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Speaker 2: You are now listening to true Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening, Golden State Killer, East Area Rapist, Original Nightstalker,
Speaker 4: the Salia Ransacker, and Moore. The story of the Golden
Speaker 4: State Killers began? Who else was he? As he traveled
Speaker 4: through time?
Speaker 7: Was he?
Speaker 4: Is he? The Zodiac killer who terrorized us in the
Speaker 4: nineteen sixties and who sits in the Sacramento County jail
Speaker 4: awaiting trial. And Penn presents evidence of other monikers that
Speaker 4: belonged to this man spanning the almost six decades the
Speaker 4: killer roam the state of California. The career impossible monikers
Speaker 4: for the same man nineteen sixty to twenty eighteen. This
Speaker 4: is the true story of how such a man remained
Speaker 4: free all of those years. This is the true story
Speaker 4: of the man's patterns and attacks from the beginning until
Speaker 4: the end. The story continues. The most prolific serial criminal
Speaker 4: in California history, he could be the most prolific serial
Speaker 4: killer ever. He could not be stopped until DNA and
Speaker 4: genetic genealogy found him What if? This is truly how
Speaker 4: the story goes, and has written about the possibilities and
Speaker 4: writes about things no one else has mentioned in the
Speaker 4: Zodiac story. The book that we're featuring this evening is
Speaker 4: What If Golden State Killer Zodiac Solve with my special
Speaker 4: guest journalist and author and Penn. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 4: and thank you very much for a green this interview
Speaker 4: and Pen, Thank you.
Speaker 7: Dan, I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Again. The story continues of one
Speaker 4: of the most fascinating cases in true crime history. First off,
Speaker 4: why this book? What if? What's the purpose of this book.
Speaker 7: To try to light on how far back the crimes
Speaker 7: of this particular man may go, and that he was
Speaker 7: an expert at evading capture and use law enforcement tactics
Speaker 7: against us, against the community, and against the people that
Speaker 7: he hurts.
Speaker 4: Very interesting. As we were going to talk about this,
Speaker 4: said that this was a common assumption that possibly once
Speaker 4: especially the Angelo was arrested for the East Area rapist,
Speaker 4: the original night Stock or Golden State Killer crimes, that
Speaker 4: especially people were saying, is there a link? Could he
Speaker 4: possibly be the Zodiac? This was not just your idea.
Speaker 4: So now from there why did you undertake to show,
Speaker 4: to prove, to state the case that they're one and
Speaker 4: the same.
Speaker 7: Well, I actually never started out to end up here.
Speaker 7: The original purpose for the book was excuse me one second.
Speaker 7: The original purpose for the book was to just try
Speaker 7: to look at what other murders the Agelo may have committed,
Speaker 7: what the patterns of attack were, what areas he was in,
Speaker 7: because now we knew. I looked at you know, where
Speaker 7: he lived, and what he was doing, what was going
Speaker 7: on in his life, what you know, what he may
Speaker 7: have done. And as you start to look into that,
Speaker 7: I mean, it goes Anybody who knows anything about serial killers,
Speaker 7: of course, knows that they didn't just happen to start
Speaker 7: killing in their thirties. They probably started committing crimes when
Speaker 7: they're fifteen, you know, when they're teens. And so you
Speaker 7: go back to like maybe nineteen sixty in his case,
Speaker 7: he was about fourteen, almost fifteen that year, and you
Speaker 7: start to see where he may have been, you know,
Speaker 7: what was going on. And as you do that, and
Speaker 7: it took quite a while really to sort of peel
Speaker 7: back all the different you know, scenarios and different opportunities
Speaker 7: he had, timelines, the geography. You start to see where
Speaker 7: in the beginning of the book I talk about the
Speaker 7: dog poisonings, which I know was talking to a gentleman
Speaker 7: about who research that in depth. And the reality is
Speaker 7: is we know that DeAngelo hated dogs, and he was
Speaker 7: arrested in seventy nine with dog repellent and a hammer.
Speaker 7: And so if you go back to the area he
Speaker 7: grew up in, what you see is a bunch of
Speaker 7: dog poisonings in the Plaster area, which is in California,
Speaker 7: northern California, and you see this pattern emerge where they're
Speaker 7: dog killing sixteen sometimes ten, huge numbers of animals being
Speaker 7: killed with strychnine, and then there'd be burglaries. And you
Speaker 7: can see that in not only that area, but in
Speaker 7: different areas that he traveled over time, there'd be a
Speaker 7: bunch of a rash of dog poisonings and then a
Speaker 7: bunch of burglaries and other types of crimes. So you
Speaker 7: can see something's going on.
Speaker 4: It's fascinating too that you did that work and followed
Speaker 4: certain areas from he was living at one point Exeter,
Speaker 4: and showed also and told also because you're a California native,
Speaker 4: tell us the advantage you have from living in California
Speaker 4: as opposed to somebody else looking at this from afar,
Speaker 4: especially because you say geography is a huge reason why
Speaker 4: he was free for all those years and is a
Speaker 4: huge element.
