Speaker 1: Oh, be the.
Speaker 2: Trigger Warren.
Speaker 3: This podcast may include explicit content that will take you
Speaker 3: out of your comfort zone and make you question reality.
Speaker 4: Listener's discretion is advised.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to the show. This is Blood
Speaker 2: Ties Part two and it's Julia and Colby again and
Speaker 2: I'm so excited for this one. In the last episode
Speaker 2: we covered a lot of ground. We talked about Charles
Speaker 2: manson Zodiac. What else did we talk about?
Speaker 4: The all scene I guiding everything together?
Speaker 2: And so we're going to kind of pick up where
Speaker 2: we left off in the last episode and then add
Speaker 2: a few new characters to the list. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to reveal who they are yet, but I'm excited.
Speaker 4: I'm excited too. I have no quaking idea what we're
Speaker 4: going to be talking about tonight.
Speaker 2: You're just down for the ride, right yep? Okay, Well,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start us off with a quote as usual,
Speaker 2: and this one is from George Esterbrooks in hip Nati,
Speaker 2: which is a really great book. Quote. We locate a
Speaker 2: number of good hypnotic subjects among the criminal class. We
Speaker 2: then isolate and train these subjects. If allowed a freehand,
Speaker 2: the authorities could proceed to plant such prepared subjects from
Speaker 2: the criminal class where it would do the most good
Speaker 2: end quote. So it was kind of like we were
Speaker 2: saying with Charles Manson that they look for people who
Speaker 2: are usually in insane asylums, jails, or like boys town,
Speaker 2: where their parents have just like forgotten them and just
Speaker 2: left them there. Actually, Marilyn Monroe, they found her in
Speaker 2: a similar place. And if you have nobody that cares
Speaker 2: about you and doesn't care what happens to you, those
Speaker 2: are the best subjects because they can just take you
Speaker 2: and do whatever they want to you.
Speaker 4: Well, I find it interesting that this Esterbooks fellow, who
Speaker 4: I don't know who he is, he implied that they
Speaker 4: were put in society to.
Speaker 2: Do the most good, where it would do the most good,
Speaker 2: as in, like I take it to be like they're good,
Speaker 2: like the most useful, the most useful, like they could
Speaker 2: make the most use out of them. Kind of that's
Speaker 2: how I took it. But I mean, fuck all of
Speaker 2: them really, because there was running game on everybody, so
Speaker 2: kind of picking up where we left off in the
Speaker 2: last episode. Remarkably enough, the crimes collectively attributed to the
Speaker 2: men in the last episode did not even account for
Speaker 2: all the ritualized Thomas side that occurred in the Bay
Speaker 2: Area during that time. For example, the murder of Fred Bennett,
Speaker 2: who was the captain of the Oakland chapter of the
Speaker 2: Black Panthers, whose mutilated remains were found scattered in the
Speaker 2: Santa Cruz Hills and it was never solved. And many
Speaker 2: of the young students who were reported missing from local
Speaker 2: campuses were never found either dead or alive, and were
Speaker 2: therefore never listed as homicide victims conveniently. What do you
Speaker 2: think about that?
Speaker 4: Just based on what we talked about in our last episode,
Speaker 4: it seems like the Santa Cruz Hills was quite the
Speaker 4: place back in this what early seventies, people are just
Speaker 4: turning up either ritualistically torn apart or never turned up
Speaker 4: at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, while these kids go missing from local campuses and
Speaker 2: they're never found either dead or alive, but conveniently they
Speaker 2: can't be listed as homicide victims because they never found
Speaker 2: the bodies.
Speaker 4: And who's to say that they weren't found and it
Speaker 4: was just so gruesome and horrific they just kind of
Speaker 4: didn't publicize it, or you shoved it under and put
Speaker 4: it in Pile thirteen.
Speaker 2: It's actually crazy you say that because I have an
Speaker 2: example of just what you're talking about. So on October twelfth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four, the birthday of Alistair Crowley, student Arles
Speaker 2: Perry was brutally murdered and left on display in the
Speaker 2: Stanford Memorial Church on the campus of Stanford University, nestled
Speaker 2: in the shadows of the Santa Cruz Mountains. Now get
Speaker 2: this shit. Perry was left laying on her back with
Speaker 2: her head toward the altar and her legs spread wide open.
Speaker 2: She was nude from the waist down, and an altar
Speaker 2: candle was shoved into her vagina. Another altar candle was
Speaker 2: wedged between her tits that were hanging out on display.
Speaker 2: Her genes had been neatly arranged in an inverted V
Speaker 2: shape and placed across her open legs, forming the Masonic
Speaker 2: symbol of the compass and the square. But what's interesting
Speaker 2: is five years earlier, that very same symbol had been
Speaker 2: left carved into the stomach of who Manson Victim Lino
Speaker 2: LaBianca as the W in the word war. Just saying
Speaker 2: a lot of fucking, ritualistic, fucking murders that are popping
Speaker 2: up in this time. Five years earlier, LaBianca with the
Speaker 2: w and then we have Arlest Perry, which I had
Speaker 2: never heard about before. They didn't, like you would think
Speaker 2: out of all of the sensationalized crime scenes like all
Speaker 2: like they always like to like show bashed in heads
Speaker 2: and fucking sharing Tate with their pregnant bell and shit,
Speaker 2: had you ever heard of that?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: And the symbology of it's even weirder. It's like low
Speaker 4: hanging fruit for the you know, the sensationalization that the
Speaker 4: media is so fond of when it comes to this
Speaker 4: kind of stuff. So you would thought that in nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy four, only five years after the Manson killings, you
Speaker 4: get something like this.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you're you're not exactly I'm a Christian,
Speaker 2: not saying I if you're not a Christian like I'm
Speaker 2: judging you or anything, But I tend to think a
Speaker 2: lot of this stuff is ritualistic and satanic in nature.
Speaker 2: And you probably disagree with that, But I mean, what
Speaker 2: do you think. Do you think that they do this
Speaker 2: just to put on a fucking show or do you
Speaker 2: think that there's something like actually ritualistic about it?
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, regardless of what I believe, these people certainly
Speaker 4: seem to believe in something that if you want to
Speaker 4: attribute it to the Satanic elements in the Bible, that's fine.
Speaker 4: I think these people learn into a whole other thing,
Speaker 4: and trying to see it through the eyes of Christianity
Speaker 4: is one way to look at it. I don't tend to.
Speaker 2: So what do you think, What do you think? Do
Speaker 2: you think they get something out of it? Like they
Speaker 2: do this and they have this candle shoved into her
Speaker 2: puss and they fucking have her tits hanging out and
Speaker 2: do all this like this is a ritual or they
Speaker 2: just do this to like throw people off the scent
Speaker 2: that it's something else.
Speaker 4: Oh, I think it could be a bit of both.
Speaker 4: I mean we've talked and you have on some earlier
Speaker 4: episodes in the earlier series that the show True Detective
Speaker 4: was a really good example of like an organized thing
Speaker 4: and then a little bit of blowback when one of
Speaker 4: the people who was partaking in the initial rituals just
Speaker 4: kind of went off and started doing his own thing,
Speaker 4: and you know, they thought they had caught the killer,
Speaker 4: and then years later it starts resurfacing. Who knows, I mean,
Speaker 4: this could be people like Michael Lochino. It could be,
Speaker 4: you know, more of the tortured souls who went over
Speaker 4: and were just set loose in Vietnam. Or it could
Speaker 4: have been just a whole other you know, set up
Speaker 4: for theater, But it doesn't seem to be that way
Speaker 4: because it wasn't covered in such a way. So but
Speaker 4: do I think there's satanic elements to it? I mean,
Speaker 4: if that's the bigger question, I would say yes. And
Speaker 4: just because I don't believe in certain things doesn't mean
Speaker 4: that I can't see it through the way these people
Speaker 4: who are doing it do, and they certainly seem to
Speaker 4: believe in something.
Speaker 2: Okay, do you think that they're getting results? Like obviously
Speaker 2: that they wouldn't keep doing it if they weren't, Like, so.
Speaker 4: What are you asking me if like they get more
Speaker 4: power from some dark underlord when they kill in this way? Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean I feel like.
Speaker 2: Like, why would they keep doing it if like they
Speaker 2: weren't getting something out.
Speaker 4: Of it, you think, I mean, if they're not getting
Speaker 4: anything else, they could be getting clout in the club
Speaker 4: they belong to. They could be That's a good point.
Speaker 4: But yeah, do I think that the fucking sky's part
Speaker 4: and lightning bolts come down and there's a dark voice saying, oh,
Speaker 4: you're more powerful now killed for me. No, I don't
Speaker 4: think of it like that.
Speaker 2: So it could be like a clout chasing though, well
Speaker 2: I think that, Like, look at this one I did,
Speaker 2: and I fucking had her tits hanging out and a
Speaker 2: fucking pussy.
Speaker 4: Why not. I mean, look what I did with their jeans.
Speaker 4: I put them in this shape. If you're trying to
Speaker 4: climb like an art form to them. Yeah, if you're
Speaker 4: trying to climb the ranks you want to impress your
Speaker 4: bosses or you know, maybe it was given as an
Speaker 4: order from on high, would in whatever societies or clubs
Speaker 4: these people belong to. That, Yeah, this is an initiation.
Speaker 4: If you want to climb higher, you have to do
Speaker 4: such and such. I mean they've said as much in
Speaker 4: the official narrative of like the family, the Manson family.
Speaker 2: Well, the reason I bring that up is because with
Speaker 2: the Labyanca and like they carved this w it was
Speaker 2: with like with a fork or something, and they did
Speaker 2: all this like hoopla. I think, like with the Lobbyanca
Speaker 2: and with Tate, they did things to throw people off,
Speaker 2: and like the helter Skelter and like death to the
Speaker 2: Pigs or whatever they wrote in blood and like.
Speaker 4: Well helter Skelter was a figment of the Buglios, you know,
Speaker 4: race worthing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but so they left like these elements, well, like.
Speaker 4: The word pigs yeah and all that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, so this could potentially be theater.
Speaker 4: What we see, like this looks a lot like the
Speaker 4: stuff that was going on with Manson. Yeah, sure, I
Speaker 4: mean they're saying they're saying it's very.
Speaker 2: Means and esque.
Speaker 4: Well, the La Bianca killings. You know, I don't know.
Speaker 4: We could go back into what was said in the
Speaker 4: last episode about how these things kind of happened in
Speaker 4: tandem and then they're reproduced a few years later. Yet
Speaker 4: the people obviously are incarcerated who did the Manson killings
Speaker 4: at this point as far as everybody's concerned. But who's
Speaker 4: still giving the order or is it copycast shit?
Speaker 2: Oh that's that could be. That could be a really
Speaker 2: good point.
Speaker 4: I mean, it could be either I'm not willing to
Speaker 4: marry myself to either.
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me tell you a little something
Speaker 2: about this and then we'll kind of move on. But
Speaker 2: the prime suspect actually in the still unsolved murder of
Speaker 2: Perry is a man named Bill Mintzer, who knew Charles
Speaker 2: Manson and at least one of his victims, Abigail Folger.
Speaker 2: In fact, Minzer reportedly had lunch with Folger just a
Speaker 2: few days before her death. But it doesn't stop there.
Speaker 2: He was later connected to David Son of Sam Berkowitz
Speaker 2: as well, and would later be convicted of the Cotton
Speaker 2: Club murder of aspiring film producer Roy Radden. So essentially
Speaker 2: they're saying the prime suspect was someone who not only
Speaker 2: knew Manson, but knew Abigail Folger and knew David Berkowitz
Speaker 2: and ended up murdering this fucking film producer guy. So
Speaker 2: that's probably why they draw connections between the Labyanka and
Speaker 2: this one, because it's, like you said, it's like a
Speaker 2: fucked up spider web, and they're all kind of like
Speaker 2: doing these weird ritual, like theater esque type murders.
Speaker 3: In a scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of
Speaker 3: a weird religious rite, five persons, including actress Sharon Tape,
Speaker 3: were found dead at the home of Miss Tait and
Speaker 3: her husband, screen director Roman Polanski. Miss Tait, who starred
Speaker 3: in Valley of the Dolls, was eight months pregnant and
Speaker 3: was found in a bikini type nightgown with a rope
Speaker 3: around her neck attached to the body of a man.
Speaker 3: Among the other victims were Hollywood hair stylists Jay C.
Speaker 3: Bring and coffee heiress Abigail Folger. Authorities would allow no
Speaker 3: one in an unofficial capacity inside the Posh two hundred
Speaker 3: thousand dollars home in the hills overlooking Los Angeles. Poyansky,
Speaker 3: who directed Rosemary's Baby and other films of suspense, reportedly
Speaker 3: is in Europe. One of the first officers on the scene,
Speaker 3: police Sergeant Stanley Conrad Well at the scene.
Speaker 6: We had one body in a vehicle near the gate,
Speaker 6: a man and a woman in the main room, and
Speaker 6: a man and a woman on the lawn in front
Speaker 6: of the house, all deceased.
Speaker 1: By what form at least stupid Here.
Speaker 6: Heard to be knife punctures, possibly gunshot, we can't tell.
Speaker 6: We don't know for sure this time.
Speaker 7: Was the urey in disarray or was it?
Speaker 6: There were signs of a struggle in the main house
Speaker 6: and also in the guesthouse in the rear.
Speaker 2: Whether a television set going or radio rowing.
