Speaker 1: Bopp Ship Shop Shop, Boots Shop, and stoop Step Shoots.
Speaker 2: All right, welcome yet again. You're here with me Jay
Dyer from Jay's Analysis, and Nina Byzantina joins us once again.
Speaker 3: She was with us a couple of years ago. We
talked history, we talked the history.
Speaker 2: Of Russia, and lately she's been doing some different materials.
She's doing material on the human predator. Nina, how are you?
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. I'm doing well.
Speaker 5: As I was just telling you, I'm a little bit
self sleep deprived. So if I sound like Joe Biden,
it's not dementia, it's sleep deprivation.
Speaker 2: So just to clarify, well, yes, if I start talking
nonsense gibberish, would you feel more at home?
Speaker 4: Like absolutely?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So yes, this is a little bit of a departure.
Speaker 5: And as a side note, I'm still considering doing something
more along the lines of geopolitics and Russia related politics.
But as you know, with all the censorship on these platforms,
it's a little bit of a tricky yeah, a little
bit of a tricky subject to be able to disseminate
certain types of information that doesn't quite fit the mainstream narrative.
Speaker 4: But at the same time as mainstream enough to to
not be banned basically.
Speaker 5: So I'm still thinking about it, and I would love
to do it, but you know, so far, I'll just
stick to Twitter.
Speaker 4: So, yes, this is definitely not my usual subject.
Speaker 2: So let's yeah, let's move into that. So now you
want to empower all of the wine moms out there
to be able to do their own home diagnosis of
everybody and their family to be aychopath. Absolutely no, but
that is what happens. Like was clicking on YouTube and
they're like, then suddenly everybody in the family is a psychopath.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It's like if you have a cough and you google
the symptoms, you probably nowadays think coronavirus, which yes, you
probably do not. Yeah, it's there is definitely is that
downside to kind of more clickbait type content regarding the
subject of personality disorders in the cluster b or simply
I like to call them human predators. Other people like
to call them toxic people, manipulators, dysfunctional personalities. I think
there's a I actually really like this book by former
FBI agent Joan of Arrow. He calls them dangerous personalities.
So it's kind of like that same premise that we
stay away from diagnosing people because we're not mental health professionals.
And at the same time, I think it's very helpful
to outline certain traits that are harmful in interpersonal relationships,
in the workplace, in the family, romantic relationships, and.
Speaker 4: They're harmful across the board over the long term. So
it's not you know, one off incidents.
Speaker 6: That you're saying that if I watched enough of the
doctor Phil videos that I could give a qualified analysis.
Speaker 5: That It's funny that you mentioned this, because there's some
pretty interesting analyses of doctor Phil being somewhat narcissistic. So
if you wanted to go down the rabbit hole of
other people analyzing Doctor Phil after this, I'm.
Speaker 4: Yes, it totally is. It's it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 3: So all right, so let's talk about some of your
early videos.
Speaker 2: So you started after you had read a bunch on
the topic, and and I did enjoy all your I
watched all the videos. So you're not coming from an
advantage point of attempting to pass yourself off as anything.
You're just trying to give an honest analysis of your
own personal research based on you know, multiple books, and
I guess what a few years of looking into this topic.
So let's start with like the first red flags. That
doesn't have to be any specific numbers, but what are
the red flags that you notice in a human predator
that that's that come out at the beg at the
get go.
Speaker 5: Well, the red flags are It really depends on a situation.
But for instance, if someone has certain narcissistic traits and
it doesn't matter whether they qualify for a clinical diagnosis,
you would notice either excessive grandiosity and the way this
would be presented. Let's say you are going to a
restaurant with a friend or you know, romantic prospect.
Speaker 4: This person is not going to treat the weight staff
well or the cab driver.
Speaker 5: They may denigrate them to kind of place themselves above
this person, and it might be done in really subtle ways.
Speaker 4: So you might write this off that you know, he
or she is.
Speaker 5: Having a bad day, that's why he's being mean to
the cab driver, or he's making the waiter pronounce the
name of the wine correctly because he or she thinks
this is not the way you pronounce the name of
the wine. But literally, these things when they happen kind
of here and there are probably something that you are
not going to pay attention to unless you have had
your own negative personal and.
Speaker 3: It's pronounced frons. Yeah, and it's the finest of the
boxed wine, believe.
Speaker 4: It or not.
Speaker 5: I have witnessed and I have heard of situations like this,
and I know what other behaviors the individuals I'm thinking
of engaging. So it actually does happen. So and you know,
obviously a lot of times it happens with the person
who is narcissistic, who is an in a position of power,
So for them to denegrate the service staff, you know,
that really says a lot, because by definition they're above them,
so to speak, in terms of social status. So you
would notice things like that. You would notice the fact
that they might not be the most punctual person. And
of course, you know, some of us are late.
Speaker 4: Once in a while.
Speaker 5: It happens, and eventually you realize it happens all the time.
And basically the premise here is we do not start
until I get here. So a lot of the red
flags could be, you know, things that you will write
off from the beginning. You would notice that this person
may have a short fuse, but it would be over
minor issues. This person would really get angry and it
would be disproportionate to the subject at hand. Then this
person would cool down, maybe even apologize and own that
incident by saying, oh, I need to work on this.
I realize this is a flaw. You would actually probably
be pressed, Oh my gosh, he or she actually has
this amazing level of self reflection. So the point here
is that the red flags might be really minor in
the beginning, and you always kind of have to look
at the context and how often they happen, and look
at them over the long term. So I think one
of the most common things for narcissism in a romantic
relationship if you've binge watched the narcissism videos, is love bombing,
where you meet your romantic prospect and all of a
sudden your soulmates within a week. You know, things that
are kind of disproportionate are moving too fast. So it
really depends on whether this is you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, boss,
family member, and so forth. So yes, in the very beginning,
if this is a new person, it might not be obvious,
which is which is why the lack of public education
about the subject as kind of a street smarts type
is pretty pretty remarkable.
Speaker 2: Love the love bombing of course comes up in the
subject of cults, and we've done a lot of his
views and discussions on cult leaders.
Speaker 5: It's actually amazing because a lot of that psychology is
the same, including YouTubers who are not psychologists but who
have researched, a lot of a subject is actually directly
linked to cults. So a lot of the terminology comes
is directly lifted from cult psychology.
Speaker 2: One question before you move on, as you're talking about
the red flags about this this, these uh, these characteristics.
Is there a specific distinction in your mind between excessive
grandiosity and a God complex? Does every narcissist have the
God complex or not? Necessarily?
Speaker 5: Well, officially, according to the diagnostic criteria, there are two
types of types of narcissisms, and they're not necessarily in
two completely separate boxes. So as one person over the
course of the lifetime who is very disordered might actually
go from one to the other, so one is grandiose
and one is vulnerable.
Speaker 4: So it would actually be.
Speaker 5: In the ways displayed to the public, this person would
actually seem almost shy and actually self denigrating, whereas kind
of behind the scenes, they would perceive themselves as superior
to everyone else. And it's actually something that comes up
a lot with I did that little video on in
Cells and I had it's a new channel, very gorilla,
So it was kind of funny to get a lot
of hate mail because it clearly struck a chord when
I talked about the vulnerable narcissistic traits in some of
the more pronounced in cell characters, things you see on
message boards and of course in the news media.
