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<v Speaker 1>Well whiskey, come and take my pain.

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<v Speaker 2>The moneys all ring Oh don't why think alone when

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<v Speaker 2>you can drink it all In with Ricochet's three Whiskey

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<v Speaker 2>Happy Hour, join your bartenders Steve Hayward, John U and

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<v Speaker 2>the International Woman of Mystery, Lucretia.

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<v Speaker 1>Where this laps it up and live it?

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<v Speaker 2>Ain't you easy on the should tap guy to give me?

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<v Speaker 1>And left that whiskey clone.

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<v Speaker 2>Well the paraphrase Monty Python And now for something completely

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<v Speaker 2>different on the three Whiskey Happy Hour. This week, John

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<v Speaker 2>U is not available to join us, so we have

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<v Speaker 2>a ringer. We have a special guest, and not just

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<v Speaker 2>a special guest, but the proprietor of a rival podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Alex Priu of the New Thinkery. Welcome Alex, how

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<v Speaker 2>are you?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing great, It's great to be here. This is

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<v Speaker 1>a drinking show. But you're not drinking.

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<v Speaker 2>Steve Hi, you know I'm on the road. I forgot

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<v Speaker 2>my flask.

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<v Speaker 1>She drink he put some hair on your head.

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<v Speaker 2>Well at this hotel, this resort hotel I'm staying at.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very fancy and I'm just off the pool where

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<v Speaker 2>there is a bar. So when we're done, I walk

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<v Speaker 2>straight out the door. And then thirty seconds, I'll have

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<v Speaker 2>my Martine Lucretia. How are you if you got a drink?

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<v Speaker 2>Or you do?

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<v Speaker 3>I do? I have? I have scotch now that now

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<v Speaker 3>that I can afford it again, Well, that's good podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Well you know we uh, Lucretia was a pretty stout

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<v Speaker 2>defender of Trump's tariffs. I'm more equivocal about that, and

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<v Speaker 2>Trump removed tariffs on scotch whiskey last.

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<v Speaker 3>Week, so that right, Just just to be nice to

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<v Speaker 3>King Charles.

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<v Speaker 2>We might talk about Trump's speech. I just wrote an

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<v Speaker 2>article about it for our friends with the American Mind,

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<v Speaker 2>because I thought Trump's speech was really quite a mischievous

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<v Speaker 2>and ironic and on borderline esoteric message. But we'll leave

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<v Speaker 2>that for now. Ah So, first of all, Alex, I

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<v Speaker 2>think we want to have you introduce yourself a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit to our listeners. A few obviously like Jack you Pray,

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<v Speaker 2>are familiar with you, but you're well, let's do it

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<v Speaker 2>this way. Let's do personal stuff first, and then I'll

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<v Speaker 2>ask about the new thinkering. And my first question for

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<v Speaker 2>you is how many packs a day do you smoke?

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<v Speaker 2>To keep your heavy smoking deep voice?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I I you know, puberty hit me like

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<v Speaker 1>a ton of bricks when I was young. I started

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<v Speaker 1>shaving in sixth grade. And then when I was in

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<v Speaker 1>high school, I was able to call myself out of

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<v Speaker 1>class and say, ah, yes, this is mister Preu. My

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<v Speaker 1>son has a doctor. So I actually actually quit smoking

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<v Speaker 1>because it made it worse. Oh maybe borderline on intelligible.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so how long ago?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I should say quit a while ago. I wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>smoking cigarettes. I was smoking cigars, and I actually just

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<v Speaker 1>started again. So but but no, I mean, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>just I've been blessed with a voice and a face

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<v Speaker 1>for radio, and so I'm sort of disappointed we're on

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<v Speaker 1>video today.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, give us a little brief, you know, origin

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<v Speaker 2>story of yourself, because I don't actually I haven't paid

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<v Speaker 2>attention to where you went to graduate school or where

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<v Speaker 2>you went to college, what you studied, how you became

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<v Speaker 2>Alex Preu.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, well, I mean I'll skip the meeting and

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<v Speaker 1>copulation of my parents in jump education, which is I.

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<v Speaker 2>Studied the show.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, you know, origins are hard. Do I

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<v Speaker 1>go back to the beginning of all things, you know

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<v Speaker 1>versus welter and waste and then anyways, No, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>I got into political philosophy, and undergrad I went to

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<v Speaker 1>graduate school at Tulane University a brief stand at Saint

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<v Speaker 1>John's University of Connecticut. Undergrad, I wanted to be a doctor.

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<v Speaker 1>They were attached to a good medical program, and then

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<v Speaker 1>I quickly realized it wasn't for me. I was reading

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of dosto Yevsky and Nietzsche in my free time,

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<v Speaker 1>which gives you an act events of my mental state,

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<v Speaker 1>which was not hot I We'll put it like that.

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<v Speaker 1>But I gradually got into Plato and very interested in

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<v Speaker 1>what seemed to me just a brilliant understanding of the

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<v Speaker 1>human being in human psychology, a political, social, and individual level.

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<v Speaker 1>I got into the works of Leo Strauss and also

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<v Speaker 1>of his great student Seth Bennardetti, who was unfortunately dead

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<v Speaker 1>by that time, and so I went to study with

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<v Speaker 1>one of his students, Roni Berger, at Rann University, also

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Welkley, who had came in the same year. So

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<v Speaker 1>from Richard I was able to learn a lot about

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<v Speaker 1>Strauss and Heidiger, which I've actually been using lately because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm working on something on Strauss and Heidiger right now,

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<v Speaker 1>and from I learned a ton on Plato. It was

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<v Speaker 1>my dissertation. Dissertation became my first book, and I wrote

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<v Speaker 1>two more books on Plato, number of articles, et cetera

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<v Speaker 1>on early Greek philosophy. At the same time as I

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<v Speaker 1>went onto the job market. And this is maybe something

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<v Speaker 1>we'll get into, which is, oh, the academy, which is

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<v Speaker 1>one of my favorite things to gripe about, both in

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<v Speaker 1>print and on Twitter. But hit with the job market,

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<v Speaker 1>realizing how the political landscape had really changed things. It

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<v Speaker 1>took me five years to land a good job. I

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<v Speaker 1>ended up at CU Boulder. I was associated a bit

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<v Speaker 1>with the Benson Center, which you were a crucial encoundering

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<v Speaker 1>and for which founding I'm very grateful. And then I

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<v Speaker 1>made my way in and currently am a professor of

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<v Speaker 1>political philosophy at the University of Austin, not being confused

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<v Speaker 1>with the University of Texas at Austin our pale imitator,

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<v Speaker 1>but the University of University. But I'm currently on eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>months of research leave, where I'm back at the Benson

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<v Speaker 1>Center at CU Boulder as a sabbatical scholar and visiting researcher,

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<v Speaker 1>writing on very right topics.

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<v Speaker 2>Do let me have you back up a bit about

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<v Speaker 2>two Lane. I'm a huge ron A Burger fan, and

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<v Speaker 2>I enjoyed the podcast you did, right, I mean, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've met her several times. It turns out she she's

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<v Speaker 2>a fan of my weekend pictures on power Line. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that may be my highest and best use for a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people, but okay, I'll take it. And she

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<v Speaker 2>says that she and her husband that's the first thing

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<v Speaker 2>they do Saturday mornings. Okay, good.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>But Toulane has always been this I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>say outlier, but you know, when you think about the

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<v Speaker 2>world of political philosophy, you think about Chicago, Harvard with Harvey,

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<v Speaker 2>Boston College, Clairemont until they killed the program, if you

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<v Speaker 2>have Dallas right, Hillsdale, I guess in a certain way,

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<v Speaker 2>and people don't normally think of Tulane. And that's because

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<v Speaker 2>it's a philosophy Is it just because it's a philosophy

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<v Speaker 2>department and not part of a politics department or is

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<v Speaker 2>there something else there? And why did you pick Tulane,

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, and not.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, the interest was primarily in Bennadette's works and

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<v Speaker 1>and RNA's sort of masterful treatment of him. She had

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<v Speaker 1>written a few pieces that really just so helpful. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there's East coast trausings, there's West coast trausings, and now

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<v Speaker 1>there's a burgeoning Gulf coast drowsing. And well, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time, Rona got there in the early eighties,

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<v Speaker 1>and then Richard got there in two thousand and seven.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, so for a long time it was just

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<v Speaker 1>Rana there and it was kind of hard to compete.

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<v Speaker 1>I think since then it's become a real home, and

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<v Speaker 1>she has a number of graduate students, and the students

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<v Speaker 1>do really well. I tend to think for all the

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<v Speaker 1>programs out there, it's about the best to engage in

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<v Speaker 1>close reading. I mean, Rana sits there and she reads

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<v Speaker 1>one Patonic dialogue of say, fifty sixty pages over fifteen weeks,

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<v Speaker 1>and she really takes you through the ringer, shows you

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<v Speaker 1>how to notice all the odd details. Doesn't always tell

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<v Speaker 1>you what to do with them, which is good, but

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<v Speaker 1>she trains your eyes, and when you do something wrong

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<v Speaker 1>with it, she tells you why you're wrong, but she

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<v Speaker 1>pushes you off the wrong track. You have to make

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<v Speaker 1>your own way, and so if you really take that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of education seriously, you're going to get a lot

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<v Speaker 1>out of it. At the same time, you know, studying

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<v Speaker 1>with Richard, what always struck me as his amazing talent

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<v Speaker 1>was his ability to enter any of the systems of

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<v Speaker 1>these modern thinkers, whether it's Rousseau or Kant, or Hegel

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<v Speaker 1>or Heideger or a Nietzsche or Strauss himself, just to

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<v Speaker 1>masterfully switch from one to the other. And so you

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<v Speaker 1>really learned what it's like to occupy and think through

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<v Speaker 1>a systematic philosophy, but with an eye to a philosopher's irony,

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<v Speaker 1>which he often finds in these these thinkers. And so

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<v Speaker 1>you really do get two different approaches within the tradition.