Speaker 6: Or no, there's no TV going, the radio is not
Speaker 6: going to lights were on. One suspect was arrested in
Speaker 6: the prayer house. The guesthouse looking.
Speaker 3: Into custody by officers was the homes nineteen year old caretaker,
Speaker 3: William Garretson. He was arrested on suspicion of murder. When
Speaker 3: police arrived, they found the telephones and electricity lines cut.
Speaker 3: The bodies had been dead about twelve hours. They were
Speaker 3: discovered this morning by a maid who ran screaming to neighbors.
Speaker 3: One officer summed up the murders when he said, in
Speaker 3: all my years, I have never seen anything like this before.
Speaker 3: Josh Darsy's CBS News Los Angeles.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's just interesting that this guy was eating
Speaker 4: lunch with Abigail Fullger. It's something that I think maybe
Speaker 4: it was when I was reading Chaos. It kind of
Speaker 4: just occurred to me that all of these people could
Speaker 4: have been running in the same cult, including Sharon Tate,
Speaker 4: Roman Polanski, the people that were there that night, you know,
Speaker 4: JC brings in it. What if they all were a
Speaker 4: part of this club, and if the murders really did happen,
Speaker 4: which I'm not entirely sure of, but if they did,
Speaker 4: what if it was like this group of people did
Speaker 4: something to slight the rules, or you know, just something
Speaker 4: deliberate in a kind of a fuck you manner, and
Speaker 4: this was a message to everybody else, because if Manson
Speaker 4: really did, that made an example like you step out
Speaker 4: of line, and this is what happens to you. Because
Speaker 4: it never did really make sense that the theory that
Speaker 4: Manson had been burned by the music producer Terry Melcher,
Speaker 4: who lived in that house years previous. Then he still
Speaker 4: knew that it wasn't him that was there. But for
Speaker 4: some reason, this group of people, they were just casualties
Speaker 4: of some sick fuck, which never did really make sense.
Speaker 4: You don't just attack your random when you're making a
Speaker 4: big spectacle of it. So it always did seem like
Speaker 4: they could have just.
Speaker 2: Been it if that's what you were trying to do.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, I got slided by this music producer
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna fu show him. Wouldn't you fucking make
Speaker 2: sure where the motherfucker lived first before you like send
Speaker 2: your family members quote unquote out to do this shit,
Speaker 2: Like you might check to make sure you got the
Speaker 2: right address.
Speaker 4: He had and he knew that Terry wasn't there anymore.
Speaker 2: So what was the point of it?
Speaker 5: Then?
Speaker 4: Well we all know.
Speaker 2: Is what it does.
Speaker 4: Well, if you've done enough research into Roman Polanski, you
Speaker 4: know that he was involved with some dark people and
Speaker 4: some dark shit, and it makes more sense to me
Speaker 4: that those people were the targets. It wasn't just like, oh,
Speaker 4: Terry used to live here, and Charlie Manson was just like, yeah,
Speaker 4: go to that house where the guy I'm mad at
Speaker 4: used to live and just kill whoever's in there.
Speaker 2: Put that out.
Speaker 4: They all partied together, Yeah, all these yeah, were on
Speaker 4: each other's peripheries. So yeah, the whole like it was
Speaker 4: just incidental. That's a narrative that they've tried to push
Speaker 4: time and time again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no way. And so a few years after Perry's murder,
Speaker 2: a new rash of serial killings began in nearby Sacramento, California.
Speaker 2: These were ultimately attributed to a man named Richard Chase,
Speaker 2: also known as the Vampire of Sacramento and the Draculate Killer.
Speaker 2: But what's crazy is killers like Chase, Manson, kemper Mullen,
Speaker 2: the Zodiac, Frasier, and Baker that we talked about in
Speaker 2: the last episode harolded the dawn of a new era
Speaker 2: that soon had established serial killers as an ever present
Speaker 2: part of the American landscape. Before nineteen sixty, fewer than
Speaker 2: two serial killers a year were reported nationwide. By nineteen seventy,
Speaker 2: the number had climbed to six per year by nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty to nearly twenty three per year. By nineteen ninety,
Speaker 2: nearly three dozen serial killers a year were being reported
Speaker 2: across the country. The nineteen sixties were responsible for not
Speaker 2: only ushering in the beginnings of the counterculture hippie movement,
Speaker 2: but also the dawning of the serial killer. What do
Speaker 2: you think about that?
Speaker 4: About which part like how it kind of just was
Speaker 4: spawned in that era and then just kind of grew expendable.
Speaker 2: Well, it's skyrocketed after that, like nineteen seventy six per year,
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nearly twenty per year, nineteen ninety three dozen
Speaker 2: serial killers a year.
Speaker 4: Well, I saw some figure on a random Twitter post
Speaker 4: a while back, and it was claiming that there was
Speaker 4: over God, I want to say, they said there was
Speaker 4: over one hundred active serial killers right now in this country,
Speaker 4: which I don't know. I had a a young guy
Speaker 4: working for me he was like twenty two years old,
Speaker 4: and his mother had dated a serial killer that is
Speaker 4: incarcerated to this day, and he was killing when he
Speaker 4: was with her. Oh, and she said, well, she narrowly escaped.
Speaker 4: He ended up like she ended up breaking up with
Speaker 4: him and getting rid of him, and then she kind
Speaker 4: of just stopped thinking about him. And then a few
Speaker 4: years later he was arrested and she knew it was
Speaker 4: him and was like, holy fuck, I dated that guy.
Speaker 2: He was murdering bitches.
Speaker 4: He was like the I five bandit or some weird
Speaker 4: shit like that. Sounds like the Home Alone movie you're watching.
Speaker 5: Northern crimes.
Speaker 8: The Pacific Northwest Highways are often shrouded in fog, missed
Speaker 8: rolls in from the ocean, casting an eerie silence over
Speaker 8: these long and winding roads. And on a cold January
Speaker 8: night in nineteen eighty one, the quiet town of Kaiser,
Speaker 8: Organ was plunged into darkness by a shocking and brutal crime.
Speaker 8: Inside a dimly lit office building, two young women working
Speaker 8: the night shift as cleaners were unaware of their lives
Speaker 8: were about to change irrevocably. Little did they know a
Speaker 8: man had slipped into the building with deadly intent. Within
Speaker 8: moments he attacked. One woman wouldn't survive, but the other
Speaker 8: would live to tell a tale that would bring fear
Speaker 8: to everyone along the West coast, busiest and most notorious highway.
Speaker 8: This is the true story of the I five murders.
Speaker 8: And this is Northern Crimes.
Speaker 2: My god. And she didn't get creep, which is why
Speaker 2: she broke up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean she was with him for like a
Speaker 4: few months, maybe up to like half a year, and
Speaker 4: then you know, kicked him to the curb. A few
Speaker 4: years later, he ends up on Channel five news.
Speaker 2: That's fucking crazy. Yeah, in Oregon.
Speaker 4: And I had never it was all up and down
Speaker 4: the corridor, the I five from Washington State down to California,
Speaker 4: and he had killed in like Oregon. Yeah, he'd killed
Speaker 4: all along the coast.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me ask you something.
Speaker 4: And they were all women too, like, so she could have.
Speaker 2: Been like could have been a victim for sure potentially.
Speaker 2: But so let me ask you something. You remember how
Speaker 2: I told you, Like I used to watch true crime
Speaker 2: stuff with my mom when I was a kid, and
Speaker 2: it kind of traumatized me, thinking like I could get
Speaker 2: murdered at any time, Like, and then I do series
Speaker 2: like this, and I tell everybody like serial killers are
Speaker 2: mostly CIA and it's all fucking staged and it's all like,
Speaker 2: you know, puppeteering and shit like that. But then I
Speaker 2: a story like that and then like somebody saying there's
Speaker 2: over one hundred active serial killers right now just in
Speaker 2: the US or yeah, and that's you.
Speaker 4: Know, I don't even remember how high the number was.
Speaker 4: I just remember thinking it was extremely high.
Speaker 2: But like your friend's mom, like, they're so, could there
Speaker 2: be like a fucking like half of this shit is
Speaker 2: stage and half this shit is like actual insane motherfucker's
Speaker 2: actually murdering bitches up and down the coast.
Speaker 4: To get back to your original question to me, they
Speaker 4: started something in the nineteen sixties, apparently sometimes intentional and
Speaker 4: very likely at other times it was just like the
Speaker 4: shit we talked about being like uncontrollable blowback from the
Speaker 4: Phoenix program and other such things. So if you started
Speaker 4: something and you start a social contagion and you start
Speaker 4: m kale through programming to the masses on other levels
Speaker 4: such as video games, I think we all know about
Speaker 4: those things. And then so you see, like by the
Speaker 4: year in nineteen seventy, it's half a dozen a year,
Speaker 4: and then ten years later it's increased to twenty a year.
Speaker 4: It's just like you tipped over a domino in California
Speaker 4: in the sixties, and whatever plans you had implemented to
Speaker 4: like start this phenomena, they would take off in their
Speaker 4: own way. And also when you're just messing with kids,
Speaker 4: like on these other things you've talked about, you know,
Speaker 4: hundreds of them at a time are getting traumatized, So
Speaker 4: you're creating all sorts of shit you don't even know, like.
Speaker 2: How sing them.
Speaker 4: Well, You're you're abusing them from a very young age,
Speaker 4: which is what you want to do when it's an
Speaker 4: isolated event, is get a kid, traumatize it as early
Speaker 4: as in the womb or their number seems to be
Speaker 4: like as long as you can get to them by
Speaker 4: the age of three, they're in your hands. So when
Speaker 4: you're taking all these preschool aged kids who are still
Speaker 4: in that you know, mental capacity of a young toddler,
Speaker 4: then then you're sexually abusing them, and you're making them
Speaker 4: do rituals, you're making them watch snuff films. You are
Speaker 4: setting the stage for whatever the fuck's gonna happen after
Speaker 4: those kids get out on their own. For every fucking
Speaker 4: parent who notices the kid was getting abused and was
Speaker 4: put through the ringer of the system, you have probably
Speaker 4: hundreds that didn't and what happened to them that could
Speaker 4: be what we're seeing here.
Speaker 2: That is a fucking really good point because it's like
Speaker 2: we watched is it called The Doors?
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Oliverstone movie.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so you have me watch it. It's great.
Speaker 2: Fucking Val Kilmer looks just like fucking Jim Morrison and
Speaker 2: it's a great movie if no one out there has
Speaker 2: seen it yet. But I told you, if I could
Speaker 2: live in any era, I would want to go back
Speaker 2: and live live that life like in the sixties, and
Speaker 2: you said you would too. But as I was watching
Speaker 2: that movie, I was thinking, like, how many people left
Speaker 2: the Doors concert and became Zodiac victims Manson victims, like
Speaker 2: you know, the Laurel King bodygunt.
Speaker 4: The story is that the FBI actually pulled Jim Morrison
Speaker 4: in after the Manson are killing started happening, because the
Speaker 4: fuck up. I mean, yeah, we all know that Jim
Speaker 4: Morrison was just an actor playing this guy. But the
Speaker 4: official story in numerous accounts that I've went through they
Speaker 4: say that he was at least suspected of being connected
Speaker 4: to it somehow.
Speaker 2: Wow, and he's his dad in this fucking Tonkin and
Speaker 2: all that shit. Wouldn't surprise me that he could be
Speaker 2: a secret serial killer.
Speaker 4: He could have been doing a number of things. I
Speaker 4: think his role was to just be the guy that
Speaker 4: went out there to spit in the face of culture,
Speaker 4: and he realized that he was just up there on stage,
Speaker 4: you know, prostolytizing to a bunch of fucking people that
Speaker 4: were just slaves, as he put it. And I do
Speaker 4: think that the actor Jim Morrison playing the role of
Speaker 4: the Lizard King really did become jaded with that role
Speaker 4: and he probably begged to get out of it.
Speaker 2: They faked his death or yeah, no, even watching that movie,
Speaker 2: I think he's still alive or maybe he's died since.
Speaker 2: But he didn't die when they said he died. But like,
Speaker 2: would you still, knowing everything you know and like me
Speaker 2: covering this stuff and like us doing this show together,
Speaker 2: would you still choose to go back and live in
Speaker 2: the sixties?
Speaker 4: Well, you asked me this question a while ago on
Speaker 4: a Cosmic Peach episode.
Speaker 2: What episode was it?
Speaker 4: I don't even hurt and Courtney. He could have been
Speaker 4: the Courtney loved one. But you asked or I think
Speaker 4: I just said. You know a lot of people say
Speaker 4: if they had their time machine, fan see where they
Speaker 4: would go back to. And you know, I said, I
Speaker 4: wouldn't go watch the Pyramids be built. I would go
Speaker 4: watch the chaos ensuing in southern California in the sixties,
Speaker 4: and maybe even like, you know, just be able to
Speaker 4: jet back and forth between the Bay Area and la
Speaker 4: like right in the boiling point of the Laurel Canyon's syop.
Speaker 2: Like if you could go you if let's say the
Speaker 2: time machine, you go back, you can go anywhere you want,
Speaker 2: but you have to stay there for ten years. So
Speaker 2: from nineteen sixty to nineteen seventy you have to live
Speaker 2: ten years in that decade.
Speaker 4: I'd say sixty five to seventy five.
Speaker 2: Sixty five to seventy five, you would still do it.
Speaker 4: I mean, if I get a free trip.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what if you end up a fucking TONIU fucking
Speaker 2: murder victim, Like it doesn't scare you. All the shit
Speaker 2: that they were pulling.
