they generally

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<v Speaker 2>sent over to a hospital in Boston like the Brigham.

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<v Speaker 8>Yes, depending sometimes we get input from the subspecialists to

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<v Speaker 8>guide that decision.

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<v Speaker 2>And as far as your role as a trauma surgeon,

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<v Speaker 2>do you actually do surgeries at the Sosher Hospital.

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<v Speaker 8>Yes, that's correct.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth

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<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty three. Were you working at the Cecial

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<v Speaker 2>hospital that day?

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<v Speaker 9>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>And what was your role that day?

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<v Speaker 8>I was the on call surgeon. I was physically in

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<v Speaker 8>the hospital working.

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<v Speaker 2>At some point in the evening hours. Were you advised

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<v Speaker 2>that a patient was being transported to the Susher emergency

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<v Speaker 2>room as a level one Yes? And so when you

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<v Speaker 2>are advised of that level of trauma or your advice

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<v Speaker 2>of a critical patient coming into the emergency department, what

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<v Speaker 2>do you do?

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<v Speaker 8>There are guidelines for how quickly we have to be

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<v Speaker 8>present in the emergency room, because I'm also operating times,

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<v Speaker 8>I may be in the operating room when that notification happens.

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<v Speaker 2>So, in this particular case, when a patient, a female

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<v Speaker 2>patient by the name of Lindsay Clancy, was coming into

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<v Speaker 2>the emergency department, were you able to go down to

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<v Speaker 2>the emergency department as part of the assessment team?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>And who were you working with from the emergency department

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<v Speaker 2>in this.

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<v Speaker 8>Case, doctor Kelly McDonough.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, is that a common thing that you collaborate with

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<v Speaker 2>the emergency room doctors or nurses and technicians in a

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<v Speaker 2>situation like this?

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<v Speaker 10>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you have information that came in through the EMS

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<v Speaker 2>or the paramedics about the nature of the patient's condition.

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<v Speaker 8>I recall that we were told it was a fall

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<v Speaker 8>of unclear mechanism from a height of about twenty feet.

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<v Speaker 2>And where you advised that there was the possibility of

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<v Speaker 2>maybe neurological deficits or some serious final injury. Yes, And

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<v Speaker 2>as a result of that information, did that inform your

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<v Speaker 2>trauma assessment?

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<v Speaker 8>It was already activated as a level one, that's the

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<v Speaker 8>highest mechanism when there is concern for a height from

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<v Speaker 8>a certain of a fall from a height of a

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<v Speaker 8>certain level and with possible neurological injury.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're members of the neurology department also part of

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<v Speaker 2>that trauma assessment team.

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<v Speaker 8>No, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>As far as your assessment, did you go and physically

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<v Speaker 2>physically see the patient make observations?

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<v Speaker 10>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you observe her in the emergency department to be intubated.

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<v Speaker 8>Shortly after arrival? She was intubated, so.

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<v Speaker 2>That was done by the staff at suchral hospital to

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<v Speaker 2>your knowledge.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>And did you observe injuries to her neck and her wrists?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you evaluate those to determine whether they needed an

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<v Speaker 2>immediate surgical intervention?

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<v Speaker 8>Yes? Did they No, they were superficial.

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<v Speaker 2>And as far as additional tests to assess whether there's

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<v Speaker 2>any other surgical intervention that's needed, are you aware that

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<v Speaker 2>CT scans were ordered?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>And are you aware what areas of the body they

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<v Speaker 2>were ordered for.

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<v Speaker 8>We did pant scan, which means we scan the head,

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<v Speaker 8>the neck, the chest, and the abdomen pelvis.

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<v Speaker 2>As far as your physical observations of the patient, did

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<v Speaker 2>you observe any obvious injuries to her head area like abrasions, confusions, fractures.

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<v Speaker 8>There were lacerations to her neck, okay, But as far

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<v Speaker 8>as the rest of her head or around her like.

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<v Speaker 2>Face.

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<v Speaker 3>And so.

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<v Speaker 2>When those CT scans were done, were you able to

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<v Speaker 2>review the information that came from them, Yes? And as

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<v Speaker 2>far as those CT scans, you're aware that there was

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<v Speaker 2>a head CT scan or two head CT scans, one

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<v Speaker 2>with contrast durn one without and as were you aware

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<v Speaker 2>that the findings were there no definite acute intercranial findings

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<v Speaker 2>on the non contrast enhanced head CT, Yes, and there

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<v Speaker 2>were no significant findings on the contrast head CT correct.

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<v Speaker 8>The head CT with contrast was what we call an

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<v Speaker 8>Andrewgram head and neck. So it's ordered in two parts

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<v Speaker 8>and has two reports. At the time of the note

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<v Speaker 8>of the documentation that was performed, we had the report

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<v Speaker 8>back on the head section, but neck was not completed

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<v Speaker 8>at that time?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay? Was there eventually a completed andigrim of the neck

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<v Speaker 2>area at Selfsha Hospital?

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<v Speaker 8>The images were done, the report was completed. I don't

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<v Speaker 8>know the timeline of when the report came in compared

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<v Speaker 8>to when the patient was transferred.

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<v Speaker 2>So as far as your initial assessment in that trauma

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<v Speaker 2>assessment period or that wasn't information you had available to

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<v Speaker 2>you about the neck findings correct?

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<v Speaker 8>The angio neck findings correct.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's different from other CT scans on the cervical

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<v Speaker 2>spine and other areas of the spine. Is that fair

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<v Speaker 2>to say? Yes, that's correct. As the trauma surgeon evaluating

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<v Speaker 2>this case, did you identify that there were some serious

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<v Speaker 2>spinal injuries to the cervical and thoracic areas?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>Did any of those require you to intervene with surgical intervention?

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<v Speaker 6>No?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you recall making note that while in the emergency

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<v Speaker 2>department the patient became hypertensive and that she was identified

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<v Speaker 2>as being hypothermic to eighty two point one degrees?

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<v Speaker 8>I remember that she was hypothermic in when I reviewed

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<v Speaker 8>my documentation, she was The two numbers I saw on

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<v Speaker 8>my note were normal values of blood pressure, not high values,

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<v Speaker 8>not hyper tension.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, if I may approach you just with one of

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<v Speaker 2>the pages from the notes radio review, you can just

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<v Speaker 2>tell me if.

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<v Speaker 8>I, oh, no problem, which.

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<v Speaker 2>Towards the bottom, the last second to last paragraph.

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<v Speaker 8>Oh, she was sorry. She was hypertensive, which means low

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<v Speaker 8>blood pressure, different from hyper tension, which is high blood pressure.

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<v Speaker 8>Ok yeah, sorry, yeah, no, no, not at all.

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<v Speaker 2>But as as far as thermit that, you recall that

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<v Speaker 2>she was at a very low core body temperature.

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<v Speaker 8>Yes, that's correct.

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<v Speaker 2>And do you know what was done to raise her

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<v Speaker 2>body temperature.

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<v Speaker 8>We raised the temperature in the trauma room to be

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<v Speaker 8>able to raise her body temperature. That's usually our first

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<v Speaker 8>line of intervention.

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<v Speaker 2>And do you also have available to you at the

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<v Speaker 2>Selsha Hospital what's called the bear hugger or some sort

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<v Speaker 2>of blanket or wrappings that you can wrap around an

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<v Speaker 2>individual to try to get their body temperature up.

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<v Speaker 8>Yes, we have that.

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<v Speaker 2>And at some point her body temperature did come up

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<v Speaker 2>to ninety five point two degrees correct, yes, And based

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<v Speaker 2>on your observations of her, did anything change about those

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<v Speaker 2>lacerations that you observed once her body temperature was up

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<v Speaker 2>that warranted some surgical intervention of those injuries. No, what

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<v Speaker 2>was the ultimate recommendation for the care of this patient?

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<v Speaker 8>She had complex fractures in her spine at the thoracic level.

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<v Speaker 8>We conferred with our neurosurgery colleague who was on call,

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<v Speaker 8>who recommended transfer to a tertiary hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>And so where did this patient go? Brig them? Now,

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<v Speaker 2>you identified that your hospital is a level two trauma correct. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>after fully reviewing this patient, did you agree that this

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<v Speaker 2>was the level one trauma situation?

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<v Speaker 8>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>Are you able to do surgical intervention for these particular

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<v Speaker 2>injuries that you observed on this patient at Selsher Hospital?

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<v Speaker 8>The spinal injuries require input from our neurosurgical team.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was none available to you at the Cush Hospital.

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<v Speaker 8>We did contact the on call neurosurgeon because we are

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<v Speaker 8>a level two trauma center. They don't they are not

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<v Speaker 8>required to be physically present in the hospital, but they

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<v Speaker 8>were immediately available and they can remotely review images.

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<v Speaker 2>So I guess my question is why didn't you do

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<v Speaker 2>any surgeries regarding those injuries at Selsha Hospital? Why did

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<v Speaker 2>you recommend the care to tertiary hospital?

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<v Speaker 8>Flex level spinal injuries was deemed necessary for transfer by

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<v Speaker 8>our neuro surgery colleague.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, thank you.

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<v Speaker 3>Be reading to.

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<v Speaker 8>Good Morning.

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<v Speaker 3>Just a few questions.

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<v Speaker 5>So Self Shoe Hospital and you made reference to as

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<v Speaker 5>being a trauma hospital and the injuries suffered by Lindsay

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<v Speaker 5>were at level one.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that what it was? Yes, it's correct, that would

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<v Speaker 3>be the highest level, is that right?

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<v Speaker 8>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes?

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<v Speaker 3>What time?

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<v Speaker 5>If you remember what time approximately was she admitted to

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<v Speaker 5>Self Shoe Hospital.

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<v Speaker 8>The word admission means that she would have remained there

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<v Speaker 8>as a patient, so she was never formally admitted for

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<v Speaker 8>the time that she was brought in by EMS. I

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<v Speaker 8>would have to refer to that information from the record.

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<v Speaker 5>Do you have an idea as to how long she

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<v Speaker 5>was at your hospital?

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<v Speaker 8>Likely several hours, but again I would have to see

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<v Speaker 8>the specifics in the charts. There's documentation with the MS

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<v Speaker 8>for arrival and for when transfer to Brigham.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, And at some point it was decided that she

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<v Speaker 5>would be transferred to Boston, right, Yes, Brigham a woman's hospital. Yes,

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<v Speaker 5>And it was decided by someone that they weren't going

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<v Speaker 5>to put her in an ambulance for that transport, right.

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<v Speaker 8>I would have to look at the record for what

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<v Speaker 8>was the method of transfer to do.

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<v Speaker 5>You do you know how she was transferred by helicopter midflight?

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<v Speaker 8>I don't know, because MedFlight can also all MedFlight covers

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<v Speaker 8>two modes of transportation MedFlight ambulance and midflight helicopter.

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<v Speaker 5>Do you know that she was midflight helicopter to Boston?

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<v Speaker 8>I don't know that.

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<v Speaker 3>And the time that.

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<v Speaker 5>She left was after you all had provided the treatment

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<v Speaker 5>that you were able to provide to Lindsay as.

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<v Speaker 3>A patient, right, yes, and you reached the end of

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<v Speaker 3>eu rope.

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<v Speaker 5>She had to be transferred because she needed immediate high

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<v Speaker 5>level medical care, right.

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<v Speaker 8>She needed higher level of care, higher level.

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<v Speaker 3>Of care, and.

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<v Speaker 5>As a result, she was then brought to Brigham a

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<v Speaker 5>women's hospital. Now, the treatment that you had given would

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<v Speaker 5>include raising her apparently temperature, I guess, because she came

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<v Speaker 5>in at a low temperature, right, yes?

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<v Speaker 3>And did you use IV fluids?

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<v Speaker 8>I would have to check the record, but that is

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<v Speaker 8>a intervention.

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00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.440
<v Speaker 5>So your memory would be that you believe that you

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00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:37.600
<v Speaker 5>used IV fluids, But you'd have to have me get

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00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.600
<v Speaker 5>out of the box and check the record to ask

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00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:40.120
<v Speaker 5>that question.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, yes, correct, Okay, it.

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<v Speaker 5>Didn't really work out very well though, did it because

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00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.120
<v Speaker 5>you know that when she was brought to Boston, after

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<v Speaker 5>all of the time that she was treated at your hospital,

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<v Speaker 5>she was still core temperature of eighty two when she

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<v Speaker 5>hit Brigham and Woman's.

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<v Speaker 8>Loud if she knows, I did not look at the

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<v Speaker 8>medical record from another institution. I only reviewed my note

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<v Speaker 8>from Safshore Hospital.

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<v Speaker 5>Did you know that your patient had coded shortly after

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00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.919
<v Speaker 5>being brought to Brigham a women's hospital?

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00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:11.279
<v Speaker 3>Now?

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00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.519
<v Speaker 5>Did you know that she had to have massive transfusions

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<v Speaker 5>right after being brought to the hospital in Boston?

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00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:17.360
<v Speaker 10>No?

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00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.080
<v Speaker 5>Did anybody in sub Show hospital make a determination that

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00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:22.639
<v Speaker 5>she had lost a lot of blood?

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00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:28.399
<v Speaker 8>There was the EMS report did not share that there

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00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.919
<v Speaker 8>was a large volume of blood at the scene. She

325
00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.399
<v Speaker 8>was evaluated to part of her catskins also help us

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00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:36.799
<v Speaker 8>evaluate for intra abdominal blood loss.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, So when you raised the issue of the EMS,

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<v Speaker 5>that would be the ambulance, right, yes, and their report,

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00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:50.600
<v Speaker 5>their run sheet they prepare right, that's what you're talking about.

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<v Speaker 8>Right, there's verbal report from EMS when the patient is

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<v Speaker 8>brought in and also the run sheet of the details.

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00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:00.000
<v Speaker 5>Okay, And when the people from the EMS came in,

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<v Speaker 5>and did they speak to you about the verbal report.

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00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.039
<v Speaker 8>They speak, They addressed the entire room, so all the

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00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:09.799
<v Speaker 8>staff in the room is available to hear the details.

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00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:11.039
<v Speaker 3>And you're able to look at the run sheet.

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00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.000
<v Speaker 8>Correct, No, the run sheet is not always immediately available.

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00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.680
<v Speaker 5>So did the EMTs do your knowledge as a treating surgeon,

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00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:21.160
<v Speaker 5>physician and the trauma center tell you that there was

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00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:22.000
<v Speaker 5>blood loss?

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00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.880
<v Speaker 11>Not to my recollection, do you have did anyone tell

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00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.000
<v Speaker 11>you that at the scene where she was being treated,

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00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.960
<v Speaker 11>after coming out of the window and striking the ground,

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00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.599
<v Speaker 11>that there was blood in the snow and on the

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00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:34.640
<v Speaker 11>leaves and in the grass.

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00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.519
<v Speaker 8>I cannot recall if they commented on that?

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00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.640
<v Speaker 5>Is that important for you to know if there's blood

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00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:45.839
<v Speaker 5>loss on a patient, if there is a.

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00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:50.359
<v Speaker 8>Large volume of blood loss, Yes, the EMS will routinely

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00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.880
<v Speaker 8>comment on the patient being found.

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00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.000
<v Speaker 5>That's the EMS, THEAH the surgeon right, that is correct, sir?

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00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:57.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah.

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00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.640
<v Speaker 5>And one of the things would be blood pressure, right,

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00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.480
<v Speaker 5>what the person's blood pressure is?

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00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Correct?

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00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:03.279
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

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00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:06.720
<v Speaker 5>And she had if I understand your testimony correctly, low

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00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:07.440
<v Speaker 5>blood pressure.

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00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.680
<v Speaker 8>She initially when she came in are the note has

360
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.920
<v Speaker 8>a normal blood pressure and then after intubation her blood

361
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:14.680
<v Speaker 8>pressure dropped.

362
00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:18.960
<v Speaker 5>Okay, do you know what caused the blood pressure to drop.

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00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.720
<v Speaker 8>There were several factors at play, because we discovered from

364
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.200
<v Speaker 8>her cat scan she had an injury to her spinal

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00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.920
<v Speaker 8>cord in the thoracic region that very commonly causes issues

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00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:30.400
<v Speaker 8>with maintaining your blood pressure.

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00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.440
<v Speaker 5>And do you know what her blood pressure was? I mean,

368
00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:34.519
<v Speaker 5>if you don't, that's fine.

369
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:35.200
<v Speaker 3>You need the.

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00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.480
<v Speaker 8>Records blood pressure. At which point, at.

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00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:40.039
<v Speaker 5>The point I'm asking you about, when you noted that

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00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.759
<v Speaker 5>she had low bred blood pressure?

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00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.160
<v Speaker 8>No, I don't remember how hypotensive she was.

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00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.440
<v Speaker 5>Now, as far as being hypotensive, did you know that

375
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.359
<v Speaker 5>when she finally hit the Boston hospital that she had

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00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:52.240
<v Speaker 5>massive transfusion of blood?

377
00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:57.079
<v Speaker 8>I thought you, I thought, I asked? An answered, well

378
00:18:57.160 --> 00:18:59.880
<v Speaker 8>did you you asked me before? And I answered that no,

379
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:00.880
<v Speaker 8>I did not know that.

380
00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:05.400
<v Speaker 5>Okay, So how about did you know that they introduced

381
00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:10.240
<v Speaker 5>plural tubes in both sides of her chest and removed

382
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.480
<v Speaker 5>many many see seeds of blood from both the right

383
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:15.960
<v Speaker 5>and left plural cavity.

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00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.160
<v Speaker 2>Object to the one question, the witness, as already indicated,

385
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:20.599
<v Speaker 2>she hasn't reviewed those records.

386
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.519
<v Speaker 12>She's not aware of what happened at go through each

387
00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:24.400
<v Speaker 12>and every injury is.

388
00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.680
<v Speaker 8>If she gets to that, No I did. I do

389
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:32.480
<v Speaker 8>not know that about the patient when she was not at.

390
00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.200
<v Speaker 5>All ther area and the left all the area of

391
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:39.279
<v Speaker 5>the upper extremities right and left that there were a

392
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:42.759
<v Speaker 5>deep cut noted in the skin.

393
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.440
<v Speaker 8>The notes about her wrist injuries said that it was

394
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:49.359
<v Speaker 8>through the skin with exposed fat, but there was no

395
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.240
<v Speaker 8>exposed muscle or tendon.

396
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.400
<v Speaker 5>Are cuts on both ouns. You wouldn't agree with that, No,

397
00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.000
<v Speaker 5>I would not. And again you're not aware of anything

398
00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:00.759
<v Speaker 5>that was diagnosed in Brigham a Woman's hospital.

399
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:01.599
<v Speaker 8>Right, That is correct.

400
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:08.359
<v Speaker 5>As far as the injury to her spine, what kind

401
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:09.039
<v Speaker 5>of injury was it?

402
00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:10.160
<v Speaker 3>Do you remember it?

403
00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.279
<v Speaker 8>It was at thoracic level T five, T.

404
00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.559
<v Speaker 5>Six, And what type of injury was there to the spine?

405
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:21.839
<v Speaker 8>The report that the stability of the pattern of it

406
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.279
<v Speaker 8>indicated that there was instability of the spine, which is

407
00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:26.799
<v Speaker 8>why we conferred with the neurosurgeon, right.

408
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:28.839
<v Speaker 3>And nothing much came out of that either.

409
00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.960
<v Speaker 5>As far as conferring with the neurosurgeon, right, I'm not sure.

410
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.319
<v Speaker 8>What you mean by nothing much came.

411
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.119
<v Speaker 3>Over You didn't show up to come to the hospital, right,

412
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:37.640
<v Speaker 3>we did.

413
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.440
<v Speaker 8>I'm not sure, okay.

414
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.960
<v Speaker 3>The spine was transacted at T five T six. Right.

415
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:47.680
<v Speaker 8>The person the team, or rather the input you would

416
00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:49.839
<v Speaker 8>need for further commentary on the spine would be a

417
00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:52.440
<v Speaker 8>neurosurgery team. I am not a neurosurgeon. I am a

418
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:53.200
<v Speaker 8>general surgeon.

419
00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.039
<v Speaker 5>So you're not aware of the transaction. You know what

420
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:57.359
<v Speaker 5>a transaction is, don't you?

421
00:20:58.720 --> 00:20:59.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes? Okay?

422
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.000
<v Speaker 5>And on your cat scans or on your pictures that

423
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:05.559
<v Speaker 5>you were describing for the jury with no problem for

424
00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.839
<v Speaker 5>the DA, did you notice that the spine was transacted

425
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:09.680
<v Speaker 5>at T five.

426
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:13.039
<v Speaker 8>And T six there was compression of the bones. I

427
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.480
<v Speaker 8>would have to specifically look at the report to see

428
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:16.720
<v Speaker 8>if it used the word transaction.

429
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:18.920
<v Speaker 3>Okay. How about a thyroid? Did you notice anything about

430
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:19.480
<v Speaker 3>a thyroid?

431
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.880
<v Speaker 8>It said that there was concern there was edema at

432
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.640
<v Speaker 8>the thyroid, concern for a contusion or laceration, and that's.

433
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:27.480
<v Speaker 3>The extent of your nose.

434
00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.200
<v Speaker 5>You don't know whether or not the thyroid was destroyed

435
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:32.359
<v Speaker 5>or anything, do you correct?

436
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:32.920
<v Speaker 3>Okay?

437
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.680
<v Speaker 5>How about her ribs? You noticed that some of her

438
00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:36.480
<v Speaker 5>ribs were broken.

439
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.440
<v Speaker 8>I would have to look at her cat scan report again.

440
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:42.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so, coming in here today, you're not aware whether

441
00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.599
<v Speaker 5>or not she had broken ribs because you haven't been

442
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:47.000
<v Speaker 5>able to look at your records.

443
00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:47.240
<v Speaker 3>Is that right?

444
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:50.680
<v Speaker 8>I did review my records. I would have to specifically

445
00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:53.720
<v Speaker 8>state into the record what was the injuries. I would

446
00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.960
<v Speaker 8>be happy to read from my note, which I know

447
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:57.119
<v Speaker 8>is part of the evidence.

448
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:57.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

449
00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:00.960
<v Speaker 5>So who is it that decide is that a patient

450
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:04.359
<v Speaker 5>is going to be med flighted into Boston from South

451
00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:05.240
<v Speaker 5>Shoa Hospital.

452
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:09.599
<v Speaker 8>Some of it depends on the level of injury and

453
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:13.559
<v Speaker 8>the transport teams that are available at that moment. Sometimes

454
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:18.119
<v Speaker 8>MedFlight ambulance is faster, sometimes MedFlight is available. It all

455
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.880
<v Speaker 8>depends on the available resources at the time of the event.

456
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:23.519
<v Speaker 5>So what I asked you is who decides whether or

457
00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:25.640
<v Speaker 5>not somebody is getting med flighted out of South.

458
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:29.359
<v Speaker 8>Shoa Hospital and the in from the subspecialist?

459
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:31.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I didn't know. She was still talking.

460
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:35.200
<v Speaker 8>Go ahead, I finished, sir.

461
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.960
<v Speaker 5>All right, So you, as the trauma surgeon, would you

462
00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:41.880
<v Speaker 5>agree that you had a little bit to do with

463
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:44.559
<v Speaker 5>whether or not she was in dire straits and had

464
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:45.799
<v Speaker 5>to be med flight at to Boston.

465
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.920
<v Speaker 8>I would be part of the decision to transfer her.

466
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:51.759
<v Speaker 5>Do you remember that decision being made and do you

467
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:54.640
<v Speaker 5>remember the meeting that you had to make that decision.

468
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:59.240
<v Speaker 8>I remember conferring with the emergency room team that neurosurgery

469
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:01.319
<v Speaker 8>had said she needed transfer and.

470
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:02.559
<v Speaker 3>It was by MedFlight, right.

471
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:05.119
<v Speaker 5>I don't know whether it's an ambulance or a helicopter,

472
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.440
<v Speaker 5>but you know it was MedFlight.

473
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:07.720
<v Speaker 8>It should have been MedFlight.

474
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.839
<v Speaker 3>Yes, okay, call.

475
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:12.799
<v Speaker 12>Doctor.

476
00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:15.599
<v Speaker 2>It was very clear to you that this patient has

477
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:17.960
<v Speaker 2>was suffering from multiple injuries.

478
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.680
<v Speaker 8>Yes, And is it.

479
00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:22.960
<v Speaker 2>The policy of the Sutral hospital to make sure a

480
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.200
<v Speaker 2>patient is stable before they're transported.

481
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.799
<v Speaker 8>Yes, that's correct. Yes, correct. We would not put an

482
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.599
<v Speaker 8>unstable patient in any mode of transport to another facility.

483
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:34.960
<v Speaker 2>So when the review of all the CT scans, the

484
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:38.480
<v Speaker 2>DOBLINO scans, the head scans, the chest tax rays, all

485
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:40.720
<v Speaker 2>of the things that were reviewed as identified that she

486
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:41.720
<v Speaker 2>was stable enough.

487
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:47.000
<v Speaker 13>To be transfer because they think she's I'll love this question.

488
00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Sorry what was your answer?

489
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:50.839
<v Speaker 8>Could you repeat the question please?

490
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:55.160
<v Speaker 2>So, after reviewing all of the imaging of the CT scans,

491
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:59.000
<v Speaker 2>the chess tax reas, everything, you and your team were

492
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.279
<v Speaker 2>comfortable that she was staying well enough to be transported

493
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.279
<v Speaker 2>to another hospital. Correct, Yes, And I think your testimony

494
00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:09.079
<v Speaker 2>was that a large contributor to the decision of transport

495
00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:12.000
<v Speaker 2>was the information that you got on the nurse surgery t.

496
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:16.480
<v Speaker 4>Yes, thank you nothing for anything on that springthon. Thank

497
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:17.480
<v Speaker 4>you doctor, Thank you.

498
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:17.720
<v Speaker 8>Sir.

499
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:23.119
<v Speaker 2>Hi come, weal come, would call Joseph Rabbit to the stand.

500
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:31.400
<v Speaker 4>Please, good morning, sir, that's it's a fun.

501
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:33.480
<v Speaker 2>One with the.

502
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:35.880
<v Speaker 10>Yeah.

503
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.759
<v Speaker 2>Good morning, sir, Good morning. Can you please tell the

504
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:40.519
<v Speaker 2>jury your first and.

505
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:43.559
<v Speaker 14>Last name, the head of Joseph Rabbit. Are a BBI

506
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:44.079
<v Speaker 14>T T.

507
00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.119
<v Speaker 15>And where do you work the Massachusetts State Police? Currently

508
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:49.359
<v Speaker 15>assigned to the Cybercrime Unit.

509
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:51.839
<v Speaker 2>How long have you been with the State Police.

510
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.240
<v Speaker 14>Since March of twenty twelve, And.

511
00:24:57.240 --> 00:24:59.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to draw your attention back to January of

512
00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:01.240
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty three. What was your assignment then?

513
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:03.759
<v Speaker 15>I was a trooper assigned to the State Police Detective

514
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:04.880
<v Speaker 15>Unit for Plymouth County.

515
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>And do you recall how long you were a detective

516
00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:11.920
<v Speaker 2>or trooper assigned to the detective unit in Plymouth County.

517
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.119
<v Speaker 15>Approximately from February of twenty seventeen to.

518
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.359
<v Speaker 14>September of twenty twenty four.

519
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth

520
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:24.799
<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty three. Do you recall being involved in

521
00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:28.200
<v Speaker 2>an investigation in the town of Duxbury that day. I

522
00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:30.519
<v Speaker 2>do yes, And do you recall where you went in

523
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.640
<v Speaker 2>Duxbury or or where the investigation was unfolding out of

524
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:35.559
<v Speaker 2>at first went.

525
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.680
<v Speaker 14>To Jordan Hospital or Beth Israel deacon.

526
00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Plymouth, Okay, And so you didn't initially go to forty

527
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:44.400
<v Speaker 2>seven Summer Street correct.

528
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:44.799
<v Speaker 3>Correct?

529
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:47.799
<v Speaker 2>Fair to say you weren't the case officer in this case,

530
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:54.000
<v Speaker 2>that is correct, and your experience working with the detective

531
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:58.039
<v Speaker 2>unit fair to say when an investigation, our death investigation

532
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:01.759
<v Speaker 2>is ongoing, kind of it's all hands on deck and

533
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:04.039
<v Speaker 2>everyone's kind of directed to do different things.

534
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 14>Correct, That is correct.

535
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:07.839
<v Speaker 2>And so in this circumstance, you were asked to go

536
00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:11.359
<v Speaker 2>to the Beth Israel Deaconess or the old Jordan Hospital

537
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:12.359
<v Speaker 2>here in Plymouth correct.

538
00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:12.920
<v Speaker 14>Correct?

539
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Why did you get asked to go there?

540
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.359
<v Speaker 14>Because three children have been transported there.

541
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.440
<v Speaker 2>And so were you assigned to just go and check

542
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.079
<v Speaker 2>in on the status of the kids and what was

543
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:24.480
<v Speaker 2>going on.

544
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.240
<v Speaker 15>At that hospital, check it on the status and have

545
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:31.359
<v Speaker 15>them any potential victims documented by crime scene services.

546
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.759
<v Speaker 2>And so while you were at the hospital, you did

547
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.680
<v Speaker 2>have the occasion to speak with Patrick Clancy correct.

548
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:38.440
<v Speaker 3>I did yes.

549
00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:42.960
<v Speaker 2>And after you left the hospital, did you go to

550
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:44.680
<v Speaker 2>forty seven Summer Street in Duxbury.

551
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:45.599
<v Speaker 10>I did yes.

552
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.440
<v Speaker 2>And are you aware that other members in your unit

553
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:51.119
<v Speaker 2>had obtain a search weren't for that home?

554
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:52.920
<v Speaker 3>I was yes.

555
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.559
<v Speaker 2>And so when you arrived at forty seven Summer Street,

556
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:58.160
<v Speaker 2>were you there to assist with the execution of the warrant?

557
00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:03.200
<v Speaker 2>I was yes, part of the hornt execution. Is it

558
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:06.680
<v Speaker 2>fair to say that everyone's kind of asked to look

559
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:12.440
<v Speaker 2>at particular areas and search for potential evidence evidence related

560
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:13.119
<v Speaker 2>to the offence.

561
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:14.200
<v Speaker 3>That is correct?

562
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.359
<v Speaker 2>Fair to say this search warrant was executed shortly after

563
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:19.359
<v Speaker 2>the incident occurred.

564
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:20.200
<v Speaker 14>Fair to say?

565
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:20.519
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

566
00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:24.039
<v Speaker 2>And so did you and other investigators have limited information

567
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:24.960
<v Speaker 2>about what had happened?

568
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

569
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:33.759
<v Speaker 2>At the home you were you in that in the

570
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.680
<v Speaker 2>kitchen area assisting with the search?

571
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:37.759
<v Speaker 3>I was yes.

572
00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:47.240
<v Speaker 2>And you show you what's probity been marked exhibit. You

573
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:53.119
<v Speaker 2>could look at the screen. Are you familiar with that

574
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:55.160
<v Speaker 2>photograph or what's depicted in that photograph?