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<v Speaker 1>But it is a philosophy program, which is meant it's

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<v Speaker 1>been harder to find jobs traditionally, but with the New

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<v Speaker 1>Civic Center, there's not a lot of philosophy programs that

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<v Speaker 1>want Straussians that very allergic to.

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<v Speaker 2>Them, even someone from Tulane. We're not part of the club.

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<v Speaker 2>You're not part of the Southeastern Conference of Straussian programs.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, exactly, so, you but you do now, I see,

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<v Speaker 1>I was just there and I was very heartened to

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<v Speaker 1>see a lot of the grad students finish up their

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<v Speaker 1>PhDs already have tenure track jobs or good post docs

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<v Speaker 1>at Princeton and other places that show that there's a

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<v Speaker 1>real desire. And these civic institutes have a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>political science PhDs, economists, et cetera, but not a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of philosophers well versed in the traditions and with that

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<v Speaker 1>philosophic training. And so I think it's actually having a

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<v Speaker 1>good sort of run on these these new programs right now.

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia Alex was asking me before we got on the air,

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<v Speaker 2>how you picked your non diplume, and I thought, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to let her tell you that story.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, when when Steve first asked me to come on

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<v Speaker 3>the podcast with him, it was not the three whiskey

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<v Speaker 3>Happy Hour, it was just the what did you call

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<v Speaker 3>power line?

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<v Speaker 1>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>And I was a dean at the time at the

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<v Speaker 3>University of Arizona, and we thought a that it was

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<v Speaker 3>probably not a good idea for me to be the

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<v Speaker 3>outspoken person that I usually am about my political views

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<v Speaker 3>and as the dean, so we decided it'd be fun

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<v Speaker 3>to have a pseudonym, and he wanted to call me

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<v Speaker 3>Professor X and I absolutely despise anything that hints of

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<v Speaker 3>a Marvel movie. Yeah, and so I said, I don't

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<v Speaker 3>want to be Professor X, and off the top of

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<v Speaker 3>my head I had to come.

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<v Speaker 1>Up with something else.

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<v Speaker 3>And I had just been talking with my old mentor

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<v Speaker 3>about some things with some parallels between the rape of

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<v Speaker 3>Lucretia and some biblical things and whatnot. And I decided,

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<v Speaker 3>since Lucretia was the founder of the technically the led

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<v Speaker 3>at least to the founding of the Roman Republic, that

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<v Speaker 3>that would be an appropriate name.

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<v Speaker 1>There we go. Yeah, it's not. I thought it was

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<v Speaker 1>a reference to Lucretius and you are ad and and

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<v Speaker 1>and Steve is void or something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>It's it's that simple.

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<v Speaker 2>So so one more a little bit of history with you,

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<v Speaker 2>Alex is uh your your podcast, which I guess it's

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<v Speaker 2>sort of dormant at the moment because it's just like us,

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<v Speaker 2>it's difficult to get your other two papers together. But

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<v Speaker 2>first of all, the new thinkery, and yet it's almost

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<v Speaker 2>entirely about old books, So that seems a little discordant.

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<v Speaker 2>What's new about the new thinkery?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess there's electricity, there's technology, there's the internet,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the new part. But uh, yeah, it was. We

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<v Speaker 1>were trying to think of something that would uh suggest

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of levity but also the tradition better and

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<v Speaker 1>we thought, well better than the thinkery. Uh, but we

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<v Speaker 1>were not the original thinker, So we have to go

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<v Speaker 1>with the new the new think from Aristot.

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<v Speaker 3>What would argue or could easily argue that anybody talking

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<v Speaker 3>about philosophic topics and hearkening back to real classical interpretations

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<v Speaker 3>of real classical books actually is very very new and

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<v Speaker 3>novel right now?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Well, yes, I mean this is Isn't this often

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<v Speaker 1>the case with conservatives that you're you seem to be

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<v Speaker 1>part of the old guard, but you're actually very much

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<v Speaker 1>like what could be more cutting edge than then, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know, not not transing yourself or something like that. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>Like it's everywhere believing in natural law, I know, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean believing in anything before like twenty fifteen or twenty nineteen.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess was, yeah, right, that's that's completely off your

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<v Speaker 1>rockers these days.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then how did you so? Your Your two

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<v Speaker 2>co hosts were Greg mcbraer, who's now the provost at

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<v Speaker 2>astron University, The poor Man, but he's going. He's going.

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<v Speaker 1>He's going to be a assistant or associate director at

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<v Speaker 1>the new Civic Center at Miami under Flag Taylor. So

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<v Speaker 1>he's moving on in Ohio.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, the univer of Miami of Ohio. Oh yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that. And then David Barr was the

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<v Speaker 2>third one who I don't know. I know David a

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<v Speaker 2>little and he was at the Claremont Institute for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>And how did you get to know those two guys

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<v Speaker 2>and start us up.

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<v Speaker 1>In the first place. So when I was at Saint John's,

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<v Speaker 1>David popped into my class. He was just said it

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<v Speaker 1>was a fellow student. And immediately after the after seminary gatherings,

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<v Speaker 1>we'd be having you know, beers and eating food, and

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<v Speaker 1>we both caught each other, as you know, poor students,

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<v Speaker 1>smuggling beers and our jacket said, I think I liked

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<v Speaker 1>the cut of this guy's jip. And so we got

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<v Speaker 1>we got to know each other. Now he was a

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<v Speaker 1>student at the University of Maryland of Charles Butterworth. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>great translator, interpreter of medieval thought also but I'm known

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<v Speaker 1>very much for his translations of Frabbi of airways et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I went to sit in on a class

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<v Speaker 1>and Greg was a graduate student at the University of

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<v Speaker 1>Maryland under Butterworth, and so I got to meet him

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit there. But then over the years, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I think we were all together at a bachelor party

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<v Speaker 1>or two, and and then you know, we had a

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<v Speaker 1>text threat. And you know, I had thought about starting

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<v Speaker 1>a podcast or some kind of online magazine, kind of

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<v Speaker 1>journal that's kind of centered on philosophy, but a little

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<v Speaker 1>more loose without all the academic structures. And when COVID hit,

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<v Speaker 1>we decided, let's just record conversations and it became weekly

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<v Speaker 1>and uh uh it did well for a niche, and

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<v Speaker 1>we just kind of brought our banter from text messages,

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<v Speaker 1>took out all the stuff that we get you immediately

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<v Speaker 1>canceled and and uh, you know, turned it into a

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<v Speaker 1>podcast and and it worked well because there was a

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<v Speaker 1>genuine friendship right now, the genuine friendship was eroded by

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<v Speaker 1>the routineness of it. And now we all bid each

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<v Speaker 1>other and each other behind wells, which if you keep

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<v Speaker 1>if you keep having me on, that'll happen here too.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we probably, I mean, you know, we we we

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<v Speaker 2>abused John you ritually, which I think is why he

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<v Speaker 2>is suddenly he's not available. He's getting tired of his

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<v Speaker 2>being pummeled every week.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh don't, don't even accuse John of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well doesn't. I'll tell you.

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<v Speaker 3>What John doesn't want is a professional podcast. He likes

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<v Speaker 3>the free willing part of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, by the way, quick question and we'll go to

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<v Speaker 2>break alex So Saint John's Napolis. It sounds like that's right, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I say that one of the top five breakfast spots

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<v Speaker 2>in the country, if not the world. There was Ruth

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<v Speaker 2>and Ned's Deli. What's it? The Deli, the Nellie's Deli.

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<v Speaker 2>What's the place down there?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I never really went there.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, so what I did? What I did? I would

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<v Speaker 1>wake up, you know, at the at the early hour

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<v Speaker 1>of eleven a m. And I would go to I

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<v Speaker 1>would go to the coffee shop and I get myself

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<v Speaker 1>a big coffee and go across the street to the

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<v Speaker 1>smoke shop where there was an ornery frenchman ran and

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<v Speaker 1>I would smoke a cigar, do a little reading, have

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<v Speaker 1>my coffee, and then go off to class. And so

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<v Speaker 1>I often skipped breakfast for caffeine and nicotine only right

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<v Speaker 1>and proper.

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<v Speaker 3>All right, you're life that wait before you go on, Alex,

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<v Speaker 3>I haven't told this one in a while, but I

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<v Speaker 3>did quit smoking. Gosh, probably forty years ago now, but

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<v Speaker 3>I started smoking at a very young age. And some

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<v Speaker 3>of my fondest memories the house I grew up in,

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<v Speaker 3>at least my teenage years I spent, had this lovely

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<v Speaker 3>huge picture window overlooking this beautiful valley, and my dad

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<v Speaker 3>and I when I was in college, I would work

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<v Speaker 3>at his glass company, and so we would get up

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<v Speaker 3>very early, you know, to be to work by six

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<v Speaker 3>in the morning, and we'd sit and watch the sun

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<v Speaker 3>come up over the valley in this picture window, and

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<v Speaker 3>we would have what my dad would call a horse breakfast,

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<v Speaker 3>which was two cups of coffee and three cigarettes. Some

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<v Speaker 3>of my fondest memories.

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<v Speaker 1>Ever other day, you know, one of my fondest memories

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<v Speaker 1>from when he was when I was a kid, was

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<v Speaker 1>when he would get frustrated with my mother. He would

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<v Speaker 1>go to the kitchen with a cigarette, turn on the

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<v Speaker 1>stove and light the cigarette from the stove. Oh God,

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<v Speaker 1>that was the coolest thing he ever did.