Speaker 4: Well, the question is a hypothetical, like which era of
Speaker 4: history really like excites you? And makes you want to
Speaker 4: learn more. And it to me, it would be this era.
Speaker 2: I mean me too.
Speaker 4: I mean it's people who say they want to go
Speaker 4: back and watch the pyramids be built have a way
Speaker 4: fucking higher risk of being killed by ingefulum giants that
Speaker 4: could get squashed by goddamn nothingness, little ginger giants.
Speaker 2: So you wouldn't be interested in like seeing the twenties
Speaker 2: or like no swing kids.
Speaker 4: No, no, I want to say eighties. I want to
Speaker 4: see where eighties were, Like you know.
Speaker 2: Oh wait, honey, you were alive, weren't you.
Speaker 4: Well, I was a little kid in the eighties, but yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't remember, Duran, Duran.
Speaker 2: I've always kind of been fascinated with the eighties just
Speaker 2: because I love eighties.
Speaker 4: I mean, the eighties is a cool era in its
Speaker 4: own way, but it's breakfast club. It's got nothing on
Speaker 4: the sixties and no seventies.
Speaker 2: Not really no, but no. Okay. So the years covered
Speaker 2: by the occult blood bath in Northern California nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: seven through nineteen seventy three correspond precisely to the years
Speaker 2: that the Phoenix program in Vietnam was in full operation,
Speaker 2: although similar programs under different names existed prior to nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty seven, but in September nineteen seventy three, the head
Speaker 2: of the Phoenix operation, William Colby, no relation, We're actually
Speaker 2: Couzin was appointed as the new director of the Central
Speaker 2: Intelligence Agency and Phoenix had officially come home. Are these
Speaker 2: serial killers in extension of the Phoenix program via William Colby?
Speaker 4: Well, we just talked about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I mean I think, like.
Speaker 4: See, that's the risk prior too, of us not knowing.
Speaker 4: I don't know what you're going to be writing about.
Speaker 4: But we talked about this extensively in the first.
Speaker 2: But it said prior to nineteen sixty seven, when did
Speaker 2: the Manson go down? I thought it was before seventy.
Speaker 4: Three, Yeah, but in seventy three is when Colby was
Speaker 4: named the director of the CIA. Sixty seven through seventy three.
Speaker 2: Was the phoenis the murder years?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: But you know, honest to god, I did not know
Speaker 2: that he became the director of this yeason. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: So I thought he was like he was the director
Speaker 2: at Tippity topity motherfucker in Vietnam, But I didn't know
Speaker 2: he came home and became the director.
Speaker 4: Now, if I don't ye, I don't know if this
Speaker 4: is exactly correct. I'm just going off of memory of
Speaker 4: other stuff I've looked into, But I'm pretty fucking sure
Speaker 4: that the Church committee that brought forth Operation Mockingbird, MK
Speaker 4: Ultra numerous other things that put it right in the limelight,
Speaker 4: and it was Frank Church. I think he was a
Speaker 4: fucking senator from Idaho or some shit. He was the
Speaker 4: one that was putting all these guys up on the
Speaker 4: fucking stand. And that's where William Colby ended up stepping down.
Speaker 4: And then a few years later it's George H. W.
Speaker 4: Bush in the head of CIA. But Colby was like
Speaker 4: really tarnished by all of the disclosure of these what
Speaker 4: we're supposed to be super super secret operations and programs,
Speaker 4: and you know, he didn't resurface again in anything noteworthy
Speaker 4: in my opinion. I mean, I don't know the guy's
Speaker 4: life thoroughly, but when the Franklin scandal happened, because the
Speaker 4: camp reached out to him to ask about, like, what
Speaker 4: do I do William He.
Speaker 2: Was in the Conspiracy of Silence, wasn't he?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think so. He interviewed him
Speaker 4: and then Colby ends up dead in a row boat
Speaker 4: in a fucking lake where his fucking dinner is still
Speaker 4: on the table. Then he left candles burning and shit.
Speaker 3: William Colby has been missing since April twenty seventh. His
Speaker 3: canoe was found washed up on the banks of the
Speaker 3: Waikamako River April twenty eight.
Speaker 4: My father was a soldier. He jumped out of airplanes.
Speaker 4: He lived to serve.
Speaker 9: People who turned to me and say, you know your dad.
Speaker 7: Was a murderer.
Speaker 4: My immediate reaction used to be, you don't know what
Speaker 4: you're talking about. And then I'd found myself thinking was he.
Speaker 7: Who was he? Really?
Speaker 6: I am against assassination. I think it's counterproductive, and I
Speaker 6: have issued directives against him.
Speaker 5: By the time I got there in nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 5: it felt much more like an assassination from him.
Speaker 10: Current investigations could uncover several assassinations of which the CIA
Speaker 10: was involved.
Speaker 5: Yes, there were abuses, there was no doubt about it.
Speaker 7: They really got out of hand at.
Speaker 10: One person to make the determination that you do not
Speaker 10: trust four hundred and thirty five members, each of whom
Speaker 10: won an open election in ostensibly a democratic society.
Speaker 2: I would say to you, sir, you.
Speaker 6: Don't have the right to play god.
Speaker 11: How many files of this character you maintain on other
Speaker 11: members of Congress?
Speaker 7: Do you know what documents he destroyed?
Speaker 6: Don't you think that's an exceedingly loose way to run
Speaker 6: an agency, particularly the CIA.
Speaker 12: The CIA and its director was always caught between doing
Speaker 12: the wish of the president and the law, and when
Speaker 12: the president said do this, do that, the law got
Speaker 12: set aside.
Speaker 4: Normally, he was really a tortured soul.
Speaker 11: The family wasn't always let into this world of his.
Speaker 4: He never had to really tell me anything.
Speaker 9: My father lived in a world of secrets, always watching, listening,
Speaker 9: his eye on the door. By the time I turned thirty,
Speaker 9: I came to understand the man that nobody knew.
Speaker 4: And I talked to this guy named Phil'szarro, who's like
Speaker 4: an encyclopedia knowledge, and he was just like, yeah, this
Speaker 4: guy was known for being meticulous and he ends up
Speaker 4: during a rainstorm just taking an impromptu rowboat trip that
Speaker 4: was so important that he just left.
Speaker 2: Everything, left his dinner on the table.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And you know, you know, you never know when a
Speaker 4: guy who was involved with such things that you can
Speaker 4: just I mean, you could rattle off a million reasons
Speaker 4: why William Colby might have been a problem that needed
Speaker 4: to be dealt with, especially if he was starting to
Speaker 4: talk to like the.
Speaker 2: Camp well he must stay got frank olsend.
Speaker 4: Well, it was definitely a hit, but the reasons why,
Speaker 4: it's like, why DIDJFK get shot? Take your pick?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's like you don't know for sure, but
Speaker 2: you know it wasn't just him.
Speaker 4: Well, the timing of it seemed to be like he
Speaker 4: kind of just went away and then when the Franklin
Speaker 4: cover up went underway, he either helped shift the narrative
Speaker 4: or he actually had a fucking conscience and thought, you know,
Speaker 4: I can help bring some of this ship to an end,
Speaker 4: and it brought him to an end. This is Julia's
Speaker 4: idea of comedy.
Speaker 2: Every buddy he deserved whatever he got.
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't say he didn't, but I also sure did.
Speaker 4: But why did he die? Did he die because he
Speaker 4: finally starts speaking out?
Speaker 2: He died because his fucking wife kept making the same
Speaker 2: two Caza rolled over.
Speaker 4: To He's like, you know what, fucking tunic casserole again,
Speaker 4: I'm going I'm going on a rowboat journey find myself.
Speaker 2: So they just found his dead body in the rowboat.
Speaker 2: There was no sign of a struggle, no sign of
Speaker 2: like lethal injection, stabbing, chooting.
Speaker 4: You know, they got fucking guns in the CIA, and
Speaker 4: just give you a heart attack. It actually held him
Speaker 4: up during the goddamn Church committee, so.
Speaker 2: Well, shit, fucking I think he got what was coming
Speaker 2: to his ass.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's oftentimes these guys don't die for the
Speaker 4: reason they should. They die because they grew a conscience
Speaker 4: like could have been what happened here, although all indicators
Speaker 4: are like, yeah, he disappeared from the limelight, and then
Speaker 4: David de Camp is that his name?
Speaker 2: David John de Camp?
Speaker 4: John DeCamp ended up bringing him back into the attention
Speaker 4: of the elite. I mean, who knows? These things are
Speaker 4: so layered, Like just because of the Camp and Colby,
Speaker 4: I've started to question, like what we really know about
Speaker 4: the Franklin cover up? Things have been uncovered, but maybe
Speaker 4: much darker was fucking pushed under the rug because these
Speaker 4: two were propagandists.
Speaker 2: Yes they were. Do you think what we know, like
Speaker 2: what I covered about the Franklin like that's all pretty accurate, right, I.
Speaker 4: Mean I think that we know the tip of the
Speaker 4: iceberg with Franklin because people like Hunter S. Thompson start
Speaker 4: coming up when you look really into the finer print
Speaker 4: and you look at a lot of Paul Bannazi's testimony,
Speaker 4: which how fucking much can we take at face value
Speaker 4: that comes from that guy.
Speaker 2: Oh, you don't like Paul Banazi.
Speaker 4: Well, I've heard you talk about him, and you point
Speaker 4: out certain things like he was a recruit for other victims.
Speaker 4: He was, he had a double digit number of personalities.
Speaker 4: He himself went through the most gruesome things imaginable. And
Speaker 4: then you get the other guy. I don't remember his name,
Speaker 4: but they were the ones that I.
Speaker 2: Think his name was like Tyler.
Speaker 4: Maybe could something like that. Yeah, But him and Alicia,
Speaker 4: the one who ended up going to prison for perjury
Speaker 4: and had to like spend an extensive amount of time
Speaker 4: in solitary confinement. You get people like that. The Nazi
Speaker 4: was relatively untoped. The one kid lost his brother, yeah,
Speaker 4: and then.
Speaker 2: He was relatively untouched.
Speaker 4: I mean as soon as that one kid's brother, I
Speaker 4: wish we knew his name, not Paul Benazi. The other
Speaker 4: guy in.
Speaker 2: Conspiracy of Silence Tyler, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 4: But he had to see his own brother get killed.
Speaker 4: And then knew that if he recanted his testimony again
Speaker 4: that him and his mother could get killed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he had a little sister too.
Speaker 4: We can't take at face value somebody like Paul the
Speaker 4: Nazi's testimony.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, I would like to believe some of
Speaker 2: it is true, though, Oh I'm sure a lot of
Speaker 2: it's true, just because you know well.
Speaker 4: And you also get another spin on this, which was,
Speaker 4: oh man, what's the kid the milk carton kids? So
Speaker 4: you take Johnny Gosh and you take his mother, and
Speaker 4: you have Paul be Nazi saying he recruited him. And
Speaker 4: then you have his mother, who went fucking ape shit
Speaker 4: like anybody who lost a kid, and she's saying that
Speaker 4: Johnny Gosh came back when he was in his mid
Speaker 4: twenties and he fucking spoke to her and he said
Speaker 4: that he was hiding out.
Speaker 2: That he had been recruited.
Speaker 4: And I mean, I don't want to just throw out
Speaker 4: what these people are saying, because they've been traumatized like
Speaker 4: beyond no end in the Nazi's case and then with
Speaker 4: Gosh' hiss mom. But still you have to take it
Speaker 4: with the grain of salt, because if this stuff isn't
Speaker 4: meant to see the light of day.
Speaker 10: It won't see Oswald. It is an amazing revelation in
Speaker 10: a bizarre story that all began back in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 10: That's when twelve year old paper boy Johnny Gosh disappeared.
Speaker 10: He was on his paper route in Western Whine at
Speaker 10: the time, and now his mother, who has never given
Speaker 10: up hope, says he's alive and well and became a
Speaker 10: visitor nearly two years ago.
Speaker 13: Chenney, it's todd Megel talked with missus Gosh today.
Speaker 1: She told him why she waited two years to speak
Speaker 1: out about Johnny's visits.
Speaker 5: I did see Johnny in March of nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 5: I he can hear very late at night.
Speaker 1: Mareen Gosh, says her missing son, Johnny, knocked on her
Speaker 1: apartment door without any warning almost two years ago. Now
Speaker 1: she's ready to tell her story.
Speaker 5: He's angry, he's bitter. He's full grown, but still has
Speaker 5: had not the benefit of a college education, job skills,
Speaker 5: any of that to get along in life with. So
Speaker 5: it made me very sad.
Speaker 1: But why wait two years to reveal this stunning news. Well,
Speaker 1: Gosh was in Omaha on Friday, testifying in the civil
Speaker 1: trial of a man named Paul Banasi. For years, he's
Speaker 1: told the Gosh family he knows what happened to Johnny Gosh.
Speaker 1: Now Banasi is suing an Omaha businessman who Banasi says
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted him as a child. Naren Gosh was on
Speaker 1: the stand confirming Banashi's story when the bombshell dropped.
Speaker 5: The attorney asked me if I had had any personal
Speaker 5: contact or in fact had seen or talked to my son.
Speaker 5: And I was under oath, so I had to answer.
Speaker 1: So, what's happened to Johnny Gosh? After all these years?
Speaker 1: His mother says, he spent about an hour in her
Speaker 1: home describing his life. He's twenty eight years old now.
Speaker 5: He told me how he was kidnapped. At first, he
Speaker 5: was so drug that he didn't know where he was at.