575
00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:56.039
<v Speaker 14>I am yes.

576
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:58.599
<v Speaker 2>And is that the kitchen area at forty seven Summer Street.

577
00:27:58.839 --> 00:27:59.440
<v Speaker 14>It is, yes.

578
00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:03.000
<v Speaker 2>There in January, well, the early morning hours, I would say,

579
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:06.519
<v Speaker 2>January twenty fifth, I was yes, And so fair to

580
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.920
<v Speaker 2>say you made observation till you're there right?

581
00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:09.720
<v Speaker 14>Correct?

582
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.640
<v Speaker 2>And what was an observation that you noted to other

583
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.839
<v Speaker 2>investigators in that kitchen area on.

584
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:17.880
<v Speaker 14>The island ACVs bag.

585
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to show you Exhibit number forty. That's

586
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:25.680
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a closer view of the bag. Correct.

587
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:26.640
<v Speaker 3>That is correct?

588
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:27.480
<v Speaker 2>And how about this.

589
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:30.240
<v Speaker 12>Larger paper bag. Did you observe that as well?

590
00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Did?

591
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:34.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes? And going to just approach you with what's been

592
00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:40.079
<v Speaker 2>already marked as Exhibit thirty one. Was that also familiar

593
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:40.359
<v Speaker 2>to you?

594
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:42.200
<v Speaker 4>It is?

595
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

596
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:44.359
<v Speaker 2>Is that receipt that is that bad?

597
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:45.079
<v Speaker 14>Correct?

598
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.480
<v Speaker 2>And fair to say all of these things the CBS bag,

599
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the receipt were noted, and certain things were collected, including

600
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:00.200
<v Speaker 2>the receipt Exhibit thirty one and the CVS bag correct call.

601
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:01.839
<v Speaker 2>What was inside the CBS bag.

602
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 14>Was a bottle of pedal x.

603
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:14.880
<v Speaker 2>MH. You also observed other areas of the kitchen correct.

604
00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:15.480
<v Speaker 3>Correct.

605
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.640
<v Speaker 2>And so there was a particular cabinet in the kitchen.

606
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:21.559
<v Speaker 2>Did you open a cabinet and discover something that stood

607
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:21.960
<v Speaker 2>out to you?

608
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:22.920
<v Speaker 14>I did, yes?

609
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.799
<v Speaker 2>And what was what was the cabinet? And what stood out.

610
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.680
<v Speaker 15>An upper kitchen cabinet with medication bottles.

611
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:33.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, and fair to say that was that was pointed

612
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:34.559
<v Speaker 2>out and documented as well?

613
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.400
<v Speaker 14>It was yes, I may.

614
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:43.039
<v Speaker 2>Approach first photograph. Is that familiar to you?

615
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:43.880
<v Speaker 14>It is yes?

616
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:48.160
<v Speaker 2>And that's the cabinet that you opened and saw the

617
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:49.079
<v Speaker 2>items inside.

618
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:49.720
<v Speaker 14>Correct.

619
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.920
<v Speaker 2>And I'm just show you a second photograph And is

620
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.240
<v Speaker 2>that fair to say just a closer of those top shelves.

621
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:57.200
<v Speaker 14>It is yes?

622
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:00.640
<v Speaker 2>And what particularly stood out to you about medication in

623
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:01.799
<v Speaker 2>the cabinet.

624
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:07.039
<v Speaker 12>The spices or the generic medications or something else.

625
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:12.839
<v Speaker 14>The prescription medications it may be admitted.

626
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:23.480
<v Speaker 2>So just showing you now on the screen one and

627
00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:25.920
<v Speaker 2>that's just the cabinet open and there's looks to be

628
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:28.359
<v Speaker 2>like air frier the below it correct?

629
00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:29.000
<v Speaker 3>Correct?

630
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.559
<v Speaker 2>And now showing you one fifty three, which has those

631
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:35.839
<v Speaker 2>top two shelves, and it's the very top shelf has

632
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the prescription bottles correct?

633
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:37.920
<v Speaker 14>Correct?

634
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.599
<v Speaker 2>What did you do with the prescription bottles?

635
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:45.599
<v Speaker 15>I placed them on the islands and notified other members

636
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:49.559
<v Speaker 15>of that we're searching so they could be photographed by

637
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:50.640
<v Speaker 15>crime scene services.

638
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:58.480
<v Speaker 2>So I'm just going to show you another photograph.

639
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.839
<v Speaker 12>Is that fair as to replacing those bottles on.

640
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:06.039
<v Speaker 14>The island.

641
00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:07.000
<v Speaker 4>May be admitted.

642
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:09.440
<v Speaker 2>And how many bottles were there?

643
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:10.279
<v Speaker 10>There were four?

644
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:16.039
<v Speaker 2>Or she would look bad. Take a look it's in

645
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:18.920
<v Speaker 2>the bag. Do those appear to be the four bottles

646
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:20.160
<v Speaker 2>that were in the cabinet?

647
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:29.880
<v Speaker 11>Yes, they may be admitted, thank you.

648
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Now, other than pulling these for the cabinet, latting them

649
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.359
<v Speaker 2>up on the counter and asking crimes and to photograph them,

650
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:42.599
<v Speaker 2>did you do anything further with these fills as far

651
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:44.640
<v Speaker 2>as inventoring them or examining them?

652
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:45.599
<v Speaker 14>I did not know.

653
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:51.640
<v Speaker 2>And when the kirch Warren is executed, for to say,

654
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:56.240
<v Speaker 2>there's usually an evidence officer who kind of documents everything

655
00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:59.599
<v Speaker 2>and collects everything to take back either to the crime

656
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.920
<v Speaker 2>lab or to the State Police office.

657
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:04.640
<v Speaker 14>That's correct.

658
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:10.079
<v Speaker 2>Now. In addition to assisting with the execution of the

659
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:14.480
<v Speaker 2>warrant on this on January twenty the early morning hours

660
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.960
<v Speaker 2>of January twenty fifth, were you asked to do something

661
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:20.640
<v Speaker 2>else on this case on February sixth of twenty twenty three,

662
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I was yes. And on that day did somebody come

663
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:28.720
<v Speaker 2>into the State Police office at the District Attorney's office

664
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.920
<v Speaker 2>with some information or evidence? They did?

665
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:32.279
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

666
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:33.599
<v Speaker 2>Who was that that came.

667
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:35.440
<v Speaker 14>In mister Patrick Clancy.

668
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.400
<v Speaker 2>And was he with an attorney somebody by the name

669
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.039
<v Speaker 2>of David Meyer. Yes, And what did they bring to

670
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:42.279
<v Speaker 2>the state police?

671
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:43.599
<v Speaker 14>Bottles of medication?

672
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:46.440
<v Speaker 2>How was it transported to the state Police or how

673
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:47.359
<v Speaker 2>did you receive.

674
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:48.440
<v Speaker 14>It in ACBS bag.

675
00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:51.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna show you.

676
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:56.200
<v Speaker 12>A photograph familiar to you.

677
00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:59.680
<v Speaker 2>It is, yes, and this fairs to the bag that

678
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:00.200
<v Speaker 2>was pro.

679
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it may.

680
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Be admitted when mister Clancy an attorney Meyer brought that

681
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:12.519
<v Speaker 2>bag in. Did you do something or ask somebody to

682
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:15.759
<v Speaker 2>do something to memorialize what they were bringing to you?

683
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:16.359
<v Speaker 9>Yes?

684
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:20.519
<v Speaker 15>I asked crime Scene Services to digitally document them.

685
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:22.799
<v Speaker 2>And so the photograph I just showed you of the

686
00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:25.240
<v Speaker 2>bag that was done by a trooper from crime Scene

687
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Services that came to the office.

688
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:26.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

689
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:29.160
<v Speaker 14>To recall who that was, I believe it was Trooper

690
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:30.240
<v Speaker 14>Roast Offers.

691
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:34.519
<v Speaker 2>And fair to say that with the crime scene trooper present,

692
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:36.759
<v Speaker 2>you also examined the other contents in the bag.

693
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:38.000
<v Speaker 8>Correct, That is correct?

694
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:47.599
<v Speaker 2>And there was a blank greeting card, some paperwork and

695
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:51.640
<v Speaker 2>a kind of insert for CBS. Is that back?

696
00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:54.279
<v Speaker 14>Correct?

697
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:57.039
<v Speaker 2>Is that the other items that were in the bag

698
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:03.440
<v Speaker 2>other than the medications, that is correct.

699
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:03.400
<v Speaker 4>That may be admitted.

700
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:08.159
<v Speaker 2>And again as to the medications in that bag, when

701
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.679
<v Speaker 2>you saw that there were prescription bottles there, did you

702
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:14.039
<v Speaker 2>present them so that they could all be documented?

703
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:14.719
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

704
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.320
<v Speaker 2>And did you then inventory or examine each of the bottles?

705
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:20.280
<v Speaker 14>I did yes.

706
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:22.559
<v Speaker 2>And is it fair to say that Patrick Clancy had

707
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:25.440
<v Speaker 2>indicated that the bag was in his truck and that

708
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:28.840
<v Speaker 2>he was bringing them to the state Police as a

709
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:31.159
<v Speaker 2>result of everything that occurred on January twenty fourth.

710
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.320
<v Speaker 15>I can't recall where he said he got them from,

711
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.000
<v Speaker 15>but that is why he was bringing them in.

712
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:37.639
<v Speaker 8>And I'm just going to approach.

713
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:40.119
<v Speaker 2>With the exhibit number two.

714
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:43.800
<v Speaker 12>You want it, take a look at that before we

715
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:44.639
<v Speaker 12>go through it.

716
00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Is that appear to represent all the bottles that were

717
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:50.719
<v Speaker 2>provided to you on February sixth?

718
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:54.559
<v Speaker 3>It doesn't.

719
00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:59.440
<v Speaker 2>And that's nine correct. Correct now, just as far as

720
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:06.079
<v Speaker 2>each bottle one moment. So when you are tasked to

721
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:10.360
<v Speaker 2>tracking your inventory, particular items like this.

722
00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:12.679
<v Speaker 15>That come in, what do you do count out how

723
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.599
<v Speaker 15>many capsules or tablets are in there? The date that

724
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:18.599
<v Speaker 15>would not it was it was filled in the amount

725
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.119
<v Speaker 15>left in the bottle and the amounts that it said

726
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:24.199
<v Speaker 15>should have been there and when filled.

727
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:28.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, And so referring first to this bottle that's labeled

728
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:33.920
<v Speaker 2>le Razapam one milligram, fair to say it says date

729
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:39.480
<v Speaker 2>filled two correct, correct, And it says that originally it

730
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:43.039
<v Speaker 2>was filled with thirty quantity thirty correct. And you counted

731
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.199
<v Speaker 2>what was left in this particular bottle, and there were

732
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:47.360
<v Speaker 2>only fourteen hills.

733
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:48.599
<v Speaker 14>Left in that bottle correct correct.

734
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:57.400
<v Speaker 2>And so the next one, the bottle labeled Curtulan brand

735
00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:01.920
<v Speaker 2>name Zilloloft, filled on nine to fifteen, twenty two, quantity thirty.

736
00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Did you count how many pills were left in this bottle?

737
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.639
<v Speaker 2>I did, and fair to say there's twenty three left

738
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:14.719
<v Speaker 2>corst no use sperne. There were, in fact two bottles

739
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:19.360
<v Speaker 2>labeled U sperone correct, that is correct, and one of

740
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>them with a date of ten twenty six, twenty two,

741
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.559
<v Speaker 2>date filled quantity thirty. You counted how many pills are

742
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:26.199
<v Speaker 2>in this bottle?

743
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:27.440
<v Speaker 3>Right?

744
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:27.920
<v Speaker 14>Correct?

745
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.039
<v Speaker 2>And there were twenty eight pills left in this bottle,

746
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:38.280
<v Speaker 2>that is correct. Hydroxene filled on ten twenty six, twenty

747
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:41.719
<v Speaker 2>two quantity thirty. You counted how many pills were in

748
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:44.000
<v Speaker 2>this that is and fair to say there were twenty

749
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:45.199
<v Speaker 2>seven left in that bottle?

750
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:45.880
<v Speaker 14>Correct.

751
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:53.599
<v Speaker 2>Klon is a pan filled on eleven twenty five, twenty two,

752
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:57.239
<v Speaker 2>with fourteen pills in the prescription. You counted how many

753
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:58.000
<v Speaker 2>were in this bottle?

754
00:36:58.159 --> 00:36:58.519
<v Speaker 3>Correct?

755
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.679
<v Speaker 2>And there were actually a eleven and.

756
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:02.079
<v Speaker 14>A half christ that is correct?

757
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Blocks eighteen filled on eleven twenty one, twenty two, with

758
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:13.920
<v Speaker 2>fifty six in the prescription. You counted how many were

759
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:17.079
<v Speaker 2>left in this bottle? I did guess and there were

760
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:19.920
<v Speaker 2>twenty or excuse me, forty three correct?

761
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:21.960
<v Speaker 12>Correct?

762
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.800
<v Speaker 2>The second bottle of lerazapam that was point five milligrams,

763
00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:29.599
<v Speaker 2>filled on eleven two, twenty two, with it says forty

764
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:33.199
<v Speaker 2>on the bottle right correct? You counted what was left

765
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.719
<v Speaker 2>in this bottle and it was eighteen and a half tablets,

766
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:39.199
<v Speaker 2>that is correct. And the second bottle of busperone filled

767
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:42.440
<v Speaker 2>on eleven nine, twenty two, quantity thirty There were actually

768
00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:44.000
<v Speaker 2>thirty in this bottle? Is aft to say?

769
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:44.679
<v Speaker 3>Correct? Guess?

770
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:49.559
<v Speaker 2>And Trazodone filled on November sixteenth, twenty twenty two, with

771
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:53.119
<v Speaker 2>a prescription for thirty. You counted that there were twenty

772
00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:55.880
<v Speaker 2>two point five pills left in this bottle? Is that correct?

773
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:56.320
<v Speaker 3>Correct?

774
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:59.760
<v Speaker 2>And then once you identified and counted each and ever

775
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:04.039
<v Speaker 2>you want to the pills in these bottles you handed

776
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:05.719
<v Speaker 2>this in for evidence, that is correct.

777
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:11.800
<v Speaker 5>Take it all, right, cross Council, and the pills that

778
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:13.960
<v Speaker 5>you just counted or you went through the bottles that

779
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:14.639
<v Speaker 5>you seized.

780
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:16.960
<v Speaker 3>First of all, there's no.

781
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:20.639
<v Speaker 5>Doubt that you guys were executing a search warrant, right,

782
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:24.840
<v Speaker 5>that is correct. And to have a search warrant, you

783
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:29.039
<v Speaker 5>have to have a reason to seize something from a

784
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:33.280
<v Speaker 5>citizen's person or their home right, that is correct, if

785
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:36.039
<v Speaker 5>their probable cause is what it's called, right, and then

786
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:39.320
<v Speaker 5>you have to itemize what you want to have the

787
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:44.119
<v Speaker 5>authority to seize, right, coruct. So I take it that

788
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:49.000
<v Speaker 5>when you people went in executing the search warrant that

789
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:53.840
<v Speaker 5>you had authority to seize the medical pill bottles that

790
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:57.119
<v Speaker 5>we've just gone through, corut and that was set forth

791
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.079
<v Speaker 5>right in the where it says you're therefore commanded. One

792
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.159
<v Speaker 5>of the things that you're entitled to seize would be

793
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:05.400
<v Speaker 5>prescription medication, right correct, And that would be on January

794
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:09.079
<v Speaker 5>twenty five or thirteen, that this affidavit was submitted to

795
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:14.400
<v Speaker 5>the clerk in this court, right correct, at three o'clock

796
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:14.920
<v Speaker 5>in the morning.

797
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:17.599
<v Speaker 3>Warrant was issued on January twenty five.

798
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.800
<v Speaker 14>Right, I didn't write it, but that sounds about right.

799
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:21.840
<v Speaker 14>That sounds right, all.

800
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.880
<v Speaker 5>Right, But do you recall what time you went into

801
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:26.519
<v Speaker 5>the home plancy home to execute the warrant?

802
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:27.719
<v Speaker 3>To serve the warrant.

803
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:29.400
<v Speaker 14>Is very more early morning?

804
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:32.360
<v Speaker 5>I was, yes, all right, so early morning hours. You're

805
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:36.039
<v Speaker 5>in there to look for in among other things like

806
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:41.679
<v Speaker 5>computers and things, sees any medication bottles that you saw, correct,

807
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:44.920
<v Speaker 5>So it's not that it's a random search that some

808
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:47.320
<v Speaker 5>police officer just happened to grab bottles.

809
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:48.880
<v Speaker 3>That is she saw.

810
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:54.639
<v Speaker 5>There was a specific intent to seize prescription medication.

811
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:55.199
<v Speaker 4>Correct.

812
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:56.360
<v Speaker 14>It was on the affidavit.

813
00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:59.800
<v Speaker 5>Yes, And that's what you all did when you went

814
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.639
<v Speaker 5>in to try to execute the warrant and seize the items.

815
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:02.920
<v Speaker 4>Right.

816
00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:05.320
<v Speaker 15>I mean I for myself, what I found in the

817
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:06.280
<v Speaker 15>kitchen is what I sees.

818
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:06.639
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

819
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:09.280
<v Speaker 5>So were you the officer in trage of the warrant execution?

820
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:13.119
<v Speaker 3>I was not numb. Okay. Did you leave the kitchen

821
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:13.880
<v Speaker 3>and go elsewhere?

822
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:14.639
<v Speaker 16>I did?

823
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:16.039
<v Speaker 3>Yes? And where did you go?

824
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:20.119
<v Speaker 15>I believe I went to one of the children's bedrooms

825
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:23.599
<v Speaker 15>because it was somebody for me. There was a nuts

826
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:24.519
<v Speaker 15>camera in there a.

827
00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:27.679
<v Speaker 3>Camera, Yes, okay, did you go anywhere else? If you

828
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:30.440
<v Speaker 3>recall I thought that I can recall. Did you go

829
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:31.599
<v Speaker 3>in the master bedroom.

830
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:32.840
<v Speaker 14>I can't recall if I did.

831
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:36.159
<v Speaker 5>Do you recall whether or not anybody in your presence

832
00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:41.320
<v Speaker 5>or anybody went into a drawer a nightstand and looked

833
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:43.599
<v Speaker 5>in the drawer and saw an apple, watch, a bunch

834
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:45.480
<v Speaker 5>of pills.

835
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:55.000
<v Speaker 3>Things that nature. I can't.

836
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:57.159
<v Speaker 14>I don't know if anybody did or not.

837
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:02.199
<v Speaker 3>Description bottles that were seized.

838
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.559
<v Speaker 14>If you ever seen these, I have not known.

839
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:08.519
<v Speaker 5>So you went through the pill when the bibles through

840
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:11.719
<v Speaker 5>the district attorneys, and you did that when you did

841
00:41:11.719 --> 00:41:13.639
<v Speaker 5>inventory apparently of these pill.

842
00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:15.320
<v Speaker 3>Bibles that you ever tied about right.

843
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:19.559
<v Speaker 5>For the d she she asked you to looking and

844
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.679
<v Speaker 5>tell us how many pills were missing.

845
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.320
<v Speaker 14>Right, I did that for the ones that were turned in, right.

846
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.000
<v Speaker 3>And nobody ever looked at these bubbles right.

847
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:29.199
<v Speaker 5>I don't know if they have or not, if I

848
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:33.920
<v Speaker 5>understand correctly. Lorazepam as council asked.

849
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.199
<v Speaker 3>You, uh the dates that these scripts were written.

850
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:41.440
<v Speaker 5>The larazepam as you indicated was October twenty six. The

851
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:46.440
<v Speaker 5>busperone was the same date, October twenty six. The hydroxyzine

852
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:53.320
<v Speaker 5>was October twenty seventh flask Flamazepam was into November twenty

853
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:57.760
<v Speaker 5>five flocks the team was November Larrazipim was the beginning

854
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.159
<v Speaker 5>of November, November two busperine.

855
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:02.159
<v Speaker 3>These were all.

856
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:06.719
<v Speaker 5>Pills that were issued on prescriptions in about a three

857
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:07.599
<v Speaker 5>week period of time.

858
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:08.320
<v Speaker 3>Is that correct?

859
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.880
<v Speaker 14>Yeah, whatever the dates are, they would prescribe.

860
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:16.000
<v Speaker 5>Would you say that Patrick Clancy was very cooperative with

861
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:19.159
<v Speaker 5>your investigation anything you needed, he was pretty much there

862
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:20.360
<v Speaker 5>to try to help you out.

863
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.159
<v Speaker 15>I think I only dealt with him at the hospital,

864
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:24.719
<v Speaker 15>but he was very forthcoming.

865
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:27.719
<v Speaker 5>Okay, thank you, that's all I have to come.

866
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:30.159
<v Speaker 17>Thank you, sir.

867
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Counsel would call Maureen Fartnett as its next fitness.

868
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:46.239
<v Speaker 4>Good morning, morning.

869
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:54.679
<v Speaker 2>All right, counsel, thank you, good morning. Could you please

870
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:55.199
<v Speaker 2>club the jers.

871
00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:57.719
<v Speaker 8>Your first and last name Enheartnett.

872
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.239
<v Speaker 2>And how are you employed? What do you do for work?

873
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:03.519
<v Speaker 1>Im a forensic scientist too in the criminalistics unit as

874
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:06.400
<v Speaker 1>well as a crime scene response unit at the Massachusetts

875
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:07.639
<v Speaker 1>State Police Crime Laboratory.

876
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:10.000
<v Speaker 2>And how long have you worked for the crime lab.

877
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.599
<v Speaker 1>Approximately a total of ten years.

878
00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:15.880
<v Speaker 2>And what are your general responsibilities? As a forensic scientists too.

879
00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:20.199
<v Speaker 1>In the criminalistics unit, I examine items of evidence for

880
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.559
<v Speaker 1>the possible presence of biological fluids such as blood, semen,

881
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:27.360
<v Speaker 1>and saliva, and those items would include clothing, weapons, or

882
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:31.119
<v Speaker 1>sexual assault hits among other items. I also collect and

883
00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:35.400
<v Speaker 1>identify trace materials such as hairs and fibers. I perform

884
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.880
<v Speaker 1>damage analysis on clothing and collect gunshot residues.

885
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.559
<v Speaker 2>Do you have to undergo some specific training and education

886
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.760
<v Speaker 2>in order to perform those tasks at the crime lab. Yes.

887
00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:48.280
<v Speaker 1>I have a bachelor's degree in biology as well as

888
00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:51.480
<v Speaker 1>a master's degree in forensic science. In addition, I received

889
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.679
<v Speaker 1>approximately nine months of training in the crime laboratory as well.

890
00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Do you have to take proficiency or competency tests on

891
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:00.840
<v Speaker 2>a regular basis?

892
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:04.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So competity test is taken after each module in

893
00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:10.400
<v Speaker 1>the training. They address certain things like blood identification, seaman identification,

894
00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:13.679
<v Speaker 1>and after each of those modules I took a competency

895
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.559
<v Speaker 1>test to move on to the next portion of the training. Yearly,

896
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:20.960
<v Speaker 1>I also take multiple proficiency tests in biological fluid identification

897
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:23.800
<v Speaker 1>as well as trace identification and crime scene response.

898
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to talk a little bit first about the

899
00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:31.719
<v Speaker 2>crime scene response. So you, as a forensic scientist are

900
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:32.760
<v Speaker 2>a civilian? Correct?

901
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:33.719
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

902
00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Do you often work in tandem with a trooper from

903
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:38.719
<v Speaker 2>the crime scene Services section? Yes?

904
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:41.519
<v Speaker 1>Generally I work alongside law enforcement as well as crime

905
00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:43.679
<v Speaker 1>scene services when processing at crime scene.

906
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:45.960
<v Speaker 2>And when you go to a crime scene to process

907
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.159
<v Speaker 2>with the crime scene response unit, what's the goal or

908
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:50.519
<v Speaker 2>what are you looking to do there?

909
00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:56.199
<v Speaker 1>My focus generally is on biological evidence such as blood, semen, saliva,

910
00:44:56.920 --> 00:45:01.159
<v Speaker 1>as well as documentation through sketches and diagram and.

911
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:03.920
<v Speaker 2>The trooper from the crime Scene Services section that is

912
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:08.519
<v Speaker 2>usually there the law enforcement are they also documenting the

913
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:12.679
<v Speaker 2>scene as well and reviewing those same areas but through photographs?

914
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I can't speak for all of their responsibilities.

915
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:16.519
<v Speaker 3>Do you know?

916
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.400
<v Speaker 1>They take photographs, video, and they also take their own

917
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:20.639
<v Speaker 1>diagrams on occasion.

918
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:29.320
<v Speaker 2>Now, in addition to locating biological evidence, do you sometimes

919
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:32.280
<v Speaker 2>perform what's called screening tests at crime scenes?

920
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:32.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

921
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:33.039
<v Speaker 3>I do?

922
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:35.119
<v Speaker 2>And what are the common screening tests that you can

923
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:36.320
<v Speaker 2>do at a crime scene?

924
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.360
<v Speaker 1>I perform screening tests for blood as well as screening

925
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:42.039
<v Speaker 1>tests for sceneen depending on the case history and what

926
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.400
<v Speaker 1>the forensic relevant evidence is.

927
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:47.639
<v Speaker 2>And does that help inform you on what to collect

928
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>from a crime scene? Sometimes?

929
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

930
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:52.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm free to say if there's large a pool of

931
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:54.960
<v Speaker 2>blood on a floor, you can't collect that all and

932
00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:55.960
<v Speaker 2>take it back to the lab.

933
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Correct, Yes, that's correct.

934
00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.320
<v Speaker 2>So how do you collect a sampling of it in

935
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:03.000
<v Speaker 2>order to then later process something like a red brown

936
00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:07.480
<v Speaker 2>stain or some sort of biological spot or stain that

937
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:08.119
<v Speaker 2>you observe.

938
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Depending on the substrate on which the biological flood is located,

939
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:14.440
<v Speaker 1>I'll take a swabbing of the item, which is generally

940
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 1>something like a Q tip to swab up the stain,

941
00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:20.239
<v Speaker 1>or if it's on a soft surface, I could potentially

942
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.400
<v Speaker 1>take a cutting to preserve that biological evidence for future testing.

943
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.000
<v Speaker 2>And in some instances do you actually take the whole

944
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:26.639
<v Speaker 2>object if.

945
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:29.400
<v Speaker 1>It's possible In some instances, yes, that's correct. We would

946
00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:30.960
<v Speaker 1>take the whole object, depending on what it is.

947
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:35.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth

948
00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:38.960
<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty three. Do you recall being asked to

949
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:41.079
<v Speaker 2>come out with the crime scene response unit on that

950
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:42.679
<v Speaker 2>day or this evening? Yes?

951
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:42.920
<v Speaker 3>I do.

952
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:47.440
<v Speaker 2>And where was the first place that you went in

953
00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:48.159
<v Speaker 2>this response?

954
00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:52.360
<v Speaker 1>I responded to Seal Shore Hospital the emergency department, and.

955
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Fair to say that Trooper Rose Staffers was also dispatched

956
00:46:56.559 --> 00:46:57.760
<v Speaker 2>to that location as well.

957
00:46:58.199 --> 00:46:59.039
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

958
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:02.400
<v Speaker 2>And did you make observations of a person who was

959
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:05.239
<v Speaker 2>identified as Lindsay Clancy at Slusher Hospital? Yes?

960
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:05.559
<v Speaker 10>I did.

961
00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:09.920
<v Speaker 2>And did you observe her to have red brown stains

962
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:10.840
<v Speaker 2>on her body?

963
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:13.679
<v Speaker 1>I noted red brown stains on her hands. I did

964
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:16.480
<v Speaker 1>not have the opportunity to examine her entire body. She

965
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:20.119
<v Speaker 1>was mostly covered with blankets and other types of medical equipment.

966
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:22.880
<v Speaker 1>But I did not red brown stains on her hands.

967
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:26.119
<v Speaker 2>And clearly she was there for some sort of treatment, right,

968
00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:29.000
<v Speaker 2>So why was your focus on her hands? As a

969
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:32.320
<v Speaker 2>crime scene response technician and a criminalist at that.

970
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:34.199
<v Speaker 1>Point in time, I was collecting samples from her hands

971
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.920
<v Speaker 1>for potential biological evidence relating to the crime. So when

972
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:40.079
<v Speaker 1>I noted the red brown scenes, I collected samples from

973
00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:40.840
<v Speaker 1>her hands.

974
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:44.719
<v Speaker 2>And while at Selshaer Hospital, you are also aware that

975
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:47.679
<v Speaker 2>she had come into the hospital with clothing that.

976
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Was cut off correct, Yes, that's correct.

977
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.039
<v Speaker 2>And that clothing was bagged up and collected.

978
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:55.679
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I returned that clothing to the crime laboratory.

979
00:47:57.320 --> 00:47:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Who did you receive the clothing from.

980
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:02.440
<v Speaker 1>I believe it was Trooper Dan Lawler.

981
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.360
<v Speaker 2>At some point after being at Selfshore Hospital. Did you

982
00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:11.159
<v Speaker 2>then respond to forty seven Summer Street in Duxbury.

983
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:12.039
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I did.

984
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.519
<v Speaker 2>Did you have somebody with you that day?

985
00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:16.960
<v Speaker 1>I had a forensic scientist training at that.

986
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:23.679
<v Speaker 2>Time At forty seven Summer Street. Were you directed to

987
00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:25.679
<v Speaker 2>a particular area to examine first?

988
00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:30.760
<v Speaker 1>I first entered the home through the main floor and

989
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:32.559
<v Speaker 1>then was directed into the basement of the home.

990
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.400
<v Speaker 2>And when you came into the basement or I guess

991
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:38.719
<v Speaker 2>this could be true of when you respond to the

992
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:44.599
<v Speaker 2>most crime scenes. Is it the best the best practice

993
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:46.400
<v Speaker 2>to be one of the first in the home to

994
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.400
<v Speaker 2>examine at the home as it is or the scene

995
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:49.920
<v Speaker 2>as it is.

996
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Generally crime tcene services would enter first to photograph and

997
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.000
<v Speaker 1>video so that there's no personnel in those photos or videos.

998
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Then I would normally enter, whether crimes scene response you

999
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:03.800
<v Speaker 1>know it would enter next so that nothing is disturbed

1000
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:06.440
<v Speaker 1>and that we can mark and test and collect evidence

1001
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:10.239
<v Speaker 1>as is prior to the detective unit coming in. And

1002
00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:14.000
<v Speaker 1>then once our things are marked and documented, then the

1003
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:15.800
<v Speaker 1>detective unit would also enter the residence.

1004
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:18.840
<v Speaker 2>So when you came into the basement at forty seven

1005
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Summer Street, did you observe some areas of the basement

1006
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:28.360
<v Speaker 2>that were of significance to you as the crime scene

1007
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:31.360
<v Speaker 2>reserve crime scene response?