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<v Speaker 3>So because I know Steve was going to go there

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<v Speaker 3>at some point. What did you think about all of

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<v Speaker 3>those incredibly gorgeous Persian women lighting their cigarettes on the

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<v Speaker 3>burning picture of Komani? That was just like, that was

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<v Speaker 3>my feminist moment. I've never been a feminist my whole life,

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<v Speaker 3>but I was cheering those women on. That was the

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<v Speaker 3>coolest thing I think I ever saw.

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to do that. I got to go look

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<v Speaker 1>at you didn't see that?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. You know he's busy translating. So what

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<v Speaker 2>listeners should know? I think? You know this Lucretia is

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<v Speaker 2>alex Is. Are you half Iranian?

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<v Speaker 1>I think by Hakarani? Yeah, my mother's from Iran.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, yeah, he may come back to all that

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<v Speaker 2>after we take a quick ad break. Care the three

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<v Speaker 2>whiskey happy Era will be right back. All right, Let's

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<v Speaker 2>turn to the subject that's on all of our minds.

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<v Speaker 2>But you've done more work on it, I think than

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<v Speaker 2>we have, Alex And that's the state of the humanities

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<v Speaker 2>and higher education, among other things. Quick story for you.

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<v Speaker 2>It came back to me as I was reading that

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<v Speaker 2>Compact magazine piece about if you want to study the

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<v Speaker 2>humanities or read English literature, don't go to graduate school.

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<v Speaker 2>Good advice. I think. I remember back in the seventies

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<v Speaker 2>when I was in college and a friend of mine,

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<v Speaker 2>who I think was going to USC, back when it

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<v Speaker 2>was purely a party school, told me the story of

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<v Speaker 2>a class one day when in the seventies.

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<v Speaker 3>What okay, sorry, go ahead. Wells like it's become a

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<v Speaker 3>beacon of intellectual activity or something in recent years.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I agree with you. Have you seen what the

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<v Speaker 2>admission radio is now at USC and what its rankings are?

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<v Speaker 2>It's preposterous, but that may be part of the subject too. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>friend of mine plosophy class said the professor was talking

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<v Speaker 2>about Aristotle, and some blonde girl in the back says,

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't he into shipping? And Professor's thinking, you know the punchline,

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<v Speaker 2>don't you. The professor's thinking that I missed something. Was

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<v Speaker 2>there a treatise? Was there somewhere in one of his

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<v Speaker 2>books where he wrote about voter sailing? And turned out

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<v Speaker 2>it turned out no, you know married you know Jackie Kennedy,

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<v Speaker 2>And he realized the lady thought Aristotle was Aristotle Onathis.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the sort of ignorance we had, And now it's

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<v Speaker 2>probably even worse. So let's see, let's try this. I

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<v Speaker 2>think you have got a book almost done or close

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<v Speaker 2>to being published or something on this.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got a book. It's in manuscript Forum. It's with

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<v Speaker 1>a publisher being reviewed on sort of the state of

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<v Speaker 1>the Academy, how to fix it. But it's actually pretty broad.

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<v Speaker 1>It starts with a sense of crisis, but it goes

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<v Speaker 1>through the ideological battles of the last century or so

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<v Speaker 1>really sort of you know, American and French revolutions, but

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<v Speaker 1>then you get the Industrial Revolution. You get suddenly the

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<v Speaker 1>three major ideologies have the equipment necessary to propagate themselves

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<v Speaker 1>and also to institute their schemes, and it sort of

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<v Speaker 1>lays those out from the standpoint of political psychology, arguing

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<v Speaker 1>broadly for a kind of platonic perspective, but in not

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<v Speaker 1>being so direct in that way. The second chapter then

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<v Speaker 1>goes back. It goes from political history to something like

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<v Speaker 1>philosophic history, to the modern revolution what I call the

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<v Speaker 1>modern conspiracy, starting from Machiavelli, and tries to lay out

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<v Speaker 1>how we got this place. And it's basically a kind

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<v Speaker 1>of sweeping history of modernity, but the main thrust of it,

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<v Speaker 1>and we could get into this a little bit if

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<v Speaker 1>you want to, but the main thrust of it is

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<v Speaker 1>how we got to have these kind of chaotic education

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<v Speaker 1>institutions we have, which are a weird mixture of medieval

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<v Speaker 1>kind of study, really small, right, but it's still there

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<v Speaker 1>in little vestigial forms, at least in the mottos on

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<v Speaker 1>the buildings that nobody knows how to translate anymore. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And then you know there's a business interest, technological interests

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<v Speaker 1>from early modernity. There's an ideological pressure from the left

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<v Speaker 1>that's very well sort of cataloged. And then there's also

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<v Speaker 1>just the kind of its market pressures, right, dumbing everything

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<v Speaker 1>down so they can get the students. And what happens

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<v Speaker 1>when you have a the peak of education, or what

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<v Speaker 1>ought to be the peak of education, is so chaotic

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<v Speaker 1>and contradictory, is that everything that's downstream from that, which

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<v Speaker 1>is the regime, becomes chaotic and contradictory. You get the

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<v Speaker 1>regime you earn by the citizens or subjects I would

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<v Speaker 1>argue that you make. So the third chapter goes into

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<v Speaker 1>the chaos of the education institutions, students, faculty, administrators, and

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<v Speaker 1>the fourth chapter so that's more like social criticism and

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<v Speaker 1>the fourth chapter is kind of like bird's eye view

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<v Speaker 1>public policy, not really concerned with the nuts and bolts

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<v Speaker 1>of it, but in broad sweeps, how do you start

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about universities differently so that you can fix them?

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<v Speaker 1>So this has been something I've been meditating about a while,

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<v Speaker 1>drawing a lot from my experience being disgruntled within the academy,

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<v Speaker 1>but seeing on the ground what's happening with civic institutes,

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening at UATX, the things I think we're doing

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<v Speaker 1>that are genuinely innovative and should be a model for

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<v Speaker 1>other institutions.

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<v Speaker 2>Right wow, Okay, Well there's a lot there that sounds

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<v Speaker 2>very original to me. First of all, you know, most

420
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.200
<v Speaker 2>of the books these days, even the best ones, I think,

421
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:39.759
<v Speaker 2>but they tend to start in the sixties when things

422
00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:41.240
<v Speaker 2>really do go bad. It sounds like you have a

423
00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:43.880
<v Speaker 2>much longer range view of this, I think.

424
00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:48.200
<v Speaker 1>I say, the really fifteen sixties is the latest I'd

425
00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:49.160
<v Speaker 1>go for whateverything was.

426
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, No, I think that's the better because well, the

427
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:59.319
<v Speaker 2>next point to make. As Lucretian, I think that a

428
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:03.000
<v Speaker 2>large part of the problem is simply the triumph of

429
00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:08.839
<v Speaker 2>historicism that has overtaken all the disciplines in humanities, where

430
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:12.920
<v Speaker 2>and everything is the problem of the present horizon, right,

431
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.839
<v Speaker 2>the fact that people don't take well, what was it,

432
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:18.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, Jaffa, not just Jaffa, but others said, you know,

433
00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the study of political philosophy in the forties or thirties, forties,

434
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:26.640
<v Speaker 2>fifties was like a survey of a waxworks museum. You know,

435
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.839
<v Speaker 2>maybe interesting, but not really relevant because it's not from

436
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:32.880
<v Speaker 2>our time. And I just think that makes students think

437
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:38.759
<v Speaker 2>the material is not important, therefore not serious. So you know,

438
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.079
<v Speaker 2>that compact article said don't go to graduate school if

439
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.119
<v Speaker 2>you want to read English literature. Lucretia for years has

440
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.599
<v Speaker 2>been saying, if you want to understand the Constitution, for

441
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.279
<v Speaker 2>God's sake, don't go to law school. Right, isn't that

442
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:53.920
<v Speaker 2>still your view of Lucretia, I think most.

443
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:56.920
<v Speaker 3>Of them, yes, well, absolutely most of them. But actually,

444
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:59.599
<v Speaker 3>whatever you do, don't if you want to study literature

445
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:04.920
<v Speaker 3>any kind, don't ever enroll in an English department, English

446
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.000
<v Speaker 3>major in English graduate school. I just I think I

447
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:13.400
<v Speaker 3>mentioned once that I was looking for outside reviewers for

448
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.880
<v Speaker 3>an English professor we had who was going up for tenure,

449
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.880
<v Speaker 3>and I started and she had this Sorry it was stupid,

450
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:29.519
<v Speaker 3>this stupid focus on technology in Shakespeare whatever. I didn't

451
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.359
<v Speaker 3>and it made no sense to me. But so I was,

452
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.759
<v Speaker 3>you know, the good dean that I was. I was

453
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.200
<v Speaker 3>trying to find reviewers who would be you know, sympathetic,

454
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:42.680
<v Speaker 3>but at the same time had good reputations. And god,

455
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:48.519
<v Speaker 3>when I started looking into what populated English departments, I just,

456
00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:53.279
<v Speaker 3>I mean I almost became physically ill. And never mind

457
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.400
<v Speaker 3>what they did to Shakespeare and critical race theory and

458
00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:03.440
<v Speaker 3>LGBTQ queer plus US and you know, it's just there

459
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.400
<v Speaker 3>was no English anywhere. There was no there was nothing

460
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.799
<v Speaker 3>I mean anyway. So, and that was ten years ago,

461
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:17.680
<v Speaker 3>almost now, probably five ten years I once saw, I

462
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:22.599
<v Speaker 3>once read an article on that argued that Caliban.

463
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:24.279
<v Speaker 1>Was falsely used.

464
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm not here right like like a like a.

465
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:32.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, a Victorian George Floyd or something like that.