Speaker 5: But he could then relate some of the names of
Speaker 5: the people that were around him that he was able
Speaker 5: to latch onto names. He told me how they traveled
Speaker 5: all over the country. They were used for pornography, prostitution,
Speaker 5: compromising businessmen and politicians sexually. These kids were used in
Speaker 5: a royal fashion like none of us would ever dream of.
Speaker 1: So what does law enforcement think well. Pole County Attorney
Speaker 1: John Sarcone says, if Missus Dax believes the story, then
Speaker 1: he's not about to say anything different. But Westermoin Police
Speaker 1: Captain Bob Rushing tells the Associated Press that Missus Gosh
Speaker 1: has told similar stories before, only to recamp them later.
Speaker 5: I know that there are people in this town that
Speaker 5: don't believe it. They don't want to believe it, so
Speaker 5: they say nar In Gosh is nuts.
Speaker 4: I don't care.
Speaker 5: I simply don't care. My first responsibility is to myself
Speaker 5: because I'm the only one he has left.
Speaker 4: And Yeah, they had this documentary, Conspiracy of Silence that
Speaker 4: De Camp made, and all of a sudden, you're hearing
Speaker 4: there's this documentary floating around that was supposed to be
Speaker 4: on the Discovery Channel or something. They pulled it at
Speaker 4: the last minute, But then years later you can get
Speaker 4: into YouTube search. So I'm just saying, the stuff that
Speaker 4: we're allowed to focus on with the Franklin scandal is
Speaker 4: probably just so minimal compared to the stuff we'll never know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I even think in the Conspiracy of Silence
Speaker 2: it kind of even downplayed the abuse that these kids
Speaker 2: were going through. It was like it almost made it
Speaker 2: look like it was it was older teenager kids or
Speaker 2: like you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I put a lot of emphasis on the teen
Speaker 4: boys that had to go to the White House for
Speaker 4: this after our parties when Reagan, but.
Speaker 2: They didn't mention like Johnny Ort Johnny Gosh. Paul Banasi
Speaker 2: said in his testimony that it was like little kids too,
Speaker 2: And it wasn't just like this teeny.
Speaker 4: They were getting boys from Boystown, which do you have
Speaker 4: a lot of young kids who are orphaned for whatever
Speaker 4: reason end up in places like these, So yeah, it
Speaker 4: wasn't just teenage kids.
Speaker 2: And also when Paul Banassi was talking about Bohemia Grove
Speaker 2: and Hunter S. Thompson and they were talking about that
Speaker 2: one little boy that they ran train on and then
Speaker 2: had to and then ended up killing him, and like
Speaker 2: that he said, and Johnny Gosh was little too, like this,
Speaker 2: like even when they did this stuff about Epstein, it
Speaker 2: was like teenage girls thirteen and fourteen years old. It's like, nah,
Speaker 2: it wasn't just teenage girls like they always do that,
Speaker 2: like it's a lesser degree of horror if they can
Speaker 2: make it like it was like fourteen year olds right,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? So I don't know, they
Speaker 2: always tell like half the fucking story on that shit. Anyways. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But to get back to what we were talking about,
Speaker 2: I did want to say another.
Speaker 4: Anytime you asked me about the Franklin scandal and shit
Speaker 4: like that, it's going to be a tangent.
Speaker 2: Well it's a good tangent because, as I was saying,
Speaker 2: like the way that they portray stuff isn't usually how
Speaker 2: it actually is. And with the Manson family, they did
Speaker 2: not operate as the hippie cult that they have been
Speaker 2: portrayed as being. Their base of operations was more of
Speaker 2: a pairamilitary compound than it was a commune, complete with
Speaker 2: guard shacks at lookout points, telescopes, walkie talkies, military field telephones,
Speaker 2: and doom buggies equipped with fucking machine gun mounts. So
Speaker 2: wasn't like flower power.
Speaker 4: Oh that was the narrative that was dying to be pushed.
Speaker 4: Like even if you watch Once upon a.
Speaker 2: Time, I always just gonna say that, like.
Speaker 4: They don't show all this advanced military like guard posts
Speaker 4: and stuff like that. But they had a system like
Speaker 4: a stranger arrives, go get texts, check them out.
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 13: Ranch.
Speaker 4: There was a city, yeah, and that's where they were.
Speaker 4: There was a few compounds that they had, but the
Speaker 4: main base of operations were led to believe was spawn ranch.
Speaker 4: And I always thought it was more militant, just in
Speaker 4: my research than what the you know, main dream spin.
Speaker 2: On the whole thing was, yeah, because they had flowers
Speaker 2: in their hair and they had like this whole we're family.
Speaker 2: We're a family, and we all have hairy pussy's and
Speaker 2: fucking don't shave our pits and we fucking murder with
Speaker 2: each other. And we're like, that's that's how they made
Speaker 2: it look.
Speaker 4: All this one, all this one, all one remember in
Speaker 4: them in the yeah where well, as long as we
Speaker 4: are to gather, it's that in this in the movie
Speaker 4: Once upon a Time in Hollywood, they're going dumpster diving,
Speaker 4: skipping down the street barefoot, singing that. That is literally
Speaker 4: what those women that showed up. I think it was
Speaker 4: the ones that hadn't been interested, but it could have
Speaker 4: been the ones that were standing trial. But they did
Speaker 4: that in the hallway going into the courtroom.
Speaker 11: Charles Manson thirty six, chose a house at random, tied
Speaker 11: up the family at gunpoint, then ordered his followers to
Speaker 11: go inside and commit ritual slaughter.
Speaker 2: They shaved their heads and ship too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they did a bunch of stuff, but initially they
Speaker 4: did that song that's in the Once Upon a Time
Speaker 4: in Hollywood, which is I thought it was kind of
Speaker 4: cool that Tuarantinea incorporated that.
Speaker 2: But he also said if you knew what he knew now,
Speaker 2: he would have wrote a different movie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, when he was on Rogan, and Rogan was really
Speaker 4: big on Chaos at that point, even though he had
Speaker 4: the guy on and he hadn't finished his book, but uh,
Speaker 4: it was Yeah. Rogan asked him, have you read Chaos?
Speaker 4: And he said, yeah, I finished reading it after I
Speaker 4: already shot the movie. And if I had read that book,
Speaker 4: I would have made an entirely different movie.
Speaker 2: What do you think you would have done?
Speaker 4: I don't know if he It's just kind of like
Speaker 4: when I was watching The Doors the other night. When
Speaker 4: we were watching it, it was just I was just thinking,
Speaker 4: how cool would it be if some filmmaker actually told
Speaker 4: the real story, like a young Jim Morrison being told
Speaker 4: by his dad, You're not going to have the same
Speaker 4: life as other people. We have to, like, we have
Speaker 4: a mission.
Speaker 2: We're doing all in his military garb.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then he then he like practices singing and
Speaker 4: he yea, he has a script and then they set
Speaker 4: him loose in La Rocne. That would be a good movie.
Speaker 2: That would be a great movie.
Speaker 4: And just like, what movie could Tarantino have made if
Speaker 4: he took Tom O'Neill's research and showed Manson being a
Speaker 4: fucking Cia asset.
Speaker 2: We should write that movie.
Speaker 4: I'd rather write the Doors one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that would be a better one actually, because
Speaker 2: the Manson thing is so like it's at this point,
Speaker 2: I think it's like hard to get people re excited
Speaker 2: about it because it's been talked about so much. I
Speaker 2: don't know, it's.
Speaker 4: Well, And that's what Tom O'Neill to beat the dead
Speaker 4: horse of fucking chaos. It's it was a book that
Speaker 4: was fresh, and it kind of came out at a
Speaker 4: time when the Manson hysteria had leveled out for a
Speaker 4: few years, and it was this whole other take that
Speaker 4: a lot of people had already known about all these
Speaker 4: dots out there, but they got connected in like a
Speaker 4: twenty year period of extensive research. So anything can be
Speaker 4: done that way. But yeah, it's a topic that, man,
Speaker 4: you would have to just dive into it and dedicate
Speaker 4: your life to it for a couple decades to get
Speaker 4: anywhere fresh.
Speaker 2: Well for sure. And actually, the next point I was
Speaker 2: going to make is, though no serial killer slash mass
Speaker 2: murderer in history has likely achieved the level of notoriety
Speaker 2: or generated the volume of media coverage that Charles Manson has,
Speaker 2: many of the most compelling facts of the Manson case
Speaker 2: remain largely unknown to the public. For a reason. Of
Speaker 2: particular significance, perhaps, are the myriad levels on which the
Speaker 2: killers and the victims were connected. One of those connections
Speaker 2: was provided by none other than Anton Levy. At least
Speaker 2: one of Charlie's girls, known locally as the Witch of Mendocino,
Speaker 2: was recruited from LaVey's Church of Satan. Susan sexy Sadie
Speaker 2: Atkins was one of many dancers in LaVey's stable, collectively
Speaker 2: known as the Topless Witch's review. Atkins later credited LaVey
Speaker 2: with starting her down the road to murder. Family member
Speaker 2: Bobby Bosela, who was a roommate and by some accounts,
Speaker 2: a lover of Child's star turned underground filmmaker Kenneth Anger,
Speaker 2: was also recruited from the Church of Satan. What do
Speaker 2: you think about.
Speaker 4: That, about the LaVey connections. Yeah, well, I mean it's
Speaker 4: kind of well known that LaVey was an intelligence asset,
Speaker 4: and you know, I'm not doubting he was a practitioner.
Speaker 4: He wrote the Satanic Bible.
Speaker 2: I mean, he might have been well I was gonna say,
Speaker 2: you might have been doing a little bit of it,
Speaker 2: but he must have been doing quite a bit of it,
Speaker 2: so well, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, this was the televised version of the
Speaker 4: Church of Satan. You had people like Michael Aquino and
Speaker 4: Levey's daughter going up. I don't funk. Wasn't Mario Povich
Speaker 4: some shit? And they're like it wasn't like they were
Speaker 4: mocking them or promoting them. It was almost like they
Speaker 4: were just putting it out there and it would lead
Speaker 4: to things such as the Satanic Panic and the West
Speaker 4: Memphis three.
Speaker 2: Well, what do you think of Kenneth Inger, Well, Kenneth
Speaker 2: Inger was balls deep.
Speaker 4: In a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: Like, one thing that I always think of is just
Speaker 4: like the real deal. Well, think of that, and I
Speaker 4: know you know about this and a lot of listeners
Speaker 4: probably do. But it's just a weird angle on it.
Speaker 4: How the little kid of oh Man, I always forget
Speaker 4: his name. Now he had the Vito Pelkis, he had
Speaker 4: the freaks and their little kid, well god, yeah, he
Speaker 4: you know, died mysteriously somehow when they were all partying
Speaker 4: and they went out later that night and partied the
Speaker 4: night he died. And this was like a fucking three year.
Speaker 2: Old kid, and it was all like there was like
Speaker 2: many many stories on what happened, like nobody had the
Speaker 2: same story of what really happened to him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and at the time, he was being primed to
Speaker 4: be in one of Kenneth Inger's films. Yeah, and then
Speaker 4: remember which one it was Lucifer Rising person.
Speaker 2: But then he ended up casting Bobby Boselet.
Speaker 4: Exactly the point I was going to make. Yeah, yeah, no, no,
Speaker 4: that's fine. I was just I mean, you know exactly
Speaker 4: where this is going. And these weird connections leve Kenneth Anger.
Speaker 2: And Manson family members.
Speaker 4: Are they really weird connections or are they just the dots?
Speaker 7: You know?
Speaker 2: Because if you want to take it one step further,
Speaker 2: since we're talking about Kenneth Anger and the Manson family
Speaker 2: members like Bobby Bosley. Now we're including Anton Levey into
Speaker 2: the mix. Fucking Vito Palykus was like family members in
Speaker 2: law of the Rothschilds or something or the Rockefellers or
Speaker 2: was it the Rothchilds, the Rothchilds.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was cousin in law's something with was distant,
Speaker 4: but it was still close enough that it was suspect.
Speaker 4: I remember McGowan brought it up in the Laurel Canyon book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like in the first chapter in laws with the Rothschilds.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because if you don't know, Vito Pelkis was the
Speaker 4: one who designed like the go Go dancer type thing. Yeah,
Speaker 4: he had You had the Birds and other such bands
Speaker 4: that were early Laurel Canyon acts that didn't know how
Speaker 4: to play their instruments, and they had the Wrecking Crew
Speaker 4: in the recording studio. But when they play live shows,
Speaker 4: no one went really to watch the music they want,
Speaker 4: and they went to watch this hippie stcene emerging with
Speaker 4: the freaks. And this was Vito Paalikus and his kids.
Speaker 4: In an Kenneth Anger movie dies mysteriously he's replaced by
Speaker 4: Bobby Busselet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's a lot and actually something that I
Speaker 2: want to touch on. You inspired me in the last
Speaker 2: episode because you were talking about it, and so I
Speaker 2: dug into it a little further. But interestingly, Levey had
Speaker 2: connections to the victims as well. He had formed a
Speaker 2: close association with Roman Polanski shortly before the murders, when
Speaker 2: he served as the technical consultant for Polanski on the
Speaker 2: film Rosemary's Baby, in which he also made a cameo
Speaker 2: appearance as who else Satan?
Speaker 4: The role of a lifetime for ol Anton.
Speaker 2: He probably creamed his pants.