1008
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

1009
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:35.400
<v Speaker 2>I did. And did you observe a red brand stain

1010
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:36.000
<v Speaker 2>on the floor?

1011
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:36.639
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1012
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:38.880
<v Speaker 2>I did. Once you observe it, what do you do

1013
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:40.719
<v Speaker 2>with that stain?

1014
00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:44.440
<v Speaker 1>I marked the stain using a piece of ruler tape,

1015
00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:47.159
<v Speaker 1>and I designated that stain as stain A so that

1016
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:49.079
<v Speaker 1>I can properly refer to it in my report.

1017
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm gonna is that familiar to you? Yes? It is?

1018
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:57.119
<v Speaker 12>Is that stain A that you just told us about?

1019
00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:00.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct, it may be admitted.

1020
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:03.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm showing you now on the screen what's been Marcus

1021
00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Exhibit one. Obviously this appears to be on carpet craft.

1022
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:09.400
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

1023
00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:11.960
<v Speaker 12>What did you do to collect sampling of that?

1024
00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Well? I guess what is the person you did.

1025
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:15.239
<v Speaker 3>With that stain?

1026
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:18.039
<v Speaker 1>So once I marked it, I then requested it be photographed,

1027
00:50:18.079 --> 00:50:20.679
<v Speaker 1>and that is a resulting photograph from that request. I

1028
00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:23.119
<v Speaker 1>then performed a screening test for the presence of blood

1029
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:26.480
<v Speaker 1>on that stain. The screening test was positive. And at

1030
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.719
<v Speaker 1>that point, once I documented that result in my notes,

1031
00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.159
<v Speaker 1>I then took two swabs of that stain for further testing.

1032
00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:35.599
<v Speaker 2>Now, when you're out a scene and you see something

1033
00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:38.239
<v Speaker 2>that is a red fern stain, you don't refer to

1034
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:39.199
<v Speaker 2>the ask blood.

1035
00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:40.639
<v Speaker 1>Crash, that's correct, And.

1036
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Even after the screening test, you don't refer to the

1037
00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:47.159
<v Speaker 2>ask blood do you? That's correct. Those preliminary tests are

1038
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:49.679
<v Speaker 2>just screens, and so what do you do to then

1039
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:50.840
<v Speaker 2>later confirm it?

1040
00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:54.599
<v Speaker 1>Once a swab is collected and then submitted to the lab.

1041
00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:57.719
<v Speaker 1>Later when I'm assigned to the case in the criminalistics unit.

1042
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:00.559
<v Speaker 1>In the lab, I'll then perform a confirmatory tests on

1043
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.079
<v Speaker 1>any swabs that they're interested in that need to be

1044
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:10.599
<v Speaker 1>tested further and so as it, I apply di andized

1045
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:13.840
<v Speaker 1>water to Q tips and apply it to the stain,

1046
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:15.840
<v Speaker 1>and then the red brown stain is then transferred to

1047
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:19.039
<v Speaker 1>the Q tips. I then package those, seal them, and

1048
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:21.840
<v Speaker 1>enter them into our laboratory system and store them in

1049
00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:24.119
<v Speaker 1>a cold storage unit until they're ready to be further tested.

1050
00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Fair to say, with this particular investigation, the swabbing from

1051
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:32.320
<v Speaker 2>that stain a on the basement floor was labeled as

1052
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.480
<v Speaker 2>item three dash three.

1053
00:51:33.880 --> 00:51:35.119
<v Speaker 1>That's correct.

1054
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Did you also go to another area of the house?

1055
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:40.159
<v Speaker 8>Yes?

1056
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:40.480
<v Speaker 3>I did?

1057
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:43.119
<v Speaker 2>And what other areas did you go?

1058
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.199
<v Speaker 1>I went up to the master bedroom on the second

1059
00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:46.960
<v Speaker 1>floor of the house.

1060
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:51.679
<v Speaker 2>Did you observe additional red brown stains in that master bedroom? Yes?

1061
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:52.039
<v Speaker 10>I did.

1062
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:57.360
<v Speaker 2>And so again, when you observe stains, you then note them,

1063
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:01.480
<v Speaker 2>mark them, document them. Correct, that's correct. And how many

1064
00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:05.400
<v Speaker 2>stains did you document in the master bedroom?

1065
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:05.719
<v Speaker 14>Four?

1066
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:06.440
<v Speaker 3>Okay?

1067
00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:10.079
<v Speaker 2>And again, just like the stain on the basement, were

1068
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:12.719
<v Speaker 2>you labeled A? Do you kind of start over with

1069
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.920
<v Speaker 2>the stains in the other bedroom or do you continue

1070
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:17.880
<v Speaker 2>to label them in sequence?

1071
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.159
<v Speaker 1>I continue to label them in sequence as they were

1072
00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:21.239
<v Speaker 1>B through E.

1073
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:22.199
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

1074
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:26.840
<v Speaker 2>So first referring to stain B, do you recall where

1075
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:28.480
<v Speaker 2>that was in the master bedroom.

1076
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:30.519
<v Speaker 1>That was on the floor of the master bedroom, in

1077
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:33.519
<v Speaker 1>between the bed and the mirror photo.

1078
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:41.280
<v Speaker 2>And was that fair to say stay in be stains? Yes?

1079
00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:41.760
<v Speaker 18>True?

1080
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:42.599
<v Speaker 1>Correct?

1081
00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Maybe admitted I started showing you one fifty nine on

1082
00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the screen Pratusly, that's not one one stain that was

1083
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:59.079
<v Speaker 2>observed cracked, that's correcked. But what did you do to

1084
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:06.119
<v Speaker 2>collective anything or screened this particular area of red brown stains.

1085
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Sure, so in this particular case, based on the stains

1086
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:14.360
<v Speaker 1>size and distribution, I consider them a related group of stains.

1087
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:17.920
<v Speaker 1>So I tested one of the stains, performed the screening

1088
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:20.760
<v Speaker 1>tests for the presence of blood. That was positive. So

1089
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:23.079
<v Speaker 1>then I collected to swap from that stain just like

1090
00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:24.119
<v Speaker 1>the other one as before.

1091
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:30.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, another photograph that area is that familiar as well?

1092
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:35.360
<v Speaker 17>Yes, all right, that may be admitted.

1093
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:39.639
<v Speaker 2>And again now showing what's been MARKEDUS one sixty, you've

1094
00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:43.280
<v Speaker 2>now testified that there was a grouping of stains, and

1095
00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:46.800
<v Speaker 2>so based on your observations with the grouping, you were

1096
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:51.760
<v Speaker 2>able to identify that they appeared related. That's correct. How

1097
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:53.840
<v Speaker 2>about stain C. Where was that located?

1098
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Stain C I believe was located on the mirror, and.

1099
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:02.400
<v Speaker 2>Just going back to one THI none for reference. Can

1100
00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:06.119
<v Speaker 2>you see the bottom legs of the mirror in this photograph? Yes,

1101
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:09.760
<v Speaker 2>so they were, it was close to that cluster of staines.

1102
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:10.559
<v Speaker 1>That's correct.

1103
00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:15.000
<v Speaker 12>You another photography depict the.

1104
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Stained CE that you noted from here, Yes, it does.

1105
00:54:20.599 --> 00:54:21.440
<v Speaker 4>That may be admitted.

1106
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:25.599
<v Speaker 2>With with what's now been Marcus one sixty one stained

1107
00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:29.199
<v Speaker 2>c again, is would this be kind of a cluster

1108
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:31.800
<v Speaker 2>of related red ground stains.

1109
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:35.519
<v Speaker 1>Yes, based on their location and their shape. I collected

1110
00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:36.760
<v Speaker 1>one scene from that area.

1111
00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:38.920
<v Speaker 2>Did you perform that scene screening test?

1112
00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:39.639
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1113
00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:40.000
<v Speaker 1>I did?

1114
00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:42.960
<v Speaker 2>And what was the results? It was positive? And did

1115
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.440
<v Speaker 2>you then swallow and collapse from one of those scenes? Well, yes,

1116
00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I did, no stain d Do you recall where that

1117
00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:52.360
<v Speaker 2>was in the bedroom?

1118
00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:53.840
<v Speaker 1>That was on the windowsill?

1119
00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:59.639
<v Speaker 2>Are you two more photos those represents where you identify

1120
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:01.760
<v Speaker 2>as yes.

1121
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:05.400
<v Speaker 4>I would, he may be admitted.

1122
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Showing you one sixty two, First, Curtsey, that's the inside

1123
00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:13.840
<v Speaker 2>of the windows still cracked inside the bedroom.

1124
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

1125
00:55:16.119 --> 00:55:17.760
<v Speaker 2>That night that you were there, did you make any

1126
00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:21.119
<v Speaker 2>observations of any stanes on the outside of the window sill?

1127
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:23.639
<v Speaker 1>Yes, each of those were documented three photographs.

1128
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Did you collect any swabbings from the scenes on the

1129
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:28.000
<v Speaker 2>outside of the window so that night?

1130
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:28.800
<v Speaker 1>No, I did not.

1131
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.880
<v Speaker 2>And just kind of showing you for the jury. One

1132
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:35.320
<v Speaker 2>sixty three. That's just a further close up of some

1133
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:39.679
<v Speaker 2>of the staines. And is that fair to represent the

1134
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:43.840
<v Speaker 2>area that you tested for the screen and then later swabbed. Yes,

1135
00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:46.360
<v Speaker 2>that's cracked and staying e.

1136
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:49.159
<v Speaker 1>Do you recaller that was located that was located on

1137
00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:50.199
<v Speaker 1>the night stand next to.

1138
00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:54.800
<v Speaker 12>The bed photograph?

1139
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Is that familiar to be staying e?

1140
00:55:56.800 --> 00:55:59.519
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

1141
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:00.840
<v Speaker 3>It may be admitted.

1142
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.440
<v Speaker 2>And I'm just showing you another photograph of the outside

1143
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:05.000
<v Speaker 2>of the house.

1144
00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:07.719
<v Speaker 12>Do you see staining that you observe that night on

1145
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:08.320
<v Speaker 12>the outside?

1146
00:56:08.599 --> 00:56:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

1147
00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:12.119
<v Speaker 14>I do, and I night that may be admitted.

1148
00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:19.079
<v Speaker 2>So first exhibit one sixty four, you observe several staines in.

1149
00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:20.760
<v Speaker 1>That location, Yes, I did.

1150
00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And did you do the same thing as some of

1151
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:27.119
<v Speaker 2>the other grouping of stains screen one area, swap from one.

1152
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Area, Yes, that's correct.

1153
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:34.000
<v Speaker 2>And just now showing exhibit one sixty five, if you

1154
00:56:34.039 --> 00:56:40.320
<v Speaker 2>can see at the top stain on the outside of

1155
00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:44.000
<v Speaker 2>the windowsill, did you observe that on January twenty fourth, Yes,

1156
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:47.000
<v Speaker 2>I did, but you did not swap or screen that.

1157
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:48.159
<v Speaker 1>S that's correct?

1158
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Why not?

1159
00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Generally we don't collect every single scene from a scene.

1160
00:56:56.119 --> 00:57:00.519
<v Speaker 1>I organize the stains based on location, size, shaped distribution

1161
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:03.840
<v Speaker 1>and collected from multiple areas and then the particular taste.

1162
00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:06.440
<v Speaker 1>I knew there was a single bleeder in that area,

1163
00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:09.559
<v Speaker 1>so I collected from numerous staines just not that particular one.

1164
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:13.199
<v Speaker 2>And in addition to that stain on the windows. Still

1165
00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:16.360
<v Speaker 2>fair to say you did observe some other standing on

1166
00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:18.920
<v Speaker 2>the outside of the house as well, further down the

1167
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:23.480
<v Speaker 2>window and on top of the first floor window frame.

1168
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:24.360
<v Speaker 1>Yes I did.

1169
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:28.320
<v Speaker 2>While you were out in the backyard, did you also

1170
00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:32.960
<v Speaker 2>observe staining or red brown stains in the yard? Yes?

1171
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:36.039
<v Speaker 2>I did. And did you do that same procedure of

1172
00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:40.840
<v Speaker 2>marking it, screening it, collecting a sample from it?

1173
00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I did, just gonna show you a more.

1174
00:57:48.280 --> 00:57:55.079
<v Speaker 2>Is that familiar? Yes, it is.

1175
00:57:53.239 --> 00:57:56.400
<v Speaker 14>Correct, may be admitted.

1176
00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.559
<v Speaker 2>As far as the work that you did on the

1177
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:03.360
<v Speaker 2>scene at forty seven Summer Street on January twenty fourth,

1178
00:58:03.679 --> 00:58:08.719
<v Speaker 2>fair to say it was limited to documenting these areas

1179
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:11.159
<v Speaker 2>swabbing these areas for the most part.

1180
00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:14.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And I also collected a pair of pajamas and

1181
00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:15.559
<v Speaker 1>a pink pathrobe from the basement.

1182
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Were all of the swabbings and those items collected brought

1183
00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:22.400
<v Speaker 2>back to the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab?

1184
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:23.159
<v Speaker 1>Yes, they were.

1185
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:26.639
<v Speaker 2>Are you aware that there were other items that were

1186
00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:29.360
<v Speaker 2>collected within that home on January twenty fourth that were

1187
00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:31.519
<v Speaker 2>also brought back to the State Police crime Lab for

1188
00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:36.400
<v Speaker 2>further analysis. Yes. Moving to January twenty fifth of twenty

1189
00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:40.119
<v Speaker 2>twenty three, did you go to the Brigham and Women's

1190
00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Hospital as part of the crime scene response again to

1191
00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:48.440
<v Speaker 2>see Lindsay Clancy, the defendant? Yes, I did, and you

1192
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:50.559
<v Speaker 2>observed her at that location as well? Yes?

1193
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:50.880
<v Speaker 10>I did.

1194
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:52.559
<v Speaker 2>Do you take further samples from her?

1195
00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:57.239
<v Speaker 1>Yes? I collected samples swabbings from underneath her fingernails.

1196
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:01.360
<v Speaker 2>And then, as far as you're duties on this case

1197
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:04.159
<v Speaker 2>with crime scene response, did you return back to forty

1198
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.039
<v Speaker 2>seven Summer Street on January fifteenth of twenty twenty three?

1199
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:10.519
<v Speaker 1>I believe I returned on June fifteenth.

1200
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:12.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry June fifteenth, thank you?

1201
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I did.

1202
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:17.960
<v Speaker 2>And when you returned to the home on June fifteenth,

1203
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:20.199
<v Speaker 2>did you go in the nighttime in the daytime? I

1204
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.679
<v Speaker 2>went during the day and again with a crime scene

1205
00:59:23.719 --> 00:59:25.880
<v Speaker 2>response trooper or a crime scene services trooper.

1206
00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:26.719
<v Speaker 1>Yes, correct.

1207
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:28.960
<v Speaker 2>What was the purpose of going back to forty seven

1208
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Summer Street on June fifteenth?

1209
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:34.280
<v Speaker 1>I was informed that additional testing was being requested on

1210
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:36.320
<v Speaker 1>some of the red brown scenes that were noted on

1211
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:38.480
<v Speaker 1>the X tier of the house up on the shingles.

1212
00:59:38.760 --> 00:59:41.320
<v Speaker 1>They had not previously collected from so I went back

1213
00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.199
<v Speaker 1>to see if I could potentially collect samples from those.

1214
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:48.519
<v Speaker 2>Is that something in your training and experience is possible

1215
00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:53.519
<v Speaker 2>to collect biological substances from something like a shingle months

1216
00:59:53.559 --> 00:59:55.000
<v Speaker 2>after the incident occurred.

1217
00:59:55.239 --> 00:59:57.400
<v Speaker 1>It's possible, So if it's requested, we'll certainly go out

1218
00:59:57.440 --> 00:59:58.360
<v Speaker 1>an attempt to do that.

1219
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:02.119
<v Speaker 2>And in this particular in incident, you went out and

1220
01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:05.199
<v Speaker 2>first made observations of the rear of the home correct, Yes,

1221
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:10.360
<v Speaker 2>that's correct, And then made closer observations of underneath that

1222
01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:11.880
<v Speaker 2>second floor window.

1223
01:00:12.119 --> 01:00:12.679
<v Speaker 1>Yes, correct?

1224
01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.719
<v Speaker 2>Did you observe any obvious staining in that area?

1225
01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:19.239
<v Speaker 1>There appeared to be a reddish brown stain underneath the windowsill.

1226
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:22.880
<v Speaker 2>So what did you do once you observed those stains?

1227
01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:26.559
<v Speaker 1>I marked that stain as stain A, and then I

1228
01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:30.440
<v Speaker 1>also marked additional stains for the down on the side

1229
01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:31.719
<v Speaker 1>of the house on the shingles.

1230
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Where was stain A.

1231
01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:40.039
<v Speaker 1>That was right underneath the windowsill of the window that

1232
01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:42.280
<v Speaker 1>was farthest right what would have been the master bedroom

1233
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:43.039
<v Speaker 1>on the xterior.

1234
01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:53.159
<v Speaker 2>This photograph of the room the home, is this photograph

1235
01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:56.679
<v Speaker 2>at least show the area where you observe stan A. Yes,

1236
01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:01.400
<v Speaker 2>And can you point out to you where that was sure.

1237
01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:03.039
<v Speaker 1>It was sort of on the left side near where

1238
01:01:03.079 --> 01:01:05.599
<v Speaker 1>this this orange it seems to be some sort of

1239
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:09.239
<v Speaker 1>window insulation, So it was right underneath there. So I

1240
01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:10.599
<v Speaker 1>did perform a screen.

1241
01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:12.159
<v Speaker 12>Test on that, and what were the results of the

1242
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:12.719
<v Speaker 12>screening test?

1243
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:13.519
<v Speaker 1>That was negative?

1244
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.320
<v Speaker 4>I would move to Admitphis, it may be admitted.

1245
01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:23.519
<v Speaker 2>And on June fifteenth, when you were there twenty twenty three,

1246
01:01:23.679 --> 01:01:29.760
<v Speaker 2>showing you now Exhibit one sixty seven kind of closing

1247
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:34.719
<v Speaker 2>in on underneath that window, there's that orange ball that

1248
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:38.159
<v Speaker 2>you describe, appeared to be some sort of insulation, correct,

1249
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:41.840
<v Speaker 2>and that was negative. That that staying observe was negative,

1250
01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:42.800
<v Speaker 2>so you didn't do anything.

1251
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:43.039
<v Speaker 5>Further with that.

1252
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:44.199
<v Speaker 1>That's correct.

1253
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:49.960
<v Speaker 2>As far as the the other areas you have Stains B,

1254
01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:51.239
<v Speaker 2>C and D correct.

1255
01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:52.719
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

1256
01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Orient Is that a fair representation of San Dy? Yes,

1257
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:04.840
<v Speaker 2>that's correct. And well in here stay C and D.

1258
01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

1259
01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:09.679
<v Speaker 12>And again stay B is kind of in between the

1260
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:11.360
<v Speaker 12>top floor window and.

1261
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:15.159
<v Speaker 2>The first floor window. Correct, And Stain's C and D

1262
01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:17.960
<v Speaker 2>are just above the first floor window.

1263
01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

1264
01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:24.880
<v Speaker 7>All right, those may be admitted, Council.

1265
01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:27.159
<v Speaker 4>It's just about eleven o'clock. Why don't we take the

1266
01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:29.800
<v Speaker 4>morning recess at this time? All right, so we can

1267
01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:31.599
<v Speaker 4>take the morning break at this time.

1268
01:02:32.280 --> 01:02:35.599
<v Speaker 3>Members of the jury, all.

1269
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:45.480
<v Speaker 7>Okay, cool, that same thing we need to talk about

1270
01:02:45.559 --> 01:02:48.679
<v Speaker 7>for the break, all right, so we'll be in the

1271
01:02:48.679 --> 01:02:50.000
<v Speaker 7>morning recess at this time.

1272
01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:53.800
<v Speaker 3>Thank you. That is correct.

1273
01:02:54.039 --> 01:02:57.440
<v Speaker 2>And again we talked briefly earlier about the fact that

1274
01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:00.719
<v Speaker 2>there's always a screen and then that there you can't

1275
01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:04.039
<v Speaker 2>make a determination of the substance until a confirmatory test

1276
01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:07.079
<v Speaker 2>is done. Correct, that's correct, And so that is a

1277
01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:10.639
<v Speaker 2>process that you do at the lab. Yes. Correct. And

1278
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:17.440
<v Speaker 2>as far as the knife that we just were referring to,

1279
01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:21.360
<v Speaker 2>the knife that was recovered, what's an exhibit one seventy,

1280
01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:25.559
<v Speaker 2>you were able to examine that further or swabs taken

1281
01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:29.199
<v Speaker 2>from that knife at the lab, that's correct, and confirm

1282
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:31.719
<v Speaker 2>that what you say was stain a and the blade

1283
01:03:31.719 --> 01:03:34.159
<v Speaker 2>of that knife was confirmed to be blood.

1284
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I performed the screening test as well as the

1285
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:39.599
<v Speaker 1>confirmatory test for blood on stain a at the laboratory.

1286
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:43.719
<v Speaker 2>Now, once you are in the laboratory and determine that

1287
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:46.880
<v Speaker 2>blood is confirmed on these particular items or that there

1288
01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:50.679
<v Speaker 2>is biological substance present. Do you do anything to prepare

1289
01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:53.840
<v Speaker 2>those items for further testing in a different unit of

1290
01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:54.239
<v Speaker 2>the lab?

1291
01:03:54.519 --> 01:03:57.320
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I do. What do you do for the swabs

1292
01:03:57.320 --> 01:03:59.280
<v Speaker 1>that I collected and for the swabbings that I took

1293
01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:01.639
<v Speaker 1>off the knife? I then cut them off, give them

1294
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:06.320
<v Speaker 1>a separate item number, and preserve those for potential DNA analysis.

1295
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:10.159
<v Speaker 1>Half of the samples also preserved for any future analysis

1296
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:11.440
<v Speaker 1>if necessary.

1297
01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:14.400
<v Speaker 2>And fair to say, it's a different unit at a

1298
01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:17.599
<v Speaker 2>different part of the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab that

1299
01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:20.800
<v Speaker 2>conducts DNA testing. Correct. That's correct, And so if some

1300
01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:23.800
<v Speaker 2>of the items that you examined or selected for further testing,

1301
01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:27.239
<v Speaker 2>those swabbings or further snippets would then be sent to

1302
01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:31.639
<v Speaker 2>the unit DNA unit. That's correct now, as it pertains

1303
01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:34.239
<v Speaker 2>to some of the other items that were collected from

1304
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:38.119
<v Speaker 2>forty seven Summer Street. You also did some work on

1305
01:04:38.360 --> 01:04:40.159
<v Speaker 2>three exercise bands, correct?

1306
01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I did?

1307
01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:44.159
<v Speaker 2>And what did you do in relation to the three

1308
01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:46.360
<v Speaker 2>exercise bands that were collected.

1309
01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:49.920
<v Speaker 1>After documenting them in the lab? I took samples from

1310
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:52.440
<v Speaker 1>each of the ends of the exercise bands, as well

1311
01:04:52.480 --> 01:04:54.599
<v Speaker 1>as a separate sample from the center of each of

1312
01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:55.559
<v Speaker 1>the exercise bands.

1313
01:04:55.800 --> 01:04:56.079
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

1314
01:04:56.239 --> 01:04:59.639
<v Speaker 2>And so the first band, which is identified as a

1315
01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:04.440
<v Speaker 2>yellow exercise band, had previously been identified as item two

1316
01:05:04.519 --> 01:05:05.599
<v Speaker 2>dash too. Correct.

1317
01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:06.239
<v Speaker 1>That's correct.

1318
01:05:06.320 --> 01:05:06.599
<v Speaker 8>Okay.

1319
01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:08.960
<v Speaker 2>And so did you take samples from both the ends

1320
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:10.280
<v Speaker 2>in the middle of that item?

1321
01:05:10.360 --> 01:05:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I did.

1322
01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:17.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna approve with a photograph. Is that familiar

1323
01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:17.440
<v Speaker 2>to you?

1324
01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it is.

1325
01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And in addition to actually taking the swaps, you also

1326
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:26.559
<v Speaker 2>document the item that you're analyzing and reviewing. Correct. Yes.

1327
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Prior to performing any kind of collection of testing on

1328
01:05:29.480 --> 01:05:30.679
<v Speaker 1>an item, I'll photograph it.

1329
01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:33.400
<v Speaker 2>And so this particular photograph is Is it fair to

1330
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:35.639
<v Speaker 2>say this is a photograph from your work at the

1331
01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:39.440
<v Speaker 2>laboratory with a yellow exercise band. Yes, it is.

1332
01:05:39.559 --> 01:05:43.599
<v Speaker 4>Next exhibit that may be admitted, thank you.

1333
01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay. So I'm it started now showing you what's been

1334
01:05:48.679 --> 01:05:53.280
<v Speaker 2>markets exhibit one se and you indicated that you took

1335
01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:57.360
<v Speaker 2>swabbings from around the handle areas correct? Correct, and then

1336
01:05:57.400 --> 01:05:58.679
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the band.

1337
01:05:58.960 --> 01:05:59.559
<v Speaker 1>That's correct.

1338
01:05:59.679 --> 01:06:00.960
<v Speaker 19>Why do the thing?

1339
01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:05.000
<v Speaker 1>The purpose of the collection was to potentially determine who

1340
01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:07.519
<v Speaker 1>was holding or had contact with the ends of the

1341
01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:09.800
<v Speaker 1>band and who potentially had contact with the center of

1342
01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:13.039
<v Speaker 1>the band. Potentially there was being two different individuals. So

1343
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:16.400
<v Speaker 1>I collected samples separate from the ends as in addition

1344
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:16.960
<v Speaker 1>to the center.

1345
01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:19.639
<v Speaker 2>And was your approach on each one of the bands

1346
01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:23.519
<v Speaker 2>the same, Yes, it was okay. So the second band,

1347
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:27.199
<v Speaker 2>which is the black band that was identified as item

1348
01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:31.280
<v Speaker 2>two Dash three, you took samples again from the ends

1349
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.840
<v Speaker 2>in the middle. That's correct. And I'm just going to

1350
01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:38.960
<v Speaker 2>show you another photograph. And is that the black band

1351
01:06:39.039 --> 01:06:40.199
<v Speaker 2>you examined.

1352
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it is.

1353
01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:44.119
<v Speaker 4>That may be admitted.

1354
01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:56.480
<v Speaker 2>And finally, the blue exercise band that was recovered from

1355
01:06:56.679 --> 01:06:59.800
<v Speaker 2>the home at forty seven Summer Street that was identified

1356
01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:02.400
<v Speaker 2>as I'm two dash four, did you examine it in

1357
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:04.679
<v Speaker 2>the same fashion I'm swabbing the ends in the.

1358
01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Middle, Yes, I did.

1359
01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:09.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, photograph when you were examining it.

1360
01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:10.599
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it is.

1361
01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:13.039
<v Speaker 7>All right.

1362
01:07:13.079 --> 01:07:14.000
<v Speaker 3>That may be admitted.

1363
01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And as far as the swabbings that you took of

1364
01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:25.480
<v Speaker 2>these each of these three exercise bands, what did you

1365
01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:28.599
<v Speaker 2>do with the swabbings after you swabbed the items.

1366
01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:31.960
<v Speaker 1>I allowed the swabs to air dry, I gave them

1367
01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:34.960
<v Speaker 1>each a item number, and then I preserved half of

1368
01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:37.519
<v Speaker 1>each of the swabs for additional testing in the DNA unit.

1369
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:41.559
<v Speaker 2>And as far as your knowledge of some of the

1370
01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:45.760
<v Speaker 2>additional testing. You're aware that the exercise band swabbings were

1371
01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:48.880
<v Speaker 2>sent forward to the DNA unit for additional analysis.

1372
01:07:48.880 --> 01:07:50.400
<v Speaker 1>Correct, Yes, that's my understanding.

1373
01:07:52.119 --> 01:07:59.480
<v Speaker 3>Thank you, thank you, thank cross, thank you. M definitely

1374
01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:03.960
<v Speaker 3>so I was having it.

1375
01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:09.000
<v Speaker 5>You initially went into the home at forty seventh Summes

1376
01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:11.400
<v Speaker 5>Street at what time that day?

1377
01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.079
<v Speaker 3>It was in the evening early morning hours.

1378
01:08:14.199 --> 01:08:18.279
<v Speaker 1>It was the early morning hours of January twenty fifth, okay, And.

1379
01:08:18.279 --> 01:08:21.399
<v Speaker 5>You had somebody that was learning underneath you, that was

1380
01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:24.600
<v Speaker 5>with you at that time, that's correct. And you went

1381
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:26.600
<v Speaker 5>into the various areas of the house. You went down

1382
01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:29.479
<v Speaker 5>to the basement, right, Yes, you talked about the stain

1383
01:08:29.560 --> 01:08:31.560
<v Speaker 5>that you had taken swaves of that was on the

1384
01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:32.439
<v Speaker 5>carpet down in the.

1385
01:08:32.359 --> 01:08:33.840
<v Speaker 3>Basement, right, that's correct.

1386
01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:36.359
<v Speaker 5>And you went upstairs and then ultimately you ended up

1387
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:40.840
<v Speaker 5>in the bedroom and you made observations of a number

1388
01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:44.560
<v Speaker 5>of blood drops or red brown as you put it,

1389
01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:45.960
<v Speaker 5>drops on the floor.

1390
01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:48.479
<v Speaker 1>Right, there were numerous red brown scenes on the floor. Yes,

1391
01:08:49.800 --> 01:08:52.319
<v Speaker 1>I did not believe I documented more bound scenes on

1392
01:08:52.359 --> 01:08:53.720
<v Speaker 1>the clothing and me been there. I don't know if

1393
01:08:53.720 --> 01:08:54.600
<v Speaker 1>I have that in my notes.

1394
01:08:54.720 --> 01:08:57.760
<v Speaker 5>How about the on top of the night stand, there

1395
01:08:57.800 --> 01:09:01.039
<v Speaker 5>was the knife the counsel had talked about. Yes, correct,

1396
01:09:01.319 --> 01:09:04.479
<v Speaker 5>And then you look at the window and there was

1397
01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:07.560
<v Speaker 5>a red brown stain on the right hand side of

1398
01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:11.720
<v Speaker 5>the window as you're looking outside from inside right.

1399
01:09:12.039 --> 01:09:14.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, correct, And uh, you made.

1400
01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:18.920
<v Speaker 5>Observations of some of the markings on the shingles that

1401
01:09:19.000 --> 01:09:24.079
<v Speaker 5>were directly below the window, directly above where the reds

1402
01:09:24.119 --> 01:09:25.000
<v Speaker 5>were found.

1403
01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:26.640
<v Speaker 3>In the snow underneath.

1404
01:09:26.920 --> 01:09:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's correct.

1405
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:29.720
<v Speaker 3>Your confirmatory tests.

