1
00:00:02,439 --> 00:00:05,879
Speaker 1: Today's episode of the Tribecast is supported by the Texas

2
00:00:05,879 --> 00:00:14,960
Tribune Membership program. Welcome to the trib Cast. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff,

3
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,559
women's health reporter, joined not today by my co host,

4
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,559
editor in chief Matthew Watkins. When I wrote this script,

5
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,239
he was going to attend, but then we had to

6
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,359
reschedule due to reasons we will get into, involving the

7
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,320
UT regents scheduling a poorly timed meeting as if they

8
00:00:34,399 --> 00:00:36,359
knew we were meeting today to talk about this all.

9
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,039
So Matthew is not here today. It is just me,

10
00:00:39,359 --> 00:00:42,280
and that is fine because I am joined by two

11
00:00:42,399 --> 00:00:47,240
phenomenal guests. I am joined. I was gonna say all

12
00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,200
the way on the end, but most people join us

13
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,119
on YouTube if you want to watch. Jessica Priest, who

14
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,880
is the higher education reporter at the Texas Tribune. Jessica,

15
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:55,320
how are you?

16
00:00:55,679 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 2: I'm doing well? How are you ell?

17
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: I'm good? Thanks? And former higher ed reporter turned investigative

18
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,280
reporter Kate McGee Malaysia. Kate, how are you? I'm great?

19
00:01:05,359 --> 00:01:05,680
Speaker 2: How are you?

20
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 1: I'm good? Thanks. We are really excited for today's episode.

21
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,439
We're going to talk about higher education. And the state

22
00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,480
of Higher ED in Texas, which is the real reason

23
00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:17,040
that Matthew would not attend is we said, you're going

24
00:01:17,079 --> 00:01:18,840
to talk about higher ED, you have to talk about

25
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,799
UT as well as A and M. And he said no,

26
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,079
he could not Avid, he could not avide. So he

27
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,719
is not here. But we can make plenty fun of

28
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,159
A and M. And I'm sure approximately fifty percent of

29
00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,719
our audience will love that. I will also say I'm

30
00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:36,840
really excited about this because a little inside baseball, we

31
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,239
got some analytics on the trib cast. Okay, and the

32
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:45,159
least watched episode on YouTube was our episode where I

33
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,000
had two other female reporters on to talk about abortion.

34
00:01:50,439 --> 00:01:52,120
With this, I do think we get to we get

35
00:01:52,159 --> 00:01:54,319
to run like a little case study of like, was

36
00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:57,239
it that people don't love three women talking or they

37
00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,319
don't love three women talking about abortion.

38
00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,359
Speaker 2: Or both are depressing?

39
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, both are depressing. See what the views look like

40
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,319
on this. If you, you know, want to give the

41
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,080
help cook the books a little bit, watch this episode

42
00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,759
on YouTube so that we can conclude people hate talking

43
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:22,039
about abortion, which three years on my job has proven true. Okay,

44
00:02:22,039 --> 00:02:24,680
so to talk about higher ED, you know, Texas has

45
00:02:24,719 --> 00:02:28,319
some of the largest and wealthiest university systems in the country.

46
00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,719
We have more top tier research universities than any other

47
00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,520
state by like a decent margin. We have arguably the

48
00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,280
best sports teams and the most devoted fan bases in

49
00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:44,520
the entire country. So things should be really all happy

50
00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:47,639
days on the Higher ED beat, and yet nothing is

51
00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,240
ever quite that simple. We've got protests, we've got legislative battles,

52
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,560
we've got major turnover at the top of these big institutions,

53
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,840
and we're going to get into all of that. So

54
00:02:57,879 --> 00:03:00,479
I want to start by talking about what's going on

55
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,039
at the legislature with Higher ED. Kate, maybe you can

56
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,599
sort of take us back to last session when it

57
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:07,960
feels to me at least like a lot of this

58
00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:09,840
sort of kicked off last session.

59
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, in some ways, I would even argue it started

60
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,719
a couple sessions ago with the critical race theory ban

61
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,039
in K through twelve schools. That prompted a lot of

62
00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,560
concern from university professors. And that was the band that

63
00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:27,120
you know, talked about how schools can talk about like

64
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,800
race and racism in the classroom. A lot of professors

65
00:03:31,439 --> 00:03:36,000
were concerned about kind of the encroachment into the classroom,

66
00:03:36,199 --> 00:03:40,080
and professors at UT put out a resolution kind of

67
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,520
planting their flag in the sand that they have academic

68
00:03:42,599 --> 00:03:45,599
freedom to teach kind of what they want as long

69
00:03:45,639 --> 00:03:49,520
as in their subject matters. And dan Patrick did not

70
00:03:49,719 --> 00:03:52,680
like that, and that was kind of the kickoff that

71
00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:56,719
prompted him to say, we're going to end tenure in

72
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,879
our universities in the state of Texas, which in twenty

73
00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:04,759
twenty three was one of his priority bills. And then

74
00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:08,280
around that time, the talk about critical race theory as

75
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,280
kind of this buzzword shifted to diversity, equity and inclusion.

76
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,680
Speaker 1: We saw a concerted effort.

77
00:04:14,319 --> 00:04:17,720
Speaker 3: And Texas, I think now we you know, like we

78
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,399
hear about DEI bans on the federal level, and the

79
00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:23,920
who like the country is like, we forget that. Texas

80
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,959
was really leading the way a couple years ago, along

81
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,600
with Florida, to kind of be the first states to

82
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,920
crack down on DEI offices and this whole apparatus in

83
00:04:35,959 --> 00:04:40,319
the university systems. And so the state banned diversity equity

84
00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:44,759
and inclusion offices. They removed funding for all of these

85
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,519
type of programs from you know, at the state level.

86
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,720
Eventually tenure was not eliminated, but it's now kind of

87
00:04:53,759 --> 00:04:57,279
codified in our laws rather than leaving it up to

88
00:04:57,399 --> 00:04:59,800
universities and how they want to deal with tenure. So

89
00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,759
it's given the legislature a lot more power in terms

90
00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,800
of how they might want to come back and adjust

91
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,000
that later on, although I think faculty kind of felt

92
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,639
like it was still a win that they kept tenure.