466
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.319
<v Speaker 1>It was absolutely bonkers. It was the worst argue. Yeah,

467
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:37.720
<v Speaker 1>and it was obviously fitting a narrative, that's what you get.

468
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've read if you're lucky, Yeah, for my sins,

469
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I've read a couple of feminist takes on Shakespeare that

470
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.279
<v Speaker 2>are well, they're written in the usual jargon of you know,

471
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.119
<v Speaker 2>critical theory, and so they're almost unreadable and so unremittingly stupid,

472
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.920
<v Speaker 2>as someone here might say, uh, you know Gary. So

473
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you're familiar with Gary Saul Morrison,

474
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:02.200
<v Speaker 2>who teaches Russian literature Northwestern. So two interesting things. One is,

475
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 2>his classes are hugely popular. I think maybe he's the

476
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:09.880
<v Speaker 2>preeminent American specialist in Russian literature. And second, he was

477
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:11.920
<v Speaker 2>telling me, so, you know, he gets classes with free, you.

478
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:14.839
<v Speaker 3>Real Russian literature like Dostoevsky and.

479
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh yeah, okay, yeah, all those right, Tolstoy, the

480
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.960
<v Speaker 2>the you know, the classics, right, he was telling me.

481
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.799
<v Speaker 2>I had dinner with him once ten years ago, and

482
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Dan Lowenstein at UCLA put us together for dinner. Lucretian

483
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:29.279
<v Speaker 2>knows Dan a little bit, and he was telling us

484
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:33.279
<v Speaker 2>that the political no, the English department, he's part of

485
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:35.960
<v Speaker 2>the you know, the languages department, they won't give him

486
00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:38.640
<v Speaker 2>any graduate students as teaching assistants because they don't like

487
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.039
<v Speaker 2>his politics and they don't like his popularity, I think,

488
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:43.440
<v Speaker 2>even more than his politics, which aren't that overt really.

489
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:46.359
<v Speaker 2>He writes for commentary now and then, but U and

490
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:49.000
<v Speaker 2>so he has to get teaching assistance from the political

491
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:52.680
<v Speaker 2>science department for a course on Russian literature, which I mean,

492
00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:54.680
<v Speaker 2>you and I could squeeze that in easily enough, but

493
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.759
<v Speaker 2>it's still an interesting thing.

494
00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:02.759
<v Speaker 3>I've read in a political science independent study class. I

495
00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:06.079
<v Speaker 3>read all the Russian novels, and I have to tell

496
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.519
<v Speaker 3>you that I once on a Friday night, read the

497
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:15.359
<v Speaker 3>entire Idiot The Idiot until the wee hours of the morning.

498
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:19.119
<v Speaker 3>And that was forty some years ago, and to this

499
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:24.000
<v Speaker 3>day I can remember the horror of waking up from

500
00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:28.759
<v Speaker 3>the most incredibly awful nightmare I had ever had and

501
00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.839
<v Speaker 3>have ever had since in my life. There was just

502
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:35.359
<v Speaker 3>something about going down into that abyss with Dostavskan coming

503
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:38.200
<v Speaker 3>back out, But in my nightmare, I didn't come back out,

504
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.279
<v Speaker 3>and I've never forgotten that. So, you know, the idea

505
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:44.680
<v Speaker 3>that they could just turn Russian literature or Shakespeare or

506
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.680
<v Speaker 3>anything else into nonsense just makes me sick.

507
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:48.519
<v Speaker 2>I hate you.

508
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:50.359
<v Speaker 3>I hate English professors.

509
00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:53.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, for for what it's worth, Alex. You know,

510
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:56.759
<v Speaker 2>our mutual teacher, Harry Jaffa did a long lecture on

511
00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.839
<v Speaker 2>Dostoyevsky once which he gave a Hillsdale College around nineteen.

512
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:02.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure it was ever published in print, but

513
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:05.440
<v Speaker 2>you can find the you know, the tape of the

514
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Speaker 2>lecture on the Hillsdale website somewhere. It's quite interesting. That

515
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.440
<v Speaker 2>sounds interesting, Yeah, it is. It was very interesting to

516
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:16.799
<v Speaker 2>listen to. Now, I think I want to take an

517
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:18.480
<v Speaker 2>und break real quick because we got a little bit

518
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:20.720
<v Speaker 2>out of phase. But when we come back, Alex, I

519
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.319
<v Speaker 2>want to ask you for step one on your path

520
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:25.920
<v Speaker 2>to recovery for higher education. So don't go eight. The

521
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:34.640
<v Speaker 2>three whiskey happy hour will be right back. So, Alex,

522
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:37.720
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned that you're very capacious sounding book that I

523
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.839
<v Speaker 2>can't wait to read. I may flog the manuscript out

524
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:44.119
<v Speaker 2>of you at some point. Is you know, ideas for

525
00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:47.279
<v Speaker 2>the way back? So what's step one? And maybe the

526
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:48.759
<v Speaker 2>next two or three after that too?

527
00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:52.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So I mean, let me let me in answering

528
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.480
<v Speaker 1>that question. Let me just offer a kind of way

529
00:28:55.519 --> 00:29:00.079
<v Speaker 1>to think about modernity and about modern institutions. Right, So,

530
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.680
<v Speaker 1>manchi Vellu gave a very vivid image for how he

531
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:08.240
<v Speaker 1>was thinking about politics, which is there is a torrent,

532
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.160
<v Speaker 1>an out of control torrent, a flood of human wickedness, right,

533
00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:15.720
<v Speaker 1>and it will tear cities apart and rip up the earth,

534
00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:19.400
<v Speaker 1>he says, right, unless you set up dikes and dams, right,

535
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:24.359
<v Speaker 1>just walls that this torrent has to respond to, so

536
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:28.079
<v Speaker 1>it can be guided safely and soundly to its low

537
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:34.119
<v Speaker 1>but very very concrete end. Right. This is how institutions operate. Right.

538
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.440
<v Speaker 1>You set up and you set up walls, and you say,

539
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:40.559
<v Speaker 1>go at it. Be greedy, do whatever you can to

540
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.640
<v Speaker 1>get rich, whether it's the market or the state. Be ambitious,

541
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:47.440
<v Speaker 1>politically ambitious. We have checks and balances, We have certain

542
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:50.079
<v Speaker 1>sort of regulations around the market that make sure it

543
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.599
<v Speaker 1>has basic fairness. And then you go out and you

544
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.759
<v Speaker 1>will maximize productivity. And if politicians can't agree on what's

545
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:59.359
<v Speaker 1>a sensible policy, they'll just cancel each other out and

546
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:02.559
<v Speaker 1>we'll get a still which is much better than the alternative,

547
00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:07.119
<v Speaker 1>which is active idiocy, right, which is too often what's

548
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:12.319
<v Speaker 1>pa all the ancient republics, right as the moderns well understood. Right.

549
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.279
<v Speaker 1>So the problem with that, though, is that you turn

550
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:21.880
<v Speaker 1>human beings into very greedy, selfish and narrowly ambitious people. Right.

551
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.680
<v Speaker 1>And so what we want, what I propose is thinking

552
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.640
<v Speaker 1>about dikes and dams that don't just direct the torrent

553
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.960
<v Speaker 1>of human wickedness downward, but maybe upwards a little bit.

554
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Right?

555
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Is there a way to incentivize thinking, thinking about institutions

556
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.720
<v Speaker 1>that move people in the right direction? And there are

557
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:47.799
<v Speaker 1>ways to do this, I think, especially with education institutions.

558
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:53.400
<v Speaker 1>So taking this image of institutions, right, So let me

559
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.720
<v Speaker 1>give another image, just to make this a bit more concrete.

560
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:58.839
<v Speaker 1>Think about an engine, a car engine. Right, you're driving

561
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:02.720
<v Speaker 1>down the highway. You're going going seventy eighty miles an hour.

562
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.920
<v Speaker 2>And and uh in ninety a fairy of lucretia.

563
00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:08.400
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you.

564
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:10.160
<v Speaker 3>You know you're twenty seven.

565
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:14.160
<v Speaker 1>The other day one and seven were driving.

566
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:23.559
<v Speaker 3>There's a stretch of road that is essentially a frontage road,

567
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.000
<v Speaker 3>but it goes off and so it's not very well

568
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:28.680
<v Speaker 3>populated and a huge long straight away.

569
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.240
<v Speaker 2>I think you said, what are you driving? You just

570
00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:31.640
<v Speaker 2>say where?

571
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Oh what?

572
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:33.200
<v Speaker 3>I drive a Tesla?

573
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh there you go?

574
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:35.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anyway, sorry, I.

575
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:38.599
<v Speaker 1>Just saw a studio of mine in the chat. How

576
00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:41.240
<v Speaker 1>are you doing it? It's good, okay, So think about

577
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:44.240
<v Speaker 1>it like this. You're driving your car. There's thousands of

578
00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:47.759
<v Speaker 1>explosions happening just like a two feet from your face

579
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:50.559
<v Speaker 1>in this engine and you're hurling, but you feel safe,

580
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:53.720
<v Speaker 1>right because you know that engine will contain the explosions,

581
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.599
<v Speaker 1>the fuel tank's not going to explode randomly. You trust

582
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:02.079
<v Speaker 1>in the engineering, helltho you? Yeah, you don't. Honestly, I

583
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:08.799
<v Speaker 1>think I think more teslas in getting gulfed in than that. Yeah. Anyways,

584
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:11.200
<v Speaker 1>trust you trust that this is going to work right.