Speaker 4: It's like, it's like what Dave Grill does now. He
Speaker 4: loves playing the devil. Any fucking chance he gets.
Speaker 2: It does make him come every time.
Speaker 4: Fucking Dave.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he gets a stiff one, but so on the
Speaker 2: set of an earlier film, Tait herself had reportedly been
Speaker 2: initiated into witchcraft by Alexander Saunders, who was tight with Levey.
Speaker 2: Sammy Davis Junior, who was introduced to the Church of
Speaker 2: Satan by Manson. Victim j se Bring has said of
Speaker 2: the victims who were killed at Tate's Celio Drive residents, quote,
Speaker 2: everyone there had at one time or another been into Satanism.
Speaker 4: Everyone there had it one time or another.
Speaker 2: Baby, you have to say, been into Satanism.
Speaker 4: The joke played itself out halfway through the sentence, y'all. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Some newspaper reports at the time of the slains, denounced
Speaker 2: as sensationalism, were rife with reports that the Polanskis were
Speaker 2: Satanists who hosted drug and sex orgies.
Speaker 4: Well, it's all verifiable. That's not sensationalization. No, I know
Speaker 4: it is, But it's just funny that like that, the
Speaker 4: whole thing was just kind of swept under the rug.
Speaker 4: He didn't need to know that this wasn't just random
Speaker 4: be scared.
Speaker 2: They spent zero time looking into Roman Polanski.
Speaker 4: Well they didn't. They actually did look into him, and
Speaker 4: they had confiscated we talked about in last episode some
Speaker 4: of these film reels.
Speaker 2: Well that's kind of what I dug into trying to
Speaker 2: find stuff about, because just days before the murders, a
Speaker 2: drug dealer was reportedly filmed to be whipped at the
Speaker 2: house in an snm ritual, and various celebrities were said
Speaker 2: to have been in attendance for this, and actor Dennis
Speaker 2: Hopper spoke in interviews of sadistic movies filmed at the
Speaker 2: house that featured some of Hollywood's biggest names, And as
Speaker 2: you were saying in the last episode, they had one
Speaker 2: of a bunch of people running train on fucking Sharon.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and only suppose they only have a few select
Speaker 4: cops saw this and they just kinda to save face
Speaker 4: for the Tate family. They didn't feel like it needed
Speaker 4: to be looked at that closely.
Speaker 2: But if it was someone other than Roman Polanski, would
Speaker 2: it not have been looked at? It's always the husband
Speaker 2: who's to say that Roman set this shit up.
Speaker 4: He was out of the country, so he has a
Speaker 4: solid alibi.
Speaker 2: That's what you do when you're in.
Speaker 4: Fucking There's very high likelihood that the ship he was
Speaker 4: into led to this whole thing.
Speaker 2: But no, you remember, like in our Kurt and Courtney episode, like,
Speaker 2: if you're gonna hire somebody to do this, you got
Speaker 2: to get the fuck out of town when the hit
Speaker 2: goes down, And so you haven't.
Speaker 4: He at least knew it was going to take place. Yeah,
Speaker 4: covered his own ass.
Speaker 2: The fact that the town makes it more look like him.
Speaker 4: Another likelihood is that he knew his life was in
Speaker 4: danger because he had done something to piss off the
Speaker 4: higher ups, and he was, you know, I'm out of town,
Speaker 4: I'm safe, maybe not knowing that they were just going
Speaker 4: to turn it on everybody at his house, including his
Speaker 4: wife and his unborn child. I'm not trying to like
Speaker 4: say that Polansky was innocent and didn't know the murders
Speaker 4: were going to happen, But it could have been the
Speaker 4: other way too.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Usually when somebody dies, especially a pregnant woman,
Speaker 2: look at the fucking it's always a husband. What's up
Speaker 2: a ship?
Speaker 5: That?
Speaker 2: Just do you stay current on true crime?
Speaker 4: Are you talking about Scott Peterson?
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson for sure, But the guy who put his
Speaker 2: wife and his kids in the oil silo because he
Speaker 2: found out she was pregnant mos No when Mormons. His
Speaker 2: name was Chris something.
Speaker 4: Oh damn, yeah, yeah, Chris, I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: And he put his wife and his kids with the
Speaker 2: oil silo. It was something. It was something. It was
Speaker 2: on Netflix and everybody because she was found out she
Speaker 2: was pregnant and he wanted to go fuck his little
Speaker 2: secretary or whoever she was, and then he ended up.
Speaker 4: Guy, if you want to fuck your secretary, you don't
Speaker 4: have to kill your wife first, it's not the way
Speaker 4: it has to work.
Speaker 2: No, it's it's really not. There's so many other ways.
Speaker 4: I'm not entirely sure. Just as a side note, that
Speaker 4: Scott Peterson's guilty. What I've seen some compelling evidence?
Speaker 2: Can you share it with the class?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 4: Why it's not fresh on mine't mind enough? But I
Speaker 4: remember listening.
Speaker 2: To You're crazy.
Speaker 4: No I'm not crazy because a lot of these things
Speaker 4: when you automatically, when you're automatically just sold the narrative,
Speaker 4: especially when it's in the nice, tightly knit package of
Speaker 4: a true crime documentary, you're gonna be the narrative has
Speaker 4: already been shifted for you. Who do they say did it?
Speaker 4: I don't even remember. I'm just saying what I did, believe,
Speaker 4: just because everybody thought he was guilty.
Speaker 2: He fucking was here.
Speaker 4: We'll talk about this later, all right.
Speaker 2: But sue Anyways, were Romanson killings in reality just part
Speaker 2: of what should be called the Great Acid qu of
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine? Were they the result of an operation aimed, at,
Speaker 2: among other things, killing off some competitors, intimidating others, and
Speaker 2: consolidating control of the hallucinogenic drug market. The possibility clearly exists,
Speaker 2: because as I always say, a lot of these murders
Speaker 2: could just be uh taken out the competition, you know,
Speaker 2: they mix like some intentional murders with some random ones. So,
Speaker 2: like I said in the last episode, but I don't
Speaker 2: know they were doing like all kinds of mind control
Speaker 2: shit on people. Because the police originally were drawn to
Speaker 2: the theory that the killings were drug related, other early
Speaker 2: theories were that the killings were occult inspired, or that
Speaker 2: the true motive could be found in what was called
Speaker 2: fame porn. Films and videos found at the Polanski homes
Speaker 2: suggested an elite Hollywood wife swapping alliance, and the folder
Speaker 2: for Kowski home also yielded a box of erotic photos
Speaker 2: of Hollywood's elite. What do you think about that?
Speaker 4: I'm not surprised by any of it when you look
Speaker 4: at how you know, the Hollywood people are, and I
Speaker 4: know very normal people in most regards who wive swap,
Speaker 4: So the fact that this is going on, I'm not
Speaker 4: surprised by it. But some of the like nature of
Speaker 4: the films that the police were said to have confiscated
Speaker 4: from the Landscare household, I would say went beyond.
Speaker 2: Mandingo.
Speaker 4: Yeah, not just your all and out fun polyamory, but
Speaker 4: like some dark shit mixed with some like blackmail type shit.
Speaker 2: Type.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And just like I don't know, I don't know a
Speaker 4: lot about.
Speaker 2: Like Rosemary's Baby butt in real life time.
Speaker 4: Well, I think that Polanski and his fascination with Rosemary's
Speaker 4: Baby and him making it into a movie didn't have
Speaker 4: a lot to do with just some like you know,
Speaker 4: this is something that people need to see in a movie.
Speaker 4: It was like his life mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And something else that we spoke about in the previous
Speaker 2: episode that you mentioned that we talked about was like
Speaker 2: why the Labyankas when the tapes were sensationalized and so
Speaker 2: to clarify the why of it, I found some more
Speaker 2: information and there were indications of the involvement of organized
Speaker 2: crime in the killings. Leno LaBianca had known underworld connections,
Speaker 2: to whom he reportedly owed nearly two hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: thousand dollars in gambling debts at the time of the murders.
Speaker 2: The Labyanca home was known to have its phone lines
Speaker 2: tapped Marilyn Monroe style as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I do just want to back up and say,
Speaker 4: like the LaBianca murders. All the point I was making
Speaker 4: in the last episode was the reason that they're so
Speaker 4: big is because they were ultimately just lumped in with
Speaker 4: the Tate killings. So it's the Labyanca slash Tate killings.
Speaker 4: It's not the Tait for Kowski Folder killings. It's Tate
Speaker 4: at this household the Lobbyancas. And they took place very
Speaker 4: close and as far as time goes.
Speaker 2: But they weren't like famous or anything, So it was like,
Speaker 2: why the lock.
Speaker 4: The LaBianca shit, Like, yeah, there was a cult, rituals
Speaker 4: and symbolism apparently going on there, but these people weren't anybody.
Speaker 2: But apparently this was one of the ones that I
Speaker 2: keep mentioning is like a hit job.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it looks very much like it could have
Speaker 4: been that.
Speaker 2: They mixed this one in with the Tate one. So
Speaker 2: you don't really understand what's going on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so no one's at the end of the day
Speaker 4: new Sharon Tate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but nobody knew Leno LaBianca had two hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars in gambling debts owed to these underworld
Speaker 2: fucking you know what I mean. So It's like they
Speaker 2: grouped this one in with like the famous people, but
Speaker 2: really they were both kind of purposeful. Yeah. I could
Speaker 2: also add here that the fucking Lobbyonca House was once
Speaker 2: owned by Walt Disney. And fun fact, just in case
Speaker 2: you didn't know, Walt Disney was a direct descendant on
Speaker 2: his mother's side of George Burrow's reportedly the Grand Wizard
Speaker 2: of the Witches executed in Salem in sixteen ninety two,
Speaker 2: But that's another episode. Walt Disney owned the Labbyanca home.
Speaker 2: Was it in Laurel Canyon? Lobyanca's were in Laurel Canyon,
Speaker 2: I mean or adjacent, Yeah, okay, And so Walt Disney
Speaker 2: was hanging out with like all the weird Germans that
Speaker 2: were involved in NASA, right, So was Stanley Kubrick. Stanley
Speaker 2: Kubrick was also connected with Jack Nicholson, who was also
Speaker 2: Laurel Canyon.
Speaker 4: Well, who also they had done Chinatown Roman Polanski's movie
Speaker 4: after all of this went down, and Jack Nicholson was
Speaker 4: tight with Polanski and it's his home where Polanski sexually
Speaker 4: assaulted the thirteen year old girl. And you know, people
Speaker 4: like Robert de Niro helped the legal fees with Polansky
Speaker 4: on that statutory rape charge. He ended up fleeing the country,
Speaker 4: of course, But yeah, Jack Nicholson certainly one of those
Speaker 4: guys who's at the center of a spider web.
Speaker 2: I mean, but isn't it crazy how you can go
Speaker 2: Stanley Kubrick, Jack Nicholson, Walt Disney, the weirdos at NASA
Speaker 2: and fucking link it back to the Lobiancas and the
Speaker 2: Tate murders. Fucking Charles Manson.
Speaker 4: Shit, man, you can link all of those guys too,
Speaker 4: not the the Tait and Glansky, but there's the Lookout Studio.
Speaker 2: Oh fuck where Walt Disney, Stanley Kuberg. They all had
Speaker 2: a top secret clearance.
Speaker 4: I don't know if Jack Nicholson's on that list, but.
Speaker 2: They all had top secret clearance to look Out Mountain Laboratory.
Speaker 4: And Julia and I just the other night watched writer
Speaker 4: Lee and Jay Weisner's new movie A Clockwork Shining, Shining,
Speaker 4: and go check that out. It's really good, really good,
Speaker 4: and it ties You know, you might not agree with
Speaker 4: every little theory in it, but he certainly didn't it tie.
Speaker 4: I agreed with a lot of it, and it ties
Speaker 4: together a lot of this stuff that Julia and I
Speaker 4: always talk about and really interesting ways.
Speaker 2: It really actually touched on a lot of our research.
Speaker 4: Well it's everybody's research at this point, but yeah, it's
Speaker 4: it's az.
Speaker 2: It's what we're known for. A lot like are looking into.
Speaker 2: But I mean, like I said, there were a few
Speaker 2: things that I disagreed with, maybe Colby didn't, But I
Speaker 2: like with any documentary, you take some of the information
Speaker 2: with a grain of salt and do your own research
Speaker 2: on it, because if you're gonna sit and watch a documentary,
Speaker 2: you can't just like be nodding your head the whole time.
Speaker 2: You actually need to look into the stuff that's being
Speaker 2: presented to you.
Speaker 4: Well, and there was also information that I hadn't heard before,
Speaker 4: same same I would say, just check it out and
Speaker 4: come to your own conclusions about it. Three time you
Speaker 4: see worth watching on Amazon Prime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, every time you watch a documentary you need to
Speaker 2: come to your own conclusions and do your own research.
Speaker 2: But it's definitely worth watching. I enjoyed it. I've watched
Speaker 2: a lot of Jay Widener stuff though, with like the
Speaker 2: Fake moon Landing and Stanley Kubrick. The first two word
Speaker 2: just Jay Widner, I believe Yeah.