Speaker 4: So there are the two types of narcissisms. But I
think the.
Speaker 5: Problem with despite this newer public education on YouTube, which
some of which involves actual mental health professionals, most people,
when you say narcissists, they think, oh, it's someone who
likes to.
Speaker 4: Look in the mirror.
Speaker 5: Oh well, it's someone who likes to take selfies, and
that is grandiose, although it's it's a little bit more
murky nowadays because everyone has social media, and you know,
you and I are on social media as you know,
more so for you as a public figure, so it's
almost like you're required to post the occasional selfie.
Speaker 4: Even if you have absolutely no need for that validation.
So but regardless of that.
Speaker 5: Let's let's say you do need to be validated by
posting photos of yourself and everyone says how good looking
you are. That's one of the least harmful traits of narcissism,
and sadly what people think without researching it that that's
what that is.
Speaker 4: And when people when if you were to say.
Speaker 5: Who's a psychopath, they would say, oh, Ted Bundy, serial killers.
They're not going to say a banker, Hollywood producer, a ceo,
a politician. Whereas in reality, the most successful psychopaths, I mean,
they may not be at the highest rating of the
psychopathy checklist, but they may be you know, they may
be subclinical or just qualifying for that for that box
mental health box, but they're actually successful as opposed to
the guys who are in prison, who are less successful.
Speaker 4: That's why they're in prison. So again in terms of
you know, in terms of disseminating this kind of information,
it's really lacking.
Speaker 5: So if you think about I don't know if you've
heard of him, doctor Robert Hare, who is the seminal
figure in Canadian mental health, and he's world renowned and
he's the man who established the psychopathy checklist, which is
used in prison analysis and so forth. A lot of
his popular books stayed to the same thing, and he says,
you know, I've spent decades researching psychopaths in prison. Had
I not done this, I should have gone to the
Vancouver Stock Exchange, which is a pretty scary thing to
think about. So, you know, one of his very useful
books is called Snakes and Suits, and it's about the
psychopath in the workplace.
Speaker 4: And people do not do they do not think about that.
They do not think that, you know, you do Hollywood
stuff a lot.
Speaker 5: They do not think that the Hollywood producer, director, actor
may be somewhat psychopathic, or the politician might.
Speaker 4: Be somewhat psychopathic.
Speaker 5: Or if you're interested, you could google Hillary Clinton and
psychopathy and see some of these analyzes, which are not diagnoses,
but they're analyzes.
Speaker 4: There's some interesting stuff specifically about.
Speaker 5: Her in and psychopathy by people who are kind of
analyzing public information.
Speaker 4: So that's certainly not what comes to mind.
Speaker 2: People are saying because he's the non psychop.
Speaker 5: The only which is which is why he's he's always
kept away from from the center of psychopathy. But yeah,
I mean, it's the regular man on the street would
say Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bondy. He's not going to
say the politician, the journalist, you know, the Hollywood producers.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great point. Let me ask a couple
of weird questions. So are you familiar with the reddit
designation from some years back of the ham Planet?
Speaker 5: I am not, but I'm actually looking into Reddit because
it's pretty fascinating.
Speaker 4: So what deserve for too?
Speaker 2: So this was the name that the redditors of ten
years ago gave to the extremely overweight people. And this
is the people who tend to, like you know, can't
get out of the bed and they have to ride
the scooter everywhere they go. They have to get out
of a van in a scooter to go to Walmart
in a scooter. You know what I mean? This kind
of person. And what was interesting about this whole long
thread on Reddit I read a whole bunch of it
after Jamie had sent it to me one night, was
that a.
Speaker 3: Lot of people had noticed that the people who have these.
Speaker 2: Health issues and that are this big a lot of
times they were they didn't have the mindset and the
attitude that you would expect. You might expect that they
all had a very sort of uh oh, I have
no self esteem, and but actually quite a few of
them were the opposite. They were the vulnerable narcissists who
were extreme manipulative and extremely entitled and like everything that
I deserve a call I deserve, excalate, I deserve like.
Speaker 3: Everything is owed to them, and they had it. It's
just bizarre.
Speaker 2: It's not what you would expect.
Speaker 5: Well, I've there's also kind of this opposite theory, which
is a lot more sad, and I don't know if
statistical studies have been done, but if you look at
books like The Body Keeps Score, which talks about trauma,
it's and other popular books, it's actually very hard to read.
Speaker 4: It's disturbing.
Speaker 5: It talks about people with very serious issues, possibly experiencing
sexual abuse as children, and so that is their way
to make themselves less attractive by basically.
Speaker 4: Putting on more and more weight. And there there are
some studies.
Speaker 5: Again, I don't think the subject has been sufficiently researched,
but it's it's actually very disturbing if you think about
the way our culture promotes body positivity beyond any reason nowadays,
and sometimes you see people who clearly likely have psychosomatic issues.
That's it's clearly not just a way to show basically validating,
you're basically validating someone who possibly could have been sexually
abused as a child.
Speaker 7: Interesting too, Yeah, so because doctor Phil said that the
other day, Yes, I got on an addicted I got
addicted the other day to watching like twenty Doctor Phil
clips in a row.
Speaker 2: And that's why I keep that.
Speaker 4: One of them was they're certainly advertised to me, and
it's it's I.
Speaker 3: Think they're funny, like I die laughing and happy.
Speaker 5: I'm sure what's more disturbing that he still has a
show or the fact that I would get those ads
in my feed, so obviously we're getting the same advertising.
Speaker 2: Well, he said, there was a guy who was one
of these hand planet people who couldn't.
Speaker 3: Couldn't stop.
Speaker 2: But the weird part was that he went on one
of these TV shows and he got famous for being,
you know, the greatest loser, and he lost like five
hundred pounds. He became a trainer, and then he got
the way all back. He gained it all back and
got back to being like seven hundred pounds. And that's
exactly what doctor Phil said. So I know you're right,
because dark Field backs you up and.
Speaker 6: You know, and he said, you are putting a layers
of coats, You're just adding another coat, yeah, on top
of a coat.
Speaker 5: If you think about the cultural implications of taking body
positivity to kind of an irrational extent, it has some
pretty disturbing implications.
Speaker 4: And I know you like to dive down the rabbit
hole of you know, pedophiles in Hollywood, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5: So if you think about the way that is being
promoted thereby validating possible sexual abuse, I mean I find
that disturbing.
Speaker 2: So yeah, did you ever see that Russian film Branded.
Speaker 4: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: The critics bombed. I think they bombed because it kind
of had a positive message. But the part of the
message of the film was that a lot of the
corporate elite were actually intentionally promoting the quote body positive
message to fatten up the stupid population. It was actually
the premise of the film.
Speaker 4: So anyway, Yeah, I mean I think you could. Yeah,
I mean I think you can.
Speaker 5: You can analyze it in many different ways, and you
probably wouldn't be too far from what's happening. It's a
little bit more complex than the single reading.
Speaker 4: But actually what I wanted to do is to kind
of bring this closer to you.
Speaker 5: I noticed that a lot of times you validate the
trolls who attack you. Now, as someone who is also
on Twitter, I know sometimes it is a very good
social media strategy because you can mock them. You could
bring attention saying the accusations are and that gives you
additional attention and it promotes your message, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Et cetera. So I understand all that, and I sometimes
do the same.