93
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,639
You know, Patrick really wanted to eliminate it.

94
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,480
Speaker 1: They're out basically to give them the power to like

95
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,800
fire iron fire who they wanted exactly.

96
00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:21,199
Speaker 3: And the tenure is, like, you know, that is one

97
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,160
of the standard protections for faculty to be able to

98
00:05:25,319 --> 00:05:28,560
teach and research what they want without fear of government

99
00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,920
encroachment telling them what to do and what they should

100
00:05:32,079 --> 00:05:34,839
be researching or what their research should say, et cetera,

101
00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,439
et cetera. So it's all kind of coming back to

102
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,439
this core of having academic freedom in the pursuit of

103
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,079
like knowledge and truth rather than.

104
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,040
Speaker 1: What a government might want you to say. Because tenure

105
00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:49,600
is not like traditionally been particularly like it's not like

106
00:05:49,639 --> 00:05:55,120
a political thing, except that it allows professors to when

107
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,720
they feel it necessary to like speak out against the government.

108
00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,560
Speaker 3: But that was not it's like right, I mean, the

109
00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:03,319
origin was to kind of make sure that government couldn't

110
00:06:03,319 --> 00:06:04,120
come and say, like.

111
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,040
Speaker 1: Your research is wrong, like your research has to.

112
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,560
Speaker 3: Say this, or your you have to teach this in

113
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,279
the classroom, and so it was to kind of protect

114
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,399
from government intervention in the classroom. So there is some

115
00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:19,800
political kind of backstory there, I think, and we've seen

116
00:06:19,879 --> 00:06:24,040
you know, pressure in the you know, in periods of history,

117
00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:28,360
this kind of conflict in this tension at the university level.

118
00:06:28,439 --> 00:06:33,199
But I think this is the declaration from Patrick a

119
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,319
few years ago to end tenure was like got national

120
00:06:37,319 --> 00:06:41,720
attention from professor groups and you know, faculty all over

121
00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:45,120
the country because that was really the furthest we've really

122
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,600
seen anyone ever kind of go in recent memory in

123
00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,800
terms of going after tenure as in practice and.

124
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,439
Speaker 2: What Texas if if that had happened, would Texas have

125
00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:58,879
been the only state to eliminate tenure of other states?

126
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, Texas would have been kind of ahead, like

127
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:03,160
an outlier.

128
00:07:03,439 --> 00:07:06,480
Speaker 2: And I remember the criticism of that proposal was that

129
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,360
it was going to lead a lot of faculty to

130
00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:13,199
pursue opportunities in other states, and.

131
00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 3: That was their argument with DEI two, and I think

132
00:07:18,079 --> 00:07:20,120
that has not really borne out. I mean, you hear

133
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,879
anecdotally people leaving or not taking a job. But I think,

134
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,399
you know, Patrick has you know, made some kind of

135
00:07:28,319 --> 00:07:30,800
tongue in cheek comments about how we haven't seen that

136
00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:33,560
happen and people and you know, people's lives are complicated,

137
00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,800
and you have a you know, working at the University

138
00:07:35,839 --> 00:07:38,800
of Texas is still a prestigious.

139
00:07:38,279 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 1: Job, more top tier research universities.

140
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,040
Speaker 3: Exactly, and like, you know, it's not something there's not

141
00:07:44,079 --> 00:07:48,040
like all these universities just handing out jobs left and right.

142
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,639
Like getting a ten year job at a university is

143
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,879
like a year long process. It's not like you can

144
00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:59,000
just go start applying. It's a much more difficult thing

145
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,759
I think to really like wantify at the impact of

146
00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:06,240
why someone might go. But also now we're living like

147
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,759
the unfriendly nature that you know, faculty feel like they

148
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,839
were working in here in Texas kind of exists everywhere now,

149
00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:16,120
so right.

150
00:08:16,199 --> 00:08:21,040
Speaker 1: Right as goes Texas, Jessica, So talk to just about

151
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,160
like how this sort of crusade from legislators has continued

152
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,439
this session. What are the big battle lines we're seeing?

153
00:08:27,879 --> 00:08:31,480
Speaker 2: So when I started this on this beat and the

154
00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:36,279
session I was really looking for. I was really thinking,

155
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,279
will they bring up the same arguments that they did

156
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,960
last session, like will they try to eliminate tenure again?

157
00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:48,720
Will they try to expand the DEI ban because there

158
00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:58,840
are exemptions for scholarly research and grants. So I was

159
00:08:58,879 --> 00:09:02,679
looking because you've been seeing complaints from lawmakers in the

160
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:08,960
interim that like sporadically they're tweeting that so and so

161
00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:14,039
university is not complying with the ban. So I wanted

162
00:09:14,279 --> 00:09:17,840
that was what I was most anticipating. But what has

163
00:09:17,919 --> 00:09:23,279
happened is Senator Creighton, the author of the DEI ban

164
00:09:23,399 --> 00:09:27,159
in twenty twenty three, authored a piece of legislation this

165
00:09:27,799 --> 00:09:32,200
session that's really like sweeping and does a lot of

166
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,039
different things, but essentially it would limit faculties influence on

167
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:42,480
curriculum and hiring decisions, and transfer a lot of that

168
00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,320
what's traditionally been like they've traditionally things that they've advised

169
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,440
administration on or had some role in. Would defer that

170
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,320
and transfer that to the Board of Regents, which are

171
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,840
appointed by the governor. So more state control of universities

172
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:00,679
what we're seeing.

173
00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:03,279
Speaker 1: So it's sort of the same root idea, right, which

174
00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:08,120
is like universities are hot beds of leftist, woke ideology.

175
00:10:08,799 --> 00:10:13,000
The faculty are kind of the you know, engine of that,

176
00:10:13,399 --> 00:10:17,720
and we should remove some of their authority. Is that right?