1406
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:32.880
<v Speaker 5>And first of all, what you do is you you

1407
01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:36.000
<v Speaker 5>have your screening tests. Back in the day, they used

1408
01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:38.279
<v Speaker 5>to you know, you use the orthotoldyin and you.

1409
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:38.800
<v Speaker 3>Still use that.

1410
01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:41.680
<v Speaker 5>No, no, this time, now you use what crystalline?

1411
01:09:41.720 --> 01:09:42.159
<v Speaker 3>What do you use?

1412
01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:46.439
<v Speaker 5>It's called Mayer and the tessel Mayer basically, as I say,

1413
01:09:46.520 --> 01:09:48.199
<v Speaker 5>back in the day, it used to be that you

1414
01:09:48.520 --> 01:09:52.479
<v Speaker 5>would have vegetation that could give you a false positive.

1415
01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:55.880
<v Speaker 3>Right, correct. Certain chemicals could give you a false positive.

1416
01:09:56.119 --> 01:09:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Correct.

1417
01:09:56.600 --> 01:09:59.399
<v Speaker 5>Animal feces could give you a false positives.

1418
01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:01.479
<v Speaker 1>Right, depending on what's in them. Possibly.

1419
01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:05.079
<v Speaker 5>Yes, the test now that you have the confirmatory test

1420
01:10:05.159 --> 01:10:08.800
<v Speaker 5>is a lot more accurate, if you will, But still

1421
01:10:08.920 --> 01:10:13.439
<v Speaker 5>nevertheless I said, it's confirmatory screening. But Nevertheless, you still

1422
01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:16.479
<v Speaker 5>have to do a confirmatory test, right, that's correct. And

1423
01:10:16.520 --> 01:10:18.560
<v Speaker 5>back in the day it used to be tacking Yama tests.

1424
01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:21.079
<v Speaker 5>What do you do for confirmatory.

1425
01:10:20.399 --> 01:10:25.399
<v Speaker 1>Now we use a test card, a humanitates test card,

1426
01:10:25.439 --> 01:10:27.920
<v Speaker 1>which is something similar to a COVID test or a

1427
01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:30.640
<v Speaker 1>pregnancy test, where you just put the liquid in the

1428
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:32.720
<v Speaker 1>beginning of the card. The liquid runs up and if

1429
01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:35.479
<v Speaker 1>there's two lines, that's positive, and it's only one line

1430
01:10:35.520 --> 01:10:36.159
<v Speaker 1>it's negative.

1431
01:10:37.159 --> 01:10:39.439
<v Speaker 3>It's not the techmin test, is it.

1432
01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:39.880
<v Speaker 2>No?

1433
01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:42.960
<v Speaker 5>Okay, So the confirmatory tests that you use, that's a

1434
01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:43.840
<v Speaker 5>color test.

1435
01:10:43.640 --> 01:10:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Though right, it's a immunographic test. It's an essay, so

1436
01:10:48.720 --> 01:10:50.439
<v Speaker 1>it's not really a color test where you add the

1437
01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:52.399
<v Speaker 1>drops to the swab and it's going to change color.

1438
01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:57.439
<v Speaker 1>It's a reaction that's happening within the test card between

1439
01:10:57.479 --> 01:11:01.159
<v Speaker 1>antibodies and antigens that produce either two lines are one line.

1440
01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:06.079
<v Speaker 5>So let's take, for example, in the bedroom on the floor,

1441
01:11:06.199 --> 01:11:09.399
<v Speaker 5>the council had shown you a number of drops that

1442
01:11:09.399 --> 01:11:13.079
<v Speaker 5>were in the floor between the bed and that mirror.

1443
01:11:14.279 --> 01:11:16.199
<v Speaker 3>You did confirmatory testing on that.

1444
01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:18.920
<v Speaker 1>I did back at the lab. I screened it at

1445
01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:21.520
<v Speaker 1>the scene, and then I'm sorry, confirmed it back at.

1446
01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:23.760
<v Speaker 3>The lab, and that confirmed that it was human blood.

1447
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:26.439
<v Speaker 1>It confirms that it's blood, and it indicates human blood.

1448
01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:27.239
<v Speaker 2>There is cost.

1449
01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:31.039
<v Speaker 1>So the test card that we use indicates that it

1450
01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:35.199
<v Speaker 1>confirms that it's blood. It indicates human blood because it

1451
01:11:35.239 --> 01:11:40.399
<v Speaker 1>may react with primate blood, so it's not specific to

1452
01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:41.079
<v Speaker 1>human blood.

1453
01:11:43.000 --> 01:11:46.479
<v Speaker 5>Confirming that the stains that are on the floor of

1454
01:11:46.520 --> 01:11:49.840
<v Speaker 5>the bedroom, all the blood, all those stains iron in

1455
01:11:49.880 --> 01:11:50.640
<v Speaker 5>fact human blood.

1456
01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Right, I'm confirming the single stain that I collected from

1457
01:11:54.359 --> 01:11:55.319
<v Speaker 1>is blood, all right.

1458
01:11:55.359 --> 01:11:57.119
<v Speaker 5>And when you say the single stain, that would be

1459
01:11:57.159 --> 01:11:58.960
<v Speaker 5>a used the Q tip and you swab it, and

1460
01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:01.039
<v Speaker 5>that would be from all of these stains that were

1461
01:12:01.079 --> 01:12:02.720
<v Speaker 5>all over the place on the floor, right.

1462
01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:05.960
<v Speaker 1>I did not swab each individual stain. I took a

1463
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:08.319
<v Speaker 1>swab from each collection of scenes.

1464
01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:11.119
<v Speaker 5>Okay, And that was human blood, confirmatory indicating it was

1465
01:12:11.199 --> 01:12:11.720
<v Speaker 5>human right.

1466
01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:14.119
<v Speaker 1>It was confirmatory for blood and indicated human blood.

1467
01:12:14.199 --> 01:12:15.279
<v Speaker 3>All right. Now.

1468
01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:18.119
<v Speaker 5>One of the exhibits that the district attorney had pointed

1469
01:12:18.199 --> 01:12:19.039
<v Speaker 5>out was.

1470
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:27.800
<v Speaker 3>Mirror. There were one six one Do you remember that

1471
01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:28.439
<v Speaker 3>the mirror?

1472
01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:29.079
<v Speaker 1>Yes?

1473
01:12:29.079 --> 01:12:34.600
<v Speaker 5>I do you see those drops that appear to be

1474
01:12:34.720 --> 01:12:35.800
<v Speaker 5>going down.

1475
01:12:37.319 --> 01:12:39.800
<v Speaker 3>From above in a downward direction.

1476
01:12:42.840 --> 01:12:44.600
<v Speaker 1>I do see the red brown scenes, and yes, I

1477
01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:46.880
<v Speaker 1>performed a screening test on one of them at the scene.

1478
01:12:47.119 --> 01:12:51.840
<v Speaker 5>Okay, and you're again you're comfortable that that in fact

1479
01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:53.199
<v Speaker 5>is human blood.

1480
01:12:53.319 --> 01:12:56.039
<v Speaker 1>I did not perform confirmatory tests on that specific stain

1481
01:12:56.239 --> 01:12:58.039
<v Speaker 1>back at the lab, So I just screened it at

1482
01:12:58.079 --> 01:13:02.199
<v Speaker 1>the scene, and that stain was not tested any further

1483
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:05.239
<v Speaker 1>at that time. It was what I performed a screening

1484
01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:07.920
<v Speaker 1>test at the scene. I did not perform any confirmatory

1485
01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:09.800
<v Speaker 1>tests on that specific stain back at the lab.

1486
01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:13.520
<v Speaker 5>Well, there's no doubt that the stains that are depicted

1487
01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:16.439
<v Speaker 5>on the full length mirror that we can see in

1488
01:13:16.520 --> 01:13:19.720
<v Speaker 5>Exhibit one point sixty one, and the stains that were

1489
01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:22.840
<v Speaker 5>on the floor next to the bed, and the stains

1490
01:13:22.880 --> 01:13:25.000
<v Speaker 5>that were on the floor in front of the bed

1491
01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:28.119
<v Speaker 5>heading towards the door, all with the same consistency.

1492
01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:30.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, I did make it indetermination whether or not they

1493
01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:34.159
<v Speaker 1>were all the same consistency human blood. I did not

1494
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:36.319
<v Speaker 1>make a determination that they were human blood. So besent

1495
01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:39.000
<v Speaker 1>the scientific results, I cannot say that they were human blood.

1496
01:13:40.079 --> 01:13:43.560
<v Speaker 5>The substance that's on the floor and the substance that's

1497
01:13:43.600 --> 01:13:46.640
<v Speaker 5>in the mirror and the substance that's on the doorknob

1498
01:13:47.239 --> 01:13:50.000
<v Speaker 5>and the drops that are heading out of the bedroom,

1499
01:13:50.119 --> 01:13:54.359
<v Speaker 5>those in fact more probable than not would be human blood.

1500
01:13:54.439 --> 01:13:54.640
<v Speaker 3>Right.

1501
01:13:55.079 --> 01:13:58.359
<v Speaker 1>I do make certain assumptions based on the color of

1502
01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:00.640
<v Speaker 1>a stain, the size, the shape of the stain that

1503
01:14:00.680 --> 01:14:02.960
<v Speaker 1>I could potentially be blood, and that would would indicate

1504
01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:05.319
<v Speaker 1>what I might want to test further, So I don't

1505
01:14:05.319 --> 01:14:08.359
<v Speaker 1>make an assumption off the fact that it's going to

1506
01:14:08.359 --> 01:14:11.159
<v Speaker 1>be human blood. That's why we perform scientific testing to

1507
01:14:12.119 --> 01:14:14.119
<v Speaker 1>screen for blood and then to confirm its blood.

1508
01:14:14.760 --> 01:14:20.239
<v Speaker 5>Okay, so this year you indicated with some type of insulation.

1509
01:14:20.920 --> 01:14:22.920
<v Speaker 1>That's what appeared to me. I mean, I'm not an expert,

1510
01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:25.159
<v Speaker 1>but that's it looked like some sort of foam insulation

1511
01:14:25.680 --> 01:14:27.319
<v Speaker 1>and it's.

1512
01:14:27.199 --> 01:14:32.760
<v Speaker 3>A little difficult to see with it. Do that there?

1513
01:14:33.479 --> 01:14:36.920
<v Speaker 3>I love the little orange looks like a little balloon.

1514
01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:39.279
<v Speaker 5>But let's say it's installation, or let's say it's something

1515
01:14:39.319 --> 01:14:43.800
<v Speaker 5>for bugs. You see the red substance on that. I

1516
01:14:43.880 --> 01:14:47.479
<v Speaker 5>do see the red substance, red brown stain on that

1517
01:14:47.800 --> 01:14:49.159
<v Speaker 5>window ledge or window sill.

1518
01:14:49.399 --> 01:14:53.359
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I do you that I did not test that specific.

1519
01:14:52.920 --> 01:14:56.520
<v Speaker 3>Stain, now, ye, so do we know if that was blood?

1520
01:14:57.119 --> 01:15:03.319
<v Speaker 1>No, not at this time. Right, it appears to be

1521
01:15:03.359 --> 01:15:05.039
<v Speaker 1>a red brown stain on the X tire of the windowsill,

1522
01:15:05.079 --> 01:15:09.319
<v Speaker 1>but I did not do any testing on it, and.

1523
01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:11.159
<v Speaker 3>Did I hate it correctly that.

1524
01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:19.079
<v Speaker 5>It was five months later that the state police investigators

1525
01:15:19.119 --> 01:15:22.960
<v Speaker 5>decided that you would get the shingles off the house.

1526
01:15:23.560 --> 01:15:25.199
<v Speaker 1>I don't know when that decision was me, but that

1527
01:15:25.239 --> 01:15:26.920
<v Speaker 1>was the day that I was requested to go.

1528
01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:31.119
<v Speaker 5>Out and then the district attorney showed you the shingles

1529
01:15:31.119 --> 01:15:31.800
<v Speaker 5>and envelopes.

1530
01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:32.640
<v Speaker 3>You opened them up and.

1531
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:36.520
<v Speaker 5>Looked at them, and you did a confirmatory test on those.

1532
01:15:37.039 --> 01:15:39.119
<v Speaker 1>I did not. I performed a screening test on each

1533
01:15:39.159 --> 01:15:41.600
<v Speaker 1>of those scenes at the scene. I did not perform

1534
01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:43.880
<v Speaker 1>a confirmatory test on those scenes due to the fact

1535
01:15:43.880 --> 01:15:46.680
<v Speaker 1>that the red brown stain color was no longer visible,

1536
01:15:47.119 --> 01:15:52.039
<v Speaker 1>so potentially the because of the weather. Right, at some

1537
01:15:52.199 --> 01:15:55.920
<v Speaker 1>point the red brown stains appeared darker. They were no

1538
01:15:55.960 --> 01:15:58.760
<v Speaker 1>longer red browns, so I thought that the material could

1539
01:15:58.760 --> 01:16:01.600
<v Speaker 1>be less. I didn't want to use any additional material

1540
01:16:01.680 --> 01:16:02.800
<v Speaker 1>for confirmatory testing.

1541
01:16:03.119 --> 01:16:09.399
<v Speaker 5>School, as a chemist, you learn how to testify yes.

1542
01:16:09.600 --> 01:16:11.199
<v Speaker 5>One of the things they tell you is look at

1543
01:16:11.199 --> 01:16:14.479
<v Speaker 5>the jury when the lawyer asked a question, you look

1544
01:16:14.479 --> 01:16:16.039
<v Speaker 5>at the jury and you answer.

1545
01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:17.279
<v Speaker 1>The question that's correct.

1546
01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:19.079
<v Speaker 3>So can you just look at me.

1547
01:16:19.039 --> 01:16:21.760
<v Speaker 5>When I asked you just a little bit a question,

1548
01:16:22.399 --> 01:16:29.520
<v Speaker 5>would you agree that whether affects degrees.

1549
01:16:30.399 --> 01:16:31.359
<v Speaker 3>Blood if in.

1550
01:16:31.479 --> 01:16:35.720
<v Speaker 5>Fact it is on an object and allowed to stay outside?

1551
01:16:36.119 --> 01:16:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely?

1552
01:16:38.199 --> 01:16:44.000
<v Speaker 5>And then and then you'd agree with me that what

1553
01:16:44.079 --> 01:16:46.079
<v Speaker 5>you noted appeared to be dark?

1554
01:16:46.840 --> 01:16:50.039
<v Speaker 3>Yes, would almost be like back Gwano for that matter.

1555
01:16:50.159 --> 01:16:51.520
<v Speaker 3>We don't know what it is, right.

1556
01:16:52.720 --> 01:16:54.960
<v Speaker 1>No, I cannot make determination what it was like. I

1557
01:16:55.119 --> 01:16:57.239
<v Speaker 1>just performed a screening test, so I could not confirm

1558
01:16:57.279 --> 01:16:59.600
<v Speaker 1>it was blood. They just screamed positive for blood.

1559
01:17:01.239 --> 01:17:05.640
<v Speaker 5>Do you remember there was a red brown stain on

1560
01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:10.399
<v Speaker 5>the door of the bedroom from inside of the dead

1561
01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:11.279
<v Speaker 5>going out?

1562
01:17:11.600 --> 01:17:12.319
<v Speaker 3>Did you notice that?

1563
01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:15.840
<v Speaker 1>Potentially? I noticed it. I don't believe I didn't clutch

1564
01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:16.159
<v Speaker 1>from that.

1565
01:17:17.239 --> 01:17:20.279
<v Speaker 3>We don't know if that's play correct. And how about

1566
01:17:20.319 --> 01:17:23.159
<v Speaker 3>the drops, the red brown drops that were by the door,

1567
01:17:23.359 --> 01:17:26.960
<v Speaker 3>directly underneath the doorknob. Did you test those with your swaps?

1568
01:17:27.119 --> 01:17:27.239
<v Speaker 2>No?

1569
01:17:27.279 --> 01:17:32.439
<v Speaker 20>I did not totally right, caalthy redirected.

1570
01:17:33.039 --> 01:17:35.560
<v Speaker 2>You were attempting to explain why you did not perform

1571
01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:38.600
<v Speaker 2>confirmatory testing on the shingles. Can you explain that to

1572
01:17:38.640 --> 01:17:39.479
<v Speaker 2>the drinks.

1573
01:17:40.680 --> 01:17:42.560
<v Speaker 1>Because I can no longer see the red brown stain,

1574
01:17:42.640 --> 01:17:44.600
<v Speaker 1>it just appeared more of a darker scene, a lighter

1575
01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:47.359
<v Speaker 1>sain that I preesously saw at the scene. Given that

1576
01:17:47.359 --> 01:17:49.880
<v Speaker 1>that material, whatever it was, on the shingle may have

1577
01:17:49.880 --> 01:17:54.039
<v Speaker 1>been limited, using performing confirmatory tests is using up additional

1578
01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:57.600
<v Speaker 1>material to perform that test. So, given that was already

1579
01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:01.479
<v Speaker 1>potentially limited due to the nditions and the time that

1580
01:18:01.520 --> 01:18:02.880
<v Speaker 1>had passed, and the fact that I can no longer

1581
01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:05.680
<v Speaker 1>see the red brown stain, I simply performed the screening test,

1582
01:18:05.720 --> 01:18:07.800
<v Speaker 1>and once that was positive, I took a swab and

1583
01:18:07.880 --> 01:18:10.000
<v Speaker 1>just preserved it. I did not perform any more testing

1584
01:18:10.000 --> 01:18:11.039
<v Speaker 1>in a lab on that swab.

1585
01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:14.119
<v Speaker 2>And is that because you would need something to forward

1586
01:18:14.159 --> 01:18:16.439
<v Speaker 2>onto DNA if you wanted additional.

1587
01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:18.399
<v Speaker 1>Testing to be done, correct, I would have had to

1588
01:18:18.479 --> 01:18:20.600
<v Speaker 1>use up a portion of that sample to perform the

1589
01:18:20.600 --> 01:18:24.680
<v Speaker 1>confirmatory tests. And I didn't think that that was in

1590
01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:26.439
<v Speaker 1>the best interests of the case, given the fact that

1591
01:18:26.479 --> 01:18:30.239
<v Speaker 1>the material may already have been limited, And.

1592
01:18:30.159 --> 01:18:36.640
<v Speaker 2>You indicated that you had previously seen those red brown

1593
01:18:36.720 --> 01:18:40.159
<v Speaker 2>stains in those same areas that you swabbed, and the

1594
01:18:40.199 --> 01:18:42.640
<v Speaker 2>shingles were collected back in January.

1595
01:18:42.680 --> 01:18:45.199
<v Speaker 1>Correct, that's correct.

1596
01:18:45.800 --> 01:18:58.359
<v Speaker 16>Anything further all right, thank you, thank you, right, good morning, sir, Yes, council.

1597
01:18:58.279 --> 01:19:01.800
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Could you please tell the journey your first

1598
01:19:01.840 --> 01:19:02.439
<v Speaker 2>and last name.

1599
01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:05.399
<v Speaker 18>Yes, my first name is Jonathan. My last name is O'Laughlin.

1600
01:19:05.520 --> 01:19:07.239
<v Speaker 2>And can you spell your last name for the record?

1601
01:19:07.479 --> 01:19:10.239
<v Speaker 3>O l ou G H l I N.

1602
01:19:10.880 --> 01:19:12.439
<v Speaker 2>And what do you do for work?

1603
01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:14.760
<v Speaker 18>I'm a trooper with the Massachusett of State Police.

1604
01:19:14.920 --> 01:19:16.079
<v Speaker 2>How long have you been a trooper?

1605
01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:18.600
<v Speaker 18>Hired in October of twenty eleven.

1606
01:19:19.279 --> 01:19:22.800
<v Speaker 2>And what is your current assignment with the state Police Right.

1607
01:19:22.680 --> 01:19:24.479
<v Speaker 18>Now, I work in the Division and Field Services and

1608
01:19:24.520 --> 01:19:27.640
<v Speaker 18>I'm assigned to the State Police Logan Airport Barracks.

1609
01:19:28.479 --> 01:19:32.199
<v Speaker 2>Going back to January of twenty twenty three, what was

1610
01:19:32.239 --> 01:19:33.520
<v Speaker 2>your assignment with the state Police?

1611
01:19:33.560 --> 01:19:33.720
<v Speaker 3>Then?

1612
01:19:34.119 --> 01:19:35.680
<v Speaker 18>I worked in crime Scene Services section?

1613
01:19:36.680 --> 01:19:40.159
<v Speaker 2>And how long have you worked in crime scene Services?

1614
01:19:40.319 --> 01:19:44.159
<v Speaker 18>I started in February of twenty twenty And.

1615
01:19:44.319 --> 01:19:46.920
<v Speaker 2>When did you move to your new assignment?

1616
01:19:47.880 --> 01:19:51.279
<v Speaker 18>I left crime scene in October of twenty twenty three.

1617
01:19:52.439 --> 01:19:54.199
<v Speaker 8>So do you.

1618
01:19:54.319 --> 01:19:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Undergo specific training as a trooper to work in that

1619
01:19:57.680 --> 01:19:58.960
<v Speaker 2>crime scene services section?

1620
01:19:59.319 --> 01:19:59.600
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1621
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:01.359
<v Speaker 2>What kind of training do you get?

1622
01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:05.199
<v Speaker 18>So we did internal training in the lab, the crime lab.

1623
01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:07.720
<v Speaker 18>A lot of it was the beginning was reading about

1624
01:20:07.840 --> 01:20:10.800
<v Speaker 18>crime scene processing and fingerprinting, and then it would move

1625
01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:15.239
<v Speaker 18>on to doing mock cases, following other crime scene Services

1626
01:20:15.279 --> 01:20:18.439
<v Speaker 18>members around to observe, and then it went on to

1627
01:20:18.479 --> 01:20:22.399
<v Speaker 18>do a competency test where you would process a mock scene,

1628
01:20:22.920 --> 01:20:24.520
<v Speaker 18>develop fingerprints.

1629
01:20:24.119 --> 01:20:25.239
<v Speaker 3>And analyze them.

1630
01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:27.520
<v Speaker 18>It kind of pulled it all together, and then that

1631
01:20:27.560 --> 01:20:30.520
<v Speaker 18>would go on to a quality assurance program within the

1632
01:20:30.600 --> 01:20:33.520
<v Speaker 18>lab and they would determine if you were qualified to

1633
01:20:34.319 --> 01:20:36.680
<v Speaker 18>be on call.

1634
01:20:35.800 --> 01:20:38.720
<v Speaker 2>And other What things do you do as a crime

1635
01:20:38.760 --> 01:20:41.600
<v Speaker 2>scene Services trooper? What are your responsibilities?

1636
01:20:41.720 --> 01:20:44.159
<v Speaker 18>So we respond to all different types of crime scenes.

1637
01:20:44.880 --> 01:20:47.319
<v Speaker 18>At every single crime scene. The main thing you do

1638
01:20:47.560 --> 01:20:49.840
<v Speaker 18>at every scene, no matter what it is, is document

1639
01:20:49.840 --> 01:20:53.199
<v Speaker 18>the scene with photographs. Depending on the type of scene

1640
01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:56.119
<v Speaker 18>you're at, you may also document the scene with video.

1641
01:20:57.520 --> 01:21:01.239
<v Speaker 18>You may also sketch the scene by hand, and then

1642
01:21:01.279 --> 01:21:04.159
<v Speaker 18>also you may collect items of evidence to be processed

1643
01:21:04.199 --> 01:21:06.600
<v Speaker 18>later or you may even process items at the scene.

1644
01:21:07.800 --> 01:21:11.279
<v Speaker 18>What you're processing for is fingerprints. You try to develop

1645
01:21:11.279 --> 01:21:14.479
<v Speaker 18>fingerprints if there are any you can do fingerprint analysis

1646
01:21:14.479 --> 01:21:17.079
<v Speaker 18>and try to determine whose fingerprints are on the items

1647
01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:18.039
<v Speaker 18>of evidence.

1648
01:21:18.079 --> 01:21:19.760
<v Speaker 2>And that can be done at a crime scene, but

1649
01:21:19.800 --> 01:21:22.319
<v Speaker 2>it also can be done back at the crime laboratory

1650
01:21:22.359 --> 01:21:26.199
<v Speaker 2>correct correct, depending on the item and where it was located.

1651
01:21:26.600 --> 01:21:26.920
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

1652
01:21:28.319 --> 01:21:33.680
<v Speaker 2>As far as your response to particular scenes, do you

1653
01:21:33.760 --> 01:21:37.199
<v Speaker 2>often go out to crime scenes in tandem with or

1654
01:21:37.239 --> 01:21:42.960
<v Speaker 2>with a crime scene response unit investigator scientist. Yes, And

1655
01:21:43.159 --> 01:21:45.920
<v Speaker 2>you indicated that one of the first things and one

1656
01:21:45.960 --> 01:21:48.640
<v Speaker 2>of the main things you do is document scenes. Is

1657
01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:50.880
<v Speaker 2>it best practice to be kind of that first in

1658
01:21:51.199 --> 01:21:53.479
<v Speaker 2>after a scene is secured, to document the scene as

1659
01:21:53.520 --> 01:21:56.119
<v Speaker 2>it appeared. Yes, And how do you do that?

1660
01:21:56.960 --> 01:22:00.319
<v Speaker 18>So when you respond to a scene, usually the that

1661
01:22:00.359 --> 01:22:03.399
<v Speaker 18>you respond to, the local police department will secure the scene,

1662
01:22:03.560 --> 01:22:05.680
<v Speaker 18>which means they don't allow anyone in to disrupt the

1663
01:22:05.680 --> 01:22:09.239
<v Speaker 18>scene until you get there. Then you start with photographing

1664
01:22:10.199 --> 01:22:13.119
<v Speaker 18>the exterior of the residents, and then you walk in

1665
01:22:13.159 --> 01:22:16.079
<v Speaker 18>and just document the entire scene, room by room as

1666
01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:16.960
<v Speaker 18>it is.

1667
01:22:17.840 --> 01:22:20.640
<v Speaker 2>And after that's done, do you kind of go back

1668
01:22:20.720 --> 01:22:24.960
<v Speaker 2>through and highlight or identify in any way on particular

1669
01:22:25.039 --> 01:22:28.720
<v Speaker 2>things that may be relevant to the investigation. Yes, the

1670
01:22:28.720 --> 01:22:31.760
<v Speaker 2>crime scene you're responding to, Yes, And how do you

1671
01:22:31.960 --> 01:22:38.039
<v Speaker 2>identify in the documentation items that might have some relevance

1672
01:22:38.119 --> 01:22:39.319
<v Speaker 2>or evidence your value.

1673
01:22:39.520 --> 01:22:42.319
<v Speaker 18>So some items might kind of be obvious that they're

1674
01:22:42.359 --> 01:22:45.199
<v Speaker 18>involved in the crime, that are still there, those you

1675
01:22:45.239 --> 01:22:49.239
<v Speaker 18>want to document further. And sometimes a detective.

1676
01:22:50.279 --> 01:22:51.239
<v Speaker 3>Detective unit or.

1677
01:22:51.199 --> 01:22:55.439
<v Speaker 18>A member will ask you to document another piece of

1678
01:22:55.479 --> 01:22:58.479
<v Speaker 18>evidence that they would like collected or they would like

1679
01:22:58.520 --> 01:22:59.920
<v Speaker 18>further looked at.

1680
01:23:00.319 --> 01:23:03.880
<v Speaker 2>And you indicated that with crime scene services you respond

1681
01:23:03.880 --> 01:23:07.479
<v Speaker 2>to all different kinds of scenes and all different types

1682
01:23:07.479 --> 01:23:10.199
<v Speaker 2>of law enforcement. So sometimes do you work with the

1683
01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:16.039
<v Speaker 2>local city or town departments. Yes, And in investigations where

1684
01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:19.079
<v Speaker 2>a death has occurred, who are the primary law enforcement

1685
01:23:19.079 --> 01:23:19.840
<v Speaker 2>that you're working with?

1686
01:23:20.720 --> 01:23:22.920
<v Speaker 18>So they will be local and there will also be

1687
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:26.880
<v Speaker 18>the county stay police detective unit will also respond for

1688
01:23:26.920 --> 01:23:28.000
<v Speaker 18>any death investigation.

1689
01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Now, when you are processing a scene or documenting a scene,

1690
01:23:32.920 --> 01:23:37.079
<v Speaker 2>do you do anything to identify and highlight the items

1691
01:23:37.159 --> 01:23:39.239
<v Speaker 2>that have been either pointed out to you or that

1692
01:23:39.319 --> 01:23:41.680
<v Speaker 2>you've seen that could have value in the case.

1693
01:23:42.039 --> 01:23:43.560
<v Speaker 3>Yes, what do you do? So?

1694
01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:46.720
<v Speaker 18>But those we put what's called placards, and placards are

1695
01:23:46.720 --> 01:23:47.920
<v Speaker 18>pieces of plastic.

1696
01:23:47.680 --> 01:23:49.239
<v Speaker 3>That have numbers on them.

1697
01:23:49.399 --> 01:23:51.680
<v Speaker 18>That way, when you're going through the photos, you can

1698
01:23:51.760 --> 01:23:54.600
<v Speaker 18>refer to them as placard. One placard two and so

1699
01:23:54.640 --> 01:23:55.760
<v Speaker 18>on and so forth.

1700
01:23:55.920 --> 01:23:59.359
<v Speaker 2>And as far as further processing the scene between yourself

1701
01:23:59.439 --> 01:24:03.800
<v Speaker 2>and the crime scene response are some items sometimes collected

1702
01:24:04.039 --> 01:24:06.600
<v Speaker 2>by either yourself or the crime scene response unit?

1703
01:24:06.920 --> 01:24:08.039
<v Speaker 3>Yes, And when you.

1704
01:24:08.079 --> 01:24:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Collect an item, do you identify it in some other way? Yes.

1705
01:24:12.279 --> 01:24:14.640
<v Speaker 18>When you collect an item and there it's put into

1706
01:24:14.640 --> 01:24:15.920
<v Speaker 18>evidence in the lab.

1707
01:24:16.399 --> 01:24:17.960
<v Speaker 3>It's given a lab number.

1708
01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:21.199
<v Speaker 18>The lab number doesn't doesn't match up, doesn't have to

1709
01:24:21.239 --> 01:24:24.159
<v Speaker 18>match up with the platcard number. The PLAT cards simply

1710
01:24:24.319 --> 01:24:26.399
<v Speaker 18>for your photos. And then the lab number is the

1711
01:24:26.439 --> 01:24:29.039
<v Speaker 18>number that will be associated with that piece of evidence

1712
01:24:29.399 --> 01:24:33.159
<v Speaker 18>all through the crime lab procedure process, all the way

1713
01:24:33.159 --> 01:24:33.720
<v Speaker 18>through the trial.

1714
01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:38.199
<v Speaker 2>And when you go to crime scenes for inside houses,

1715
01:24:38.239 --> 01:24:41.920
<v Speaker 2>for instance, is it oftentimes the case that your processing

1716
01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:44.960
<v Speaker 2>the crime scene at the same time investigators are getting

1717
01:24:44.960 --> 01:24:47.239
<v Speaker 2>into a location with a search for it.