Speaker 4: Writer teamed up with him on their last movie about JFK,
Speaker 4: and now they're doing this one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was definitely worth watching. Regardless of how
Speaker 2: you may feel about Jay Wider and the whole guy
Speaker 2: a fucking weirdness, I still think he makes a lot
Speaker 2: of good points. Do you know about that? And like
Speaker 2: David Wilcox and all that bullshit. Yeah, So kind of
Speaker 2: like we were talking about earlier, and I've kind of
Speaker 2: established by giving the why as to the labyancas. Many
Speaker 2: people have the impression that these houses were chosen at random,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem to be the case. And he
Speaker 2: actually knew the owner of the Tate House, Rudy also
Speaker 2: something or other And as we were saying earlier, Terry Melcher,
Speaker 2: who along with Charlie was involved with the Processed Church,
Speaker 2: as was John Phillips, cast Elliott's bandmate and another associate
Speaker 2: of Manson. Charlie was familiar with the Lobbyanca home as well,
Speaker 2: as it was right next door to the home of
Speaker 2: Harold True, who had hosted LSD parties attended by Charlie
Speaker 2: and his followers before the murders. And another super bizarre
Speaker 2: fact about the take killings that has gone largely unreported
Speaker 2: is that the crime scene appeared to have been rearranged
Speaker 2: after the killers had left. An attempt appeared to have
Speaker 2: been made to pose the victim's bodies on the home's
Speaker 2: front porch, after which the corpses were reposed inside the house.
Speaker 2: Evidence of tampering with the crime scene included an unidentified
Speaker 2: bloody boot heel print found on the front porch of
Speaker 2: the house and a number of unidentified fingerprints on the premises.
Speaker 2: What do you think about that bootprint?
Speaker 4: Makes me think Zodiac?
Speaker 2: It was definitely the Zodiac who killed them. Case closed,
Speaker 2: everybody solved it.
Speaker 4: Everybody's Zodiac.
Speaker 2: Everybody's leaving their fucking boot prints everywhere.
Speaker 4: Well this, you know, this was also talked about extensively
Speaker 4: in Chaos, about the rearranging And yeah, it's almost like
Speaker 4: the killings happened in a fashion and then they whoever
Speaker 4: they is, went back to set it up to be
Speaker 4: found the way.
Speaker 2: It was so babe, do you know like if they
Speaker 2: rearranged the bodies like multiple times to like get the
Speaker 2: mass fucking hysteria going of, like they had to rearrange
Speaker 2: them in the gorious possible way, or yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Don't know about multiple times, but it seems like the
Speaker 4: killings took place as they did however that went down,
Speaker 4: and then shortly after the like the makeup crew or
Speaker 4: the set designers of this movie came in who knows to.
Speaker 2: Like get them the most amount of like.
Speaker 4: Well, shock and awe. If the people that did the
Speaker 4: killing were the ones who were sending the message, wouldn't
Speaker 4: they them themselves have just done it that way?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 2: Impose them and like.
Speaker 4: But and who's to say it wasn't like somebody unrelated
Speaker 4: to the killings. It was like we got to connect
Speaker 4: this with like this and this, and this is gonna
Speaker 4: be the thing to put the final nail in the
Speaker 4: coffin of the hippie movement.
Speaker 2: Well, when you google the Tate crime scene, the first
Speaker 2: picture that always pops up is sharing Tate with their
Speaker 2: big pregnant belly, like all bloody and laid out on
Speaker 2: the floor with their arms up and like it's to me,
Speaker 2: it's almost to like they they arranged the bodies to
Speaker 2: make them look even more. It's just gruesome and like bloody.
Speaker 4: And well, you know, there's accounts of the Phoenix program
Speaker 4: where murdering pregnant women and doing gruesome things was a
Speaker 4: big part of it.
Speaker 2: And there's one close up photo of her with like
Speaker 2: a thing around her neck and like it's just I
Speaker 2: don't know, babe, Like like with a lot of these shits,
Speaker 2: it's like they redid the bodies and shit to just
Speaker 2: be more theatrical and like gruesome and gory. And they
Speaker 2: spread a couple of them out over the lawn and.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it could have been the killers that did it,
Speaker 4: but the word like rearranged, it puts a certain picture
Speaker 4: in your head.
Speaker 2: And the unidentified fingerprints and stuff like who was in
Speaker 2: there besides who we know. But so Manson was ultimately
Speaker 2: arrested on charges unrelated to the murders on October twelfth,
Speaker 2: Alistair Crowley's birthday, following a raid on the family compound,
Speaker 2: and was only later charged in connection to the killings.
Speaker 2: But Charlie had previously been arrested or charged on forty
Speaker 2: or more occasions. One of those arrests in nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: seven was made by a narcotics team led by the
Speaker 2: LAPD's Frank Salerno. Salerno would later lead the task forces
Speaker 2: investigating both the Hillside Strangler murders and the night Stalker
Speaker 2: killings more CIA killers. So I think this guy is
Speaker 2: in on it too.
Speaker 4: I mean, he's certainly a player and all of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hillside Stranglers, Charles Manson, and night Stalker. That's a
Speaker 2: pretty good resume right there.
Speaker 4: His life would make a good movie.
Speaker 2: But as the mid nineteen seventies rolled around, the FBI's
Speaker 2: Behavioral Science Unit came into being, the science of criminal
Speaker 2: profiling was rest upon the American people, the term serial
Speaker 2: killer entered the national lexicon, and the mass murderer suddenly
Speaker 2: became the new American anti hero. What do you think
Speaker 2: about that?
Speaker 4: It makes me think of natural born killers me too, Like,
Speaker 4: I mean, they do the most satirical, extreme examples of it.
Speaker 4: But when Mickey and Mallory Knox in the middle of
Speaker 4: the movie get caught and it shows the hysterias surrounding them,
Speaker 4: you know, people are treating them like rock stars, and yeah,
Speaker 4: there's one kid who's like, I mean, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 4: I don't agree with mass Mourory. That shit's fucked up.
Speaker 4: But if I was a serial killer, it'd definitely be
Speaker 4: Mickey and Mallerie.
Speaker 2: So what about our favorite fictional serial killer of all time.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean you could take it into present day.
Speaker 4: Dexter literally is an anti hero.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he still a mass murderer. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: have such a fondness for him.
Speaker 4: Well, it's just a really cool theory. It's it's young Ian.
Speaker 4: It's also the fucking Batman story.
Speaker 2: And but do you think stuff like that makes people
Speaker 2: have like a fondness for serial killers in a way?
Speaker 4: Well, and that was always like a fear when you
Speaker 4: hear like Michael C. Hall and the makers of Dexter
Speaker 4: and interviews talking about like, yeah, this is a show
Speaker 4: where we've made a vigilante serial killer and we're not
Speaker 4: trying to say that you should be doing this.
Speaker 7: I mean I'm.
Speaker 2: Paraphrasing, but right, yeah, as far as we can, you'd
Speaker 2: be mad at him, like he's taking up the garbage, right.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think Dexter is a great example
Speaker 4: of like the actual.
Speaker 2: Because our justice system is fucked. I mean a lot
Speaker 2: of these people do walk, especially the ones that are
Speaker 2: fucking protect did. Like a lot of these like child
Speaker 2: rapists and shit, they do get out. I would like
Speaker 2: to have an actual Dexter running our host.
Speaker 4: I always said each corner of the country should have
Speaker 4: a dozen Dexters. Yeah, but you know that's neither here
Speaker 4: nor there.
Speaker 2: Like maybe we that is our form of justice is
Speaker 2: fuck you. Hope Dexter doesn't get a hold of your ass.
Speaker 4: This series is taking an interesting turn.
Speaker 2: Wow, So I don't know, I just I'm just saying.
Speaker 2: It's not because I love Dexter, but I do think
Speaker 2: a lot of these raping, molesting, pieces of fucking garbage,
Speaker 2: dumpster shit cunt titties get fucking let back out onto
Speaker 2: the street, and there is no justice for a lot
Speaker 2: of these kids that go through this stuff. There is
Speaker 2: no justice for the dead, dismembered women and children and
Speaker 2: even you know, dudes whatever. But like, there is no
Speaker 2: for them. And that kills me because like at the
Speaker 2: end of every movie, the bad guy gets it, but
Speaker 2: in real life, it's the exact opposite. The bad guy
Speaker 2: doesn't get it well.
Speaker 4: And that's the that's kind of the beauty of the
Speaker 4: Dexter story is that he is a product of a
Speaker 4: failed system. He had to watch his mom get chainsawed
Speaker 4: to death, and then he gets taken in by a
Speaker 4: jaded cop who's fed up with seeing these people walk
Speaker 4: the streets and so he turns the whole thing he's
Speaker 4: against on itself. So yeah, But to get back to
Speaker 4: the point, like this is real when people start idolizing
Speaker 4: these people and the yeah, the true crime movement for
Speaker 4: people in your demographic, I mean it's you know, there's
Speaker 4: the South Park episode murder porn and so funny, but
Speaker 4: the like idolization of serial killers where you have women
Speaker 4: writing letters to Ted Bundy and prison it's wanted to
Speaker 4: marry him.
Speaker 2: One of them did and had a baby with him.
Speaker 4: I mean, isn't that fuck up that Bundy could get
Speaker 4: conjugal visits? Yeah, that's the fucking seed we need sex, that's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh huh.
Speaker 5: But so.
Speaker 2: As soon as there was a name for this new
Speaker 2: and feared breed of criminal, the country bore witness to
Speaker 2: the media, giving saturation coverage to the alleged exploits of
Speaker 2: these individuals, creating larger than life figures out of the
Speaker 2: likes of Henry Lee, Lucas david Son of Sam Berkowitz,
Speaker 2: Theodore Robert Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and the Hillside Stranglers.
Speaker 4: Can I just say, I like how you keep to
Speaker 4: like the serial killer folklore and give Ted Bundy his
Speaker 4: true three names, because why the fuck isn't he known
Speaker 4: as Theodore Robert. Yeah, Jeffrey Dahmer doesn't have a middle
Speaker 4: name that we know.
Speaker 2: Oh, we should google it. Where's my phone? We need
Speaker 2: to use his government name. What the fuck he can't
Speaker 2: get off with just two names?
Speaker 4: Lionel, jeff Lionel Dalmer, Jeff Line does it ring off
Speaker 4: the tongue. I could see why they did.
Speaker 2: Jeff Lionel Dahmer.
Speaker 4: It's gonna be Jeffrey Lionel.
Speaker 2: Jeff l Dahmer, Jeff Jeffriel Jeffriel Dahmer actually has better, okay,
Speaker 2: Jeffreel Dahmer. Okay.
Speaker 5: But so.
Speaker 2: The twelve victims attributed to the Hillside Stranglers were killed
Speaker 2: between October seventeenth, nineteen seventy seven in February seventeenth, nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy eight, closely mirroring the alleged murder spree of Herb
Speaker 2: Mullin from the last episode, whose thirteen alleged victims were
Speaker 2: killed during almost the exact same span of time just
Speaker 2: five years earlier. October thirteenth, nineteen seventy two to February thirteenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three. The last killing attributed to Ted Bundy
Speaker 2: occurred just eight days before the last Hillside strangling on
Speaker 2: February ninth, nineteen seventy eight. Bundy had been killing for
Speaker 2: four years or more, according to varying accounts, So kind
Speaker 2: of like with Manson and Zodiac, it appears that the
Speaker 2: Hillside Stranglers and Herb Mullen and Ted Bundy were kind
Speaker 2: of running parallel as well, or around the same time,
Speaker 2: like October to February. They went for the same about
Speaker 2: the same duration of time, like four to five years.
Speaker 2: And so, as we were saying in the last episode,
Speaker 2: it seems like there is kind of a pattern to
Speaker 2: this stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And if you want to get back to the
Speaker 4: rich element of it, like what is it of the
Speaker 4: months from October to February.
Speaker 2: That's the holiday season, that's the killing moon. Gotta be right.
Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy's reign also ended in nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 2: and he too had been killing for about four years
Speaker 2: longer by some accounts. There were a number of parallels
Speaker 2: between the cases of these high profile killers. Kenneth from
Speaker 2: the Hillside Stranglers, like Charles Manson, was born the son
Speaker 2: of an alcoholic teenage prostitute. His alleged partner, Angelo last
Speaker 2: name I can't pronounce, was also born the son of
Speaker 2: a prostitute. Like Lucas, Angelo spoke of being taken along
Speaker 2: by his mother while she serviced her tricks. According to
Speaker 2: some accounts, Ted Bundy's mother was an abusive young prostitute
Speaker 2: as well, who also practiced her trade in the presence
Speaker 2: of her young son, which is also not usually mentioned
Speaker 2: in the documentaries. Had you ever heard about that?
Speaker 4: Well? I heard about is in program to kill.
Speaker 2: Right me too. I don't know how that goes, though,
Speaker 2: because I was pretty sure that like shortly after he
Speaker 2: was born he was kind of like given to the
Speaker 2: grandparents and raised to believe that his mother was his sister.
Speaker 4: Yeah, much like Jack Nicholson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so don't I don't know.
Speaker 4: Doesn't mean his mom couldn't have been fucking in front
Speaker 4: of him when he was young. Who knows.
Speaker 2: Beyonci, Bundy, and Gacy all had intense interest in law
Speaker 2: enforcement work. Biyonkey, for example, studied police science and call
Speaker 2: went on ride alongs with the LAPD, joined the Sheriff's Reserves,
Speaker 2: and was known to carry a California Highway patrol badge
Speaker 2: and that was one of the fucks from the Hillside stranglers.
Speaker 2: Gacy was described by his wife as a police freak,
Speaker 2: a description that was applied to him by others as well.
Speaker 4: He was friends with all the cops.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he would like tell people about it, like
Speaker 2: he would brag about it.