177
00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's it would set up. I mean, the bill

178
00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:24,919
keeps changing, but one of the one of the things

179
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,919
that hasn't changed kind of remained the same, as this

180
00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,440
idea that the governing board should review curriculum periodically and

181
00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:40,360
that the curriculum should not include any wrote it down,

182
00:10:40,519 --> 00:10:44,679
should not promote or advocate any race, sex, ethnicity, or

183
00:10:44,759 --> 00:10:49,000
religious belief is better or superior to another. And Creighton's

184
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,799
original bill that also included social and political beliefs. And

185
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,879
professors have said that this is essentially like an extension

186
00:10:57,919 --> 00:11:02,879
of the DEI band to you know, the classroom, and

187
00:11:02,919 --> 00:11:08,000
that they've already are operating under this like like climate chilling,

188
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,200
affect climate, and they would be afraid to bring up

189
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,480
controversial topics in their classroom and get a complaint launched

190
00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:18,080
against them.

191
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:26,159
Speaker 3: Interesting, it's how have faculty like respond responded to the

192
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,879
idea of like how these lawmakers paint what's going on

193
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,080
in the classroom? Because I remember in the original DEI

194
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,919
ban or even like with the tenure debate, a lot

195
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,960
of the faculty would say like this, how they're describing

196
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,480
what's going on doesn't reflect what's like actually happening in

197
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,080
the classroom or how I'm teaching.

198
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:45,480
Speaker 1: Do they feel the same.

199
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:51,039
Speaker 2: Way, Yeah, they feel like yes they do. They feel

200
00:11:51,039 --> 00:11:55,200
like the there's already like a rigorous review of their

201
00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:02,159
coursework and this would just add like unnecessary bureaucracy and

202
00:12:02,879 --> 00:12:06,080
would make it so that their coursework they can't like

203
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,679
adapt as quickly to what their students need.

204
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:12,960
Speaker 1: Is we talked about this, I've talked about this on

205
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,399
a lot of the trip Cast episodes because like it's

206
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,200
a pretty persistent theme in Texas politics. But I also

207
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,679
think like in our world, which is that like the

208
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,480
pendulum swings right, Like part of this is that universities

209
00:12:25,519 --> 00:12:29,159
had become like really attentive. I mean some would say

210
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,360
not even attentive enough, but like relatively attentive to issues

211
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,440
of diversity and equity and inclusion, and you know, creating

212
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,200
these offices making sure that like first generation students felt welcomed,

213
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,919
and you know, are we creating scholarships to get you know,

214
00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:47,919
kids from underprivileged backgrounds into universities, Like some of that

215
00:12:48,039 --> 00:12:53,080
is like groups to support people like from underrepresented races

216
00:12:53,159 --> 00:12:57,440
on campus, Like how much of this is universities are

217
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,080
always a hotbed of liberalism because they're you know, that's

218
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,519
what they are. And how much of this is like

219
00:13:02,799 --> 00:13:06,639
a counterweight to you know, some years of what someon

220
00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:08,200
would say is like progress.

221
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's it was interesting to see,

222
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,840
how you know, twenty twenty, we saw all of these

223
00:13:15,879 --> 00:13:22,919
student protests on campus after George Floyd's murder, demanding more

224
00:13:23,159 --> 00:13:28,919
support and resources for diverse students, more conversations about inequity

225
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,919
and how race and racism impacts certain groups differently. And

226
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,039
then the next year we have a bill with the

227
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,679
Critical Race Theory Band that reframes and like limits how

228
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,240
we can talk about these things.

229
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,600
Speaker 1: So I even.

230
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,559
Speaker 3: Back then felt like there was a this was a

231
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,399
clear pendulum shift, and we've just kind of continued to

232
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,960
see it swinging in one direction more and more, you know,

233
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,320
I think, so, yeah, I definitely think that's a huge.

234
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 1: Part of this, which brings us a beautiful segue to

235
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,279
a more recent set of protests that I want to

236
00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:08,960
talk about because I really do feel like that's animating

237
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,480
a lot of what we're seeing this legislative session. Kate

238
00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:14,679
tell us a little bit about for anyone who missed

239
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,600
this also protests last year, and actually Kate did is

240
00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,919
on maternity. It was very weird to watch from my couch,

241
00:14:23,159 --> 00:14:26,120
but as someone who watched this unfold like our audience,

242
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,559
did you know recap for us these these protests.

243
00:14:30,039 --> 00:14:34,559
Speaker 3: So between you know, the inciting event on October seventh

244
00:14:34,559 --> 00:14:39,080
that kicked off this war in Gaza and the spring

245
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,759
of twenty twenty four, we saw like an increase escalation

246
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:47,000
on college campuses as conversations about the war kind of

247
00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:49,840
started to bubble up. And we saw that at UT especially,

248
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,440
there were instances of like vandalism on campus against Jewish

249
00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:59,440
students or Jewish student groups, and there were students who

250
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,519
were Palestinian who felt like they were not protect being

251
00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:07,519
protected by the university, and there were comments being made

252
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,399
on campus, and we saw this like like bubbling up,

253
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,879
bubbling up, and then in the spring around the country,

254
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:20,240
these protests started to call for universities to divest there

255
00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:23,360
from companies that were supporting Israel, and that was the

256
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:32,919
demand at UT. Around late April, the president. Former president

257
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,080
Jay Hartzel called in DPS to kind of handle some

258
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,399
of these protests, and that's they escalated and we started

259
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,120
seeing students getting arrested on campus for the protests, which

260
00:15:45,399 --> 00:15:50,159
sparked a huge blowback of not just First Amendment violations,

261
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:55,440
but you know, creat bringing DPS into what was peaceful protesting.

262
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,840
According to the students and faculty on campus felt like

263
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:04,879
it was creating like an unnecessary and unsafe situation on campus.