Speaker 5: But I would say that, in my opinion, you validate
too many trolls. And it might sound like a very
captain obvious thing to say, oh, well, don't.
Speaker 4: Feed the trolls.
Speaker 5: We've all heard this, But if you think about what
their purpose is, their purpose is probably twofold on threefold.
One is attention seeking, So it doesn't matter what the
attention is. Yes, when you retweet them and you make
fun of them, the attention from your followers is going
to be negative, but they're not concerned whether it's positive
or negative. They're just interested in that narcissistic supply, so
you're giving it to them. Number two, they're wasting your
time and I think that's also very important. So I
think when you especially when they attack not your professional
life but your personal life personally, I would think of
them as being disordered or maladaptive, maybe subclinically, and I.
Speaker 4: Would not give them what they want good advice.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean, again, it sounds like Captain obvious, but when
you actually think the psychology of trolling, there's some very
interesting No.
Speaker 2: No, you had a video where you mentioned this. Yeah,
you mentioned this in the in Cell video, And actually
I didn't even think about applying that to my own situation.
I just thought about it theoret because I always think
in theory, I don't oftentimes apply things to my practical life.
And that's kind of the reason I want to do
this talk is because what you say does apply. So
I appreciate that. And you did mention something in the
video about how the person who does the sort of
trolling as a way to achieve validation is actually doing
it under the guise of I forget how you worried it,
but you were talking about how it appears that they're
undermining and cruciale, but actually what they're doing is achieving
a kind of validation and narcissistic supplies. I think what
you said it, Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean there's one particular psychologist on YouTube whom I like,
and I think he's a master's of psychology, So once again,
you know, he's not just a l a person like me.
And he has a number of videos where he analyzes
public figures along the political spectrum. So he talks about
on the quote unquote very fit quotation marks Bravic as
a mass shooter, having been diagnosed officially in his trial
with the narcissistic personality disorder, and then he contrasts him
with I can't believe that video is still up with
social justice warriors, and he basically talks about the fact
that the most aggressive ones display many many of the
signs of vulnerable and covert narcissism where they want to
erase these hierarchies, not because they're achieving a particular or
political goal but yes, yeah, but.
Speaker 4: Because they're actually fulfilling.
Speaker 5: A certain reality that is a little bit twisted in
their mind and kind of fulfilling their own hidden, grandiose
fantasies about where they should actually be in terms of
social status.
Speaker 2: So that's the same with the overreaction to women. That
was kind of the point of your whole video on
that phenomena, was that criticizing the modern e girl is
one thing, but the movement into like the irrational hatred
of women, which is where that movement goes a lot
of times, is absolutely insane.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I tried to be careful of my disclaimers,
saying that most likely most people you encounter who are
maladaptive are probably subclinical, and this applies to kind of
exaggerated cases. But obviously that particular comment really struck a
chord with these individuals, which was actually one of my points,
that they're hyper sensitive. That's one of the traits of
covert or vulnerable narcissism. And getting some hate mail was
pretty interesting validation in that regard, because, like I said,
it's a brand new channel in the sense that I'm
doing it in a very gorilla way. I'm using an
old smartphone to record. I need to upgrade all that.
But yeah, so that was that was very validating.
Speaker 2: Right, Are there any more red flags? Before we move
on to the ideas of some of the other videos
that you mentioned, the other major traits that stick out, like.
Speaker 5: Well, you should look at the person's life history. Now
it's not again, we're thinking about a new person that
you're meeting. It's not always possible to, you know, hire
a private investigator, but you should look at the way
they treat their friends. Do they have any friends, Do
they move around a lot, do they move around a
lot because there was a legitimate reason because their job
has moved them, or do they burn bridges in and
basically destroy any interpersonal relationships they have had in the
previous community.
Speaker 4: So they're sort of are are they charming?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 5: You know, naturally people are attracted to someone, and I
would differentiate between naturally charismatic and charming where it's very superficial,
and a lot of times at social events people are charming,
and it's not easy.
Speaker 4: It's not always easy to tell whether.
Speaker 5: They're basically just trying trying to fit in at the
social event or whether they're trying.
Speaker 4: To achieve a particular goal. But I am now very
wary of people who are charming, and I would actually
I would like to have them at my party, but
I would not want to have them in my life
as let's say, a long term friend or something like that.
Speaker 5: So again, these things are kind of more subtle like
charm is more subtle. Insulting a cab driver is more subtle.
I would look at that there if something more obvious
with grandios narcissism. How entitled they are? Do they feel
like they need the best seat at the restaurant? Do
they feel like they should not wait in line? Do
they cut lines? Are they trying to make decisions for
you where it's inappropriate and you've just met them?
Speaker 2: Right? But what you what do you do when you're
somebody like me and you're in a situation where you
actually are entitled to that best seat in the restaurant?
Speaker 4: How do you should talk to You should talk to
doctor Phil and see how he he deals with not
being granted that at all times.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna tweet doctor Phil tomorrow that question.
Speaker 4: You should look at it.
Speaker 5: If they're hostile and irritable, again, there might be a
reasonable explanation, like they're sleep deprived and overworked, but it
might actually be a very bad sign. And again, you're
looking at all of these things in a complex over
however long you know this person, is this repeated the behavior?
Is this behavior escalating? Is it getting worse? So depending
on whether we're talking about family members or a romantic
relationship or a boss, it would be a little bit
different with what you're seeing. So is this person deceitful?
Is this person trashing every ex girlfriend, ex boyfriend, I
mean every single.
Speaker 4: One, everybody in their life?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Exactly?
Speaker 5: Is this person always cynical and making snarky jokes? Again,
sometimes that may not mean anything, but if there are
other traits. I mean, I used to make snarky jokes
and then I did a little bit of engaging in
self reflection and I realized it's not a very good thing.
But you know, again, we're looking at the long term,
the patterns and the other traits, but it begins with
really small things that you might not even can unless
you look look at these you know, multiple YouTube videos
and psychology today and all this popular information that's out there.
Speaker 2: So okay, what about the uh is? What about covert narcissism?
So how's this different from.
Speaker 5: Overt Well, some of the traits are the same, and
in terms of diagnostic criteria, I believe, if I understand
it correctly, currently only grandiose narcissism gets the diagnosis of NPD.
Although vulnerable, the vulnerable current counterpart is recognized, not as
a diagnosis, and it could be equally harmful, but in
other ways. So there is that same sense of self importance,
but it's not projected outward. This is not a bombastic
public speaker who you know presents this this image of
being larger than life. This is someone who might actually
come across as meek and who will always complain about having,
you know, being slighted. Everywhere they go, everyone is always
doing something bad to them. There's always a crisis in
their life, and I mean sometimes there might be a crisis.
Speaker 4: That's why it's so difficult to tell. They're basically have
They basically share the same belief in being special and
unique as the grandiose, diagnosable counterpart, but it's not again
projected to the outside world. That's why if you read
in cell message boards you would see it, but it's
not sort of publicly displayed. So they have the same
sense of entitlement.
Speaker 5: They're equally interpersonally exploitative, but it would come up.
Speaker 4: In different ways.
Speaker 5: Whereas let's say, a grandose narcissist might go into an
overt rage, sometimes even violence to get what they want,
the vulnerable narcissism narcissist would use more covert behavior like
guilt tripping or disappearing for days, the silent treatment, and so.