Speaker 4: When he knew he was being tailed. He ended up
Speaker 4: like knowing the guys that were following him, and he
Speaker 4: would like wave at him and shit.
Speaker 2: And from an early age, Ted Bundy also expressed a
Speaker 2: strong interest in pursuing a law enforcement career, and at
Speaker 2: various times worked for the Seattle Crime Prevention Advisory Committee,
Speaker 2: the King County Law and Justice Planning Office, the Seattle
Speaker 2: Crime Committe, and as a self employed law enforcement consultant,
Speaker 2: billing himself as TRB Theodore Robert Bundy Associates, which is
Speaker 2: fucking hysterical to me. He had his own TRB Associates.
Speaker 4: He's a law enforcement consultant.
Speaker 2: And also worked with as we were kind of talking
Speaker 2: about earlier, the True Crime author and Rule. They worked
Speaker 2: out a rape crisis center.
Speaker 4: Good place to get victims.
Speaker 2: Like Ted Bundy worked at a rape crisis center.
Speaker 4: That's always thought like so the irony. Maybe like a
Speaker 4: serial killer looking to get their feet wet could look
Speaker 4: at a suicie work at a suicide.
Speaker 2: Hotline like rape Crisis.
Speaker 4: Pretty sure that Ted Bundy did that, he.
Speaker 2: Really Yeah, my god.
Speaker 4: You think he just talks some people over the edge
Speaker 4: and that's how he got the taste.
Speaker 2: Of Yeah, no kidding, well it actually because another common
Speaker 2: thread that ties the cases of these men together is
Speaker 2: that most of them had exposure to the depravities that
Speaker 2: one human can inflict upon another. Kenneth Bionki, for example,
Speaker 2: worked for a time as an EMT. So did John
Speaker 2: Wayne Gacy, who also was employed at a mortuary, which
Speaker 2: is what the intelligence community refers to as blooding. They
Speaker 2: found themselves drawn to the blood and the gore. What
Speaker 2: do you.
Speaker 4: Think, Well, I mean, it's like an occupation of opportunity.
Speaker 4: Much how we noticed that people who had a hanker
Speaker 4: in for children would maybe work at daycarees, preschools, or churches,
Speaker 4: and so what's not to say that, Like, I'm not
Speaker 4: going to go out on a limb and suggest that
Speaker 4: these people got their taste for blood because they had
Speaker 4: these jobs. But they sought these jobs out because of
Speaker 4: their taste for blood.
Speaker 2: But how does the CIA aspect of this come into
Speaker 2: their blooding fetish?
Speaker 4: Like maybe they had raised red flags that drew attention
Speaker 4: to them. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean I think that you know,
Speaker 4: they have feelers out in many aspects, in many areas
Speaker 4: that we would never even think of. Like we all
Speaker 4: know they watch our Internet search history. So who's to
Speaker 4: not say, you know, I talked about this on a
Speaker 4: podcast of mine recently, where your library reading is put
Speaker 4: into a database. They did a reference to that in
Speaker 4: the movie seven. That's actually how they found out where
Speaker 4: the guy lived. Because so I don't know, if you
Speaker 4: like the sickos.
Speaker 2: That work out of mortuary and.
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, a lot of this stuff like EMTs, for example,
Speaker 4: that's volunteer, like you could, oh.
Speaker 2: Like a volunteer firefighter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like where I grew up, you were a volunteer firefighter.
Speaker 4: But uh, that also was the case with EMTs. So
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that if you volunteer to be an EMT,
Speaker 4: you go into a database. But I'm also not saying
Speaker 4: that they don't do that.
Speaker 2: That's a good point and actually, in a similar vein
Speaker 2: some might say the entire country is being blooded through
Speaker 2: near constant exposure to a TV and video game diet
Speaker 2: increasingly dominated by scenes of graphic violence. The effect of
Speaker 2: this is to radically de sense. It ties individuals or
Speaker 2: an entire society to appalling levels of bloodshed and carnage.
Speaker 2: But I tend to disagree a little on this, just
Speaker 2: because we talked about it the other day. I used
Speaker 2: The Last House on the Left as an example, but
Speaker 2: you had another movie that you mentioned where it's like
Speaker 2: they say, by playing video games and watching like violent
Speaker 2: shit on TV, it desensitizes you and gives you bloodlust
Speaker 2: or some shit like that.
Speaker 4: But we were having a broader discussion on whether or
Speaker 4: not your brain can tell the difference between violence you
Speaker 4: see on television and violence in real life, and I said,
Speaker 4: I don't think that your brain doesn't know the difference,
Speaker 4: but I do think there's a desensitizing element to it.
Speaker 4: And then we like both came up with our examples
Speaker 4: of like violent scenes and movies that like struck us
Speaker 4: to our core because of how graphic and realistic they were.
Speaker 5: M H.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I do agree that the dissensitive tizing element
Speaker 4: of this stuff cannot be denied. But you I personally
Speaker 4: think that you know the difference between a dead body
Speaker 4: in the street on your way to work and watching
Speaker 4: a show. But there are elements of this stuff that
Speaker 4: we know has been scientifically studying and applied, like the
Speaker 4: military's use of fucking video games. That is real.
Speaker 2: But I mean, do you think it's it's like given
Speaker 2: people a bloodlust.
Speaker 4: Well, something I've always said and I've heard other people
Speaker 4: say it too, is not everyone is as susceptible to
Speaker 4: the programming.
Speaker 2: So I definitely agree with that.
Speaker 4: Not everybody who reads Catcher and the Rise is gonna
Speaker 4: want to go assassinate somebody.
Speaker 2: Did they mention Sir Hans Sirhan with that whose day
Speaker 2: in the documentary when they were talking about they did,
Speaker 2: they did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, back, yeah, the clockworks shining Sir hanser and was
Speaker 4: obviously programmed. They they talked about the is it yeah
Speaker 4: but the driving point or not driving point but psychic
Speaker 4: driving where you.
Speaker 2: Just repeat yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4: You looked at Han's journals RFK Must Die and they
Speaker 4: were comparing it to all Work and No Play makes
Speaker 4: Jack and Dull Boy, like the psychic driving that was
Speaker 4: probably going on to you know, the Jack Nicholson character.
Speaker 2: It is kind of like I think they use like frequencies,
Speaker 2: flashing lights, stuff like that to like put you in
Speaker 2: a trance like state when you watch certain things, and
Speaker 2: then they insert like the blood and the violence and
Speaker 2: the killing and shit. So maybe they put like subconscious
Speaker 2: programming into your head about that stuff. But like you said,
Speaker 2: I don't think everyone is as susceptible to that shit. No.
Speaker 4: And I will tell you this. Monica Purez knew someone
Speaker 4: who had a family member in the CIA, and I
Speaker 4: also had a friend who said this very same thing.
Speaker 4: His uncle was a professional athlete and a member of
Speaker 4: the NSSA and the CIA, and what he said to
Speaker 4: him was the one thing I can tell you without
Speaker 4: telling you too much is never watch TV. And Monica
Speaker 4: Perez's family connection said the same thing, never watch TV.
Speaker 4: They have done something with it. And don't think that
Speaker 4: doesn't apply to fucking Netflix and Hulu. We're not definitely
Speaker 4: about fucking five basic channels was what they had to
Speaker 4: work with back then, like Poltergeist, I mean, just all
Speaker 4: of it, just the flicker eate of the TV. You know,
Speaker 4: we people have done extensive research into that, and even
Speaker 4: sound frequencies and the changing of music to the hurts
Speaker 4: level that it's at now. So I mean, I think
Speaker 4: it all applies. I think we we lose like the
Speaker 4: nuance of it. Like it's not like it's beaming images
Speaker 4: subliminately into your head as much as it it's able
Speaker 4: to affect your overall state of being by introducing you
Speaker 4: to certain.
Speaker 2: Light and that I definitely agree with.
Speaker 4: But then, yeah, violent video games, that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 4: What's the science they've put in there.
Speaker 2: A lot of the high profile serial killers also had
Speaker 2: weird connections to political parties. I think we touched on
Speaker 2: this a little bit in the last episode.
Speaker 4: Like with Bundy, we did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, in this example, I have Gacy because despite
Speaker 2: Gacy being a fucking criminal, he had a high enough
Speaker 2: security clearance to have a face to face meeting with
Speaker 2: then first Lady Rosalind Carter, And I mean, how many
Speaker 2: people do you know, I mean, think about that he
Speaker 2: had a face to face meeting with the first Lady
Speaker 2: despite the fact that he was a fucking well.
Speaker 4: There's the famous photo of them together.
Speaker 2: And Ted Bundy we did talk about was connected to
Speaker 2: various Republican parties and was they always put that in
Speaker 2: the documentaries. I feel like that's kind of well known
Speaker 2: about him, that he was they actually was using him
Speaker 2: to like go spy and then come back and like
Speaker 2: tell them it was it's all convoluted mess. But anyways, Yeah.
Speaker 4: So he would like dress up and go to the Democratics.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then go back and like tell yeah.
Speaker 4: It sounds like Nicky on Big Love.
Speaker 2: Yeah it does. And kind of wrapping up here, before
Speaker 2: we take a closer look at the stories of these men,
Speaker 2: you should know that the era in which their crimes
Speaker 2: were committed was a time when reported cases of multiple
Speaker 2: personality disorder skyrocketed. Before the deck of the nineteen seventies
Speaker 2: was over twice as many cases of multiple personality disorder
Speaker 2: had been reported just in that ten year span then
Speaker 2: in the previous one hundred years, which is absolutely astounding.
Speaker 2: Think about that. And it's all to do with the
Speaker 2: programs as we were. I mean, I think we've said
Speaker 2: it a million times, but I mean in nineteen seventy,
Speaker 2: what was it, nineteen seventy to what nineteen eighty, twice
Speaker 2: as many cases of multiple personality disorder. Then in the
Speaker 2: previous one hundred years.
Speaker 4: Well, and much like the false memory syndrome that was
Speaker 4: kind of presented by the very people that were very
Speaker 4: much involved in the Satanic ortol abuse, there was a
Speaker 4: mass effort to even I think they were trying to
Speaker 4: say that multiple personality disorder wasn't real, that it was
Speaker 4: a condition that was faked. Yeah, uh huh. That's a
Speaker 4: great example because her doctor came out with this whole
Speaker 4: thing saying she was in love with him and she
Speaker 4: was also and that he like discredited her entire case.
Speaker 4: But this was stuff that was going on and still
Speaker 4: goes on to this day, I think, where it's not
Speaker 4: accepted that it's even a real disorder. South Perk again
Speaker 4: has a great episode on that what's it called, I
Speaker 4: don't remember, but.
Speaker 2: We got to watch it. There are indications that all
Speaker 2: of these alleged killers suffered to varying degrees from a
Speaker 2: dissociative disorder. Bionkey was diagnosed as such by a number
Speaker 2: of therapists, though this diagnosis was disputed by others, including
Speaker 2: the CIA's own Martin Orne and Margaret Singer. Did you
Speaker 2: know that that's crazy, isn't it? They they literally diagnosed
Speaker 2: him like a million times, and then these assholes were like, Oh, no,
Speaker 2: he doesn't have it. Nothing to see here, folks, He's
Speaker 2: just walking around with seven personalities.
Speaker 4: That's just you know, theater Ted Robert.
Speaker 2: Actually, since you mentioned it, he was never formally diagnosed,
Speaker 2: but Ted Bundy displayed unmistakable signs of a dissociative disorder
Speaker 2: as well. Not only could Bundy's personality change at a
Speaker 2: moment's notice, but his physical appearance could as well. Bundy
Speaker 2: had a chameleon likability to alter his appearance, an ability
Speaker 2: that is clearly displayed in the numerous photos of him
Speaker 2: that are plastered in documentaries. A neighbor of his in
Speaker 2: Florida once offered this observation, quote, he always looked different.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Sometimes he just didn't even look like
Speaker 2: the same person at all. End quote, which if you
Speaker 2: look at pictures of him, they say that he has
Speaker 2: dead eyes like he does. His physical appearance does change.
Speaker 2: And it made me think of split kind of you
Speaker 2: know how, like with each personality there was like physical changes,
Speaker 2: and so I mean, what do you think about that?
Speaker 4: I don't know. It makes me think of a lot
Speaker 4: of things, like these people being actors, these these people
Speaker 4: being possessed, really people being practiced.
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good word to use.
Speaker 4: Well fractured psychologically, but I mean you're talking about the
Speaker 4: Christian angle of it, and a lot of people think
Speaker 4: this is possession. But I always said that, Yeah, they
Speaker 4: were possessed. But was it safe or was it the
Speaker 4: fucking CIA or was.
Speaker 2: It just not Satan himself? But like a demon? Well,
Speaker 2: I mean I think there's bad spirit. Yeah, do you
Speaker 2: believe in that?
Speaker 4: I do believe in possession.
Speaker 2: I mean I don't like not like do you believe
Speaker 2: in it like Emily Rose, like Reagan in the Exorcist style?
Speaker 4: Or like what do I think there's something to all
Speaker 4: that you do? Okay, But a really good movie is
Speaker 4: Fallen with Denzel Washington.
Speaker 2: Is it about split personality?
Speaker 4: No, he's dealing with a serial killer and it's a
Speaker 4: demon that can go through people by touch.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: And so he thinks he has the serial killer and
Speaker 4: then that's the demon of the serial killer just finds
Speaker 4: a new host.
Speaker 2: Oh my god? Do you think that could be what
Speaker 2: this is?