264
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,360
Petitions called for Hartzel to be removed. There was criticism

265
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,320
across the board from He was panned from students and

266
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,519
faculty with his reaction. Meanwhile, the governor was fully in

267
00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:21,000
support of what he was doing. Republican lawmakers across the

268
00:16:21,039 --> 00:16:24,960
state showed support for him. Again, there was a second

269
00:16:25,519 --> 00:16:28,919
protest that was more of an encampment. Students pitched tense

270
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,279
and refused to leave that was seen as trespassing, and

271
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,440
there was another wave of arrests and the kind of

272
00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:42,080
tensions that come really continued throughout the spring semester. Some

273
00:16:42,159 --> 00:16:45,080
lawsuits have been filed by students saying that their free

274
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,960
speech rights were violated by the university. Some of those

275
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,799
are ongoing. I think one was recently filed by some students,

276
00:16:53,039 --> 00:16:57,279
so the kind of ripple effects continue, But that really

277
00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:00,799
the spring was when I reached kind of tipping point

278
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,440
in terms of real action. And UT was one of

279
00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:08,160
many schools around the country where this was playing out.

280
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 1: Right, Like, if I think this like difference between UT

281
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,839
and say like Columbia University, where this was also happening,

282
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,279
is like U T I presume, right, was like engaged

283
00:17:17,279 --> 00:17:20,519
in a many facets trying to portray like we are

284
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,640
not a hotbed of liberal activity. We're just a university

285
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,559
where we all just do research and teach some kids.

286
00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:28,920
And it's like, oh, this was like the last thing.

287
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,920
Probably someone like Jay Hartzel, you know, wanted to have

288
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,119
to like go sell to the governor, the legislature.

289
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he and like as I was not

290
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,799
fully covering this as much as other reporters were at

291
00:17:43,839 --> 00:17:46,920
the time, but I mean he was pretty animant right

292
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,519
away that they were not going to put up with

293
00:17:49,799 --> 00:17:53,039
disruptions on campus. And that was really the line that

294
00:17:53,079 --> 00:17:56,119
a lot of schools that ended up arresting students drew

295
00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,559
was this is a disruption. You know, we are supportive

296
00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:02,920
of peaceful protesting, but We're not going to be supportive

297
00:18:03,079 --> 00:18:07,079
of disruptions on campus that interfere with people's ability to learn.

298
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,319
That was their position, and I think and Hertzel stood

299
00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:16,359
by that throughout, even though you know, faculty and students

300
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,400
felt very differently.

301
00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 1: Jessica, this has certainly come up this legislative session. It's

302
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,119
clear certainly the lawmakers who sort of control or who

303
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:28,559
you know, represent the majority of the House and the Senate,

304
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:31,000
we're not thrilled by these protests. Talk a little bit

305
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,640
about how this has shown up in legislation.

306
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,079
Speaker 2: Well, I think the bill that I was talking about

307
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,119
SB thirty seven is partly in response to that. There

308
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,119
was a misconception by some that like the Faculty Senate

309
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,079
at U T Austin took a vote of no confidence,

310
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,160
but it was a separate group. I think it was

311
00:18:54,200 --> 00:19:03,200
the American Association of University Professors. So that's one thing.

312
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,279
One part of that bill that I didn't mention is

313
00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:10,319
that like it would eliminate these faculty senates which advise

314
00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:17,559
universities on academic matters, It would eliminate them unless the

315
00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:21,640
Board of Regents, I guess blesses them to continue, and

316
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,799
it would. They've always been advisory, but it puts more

317
00:19:24,839 --> 00:19:28,440
restrictions on them. They can't If this bill were to pass,

318
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,480
they wouldn't be able to issue any sort of public

319
00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:35,519
statement or get involved in any political advocacy. Right now,

320
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,039
a lot of faculty senates. The way that they work

321
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,559
is members are elected by other faculty members. This would

322
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,160
like limit the number how many people can be on

323
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,599
the faculty Senate, and like half of the body would

324
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,599
be appointed by the president of the university, so giving

325
00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:58,160
the administration a lot more power. Some other bills that

326
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:04,440
have come up would restrict protesting on campuses, and they've

327
00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:09,079
made pretty good progress in the legislator legislature so far.

328
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:16,480
Senator Creighton again has a bill that would basically walk

329
00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:22,200
back a lot of the free speech protections that Texas

330
00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:25,960
enshrined into law like six years ago, and give the

331
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,240
governing board the power to say which areas of campus

332
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:37,400
people can protest. It would also limit like the use

333
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,480
of microphones and sounds to certain hours of the day,

334
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,200
protesting overnight, erecting encampments or even during the last two

335
00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:51,759
weeks of the semester would not be allowed, and also

336
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,519
like wearing masks to disguise yourself so it has a

337
00:20:55,519 --> 00:20:59,640
lot of free speech advocates up in arms. They point

338
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,640
out that like back in twenty eighteen, the legislature passed

339
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:10,160
a bill to instructing college campuses to make all outdoor

340
00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:14,240
common areas traditional public forums, and that was in reaction

341
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:25,759
to conservative speakers being canceled at universities and or disrupted. Yeah,

342
00:21:25,319 --> 00:21:30,480
so yeah, the senator who authored that bill, Senator Huffman,

343
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:36,079
she voted for Creighton's bill. So it's kind of interesting.

344
00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:41,119
And then we've also seen a lot of concern about

345
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,799
a rise in anti semitism on campus. And so one

346
00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:48,680
bill that has passed both chambers and is being sent

347
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,680
to the governor would require k through twelve schools and

348
00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:57,039
public universities and colleges to use a definition of anti

349
00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:04,160
semitism that is by the well, I'm forgetting the name,

350
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:09,039
but it's a controversial definition. A lot of a lot

351
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:12,960
of governmental entities use it. But the reason it's controversial

352
00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:19,079
is because it some examples that it gives as antisemitic

353
00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:26,640
would be like equating like political speech, so like criticism

354
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:32,160
of Israel. People are concerned that might be considered anti semitic.

355
00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 3: So what I find interesting about these protests, like universities

356
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,039
have always been like places of major conflict and protests

357
00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:44,359
in American history. Think Vietnam War, you think the apartheid

358
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,599
in South Africa in the nineties. Usually, like the students

359
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,799
who are protesting are kind of all on the same

360
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,519
side or on the same page in terms of what

361
00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:57,640
they are protesting against. And with this we have like

362
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,759
two competing groups of students saying, like, you know, students

363
00:23:01,759 --> 00:23:08,480
who are maybe anti Zionist or pro Palestine are you know,

364
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:11,319
have this one position about Israel and what they are

365
00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:13,680
doing there. And then you have students on the other

366
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,720
side saying, like the language you're using in these protests

367
00:23:16,759 --> 00:23:18,599
is making me feel unsafe on campus.