Speaker 4: On and so forth. So it's something that is popularly
known as passive aggression.
Speaker 5: I like the term covert aggression, but generally the meaning
is the same that it's kind of like under the radar,
I'm always the hurt party, I'm always the victim.
Speaker 4: And you know, once you know this person well enough,
you probably realize that they're not always the victim.
Speaker 5: In fact, they're the aggressor. But they're using these roundabout
ways too. And if you think about what they're doing
is they're basically they're fighting for what they want, but
they're not fighting for what they want in an overway
by yelling at you, for instance. They're getting what they
want by using these passive, covert ways. So but they're
still fighting. They're still fighting. Is just a different way
to fight and to get what they want. And I
think it's very important to understand, like that's where the
aggression part comes in. But unlike Grandio's nurcissist, they're not
going to down the street that they're arrogant to others
in the open.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that sent me down this
rabbit hole a couple of years ago was some people
that I was interacting with and got me reading on
the subject. And one thing I noticed, and I think
you perhaps mentioned it in one of the videos. If not,
you can correct me, but I noticed the characteristic of
total inability ever to admit, even in the smallest degree,
any mistake or error, like not just not just on
a moral level, like oh it was really you know,
shitty that you punched me in the face, but like,
you know, even to like the most basic level of like,
oh you had a fact wrong about you know, the
World Series.
Speaker 3: It actually wasn't that year.
Speaker 2: No, I'm right, you know, like never, Like I've met
two people who have never in my life heard them
ever admit that they ever made any mistake or wrong.
Speaker 5: And it's actually a very interesting because you could look
at the psychological makeup of that person and it's probably,
if there are other traits involved, a pretty disordered person.
Speaker 4: Because if you.
Speaker 5: Look at the way the narcissist is constructed, there is
the true self that is essentially eroded, and then there's
the false self, which is basically a series of these
primitive defenses like envy and rage and so forth, and
if they were to admit that they're wrong, their whole
false self would basically collapse. And that's how they this
is the way they operate in the world, like they
would they would have serious psychological issues if they were
to admit that they're wrong, because their false self would
collapse basically, So they have like a.
Speaker 8: Mirror thing that's very fragile, that any insight has essentially
been like eaten away at whatever age they If you
follow kind of the popular analysis of how a narcissist
is formed, it's usually childhood trauma or.
Speaker 5: It's it's it's it's extreme validation as this little god
running around.
Speaker 4: Basically you're either denigrating the child or you are.
Speaker 5: You're excessively praising them, but it's always praising them for
actions as opposed to like, oh, you're kind and empathetic,
et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 4: So at whatever age.
Speaker 5: Their emotional development is stunted, that's what you'll see, and
it's actually pretty fascinating. If you have children, you will
see a lot of these narcissistic behaviors. But of course
in children it's develop mentally appropriate, right, So I don't know.
If you come across you know, nephew's nieces, someone else's
kids on a somewhat regular basis, have you ever seen
a kid admit that they're wrong they would go blame.
Speaker 2: Their brother exactly.
Speaker 4: It's it's exactly that.
Speaker 5: Of course, they don't have a false self like an
adult narcissist, but a lot of those things that are
developmenttally appropriate then kids, like really rapid mood swings from
mom I hate you to mom, I love you. When
you see that in an adult, obviously it's it's inappropriate
that inability to control your emotions on a.
Speaker 4: Very basic level.
Speaker 5: So it's it's pretty fascinating to compare what kids do
and for them being normal when they're you know, three,
four or five, and what adults do and it's absolutely not.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I know in the in the in the
case of one person I'm thinking of, there was an
early trauma at age four I think, where there was
an accidental death involved hm hmm. And I think it
really messed up the It wasn't the person's fault as
the child that was involved, but I think that it
probably damaged that person to the extent that they felt
like the solution perhaps was to erect the notion of
that that that that that ever admitting anything had been
done wrong would mean that they were weak, so they
had to build an image that they were completely strong
and invincible.
Speaker 5: Over yeah, I mean, that's absolutely relevant, But I would
also say there would have probably been some kind of
emotional neglect on a part of a caregiver or some
important adult like whatever teacher, coach, depending on what their
family situation was like, or excess a validation like you're
always the best, you're the best artist in the world,
you're the best singer, et cetera, et cetera. So in
some families it's actually pretty interesting. And I can think
of personal experiences where one parent is extremely aggressive and
denigrating and verbally abusive, and the other parent just praises
the hell out of you.
Speaker 4: And so basically this child who grows.
Speaker 5: Up with stunted emotional development spends his or her entire
life running from the abusive so to speak, poll to this.
Speaker 4: Kind of total allowance of everything.
Speaker 5: Everything is permissible, everything is permitted, and then that is
expressed and very low impulse control, which is one of
the important traits of these maladaptive personalities. It's not so
much associated with narcissists, although it's sometimes prevalent. It's more
so associated with sociopathy, psychopathy, and the diagnostic antisocial personality disorder.
Speaker 4: But it's never like a clear picture.
Speaker 5: A lot of people that I would say, are they
display narcissistic traits?
Speaker 4: Are have very low impulse control.
Speaker 2: So yeah, which is why I guess at times they
could snap and perhaps you know, try to kill somebody.
Speaker 5: Yes, And I think that's kind of interesting because again,
in terms of popular culture, there's so much debate as
to what is a sociopath, what is a psychopath, and what.
Speaker 4: Is the antisocial personality disorder?
Speaker 5: And to make matters worse, certain YouTube psychologists with their
PhDs give you a slightly different answer. One would say, oh,
a psychopath is born, a sociopath is made.
Speaker 4: Then they would kind of.
Speaker 5: Muddy the water was saying, well, no, of course, certain
genes are only activated in certain environmental conditions.
Speaker 4: It's never it's never genes alone.
Speaker 5: And you know, my point is that a sociopath or
the antisocial personality disorder there's significant criminality, whereas a psychopath
does not necessarily have to.
Speaker 4: Have a criminal record.
Speaker 5: It could be like a white collar criminal, or it
could be as we've mentioned earlier, Hollywood director, ceo, politician,
et cetera.
Speaker 2: What is the so next, you went on to cover.
Speaker 3: Things like when you are with this person or you
have this person that's.
Speaker 2: Say a family member or a boss. It's really bad
when it's a boss situation. I've had multiple bosses who
were just completely insane, demonic possessed by bosses. So people
will say things like, why didn't you just leave this
person in this relationship? And then you give it. You
did another video about five ways that you feel great
after you do leave these kinds of situations. So sometimes
you might not be able to leave, Like if you're
in the household.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think with the work scenario, obviously there
might it's it's a little it's it's obviously different from
a romantic partnership or a family of origin where either
it's elderly parents that you're taken care.
Speaker 4: Of, or you're not an adult, you're you know, teenager.
Speaker 5: You can't leave in a work situation, obviously, ideally you
should try to find another job.
Speaker 4: If the person in a position of power is.
Speaker 5: You know, kind of taking all the boxes for these
maladaptive traits, and I would say with you know, the
the two most difficult ones are, of course, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife,
so basically intimate partner and family of origin, because they
are all these unspoken social, cultural family obligations that are
kind of intertwined into into the maladaptive situation.
Speaker 4: So let's say you have.