585
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:15.799
<v Speaker 1>Similarly with institutions. But the problem is, human beings are

586
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:18.960
<v Speaker 1>not just fuel. Yeah, we can be irritated, set on fire,

587
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.640
<v Speaker 1>and we'll go out there and we'll find a way

588
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.359
<v Speaker 1>to make a buck, right. But the problem is is

589
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.200
<v Speaker 1>we don't always feel good about it, right, And so

590
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.079
<v Speaker 1>we have to educate those moral sentiments and we have

591
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:32.880
<v Speaker 1>to direct people to take them seriously. So what's wrong

592
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.799
<v Speaker 1>with education institutions, probably especially higher education. Well, we've talked

593
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:40.240
<v Speaker 1>about lower lower standards, right, We've talked about a lack

594
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.240
<v Speaker 1>of historical literacy. Right. So one of the things we've

595
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:46.440
<v Speaker 1>done at the University of Austin is that every student

596
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:50.200
<v Speaker 1>has to take a core curriculum. Every single grade in

597
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:53.000
<v Speaker 1>that core curriculum is ai proof to I think something

598
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:56.119
<v Speaker 1>like eighty percent very high percent, which means you can

599
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:58.799
<v Speaker 1>be certain that and we're also anti grade inflation.

600
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:01.759
<v Speaker 3>Okay, what was the thing you said before?

601
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:05.519
<v Speaker 1>A I proved right, So I proved yeah, so you

602
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.200
<v Speaker 1>know that. So just to give a simple example, just

603
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:10.519
<v Speaker 1>have essay exams. Have three hour essay exams. You have

604
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:13.240
<v Speaker 1>to sit down, you get a question you haven't heard before,

605
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:16.799
<v Speaker 1>that's what my h my preference, and you sit down

606
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and you have to actually work out that question of

607
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:19.480
<v Speaker 1>three hours.

608
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:20.680
<v Speaker 3>It's like we did in the old days.

609
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.519
<v Speaker 1>Just like we did in the old days, right, And

610
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.920
<v Speaker 1>so that's what I was trained to do since middle school.

611
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.359
<v Speaker 1>And this is what students ought to be doing from

612
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:32.039
<v Speaker 1>very young. So if you do that and then you say, okay,

613
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:35.039
<v Speaker 1>you're we're not having great inflation. This is an actual

614
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>measure of your knowledge and your abilities. And on top

615
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:42.400
<v Speaker 1>of that, your access to university resources will be dependent

616
00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.400
<v Speaker 1>on your rank in the class. So one policy we've

617
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.880
<v Speaker 1>had is that if we have a let's say you

618
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:53.720
<v Speaker 1>have a startup idea and we have a wealthy venture capitalist.

619
00:33:54.319 --> 00:34:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Sounds redundant, but never met a down on can probably

620
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:02.759
<v Speaker 1>not be a venture capitalist anymore. But you've got a

621
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.680
<v Speaker 1>wealthy venture capitalcies interested and guess what, only the top

622
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.519
<v Speaker 1>GPAs get to go there. Those are concrete sort of walls.

623
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:13.159
<v Speaker 1>Let's say, if you want access, if you want the degree,

624
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:15.199
<v Speaker 1>first of all, but also if you want access, you

625
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:17.920
<v Speaker 1>need to be doing the right things. If you start

626
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:22.199
<v Speaker 1>thinking about educational institutions in this way, you can revitalize

627
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:29.000
<v Speaker 1>and incentivize historical literacy, right, institutional literacy just understanding how

628
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.119
<v Speaker 1>we got where we are, why it's sensible, what the

629
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:33.519
<v Speaker 1>limits are of what we're doing, and you can then

630
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:36.559
<v Speaker 1>take the most ambitious students, make sure that they have

631
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:39.440
<v Speaker 1>that background knowledge, but then also give them access to

632
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:43.239
<v Speaker 1>real opportunities. If you start thinking about institutions in that way,

633
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:47.559
<v Speaker 1>you'll you'll start producing much better citizens and leaders. Right.

634
00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:52.960
<v Speaker 1>So that's just a single example that gives you a

635
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:55.960
<v Speaker 1>kind of general sense of how I'm thinking about this conceptually.

636
00:34:56.519 --> 00:35:00.679
<v Speaker 3>Another word devil's advocate for a moment to things on that.

637
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:06.760
<v Speaker 3>Number one, the problem with sort of putting Machiavelli in

638
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:10.039
<v Speaker 3>the terms that you did is that this is the

639
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:12.559
<v Speaker 3>problem with the Machiavelli, not you, and that is that

640
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:18.199
<v Speaker 3>somehow you've got ends that are defined by nothing that

641
00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.239
<v Speaker 3>leads me to my second problem with what you said,

642
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:26.920
<v Speaker 3>which is the left has successfully done everything you say

643
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:31.119
<v Speaker 3>in a perfectly Machiavellian way, which is to say, they

644
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:35.800
<v Speaker 3>have taken over educational institutions. They have to what purpose.

645
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:40.360
<v Speaker 3>It's not entirely clear, because there is no end for

646
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:48.639
<v Speaker 3>the right thinking leftist, but they have been so successful

647
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:56.320
<v Speaker 3>at destroying the ability of students to think, at the

648
00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:59.679
<v Speaker 3>ability of students to write. They have been so successful

649
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:04.400
<v Speaker 3>all the way down to pre school that I am

650
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:08.880
<v Speaker 3>not sure unless we can sort of begin there rather

651
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:14.239
<v Speaker 3>than with right thinking, intelligent graduate students. I really am

652
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:16.639
<v Speaker 3>playing Devil's advocate a little bit because I'm not quite

653
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:20.719
<v Speaker 3>as it's pessimistic about this. But at the same time,

654
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:26.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, I have students who really cannot form a sentence.

655
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.320
<v Speaker 3>Now they can because they have AI, of course, but well,

656
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:34.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, and and they have this zero, absolutely zero

657
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:36.440
<v Speaker 3>historical knowledge.

658
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:37.760
<v Speaker 1>You know.

659
00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:43.840
<v Speaker 3>No, they're smart, but they're so poorly educated for so

660
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:47.599
<v Speaker 3>long that I don't know what you do about it.

661
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:49.960
<v Speaker 1>This is your your This is a great question because

662
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:51.800
<v Speaker 1>you're you're forcing me to bring a lot more into this,

663
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.039
<v Speaker 1>and let me just hit a couple bullet points that

664
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:56.639
<v Speaker 1>I think we'll address a few things that you said first.

665
00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:00.360
<v Speaker 1>First thing you said about this this question of so

666
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:03.159
<v Speaker 1>I think what you're touching on is the malleability of man,

667
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:05.199
<v Speaker 1>the idea that human beings can be shaped to whatever

668
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.960
<v Speaker 1>end you want, which helps when you think of human

669
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.400
<v Speaker 1>beings as a kind of monad of fear and greed,

670
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:13.960
<v Speaker 1>self interest, right, which is what Machiavelli does, Hobbes does. Right.

671
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.199
<v Speaker 1>They all kind of do this, and then they say, well,

672
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 1>taking man singularly, we can kind of build institutions around them.

673
00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:24.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm heartened by the fact that as theoretical physics seems

674
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:28.039
<v Speaker 1>to sort of not have basic answers to our deepest questions.

675
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:34.079
<v Speaker 1>Is this revival of interest in Stoicism, in traditional Christianity,

676
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:40.199
<v Speaker 1>especially Catholicism, right in pre modern thought generally, It's remarkable

677
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:46.599
<v Speaker 1>to see technologists talking about Xenophon's education of Cyrus, Plutarch,

678
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:49.599
<v Speaker 1>about Marcus Thereli, is about Plato, even as they talk

679
00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:50.880
<v Speaker 1>about Machiavelli and others.

680
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:51.119
<v Speaker 2>Right.

681
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.559
<v Speaker 1>There's a real longing at the heart there, and I

682
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:57.000
<v Speaker 1>think this shows that we're well aware that the attempt

683
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.280
<v Speaker 1>to explain all of human longing, all of human ends

684
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:04.400
<v Speaker 1>in terms of mere matter, emotions, atoms, and void, my

685
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:10.000
<v Speaker 1>feminine lucretius over here. All of that has not really

686
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:14.039
<v Speaker 1>satisfied us deep down. And I think there's a real

687
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.400
<v Speaker 1>sense that there's a limit here, and there's a real hunger.

688
00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:19.960
<v Speaker 1>And I see this from young students, a couple of

689
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.519
<v Speaker 1>whom I see Judah as in the chat here how

690
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:24.920
<v Speaker 1>you doing. I see this from young students that they

691
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:28.960
<v Speaker 1>really do want more. They do want something more, but

692
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:30.760
<v Speaker 1>they want it to be rigorous, and so there's a

693
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:36.079
<v Speaker 1>real opportunity for revival of nutrition. Now, as to where

694
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:38.599
<v Speaker 1>you should start to go back to the beginning of education,

695
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:41.440
<v Speaker 1>you're absolutely right. But here's the thing that I've been

696
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:43.920
<v Speaker 1>thinking about more and more lately, is that when a

697
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.320
<v Speaker 1>student comes into your classroom at eighteen, they haven't been

698
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.599
<v Speaker 1>in education that long. It's civilization can be destroyed very quickly.

699
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.559
<v Speaker 1>It can also be revived by people who really are

700
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.960
<v Speaker 1>not unafraid to wield power. And I'm hardened by the

701
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:01.480
<v Speaker 1>fact that the right is getting less afraid of wielding

702
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:04.280
<v Speaker 1>power and less sort of anti status. And it's I

703
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:07.880
<v Speaker 1>think that the libertarianism has its place in market et cetera.