368
00:23:18,799 --> 00:23:20,559
Speaker 1: And so it's a it's.

369
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 3: A kind of nuanced line that universities have to walk

370
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,279
to kind of like figure out how to navigate students

371
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,880
fighting with each other, not just like protesting something at

372
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,640
that like to them or to a global conflict.

373
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,599
Speaker 1: Right, it's probably most I you're right, and that of

374
00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:40,839
those examples you gave, it probably most similar to like apartheid,

375
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,319
where it's like another country is having a problem, But

376
00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:48,039
there probably were not that many like South African students

377
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:49,759
like the Vietnam War, Like I think there were a

378
00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:54,440
lot of clashes between like returning soldiers and like you know,

379
00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:57,119
like ROTC students and things like that. But even then

380
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,279
it was like the US government, you know, I mean,

381
00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:04,440
like you were sort of protesting our country's policies versus

382
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,279
like I mean the I'm gonna say something, and I

383
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,799
don't just jump to disagree with me. The Middle East

384
00:24:10,839 --> 00:24:13,559
thing is really complicated and like you know where the

385
00:24:13,599 --> 00:24:16,160
lines fall. I think it's not been like we like

386
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,240
to put everything in America on like these two very

387
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,759
like left right things, and like what's happening there sort

388
00:24:21,759 --> 00:24:26,240
of transcends like the easy definitions right right. And also like.

389
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:29,759
Speaker 3: I just lost my train of thought listening to your

390
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,519
very insightful comment.

391
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: Thank you.

392
00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:38,279
Speaker 1: I stunned into silence. Uh keep going, I will. All

393
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,359
was gonna say is like I'm curious you guys. Your

394
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,160
personal experience is like I often feel like I feel

395
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,559
like I went to college in like the one four

396
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,000
year period that no one was protesting anything like post

397
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,839
Occupy Wall Street. The main I went to college in DC.

398
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,559
We watch a lot of documentaries about Coney that was

399
00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:55,920
a huge thing. We went to the White House because

400
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,559
we killed Osama bin Laden. Yep. I literally didn't even

401
00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:01,720
have like a pre cidential election in that four years,

402
00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:06,480
but not central. We had the re election of Barack Obama,

403
00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:08,240
which was like not that exciting because I had the

404
00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:10,759
first election. You had the first were there? Did you

405
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:14,000
guys have like big flash points? No?

406
00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 3: I mean I went to school Occupy I went to

407
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,559
school in New York, so Occupy Wall Street was happening,

408
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,440
but like I was, it was separate and like I

409
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,319
had friends who would go down there, but it was

410
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,480
like not in like ingrained in our culture or on

411
00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:29,640
campus in the same way.

412
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:30,599
Speaker 1: So I would agree.

413
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I think Obama's presidency, his election was largely

414
00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:42,920
panned as like positive on campus, and I there was

415
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,759
not a ton of like protesting about like Obama care

416
00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:48,839
you know what, We're like big like a protests that.

417
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:51,079
Speaker 1: Were happening party, but that certainly wasn't happening on college

418
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,440
even like conservative college students. That was much more of

419
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,480
like a taxpayer demographic, right, Jessica, how about you?

420
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember anything. I to sam Houston State

421
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:04,920
in Texas, and all I can remember is like the

422
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,880
typical pastor coming on campus and like yelling at us

423
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,880
for sinning. Yeah, and students like engaging.

424
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, people got signed.

425
00:26:14,759 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: Students engaging with them and getting into I don't know,

426
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,880
our verbal arguments.

427
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,279
Speaker 1: It's kind of boring. I mean, I know.

428
00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:25,079
Speaker 3: I would say the biggest reaction was like that we

429
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,720
saw on campus was Osama and getting killed.

430
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that.

431
00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: That was I do remember that.

432
00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:34,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, huge moment. We were like in the library and

433
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:37,119
like left our stuff and ran into the White House.

434
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,319
You were like, we didn't do it.

435
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: I was working for the student newspapers, so I went

436
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,880
around and like asked people, what do you think about the.

437
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like we've lived in such an era

438
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:53,319
of protests, you know, like you know, starting with like Ferguson,

439
00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:56,279
which was like the year I graduated, straight up to like,

440
00:26:56,599 --> 00:26:57,640
I mean, it feels like it's been a lot of

441
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,519
protests since I left college. Oh, this is what I

442
00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:00,119
was going to say.

443
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 3: So we're talking about like with the global conflict and

444
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,599
protesting about a global conflict, and like, yes, there is demand.

445
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,519
The students have demand for the universities to direct they've

446
00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:12,799
like grounded it in, but the universities largely have been

447
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:14,799
like no, I mean we're not going to do that.

448
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,720
And it was different than you know, with the protesting

449
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,000
after George Floyd, where students kind of like had real

450
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,400
tangible demands that universities were really kind of willing to

451
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,359
meet and said, Okay, we can work with you on

452
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,039
building out offices to maybe handle some of these concerns,

453
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,000
or having more dialogues on campus, Like there was an

454
00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:38,200
academic way to kind of approach some of these student

455
00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:42,440
demands and have a university. You love a dialogue, love

456
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,799
a conversation, they love a committee to talk about things.

457
00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:48,759
So it was like they were able to kind of

458
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,680
like respond or seem to respond. But it's wild that

459
00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:56,720
you know, four years later, much of that is not

460
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,680
even has been dismantled a lot in many ways.

461
00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean such a I mean the pen I

462
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,119
do think in some ways the pendulum swings are getting fighter.

463
00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:07,599
Like we talked I mean we talked about this with

464
00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:10,119
like THHC for example, and bail reformed bail. I mean

465
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,440
a lot of the bail stuff came out of you know,

466
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:16,079
that same era of like we're over criminalizing certain groups,

467
00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:18,400
Like let's look at this from like a diversity standpoint,

468
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,680
and now it's like absolutely not. You know, the pendulum

469
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,119
has swung in the other direction and.