Speaker 5: Two parents, they're married, one of them is neurotypical and
one of them perhaps not a clinical whatever the diagnosis
would be, but quite harmful. It's you know, someone the
psychologist might say, well, cut off contact, but it's impossible
if you want to maintain contact with the other parent, so.
Speaker 4: It's not easy to do so.
Speaker 5: But I think one of the more traumatic ones, of course,
would be, you know, an intimate partnership when when you
live with this person and things basically escalate, and what
happens is that there is this cycle of intermittent positive
reward basically think of Paulov's dogs and dog training, and
then there's a cycle of abuse, and sometimes it's verbal,
it could be physical, and in the meantime, you're walking
on eggshells. You're anticipating this next explosion to come. And
sometimes in popular culture, it's described as the doctor Jekyl
and your high personality. So what happens as this happens
over and over and over again, is that the timing
between the reward and it could be you know, let's
say this person is physically violent, he or she has
assaulted you.
Speaker 4: And I do want to make a point that sometimes
it does pertain to women. Absolutely.
Speaker 5: I've personally spoken to two men who have been subject
of disordered women and they absolutely do not want to
report this because it's embarrassing. Anyway, away from my digression,
So the period between the reward quote unquote, it could
be an apology, it could be a gift, it could
be a trip, it could.
Speaker 4: Really be anything. And this next rage the silent treatment
disappearing for days, whatever it might be. In a particular case,
it gets longer.
Speaker 5: So there are less and less rewards, kind of like
roughly speaking, you training your dog are no longer rewarding
the dog with treats for whatever the dog is supposed
to perform sid shake. You know, So as this is
happening and you're walking on eggshells because this person is
completely unpredictable, think about all the bodily changes that are
happening to you. Your reptilian brain is always you know, activated,
and you're constantly yes the lizard people.
Speaker 4: But you know you're you have the four flight fight
or flight for the fore f's basically fight flight, fawn
and sorry, what's the last one? And freeze and freeze,
And I'm sure you've seen this. And so.
Speaker 5: Basically when this happens, there's this hormone dump, right, And
so as this happens over and over and over again,
your body chemistry is completely out of black. And when
there's the quote unquote reward I'm so sorry I did
this and that to you, or here's a gift, I'm
so sorry I did this and that to you, you
get this massive dopamine release. So it's like adrenaline cortisol
on the bad side quote unquote, and dopamine on the
good side. And you know, these hormones are and neurotransmitters
are there for a reason. But when it happens on
such a frequent basis, it really screws up your body chemistry.
You're exhausted all the time, and you can have a
whole slew of issues. There are some studies about autoimmune issues,
people gaining weight, people losing weight, thyroid issues and so
on and so forth. And there's also some kind of
unofficial documented cases of people being able to leave these
scenarios and then their body chemistry is back to normal.
But that scenario is basically this is why it's called
a trauma bond, is that you kind of have I
think initially it came out with little children who were
raised in abusive house holds where you know, the same
parent as the good parent quote unquote and the bad parent,
and so the child is really kind of accustomed to
the good and the bad and that sort of body
chemistry being out of whack, and so you have this
almost bodily chemical dependence on this situation.
Speaker 4: So this is why when you leave it feels so
it just feels so traumatic.
Speaker 5: It's been compared to having withdrawals from a dro serious
chemical chemical dependency by multiple psychologists and scientists.
Speaker 1: So the.
Speaker 2: Trauma bond aspect of this also makes me think of
the aspects of cults exactly, Stockholm syndrome, this kind of stuff. So,
as you guys know in the audience, we've covered cults many, many,
many times, and so you'll start to see that what
Nina's talking about is very relevant to the sphere of cults,
cult of personality, and how cult leader use these.
Speaker 3: Tricks, tactics, techniques.
Speaker 2: Most of the time, I would say it's probably a
fair guess that cult leaders are narcissistic psychopaths.
Speaker 4: I don't think there's oh absolutely, And I think actually
a very good way to remember this is that not
every narcissist is a psychopath, but every psychopath is a narcissist. Okay,
So there are some pretty interesting studies of cult leaders,
specifically in the US, and from the psychological standpoint, not assessments,
I guess, because you know, officially, to diagnose someone you
have to interview them, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5: So there are assessments, but you know, I would say
they sound pretty accurate to me. So definitely that direct
connection between cult psychology and these narcissistic or psychopathic relationships.
In fact, that some of these mental health professionals call
the let's say a marriage to a highly narcissistic person
a cult of one.
Speaker 4: Basically, so.
Speaker 2: You mentioned, let's see a technique called gray rock, which
is placing a gray rock underneath the pillow of the
evil spouse.
Speaker 4: Correct and then and then doing evil Slavic spells.
Speaker 2: Right, so put.
Speaker 5: The infamous Eurraisinist Mongolian supremacist spell.
Speaker 4: Yes, it always works. Do not try this at home,
but you've mentioned this.
Speaker 5: Tomorrow the Daily Beast will be covering the bearded resputant.
Speaker 3: You will get the extra Slovic bes the bitcoin tonight. Yes, exactly,
Soviet Soviet.
Speaker 4: That sounds enticing. Actually, so tell us.
Speaker 3: About how I didn't I'd never heard of this.
Speaker 2: You talk about this gray rock method. So if if
you do have a psychopath in your sphere that you
have to deal with, this is an interesting technique, and
in the regards the person that I know, I did
think that this was a helpful piece of advice. If
you want to mention, that's when it's when it can
be done.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's basically exactly what it sounds like. When you
implement gray rock, you are supposed to be as boring as.
Speaker 4: A gray rock. You know, not many things that are
more boring than a great rock.
Speaker 5: I mean, I guess you're unless you're like into the
Japanese into religion, but I digress.
Speaker 4: So basically, the only.
Speaker 5: Time I would not use this technique is if the
person you're dealing with is physically violent, not necessarily towards you,
because there's a propensity for violence, even if it's just
punching walls, And you have to be, for whatever reason,
one on one with this and with this person, because
this may send the person in question into a rage.
So in all other scenarios, it's fine to use gray rock.
And basically you are retraining this maladaptive, dysfunctional person in
your life for the long term, pervasive, harmful patterns of
behavior that you've observed to realize that you're no longer
going to be giving them this attention, as.
Speaker 4: Some people call it narcissistic supply.
Speaker 5: So let's say they respond, they send you something and
it's a paragraph. You respond in one line in the
most boring way possible, and you do this over and
over again. You ignore their attempts to trigger you and
to get into some kind of an argument, and it's
helpful for you know, let's say family of origin situation
where you cannot cut off contact with, you know, your
boomer uncle.
Speaker 4: Who is a big I don't know, to a bush
fan or something like that.
Speaker 5: So you have to implement this over and over again
and be consistent and you're slowly retraining them once again
rough analogy of dog training, to think that you're no
longer going to be giving them this narcissistic supply. And
you send me that by Jamie, which I'm yet to watch,
but I saw the title has the word vampire, which
is very irrelevant.
Speaker 4: I mean, it sounds kind of exaggerated because these people
really feed.
Speaker 5: Off of your emotions and they don't care if these
are positive emotions or negative emotions. What they want is
your emotions because that validates them. So when they send
you something I hate to use the word triggering because
of the social justice associations, but basically something triggering in
an attempt to get you to argue with something that's
offensive to you, something.
Speaker 4: That's not true.