704
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.000
<v Speaker 1>But we need to be dear about what our cultural

705
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.840
<v Speaker 1>priority civilizational priorities are. And I think if you did

706
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:19.440
<v Speaker 1>something as simple as classify any education institute that is

707
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:23.920
<v Speaker 1>accepting a certain percentage of students that are reading and

708
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:27.440
<v Speaker 1>doing math at below a certain level as remedial institutions

709
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.440
<v Speaker 1>and then use that as an index for failing high schools.

710
00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:34.800
<v Speaker 1>If you just to clear an education crisis and really

711
00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:39.239
<v Speaker 1>compel some serious changes, you'd see something. Now if you

712
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:42.639
<v Speaker 1>look at what's going on in Mississippi right for less money,

713
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:46.199
<v Speaker 1>they have higher reading scores than in California, that shows

714
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:48.639
<v Speaker 1>you that all it takes is a little political. But

715
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.360
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't take that much. Right now, it's Spencer pract

716
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.480
<v Speaker 1>going to do it in California. I doubt it. I

717
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:00.480
<v Speaker 1>really employed that superman at or whatever, right, but I do.

718
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:04.079
<v Speaker 1>I do think there is political will, and it only

719
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 1>takes a decade or so. And I'll leave you with

720
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:10.159
<v Speaker 1>this this thought. The school choice movement does classical education.

721
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:13.760
<v Speaker 1>These civic institutes. There are young men and women already

722
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.199
<v Speaker 1>going through these places about to go and get an education.

723
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:19.760
<v Speaker 1>They'll get PhDs, they'll go into leadership roles. I think

724
00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:23.440
<v Speaker 1>that in ten to twenty years you're going to see

725
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:25.920
<v Speaker 1>some pretty remarkable young men and women come out of

726
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.199
<v Speaker 1>these education institutions, and guess what we'll get. We'll get

727
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.800
<v Speaker 1>on the right, you're going to have really well formed,

728
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:34.280
<v Speaker 1>well educated leaders. And on the left, what will you

729
00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:37.119
<v Speaker 1>get what we saw with Joe Biden and Kamrade Harris.

730
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:42.639
<v Speaker 1>You get puppet presidencies, right, you get weekend at Bernie's presidency,

731
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:46.800
<v Speaker 1>and then this DEI face for what is essentially, if

732
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:48.920
<v Speaker 1>you want to go that far a deep state right,

733
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.159
<v Speaker 1>you'll see how it works out. The real substance is

734
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:55.159
<v Speaker 1>going to be on the stage. And I think you know,

735
00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.239
<v Speaker 1>we often as conservatives of one kind or another, put

736
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 1>myself in the other category, but essentially, at one time

737
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:06.280
<v Speaker 1>or another we get very disheartened about the future of civilization.

738
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:08.840
<v Speaker 1>But there is a positive story to be told in

739
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.880
<v Speaker 1>which the quality and the power of leadership will be

740
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 1>undeniable on one side because the other side has relied

741
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:20.000
<v Speaker 1>on institutions and not enough on individual formation. And that's

742
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:22.440
<v Speaker 1>just where the right has as a leg up. Yeah.

743
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, my summary of what the way you describe

744
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:27.000
<v Speaker 2>your step a minute ago is that what students want

745
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:29.880
<v Speaker 2>and need is rigor and challenge and you're right that

746
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.880
<v Speaker 2>they respond to that. So you may know this already,

747
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:35.840
<v Speaker 2>but you know so Hillsdale they're pretty rigorous, they're and serious,

748
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:38.719
<v Speaker 2>they're explicitly conservative. But leave that aside from their method

749
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:42.119
<v Speaker 2>of instruction. Why didn't you hear about Oliver Washington and

750
00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:45.639
<v Speaker 2>elsewhere the Wall Street Journal? You know, the media said

751
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:48.320
<v Speaker 2>cut these Hillsdale grads. They're really smart and they're really

752
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:52.000
<v Speaker 2>able at age twenty two, age twenty three, and I'll

753
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:55.960
<v Speaker 2>bet uat X is going to get that reputation really fast. Right,

754
00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:58.360
<v Speaker 2>we're going to take another quick ad break. But when

755
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:00.199
<v Speaker 2>we come back, Alex, I want to take you back

756
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.280
<v Speaker 2>to something you said in your initial description of the

757
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:14.800
<v Speaker 2>book to push this a little bit further. So, Alex,

758
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.159
<v Speaker 2>you talk about remedies, but I want to go back

759
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:19.639
<v Speaker 2>to one of the conditions you describe in a way

760
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 2>have never heard it done before, but I think it's

761
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:26.199
<v Speaker 2>probably correct, profound, deeply serious. You said something like I

762
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:28.800
<v Speaker 2>was trying to make notes that when you get chaotic

763
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:33.639
<v Speaker 2>educational institutions, it ends up spilling out too or causing

764
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:40.000
<v Speaker 2>a chaotic regimes. So the point is is that what

765
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:42.400
<v Speaker 2>you say, the populars version of that thought to the

766
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:45.159
<v Speaker 2>extent that is the same. Is everything bad in our

767
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:49.880
<v Speaker 2>country starts in faculty meetings, right, It comes from the campuses, right.

768
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 2>But boy, I mean it's one thing to start turning

769
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:59.400
<v Speaker 2>out some really smart, effective leaders from these isolated citadels

770
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:01.679
<v Speaker 2>of excellence that we're all trying to promote and help

771
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:04.800
<v Speaker 2>out with. But boy, that's a long time for that

772
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:07.159
<v Speaker 2>to drip feed through a political system and turn around

773
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:09.960
<v Speaker 2>this the ship of state that's you know, sinking, right,

774
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.599
<v Speaker 2>So that's a I don't know, I'm saying, yeah that perhaps.

775
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.199
<v Speaker 1>There's this there's this line where the ship of State

776
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:18.840
<v Speaker 1>is brought up and players Republic where he's talking about

777
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:24.159
<v Speaker 1>about how you know, you have this drunken ship owner

778
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.679
<v Speaker 1>and he's got these all these sophist sailors trying to

779
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:30.239
<v Speaker 1>be hot and awful, and then he says and the

780
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:33.079
<v Speaker 1>ship sales as you might expect, which is a very

781
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:37.440
<v Speaker 1>strange way you would say it sinks. Right. The truth

782
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:39.639
<v Speaker 1>of the matter is that even with very bad leadership,

783
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:43.280
<v Speaker 1>it kind of trudges along because there are these these pressures.

784
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:45.639
<v Speaker 1>So I would just say that there's you know, there's

785
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.239
<v Speaker 1>a bit of of of pressure against that, and I

786
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:55.920
<v Speaker 1>am struck how much the the average person, even who's

787
00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:59.800
<v Speaker 1>who's fairly ideological, will start conceding points when when they

788
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.079
<v Speaker 1>it comes up and butts up against their own lives. Right,

789
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:06.920
<v Speaker 1>So I think I have just a word of caution

790
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.920
<v Speaker 1>on the too much of the doomsday stuff there. But yes,

791
00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, civilization is always a difficult thing, right, It's

792
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:16.599
<v Speaker 1>always very fraught, and it has its fragilities, and it

793
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:18.920
<v Speaker 1>can be lost on the one hand. On the other hand,

794
00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:23.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, students are running away from the humanities. And

795
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.599
<v Speaker 1>what's interesting is I see So let me take my

796
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:32.039
<v Speaker 1>friend Shiloh Brooks in his class at Princeton. He taught

797
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:35.119
<v Speaker 1>that at CU, he brought it to Princeton, and this guy,

798
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:39.000
<v Speaker 1>who was not a tenured faculty member, suddenly went from

799
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:40.920
<v Speaker 1>a class that had I don't know, a dozen two

800
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:45.440
<v Speaker 1>dozen students to hundreds in his class because he knew

801
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:47.119
<v Speaker 1>how to teach, He knew how to speak to the

802
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.760
<v Speaker 1>deepest longings of students. He wasn't just giving prepackaged ideology,

803
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:54.639
<v Speaker 1>wasn't finger wagging at them in this homeownersh way about

804
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:57.599
<v Speaker 1>their race, etster and their privilege. He just talked about

805
00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:00.679
<v Speaker 1>what it means to be ambitious And guess what, Prince students,

806
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:03.840
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't you think they're interested in ambition. They tend to

807
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:06.760
<v Speaker 1>be an ambitious bunch and what they want to learn

808
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.440
<v Speaker 1>about that part of themselves, the part that they deal

809
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:15.239
<v Speaker 1>with every single day. I think there's you know, my hope,

810
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:18.719
<v Speaker 1>to be quite blunt, is that the civic institutes will

811
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.559
<v Speaker 1>cannibalize students from the other discipline so that they will

812
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:24.960
<v Speaker 1>grow even as we have this population. Yeah, and I

813
00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:26.840
<v Speaker 1>think we're going to see it. As long as these

814
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:29.840
<v Speaker 1>places are well run, there's going to be a shift

815
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:32.480
<v Speaker 1>and the students are going to flock to them because

816
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.840
<v Speaker 1>that's where real stuff is going on. They have money,

817
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:38.360
<v Speaker 1>they have interesting speakers. There's a debate happening. They're actually

818
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:41.760
<v Speaker 1>facing the questions instead of just talking down to you.

819
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:45.400
<v Speaker 1>And guess what where talent is. That's where smart kids

820
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:48.599
<v Speaker 1>will go and the best kids will go. So things

821
00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:50.719
<v Speaker 1>like that, and we could go on and on about this,

822
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.599
<v Speaker 1>but I'm happy to see some counter pressure. I'm firmly

823
00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:58.320
<v Speaker 1>believe that the education on offer by individuals in these

824
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:02.880
<v Speaker 1>places is uh leaps and bounds better and more relevant

825
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:06.119
<v Speaker 1>and addresses to real issues. And that's students eighteen year olds.