470
00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:27,079
Speaker 3: The protest, I mean, it's not just in the ledge

471
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:30,960
in terms of like the response. We're saying the Trump administration,

472
00:28:31,079 --> 00:28:33,640
so many of its executive orders and decisions it's made

473
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:39,680
about deportations and federal funding to cuts to universities all

474
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,680
comes back to, you know, a response to what we

475
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:43,519
saw last year.

476
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,119
Speaker 1: So the tale is still.

477
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 3: Much longer than just even what's happening down the street

478
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,039
from us.

479
00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: They're trying to crack down the Trump administration on what

480
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,720
they see as like university's failure to protect Jewish students,

481
00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:58,440
and they're like opportunities to learn.

482
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: Which I think, you know, as we've talked about, like

483
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,039
I think there, you know, are like legitimate concerns there,

484
00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:05,759
and also I think that you know, fits into sort

485
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:10,559
of like this wider agenda that predated you know, certainly

486
00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:13,759
these protests certainly pre dated October seventh, about like how

487
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:16,119
can we sort of exert more control over what students

488
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:19,640
are taught. Let's take a quick break, and we want

489
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,400
to thank our sponsors, the Texas Tribune membership program, The

490
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,519
Texas Tribune Spring Drive ends this week. We're asking for

491
00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:30,400
five hundred Texans to take action for independent journalism. Will

492
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,880
you be one of them? Donate now at Texastribune dot

493
00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:37,240
org slash donate and say you heard it on the

494
00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:39,920
trib cast, because then I get tagged in our little

495
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:45,079
donations channel and it makes my day. So I want

496
00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:47,039
to talk about it. We've talked about like so much

497
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,119
tumult sort of facing these universities, so perhaps it's unsurprising

498
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:59,119
that we're also seeing university leaders flee these jobs. I

499
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,240
want to start by talking about like all of these

500
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:03,480
changes at the top of these universities. Let's start with

501
00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:09,319
Texas A and M and longtime system chancellor John Sharp

502
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,559
is retiring at the end of June after fourteen years

503
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:22,119
leading the largest university system, the second largest university system. Kate,

504
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,920
I want you to talk about about John Sharp because

505
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,279
he is, you know, more than just a university chancellor,

506
00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:31,640
university system chancellor. He's this larger than life political character.

507
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,960
You profiled him last year, two years ago, two years ago,

508
00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:40,400
Kate profiled him over some extended period of time a

509
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,680
while ago. Tell us a little bit about like who

510
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,240
is John Sharp and what role did he play running

511
00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:46,000
this system?

512
00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: Sure?

513
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: So sharp started out he was an Aggie. He got

514
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,319
his undergrad there.

515
00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:53,759
Speaker 1: He then came.

516
00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: To the Capitol and then has basically served in like

517
00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:02,160
every possible position that you could in state government. He

518
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,000
was the comptroller, He served in the House and the Senate.

519
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:08,119
He was on the Railroad Commission, over like seeing oil

520
00:31:08,119 --> 00:31:11,359
and gas industry in the state. He tried to run

521
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,440
for lieutenant governor. That did not go well. He kind

522
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,079
of came up. He was a Democrat, and so he

523
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,839
ran twice and lost both times. Kind of at the

524
00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:27,079
point where Texas stopped electing Democrats, went into the private sector,

525
00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:31,039
and then was you know, pulled back into public service

526
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,400
to run his you know alma mater A and M

527
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:42,240
and over the neck last fourteen years he has really

528
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,519
transformed the A and M system. I mean he like

529
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,920
you know, he will if you ask him, take off

530
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,400
all of his accomplishments. You know. He bought a law

531
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,759
school that's now like twenty second in the nation. He

532
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:02,119
increased the university systems research portfolio to be like on

533
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,359
par and even surpass ut U T at some in

534
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,240
some you know, measurements. He's brought all of this federal

535
00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:13,000
research for to this campus he built out in College

536
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,440
Station called the Relis Campus that he's very proud of.

537
00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:19,000
There's a lot of like Department of Defense kind of

538
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:20,039
work out there.

539
00:32:21,319 --> 00:32:22,759
Speaker 1: That is just like exploding.

540
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,039
Speaker 3: He helped get A and M a national laboratory at

541
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:31,440
the Los Alamos National Lab that he that they're running

542
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,519
with another university. So he's just like put he really

543
00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:39,799
planted a flag for the A and M system I

544
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:43,000
think to like be taken seriously as a system in

545
00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:45,440
the state. I mean, like I really wish Matthew was

546
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,640
here to talk about this, but like Aggies have long

547
00:32:49,759 --> 00:32:52,880
had a chip on their shoulder about the school down

548
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:53,279
the street.

549
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: Ut that's why Matthew wouldn't come.

550
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,319
Speaker 3: Case in point, and I was reading a profile that

551
00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:03,119
the student newspaper did it at A and M about

552
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:06,799
Sharp and his you know, impending retirement, and a lot

553
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:11,359
of people talked about just like the pride that Sharp

554
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,519
has been able to instill in Aggies, to be able

555
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:19,119
to like make the system be competitive and show just

556
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:25,480
like the potential for what that school can do. And

557
00:33:26,079 --> 00:33:28,319
he you know, I listed all these things that he did,

558
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:30,400
but like a lot of it is vibes too, Like

559
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,839
he has really.

560
00:33:33,359 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: Just infused in energy in the school.

561
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,559
Speaker 3: It's you know, the school is like A and M

562
00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:40,440
flagship and college station is like eighty thousand students now,

563
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,000
it's an insanely large school. He's has you know, he

564
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:46,799
keeps always says he tries to like make sure that

565
00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:50,920
every Texas family has an Aggie in the family. So

566
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,440
he's just like and it's I think it is been

567
00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:57,480
a success and will be part of his legacy that

568
00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:01,200
he helped to elevate the statue of the university to

569
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:04,680
not just be like the you know, younger sibling of

570
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:04,960
U T.