Speaker 5: What they want is this explosion of negative emotions coming
from you, and that's how they feed off of that,
which is why the vampire analogy is relevant. And this
is precisely why you're retraining them to realize that you're
no longer going to be doing this, You're just boring.
They're going to have to move on to another source
of not blood, but narcissistic supply.
Speaker 2: So if I spell vampire, pyre is just eccentricity.
Speaker 5: Or is that a narcissistic create Once again, I would
defer to doctor Phil and see what he would say
about that subject.
Speaker 2: He would probably debunk vampires.
Speaker 4: You would have to Oh, he would, yes, because he's
very rational. Yes, that's very true.
Speaker 2: But anyway, gaslighting. So talk about gas lighting because as
you know here on my channel, we have covered many,
many films, and one of the first films that we
covered in one of the lectures I did many years
ago was George Kukor's film Gaslight, which is a great movie.
Speaker 5: And yeah, I mean, do you want to tell your
listeners what briefly what the movie is about, that the
female protagonist is slowly being driven insane and how she's
being driven insane.
Speaker 2: So Ingrid Bergmann has a suitor, and her suitor is
a guy that she believes, his son, Dandy Fopp, of
some sort of noble character, and he's not.
Speaker 3: He's actually a con man.
Speaker 2: But he's fairly clever at his con artistry because he
has rigged a lot of things, including the house itself,
to appear to.
Speaker 3: Have ghosts and all the kinds of nonsense.
Speaker 2: And this drives Ingrid gradually more and more insane, believing
she's insane, and he's of course fostering this the entire time.
He's moving her objects around, throwing away objects, hiding objects,
telling her to her face. You know, after he's done stuff,
I didn't do that, you know, after he just obviously
did it, this kind of thing. So hence the term gaslight,
as it's known to most of us.
Speaker 3: I won't spoil the movie.
Speaker 2: You haven't seen it, because it's a great movie, but
tell us the signs of gaslighting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean so, the term comes from that film,
and it's basically a technique that is.
Speaker 4: Used over the long.
Speaker 5: Term in order to affect the very perception of reality
of your target. And the reasons for doing so maybe
simple control if it's a family of origin or romantic partner.
It may be something financial if it's a business partner,
so the reasons.
Speaker 4: For this may be very different. But the technique is
basically a way of.
Speaker 5: Having you experience a very piercing sense of cognitive dissonance
over and over again, and a lot of times it
starts off again in a seemingly benign way.
Speaker 4: This person does something that is not good.
Speaker 5: You have either witnessed it or yourself with your own eyes,
so again the five senses, or you've heard about it,
then you know this is factual information. And this person
begins denying it, foaming at the mouth, and they're believable.
And at first when this happens, you just scoff, like,
this is crazy. I can't believe he's denying something that
I've seen with my own eyes.
Speaker 4: But the way our psychology works is if.
Speaker 5: You are neurotypical and you see this, and then you
see this person is offended. This person stops talking to you,
and you start thinking about the way you would act
in a situation, and you think, well, I would be
very offended if someone didn't believe me because I was
telling the truth. And as time goes on, you know,
matter of days, maybe a week, you start justifying their excuses,
even though initially you may have witnessed what they're doing
with your own two eyes. And it's pretty remarkable that
this is the way. You know, our brain is wired
essentially to start questioning it. And so when this is
something that happens over and over again, as it happens
initially in each instance, you experience this sense of surreal
cognitive dissonance because it challenges what you're seeing as in
the movie the light's being.
Speaker 4: Dimmed, right, So.
Speaker 5: And basically there are all these kind of other factors
that are to be considered. So let's say it's an
abuse of romantic situation. The target is likely isolated from
their friends and family at the stage, there's not a
lot of validation of reality where you could say to
your sister, your best friend, whatever, all this happened, and
you know he or she can validate or not. So
your only reference to reality is this person who is
constantly gaslighting you. And it's actually pretty fascinating because I
think a lot of these YouTubers start off here and
then they extrapolate to you know, group level like cults
and then national and international level politics.
Speaker 4: Right in my case, it was the opposite.
Speaker 5: You know, you look at the way the media in
an echo chamber covers certain events and if you have
the benefit of being able to.
Speaker 4: Read or understand, how.
Speaker 5: Realize that you know, the weapons of mass destruction and
in Iraq we're not there, for instance, and this is
a way to you know, keep keep the population depending
on what the what the particular situation is.
Speaker 4: But it happens in the media and in politics on
a daily basis.
Speaker 2: So it's pretty sad because I did want to talk
about how people in the audience. You know, one of
the things that I've covered quite a bit is also
psychological warfare. So this all the stuff that Nina's mentioning
is very applicable to that realm of stuff as well.
So you'll notice patterns and similarities in the way that
the media, the way that propaganda works to gaslight as.
Speaker 4: Well, right exactly. And it's you know, I would love
to cover more of the subject, but again.
Speaker 5: Listening to or observing YouTube censorship policies, you kind of
have to be careful careful of that. But you could
talk about government a engaging in yes, a certain type
of a certain type of psyop operation whatever.
Speaker 3: So there was a good question.
Speaker 2: We'll do some questions here in a little bit if
you guys want to send super chats to see We've
got a few already and then I've got a few
that people have written down. That'll be good. But what
are you mentioned? One your newest video, you talk about
the tendency of the narcissist in your life to monopolize
and suck away your time, and you spend about twelve
minutes on that. Is there anything you want to remind
us about there? That is key, because this is another
one of the things that they do is that they
try to well.
Speaker 5: Basically, time is one of the parameters in which this
maladaptive individual can get his or her narcissistic supply attention.
In other words, and a lot of times it starts
off in a very seemingly benign way.
Speaker 4: Where as I've mentioned.
Speaker 5: There, you know, this might be someone who is a
little bit late, and of course we've all been late
because we've had legitimate reasons and there's a legitimate explanation,
and you write this off. But as time goes on,
you realize that you're constantly waiting around on this person
and basically, you know the statement could be made. You know,
we don't start until I get here, So there's that
sense of entitlement and grandiosity embedded into being late, and
then you slowly realize that it's being done deliberately. And
as this is happening, this is accompanied by other ways
of monopolizing your time, sort of complaining about you spending
you know, time on solitary hobbies, on your friends, and
a lot of times again it seems to sound legitimate.
This person wants to spend more time with you. And
again it doesn't have to be you know, romantic partner.
It could be a family of origin family member, and
eventually this person completely monopolizes you to the point where
you lose your very identity. It's also applicable to cult
psychology here, but it starts off and seemingly benign ways
by you know, not being punctual.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's great, Yeah, do you Let's see someone asked
a great question about do you see a connection between
like prevalent philosophies and society like nihilism. Could that contribute
to the prevalence of things like narcissism?
Speaker 5: Absolutely, there's There are multiple both psychologists and kind of
popular youtub risks who are not psychologists, who commented on this.
If you look at it's difficult to keep accurate statistics
of this because it's either mental health professionals reporting it
or it's self reported.
Speaker 4: But one statistics I had seen is that it's I.
Speaker 5: Think it's like zero point one percent of narcissism in
East Asia compared to the anywhere between two to ten
percent of diagnosable and PD in America. So there's clearly
something about the individualist culture with all the implications of
nihilism et cetera, et cetera, versus the more communally oriented
East Asians.