1718
01:24:47.680 --> 01:24:47.960
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

1719
01:24:48.479 --> 01:24:52.239
<v Speaker 2>And so when that's the circumstance, do you photograph and

1720
01:24:52.319 --> 01:24:53.960
<v Speaker 2>document everything that you can?

1721
01:24:55.720 --> 01:24:57.600
<v Speaker 18>I'm sorry, can you sure I can put that?

1722
01:24:57.600 --> 01:25:01.159
<v Speaker 2>That's a bad question. When you are with kind of

1723
01:25:01.199 --> 01:25:05.000
<v Speaker 2>the local law enforcement, do you document things oftentimes that

1724
01:25:05.119 --> 01:25:07.199
<v Speaker 2>maybe you don't collect and take back to the lab

1725
01:25:07.359 --> 01:25:10.520
<v Speaker 2>or the forensic scientist doesn't but might have value or

1726
01:25:10.560 --> 01:25:14.840
<v Speaker 2>relevance to the police. Yes, and in those instances, they're

1727
01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:16.560
<v Speaker 2>not assigned to those same item numbers.

1728
01:25:16.560 --> 01:25:16.920
<v Speaker 8>Correct.

1729
01:25:17.199 --> 01:25:17.600
<v Speaker 3>Correct.

1730
01:25:18.720 --> 01:25:21.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to draw your attention to January twenty fourth

1731
01:25:21.520 --> 01:25:25.680
<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty three. Do you recall going or being

1732
01:25:25.680 --> 01:25:28.520
<v Speaker 2>called out to forty seven Summer Street in Duxbury.

1733
01:25:28.800 --> 01:25:29.319
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I do.

1734
01:25:29.560 --> 01:25:32.239
<v Speaker 2>And what was your role on that scene?

1735
01:25:32.840 --> 01:25:37.159
<v Speaker 18>So the role was was Plymouth State Police Detective unit

1736
01:25:37.239 --> 01:25:39.880
<v Speaker 18>have been called out to what was reported as a

1737
01:25:39.880 --> 01:25:43.199
<v Speaker 18>homicide at that address, So we were called out to

1738
01:25:43.560 --> 01:25:47.520
<v Speaker 18>document the scene and collect any items of evidence that

1739
01:25:47.680 --> 01:25:48.760
<v Speaker 18>needed to be processed.

1740
01:25:49.079 --> 01:25:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Now in relation to this particular investigation. When you arrived there,

1741
01:25:52.880 --> 01:25:56.119
<v Speaker 2>had the State Police and the Duxbury Police already secured

1742
01:25:56.119 --> 01:26:00.079
<v Speaker 2>the home. Yes, And again in this situation where you

1743
01:26:00.079 --> 01:26:02.800
<v Speaker 2>you arriving and going into the home at the same

1744
01:26:02.800 --> 01:26:05.439
<v Speaker 2>time that a search warrant was being executed.

1745
01:26:05.359 --> 01:26:08.039
<v Speaker 18>Yes, we waited for the search warrant to be signed,

1746
01:26:08.880 --> 01:26:12.239
<v Speaker 18>brought to the scene, and then photographed the search warrant,

1747
01:26:12.279 --> 01:26:16.039
<v Speaker 18>and then we started documenting the scene.

1748
01:26:16.920 --> 01:26:19.399
<v Speaker 2>And fair to say, in this case, there were a

1749
01:26:19.479 --> 01:26:26.359
<v Speaker 2>number of items that were identified by your unit by

1750
01:26:26.399 --> 01:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>the placards.

1751
01:26:27.680 --> 01:26:31.119
<v Speaker 9>Yes, and.

1752
01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:38.479
<v Speaker 2>If I if I tell you that you documented eight

1753
01:26:38.560 --> 01:26:42.119
<v Speaker 2>specific placards at the crime scene on that particular day,

1754
01:26:42.119 --> 01:26:43.039
<v Speaker 2>does that sound about right?

1755
01:26:43.279 --> 01:26:44.319
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1756
01:26:43.520 --> 01:26:48.680
<v Speaker 2>It does, okay, including a brown belt, some exercise bands,

1757
01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:52.720
<v Speaker 2>three in particular, a pair of red pajamas, a pink

1758
01:26:53.680 --> 01:26:59.319
<v Speaker 2>sweatshirt or a robe, a pink piece of clothing, a

1759
01:26:59.399 --> 01:27:03.159
<v Speaker 2>knife with black handle, and a phone. Yes, sound right,

1760
01:27:03.279 --> 01:27:05.920
<v Speaker 2>it does. And I will go through each and every

1761
01:27:06.399 --> 01:27:10.880
<v Speaker 2>item because we've seen several of those items before, but

1762
01:27:12.079 --> 01:27:19.720
<v Speaker 2>just in particular as it relates to placards seven and eight.

1763
01:27:19.880 --> 01:27:22.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm just gonna ask you to take a look at

1764
01:27:22.439 --> 01:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>some photos.

1765
01:27:23.000 --> 01:27:25.000
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Okay, So I'm.

1766
01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:28.039
<v Speaker 2>Showing you a photograph of placard seven. Is that familiar

1767
01:27:28.079 --> 01:27:28.319
<v Speaker 2>to you?

1768
01:27:28.600 --> 01:27:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1769
01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:31.439
<v Speaker 2>And what is the placard seven? What was that to

1770
01:27:31.880 --> 01:27:32.800
<v Speaker 2>highlight or depict?

1771
01:27:33.399 --> 01:27:35.720
<v Speaker 18>That was a knife covering a red brown stain found

1772
01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:40.159
<v Speaker 18>in the upstairs master bedroom, that.

1773
01:27:40.239 --> 01:27:41.000
<v Speaker 4>May be admitted.

1774
01:27:42.840 --> 01:27:48.720
<v Speaker 2>And I'm showing you another photograph with depicting placard number eight.

1775
01:27:48.760 --> 01:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>Is that familiar to you?

1776
01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:50.239
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1777
01:27:50.560 --> 01:27:53.079
<v Speaker 2>And that was a cell phone that was also noted

1778
01:27:53.199 --> 01:27:56.239
<v Speaker 2>in your documentation of the scene.

1779
01:27:55.960 --> 01:28:00.840
<v Speaker 4>Correct, yes, ap admitted.

1780
01:28:02.000 --> 01:28:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Now, as far as collecting of particular items on this scene.

1781
01:28:07.840 --> 01:28:12.279
<v Speaker 2>You're aware that there were several of the placarded items

1782
01:28:12.319 --> 01:28:16.680
<v Speaker 2>that were collected by crime scene services for to take

1783
01:28:16.720 --> 01:28:21.119
<v Speaker 2>back to the lab. Yes, and fair to say, the

1784
01:28:22.079 --> 01:28:25.600
<v Speaker 2>yellow exercise band at placard number two, the black exercise

1785
01:28:25.680 --> 01:28:29.600
<v Speaker 2>band at placard number three, the blue exercise band at

1786
01:28:29.640 --> 01:28:33.520
<v Speaker 2>placard number four, the red pajamas, and the silver knife

1787
01:28:33.560 --> 01:28:35.119
<v Speaker 2>of the black handle were all collected.

1788
01:28:35.880 --> 01:28:40.279
<v Speaker 18>Yes, I believe the red pajamas were collected by the

1789
01:28:40.279 --> 01:28:41.199
<v Speaker 18>crime scene response.

1790
01:28:42.479 --> 01:28:47.399
<v Speaker 2>It okay, do you recall collecting the knife?

1791
01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:48.039
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1792
01:28:48.279 --> 01:28:50.039
<v Speaker 2>Why would you collect the knife as part of the

1793
01:28:50.039 --> 01:28:52.119
<v Speaker 2>crime scene response or excuse me.

1794
01:28:52.119 --> 01:28:57.479
<v Speaker 4>There's no objection to any of this, and so I'll

1795
01:28:57.600 --> 01:28:59.359
<v Speaker 4>allow this line of ink. We just to kind of

1796
01:28:59.359 --> 01:29:00.399
<v Speaker 4>put things in respect.

1797
01:29:00.399 --> 01:29:04.359
<v Speaker 2>You good, thank you. Why would you collect the knife

1798
01:29:04.399 --> 01:29:06.560
<v Speaker 2>as part of the crime scene services as opposed to

1799
01:29:06.600 --> 01:29:07.640
<v Speaker 2>the crime scene response?

1800
01:29:08.239 --> 01:29:10.199
<v Speaker 18>So we would collect a knife because that would be

1801
01:29:10.199 --> 01:29:13.560
<v Speaker 18>an item that would be processed for fingerprints at the lab.

1802
01:29:13.920 --> 01:29:17.039
<v Speaker 2>And based on your training and experience, a fingerprint analysis

1803
01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:21.800
<v Speaker 2>is that something that should happen before any other biological testing?

1804
01:29:22.159 --> 01:29:22.439
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1805
01:29:22.600 --> 01:29:23.359
<v Speaker 2>And why is that?

1806
01:29:23.600 --> 01:29:23.680
<v Speaker 3>So?

1807
01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:28.319
<v Speaker 18>Fingerprints are extremely fragile, anything that the forensic scientists would

1808
01:29:28.319 --> 01:29:32.159
<v Speaker 18>do would destroy any fingerprints that may or may not

1809
01:29:32.199 --> 01:29:34.039
<v Speaker 18>be that may be on an item of evidence.

1810
01:29:34.800 --> 01:29:36.520
<v Speaker 2>And so I'm just going to approach and show you

1811
01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:39.359
<v Speaker 2>an item. Is that item familiar to you?

1812
01:29:39.680 --> 01:29:39.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1813
01:29:40.319 --> 01:29:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Is that the knife that you collected that was located

1814
01:29:42.920 --> 01:29:44.000
<v Speaker 2>at black for number seven?

1815
01:29:44.199 --> 01:29:45.159
<v Speaker 3>Yes? Thank you.

1816
01:29:46.399 --> 01:29:51.800
<v Speaker 2>That may be admitted now that knife was brought back

1817
01:29:51.840 --> 01:29:53.319
<v Speaker 2>to the crime lab to your unit.

1818
01:29:53.640 --> 01:29:53.960
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

1819
01:29:54.399 --> 01:29:57.239
<v Speaker 2>And in addition to the knife, did you also bring

1820
01:29:57.319 --> 01:30:02.840
<v Speaker 2>back the exercise bands yes. As far as your analysis

1821
01:30:03.039 --> 01:30:08.000
<v Speaker 2>of those items for fingerprints, what did you do to

1822
01:30:08.039 --> 01:30:10.079
<v Speaker 2>try to identify if there were anything on them?

1823
01:30:10.920 --> 01:30:14.000
<v Speaker 18>So when we're examining for fingerprints, we're looking for latent prints,

1824
01:30:14.159 --> 01:30:17.439
<v Speaker 18>which are fingerprints that aren't necessarily visible to the naked eye.

1825
01:30:17.800 --> 01:30:20.279
<v Speaker 18>Therefore chemicals must be applied to bring it out to

1826
01:30:20.279 --> 01:30:24.319
<v Speaker 18>make them visible. Those are non porous items, So for

1827
01:30:24.359 --> 01:30:27.640
<v Speaker 18>those we would use it's commonly referred to what was

1828
01:30:27.720 --> 01:30:32.239
<v Speaker 18>cyano accolade esther it's more commonly known as super glue,

1829
01:30:32.760 --> 01:30:34.600
<v Speaker 18>and we put them in a chamber with the super glue.

1830
01:30:34.680 --> 01:30:39.239
<v Speaker 18>The super glue is is heated. There's water, so there's

1831
01:30:39.319 --> 01:30:43.279
<v Speaker 18>humidity in this chamber. The entire chamber fills with supergroup fume,

1832
01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:49.119
<v Speaker 18>super glue fume, So it's adheres to anything fingerprint related

1833
01:30:49.159 --> 01:30:53.600
<v Speaker 18>on those items. Once the chamber is cleared of the fumes,

1834
01:30:53.720 --> 01:30:55.720
<v Speaker 18>you open it and then you can now see if

1835
01:30:55.760 --> 01:30:57.239
<v Speaker 18>there are any fingerprints on there.

1836
01:30:58.880 --> 01:30:59.159
<v Speaker 8>Okay.

1837
01:30:59.159 --> 01:31:01.680
<v Speaker 2>And is it fair to say that when you touch

1838
01:31:01.720 --> 01:31:05.399
<v Speaker 2>an item and like leave some remnants of a fingerprint,

1839
01:31:05.439 --> 01:31:08.119
<v Speaker 2>it's your the oils and everything that are on your

1840
01:31:08.239 --> 01:31:10.239
<v Speaker 2>finger that leave the impression on the item.

1841
01:31:10.760 --> 01:31:11.079
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

1842
01:31:11.560 --> 01:31:15.880
<v Speaker 2>And so are there things that can affect whether you

1843
01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>actually get enough information to analyze a fingerprint?

1844
01:31:19.840 --> 01:31:20.119
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

1845
01:31:20.319 --> 01:31:22.239
<v Speaker 2>What kinds of things can influence that?

1846
01:31:22.680 --> 01:31:25.800
<v Speaker 18>So it could be the texture of the actual object itself.

1847
01:31:26.800 --> 01:31:31.159
<v Speaker 18>It could also be environmental factors. There's low humidity, could

1848
01:31:31.159 --> 01:31:34.159
<v Speaker 18>be if there's the person touching the item might not

1849
01:31:34.199 --> 01:31:37.199
<v Speaker 18>have residue on their on their hands. There's also movement

1850
01:31:37.560 --> 01:31:43.720
<v Speaker 18>can affect fingerprints. The strength the grip on an item

1851
01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:46.239
<v Speaker 18>also affects as well as they could be wiped off

1852
01:31:46.239 --> 01:31:49.199
<v Speaker 18>because fingerprints, like you said, are very very very fragile.

1853
01:31:49.520 --> 01:31:49.880
<v Speaker 8>Okay.

1854
01:31:49.960 --> 01:31:53.600
<v Speaker 2>And so is it oftentimes the case that you analyze

1855
01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:56.520
<v Speaker 2>for a print and don't find anything of value. Yes,

1856
01:31:57.159 --> 01:32:00.439
<v Speaker 2>And so as it pertains to these items that you viewed,

1857
01:32:00.600 --> 01:32:03.920
<v Speaker 2>the knife the exercise bands. Can you tell us what

1858
01:32:03.960 --> 01:32:07.239
<v Speaker 2>your findings were when it came to the knife.

1859
01:32:07.880 --> 01:32:11.960
<v Speaker 18>Yes, the knife did have limited detail, meaning that there

1860
01:32:12.279 --> 01:32:18.720
<v Speaker 18>there were areas of friction ridge impressions, which is referred

1861
01:32:18.760 --> 01:32:22.960
<v Speaker 18>that's what we've referred to fingerprints is the friction ridge

1862
01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:25.760
<v Speaker 18>skin is the skin that covers your palms and your fingers,

1863
01:32:25.800 --> 01:32:29.319
<v Speaker 18>and your toes and your feet. The friction ridge skin

1864
01:32:29.520 --> 01:32:32.560
<v Speaker 18>is what leaves the impression on an object. So there

1865
01:32:32.600 --> 01:32:35.640
<v Speaker 18>was there were there wasn't an area of friction ridge

1866
01:32:35.680 --> 01:32:39.279
<v Speaker 18>impression on that knife, so it was photographed further and

1867
01:32:39.279 --> 01:32:42.680
<v Speaker 18>giving an item number upon further analysis, there was not

1868
01:32:42.880 --> 01:32:46.239
<v Speaker 18>enough detail to do a comparison.

1869
01:32:46.640 --> 01:32:49.279
<v Speaker 2>So when you photograph it for further analysis, why do

1870
01:32:49.319 --> 01:32:49.800
<v Speaker 2>you do that?

1871
01:32:50.640 --> 01:32:52.840
<v Speaker 18>Do that in order to take a deeper look to

1872
01:32:53.039 --> 01:32:56.880
<v Speaker 18>see if if there was there was enough characteristics or

1873
01:32:56.880 --> 01:32:59.439
<v Speaker 18>minutia to do a comparison to a known print.

1874
01:33:00.119 --> 01:33:02.239
<v Speaker 2>With a photograph, you can enhance it and look at

1875
01:33:02.279 --> 01:33:06.199
<v Speaker 2>it closer. Correct correct, But after doing that, were you

1876
01:33:06.239 --> 01:33:10.439
<v Speaker 2>able to make any sort of opinions about that area

1877
01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:11.359
<v Speaker 2>and the knife?

1878
01:33:11.880 --> 01:33:15.199
<v Speaker 18>Yes, there was not enough characteristics or maneution to do

1879
01:33:15.239 --> 01:33:18.439
<v Speaker 18>any comparison, so it was deemed no value.

1880
01:33:19.319 --> 01:33:22.399
<v Speaker 2>And as far as the exercise bands, fair to say,

1881
01:33:22.439 --> 01:33:25.520
<v Speaker 2>you also did the same and examine those to try

1882
01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:28.600
<v Speaker 2>to identify if they had any friction, rich detail, or

1883
01:33:29.079 --> 01:33:32.600
<v Speaker 2>anything of value that you could conduct a comparison on. Right, Yes,

1884
01:33:32.760 --> 01:33:37.159
<v Speaker 2>and was there any on either either the yellow band,

1885
01:33:37.279 --> 01:33:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the black band, or the blue band.

1886
01:33:39.199 --> 01:33:41.800
<v Speaker 3>No, there was not enough to do no value.

1887
01:33:42.119 --> 01:33:46.439
<v Speaker 2>And after you're done looking for these delicate fingerprints, what

1888
01:33:46.479 --> 01:33:48.560
<v Speaker 2>do you do with the items next?

1889
01:33:48.960 --> 01:33:51.199
<v Speaker 18>So the ends are repackaged and they moved on to

1890
01:33:51.239 --> 01:33:54.720
<v Speaker 18>the forensic scientists to do their testing, and.

1891
01:33:55.680 --> 01:33:58.239
<v Speaker 2>Usually that's the criminalistics unit first. Correct.

1892
01:33:58.680 --> 01:33:58.960
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

1893
01:34:00.840 --> 01:34:04.840
<v Speaker 2>Now, in this particular case, as we discussed, you were

1894
01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:11.079
<v Speaker 2>also documenting as state police were executing a search warrant. Correct, Yes,

1895
01:34:11.560 --> 01:34:16.000
<v Speaker 2>and you did that again with additional photographs. Yes, I'm

1896
01:34:16.039 --> 01:34:20.319
<v Speaker 2>just going to show you a couple photographs, if that's okay,

1897
01:34:20.560 --> 01:34:24.279
<v Speaker 2>the three photographs. That's the first one. It's a little

1898
01:34:24.279 --> 01:34:26.439
<v Speaker 2>hard to see. What do you see an item depicted

1899
01:34:26.479 --> 01:34:26.960
<v Speaker 2>in there?

1900
01:34:28.479 --> 01:34:37.000
<v Speaker 3>Square? Item? I'm sorry, were exactly do you well?

1901
01:34:37.000 --> 01:34:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Do you do you see that this photograph a little

1902
01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:43.000
<v Speaker 2>washed out, but it depicts an area of the.

1903
01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:47.279
<v Speaker 3>Home, yes, or an item in the home. Yes, yes, yes,

1904
01:34:47.720 --> 01:34:48.319
<v Speaker 3>the dress.

1905
01:34:49.159 --> 01:34:52.920
<v Speaker 2>And then I have another photograph with a drawer open.

1906
01:34:53.000 --> 01:34:56.159
<v Speaker 2>Is that familiar to you? And then a third one

1907
01:34:57.239 --> 01:35:00.560
<v Speaker 2>with an action item pulled out? Yes, and fair to

1908
01:35:00.600 --> 01:35:04.279
<v Speaker 2>say you when you're photographing things as they are found,

1909
01:35:04.600 --> 01:35:08.439
<v Speaker 2>you photograph where it comes from as it's being examined,

1910
01:35:08.520 --> 01:35:11.680
<v Speaker 2>and then the item and the other stuff. Yes, the

1911
01:35:11.880 --> 01:35:13.800
<v Speaker 2>location of a ground journal.

1912
01:35:14.000 --> 01:35:17.399
<v Speaker 4>Yes, those may be admitted.

1913
01:35:20.800 --> 01:35:25.920
<v Speaker 5>So basically, how long is your course that you take

1914
01:35:26.000 --> 01:35:30.399
<v Speaker 5>to become a crime scene technician to the state police, So.

1915
01:35:30.520 --> 01:35:33.439
<v Speaker 18>Before you're certified for fingerprints, it's usually about a year,

1916
01:35:34.119 --> 01:35:37.920
<v Speaker 18>So you're working in that crime scene services unit for

1917
01:35:37.960 --> 01:35:41.680
<v Speaker 18>a year while you're going to the school for it. Yes,

1918
01:35:41.720 --> 01:35:44.520
<v Speaker 18>it's it's more of an internal training. You don't go

1919
01:35:44.560 --> 01:35:48.039
<v Speaker 18>to a specific school. But yes, so you told us.

1920
01:35:47.960 --> 01:35:51.159
<v Speaker 5>About your training, You told us about your experience, You

1921
01:35:51.279 --> 01:35:55.039
<v Speaker 5>told us about fingerprints, You told us how you seize

1922
01:35:55.119 --> 01:35:58.199
<v Speaker 5>items in the course of the search warrant, and then

1923
01:35:58.239 --> 01:36:00.560
<v Speaker 5>you told us about looking at the photo graphs that

1924
01:36:00.600 --> 01:36:04.239
<v Speaker 5>would and the items that would depict friction ridge if any.

1925
01:36:04.399 --> 01:36:08.760
<v Speaker 5>But the bottom line is that you didn't get any fingerprints, correct,

1926
01:36:11.199 --> 01:36:13.039
<v Speaker 5>and that you could have just said that right, just

1927
01:36:13.079 --> 01:36:15.239
<v Speaker 5>come on the witness stand say we didn't get any fingerprints.

1928
01:36:15.239 --> 01:36:18.399
<v Speaker 5>It's a state So then you're talking about it as

1929
01:36:18.439 --> 01:36:21.359
<v Speaker 5>the state police investigating this case. You guys walk around

1930
01:36:21.399 --> 01:36:24.479
<v Speaker 5>and you have cameras and you take pictures, right, yes,

1931
01:36:24.720 --> 01:36:28.039
<v Speaker 5>so you told us about Well how about when you're

1932
01:36:28.039 --> 01:36:31.600
<v Speaker 5>executing a search warrant? Are you supposed to be thorough

1933
01:36:31.680 --> 01:36:33.760
<v Speaker 5>in the course of your search for items?

1934
01:36:34.600 --> 01:36:38.000
<v Speaker 18>I don't search for items, sorry, everything I do with yes,

1935
01:36:38.039 --> 01:36:39.920
<v Speaker 18>I document.

1936
01:36:38.640 --> 01:36:40.960
<v Speaker 3>I found.

1937
01:36:42.359 --> 01:36:45.000
<v Speaker 5>In addition to the drugs that were found in the kitchen,

1938
01:36:45.319 --> 01:36:48.239
<v Speaker 5>and I found these internet's.

1939
01:36:50.640 --> 01:36:59.279
<v Speaker 3>And you were a photographed there right, yes, no, I

1940
01:36:59.319 --> 01:37:01.880
<v Speaker 3>have no critical redirect.

1941
01:37:02.560 --> 01:37:05.800
<v Speaker 4>Nice, definitely coming.

1942
01:37:05.880 --> 01:37:08.119
<v Speaker 2>We would call hillaryis.

1943
01:37:09.640 --> 01:37:10.520
<v Speaker 17>My good afternoon?

1944
01:37:10.960 --> 01:37:18.399
<v Speaker 2>All right, council, thank you, Sorry, it's okay, good afternoon.

1945
01:37:18.479 --> 01:37:20.159
<v Speaker 2>Can you tell the Jersey your first and last name,

1946
01:37:20.600 --> 01:37:23.800
<v Speaker 2>Hillary Griffiths and can you spell your last name for

1947
01:37:23.840 --> 01:37:24.600
<v Speaker 2>the record.

1948
01:37:24.880 --> 01:37:29.319
<v Speaker 19>Gri f fi thhs. And where do you work? I

1949
01:37:29.359 --> 01:37:31.720
<v Speaker 19>work at the Massachusetts State Police Crime Laboratory.

1950
01:37:31.880 --> 01:37:32.720
<v Speaker 2>What do you do there?

1951
01:37:33.199 --> 01:37:36.359
<v Speaker 19>I am a forensic scientist in the toxicology unit. How

1952
01:37:36.399 --> 01:37:38.520
<v Speaker 19>long have you been with the State Police for twenty

1953
01:37:38.600 --> 01:37:41.479
<v Speaker 19>one years? And have you spent your entire career in

1954
01:37:41.479 --> 01:37:43.840
<v Speaker 19>the toxicology unit or have you worked in other units?

1955
01:37:44.279 --> 01:37:46.319
<v Speaker 19>Initially I worked in the DNA unit and then in

1956
01:37:46.359 --> 01:37:48.840
<v Speaker 19>the office of Alcohol Testing, but I have been in

1957
01:37:48.880 --> 01:37:51.079
<v Speaker 19>the toxicology unit since twenty eleven.

1958
01:37:51.800 --> 01:37:54.600
<v Speaker 2>What does the toxicology unit do At the crime lab?

1959
01:37:55.199 --> 01:38:00.239
<v Speaker 19>We test biological specimens, primarily blood and urine and some

1960
01:38:00.359 --> 01:38:05.079
<v Speaker 19>other sample types for the presence of drugs, alcohol, and

1961
01:38:05.199 --> 01:38:09.359
<v Speaker 19>some poisons to aid in criminal legal investigations. Where does

1962
01:38:09.479 --> 01:38:11.920
<v Speaker 19>the samples the blood and urine come from before it

1963
01:38:11.960 --> 01:38:19.279
<v Speaker 19>gets to your lab. They could come from like often

1964
01:38:19.399 --> 01:38:25.119
<v Speaker 19>hospital collections of blood and urine. Occasionally, urine samples can

1965
01:38:25.159 --> 01:38:28.880
<v Speaker 19>be collected from a defendant at a policy station. Also,

1966
01:38:28.920 --> 01:38:31.680
<v Speaker 19>we receive samples from the medical examiner's office.

1967
01:38:31.720 --> 01:38:35.880
<v Speaker 2>So normally it comes through some law enforcement channel, right, yes,

1968
01:38:36.119 --> 01:38:40.359
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes through the medical examiner's office. Yes, you don't

1969
01:38:40.720 --> 01:38:44.840
<v Speaker 2>have any direct involvement in the collection of the blood

1970
01:38:44.920 --> 01:38:48.600
<v Speaker 2>or urine from an individual, correct, Correct, You're just looking

1971
01:38:48.600 --> 01:38:52.479
<v Speaker 2>at the blood itself, yes, or the urine yes, Okay,

1972
01:38:52.600 --> 01:38:57.479
<v Speaker 2>So what kinds of testing is done in the toxicology unit?

1973
01:38:57.560 --> 01:39:01.319
<v Speaker 2>You mentioned alcohol and drugs and poison, So how does

1974
01:39:01.399 --> 01:39:03.239
<v Speaker 2>the toxicology unit handle those things?

1975
01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:12.359
<v Speaker 19>We initially screen samples following a particular testing strategy depending

1976
01:39:12.399 --> 01:39:16.800
<v Speaker 19>on case type, and we will screen samples and then

1977
01:39:16.960 --> 01:39:20.600
<v Speaker 19>confirm whatever is found positive in the screening using a

1978
01:39:20.640 --> 01:39:25.520
<v Speaker 19>second methodology or repeating the initial methodology using a variety

1979
01:39:25.520 --> 01:39:30.399
<v Speaker 19>of different techniques. And when a sample comes to your unit,

1980
01:39:31.079 --> 01:39:36.800
<v Speaker 19>can you explain to us how the personnel in that

1981
01:39:36.960 --> 01:39:42.279
<v Speaker 19>unit divides up the work. Yes, Our samples are tested

1982
01:39:42.279 --> 01:39:45.319
<v Speaker 19>in a batch system, So each analyst is assigned a

1983
01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:49.199
<v Speaker 19>particular task for the month, and then any case that

1984
01:39:49.279 --> 01:39:53.000
<v Speaker 19>requires that test during that month is performed by that individual.

1985
01:39:53.520 --> 01:39:58.439
<v Speaker 19>So often cases could need anywhere from three to ten

1986
01:39:58.479 --> 01:40:01.920
<v Speaker 19>different tests to be done, and so different individuals will

1987
01:40:01.920 --> 01:40:05.920
<v Speaker 19>conduct each different test. And for any given case or

1988
01:40:05.960 --> 01:40:11.479
<v Speaker 19>any different lab number, is there an analyst that's kind

1989
01:40:11.520 --> 01:40:14.119
<v Speaker 19>of assigned at the end of it all to digest

1990
01:40:14.199 --> 01:40:15.800
<v Speaker 19>or analyze all of the data.

1991
01:40:16.159 --> 01:40:17.439
<v Speaker 2>Yes, When all.

1992
01:40:17.279 --> 01:40:20.520
<v Speaker 19>Of the testing is completed for a case, an analyst

1993
01:40:20.520 --> 01:40:23.439
<v Speaker 19>takes responsibility for that case and they will review all

1994
01:40:23.479 --> 01:40:26.720
<v Speaker 19>of the raw data that's generated by the different analysts involved.

1995
01:40:27.159 --> 01:40:32.840
<v Speaker 19>They'll review the case in specific information like the police report,

1996
01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:35.359
<v Speaker 19>the documentation on the evidence itself.

1997
01:40:35.640 --> 01:40:36.880
<v Speaker 2>They'll assess the case as.

1998
01:40:36.720 --> 01:40:39.920
<v Speaker 19>A whole and they'll generate a report containing their findings.

1999
01:40:40.479 --> 01:40:43.000
<v Speaker 19>And do you receive some sort of specialized training to

2000
01:40:43.079 --> 01:40:44.880
<v Speaker 19>be part of the toxicology unit?

2001
01:40:45.119 --> 01:40:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Yes? What training do you receive?

2002
01:40:47.000 --> 01:40:49.960
<v Speaker 19>When I began working in the toxicology unit, I participated

2003
01:40:50.000 --> 01:40:53.960
<v Speaker 19>in approximately a year long training program where I connected

2004
01:40:53.960 --> 01:40:59.199
<v Speaker 19>literature reviews, attended lectures to learn the theory behind the

2005
01:40:59.239 --> 01:41:03.119
<v Speaker 19>testing and the testing process itself, as well as the

2006
01:41:03.159 --> 01:41:06.680
<v Speaker 19>interpretation of the results. And then I practiced each of

2007
01:41:06.760 --> 01:41:10.840
<v Speaker 19>the techniques on mock cases and then took tests to

2008
01:41:10.960 --> 01:41:15.319
<v Speaker 19>ensure that I understood the logic and the background behind

2009
01:41:15.319 --> 01:41:18.680
<v Speaker 19>the testing. I understood the interpretation, and I was able

2010
01:41:18.720 --> 01:41:21.680
<v Speaker 19>to test these mock cases and get the correct results

2011
01:41:21.720 --> 01:41:25.800
<v Speaker 19>prior to performing those methods on case for examples, And.