571
00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: Austin. I just think that's so important because what A

572
00:34:08,519 --> 00:34:11,880
and M crads really needed was like more pride in

573
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,039
their institution. Like it was like, oh, just even get

574
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:18,880
them to admit they went there, was like, oh yeah,

575
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,519
I know. I mean, the ring is dragging on you.

576
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,239
In that fantastic summation of John Sharp's life and career,

577
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,320
you left out my single favorite detail about him, which

578
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,519
is who was his college roommate at Texas A and

579
00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:35,360
it Rick Perry, Rick Perry, which I just love and

580
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,280
they have like all kinds of crazy stories. I recommend

581
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,599
reading Kate's profile of him because it involves some riantics

582
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:46,519
antics between John Sharp and former Governor Rick Perry.

583
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 3: I thought your favorite detail was going to be how

584
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,239
he proposed to his second wife on stage at a

585
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,920
Robert Garrel Keene show on campus a few years ago,

586
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,800
which was my favorite detail about him.

587
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,039
Speaker 1: Yes, I just think if you're going to be the

588
00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:01,880
transfer of university, you get to propose on stage at

589
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:09,119
a you know, university hosted or university a concert there. Jessica,

590
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,960
you have been writing about Sharp's replacement. He's comptroller Glenn Hagar,

591
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:17,519
also unsurprisingly an A and M alum sort of what

592
00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:19,199
do we know about him? And more importantly like the

593
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,360
system he stands to inherit? What's the job, what's the

594
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:24,360
task awaiting him?

595
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,519
Speaker 2: Well, I think the climate is very different for higher

596
00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:34,199
education now. I mean I think so that's something he's

597
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,400
gonna have to a tightrope he's going to have to walk.

598
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,079
But what I know about Hagar is like he's obviously

599
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:45,800
a grad of went to undergrad at Texas A and M.

600
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:50,599
He has a very similar kind of like trajectory to

601
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,480
Sharp in that he also served in the Senate and

602
00:35:55,679 --> 00:36:03,880
became comptroller or he is controller now. Notably, like during

603
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,679
his time in the legislature, he authored a bill that

604
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,719
added restrictions to abortions before Roe Vwaid and that kind

605
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,599
of launched the Wendy Davis that.

606
00:36:13,639 --> 00:36:14,159
Speaker 1: Was his bill.

607
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had no idea. Yeah, So, so he is conservative,

608
00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:23,719
he's a Republican. I'm not really sure how he will

609
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,119
land on some of the ideological issues, but in the

610
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:33,440
past he's used his office to He's infused some conservative

611
00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:39,840
politicking into his office as comptroller, like he threatened to

612
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:47,119
sanction Harris County for cutting their law enforcement budget. So

613
00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:50,159
and when he ran for reelection in twenty twenty two,

614
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,239
he said that he was like a conservative family man.

615
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,159
Some ideological issues that have come up recently are the

616
00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:04,360
Board of Regents past a ban on drag show performances

617
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:10,760
and their special events venues, and that's drawn Chancellor Sharp

618
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,360
and President Mark Welsh into like a First Amendment lawsuit.

619
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,320
So it'll be interesting to see how he handles situations

620
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:22,239
like that going forward.

621
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: Definitely, because I think like he's been pretty popular. It's

622
00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:29,280
a controller. It's like not that hard to be a

623
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,280
popular guy in charge of the money when the yes,

624
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,639
when you know, I do think he probably just from

625
00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:38,199
like the little you know times i've seen him speak

626
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,079
or whatever. I think he's got like the Vibes Chancellor

627
00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:43,360
thing going. But he's definitely inheriting like a he's walk

628
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,360
a different type rope than John Sharp.

629
00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think we saw that with Sharp in

630
00:37:47,519 --> 00:37:51,039
the last few years, that like the kind of chasm

631
00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:54,639
was widening, Like he's always been good at He's like

632
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:56,840
a consensus guy, and he's always been good at building

633
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,760
consensus and getting what he needs to get done, and

634
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,199
you know, slapping you on the back and you know,

635
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,639
cracking a joke and making his he's a deal maker.

636
00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:10,599
I think consensus is like a harder game these days

637
00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:14,599
in the Capitol. I think we saw, you know, some

638
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,559
of the controversies that we reported on here at A

639
00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:22,599
and M about the Kathleen McElroy situation and the politics

640
00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:25,199
that went on behind the scenes with the watering down

641
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,920
of her job and then the professor who was put

642
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,599
under investigation for some comments she made about Dan Patrick,

643
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:37,280
and how Sharp kind of tried to use that, like

644
00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:40,719
use his kind of consensus building, trying to please everyone

645
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,159
way to handle that and it backfired kind of showing

646
00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:50,000
that like he he was starting to struggle with limitations

647
00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:54,079
to vibes chancellor, right, And I think, you know, he

648
00:38:54,199 --> 00:38:57,000
was always kind of going to retire. I don't think

649
00:38:57,199 --> 00:38:59,360
I think it made it easier to make that decision

650
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,239
with all of you know, becoming a difficult drum a

651
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,880
more difficult job at the Capitol.

652
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: But you know, he's also.

653
00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: These are not like lifetime appointments for a reason.

654
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: And I think like part of Hager's appeal to the

655
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,039
board when they chose him was like he knows the

656
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:16,679
capital and that's hugely important. I mean, there were some

657
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,639
like really strong academics in that mix of candidates for

658
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,639
the job, but being an aggie was number one, and

659
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,960
then like being able to navigate the halls of the

660
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,800
capital was a crucial number two. Like, you know, we

661
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,559
talk all about the kind of social controversies and debates

662
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:39,480
that happened within Higher Ed and the bills that go on,

663
00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:42,559
but it's just so much of what the universities do

664
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:44,599
with the Capitol has to do with money and getting

665
00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:47,559
money for your universities and getting enough for your pet

666
00:39:47,599 --> 00:39:50,159
projects and being able to keep the lights on. And

667
00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:53,079
that's you know, most of the conversations that are happening

668
00:39:53,519 --> 00:39:57,360
with these universities. So having someone who understands how the

669
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,599
money works is in some ways the most import.