Speaker 4: And of course they're also affected by you know, globalism
and so forth.
Speaker 5: But some of these studies that I'd seen had significant
differences in documenting these conditions at the level of a
personality disorder. So if you think about the types of
values that are promoted in our culture in terms of
cutthroat competition in the workplace, so that you know, you
want to become a CEO, you want to run a company,
you probably don't want to have too much empathy, which
empathy lacking is one of the.
Speaker 4: Traits of narcissism.
Speaker 5: You probably don't want to have too much empathy if
you have to lay off twelve hundred people.
Speaker 4: So all of these things that are good for business.
Speaker 5: Are actually, in let's say, in the short in the
short term, maybe not in the long term, are actually
traits of narcissism. So if they're being promoted as a
cultural value, then you know, what, how can we how
can we function if it's if it's considered to be
a positive in the workplace to be highly successful and
it's considered to be awful in interpersonal relationships.
Speaker 4: There is this real significant clash. So, I mean it's
we could.
Speaker 5: Extrapolate this to the criticism of late stage capitalism to
be to make it even more broad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the social uh uh social Darwinism in terms of capitalism,
it's the same, the same mindset here. And actually, if
you have the John Ronson book, which that's the one
that I have on on psychopaths, his psychopath Test, he
covers some of those characteristics as well as especially in
the realm of CEOs and and you know, people in
hedge funds and this kind of stuff, that that's the
perfect arena for this kind of yes, a conscience free
zone right where we're freed from yes exactly.
Speaker 5: So it's it's pretty remarkable that all you know, and
you watch some of these you know, I'm all four
girls being professionally accomplished. But when you watch these promotional
videos with what do you want to be when you
grow up and they say I want to be a CEO,
they don't even say of what, They just have that
social status of being, you know, at the top of
the corporation. It's it's a pretty scary. It's a pretty
scary thing that's happening.
Speaker 2: So do you advocate becoming a super narcissist to defeat
the narcissist in your life.
Speaker 5: It's actually kind of funny that you mentioned this. I
don't know if you're familiar with Sam Wacknin, but he's
one of these. If you google narcissism, he's one of
the first people to come up. He is not a
psychologist or a mental health professional. Nonetheless, there is kind
of this love hate relationship. Some people absolutely consider him
an expert and invite him to thens. Other people are
pretty skeptical of him. He claims to be a diagnosed narcissist.
According to a movie in which he was in, he
is a diagnosed psychopath.
Speaker 4: Which I guess says he's also a narcissist.
Speaker 5: But he basically almost has that strategy that he is
challenging narcissism by being a super narcissist because he understands
it himself so well, and supposedly he was a genius,
like a wounder kind in Israel when he grew up,
so he clearly has enough intelligence to extrapolate. You know that,
like usually narcissists are not supposed to have that level
of self reflection.
Speaker 4: Clearly is he is self aware.
Speaker 5: I find, you know, he's one of the first if
you when you start going down the rabbit hole of
a subject, he's probably the first person you'll find. And
I find a lot of his work very useful, you know.
And I'm not, you know, communicating with him.
Speaker 4: As a friend.
Speaker 5: So it doesn't matter to me if he's a diagnosed narcissist,
psychopath or whatever else.
Speaker 4: If you want to look up a movie called I
Psychopath on YouTube, I think it's in like eight parts
or ten parts, it's about him. It's fascinating.
Speaker 5: So anyway, So but here is this super narcissist who
is now on a crusade to fight narcissists, in a
very grandiose crusade. It's it's a pretty interesting it's a
pretty interesting phenomenon, and I'm pretty sure he understands that.
Speaker 2: So he's like Dexter He's going to take out.
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly, He's the Dexter of malignant narcissism.
Speaker 4: I mean he's very great.
Speaker 5: I mean his book Malignant Self Love Narcissism Are Visited
is like a Doorstopper.
Speaker 4: It's like books on Heider Girl all put together. It's
like a thousand pages or something. It's amazing.
Speaker 2: Somebody asked, have you seen the documentary Party Monster, and
would this guy qualify?
Speaker 5: I have not, but just based on the title, it
sounds like this is someone with very low impulse control,
so clearly there's Again, just based on the title, it's
it sounds like there are some dysfunctional traits that could
be present.
Speaker 2: Yes, I define, go ahead and remind me who the
I don't remember who. You said this documentary is about who?
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's as far as popular culture goes,
I mean, we haven't talked about the borderline personality disorder,
which is usually associated with women, although there's certainly men
who have that, and sometimes it's described as female narcissism.
The one or two differences is the fact that there's
pretty significant suicidal ideation, and there's some borderlines who are
kind of harmful to themselves, but there's some who are
harmful to others. So the two movies that you could
think of that portray this in popular culture would be Fatal.
Speaker 4: Attraction and Single White Female.
Speaker 5: So if you've ever experienced a female stalker who is
trying to be like you, trying to interfere in your marriage, etc.
Speaker 2: Etc. Like I have.
Speaker 5: It's a pretty terrifying thing. So that's another sort of
predatory personality that we haven't discussed. I haven't really covered much,
but in popular culture it's certainly, it's certainly there.
Speaker 2: Do you have any brief comments on analysis on why
that manifests the way that it does? What is the
what's your analysis of why a A? Is it a A?
An extreme lack of what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 3: Are they searching for an identity in.
Speaker 2: Trying to.
Speaker 5: The Usually the official psychological reason is that they experienced
significant childhood trauma. They completely lack their identity, so they
search and you know, you probably have seen like the
high school girlfriend with every new boyfriend, she completely adapts
his music, tastes, his you know, interests, skateboarding, guitars, whatever.
Speaker 4: Like you've seen that. Granted in high school it.
Speaker 5: Might have been, you know, just just a little bit
of infertility, but yes, it's basically lacking identity. And you know,
the fact that they have pretty significant suicidal ideations should
tell you about their emotional state and their mood swings.
But their perception of reality is like with narcissist, is
quite skewed, and you know, to put it in Layman's terms,
they take it out on you. So and they have
this insane fear of abandonment which you see in these films.
Speaker 2: So Party Monster says, this is the two thousand and
three film directed by Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato about
the New York City party promoter named Michael Allig.
Speaker 4: And he's, oh, I know the story. I have not
seen a movie interesting supposed.
Speaker 5: To be Yeah, I mean people, Yeah, I mean if
you if you start looking at you know sometimes I
binge in the form of a podcast, I guess on
you know, true crime on YouTube, and you start looking
at it from that perspective, or the new about certain famous.
Speaker 4: Politician or whoever.
Speaker 5: It really opens your eyes to what's going on and
you can almost predict what the next thing that's going
to come is because you have looked at these traits
in kind of a complex way.
Speaker 3: So what do you think about American Psycho.
Speaker 2: I know it's a satire, but do you think that
it's relevant to this in any way?
Speaker 4: It is relevant?
Speaker 5: I have not seen it, so I probably should refrain
from from from comments. Let's see, yeah, I mean I
literally sometimes listen to these I mean again going down
the rabbit hole of crime true crime on YouTube. You know,
there's a lot of there are a lot of interrogations
like judy areas and things like that. I mean, it's
pretty pretty fascinating to some of those. What is it
Al Kamanassian's interrogation? I believe his trial should be starting
as far as in cells go, either now or it
has started in Canada, and you listen to the interrogation
and it's just amazing from you know, in a bad
way to keep recognizing these traits based on what they're saying.