826
00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:09.159
<v Speaker 1>They're not committed like their teachers are. They are flexible,

827
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:12.960
<v Speaker 1>willing to dye their hair different colors, they'll dress differently,

828
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:16.119
<v Speaker 1>they'll think differently. Provided that there are some decent arguments,

829
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:17.320
<v Speaker 1>you just got to put them right there.

830
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it turns out competition works and right. You can

831
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:24.440
<v Speaker 2>tell by the way the established faculties at some places

832
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:28.000
<v Speaker 2>like Ohio State are freaking out about these tiny outposts

833
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.039
<v Speaker 2>and they're you know, so, yeah, that's going to be

834
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:34.119
<v Speaker 2>interesting to watch. Yeah, Lucritian, did you want to jump

835
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:35.880
<v Speaker 2>in on the No, you're you're happy. I mean, I

836
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:38.719
<v Speaker 2>usually Okay, I've diverted you during the break.

837
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:39.000
<v Speaker 1>A little bit.

838
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about Plato. I'm not sure we have enough

839
00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:44.440
<v Speaker 2>time to because I mean, we could talk to you

840
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:48.119
<v Speaker 2>for hours about it. Uh, but you have written a

841
00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:51.119
<v Speaker 2>book about Plato's Symposium that I have to confess I've

842
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:56.239
<v Speaker 2>not read. But I started thinking about the symposium again

843
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:58.039
<v Speaker 2>when you had this ruckus out of Texas A and

844
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:02.159
<v Speaker 2>m in a or so ago about a professor of philosophy.

845
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:04.559
<v Speaker 2>He's a total modernist. I looked at syllabus. It's all

846
00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:08.440
<v Speaker 2>modern journal articles on silly things plus two excerpts from

847
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Plato Symposium, and that got him in trouble because I

848
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.400
<v Speaker 2>think he was using him for mischievous and incompetent purposes.

849
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.719
<v Speaker 2>But but you know, am I actually pretty weak on Plato.

850
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean the Gorgioas is the one I know best

851
00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:22.440
<v Speaker 2>because I took my first seminar in political philosophy with

852
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.599
<v Speaker 2>Jim Nichols. Was translated. Yeah, and you know, we spent

853
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:28.480
<v Speaker 2>a whole semester doing it like Roni Berger does, going

854
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:30.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, two pages at a time. It was fantastic,

855
00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:33.039
<v Speaker 2>And I go back to the Gorgias and look at

856
00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.360
<v Speaker 2>my notes in the margin all the time. In any case,

857
00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:41.119
<v Speaker 2>So the Symposium, though, I think it's pretty different from

858
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:46.039
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the other dialogues, and it's actually I'm

859
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:47.960
<v Speaker 2>not sure it's right to say less of a dialogue

860
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:51.920
<v Speaker 2>than most of them that we're familiar with. Is it possible,

861
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:54.679
<v Speaker 2>Alex me to give a little thumbnail sketch about what's

862
00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:58.800
<v Speaker 2>the central not ideas, but you know, central purpose of

863
00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the symposium and how it firs from the others, And

864
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:03.039
<v Speaker 2>what's one or two things that you think people ought

865
00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:04.480
<v Speaker 2>to know about it and why they should read it.

866
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's about love. And it's so I have this

867
00:48:08.599 --> 00:48:11.519
<v Speaker 1>thesis about Plato that I've written a bit here and there,

868
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:14.039
<v Speaker 1>and then I've kind of nudged at. But I'll just

869
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:17.039
<v Speaker 1>throw it out here that every dialogue attracts a certain

870
00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:23.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of reader. It actively cultivates a certain reputation. Right,

871
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:27.400
<v Speaker 1>So the symposion literally called the banquet or the drinking party.

872
00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:30.599
<v Speaker 1>Drinking together is literally what the tuitle needs. Now oddly

873
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:32.920
<v Speaker 1>enough that people don't drink in there, which is Plato's

874
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:35.800
<v Speaker 1>way of saying, I'm going to subvert your expectations. And

875
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:38.559
<v Speaker 1>if you've heard about the book at all, you'll you'll

876
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:43.039
<v Speaker 1>know who's in it. Socrates, Aristophanes, al Sabaiines, Agatha, all

877
00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:47.800
<v Speaker 1>these really remarkable figures in Athenian politics and in Athenian

878
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:51.960
<v Speaker 1>intellectual life. Pausanius, Eric Simgus. These are known people. And

879
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:54.880
<v Speaker 1>so it has a reputation, a gossipy reputation, and it

880
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:58.039
<v Speaker 1>opens with gossip by people talking about it, right, and

881
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:59.880
<v Speaker 1>you think, oh, this is like being at the mech

882
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.599
<v Speaker 1>gala after party. Right, I can talk to you know,

883
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:05.559
<v Speaker 1>this person and that person or whatever. Creastia rolls her

884
00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:08.320
<v Speaker 1>eyes if you have a fine of her deep psychic health.

885
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:11.599
<v Speaker 1>That's very good, right, But Trance a certain reader, and

886
00:49:11.719 --> 00:49:13.280
<v Speaker 1>who is this kind of reader? They want to be

887
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:15.039
<v Speaker 1>part of the in crowd. They want to be part

888
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:17.960
<v Speaker 1>of this community, the sense of that there's something, there's

889
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:19.840
<v Speaker 1>a real gathering here happening. I want to be a

890
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:23.000
<v Speaker 1>part of it. And guess what. Socrates shows up late.

891
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:25.719
<v Speaker 1>He shows up rudely, he insults the guy there. And

892
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:29.159
<v Speaker 1>here's the problem. Agathon is a is an accommodating host.

893
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:31.719
<v Speaker 1>He creates a beautiful environment, and that's what you think

894
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.480
<v Speaker 1>you want to be a part of. But Socrates, how

895
00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:40.199
<v Speaker 1>do you accommodate the annoying, petulant, difficult Maggie Socrist? You can't.

896
00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:42.599
<v Speaker 1>And Agathon struggles, and of course what does you do?

897
00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:44.840
<v Speaker 1>The second he gets a chance to speak, he starts

898
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:47.159
<v Speaker 1>asking people questions, trying to make it a dialogue. And

899
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:49.679
<v Speaker 1>then when it's finally his turn, he objects to the

900
00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:52.159
<v Speaker 1>whole proceedings and he has this whole whole issue, and

901
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:54.840
<v Speaker 1>he tries to change it. And the question really at

902
00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:59.880
<v Speaker 1>the heart of it is can this wonderful, beautiful community

903
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:04.360
<v Speaker 1>ultimately satisfied The most stringent of guests, right, the most

904
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:08.159
<v Speaker 1>demanding of guests, and the philosophic question there is whether

905
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:13.280
<v Speaker 1>the beautiful or the noble, right, this beautiful, organizational, organized

906
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.360
<v Speaker 1>whole can actually be good for you for the person

907
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:19.199
<v Speaker 1>who's most serious about what their own good is, about

908
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:22.440
<v Speaker 1>what living the good life is. And the answer is yeah, maybe,

909
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:26.119
<v Speaker 1>but probably not not on this social social level. So

910
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:29.880
<v Speaker 1>it's a delightful dialogue. It's full of speeches about love,

911
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.599
<v Speaker 1>very ironic, kind of un self aware speeches about love.

912
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:39.679
<v Speaker 1>It's titillating, it's sometimes a little gross because there is

913
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:44.920
<v Speaker 1>a kind of pedaph right about it, and it's politically remarkable.

914
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Alcibiz comes in drunk and vino very toss. He confesses

915
00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:54.639
<v Speaker 1>is joked in love with Socrates, the fact that Socrates,

916
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:57.559
<v Speaker 1>here's something for you, Socri seems to laugh at him,

917
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:02.920
<v Speaker 1>at his naked body. That it doesn't take a master

918
00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:05.639
<v Speaker 1>psychologist to know that that could be damning to a

919
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:09.199
<v Speaker 1>beautiful person, to have the ugliest man at Porson Athens

920
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:13.320
<v Speaker 1>laugh at the person that everybody wants at his naked form.

921
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:16.480
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's a uh if you, if you ask me,

922
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:21.000
<v Speaker 1>what's a philosophic text that's both delightful and deeply interesting.

923
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:23.440
<v Speaker 1>It's got to be the symposium. It was interesting. His

924
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:26.199
<v Speaker 1>favorite dialogue, maybe the most beautiful dialogue.

925
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Now I've got one more question for you about this.

926
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:33.320
<v Speaker 2>So again as back to our teacher Harry Jaffa, who

927
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:36.639
<v Speaker 2>like to direct our attention to the final paragraphs of

928
00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:39.320
<v Speaker 2>the symposium, And now here I'm going by memory, and

929
00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure I'm going to butcher it, but it's it's

930
00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:44.039
<v Speaker 2>where as Jaffa used to put it, And you know,

931
00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:45.880
<v Speaker 2>my own reading says, okay, I see why I said

932
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:49.960
<v Speaker 2>that Socrates speculates that there will someday be a great

933
00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:54.320
<v Speaker 2>thinker or writer who can be proficient in both tragedy

934
00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:59.199
<v Speaker 2>and comedy. And Java says that was anticipating Shakespeare. Does

935
00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:01.519
<v Speaker 2>that strike you as plausible or is that unting too far?

936
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Let me let me put a finer, finer point on that.

937
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:07.119
<v Speaker 1>He says that the person who can make tragedy by

938
00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:11.639
<v Speaker 1>art or by technical ability could also write comedy. Would

939
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 1>I take this to me? So my book on this

940
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:17.239
<v Speaker 1>is called Musings on Plato Symposium. It just got translated

941
00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:20.239
<v Speaker 1>into German, so that's from Political Animals. It got translated

942
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:28.920
<v Speaker 1>to German as politic des eros Gungen not on symposion anyways,

943
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:32.199
<v Speaker 1>if you like German, that's from Claustromod translated by Peter Traviny.