Speaker 4: I mean I entertain all sorts of ideas.
Speaker 2: It's not like like the person has to go to jail,
Speaker 2: but the demon just goes set a loose into the
Speaker 2: next person.
Speaker 4: Why not, I mean the stranger things have happened.
Speaker 2: Like they seia like open their minds up to let
Speaker 2: the demon come in.
Speaker 4: Well, that's what I always thought, Like, why take all
Speaker 4: the time to fracture somebody if you're not trying to
Speaker 4: put something else in there?
Speaker 2: The driver?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you're programming whom. I mean, there's a certain
Speaker 4: aspect of that person that's still there and able to
Speaker 4: maintain the body. But I'm not willing to rule out
Speaker 4: anything as far as possession goes. But I'm also saying
Speaker 4: that it might not be that complicated that you could
Speaker 4: just program people.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 12: Well.
Speaker 2: An investigator on the Bundy case named Joe Alloy claimed
Speaker 2: that he once observed Bundy react to a particularly stressful
Speaker 2: situation by spontaneously and quite radically altering his physical appearance.
Speaker 2: Ted's body and muscular tone changed remarkably, and he suddenly
Speaker 2: became sweaty and begin admitting a noticeable odor, probably from
Speaker 2: all the dead puss coming back to haunt him.
Speaker 4: All the victims' families could see us laughy.
Speaker 2: Are we heartless? But how do you change your smell?
Speaker 4: Demon?
Speaker 2: Sticks? But that goes that that supports our demon theory.
Speaker 4: I guess.
Speaker 2: What do you mean.
Speaker 4: I don't have a demon theory. You do, So I'm
Speaker 4: willing to entertain all sorts of shit.
Speaker 2: Although John Wayne Gacy did not have the ability to
Speaker 2: alter his physical appearance, because have you seen him, he's
Speaker 2: a big, fat fuck, his personality could change in a
Speaker 2: split second. Gaysey was viewed by many as a pillar
Speaker 2: of the community, a man who was politically active and
Speaker 2: well connected, who gave his time freely to entertain children,
Speaker 2: who was a valued neighbor, who regularly hosted parties with
Speaker 2: hundreds of guests, and who was a successful businessman and
Speaker 2: a loving father. On the other hand, he also had
Speaker 2: the unique distinction of being convicted of thirty three counts
Speaker 2: of first degree murder. How are we to reconcile these
Speaker 2: two sides of John Wayne Gacy? And I say thirty
Speaker 2: three because I feel like that's ritualistic.
Speaker 4: Obviously, but I mean to bring Dexter back. In the
Speaker 4: first season of Dexter, he's really driving home the point
Speaker 4: of how he has to appear in the eyes of
Speaker 4: the community. So first of all, he's entertaining children again,
Speaker 4: occupation of opportunity, but also like he was a pillar
Speaker 4: of his community.
Speaker 2: Well, I will say watching the John Wayne Gacy tapes
Speaker 2: on Netflix, Oh.
Speaker 7: John akay, what I tell you is what I know
Speaker 7: is fat.
Speaker 6: I'm a power person.
Speaker 2: I enjoy power.
Speaker 3: So we all had to get to pull up that.
Speaker 10: I pulled up.
Speaker 1: Again.
Speaker 7: Police today found six more bodies.
Speaker 10: Under the home of suspected killer John Gaysey.
Speaker 7: Well, you can be walking down the street and if
Speaker 7: Casey lay eyes on you know you have now become
Speaker 7: his next victim.
Speaker 4: And too, you're kind of hunt. I'll do anything you want.
Speaker 7: Just told Bust that's scary. Everybody from the neighborhood new
Speaker 7: Jack Gaysey that.
Speaker 1: Was founding and appearing in it at least at a
Speaker 1: fifteen parade.
Speaker 7: He was also a Democratic precinct captain.
Speaker 4: He seemed very personable, very friendly, but he could turn.
Speaker 7: On a dime. There is a right way, there's a
Speaker 7: wrong way, and there's my way. Was he insane or
Speaker 7: was he evil?
Speaker 9: Had a young, clean cut par look to be gay.
Speaker 2: In the nineteen seventies, so it was so much prejudice.
Speaker 4: We find out that, yeah, there's a kid he worked
Speaker 4: from Jacy. I haven't seen him in a while.
Speaker 7: I know this guy he worked there. He's missing too.
Speaker 2: A lot of officers were telling parents they're runaways.
Speaker 4: You're killing back in a day now. A lot of
Speaker 4: conversations with and with good luck with that.
Speaker 1: I just feeling shooted again in my life with.
Speaker 4: His sexual urges that came out as range.
Speaker 7: I heard a clique behind me. It was a revolver
Speaker 7: and he had it pointed.
Speaker 13: At my head.
Speaker 4: Nobody wants to accept what the hell I say.
Speaker 7: He was playing a he can't mouse game with the
Speaker 7: police department.
Speaker 4: He can't let Jacy go. If he tries to leave,
Speaker 4: you got to shoot his tires out. Whatever it was there,
Speaker 4: we had to find it. I'm accused of it too much.
Speaker 7: I guys to go out and do it.
Speaker 4: I don't even know if I shill.
Speaker 1: I have no remar I don't get away with anything.
Speaker 1: I don't get away with murder.
Speaker 2: I was able to sit through the Dahmer tapes and
Speaker 2: the Bundee tapes without any problem, easy, peasy, breezy. The
Speaker 2: gay Sy tapes made me sick to my stomach. It
Speaker 2: was hard for me to sit through them. It made
Speaker 2: me nauseous. He's so fucking ugly and fat, and he
Speaker 2: looks like he stinks and he just has like the
Speaker 2: grossest fucking nasty and then like he would be like,
Speaker 2: I'm not gay, I'm bisexual. I learned that from the
Speaker 2: military or whatever he said, and then he would he
Speaker 2: would rape and murder these boys.
Speaker 4: Well, there's a difference between being a homosexual and a child.
Speaker 2: Killer, right, he was like, I'm not gay, I'm.
Speaker 4: By It's kind of like Kevin Spacey's defense when he
Speaker 4: first got called out. He's like, did I fuck that
Speaker 4: fifteen year old? I have always been into both men
Speaker 4: and women.
Speaker 2: Like, what does that have to do with anything? You're
Speaker 2: fucking murdering of raping case.
Speaker 4: Well, I listened to this series of tapes from a
Speaker 4: guy who is talking with Gasey, and the guy Gacy
Speaker 4: just kept coming on to him and like trying to
Speaker 4: get him to come visit, and the guy just kind
Speaker 4: of played along and acted like he was, you know,
Speaker 4: not shutting him out entirely just to get him to
Speaker 4: keep talking. So Gaysey was gay, Gasey was gay, baby
Speaker 4: Gasey was bisexual. I'm not taking it from him.
Speaker 2: He didn't murder one girl fair enough, So I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously we see where his sexual appetite was for young boys. Yeah,
Speaker 2: wasn't nothing to do with buy But so, I mean,
Speaker 2: men such as Gacy are usually said to be sociopaths.
Speaker 2: They're said to be lacking a conscience. The persona that
Speaker 2: is presented to the public is said to be nothing
Speaker 2: more than an elaborate ruse, an emotionless facade disguising the
Speaker 2: monster within. But is it not just as likely, if
Speaker 2: not more so, that the public self put on display
Speaker 2: is in fact a legitimate personality, separate and distinct from
Speaker 2: the one that does the killing. And when the monster emerges,
Speaker 2: does this represent the facade slipping away or an alter
Speaker 2: personality emerging or is there any difference? Is this sociopath
Speaker 2: label not just another way of describing multiple personality disorder.
Speaker 4: I mean there's a lot of nuance to that, Like
Speaker 4: I think all can be true, like what you kind
Speaker 4: of just wrapped up with, But I think in some
Speaker 4: instances there are there is a level of programming where
Speaker 4: the regular driver of the body is completely tied up
Speaker 4: in the back seat and blindfolded, or maybe like with
Speaker 4: cases of gaycy, you are just a fucking monster and
Speaker 4: you understand that you've got to fool a lot of
Speaker 4: people to do what you want to do.
Speaker 2: I think both can be true, definitely, because like Paul
Speaker 2: Banasi is not a serial killer, but he helped and
Speaker 2: like which personality was.
Speaker 4: At well, I think he was the ban I think
Speaker 4: it was a young person doing what they needed to
Speaker 4: do to survive. In Paul Banazi's.
Speaker 2: Case, Yeah, but was that like his his was that
Speaker 2: Paul Banasi or was that a personality that they made
Speaker 2: that would be complacent with that shit?
Speaker 4: Well, a lot of times, if you're constantly in a
Speaker 4: situation that you don't want to face as being your reality,
Speaker 4: then yeah, you might vacate and create an altar. So
Speaker 4: maybe Paul couldn't tick that he was, you know, recruiting
Speaker 4: young boys off the street, doing this to lead them
Speaker 4: to the same fit he had already gone through. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of nuance too. But I
Speaker 4: think that in some cases there is complete like shattering
Speaker 4: of your persona.
Speaker 2: Does it not remind you of the Changeling with Angelina
Speaker 2: Julie what Paul Banazi was doing, because in that movie,
Speaker 2: there was the main boy that went and recruited all
Speaker 2: the younger boys and then they went back to like
Speaker 2: the chicken farm.
Speaker 4: I totally forgot about that aspect of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's the serial killer said in that movie
Speaker 2: that if you get one of the older boys to
Speaker 2: do it, the younger boys will trust him and he
Speaker 2: doesn't even have to do the work anymore.
Speaker 4: Well, in another movie is Prisoners with Hugh Jackman and
Speaker 4: Jake Chillenhall, where Paul Daniel spoiler alert if no one's
Speaker 4: out there hasn't seen this movie, plug your ears. But
Speaker 4: the Paul Daniel character is who they think is the killer,
Speaker 4: but he's really just doing the recruiting for his grandparents.
Speaker 2: Because if you're a high enough level of a like
Speaker 2: serial killer, you don't even have to get your victims anymore.
Speaker 2: You can just have like train one of your victims
Speaker 2: to bring you more victims.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And is that like an excessive level of Stockholm
Speaker 4: or is it just like I said earlier, maybe a
Speaker 4: path to your own survival.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the next episode, we're gonna be taking
Speaker 2: an even closer look at these serial killers and the
Speaker 2: crimes attributed to them. Is it really as we're made
Speaker 2: to believe? Kind of like what I said in the
Speaker 2: first episode with the twigs and berries with Ted Bundy.
Speaker 2: We're gonna get into something you mean, which is he
Speaker 2: couldn't have been in two places at one time, kind
Speaker 2: of like some of the ship couldn't have been him.
Speaker 2: And we're gonna get a little bit farther into that,
Speaker 2: maybe some more Gacy and Manson stuff. But yeah, what
Speaker 2: do you think so far?
Speaker 4: I am fractured?
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for listening. I
Speaker 2: hope you learned a lot of shit. And until next time,
Speaker 2: there is one very important, vital piece of information I
Speaker 2: need you to learn just as soon as humanly possible.
Speaker 4: People of strange.
Speaker 13: When you're a strange, faces look ugly when you're all alone, women,
Speaker 13: single kid, when you're own. Word streets are uneven when
Speaker 13: you're down. When you're straight, faces come out of the
Speaker 13: rain when you're strange. No, when remelts were known. When
Speaker 13: you're straight, when you're strange, when stray bull straight when
Speaker 13: you're a stranger, face is not gonely when you're alone,
Speaker 13: when let's see way.
Speaker 4: Kid, what's that a lot? What do you mean?
Speaker 2: And of particular significance?
Speaker 7: What did I right here?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: They?
Speaker 2: Are you able to get out deier than me? Can
Speaker 2: you get me some toilet paper. Baby, I need to
Speaker 2: blow my nose so bad. I have like a bubble
Speaker 2: in the back of my throat. HM. Fuck me. If
Speaker 2: I could just not be thick for like two weeks,
Speaker 2: that would be great. Fungus, fungus, I'm us I have
Speaker 2: a fungus? Where'd I get it? Broke your apphone words? M,
Speaker 2: I thought I misspelled word for a second. I must
Speaker 2: be filling my line.
Speaker 4: Can you get me a tu.
Speaker 2: Kenneth Bonacci from the Hillside Stranglers, Biyanki Byonkie? Are you
Speaker 2: sure I've always said Beyonce Binacci, Binacci Binachi? Are you positive? Okay, Bianki?
Speaker 2: Since Kenneth, why aren't you laughing at me? Just doesn't
Speaker 2: it look like Bananchi binanch Bonacci? No, I'm gonna take
Speaker 2: your word for it because I've only ever read the name.
Speaker 2: I've never heard it pronounced to what it's funny. I've
Speaker 2: never heard of pronounced babe. Can't I can't say him
Speaker 2: because you said it? Okay strong Britney?
Speaker 4: What it was obviously a funny joke?
Speaker 2: Strong to saying it Beyonkey? Can it beyond.
Speaker 10: M?
Speaker 2: Why that's funny? Babe? Why are you laughing at me.
Speaker 10: Screen?
Speaker 2: What I don't mean. I don't even think I typed
Speaker 2: it right through near constant exposure to TV and video
Speaker 2: game diet.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. I tell you out of the jokes later.
Speaker 3: Give to me a moment.
Speaker 14: Yeah, yes, sorry, Are you sorry?
Speaker 5: I guess so.
Speaker 2: We're done.
Speaker 4: A better
Speaker 1: Mach