2012
01:41:25.720 --> 01:41:28.520
<v Speaker 2>You described to us that the work is done in

2013
01:41:28.800 --> 01:41:32.439
<v Speaker 2>a batch flow process, so that you could be doing

2014
01:41:32.439 --> 01:41:34.840
<v Speaker 2>different things at various points. Are you trained to do

2015
01:41:35.000 --> 01:41:39.640
<v Speaker 2>each part of the process, Yes, and so ultimately you

2016
01:41:40.399 --> 01:41:43.439
<v Speaker 2>could interpret, but you don't always interpret with every single

2017
01:41:43.479 --> 01:41:48.760
<v Speaker 2>case that you work on. Correct Now, in the toxicology unit,

2018
01:41:48.800 --> 01:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned that there are screening tests and there are

2019
01:41:51.000 --> 01:41:54.600
<v Speaker 2>confirmatory tests, and those are usually assigned differently in this

2020
01:41:55.119 --> 01:41:59.199
<v Speaker 2>batch process. Correct, it can be yes. What are generally

2021
01:41:59.399 --> 01:42:04.239
<v Speaker 2>the green tests that are done when a case comes

2022
01:42:04.239 --> 01:42:10.119
<v Speaker 2>into the Toxic College unit. For the most part, all

2023
01:42:10.199 --> 01:42:14.680
<v Speaker 2>cases receive an Eliza screen, which is a very quick

2024
01:42:14.720 --> 01:42:17.520
<v Speaker 2>color screening test that looks for eight different types of drugs.

2025
01:42:18.000 --> 01:42:21.119
<v Speaker 2>It's very sensitive but not very specific, so it basically

2026
01:42:21.159 --> 01:42:23.199
<v Speaker 2>says this type of drug might be present.

2027
01:42:23.600 --> 01:42:25.920
<v Speaker 19>Now go do follow up testing to find out specifically

2028
01:42:25.920 --> 01:42:31.119
<v Speaker 19>what's present. They also all receive a general Unknown screen,

2029
01:42:31.560 --> 01:42:35.079
<v Speaker 19>which looks for several hundred different prescription drugs, over the

2030
01:42:35.079 --> 01:42:35.800
<v Speaker 19>counter drugs, and.

2031
01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Drugs of abuse.

2032
01:42:37.399 --> 01:42:39.760
<v Speaker 19>Then, depending on the case type, they can be screened

2033
01:42:39.760 --> 01:42:44.279
<v Speaker 19>for alcohol, and they can be screened specific screening tests

2034
01:42:44.279 --> 01:42:45.720
<v Speaker 19>for GHB can be performed.

2035
01:42:45.720 --> 01:42:47.680
<v Speaker 2>If the case type warrants.

2036
01:42:47.239 --> 01:42:53.880
<v Speaker 3>That D alcohol I mean really good, you can.

2037
01:42:53.760 --> 01:42:56.279
<v Speaker 19>Continue and then depending on what is present from those

2038
01:42:56.279 --> 01:42:58.600
<v Speaker 19>screening tests, that will guide the follow up testing.

2039
01:42:59.640 --> 01:43:03.079
<v Speaker 2>And with the follow up testing, that's the process of

2040
01:43:03.359 --> 01:43:07.199
<v Speaker 2>going through that secondary confirmatory testing right, correct. And in

2041
01:43:07.239 --> 01:43:10.920
<v Speaker 2>some instances with the screens, are you looking to get

2042
01:43:10.960 --> 01:43:14.640
<v Speaker 2>any sort of specific information about a particular drug or

2043
01:43:14.760 --> 01:43:16.520
<v Speaker 2>substance that might be present or is it just a

2044
01:43:16.840 --> 01:43:19.680
<v Speaker 2>determination of whether something is detected or not detected.

2045
01:43:20.640 --> 01:43:25.319
<v Speaker 19>It depends on the test itself and the sample. The

2046
01:43:25.680 --> 01:43:28.840
<v Speaker 19>general unknown screen only tells us if a substance is

2047
01:43:28.880 --> 01:43:32.159
<v Speaker 19>detected or not detected. The general unknown screen can be

2048
01:43:32.239 --> 01:43:35.239
<v Speaker 19>run as both a screening tests and confirmatory test. With

2049
01:43:35.680 --> 01:43:42.039
<v Speaker 19>other tests, the screening test would just be qualitative and

2050
01:43:42.079 --> 01:43:44.239
<v Speaker 19>we would determine if a substance is present or not,

2051
01:43:44.800 --> 01:43:47.000
<v Speaker 19>such as when we test urine. We can only determine

2052
01:43:47.079 --> 01:43:49.039
<v Speaker 19>or report out if a substance is present or not

2053
01:43:49.800 --> 01:43:53.159
<v Speaker 19>with some tests. When testing blood, we can determine a

2054
01:43:53.159 --> 01:43:55.760
<v Speaker 19>concentration and know how much of the drug is present

2055
01:43:56.479 --> 01:43:59.159
<v Speaker 19>and if there limitations at your lab as far as

2056
01:43:59.199 --> 01:44:03.640
<v Speaker 19>determining concentration of certain types of drugs in blood. Yes,

2057
01:44:04.000 --> 01:44:07.279
<v Speaker 19>and so what happens when your lab might have screened

2058
01:44:07.359 --> 01:44:10.079
<v Speaker 19>or detected a substance but doesn't have the ability to.

2059
01:44:11.479 --> 01:44:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Give a concentration. What do you do with that?

2060
01:44:14.079 --> 01:44:16.960
<v Speaker 19>We can if the substance is confirmed, so if we've

2061
01:44:17.039 --> 01:44:20.119
<v Speaker 19>tested it twice and verify that it's definitely present, we

2062
01:44:20.119 --> 01:44:23.159
<v Speaker 19>can report it out as just detected as opposed to

2063
01:44:23.159 --> 01:44:24.119
<v Speaker 19>giving the concentration.

2064
01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Do you often work with other independent outside laboratories to

2065
01:44:28.600 --> 01:44:31.680
<v Speaker 2>do additional testing that you can't as far as determining

2066
01:44:31.720 --> 01:44:36.319
<v Speaker 2>concentrations or levels. Yes, if it's important for the case

2067
01:44:36.359 --> 01:44:38.760
<v Speaker 2>to know a concentration of a substance that we can't

2068
01:44:38.920 --> 01:44:41.960
<v Speaker 2>quantify ourselves, we can send it to a different laboratory

2069
01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:44.800
<v Speaker 2>that can perform that testing. I'm going to draw your

2070
01:44:44.840 --> 01:44:51.800
<v Speaker 2>attention to a laboratory number twenty three DASH zero one

2071
01:44:51.960 --> 01:44:55.359
<v Speaker 2>seven two three. Do you recall doing work on that

2072
01:44:55.399 --> 01:44:56.520
<v Speaker 2>particular lab number?

2073
01:44:56.720 --> 01:44:56.960
<v Speaker 10>Yes?

2074
01:44:57.159 --> 01:45:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Do you recall what your role was in that batch

2075
01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:04.640
<v Speaker 2>process for the lab number?

2076
01:45:05.159 --> 01:45:05.359
<v Speaker 9>Yes?

2077
01:45:06.479 --> 01:45:11.359
<v Speaker 19>I performed the conformation method for benzodiazepines on the urine

2078
01:45:11.399 --> 01:45:15.560
<v Speaker 19>sample and the quantitation method for benzodiazepines on the blood sample.

2079
01:45:19.079 --> 01:45:22.159
<v Speaker 2>And in order to do well, can you tell us

2080
01:45:22.159 --> 01:45:25.720
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about the benzodiazepine What did you do

2081
01:45:25.840 --> 01:45:28.760
<v Speaker 2>as far as it that particular test.

2082
01:45:29.680 --> 01:45:32.279
<v Speaker 19>When it's testing both the blood and the urine, for

2083
01:45:32.319 --> 01:45:35.600
<v Speaker 19>the most part, the same method is used. We use

2084
01:45:36.199 --> 01:45:40.479
<v Speaker 19>solid phase extraction method to separate the drugs from the

2085
01:45:40.479 --> 01:45:40.920
<v Speaker 19>rest of.

2086
01:45:40.920 --> 01:45:42.239
<v Speaker 2>The biological material.

2087
01:45:43.479 --> 01:45:48.319
<v Speaker 19>Biological materials can have things like lipids and steroids and

2088
01:45:48.359 --> 01:45:50.960
<v Speaker 19>blood cells and bacteria and other things that can interfere

2089
01:45:50.960 --> 01:45:53.800
<v Speaker 19>with their testing, So we use this solid phase extraction

2090
01:45:54.199 --> 01:45:56.960
<v Speaker 19>method to separate the drugs and concentrate them to be

2091
01:45:57.000 --> 01:45:59.960
<v Speaker 19>able to run on our instrument, and then we run

2092
01:46:00.079 --> 01:46:04.600
<v Speaker 19>them on a LCMSMS, which is a liquid chromatograph mass

2093
01:46:04.640 --> 01:46:10.359
<v Speaker 19>spectrometer that can separate the different drugs and identify specifically

2094
01:46:10.399 --> 01:46:10.960
<v Speaker 19>which one.

2095
01:46:10.840 --> 01:46:12.399
<v Speaker 2>Is present and how much is there.

2096
01:46:13.960 --> 01:46:17.119
<v Speaker 19>When we're testing blood samples, we can report out that

2097
01:46:17.239 --> 01:46:20.760
<v Speaker 19>value for how much is present when testing urine samples

2098
01:46:20.800 --> 01:46:21.520
<v Speaker 19>by this method.

2099
01:46:21.600 --> 01:46:25.319
<v Speaker 2>Although the method itself can determine how much is present.

2100
01:46:25.239 --> 01:46:29.720
<v Speaker 19>We don't report that out because concentrations in urine aren't

2101
01:46:29.760 --> 01:46:33.680
<v Speaker 19>really meaningful. They don't reflect any concentration that had previously

2102
01:46:33.680 --> 01:46:36.960
<v Speaker 19>been in the blood. They mostly just reflect how much

2103
01:46:37.159 --> 01:46:39.800
<v Speaker 19>of the drug was present in the urine, so we

2104
01:46:39.840 --> 01:46:43.239
<v Speaker 19>don't report that. There is an additional step that's needed

2105
01:46:43.239 --> 01:46:47.159
<v Speaker 19>when testing urine at the beginning of the method. But otherwise,

2106
01:46:47.199 --> 01:46:48.840
<v Speaker 19>both the blood and the urine are tested in the

2107
01:46:48.880 --> 01:46:53.960
<v Speaker 19>same manner using the solid phase extraction and the LCMSMS.

2108
01:46:53.479 --> 01:46:57.439
<v Speaker 2>And in this case with this laboratory number, the Toxicollege

2109
01:46:57.520 --> 01:47:00.520
<v Speaker 2>unit was in fact provided with six files of blood

2110
01:47:00.520 --> 01:47:03.720
<v Speaker 2>in one vial of urine. Correct there were four vials

2111
01:47:03.720 --> 01:47:07.079
<v Speaker 2>of blood and then two vials of serum plasma which

2112
01:47:07.119 --> 01:47:09.359
<v Speaker 2>had started out as blood but were serum by the

2113
01:47:09.359 --> 01:47:12.560
<v Speaker 2>time we received them. And then one two B of urine. Okay.

2114
01:47:12.920 --> 01:47:16.520
<v Speaker 2>And as far as the urine goes in your role

2115
01:47:16.560 --> 01:47:21.840
<v Speaker 2>in this batch process, you conducted that benzardiazpine screen correct yes,

2116
01:47:21.880 --> 01:47:22.840
<v Speaker 2>and it was positive.

2117
01:47:24.359 --> 01:47:24.600
<v Speaker 8>Yes.

2118
01:47:25.399 --> 01:47:31.199
<v Speaker 2>And then the further testing were you able to detect

2119
01:47:31.279 --> 01:47:36.079
<v Speaker 2>any particular benzardiazepines in the urine. I didn't conduct the

2120
01:47:36.119 --> 01:47:40.079
<v Speaker 2>initial benzodiazepine screen through the Eliza method, which was positive.

2121
01:47:40.399 --> 01:47:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Based on that positive result, I ran the conformation method

2122
01:47:43.560 --> 01:47:46.000
<v Speaker 2>on the urine which identified the specific drugs that were

2123
01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:51.520
<v Speaker 2>present and then identified in urine nor diazepam, oxazepam, temazipam,

2124
01:47:51.560 --> 01:47:55.600
<v Speaker 2>and lurazepam. And based on your training experience, when it

2125
01:47:55.640 --> 01:47:59.720
<v Speaker 2>comes to those substances, if it's detected in either blood

2126
01:47:59.760 --> 01:48:04.560
<v Speaker 2>or does it mean that there are those four separate

2127
01:48:04.800 --> 01:48:08.680
<v Speaker 2>substances or could they be derivatives of one particular drug.

2128
01:48:09.079 --> 01:48:15.079
<v Speaker 19>Yes, each of those substances is available as its own drug.

2129
01:48:16.479 --> 01:48:19.960
<v Speaker 19>You can get prescriptions from them, you can purchase them. However,

2130
01:48:20.720 --> 01:48:26.640
<v Speaker 19>diazepam that's more commonly used than nordiazipam, oxazepam, and tenazipam

2131
01:48:27.199 --> 01:48:30.359
<v Speaker 19>breaks down into those other three substances. So often when

2132
01:48:30.359 --> 01:48:35.640
<v Speaker 19>we detect nordiazepam, oxazepam, and tenazipam, they actually are present

2133
01:48:35.680 --> 01:48:40.399
<v Speaker 19>in the body because diazepam or another benzodiazepin was initially

2134
01:48:40.439 --> 01:48:42.600
<v Speaker 19>taken and it broke down to those three.

2135
01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:45.359
<v Speaker 2>But as far as your testing is when it comes

2136
01:48:45.359 --> 01:48:48.239
<v Speaker 2>to urine, you can't determine or quantify what it was

2137
01:48:48.359 --> 01:48:52.600
<v Speaker 2>or if it was one drug or multiple. Correct. Now,

2138
01:48:52.760 --> 01:48:55.640
<v Speaker 2>in this particular case, you indicated that there was also

2139
01:48:55.680 --> 01:48:59.000
<v Speaker 2>further testing done on the blood. Correct. Yes, And was

2140
01:48:59.039 --> 01:49:02.960
<v Speaker 2>it a well for the benzodiazepines. Yes, and that was

2141
01:49:03.000 --> 01:49:05.279
<v Speaker 2>just because that was your role in the batch testing

2142
01:49:05.319 --> 01:49:09.840
<v Speaker 2>for this case. Yes, what were the results in the

2143
01:49:09.920 --> 01:49:12.960
<v Speaker 2>testing of the benzodiazepines in the blood?

2144
01:49:13.560 --> 01:49:18.000
<v Speaker 19>The blood contained eight point eight nanograms per mil a

2145
01:49:18.119 --> 01:49:22.960
<v Speaker 19>leader of diazepam and twenty nanograms per mila leader of

2146
01:49:23.039 --> 01:49:28.279
<v Speaker 19>nordiazepam and four point eight nanograms per mil of oxazipam,

2147
01:49:28.760 --> 01:49:32.840
<v Speaker 19>and one point nine nanograms per mil of tmaza pam

2148
01:49:33.199 --> 01:49:36.000
<v Speaker 19>and sixty one nanograms per mil of lurazapam.

2149
01:49:36.800 --> 01:49:39.800
<v Speaker 2>And in your role in this testing process, you're just

2150
01:49:39.880 --> 01:49:42.880
<v Speaker 2>running the equipment, running the test and getting the data correct.

2151
01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:46.479
<v Speaker 2>There is some analysis of the data.

2152
01:49:46.520 --> 01:49:50.680
<v Speaker 19>I have to ensure that the controls performed appropriately, that

2153
01:49:50.760 --> 01:49:54.920
<v Speaker 19>the instrument was running properly, and make a decision based

2154
01:49:54.960 --> 01:49:57.720
<v Speaker 19>on the instrument data what I considered to be positive

2155
01:49:57.800 --> 01:50:00.119
<v Speaker 19>or not. But then it's handed off to an other

2156
01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:01.920
<v Speaker 19>analysts who generates the final report.

2157
01:50:02.199 --> 01:50:05.960
<v Speaker 2>And in this case, where all the controls appropriate, all

2158
01:50:06.000 --> 01:50:10.520
<v Speaker 2>the equipment running effectively, and everything done according to the

2159
01:50:10.520 --> 01:50:12.239
<v Speaker 2>policies and procedures of the lab.

2160
01:50:12.960 --> 01:50:16.159
<v Speaker 19>Ultimately all of the relevant controls that were associated with

2161
01:50:16.199 --> 01:50:17.720
<v Speaker 19>the samples performed appropriately.

2162
01:50:18.359 --> 01:50:20.600
<v Speaker 2>What did you do with the information or the data

2163
01:50:20.640 --> 01:50:22.640
<v Speaker 2>that you received as a result of these tests? What

2164
01:50:22.760 --> 01:50:23.439
<v Speaker 2>did you do with it?

2165
01:50:23.960 --> 01:50:26.039
<v Speaker 19>I put it together in a batch file that contained

2166
01:50:26.079 --> 01:50:29.840
<v Speaker 19>all the data for my analysis. It contained the case

2167
01:50:29.920 --> 01:50:32.560
<v Speaker 19>data for the samples that were run on that day,

2168
01:50:32.800 --> 01:50:34.680
<v Speaker 19>as well as all the control data that was run

2169
01:50:34.720 --> 01:50:38.359
<v Speaker 19>simultaneously and other traceability type info.

2170
01:50:38.279 --> 01:50:41.119
<v Speaker 2>And gave it to another analyst who reviewed.

2171
01:50:40.760 --> 01:50:44.279
<v Speaker 19>It to ensure that laboratory policies and procedures were followed,

2172
01:50:44.760 --> 01:50:49.479
<v Speaker 19>that the controls performed appropriately in order to report the results,

2173
01:50:49.840 --> 01:50:53.159
<v Speaker 19>and that the results were scientifically accurate. And then after

2174
01:50:53.199 --> 01:50:58.439
<v Speaker 19>that analyst agreed with my findings. The data was.

2175
01:50:58.479 --> 01:51:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Put into the individual case lifeles, and in this case,

2176
01:51:01.880 --> 01:51:05.960
<v Speaker 2>the reporting analyst for the entire lab lab number of

2177
01:51:06.239 --> 01:51:09.239
<v Speaker 2>twenty three DASH zero one seven two three was in

2178
01:51:09.239 --> 01:51:11.880
<v Speaker 2>fact somebody by the name of Nicholas Roberts. Correct. Yes,

2179
01:51:12.079 --> 01:51:14.920
<v Speaker 2>And you're aware that there were other forensic scientists who

2180
01:51:14.920 --> 01:51:18.079
<v Speaker 2>did other testing for other types of drugs in the

2181
01:51:18.239 --> 01:51:20.439
<v Speaker 2>same test, but it wasn't part of your role or

2182
01:51:20.520 --> 01:51:22.560
<v Speaker 2>your batch. Correct, Thank you.

2183
01:51:24.880 --> 01:51:25.439
<v Speaker 3>It's greaty.

2184
01:51:29.399 --> 01:51:34.840
<v Speaker 5>So the toxicology report you're familiar with was dated February

2185
01:51:34.840 --> 01:51:36.640
<v Speaker 5>twenty fourth of twenty twenty three.

2186
01:51:36.680 --> 01:51:39.279
<v Speaker 3>Is that correct? Do you have it in front of you?

2187
01:51:40.079 --> 01:51:42.039
<v Speaker 2>I can't refer today, Yeah, great.

2188
01:51:42.760 --> 01:51:46.800
<v Speaker 5>Thank you, yes, okay, and you can keep it right

2189
01:51:46.800 --> 01:51:49.600
<v Speaker 5>there and look at it, and then you have it

2190
01:51:49.600 --> 01:51:52.079
<v Speaker 5>makes reference to your lab number, and then it talks

2191
01:51:52.119 --> 01:51:54.840
<v Speaker 5>about the specimens that you've indicated, which would be the

2192
01:51:54.880 --> 01:51:59.960
<v Speaker 5>toxicology blood times for seren plasma you noted seren plasma

2193
01:52:00.039 --> 01:52:03.439
<v Speaker 5>and then urine right, yes. And when you say serum plasma,

2194
01:52:03.520 --> 01:52:05.399
<v Speaker 5>what is that? Is that just a breakdown of the

2195
01:52:05.439 --> 01:52:07.680
<v Speaker 5>blood or is it that that was actual plasma that

2196
01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:09.880
<v Speaker 5>was submitted? How did that come about? As opposed to

2197
01:52:11.079 --> 01:52:15.359
<v Speaker 5>the actual blood. In items number one, two, and.

2198
01:52:15.640 --> 01:52:19.720
<v Speaker 19>Three, we received samples that were taken for medical reasons,

2199
01:52:20.239 --> 01:52:24.840
<v Speaker 19>and the sample that was initially drawn would have been blood,

2200
01:52:25.439 --> 01:52:28.720
<v Speaker 19>but the hospital would have separated the blood cells from

2201
01:52:28.840 --> 01:52:32.840
<v Speaker 19>the liquid portion of the sample prior to it being

2202
01:52:32.840 --> 01:52:34.840
<v Speaker 19>submitted to our lab. So what I received it it

2203
01:52:34.880 --> 01:52:38.199
<v Speaker 19>was serum plasma, but it would have initially been blood.

2204
01:52:38.640 --> 01:52:43.079
<v Speaker 5>Okay, And likewise with the urine correct, yes, And you

2205
01:52:43.159 --> 01:52:48.319
<v Speaker 5>received all of these items in indicating light blue top tube,

2206
01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:53.560
<v Speaker 5>potassium oxalate, sodium fluoride that would just so prevent coagulation.

2207
01:52:53.039 --> 01:52:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, yes.

2208
01:52:55.600 --> 01:52:58.479
<v Speaker 5>And then looking down further, it says on the toxicology

2209
01:52:58.560 --> 01:53:01.680
<v Speaker 5>blood you make rep too, as you indicated the eight

2210
01:53:01.680 --> 01:53:09.039
<v Speaker 5>point eight diazepam, the nord diazepam, the ox azipam, tamazepam, razipam,

2211
01:53:10.399 --> 01:53:14.079
<v Speaker 5>and you're putting down would that be nanograms per miller

2212
01:53:14.159 --> 01:53:18.079
<v Speaker 5>leaders n G M L Yes, okay, And it's kind

2213
01:53:18.079 --> 01:53:21.279
<v Speaker 5>of had to follow through with that, so I'm going

2214
01:53:21.319 --> 01:53:22.880
<v Speaker 5>to approach you this is a copy.

2215
01:53:22.680 --> 01:53:26.119
<v Speaker 3>Of the blood toxicology before that you're referring.

2216
01:53:25.760 --> 01:53:32.640
<v Speaker 2>To, right, sure, of course, yes, And.

2217
01:53:32.720 --> 01:53:36.640
<v Speaker 5>This is the tox report for Lindsey Clancy right, yes,

2218
01:53:37.279 --> 01:53:40.239
<v Speaker 5>and it's making reference to incident data January twenty fourth

2219
01:53:40.279 --> 01:53:41.640
<v Speaker 5>and twenty three, correctly.

2220
01:53:41.479 --> 01:53:44.800
<v Speaker 3>Yes, ob chichen.

2221
01:53:46.239 --> 01:53:47.760
<v Speaker 8>No, that may be admitted.

2222
01:53:52.039 --> 01:53:52.800
<v Speaker 3>You can continue.

2223
01:53:55.000 --> 01:53:59.239
<v Speaker 5>You then make reference to organic bases and neutrals, right, yes?

2224
01:53:59.399 --> 01:54:02.239
<v Speaker 5>Can you tell me what is an organic basin a neutral?

2225
01:54:02.279 --> 01:54:02.920
<v Speaker 3>What does that mean?

2226
01:54:03.720 --> 01:54:04.560
<v Speaker 2>That refers to?

2227
01:54:06.079 --> 01:54:08.520
<v Speaker 19>So the line above that the organic acids and neutrals

2228
01:54:08.600 --> 01:54:12.000
<v Speaker 19>and the organic bases and neutrals refer to the results

2229
01:54:12.039 --> 01:54:16.039
<v Speaker 19>from the general unknown screen, which is another screen that

2230
01:54:16.159 --> 01:54:17.600
<v Speaker 19>was performed by a different analyst.

2231
01:54:18.159 --> 01:54:18.439
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

2232
01:54:18.520 --> 01:54:21.640
<v Speaker 5>Do you know who the analyst was, Lisa Yell And

2233
01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:24.800
<v Speaker 5>would that be with the Department of the Massachusetts State Police?

2234
01:54:25.359 --> 01:54:25.520
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

2235
01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:29.479
<v Speaker 5>Okay, And as it relates to the Talks report, it

2236
01:54:29.600 --> 01:54:32.600
<v Speaker 5>also notes that what is an organic base and a neutral?

2237
01:54:32.600 --> 01:54:33.920
<v Speaker 3>What does that mean? Though? I just don't know.

2238
01:54:34.720 --> 01:54:38.880
<v Speaker 19>This testing procedure separates the drugs present in the sample

2239
01:54:39.000 --> 01:54:42.640
<v Speaker 19>into drugs that are more basic in nature and drugs

2240
01:54:42.680 --> 01:54:45.600
<v Speaker 19>that are more acidic in nature. This test looks for

2241
01:54:45.680 --> 01:54:48.079
<v Speaker 19>several hundred types of drugs, and so in order to

2242
01:54:49.840 --> 01:54:54.279
<v Speaker 19>customize the extraction method to target certain drugs, the sample

2243
01:54:54.359 --> 01:54:55.760
<v Speaker 19>is divided into two fractions.

2244
01:54:57.800 --> 01:55:00.000
<v Speaker 5>So, in other words, it gives you a broader spectrum,

2245
01:55:00.159 --> 01:55:02.000
<v Speaker 5>if you will, of the drugs that would be in

2246
01:55:02.079 --> 01:55:05.960
<v Speaker 5>the person's uh sample of their blood, right, yes, And

2247
01:55:06.079 --> 01:55:13.199
<v Speaker 5>that detected meritazepine, right yes, maatrogene right yes, probably mispronouncing

2248
01:55:13.279 --> 01:55:20.199
<v Speaker 5>this quietapinetiopine, quotiopene, and quotiopine metabolite, right, yes, as well

2249
01:55:20.279 --> 01:55:23.159
<v Speaker 5>as trazodone right correct, And just tell me what is

2250
01:55:23.159 --> 01:55:23.840
<v Speaker 5>a metabolite?

2251
01:55:23.880 --> 01:55:26.039
<v Speaker 3>What does that mean? Tiopine metabolite.

2252
01:55:26.840 --> 01:55:31.000
<v Speaker 19>When we consume drugs, our body will break down the drug,

2253
01:55:31.319 --> 01:55:36.039
<v Speaker 19>often into another molecule before it's being extreted, and sometimes

2254
01:55:36.079 --> 01:55:39.800
<v Speaker 19>our testing can detect these breakdown molecules as well. So

2255
01:55:40.199 --> 01:55:43.680
<v Speaker 19>this test detected both quotiopine as well as its breakdown product.

2256
01:55:44.079 --> 01:55:47.399
<v Speaker 5>So there was that would indicate that there was critiopine

2257
01:55:47.760 --> 01:55:51.039
<v Speaker 5>that was in the blood as well as a quotyopine

2258
01:55:51.079 --> 01:55:53.840
<v Speaker 5>metabolite or a breakdown over a passage of time.

2259
01:55:54.199 --> 01:55:54.359
<v Speaker 10>Yes.

2260
01:55:55.800 --> 01:55:58.399
<v Speaker 3>Also, just you guys checked for everything.

2261
01:55:58.479 --> 01:56:03.520
<v Speaker 5>There's no alcohol detected, right correct, noemphetamines detected, right correct.

2262
01:56:03.680 --> 01:56:06.319
<v Speaker 5>It was a benzo screen that was positive, which we've

2263
01:56:06.359 --> 01:56:12.079
<v Speaker 5>already talked about, correct, yes, uh, we but penofarine screen

2264
01:56:12.399 --> 01:56:22.920
<v Speaker 5>none detected, right, Yes, cocaine, infentanyl none right, yes, methamphetamines

2265
01:56:22.960 --> 01:56:28.199
<v Speaker 5>none correct, it's none, yes, cannabinoids that would be weed,

2266
01:56:28.319 --> 01:56:28.960
<v Speaker 5>right none.

2267
01:56:29.359 --> 01:56:30.840
<v Speaker 2>It's the active molecule in there.

2268
01:56:31.399 --> 01:56:33.760
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Uh, Diazepam none.

2269
01:56:35.399 --> 01:56:45.199
<v Speaker 5>Yes, nor diazepam detected correct, oxes pam detected yes, term

2270
01:56:45.279 --> 01:56:50.239
<v Speaker 5>az apam detected yes, detected right yes. And then finally

2271
01:56:50.279 --> 01:56:53.720
<v Speaker 5>it says organic acids and neutrals none detected.

2272
01:56:54.720 --> 01:56:57.880
<v Speaker 3>Right yes, And then you talk about that would be

2273
01:56:57.920 --> 01:56:58.520
<v Speaker 3>the acids.

2274
01:56:58.600 --> 01:57:01.840
<v Speaker 5>Then you talk about the actual organic bases, and it

2275
01:57:01.960 --> 01:57:04.119
<v Speaker 5>lists all of the other items that we just went through.

2276
01:57:04.239 --> 01:57:07.800
<v Speaker 5>Trazodone trasidome metabolite for example, So you have the trasidon

2277
01:57:07.880 --> 01:57:10.920
<v Speaker 5>plus to break down of the metabolite, you have the

2278
01:57:11.039 --> 01:57:17.680
<v Speaker 5>mertazepine as well as metazepine metabolite, right correct, the matrogene quietipene,

2279
01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:20.479
<v Speaker 5>and the quietipine metabolite right correct.

2280
01:57:21.399 --> 01:57:21.560
<v Speaker 3>Now.

2281
01:57:22.439 --> 01:57:26.600
<v Speaker 5>You would also, in your direct examination made reference to another.

2282
01:57:26.399 --> 01:57:29.640
<v Speaker 3>Lab that you all work with. Apparently they've had occasion

2283
01:57:29.680 --> 01:57:30.399
<v Speaker 3>to work with right.

2284
01:57:31.199 --> 01:57:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Occasionally we have sent samples to another lab.

2285
01:57:35.039 --> 01:57:39.119
<v Speaker 5>Okay, would that be NMS Labs located in Horsesham h

2286
01:57:39.199 --> 01:57:40.960
<v Speaker 5>u r Saha, n Pennsylvania.