670
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: Thing, Right, I want to talk I want to give

671
00:40:03,519 --> 00:40:07,000
equal time will shrift to the University of Texas. But

672
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:09,599
you know, we've got two major changes happening there we

673
00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:11,639
can sort of talk about, I think in conjunction with

674
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:14,880
each other. Number One, we've got the departure of their

675
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,280
system Chancellor JB. Milliken, who's going to uh California there,

676
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,159
who's gone to Texas there, California and run the Universey

677
00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:27,239
of California system. And then h U T Austin President

678
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:32,400
Jay Hartzel, who is going to Austin there Dallas and

679
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:38,320
run SMU Jessica sort of what do these two shifts

680
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,440
mean for the UT system? Are we surprised that they're

681
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,800
kind of happening in the same neighborhood to each other.

682
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,079
Speaker 2: Like, are we surprised that they're happening at the same

683
00:40:50,119 --> 00:40:51,079
time Texas A.

684
00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: And m oh any of it? Yeah? Well, like me, like.

685
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,159
Speaker 2: Kate said, the an M was planned. I think these

686
00:40:58,159 --> 00:41:02,119
were both pretty sudden. These were pretty sudden. I remember

687
00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:05,679
I was like the first day on higher ed like

688
00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:09,119
I had taken like a week off in between because

689
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:13,400
I got really sick over the Christmas break playing with

690
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,400
little kids gave me all their germs, and I remember

691
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,719
we were going to have our meeting to talk about

692
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,800
covering the legislature, and I was like, good, I need

693
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,679
to be there because I know my plans were disrupted.

694
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:30,760
But yeah, it was sudden. I think the higher experts

695
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,039
that I've talked to elsewhere in the country that just

696
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:39,679
said it's indicative of like how political this job has become,

697
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,360
and like thorny, and like they were not surprised that

698
00:41:44,519 --> 00:41:49,920
Hartzel would choose to go to a private university, which

699
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,960
it also became an our one institution this year, so

700
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:58,760
it's not like some no name place. So yeah, I

701
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,920
think that's what it indicates that there's like the interference

702
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,639
from lawmakers is making the job more difficult.

703
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: Kate take us home. I mean, kind of what can

704
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,920
we make of all of this, you know, all like

705
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:15,079
we're going to leave this legislative session with at least

706
00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:18,159
some changes TVD on exactly what they will be to

707
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,559
sort of how the university's function and the power of

708
00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:24,760
the state has over them. We are at this like

709
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,800
heightened moment of after the protests of attention on what

710
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,519
college students do, how free speech works, and we're going

711
00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:33,280
to have basically all new leadership at all the major universities.

712
00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:37,599
What does the next chapter of higher ed look like?

713
00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:42,599
Speaker 2: Yes, please tell me, h crap.

714
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:45,679
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I think, like, I think

715
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:46,119
part of.

716
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:53,519
Speaker 3: It will depend on who becomes like the permanent and

717
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:55,880
it's just thinking about ut right now. But whoever just

718
00:42:56,039 --> 00:42:58,960
like becomes the permanent leaders in the system and the

719
00:42:59,199 --> 00:43:02,840
University of Tech at Austin, Like how they decide to

720
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,159
take the message that they've gotten from the legislature and

721
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,320
from the Trump administration and are they going to go

722
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,320
along with it or are they going to push back?

723
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,960
I mean, is there a breaking point for universities in

724
00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:20,239
terms of how far they're willing to go to work

725
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,079
with some of the challenges have been brought up by

726
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:30,000
the Trump administration in terms of cutting funding or restricting

727
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:33,639
curriculum on campus and things like that, Like how far

728
00:43:33,679 --> 00:43:36,760
are they willing to go? You know, we saw a

729
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,719
little bit of pushback from Harvard in their situation, a

730
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,719
very different situation, but like in like, you know, where

731
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,440
is the line going to be drawn for some of

732
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,239
these universities or is this like a new more you know,

733
00:43:51,519 --> 00:43:55,039
UTA especially gets the reputation of being the liberal bastion

734
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,639
in in a in a very conservative state, and I

735
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:01,239
think A and M kind of benefits from the conservative

736
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,719
reputation it has in that way that.

737
00:44:03,639 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: A lot of that falls on UT.

738
00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: But like, are we seeing a rewriting of UT and

739
00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:13,480
like the kind of school that it's going to be

740
00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:15,840
in the future in terms of who the new leaders

741
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,719
might be in terms of how they decide to implement

742
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,519
these laws, and like how satisfied are the is the

743
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:25,760
legislature going to be? Are they going to feel like

744
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,360
we've done We've done what we needed to do. We

745
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,079
have leaders in place who are going to implement and

746
00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:35,199
make sure that like students are being taught what they

747
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,440
need to and that the you know, Marxist professors stay

748
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,559
in line. Or are we coming back in twenty twenty

749
00:44:42,599 --> 00:44:45,480
seven with a whole new round way like batch of

750
00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:48,239
ideas of how we can further restrict what's going on.

751
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,039
So I think TBD, which I know is not what

752
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:53,960
you asked, but well.

753
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,159
Speaker 1: We will have to leave it there for now. But

754
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,519
I do think, you know, we'll be covering all of this,

755
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:00,280
you both will be in Jessica, especially so if you

756
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,079
guys want to follow along even on what these bills

757
00:45:02,119 --> 00:45:07,360
do this session. Texastribune dot org. You can find all

758
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,960
episodes of the Tribcast on YouTube or wherever you find

759
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,679
your podcasts. Be sure to like, subscribe, and share the

760
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,079
podcast on all of your platforms. If you'd like to

761
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:16,639
get in touch with us, you can reach us at

762
00:45:16,639 --> 00:45:20,960
Tribcast at Texastribune dot org. We want to thank today's sponsors,

763
00:45:21,039 --> 00:45:24,280
the Texas Tribune Membership Program. You can donate now at

764
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:29,320
Texastribune dot org slash donate. Our producers are Robovla and

765
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,760
Chris Spobada. Our theme music is composed by Rob. Thank

766
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,119
you to both of our guests for being here and

767
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:36,559
we will see you next week