Speaker 2: So all right, so the well, look we'll move to
the superchats. Now, by the way, I have Nina's channels
link there if you want to subscribe to her content.
She's putting out videos pretty regularly on these topics. It's
there in the description, so subscribe to her.
Speaker 3: And let's see. We got Palmer Eric, He's l I
can't say.
Speaker 2: My owes anymore?
Speaker 3: Is how would you analyse the people who can't say
now owe is? What's now? Deficiency? Palmer l Rick.
Speaker 2: Two dollars try hearing trying trying hear some.
Speaker 3: Nick cage bring the Cajun rage.
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. Palmer again says thank you
for the quality content, you bet, Palmer, much appreciated for
those superchats.
Speaker 3: Twenty dollars, much appreciate.
Speaker 2: Russian anime bot five dollars, says my KJB, my KGB
tithe best to you, comrades. You're welcome, man, Dougan, give
you a mystical could blessing red now.
Speaker 4: With yeh KGB FSB g r U or whatever the
new The new term for it is Mongolia supremacist is
what I like.
Speaker 3: Mongolian supremacist.
Speaker 2: There we go, blessing fresh, whole milk seven, good work,
comrades from Soviet Union.
Speaker 3: Soon Dugan will destroy all of white men.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what we're here for to.
Speaker 4: Have you actually. As a side note, have you seen
Dugan's Facebook lately?
Speaker 3: I do not keep post.
Speaker 4: I mean it's public content. I think anyone could see it.
Speaker 5: But he posts these bizarre puppets that I think they're
cats or dogs.
Speaker 4: They look very retro and creepy, and but it's like
in a philosophical context, so either he is like a
supertroll or Superman kind of. I'm kind of just he's
super meaning.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, Meta, Mimi.
Speaker 3: Anybody else have any super chats? We had a good
chat here.
Speaker 2: This is uh.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to keep my shows.
Speaker 2: Now to around our hour a little over an hour,
so we've had fun. I had one last question about
do you are you familiar with the technique of mama
birding in these situations?
Speaker 4: Sorr? Are you just you're breaking up for me now
what you said? Uh?
Speaker 2: In terms of dealing with psychopaths, are you familiar with
the technique that some people recommend of mama birding?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: I have not.
Speaker 4: What is that? It's interesting.
Speaker 2: It's basically where you will chew up the food for
the person, spit it into their mouth, and they're so
disoriented by this practice that you basically train them to
be your baby bird.
Speaker 4: Have you seen this on Doctor Hill?
Speaker 2: I was just some nonsense I made.
Speaker 4: No, I just.
Speaker 3: Yes, I saw dude on.
Speaker 2: There was a dude on there the other day who
said that he's Batman.
Speaker 5: Oh okay, I did you see the one with a
lady who was convinced that she's communicating with Putin psychically
or something like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was kind of awesome, but also kind of disturbing.
Speaker 5: I think obviously they'rey exploited of to have someone that Yeah,
that's what people are.
Speaker 2: I noticed it.
Speaker 3: There's a couple of episodes where when the people walk off.
Speaker 2: I can't tell what's dramatized and staged drama on that
show and what's real. But the two times that I
have seen clips of people getting directed to leave, it's
when they called doctor Phil out on the drama. They're like,
you ain't doing nothing, You ain't doing nothing but sitting
here trying to capitalize on my situation and call drama
and make a scene.
Speaker 3: That's when he'll go, you need to get up, right
down and walk out of the door.
Speaker 5: That's why you don't call doctor Phil and narcissis to
his face.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's how you get looted, all right. Yeah, people
are in the chatter like wtf to my mama Burder.
Speaker 3: I just always make them.
Speaker 5: Mom, this this is what happens when you have particular
YouTube advertising.
Speaker 4: And obviously J and I have the same Doctor Phil clips.
Speaker 2: Yeah, mine controlled me. I have Doctor Phil is my
handler now and it's no longer do get this my handler,
it's now doctor Phil so there's no telling what.
Speaker 4: That's a lot more. That's a lot more covert, I'm sure.
Speaker 5: Again, don't tell the Daily Beast because this might be
a headline tomorrow.
Speaker 3: So okay, I forgot to put your Twitter on there.
I will put it in the show description later.
Speaker 2: But if you want to follow her on Twitter, it
is Nina Byzantina, very easy to find and of course
again subscribe to her channel. They're inside the Mind of
a Human Predator.
Speaker 3: A lot of good videos there. Anything else you want
to leave us with, Nina.
Speaker 4: I no, thank you for having me.
Speaker 5: I will try to carefully pursue either the political direction
or kind of more popular cultural commentary, again with the
within the parameters of YouTube. So I think if people
are interested in kind of greater meaning behind some of
these maladaptive traits and how it can apply not only
to their immediate surroundings, but you know, the greater culture
at large, international politics, I'm definitely going to pursue that
angle carefully.
Speaker 2: Awesome, all right, so thank you.
Speaker 3: For having met. I can come back anytime. Oh yeah,
you did one last.
Speaker 2: Thing before we go, For people that are interested in
one of your videos, you have a few of the
book recommendations. You don't have to list all five unless
you know them off top of your head. If you
want to list some of the books that you found relevant,
you have a video on that. But what are the
ones that you think are good for.
Speaker 5: This possible Nickson Suits is the first one I mentioned
by doctor Hare, and of course you know his other
work on his other works on psychopaths meant for general
public are very helpful. Joan of Varro's The x FBI
Agent Dangerous Personalities is amazing and he's not a psychologist,
but as someone who had worked in that criminal field,
he basically and that was my number one book, which
is why I'm focusing on it now. He isolates four
personality types, so it's not quite according to the cluster
B criteria, but sometimes it coincides.
Speaker 4: And he gives you these amazingly long checklists.
Speaker 5: So if you do have a maladaptive person in your life,
you can look at the one hundred and twenty points,
let's say, for one of them that he gives you,
and you can just kind of check them off to
see if you know the person you're dealing with is
actually quite harmful and it's not just all in your head.
So that's another book. And there's doctor Romanie's Should I
Stare or Should I Go? A book of narcissism in
terms of exactly what it says, how do I handle
a situation from which I cannot leave?
Speaker 4: And I believe I had one legal one, which was splitting.
Speaker 5: I think it was about divorcing a narcissist or a borderline,
which was more like practical advice. And I cannot, for
the life of me remember what was number five, But
I think my kindle on my iPad has probably fifty
titles on the subject. Again for popular consumption, but that
kind of tells you that, you know, they're not the
kinds of books that I'd want to display on a bookshelf,
but it's.
Speaker 4: Pretty convenient to download them. They're you know, affordable, and
you could highlight stuff that's useful for you. So a
lot of those.
Speaker 5: Sounds may sound like captain obvious stuff, but it really
isn't until you've experienced it yourself, and then you can
look at patterns.
Speaker 4: Most people look at incidents, they do.
Speaker 5: Not look at patterns, and that's when you you know,
the rose colored glasses fall off and you realize what
you're dealing with so awesome.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much and probably we'll have you
back Sin to talk about something equally as interesting.
Speaker 4: But this was great more called stuff. Absolutely, Thank you,
j I'll talk to you soon