2287
01:57:42.359 --> 01:57:45.439
<v Speaker 19>NMS labs. I don't recall the location of the lab.

2288
01:57:45.520 --> 01:57:48.640
<v Speaker 5>Okay, but you know NMS labs and that's pretty well known, right, yes,

2289
01:57:48.760 --> 01:57:52.359
<v Speaker 5>you guys right? And was a sample Lev Lindsay's blood

2290
01:57:52.399 --> 01:57:53.680
<v Speaker 5>sent to that place as well?

2291
01:57:54.000 --> 01:57:54.199
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

2292
01:57:54.680 --> 01:57:57.039
<v Speaker 5>And were there results for that as a result of

2293
01:57:57.119 --> 01:57:58.439
<v Speaker 5>the examination.

2294
01:57:58.920 --> 01:57:59.439
<v Speaker 8>I believe?

2295
01:57:59.520 --> 01:58:05.279
<v Speaker 3>So, okay, I'm going to approach you with far sure,

2296
01:58:09.079 --> 01:58:10.800
<v Speaker 3>all right, redirect?

2297
01:58:12.880 --> 01:58:14.640
<v Speaker 17>Okay, thank you, mam said down thing, thank you?

2298
01:58:15.800 --> 01:58:21.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, come on, common would call Lisa Yell? Thanks?

2299
01:58:22.279 --> 01:58:26.479
<v Speaker 17>Oh you good afternoon, aie, come thank you?

2300
01:58:27.039 --> 01:58:29.079
<v Speaker 2>Good ascanoon, ma'am. Can you please tell the jurors your

2301
01:58:29.119 --> 01:58:29.920
<v Speaker 2>first and last name.

2302
01:58:30.680 --> 01:58:33.479
<v Speaker 8>My name is Lisa Yell spelled y E l l E.

2303
01:58:34.359 --> 01:58:35.840
<v Speaker 2>And what do you do for work?

2304
01:58:36.920 --> 01:58:40.039
<v Speaker 8>I currently work at a biotech pharmacy company.

2305
01:58:40.600 --> 01:58:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Did you work for the Massachusetts Please Crime Lab at

2306
01:58:43.000 --> 01:58:43.359
<v Speaker 2>some point?

2307
01:58:43.720 --> 01:58:44.239
<v Speaker 3>Yes? I did?

2308
01:58:44.439 --> 01:58:46.039
<v Speaker 2>And how long did you work for the crime lab?

2309
01:58:46.640 --> 01:58:47.600
<v Speaker 8>For fifteen years?

2310
01:58:48.319 --> 01:58:51.479
<v Speaker 2>And in January of twenty twenty three? What unit were

2311
01:58:51.520 --> 01:58:52.960
<v Speaker 2>you working with at the crime lab?

2312
01:58:53.399 --> 01:58:54.520
<v Speaker 8>The toxicology unit?

2313
01:58:54.680 --> 01:58:59.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, and more specifically, I guess February of twenty twenty three,

2314
01:58:59.760 --> 01:59:00.880
<v Speaker 2>were still in that unit.

2315
01:59:01.439 --> 01:59:01.640
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

2316
01:59:03.439 --> 01:59:05.560
<v Speaker 2>Now I'm just going to draw your attention right to

2317
01:59:05.640 --> 01:59:09.520
<v Speaker 2>this particular case. We're talking about labatory number twenty three

2318
01:59:09.680 --> 01:59:13.680
<v Speaker 2>dash zero one seven two three. Did you do any

2319
01:59:14.000 --> 01:59:15.800
<v Speaker 2>batch work on this particular case?

2320
01:59:16.399 --> 01:59:16.920
<v Speaker 8>Yes, I did.

2321
01:59:17.239 --> 01:59:21.199
<v Speaker 2>And what testing did you do in relation to the

2322
01:59:21.279 --> 01:59:23.279
<v Speaker 2>samples of this lab number?

2323
01:59:23.880 --> 01:59:26.159
<v Speaker 8>It was a test that was known as the general

2324
01:59:26.279 --> 01:59:26.960
<v Speaker 8>unknown screen.

2325
01:59:27.479 --> 01:59:31.319
<v Speaker 2>Can you tell the jury what the general unknown screen does?

2326
01:59:31.439 --> 01:59:32.000
<v Speaker 2>What it tests?

2327
01:59:32.079 --> 01:59:34.840
<v Speaker 8>For sure? That's a screening test for drugs.

2328
01:59:35.359 --> 01:59:39.960
<v Speaker 21>It essentially would test for hundreds of different prescription medications

2329
01:59:40.119 --> 01:59:41.079
<v Speaker 21>or drugs of abuse.

2330
01:59:41.760 --> 01:59:45.880
<v Speaker 2>And in this particular test, the general unknown screen, is

2331
01:59:45.960 --> 01:59:49.800
<v Speaker 2>there a portion of testing in the lab for general

2332
01:59:49.920 --> 01:59:56.319
<v Speaker 2>unknowns that would allow you to quantify when certain substances

2333
01:59:56.359 --> 01:59:56.920
<v Speaker 2>are detected?

2334
01:59:58.159 --> 02:00:00.680
<v Speaker 21>The General unknown screen is not a quanti viable test.

2335
02:00:00.760 --> 02:00:03.520
<v Speaker 21>It's just an identification screen. So you wouldn't be able

2336
02:00:03.560 --> 02:00:07.199
<v Speaker 21>to attribute a specific level of the drug, but just

2337
02:00:07.239 --> 02:00:08.960
<v Speaker 21>the identification that it was present or not.

2338
02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:12.199
<v Speaker 2>So it would be a detected or non detected situation.

2339
02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:12.920
<v Speaker 8>Correct.

2340
02:00:13.439 --> 02:00:19.079
<v Speaker 2>And in this particular case, items ten one zero one

2341
02:00:19.319 --> 02:00:25.439
<v Speaker 2>involved a vile of blood that was submitted to the laboratory. Correct, Yes,

2342
02:00:25.600 --> 02:00:28.039
<v Speaker 2>and you did the general unknown screen for the blood?

2343
02:00:28.560 --> 02:00:28.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

2344
02:00:29.399 --> 02:00:33.960
<v Speaker 2>And what were the substances that were detected in that

2345
02:00:34.119 --> 02:00:34.960
<v Speaker 2>sample of blood.

2346
02:00:35.920 --> 02:00:38.880
<v Speaker 21>Would I be able to reference sure, just to ensure

2347
02:00:38.920 --> 02:00:40.319
<v Speaker 21>that I'm attributing everything.

2348
02:00:46.199 --> 02:00:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Eighty three is that refresher memories to the substances. Yes,

2349
02:00:52.640 --> 02:01:00.760
<v Speaker 2>for tazepinemtrogene, tras doon the doonem.

2350
02:01:00.880 --> 02:01:04.399
<v Speaker 21>In that test, there was a syringe issue, which means essentially,

2351
02:01:04.439 --> 02:01:07.119
<v Speaker 21>if you consider a needle that has a plunger on

2352
02:01:07.199 --> 02:01:09.479
<v Speaker 21>the top, it would have essentially gotten stuck at some

2353
02:01:09.640 --> 02:01:12.800
<v Speaker 21>point within the batch run, which could run for twenty

2354
02:01:12.840 --> 02:01:14.760
<v Speaker 21>four to forty eight hours. It's a very lengthy run.

2355
02:01:15.319 --> 02:01:18.800
<v Speaker 21>So once the error is notified, it's a very simple switch.

2356
02:01:18.840 --> 02:01:21.039
<v Speaker 21>You just pull the syringe out, place it back, place

2357
02:01:21.119 --> 02:01:23.680
<v Speaker 21>a new one back into that same spot, and then

2358
02:01:23.720 --> 02:01:26.720
<v Speaker 21>you would restart your run from that point forward, including

2359
02:01:26.800 --> 02:01:29.239
<v Speaker 21>a control just to ensure that the instrument is still

2360
02:01:29.279 --> 02:01:30.399
<v Speaker 21>functioning the way that it should.

2361
02:01:30.640 --> 02:01:33.359
<v Speaker 2>And so would that type of error that you observed

2362
02:01:33.399 --> 02:01:37.079
<v Speaker 2>in the equipment affect the results of the test not

2363
02:01:37.199 --> 02:01:41.880
<v Speaker 2>in any way. And in addition to the testing or

2364
02:01:41.920 --> 02:01:44.760
<v Speaker 2>running this general unknown screen on the blood, you also

2365
02:01:45.039 --> 02:01:48.239
<v Speaker 2>ran a general unknown screen on urine which was identified

2366
02:01:48.239 --> 02:01:50.600
<v Speaker 2>as item ten dash two zero one. Correct.

2367
02:01:50.880 --> 02:01:51.399
<v Speaker 8>That's correct?

2368
02:01:51.520 --> 02:01:54.119
<v Speaker 2>And were those same substances detected in the urine.

2369
02:01:54.359 --> 02:01:54.880
<v Speaker 8>Yes, they were.

2370
02:01:55.119 --> 02:01:57.760
<v Speaker 2>And again, as far as those particular substances in the

2371
02:01:57.840 --> 02:02:02.079
<v Speaker 2>general unknown screen are known screen tests for urine, are

2372
02:02:02.119 --> 02:02:03.880
<v Speaker 2>you able to quantify it in any way?

2373
02:02:04.239 --> 02:02:04.279
<v Speaker 14>No?

2374
02:02:05.760 --> 02:02:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Is it fair to say that there are other laboratories

2375
02:02:08.880 --> 02:02:13.199
<v Speaker 2>across the country that potentially could quantify those substances. Yes,

2376
02:02:13.520 --> 02:02:18.439
<v Speaker 2>And so in this case, are you aware that there

2377
02:02:18.479 --> 02:02:20.920
<v Speaker 2>were samples of the blood and that were sent to

2378
02:02:21.000 --> 02:02:24.720
<v Speaker 2>another lab because of those positive tests for those substances?

2379
02:02:25.039 --> 02:02:25.720
<v Speaker 8>I am not aware.

2380
02:02:25.920 --> 02:02:30.239
<v Speaker 2>Okay, you weren't the reporting analysts in this case? Correct?

2381
02:02:30.479 --> 02:02:30.800
<v Speaker 3>Correct?

2382
02:02:30.840 --> 02:02:33.560
<v Speaker 2>I was not. So after you did those general unknown

2383
02:02:33.720 --> 02:02:35.640
<v Speaker 2>screens in the blood in the urine, what did you

2384
02:02:35.680 --> 02:02:38.640
<v Speaker 2>do with the information the testing.

2385
02:02:39.319 --> 02:02:42.680
<v Speaker 21>Every independent sample receives its own summary sheet where you

2386
02:02:42.760 --> 02:02:46.319
<v Speaker 21>document any possible drugs that were detected. All of the

2387
02:02:46.359 --> 02:02:48.439
<v Speaker 21>sheets are submitted to what's called a batch review, so

2388
02:02:48.520 --> 02:02:52.600
<v Speaker 21>a secondary person will independently review everything and ensure that

2389
02:02:52.680 --> 02:02:54.720
<v Speaker 21>they have that drew the same conclusions that I did.

2390
02:02:55.359 --> 02:02:58.279
<v Speaker 21>Once both people have agreed, all of the paperwork that

2391
02:02:58.399 --> 02:03:01.600
<v Speaker 21>is generated as filed within the respective case files, and

2392
02:03:01.680 --> 02:03:05.479
<v Speaker 21>then that's later submitted to an analyst at random to

2393
02:03:06.199 --> 02:03:08.560
<v Speaker 21>author the report and review the entirety of the case.

2394
02:03:09.079 --> 02:03:12.600
<v Speaker 2>And in this particular case for Lab number twenty three

2395
02:03:13.840 --> 02:03:17.399
<v Speaker 2>zero one seven two three, you're aware that Nicholas Roberts

2396
02:03:17.560 --> 02:03:21.520
<v Speaker 2>was the reporting analyst correct correct and any decisions on

2397
02:03:21.760 --> 02:03:24.039
<v Speaker 2>any further testing were likely made through him.

2398
02:03:24.760 --> 02:03:27.600
<v Speaker 21>In your experience, yes, it definitely would not have been

2399
02:03:27.640 --> 02:03:30.079
<v Speaker 21>part of the role for someone doing a portion of

2400
02:03:30.119 --> 02:03:31.199
<v Speaker 21>the testing within a case.

2401
02:03:32.199 --> 02:03:37.399
<v Speaker 2>And as far as the particular substances that were detected

2402
02:03:39.960 --> 02:03:42.239
<v Speaker 2>when you are running these tests, it doesn't tell you

2403
02:03:42.600 --> 02:03:46.159
<v Speaker 2>that there were several different drugs that were necessarily consumed

2404
02:03:46.159 --> 02:03:46.880
<v Speaker 2>by the individual.

2405
02:03:46.960 --> 02:03:50.239
<v Speaker 8>Correct finish in your question, well, are there.

2406
02:03:50.239 --> 02:03:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Certain substances that come up in these screens that could

2407
02:03:53.279 --> 02:03:55.680
<v Speaker 2>be attributable to the same type of drug?

2408
02:03:57.159 --> 02:04:00.800
<v Speaker 21>There are certain we would call them parent drugs metabolites.

2409
02:04:01.159 --> 02:04:04.279
<v Speaker 21>Once you ingest the medication, your body will begin to

2410
02:04:04.359 --> 02:04:06.439
<v Speaker 21>metabolize or break that drug down, So there could be

2411
02:04:06.560 --> 02:04:09.960
<v Speaker 21>metabolites that are related to the parent compound of the

2412
02:04:10.039 --> 02:04:11.079
<v Speaker 21>medication that was taken.

2413
02:04:11.800 --> 02:04:18.079
<v Speaker 2>So where there were five there were five positive or

2414
02:04:18.279 --> 02:04:22.039
<v Speaker 2>detected substances, doesn't mean that there was five specific substances,

2415
02:04:22.159 --> 02:04:26.159
<v Speaker 2>especially where there was a metabolite detected. Correct I guess that.

2416
02:04:26.920 --> 02:04:28.960
<v Speaker 21>I'm not sure I follow your question again, that's okay.

2417
02:04:31.359 --> 02:04:35.359
<v Speaker 2>As far as these particular items or these particular substances

2418
02:04:35.399 --> 02:04:38.279
<v Speaker 2>that were detected in these screens, weren't able to provide

2419
02:04:38.319 --> 02:04:43.880
<v Speaker 2>any further information for final review other than they were detected, correct,

2420
02:04:44.880 --> 02:04:46.520
<v Speaker 2>thank you. Nothing further.

2421
02:04:50.199 --> 02:04:53.960
<v Speaker 5>Basically, as the court knows, we agree to this, We

2422
02:04:54.119 --> 02:04:56.680
<v Speaker 5>stipulate to all of this. As far as the blood

2423
02:04:56.720 --> 02:04:59.439
<v Speaker 5>that chain, the custody, the testing, you didn't have any

2424
02:04:59.520 --> 02:05:01.880
<v Speaker 5>problems with the quality of.

2425
02:05:01.960 --> 02:05:03.439
<v Speaker 3>The testing, right, It was good test.

2426
02:05:03.640 --> 02:05:04.279
<v Speaker 8>It was a good test.

2427
02:05:05.319 --> 02:05:08.720
<v Speaker 5>So and the results that have been described numerous times.

2428
02:05:09.359 --> 02:05:12.640
<v Speaker 5>There's the reference to metabolite and there's five drugs, doesn't

2429
02:05:12.680 --> 02:05:14.880
<v Speaker 5>mean there's five drugs that could be one drug.

2430
02:05:14.680 --> 02:05:15.439
<v Speaker 3>With a metabolite.

2431
02:05:15.439 --> 02:05:17.600
<v Speaker 5>All the metabolite means is that it's a breakdown of

2432
02:05:17.720 --> 02:05:21.840
<v Speaker 5>the same drug at some point, right, correct, Like if

2433
02:05:21.880 --> 02:05:25.000
<v Speaker 5>you're smoking marijuana or something you have CABOXI nine or

2434
02:05:25.039 --> 02:05:27.920
<v Speaker 5>whatever they follow, it can be some residue in your blood.

2435
02:05:27.880 --> 02:05:32.000
<v Speaker 3>Right, Yes, the way that from the breakdown, Yes.

2436
02:05:33.960 --> 02:05:38.039
<v Speaker 5>And the lab the console was referring to again would

2437
02:05:38.079 --> 02:05:42.560
<v Speaker 5>be the is it the n MS lab. You're familiar

2438
02:05:42.600 --> 02:05:46.079
<v Speaker 5>with that and that lab does exist. Yes, yeah, and

2439
02:05:46.119 --> 02:05:47.840
<v Speaker 5>what does that mean? Do you know what n MS means?

2440
02:05:47.920 --> 02:05:49.439
<v Speaker 5>Is like national something?

2441
02:05:49.760 --> 02:05:51.439
<v Speaker 8>I'm not familiar with the acronym.

2442
02:05:51.640 --> 02:05:55.560
<v Speaker 3>All right, thank you, it's all I have. Thanks, thank you,

2443
02:05:55.880 --> 02:05:56.680
<v Speaker 3>we said thank you.

2444
02:05:57.319 --> 02:05:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Col Cybaris.

2445
02:06:00.039 --> 02:06:01.520
<v Speaker 4>At this point, I'm gonna ask you to come back

2446
02:06:01.960 --> 02:06:04.359
<v Speaker 4>two o'clock. There's another couple of witnesses.

2447
02:06:04.319 --> 02:06:05.039
<v Speaker 3>We still want.

2448
02:06:05.319 --> 02:06:08.840
<v Speaker 4>I'm not even gonna make it spend, but we'll have

2449
02:06:08.840 --> 02:06:10.159
<v Speaker 4>a couple of witnesses this afternoon.

2450
02:06:10.159 --> 02:06:11.079
<v Speaker 3>We'll kind of see where we go.

2451
02:06:11.520 --> 02:06:12.680
<v Speaker 4>Okay, all right, thank.

2452
02:06:12.560 --> 02:06:22.640
<v Speaker 20>You, all right, please sure, all right, so we'll be

2453
02:06:22.800 --> 02:06:25.239
<v Speaker 20>recess on this matter till two o'clock.

2454
02:06:25.439 --> 02:06:26.000
<v Speaker 3>Okay, thank you.

2455
02:06:28.199 --> 02:06:28.840
<v Speaker 9>We're not that.

2456
02:06:28.920 --> 02:06:30.600
<v Speaker 3>This is the Bringham A woman's.

2457
02:06:34.199 --> 02:06:38.119
<v Speaker 7>Policies and procedures were followed in this case and three.

2458
02:06:38.560 --> 02:06:43.000
<v Speaker 7>In addition to forensic scientists, to Alicia Zimmerman being the

2459
02:06:43.079 --> 02:06:47.760
<v Speaker 7>assigned analyst and processing samples associated with case number two

2460
02:06:47.920 --> 02:06:53.039
<v Speaker 7>three DASH zero one eight seven five Core Clancy Laboratory

2461
02:06:53.079 --> 02:06:54.920
<v Speaker 7>staff at the following roles.

2462
02:06:54.680 --> 02:06:55.840
<v Speaker 4>In the testing process.

2463
02:06:56.319 --> 02:07:01.640
<v Speaker 7>A Brittany Massette and Natalie Law conducted screening analysis on

2464
02:07:01.800 --> 02:07:05.760
<v Speaker 7>item one DASH DASH one, which was the heart blood

2465
02:07:05.920 --> 02:07:11.359
<v Speaker 7>of Cora Clancy B Henna Knowles conducted batch review analysis

2466
02:07:11.479 --> 02:07:16.800
<v Speaker 7>of screening tests conducted by Massette and law c. Marissa

2467
02:07:16.920 --> 02:07:21.560
<v Speaker 7>Dreyer and Seth Utter conducted further analysis on items one

2468
02:07:21.720 --> 02:07:27.960
<v Speaker 7>DASH one DASH one. D Emily McCall and Jacob O'Connell

2469
02:07:28.479 --> 02:07:34.920
<v Speaker 7>conducted batch review analysis of testing by Dryer and Utter, respectively. E. T.

2470
02:07:35.079 --> 02:07:39.399
<v Speaker 7>She Washington conducted a technical review of the entire case

2471
02:07:39.840 --> 02:07:43.840
<v Speaker 7>prior to the issuance of Alicia Zimmerman's report, and F.

2472
02:07:44.520 --> 02:07:49.640
<v Speaker 7>Jennifer Mahea documented the measurements of the specimens collected for

2473
02:07:49.840 --> 02:07:55.720
<v Speaker 7>possible post bortem toxicology testing. So that's the stipulation UH

2474
02:07:56.279 --> 02:08:01.199
<v Speaker 7>on Exhibit one A four regarding the test testing related

2475
02:08:01.279 --> 02:08:07.880
<v Speaker 7>to Cora clans. Exhibit one eighty five is a stipulation

2476
02:08:08.239 --> 02:08:14.000
<v Speaker 7>regarding postbortem toxicology testing relating to Dawson clancy and so

2477
02:08:14.319 --> 02:08:14.800
<v Speaker 7>number one.

2478
02:08:15.439 --> 02:08:16.199
<v Speaker 4>In accordance with.

2479
02:08:16.239 --> 02:08:21.520
<v Speaker 7>Laboratory policy and procedure, laboratory staff screen analyze and review

2480
02:08:21.600 --> 02:08:26.119
<v Speaker 7>samples submitted for testing using batch testing processing prior to

2481
02:08:26.279 --> 02:08:29.600
<v Speaker 7>final review and interpretation by the assigned analyst.

2482
02:08:30.279 --> 02:08:30.439
<v Speaker 2>Two.

2483
02:08:31.079 --> 02:08:35.079
<v Speaker 7>All policies and procedures were followed in this case. Three,

2484
02:08:35.680 --> 02:08:39.960
<v Speaker 7>in addition to forensic scientists. I Alicia Zimmerman being the

2485
02:08:40.039 --> 02:08:44.920
<v Speaker 7>assigned analyst and processing samples associated with case number two

2486
02:08:45.079 --> 02:08:49.840
<v Speaker 7>three DASH zero one eight seven four, which was Dawson Clancy.

2487
02:08:50.399 --> 02:08:52.439
<v Speaker 7>Laboratory staff had the following.

2488
02:08:52.239 --> 02:08:54.359
<v Speaker 4>Roles in the testing process. A.

2489
02:08:54.960 --> 02:08:59.800
<v Speaker 7>Brittany Massett and Natalie Law conducted screening analysis on item

2490
02:08:59.840 --> 02:09:04.159
<v Speaker 7>one DASH one DASH one, which was the heart blood

2491
02:09:04.520 --> 02:09:10.039
<v Speaker 7>of Dawson Clancy. B. Hannah Knowles conducted batch review analysis

2492
02:09:10.159 --> 02:09:12.239
<v Speaker 7>of screening tests conducted by.

2493
02:09:12.239 --> 02:09:14.119
<v Speaker 4>Massette and Law. C.

2494
02:09:14.920 --> 02:09:19.720
<v Speaker 7>Marissa Dryer and Seth Utter conducted further analysis an item

2495
02:09:19.800 --> 02:09:25.640
<v Speaker 7>one DASH one DASH one. D Emily McCall and Jacob

2496
02:09:25.720 --> 02:09:33.439
<v Speaker 7>O'Connell conducted batch review analysis of testing by Dryer and Utter, respectfully. E. T.

2497
02:09:33.640 --> 02:09:37.680
<v Speaker 7>She Washington conducted a technical review of the entire case

2498
02:09:38.119 --> 02:09:42.319
<v Speaker 7>prior to the issuance of Alicia Zimmerman's report, and F.

2499
02:09:42.920 --> 02:09:47.960
<v Speaker 7>Jennifer Mahea document documented the measurements of the specimens collected

2500
02:09:48.239 --> 02:09:51.560
<v Speaker 7>for possible post boredem toxicology testing.

2501
02:09:52.039 --> 02:09:52.680
<v Speaker 4>And that's the.

2502
02:09:54.239 --> 02:10:00.279
<v Speaker 7>Exhibit regarding Dawson Clancy. And then the last stipulation at

2503
02:10:00.319 --> 02:10:06.680
<v Speaker 7>this time is Exhibit one eight six, and that stipulation

2504
02:10:06.880 --> 02:10:12.279
<v Speaker 7>is regarding the postmortem toxicology testing of kalum clancy and

2505
02:10:12.680 --> 02:10:17.880
<v Speaker 7>number one. In accordance with laboratory policy and procedures, laboratory

2506
02:10:17.920 --> 02:10:22.600
<v Speaker 7>staff screen analyze and review samples submitted for testing using

2507
02:10:22.720 --> 02:10:25.760
<v Speaker 7>batch testing processing prior to final.

2508
02:10:25.560 --> 02:10:28.720
<v Speaker 4>Review and interpretation by the assigned analyst.

2509
02:10:29.279 --> 02:10:29.439
<v Speaker 3>Two.

2510
02:10:30.319 --> 02:10:33.399
<v Speaker 7>All policies and procedures were followed in this case.

2511
02:10:34.119 --> 02:10:34.359
<v Speaker 3>Three.

2512
02:10:34.880 --> 02:10:39.279
<v Speaker 7>In addition to forensic scientists II Alicia Zimmerman being the

2513
02:10:39.359 --> 02:10:44.119
<v Speaker 7>assigned analyst and processing samples associated with case number two

2514
02:10:44.279 --> 02:10:48.600
<v Speaker 7>three DASH zero two one four, which was for calm clancy,

2515
02:10:49.199 --> 02:10:53.239
<v Speaker 7>laboratory staff had the following roles in the testing process. A.

2516
02:10:53.960 --> 02:10:55.199
<v Speaker 4>Brittany Massett was.

2517
02:10:55.199 --> 02:10:59.720
<v Speaker 7>A screening analyst for item one DASH one DASH one,

2518
02:11:00.279 --> 02:11:04.119
<v Speaker 7>which was blood from Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital in Plymouth.

2519
02:11:05.000 --> 02:11:10.760
<v Speaker 7>B Natalie Law and Marissa Dreyer conducted further analysis on

2520
02:11:10.960 --> 02:11:16.319
<v Speaker 7>item one DASH one dash OH one. C. Hannah Knowles

2521
02:11:16.359 --> 02:11:20.840
<v Speaker 7>and Emily McCall conducted batch review analysis of item one

2522
02:11:20.960 --> 02:11:26.880
<v Speaker 7>DASH one dash OH one. D. Seth Utter conducted analysis

2523
02:11:27.039 --> 02:11:31.199
<v Speaker 7>on item one DASH one dash O seven, which was

2524
02:11:31.279 --> 02:11:36.000
<v Speaker 7>blood from Boston Children's Hospital and one DASH one dash

2525
02:11:36.119 --> 02:11:42.479
<v Speaker 7>OH four, which was urine from Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital, Plymouth. E.

2526
02:11:43.079 --> 02:11:47.840
<v Speaker 7>Nathaniel al Meta conducted batch review analysis on item one

2527
02:11:48.159 --> 02:11:53.720
<v Speaker 7>Dash one Dash O seven, and F. Robert Anderson conducted

2528
02:11:53.840 --> 02:11:59.199
<v Speaker 7>batch review analysis on item one Dash one Dash zero four.

2529
02:11:59.720 --> 02:12:03.399
<v Speaker 7>He also conducted a technical review of the entire case

2530
02:12:03.840 --> 02:12:07.560
<v Speaker 7>prior to the issuance of Alicia Zimmerman's report, and G.

2531
02:12:09.159 --> 02:12:13.920
<v Speaker 7>Jennifer Mahea documented the measurements of the specimens collected for

2532
02:12:14.079 --> 02:12:17.640
<v Speaker 7>possible post bortem poxicology testing.

2533
02:12:18.039 --> 02:12:21.119
<v Speaker 4>So those are the stipulations at this time. Keep it

2534
02:12:21.199 --> 02:12:24.720
<v Speaker 4>in mind. Do you'll have those with you and everything

2535
02:12:24.800 --> 02:12:27.800
<v Speaker 4>that's contained there with you back in the jeri room.

2536
02:12:28.119 --> 02:12:37.279
<v Speaker 17>Okay, all right, come on, thank you? All right, well,

2537
02:12:37.319 --> 02:12:39.000
<v Speaker 17>good afternoon, all.

2538
02:12:39.000 --> 02:12:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, come on, thank you. Could you please tell the

2539
02:12:43.079 --> 02:12:46.079
<v Speaker 2>jurors your first and list name, Alisha Zimmerman. Would you

2540
02:12:46.119 --> 02:12:48.079
<v Speaker 2>mind spelling your last name for the record.

2541
02:12:48.119 --> 02:12:52.399
<v Speaker 10>Z I M M E R M A N N.

2542
02:12:53.119 --> 02:12:53.920
<v Speaker 2>And where do you work?

2543
02:12:54.199 --> 02:12:56.560
<v Speaker 9>I work at the Massachusetts please Crime Lab.

2544
02:12:57.079 --> 02:12:59.079
<v Speaker 2>And where do you work at the crime lab?

2545
02:12:59.279 --> 02:13:00.720
<v Speaker 10>I'm in the tuxcology unit.

2546
02:13:01.079 --> 02:13:02.079
<v Speaker 2>And what's your role there?

2547
02:13:02.479 --> 02:13:03.880
<v Speaker 10>I'm a forensic scientist too.

2548
02:13:04.560 --> 02:13:05.960
<v Speaker 2>How long have you been with the crime lab?

2549
02:13:07.199 --> 02:13:13.319
<v Speaker 9>Since August two? Thousand and fourteen, and in order to

2550
02:13:13.359 --> 02:13:13.760
<v Speaker 9>work in.

2551
02:13:13.840 --> 02:13:18.439
<v Speaker 2>The toxicology unit, did you receive some specialized training and education. Yes.

2552
02:13:18.680 --> 02:13:19.079
<v Speaker 19>I have a.

2553
02:13:19.239 --> 02:13:22.960
<v Speaker 9>Bachelor's of Science some forensic science from the Pennsylvania State University,

2554
02:13:23.359 --> 02:13:26.039
<v Speaker 9>a Masters of Science some forensic science from the Virginia

2555
02:13:26.079 --> 02:13:31.680
<v Speaker 9>Commonwealth University. I also completed the Toxicology sorry Toxicologies Units

2556
02:13:31.840 --> 02:13:36.840
<v Speaker 9>training program, which included wet lab work, literature review, competency exams,

2557
02:13:36.880 --> 02:13:37.680
<v Speaker 9>and written exams.