944
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.360
<v Speaker 1>It's a wonderful translation, with a really good introduction by

945
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.519
<v Speaker 1>the translator. Anyways, Setting that aside, the person who makes

946
00:52:38.599 --> 00:52:42.440
<v Speaker 1>tragedy by art by technical ability can also make comedy.

947
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:46.440
<v Speaker 1>Tragedy has that it's heart the gods. Right, If you're

948
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:49.480
<v Speaker 1>making it by technical skill, you're essentially inventing the god

949
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.719
<v Speaker 1>of the play. It's not just inspiration from beyond and

950
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.199
<v Speaker 1>then you give it voice, but you're actually making it,

951
00:52:55.480 --> 00:52:57.360
<v Speaker 1>and so you've got a bit of ironic distance on

952
00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.800
<v Speaker 1>your own gods. So that's a kind of a comedian element.

953
00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:03.800
<v Speaker 1>I would say that the first master of that, and

954
00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:08.079
<v Speaker 1>the first persons Socras intimates is Plato. The way he

955
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:11.239
<v Speaker 1>invents the forms, the good, the one, the precise itself,

956
00:53:11.320 --> 00:53:15.280
<v Speaker 1>depending on the dialogue. But Shakespeare is certainly certainly capable

957
00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:20.840
<v Speaker 1>of that, I think, and it's it's very difficult to

958
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:23.719
<v Speaker 1>see in play in Shakespeare, I mean, where he's not

959
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:26.639
<v Speaker 1>in control of the plays and everything that's happening in them.

960
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:30.119
<v Speaker 1>So certainly a master of his of his craft and

961
00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:32.880
<v Speaker 1>of everybody on the stage, even if it is the

962
00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:35.480
<v Speaker 1>God and Lee or something like that.

963
00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:39.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, so Alex, we have barely scratched the surface here.

964
00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:40.400
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna have to have you back two or three

965
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:42.960
<v Speaker 2>more times and keep going without this some other things.

966
00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:45.079
<v Speaker 2>But we're gonna do our last commercial break and then

967
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:47.079
<v Speaker 2>we're going to come back and do our exit stuff.

968
00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:50.079
<v Speaker 2>Stick around for this, Alex, as you can hackle and

969
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:52.760
<v Speaker 2>chime in. We do our best of the Babylon b

970
00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:55.599
<v Speaker 2>for the week, and then I'm skipping my AI generated

971
00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:59.159
<v Speaker 2>parody this week. But this has been fun, So let's

972
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:01.760
<v Speaker 2>as we ride back for our usual closing. Although I've

973
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:03.679
<v Speaker 2>got a couple of new ruffles and flourishes maybe, so

974
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:09.760
<v Speaker 2>we'll be right back. All right, Lucretia, what's the best

975
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:11.320
<v Speaker 2>of the Bee this week that you've seen so far?

976
00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:14.400
<v Speaker 3>The best of the Bee? We're a short week actually

977
00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:17.559
<v Speaker 3>because the last time we met was only four days ago,

978
00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.039
<v Speaker 3>just five days ago. But I came up with some

979
00:54:21.400 --> 00:54:23.639
<v Speaker 3>So first of all, we haven't talked at all about Iran,

980
00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:26.280
<v Speaker 3>which you said we were going to do, because in fact,

981
00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:30.239
<v Speaker 3>you're half Iranian half path are you half Iranian or

982
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:30.880
<v Speaker 3>half Persian?

983
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.880
<v Speaker 1>Half? Alright, my mother is from Iran. My grandfather, who

984
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:37.280
<v Speaker 1>he just buried, was the son of a cleric, I'm

985
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.719
<v Speaker 1>told in Iatola. But this is from very long ago.

986
00:54:40.119 --> 00:54:43.159
<v Speaker 1>My father is from France. He's a Parisian. So I'm

987
00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:45.920
<v Speaker 1>the first person born in the US on either side,

988
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:50.440
<v Speaker 1>hence Priu and not right, Yes, yeah, okay.

989
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:54.519
<v Speaker 3>So Iran issues a serious threat that they have a

990
00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:01.320
<v Speaker 3>massive reserve of more serious threats. That's very Since you

991
00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:06.559
<v Speaker 3>brought up the the petrol relationships. Experts say engagement ring

992
00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:12.320
<v Speaker 3>should cost at least two tanks of gas. Always thought

993
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:14.280
<v Speaker 3>that was like the dumbest thing, you know, Oh, you've

994
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:17.039
<v Speaker 3>just been too anyway, that's because I'm not one of

995
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:21.760
<v Speaker 3>those kinds of women that anyway. Tucker Carlson denies ever

996
00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:22.440
<v Speaker 3>hearing of this.

997
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Tucker Carlson, fellow, Oh that's gonna yeah, wasn't that didn't

998
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:29.559
<v Speaker 1>he He got caught ray Is that what I was referencing?

999
00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:32.119
<v Speaker 1>He got caught saying I never said this thing.

1000
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:35.519
<v Speaker 3>He went to he had did a really horrible interview

1001
00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:37.199
<v Speaker 3>with the New York Times, and I'm sure he wish

1002
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:37.800
<v Speaker 3>was buried.

1003
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:42.079
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, can I say to the Persians with serious threats,

1004
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:44.320
<v Speaker 1>I can tell you As a matter of fact, this

1005
00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:46.639
<v Speaker 1>is when everybody says, oh, I'm so worried about the orions.

1006
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:49.239
<v Speaker 1>Someone like, let me tell you, Iranian's talk a big game.

1007
00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:51.880
<v Speaker 1>I've seen it. I have. I have aunts and uncles

1008
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:54.480
<v Speaker 1>up the wazoo. We got we got tons of cousins.

1009
00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:57.480
<v Speaker 1>They all have big schemes, big big ideas. And it's

1010
00:55:57.480 --> 00:55:59.719
<v Speaker 1>always Virgans like to talk a big game.

1011
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.079
<v Speaker 2>It's saying rug merchant to slur.

1012
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, but I'm gonna start using it whenever

1013
00:56:10.519 --> 00:56:12.519
<v Speaker 1>one of my cousins gets big in his bridges.

1014
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:17.719
<v Speaker 3>All right, Coder, I really like this one. Coder displaced

1015
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.000
<v Speaker 3>by a I told he should just learn to mind Cole.

1016
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.800
<v Speaker 2>Right, that's a good one to write.

1017
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:28.119
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so this is only for my my Catholic friends,

1018
00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:32.599
<v Speaker 3>perhaps perhaps the Protestants out there. Jumping the Shark, I

1019
00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:36.039
<v Speaker 3>really like this one. Jumping the Shark. The chosen criticized

1020
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:39.719
<v Speaker 3>for planning to kill off main character only to resurrect

1021
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:40.880
<v Speaker 3>him next episode.

1022
00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh dear, okay, just I'll.

1023
00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:50.599
<v Speaker 3>You mentioned the met Gala.

1024
00:56:50.840 --> 00:56:51.440
<v Speaker 1>I'll do this one.

1025
00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:55.480
<v Speaker 3>Hubo hobo hobo with garbage can stuck on his head.

1026
00:56:55.960 --> 00:57:02.000
<v Speaker 3>Mistaken for met Gala attendee. Did you guys see that

1027
00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:05.360
<v Speaker 3>one note, Yes, the one in the wheelchair who was

1028
00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:16.800
<v Speaker 3>a black, transsexual LGBT cerebral palsy quadriplegic. I mean, and

1029
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:19.719
<v Speaker 3>is now this the you know, the lead models of

1030
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:21.119
<v Speaker 3>some modeling agency.

1031
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:26.000
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, the next Democratic National Committee candidate exactly.

1032
00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Makes it easy. It's getting beyond parody. Now, it's gotten

1033
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:31.440
<v Speaker 2>so out of hand.

1034
00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:36.920
<v Speaker 3>It really is last one compassionate, hoping everyone knows the news. Compassionate.

1035
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:40.920
<v Speaker 3>Federal judge rules assassin should get one more shot to

1036
00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:41.559
<v Speaker 3>kill Trump.

1037
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:47.519
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, yeah that if Yeah, that's right. Okay, I'm

1038
00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:49.760
<v Speaker 2>done right, Yeah, all right. So I'm just going to

1039
00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:52.360
<v Speaker 2>compress our ending because normally John has a little speech

1040
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:54.519
<v Speaker 2>and I'll just summarize it. He always says, always drink

1041
00:57:54.519 --> 00:57:56.199
<v Speaker 2>your whiskey and eat buy more books. That's one of

1042
00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:58.159
<v Speaker 2>our models. We have a hoarding problem when it comes

1043
00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:01.159
<v Speaker 2>to books. And then I usually come in and say,

1044
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:03.760
<v Speaker 2>you have been listening to the three Whiskey Happy Hour

1045
00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:07.920
<v Speaker 2>sponsored by our friends at the Civitas Institute, the podcast

1046
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:14.320
<v Speaker 2>dedicated to single malts singular metaphysics coming soon, microtonal punk.

1047
00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:18.320
<v Speaker 2>I know that it's my new way I'm going to

1048
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:21.199
<v Speaker 2>torture you and John Lucretia stand by you will, you will,

1049
00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Those who know, we'll know, and others will find out.

1050
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:26.760
<v Speaker 2>And with that, that's a rapper this week. Thanks for coming, Alex,

1051
00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:27.440
<v Speaker 2>this has been great.

1052
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:30.079
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having me. This is a great, great time.

1053
00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:45.840
<v Speaker 2>Ricochet join the conversation.