2558
02:13:38.399 --> 02:13:41.239
<v Speaker 2>And in your role as a forensic scientist too at

2559
02:13:41.279 --> 02:13:44.760
<v Speaker 2>the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab Toxicology Unit, you're familiar

2560
02:13:44.840 --> 02:13:49.520
<v Speaker 2>with the bat review testing. Yes, And as part of

2561
02:13:49.920 --> 02:13:54.680
<v Speaker 2>that process of working the workflow being in batches. Is

2562
02:13:54.680 --> 02:13:58.319
<v Speaker 2>it fair to say, at various points, different members of

2563
02:13:58.680 --> 02:14:01.520
<v Speaker 2>the unit are a science to different tasks within the

2564
02:14:01.640 --> 02:14:06.560
<v Speaker 2>toxicraft unit, and at some point you might be doing

2565
02:14:06.640 --> 02:14:09.079
<v Speaker 2>work on a case where you're actually asked to author

2566
02:14:09.199 --> 02:14:11.039
<v Speaker 2>or report at the end of the testing. Is that

2567
02:14:11.199 --> 02:14:14.079
<v Speaker 2>fair to say? Yes, if you're authorized, and are you

2568
02:14:14.159 --> 02:14:18.520
<v Speaker 2>authorized to issue reports? Yes? And what kind of forensic

2569
02:14:18.840 --> 02:14:22.159
<v Speaker 2>or excuse me, toxicology testing are you authorized to issue

2570
02:14:22.199 --> 02:14:22.640
<v Speaker 2>reports for?

2571
02:14:23.039 --> 02:14:25.840
<v Speaker 10>I'm authorized for post mortem investigation.

2572
02:14:26.359 --> 02:14:30.199
<v Speaker 2>Now as it pertains to post mortem investigation in the

2573
02:14:30.239 --> 02:14:33.880
<v Speaker 2>toxicology unit. Where does the sample? Where do samples come from?

2574
02:14:34.399 --> 02:14:36.720
<v Speaker 9>So the samples are submitted from the Office of the

2575
02:14:36.800 --> 02:14:41.000
<v Speaker 9>Chief Medical Examiner to the Evidence Control unit in Subbarry.

2576
02:14:41.520 --> 02:14:43.399
<v Speaker 10>They then assign a.

2577
02:14:43.560 --> 02:14:47.680
<v Speaker 9>Unique LIMBS number it's the Laboratory Information Management System number

2578
02:14:47.840 --> 02:14:51.479
<v Speaker 9>and a corresponding barcode to the evidence. They then transport

2579
02:14:51.600 --> 02:14:54.880
<v Speaker 9>the evidence to our unit in Maynard. And then we

2580
02:14:55.640 --> 02:15:01.159
<v Speaker 9>put the evidence into our custody sample a sample the

2581
02:15:01.279 --> 02:15:03.239
<v Speaker 9>evidence and assigned testing to it.

2582
02:15:03.880 --> 02:15:07.279
<v Speaker 2>And so when a sample comes to you in a

2583
02:15:07.319 --> 02:15:11.000
<v Speaker 2>post mortem situation, that's because somebody has passed away. Correct, Correct,

2584
02:15:11.279 --> 02:15:14.239
<v Speaker 2>And there doesn't always have to be a corresponding state

2585
02:15:14.319 --> 02:15:16.680
<v Speaker 2>police crime lab investigation.

2586
02:15:17.439 --> 02:15:18.760
<v Speaker 10>No, our cases are separate.

2587
02:15:19.520 --> 02:15:22.479
<v Speaker 2>So your case comes to you and gets a separate

2588
02:15:22.560 --> 02:15:25.199
<v Speaker 2>lab number from the crime lab. Correct, And it also

2589
02:15:25.399 --> 02:15:28.600
<v Speaker 2>is tracked by a lab number or a case number

2590
02:15:28.680 --> 02:15:33.960
<v Speaker 2>from the Medical Examiner's office crest. And so when you

2591
02:15:34.359 --> 02:15:39.039
<v Speaker 2>receive in the post mortem toxicology samples, do you sometimes

2592
02:15:39.119 --> 02:15:40.000
<v Speaker 2>receive blood?

2593
02:15:40.600 --> 02:15:40.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

2594
02:15:41.800 --> 02:15:45.000
<v Speaker 2>At times? Do you also receive urine samples?

2595
02:15:45.279 --> 02:15:45.479
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

2596
02:15:47.039 --> 02:15:52.479
<v Speaker 2>What types of screening test does the post mortem toxicology testing?

2597
02:15:52.600 --> 02:15:56.439
<v Speaker 2>What are the screening tests used? In those instances. Are

2598
02:15:56.479 --> 02:16:00.680
<v Speaker 2>those cases I should say, now when it starts circumstance

2599
02:16:00.800 --> 02:16:04.199
<v Speaker 2>where the discedent or the person who died is a child,

2600
02:16:04.399 --> 02:16:06.720
<v Speaker 2>there are additional screens that can be done. Yes, And

2601
02:16:06.840 --> 02:16:09.319
<v Speaker 2>what's the additional screen? In a child case?

2602
02:16:09.960 --> 02:16:14.399
<v Speaker 9>If the discedent is equal to or less than equal

2603
02:16:14.479 --> 02:16:17.359
<v Speaker 9>to sorry less than are equal to eleven years old?

2604
02:16:17.720 --> 02:16:21.800
<v Speaker 9>We also perform in Eliza pediatric panel, a generally known

2605
02:16:21.840 --> 02:16:26.199
<v Speaker 9>screen for acidic and neutral drugs, and a vitreous chemistry analysis.

2606
02:16:27.159 --> 02:16:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Now, in cases where your unit receives these samples from

2607
02:16:32.000 --> 02:16:35.239
<v Speaker 2>the medical examiner and a screening test is done, if

2608
02:16:35.719 --> 02:16:39.079
<v Speaker 2>no substance is detected in either of those three screens,

2609
02:16:39.719 --> 02:16:43.159
<v Speaker 2>or if in a pediatric case that fourth screen, what happens.

2610
02:16:43.040 --> 02:16:44.959
<v Speaker 10>No further testing is performed, and so.

2611
02:16:45.200 --> 02:16:49.079
<v Speaker 2>If you are the reporting analyst in those cases, you

2612
02:16:49.120 --> 02:16:52.920
<v Speaker 2>would simply know none detected. Yes, Okay, I'm going to

2613
02:16:53.040 --> 02:16:59.840
<v Speaker 2>draw your attention to a case that was submitted by

2614
02:16:59.879 --> 02:17:03.239
<v Speaker 2>the medical examiner in January of twenty twenty three. I

2615
02:17:03.319 --> 02:17:08.639
<v Speaker 2>think your unit might have reviewed the evidence in February

2616
02:17:08.680 --> 02:17:10.920
<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty three. Are you familiar with the case

2617
02:17:11.000 --> 02:17:15.920
<v Speaker 2>involving three different post mortem toxicology testing, but all related.

2618
02:17:16.920 --> 02:17:19.840
<v Speaker 10>They are three separate reports, right that you're.

2619
02:17:19.680 --> 02:17:23.000
<v Speaker 2>Where that the children that were the subjects were related.

2620
02:17:23.600 --> 02:17:23.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

2621
02:17:24.680 --> 02:17:29.760
<v Speaker 2>So, just referring to first what's identified as the state

2622
02:17:29.840 --> 02:17:36.600
<v Speaker 2>police lab number twenty three DASH two one four to one,

2623
02:17:37.200 --> 02:17:43.239
<v Speaker 2>involving the decendent, Calan Clancy, you recall receiving several items

2624
02:17:43.520 --> 02:17:47.079
<v Speaker 2>in the post mortem toxicology unit to test. Yes, and

2625
02:17:47.239 --> 02:17:51.840
<v Speaker 2>it included toxicology blood that was taken from the Beth

2626
02:17:51.959 --> 02:17:57.239
<v Speaker 2>Israel Deaconess Hospital in Plymouth, Right, is that correct, as

2627
02:17:57.319 --> 02:18:02.360
<v Speaker 2>well as blood that was collected from the Children's Hospital

2628
02:18:03.520 --> 02:18:07.600
<v Speaker 2>in Boston. Yes, and urine also collected from the Beth

2629
02:18:07.760 --> 02:18:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Israel Deaconess Hospital in Plymouth. Yes, And we're screens done

2630
02:18:13.120 --> 02:18:18.200
<v Speaker 2>on the samples, namely the blood from bid Plymouth, the

2631
02:18:18.639 --> 02:18:21.799
<v Speaker 2>urine from bid Plymouth, and the blood from Children's hospital.

2632
02:18:22.479 --> 02:18:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Were any substances detected on those three screens and the

2633
02:18:25.520 --> 02:18:28.079
<v Speaker 2>pediatric screen that you've just described to the jury, No,

2634
02:18:28.200 --> 02:18:32.159
<v Speaker 2>they were not. And as far as the next case,

2635
02:18:32.280 --> 02:18:36.760
<v Speaker 2>which would be Laboratory number twenty three Dish zero one

2636
02:18:36.879 --> 02:18:41.920
<v Speaker 2>eight seven five, the discedent being Cora Clancy, you received

2637
02:18:42.120 --> 02:18:46.159
<v Speaker 2>some heart blood from the medical examiner's office post mortem correct, Yes.

2638
02:18:46.719 --> 02:18:50.399
<v Speaker 2>And as far as that, were those screening tests conducted

2639
02:18:50.639 --> 02:18:53.479
<v Speaker 2>in this case for Cora, Yes? And were there any

2640
02:18:53.639 --> 02:18:54.719
<v Speaker 2>substances detected?

2641
02:18:55.079 --> 02:18:56.360
<v Speaker 10>No, we did not detect anything.

2642
02:18:57.200 --> 02:19:00.239
<v Speaker 2>And as far as laboratory number twenty three dish zero

2643
02:19:00.360 --> 02:19:04.319
<v Speaker 2>one eight seven four, which is the discendent Dawson Clancy,

2644
02:19:04.840 --> 02:19:09.280
<v Speaker 2>your unit received an item one dash one zero one

2645
02:19:09.319 --> 02:19:12.159
<v Speaker 2>of heart blood from Dawson Clancy correct, Yes, and that

2646
02:19:12.280 --> 02:19:13.280
<v Speaker 2>was also post mortem.

2647
02:19:13.440 --> 02:19:13.639
<v Speaker 10>Yes.

2648
02:19:14.280 --> 02:19:17.479
<v Speaker 2>And where those screening tests, those same three tests plus

2649
02:19:17.559 --> 02:19:21.680
<v Speaker 2>the pediatric test run for Dawson correct, Where any substances detected?

2650
02:19:21.920 --> 02:19:22.440
<v Speaker 9>No, they were not.

2651
02:19:22.799 --> 02:19:25.399
<v Speaker 2>And so where in each one of these three separate

2652
02:19:25.479 --> 02:19:27.559
<v Speaker 2>cases there were okay?

2653
02:19:28.159 --> 02:19:31.079
<v Speaker 5>And Marine Hattnett would be classified.

2654
02:19:30.479 --> 02:19:34.360
<v Speaker 22>As what she's a forensic scientist as well, the step

2655
02:19:34.440 --> 02:19:39.719
<v Speaker 22>below me of forensic scientists scientists too, okay, and she's

2656
02:19:40.200 --> 02:19:40.399
<v Speaker 22>is she.

2657
02:19:40.479 --> 02:19:43.680
<v Speaker 5>The one that does testing on objects or items or

2658
02:19:44.120 --> 02:19:46.719
<v Speaker 5>substances to see if there are particular.

2659
02:19:46.319 --> 02:19:48.680
<v Speaker 3>For example, blood, She does do that.

2660
02:19:49.079 --> 02:19:53.360
<v Speaker 22>She is also trained in documentation of blood stains. So

2661
02:19:53.680 --> 02:19:56.840
<v Speaker 22>generally that's why we do a lot of our examination

2662
02:19:57.000 --> 02:20:01.559
<v Speaker 22>through photos. So a forensic friend scientists too could be

2663
02:20:01.639 --> 02:20:04.399
<v Speaker 22>at the scene, do all of the documentation, make sure

2664
02:20:04.479 --> 02:20:07.719
<v Speaker 22>the photos are taken, and then those are examined back

2665
02:20:07.760 --> 02:20:11.600
<v Speaker 22>at the laboratory by a In our case in Massachusetts,

2666
02:20:11.719 --> 02:20:15.719
<v Speaker 22>it's all supervisors in the crime scene response to NET

2667
02:20:15.799 --> 02:20:19.280
<v Speaker 22>that do blood stained pattern analysis. We are also all

2668
02:20:19.399 --> 02:20:25.280
<v Speaker 22>trained in the identification of those biological fluids, doing a

2669
02:20:25.360 --> 02:20:28.280
<v Speaker 22>screening test as well as a confirmatory test for blood.

2670
02:20:29.840 --> 02:20:31.600
<v Speaker 5>I don't want to be referred to as grumpy, but

2671
02:20:31.639 --> 02:20:33.360
<v Speaker 5>I'm just going to ask if you can just kind

2672
02:20:33.399 --> 02:20:35.760
<v Speaker 5>of keep your answers done a little.

2673
02:20:35.520 --> 02:20:41.440
<v Speaker 3>Bit, like maybe a yes and the sentence after that, okay, okay.

2674
02:20:42.559 --> 02:20:46.520
<v Speaker 5>So when you go to a crime scene, you're usually

2675
02:20:46.600 --> 02:20:49.200
<v Speaker 5>with a team in otherwords, like Martine Hautton might be

2676
02:20:49.280 --> 02:20:52.319
<v Speaker 5>there right correct, and other state troopers might be there

2677
02:20:52.399 --> 02:20:54.079
<v Speaker 5>searching the area, right correct.

2678
02:20:55.040 --> 02:20:57.799
<v Speaker 3>And one of the things that you are doing is.

2679
02:20:58.479 --> 02:21:03.959
<v Speaker 5>Relying, if you will, on your associates or other people

2680
02:21:04.000 --> 02:21:07.920
<v Speaker 5>that are working that particular crime scene to do appropriate

2681
02:21:08.079 --> 02:21:11.319
<v Speaker 5>and adequate testing of substances.

2682
02:21:10.799 --> 02:21:11.559
<v Speaker 3>Right correct.

2683
02:21:11.920 --> 02:21:15.559
<v Speaker 5>So, for example, and again when you're investigating on a

2684
02:21:15.680 --> 02:21:20.799
<v Speaker 5>murder case and you're dealing with substances that are deposited.

2685
02:21:20.239 --> 02:21:24.440
<v Speaker 3>For example, in that in the master bid, it's.

2686
02:21:24.399 --> 02:21:29.719
<v Speaker 5>Not appropriate if you will to speculate that something is blood,

2687
02:21:30.000 --> 02:21:31.399
<v Speaker 5>and that's why it's referred to as.

2688
02:21:31.239 --> 02:21:32.120
<v Speaker 3>A red brown stain.

2689
02:21:32.239 --> 02:21:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Right correct?

2690
02:21:33.159 --> 02:21:37.479
<v Speaker 5>Do we use but your experience is such that you

2691
02:21:37.840 --> 02:21:41.559
<v Speaker 5>have a wealth of knowledge as to the ability to

2692
02:21:41.680 --> 02:21:43.520
<v Speaker 5>draw an inference as to what it might be.

2693
02:21:43.680 --> 02:21:48.239
<v Speaker 22>Right, We're not able to look at a red brown

2694
02:21:48.280 --> 02:21:52.040
<v Speaker 22>stain and call it blood. We call it by adjectives,

2695
02:21:52.200 --> 02:21:54.319
<v Speaker 22>so it would be deemed as a red brown stain.

2696
02:21:54.520 --> 02:21:57.799
<v Speaker 22>We have to wait until we do a confirmatory test

2697
02:21:58.440 --> 02:22:02.000
<v Speaker 22>to say whether we call it human blood or not.

2698
02:22:03.319 --> 02:22:06.000
<v Speaker 5>So when you say a confirmatory test, you're referring to

2699
02:22:06.159 --> 02:22:08.639
<v Speaker 5>the fact that because screening tests you can do that

2700
02:22:08.760 --> 02:22:10.680
<v Speaker 5>initially would determine.

2701
02:22:10.280 --> 02:22:13.479
<v Speaker 3>If it's possibly blood, right correct.

2702
02:22:14.120 --> 02:22:16.280
<v Speaker 5>Then it goes to the next phase, which would be

2703
02:22:16.399 --> 02:22:20.840
<v Speaker 5>a confirmatory test, which Miss Heartnett would do right correct,

2704
02:22:21.440 --> 02:22:24.040
<v Speaker 5>And then you go to the determination as to whether

2705
02:22:24.120 --> 02:22:26.879
<v Speaker 5>it's animal or human. It might be a primary blood,

2706
02:22:26.920 --> 02:22:28.399
<v Speaker 5>but it could be a human blood, and then you

2707
02:22:28.600 --> 02:22:30.120
<v Speaker 5>determine that it's human blood.

2708
02:22:30.239 --> 02:22:30.360
<v Speaker 3>Right.

2709
02:22:31.280 --> 02:22:35.280
<v Speaker 22>The next step step after Maureene is actual DNA, so

2710
02:22:35.399 --> 02:22:37.879
<v Speaker 22>it will tell you whether it's human or not human,

2711
02:22:38.040 --> 02:22:39.879
<v Speaker 22>and who's blood it actually is.

2712
02:22:40.159 --> 02:22:45.559
<v Speaker 5>Okay, So we know that there was a transfer stain

2713
02:22:46.200 --> 02:22:49.680
<v Speaker 5>from the inside of the house, if you will, onto

2714
02:22:49.799 --> 02:22:53.680
<v Speaker 5>that ledge on the right hand side of the window, right.

2715
02:22:54.159 --> 02:22:55.840
<v Speaker 10>I believe it was on the left hand side.

2716
02:22:56.319 --> 02:23:00.440
<v Speaker 5>Okay, So as you're looking out the window, it's your

2717
02:23:00.559 --> 02:23:03.120
<v Speaker 5>understanding that the smudge, if you will.

2718
02:23:03.479 --> 02:23:06.040
<v Speaker 2>That was on that window was on the left hand side,

2719
02:23:06.040 --> 02:23:10.680
<v Speaker 2>I believe. So. Yeah.

2720
02:23:11.639 --> 02:23:18.399
<v Speaker 3>Exhibit one oh six that shows the first floor window

2721
02:23:18.520 --> 02:23:21.680
<v Speaker 3>right correct, and then further up.

2722
02:23:21.760 --> 02:23:24.840
<v Speaker 2>It shows the second floor right correct.

2723
02:23:25.360 --> 02:23:28.120
<v Speaker 5>So if one was standing on the inside of the

2724
02:23:28.239 --> 02:23:32.120
<v Speaker 5>master bedroom and leaned on it with blood on their

2725
02:23:32.200 --> 02:23:35.360
<v Speaker 5>hand or red substance, it would be on the right

2726
02:23:35.440 --> 02:23:36.639
<v Speaker 5>hand side of that.

2727
02:23:37.120 --> 02:23:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Ledge on the window, right correct.

2728
02:23:39.239 --> 02:23:41.799
<v Speaker 22>The one on the outside was on the right hand side.

2729
02:23:42.000 --> 02:23:43.920
<v Speaker 22>The one on the inside I believe was on the

2730
02:23:44.000 --> 02:23:44.680
<v Speaker 22>left hand side.

2731
02:23:44.799 --> 02:23:47.440
<v Speaker 3>Now you know that that was not testing, right.

2732
02:23:48.239 --> 02:23:49.479
<v Speaker 10>I don't know if it was tested.

2733
02:23:49.879 --> 02:23:51.000
<v Speaker 3>You don't know what it is, right.

2734
02:23:52.079 --> 02:23:53.559
<v Speaker 10>I called it a red brown stain.

2735
02:23:53.879 --> 02:23:56.920
<v Speaker 23>But the bottom line is, from your experience looking at

2736
02:23:57.000 --> 02:24:00.479
<v Speaker 23>that bedroom with all of what you determined in the

2737
02:24:01.639 --> 02:24:05.280
<v Speaker 23>determined in the investigation to be blood, the inference that

2738
02:24:05.399 --> 02:24:06.600
<v Speaker 23>you would draw is.

2739
02:24:06.639 --> 02:24:08.680
<v Speaker 3>That that's blood somebody's hand right.

2740
02:24:08.799 --> 02:24:09.120
<v Speaker 2>Correct.

2741
02:24:11.120 --> 02:24:13.200
<v Speaker 3>So it shows in.

2742
02:24:13.440 --> 02:24:18.280
<v Speaker 5>Exhibit one O five the same window with a little

2743
02:24:18.319 --> 02:24:24.799
<v Speaker 5>hornet ball or that substance that was injected like insulation

2744
02:24:25.280 --> 02:24:28.040
<v Speaker 5>is what I think you described it, that also has

2745
02:24:28.360 --> 02:24:29.879
<v Speaker 5>red brown substance on it.

2746
02:24:29.959 --> 02:24:30.280
<v Speaker 3>Correct.

2747
02:24:30.840 --> 02:24:34.120
<v Speaker 22>I don't know from that picture. I only looked at

2748
02:24:34.159 --> 02:24:36.319
<v Speaker 22>the stain that was on the windowsill, right.

2749
02:24:37.760 --> 02:24:41.479
<v Speaker 3>Did you look at them at all? That object?

2750
02:24:41.559 --> 02:24:42.719
<v Speaker 2>Because I did not?

2751
02:24:43.159 --> 02:24:50.399
<v Speaker 13>Just okay, would you agree that underneath that window would

2752
02:24:50.440 --> 02:24:54.399
<v Speaker 13>be the two equidistance if you will, red brown stains

2753
02:24:54.479 --> 02:24:58.840
<v Speaker 13>on the shingles, right, correct, And that would be an

2754
02:24:58.959 --> 02:25:02.920
<v Speaker 13>object or something that has blood or you don't know

2755
02:25:02.959 --> 02:25:04.440
<v Speaker 13>if it's blooded red brown.

2756
02:25:04.280 --> 02:25:10.479
<v Speaker 3>Steam on hands or something that was a transfer onto

2757
02:25:10.600 --> 02:25:11.399
<v Speaker 3>that side.

2758
02:25:11.200 --> 02:25:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Of the house, right correct.

2759
02:25:19.159 --> 02:25:23.879
<v Speaker 5>Other areas of the bedroom, for example, console showed you

2760
02:25:24.719 --> 02:25:26.959
<v Speaker 5>the door coming into the bedroom and there were two

2761
02:25:27.079 --> 02:25:31.280
<v Speaker 5>brock marks of the red brown stains. You know, those

2762
02:25:31.360 --> 02:25:33.799
<v Speaker 5>were never even tested. I'm just saying this everdicates it

2763
02:25:33.879 --> 02:25:36.719
<v Speaker 5>was never tested. Right, But you're assuming failing that that

2764
02:25:36.799 --> 02:25:37.600
<v Speaker 5>would be blood, right.

2765
02:25:38.079 --> 02:25:40.680
<v Speaker 22>I don't know whether they were tested, but I deemed

2766
02:25:40.760 --> 02:25:44.559
<v Speaker 22>those that they were blood in my examination, and blood

2767
02:25:44.600 --> 02:25:44.879
<v Speaker 22>on the.

2768
02:25:45.200 --> 02:25:48.920
<v Speaker 3>Doorknob itself too, So that from the inside.

2769
02:25:48.440 --> 02:25:51.600
<v Speaker 2>Of the going out right the windowsill.

2770
02:25:52.879 --> 02:25:54.879
<v Speaker 10>I don't know of any red brown stains on the doorknob.

2771
02:25:57.360 --> 02:26:01.799
<v Speaker 3>Now the knife photograph of the Knight, and you call that.

2772
02:26:03.440 --> 02:26:07.639
<v Speaker 5>That has that linear stain that you referred to, that

2773
02:26:07.840 --> 02:26:12.600
<v Speaker 5>you you were able to observe correct, correct, And looking.

2774
02:26:12.440 --> 02:26:17.479
<v Speaker 3>At Exhibit one sixty two, that would show.

2775
02:26:20.879 --> 02:26:24.120
<v Speaker 5>The left side that you were referring to as to

2776
02:26:24.239 --> 02:26:26.879
<v Speaker 5>the red marks or or the blood if you will,

2777
02:26:26.959 --> 02:26:27.719
<v Speaker 5>in the window.

2778
02:26:27.520 --> 02:26:30.159
<v Speaker 22>Right, correct, That was the left side interier of the

2779
02:26:30.200 --> 02:26:31.319
<v Speaker 22>window that I examined to.

2780
02:26:32.479 --> 02:26:34.760
<v Speaker 5>So that would be again drawing an inference, would because

2781
02:26:34.799 --> 02:26:38.239
<v Speaker 5>somewhat conceivable with a person with blood on their hands

2782
02:26:38.319 --> 02:26:41.079
<v Speaker 5>leaning on the window with this portion of the hand out.

2783
02:26:41.120 --> 02:26:43.360
<v Speaker 3>He has this portion of the hand on the inside,

2784
02:26:43.600 --> 02:26:44.959
<v Speaker 3>leaving the transfer.

2785
02:26:44.799 --> 02:26:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Right a hand or some sort of bloody object.

2786
02:26:47.959 --> 02:26:56.079
<v Speaker 5>Yes, and the knife also has the transfer that you

2787
02:26:56.200 --> 02:27:00.399
<v Speaker 5>can see now is that coagulated.

2788
02:26:59.639 --> 02:27:00.479
<v Speaker 1>Blood you know.

2789
02:27:02.680 --> 02:27:03.639
<v Speaker 2>In which area?

2790
02:27:04.200 --> 02:27:06.479
<v Speaker 5>But with a knife, I mean you see that linear line.

2791
02:27:06.600 --> 02:27:09.559
<v Speaker 5>It almost looks like the knife was put down with

2792
02:27:09.760 --> 02:27:13.040
<v Speaker 5>blood on it and then it coagulated or it got sticky,

2793
02:27:13.120 --> 02:27:15.040
<v Speaker 5>I guess, and then it was moved again.

2794
02:27:15.520 --> 02:27:17.600
<v Speaker 12>Is that you wouldn't call it coagulation.

2795
02:27:17.879 --> 02:27:20.719
<v Speaker 2>So if you're referring to the linear line.

2796
02:27:21.799 --> 02:27:26.040
<v Speaker 22>Okay, bloodstained pattern terminology. But they were on top of

2797
02:27:26.360 --> 02:27:28.600
<v Speaker 22>the linear line, all right, And you.

2798
02:27:28.600 --> 02:27:30.719
<v Speaker 5>Would agree with me that one of the inferences that

2799
02:27:31.000 --> 02:27:34.840
<v Speaker 5>would possibly be drawn is that something banged into it

2800
02:27:35.000 --> 02:27:35.639
<v Speaker 5>or moved.

2801
02:27:35.440 --> 02:27:36.120
<v Speaker 3>It one or the other.

2802
02:27:36.920 --> 02:27:39.799
<v Speaker 22>Yes, correct, to get that original linear line, and then

2803
02:27:39.879 --> 02:27:41.479
<v Speaker 22>for the knife to be in a different position.

2804
02:27:41.959 --> 02:27:46.639
<v Speaker 3>Now the photograph in Exhibit five.

2805
02:27:49.520 --> 02:27:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Is the mirror correct?

2806
02:27:52.479 --> 02:27:53.840
<v Speaker 3>And then you were referring to.

2807
02:27:56.360 --> 02:28:05.159
<v Speaker 22>The drip marks on the mirror, so I referred to

2808
02:28:05.239 --> 02:28:08.840
<v Speaker 22>them either as drip stains or spatter stains.

2809
02:28:08.639 --> 02:28:11.600
<v Speaker 13>Because I was not able that would be consistent with

2810
02:28:12.239 --> 02:28:14.399
<v Speaker 13>some type of a highlight movement, would it not?

2811
02:28:14.639 --> 02:28:16.920
<v Speaker 5>I mean the christ is cutting their throat, for example,

2812
02:28:17.000 --> 02:28:20.440
<v Speaker 5>and then cast off into the mirror or leaning I

2813
02:28:20.520 --> 02:28:21.639
<v Speaker 5>guess considered a name.

2814
02:28:22.159 --> 02:28:25.000
<v Speaker 24>So it would be either due to gravity or due

2815
02:28:25.079 --> 02:28:29.760
<v Speaker 24>to blood in flight, So a force applied sending that

2816
02:28:29.840 --> 02:28:34.120
<v Speaker 24>blood to land on there, or drip due to gravity.

2817
02:28:36.079 --> 02:28:37.120
<v Speaker 3>And blood in flight.

2818
02:28:37.639 --> 02:28:39.920
<v Speaker 5>The difference would be that it's cast off. If you

2819
02:28:40.079 --> 02:28:43.000
<v Speaker 5>roll from the knife going in a particular direction towards the.

2820
02:28:43.000 --> 02:28:47.239
<v Speaker 22>Mirror, right, it would be a spatter stain coming off

2821
02:28:47.280 --> 02:28:49.360
<v Speaker 22>of any sort of blood source, whether it be the

2822
02:28:49.399 --> 02:28:52.639
<v Speaker 22>tip of a knife, a cut on the hand, something

2823
02:28:52.760 --> 02:28:53.200
<v Speaker 22>in flight.

2824
02:28:54.200 --> 02:28:56.399
<v Speaker 3>Oh ahead, you think I redirect.

2825
02:29:00.159 --> 02:29:04.600
<v Speaker 25>So you were asked about the documentation and let lit

2826
02:29:04.639 --> 02:29:08.399
<v Speaker 25>of samples of red bround stains at a scene, and

2827
02:29:08.680 --> 02:29:13.879
<v Speaker 25>that there is an initial test done at the scene,

2828
02:29:14.079 --> 02:29:17.079
<v Speaker 25>typically to determine if it might be blood.

2829
02:29:17.159 --> 02:29:21.040
<v Speaker 22>Correct, correct, and that we do a screening test called

2830
02:29:21.159 --> 02:29:26.559
<v Speaker 22>the castel Meyer test, so it identifies possible blood. It

2831
02:29:26.680 --> 02:29:30.200
<v Speaker 22>does not identify whether it's human or animal, though, and.

2832
02:29:31.239 --> 02:29:35.280
<v Speaker 25>When that test is positive, but you have a limited sample,

2833
02:29:35.920 --> 02:29:39.239
<v Speaker 25>you sometimes get the confirmatory step and.

2834
02:29:39.360 --> 02:29:41.719
<v Speaker 1>Send it right to DNA or correct.

2835
02:29:42.239 --> 02:29:45.000
<v Speaker 22>If it's a limited sample, so a smaller stain like

2836
02:29:45.079 --> 02:29:47.639
<v Speaker 22>something like a spatter stain, we may not do the

2837
02:29:47.760 --> 02:29:50.959
<v Speaker 22>in between step, which is our confirmatory test, because we

2838
02:29:51.000 --> 02:29:54.360
<v Speaker 22>don't want to use up any portion that we've collected,

2839
02:29:54.440 --> 02:29:57.440
<v Speaker 22>so we would go right to DNA for that testing

2840
02:29:57.639 --> 02:29:58.840
<v Speaker 22>if it's a smaller sample

2841
02:29:59.280 --> 02:30:01.520
<v Speaker 25>And then the DNA testing can tell you if that

2842
02:30:02.120 --> 02:30:04.559
<v Speaker 25>breadground state is from a human and