Speaker 7: In this story, right, Yeah, because I really do think
Speaker 7: that he was very aware of the county lines everywhere
Speaker 7: he went. He knew where the jurisdictions began and ended.
Speaker 7: He knew that he could hit in one place, travel
Speaker 7: an hour if he wanted to, and hit someplace else.
Speaker 7: I mean, there's one instance in the book where he
Speaker 7: was in one place that we can see raping somebody
Speaker 7: and drove another hour or two away, and the same
Speaker 7: thing happened within the same twelve hour period, and so
Speaker 7: you know, and of course we can't prove that it's
Speaker 7: in because nobody kept a kit rape kits or slides
Speaker 7: or any of that because of the statute of limitations.
Speaker 7: But if we did have that information, we could actually
Speaker 7: prove what his travels were, what jurisdictions he did hit
Speaker 7: in because when you archives, when you look at the archives,
Speaker 7: the historical information, you can see, you know, different patterns
Speaker 7: where he would kill dogs and move, he would you know,
Speaker 7: create all kinds of havoc and do all kinds of
Speaker 7: terrible things, and then then he'd move up the road.
Speaker 7: And this continued, you know, for decades. So that's what
Speaker 7: the pattern is. And I do have to acknowledge too
Speaker 7: that the dog poisoning articles were given to the public
Speaker 7: domain and also to a gentleman that I helped, that
Speaker 7: helped me investigate those things, and he was very instrumental
Speaker 7: in that. His name is Paulie, And I has a
Speaker 7: cheat to say that because I don't have his permission,
Speaker 7: but I call him Sam in the book. But I
Speaker 7: want to make sure he has some acknowledgment for all
Speaker 7: the hundreds and hundreds and thousands of hours that he
Speaker 7: put into this.
Speaker 4: So right, yeah, now, what was that collaboration? What else
Speaker 4: did it entail that collaboration, because you say, this is
Speaker 4: again instrumental this collaboration. So what else did this person
Speaker 4: bring to this other than just a sounding board and
Speaker 4: a fellow researcher.
Speaker 7: Well, he was looking at our news article and we
Speaker 7: were sharing information back and forth. And the reason that
Speaker 7: I think that we collaborated so well was because, in
Speaker 7: his own words, he said, you're the only one who
Speaker 7: can see what I see and I'm sure that there
Speaker 7: are other people that will be able to see it,
Speaker 7: but it needed to be told in a fashion where
Speaker 7: people are not overwhelmed with information because he couldn't have
Speaker 7: committed every crime in the state of California. He couldn't
Speaker 7: have committed every murder or rape. We know this, but
Speaker 7: we want to know which ones he did commit. So
Speaker 7: when you study a criminal in depth, there are certain
Speaker 7: ones that you absolutely know he had to have something
Speaker 7: to do with. So those kinds of things law enforcement
Speaker 7: are interested in, of course, because there are so many
Speaker 7: unsolved murders of women, especially in the state of California
Speaker 7: from nineteen sixty three on, and also couples.
Speaker 4: You provide the background that I think was new for
Speaker 4: me to read about Joseph di'angelo and the Hamilton Air
Speaker 4: Force Base and Van Nuys and Kathleen, his mother and
Speaker 4: the four children, and also him being in fulsome high school.
Speaker 4: We're well aware of that from your other two books,
Speaker 4: A Murder on His Mind and Creep among Us. Tell
Speaker 4: us about the Navy, and again he's what age when
Speaker 4: he goes into the Navy from high school, and there
Speaker 4: are personal events interactions with women that are obviously shaped
Speaker 4: what happened to him later on in his crime life.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about the background that you
Speaker 4: provide in this book that was crucial to understanding his
Speaker 4: mindset and development of this potential or this future serial killer,
Speaker 4: pardon me, and.
Speaker 7: Also the geography of where he was. Now. Everybody that
Speaker 7: studies these crimes, every sleuth that's out there already knows
Speaker 7: that he went in the Navy when he was about eighteen.
Speaker 7: He dropped out of high school to go into the Navy.
Speaker 7: And this was not too terribly long after his parents
Speaker 7: were divorced, and I think that that really was his trigger,
Speaker 7: not so much the situation with Bonnie later on, and
Speaker 7: that was a catalyst for him to act out more
Speaker 7: when Bonnie, his girlfriend that he had in nineteen seventy
Speaker 7: dropped him in nineteen seventy one. But I really think
Speaker 7: that when he really was triggered to, you know, really
Speaker 7: go after all these terrible things was when his parents
Speaker 7: were divorced and his father was stationed in the area
Speaker 7: in the Bay area, Evado and Van Nuys, And you know,
Speaker 7: he probably knew from being with his dad that area
Speaker 7: to a certain extent, And I wondered how much did
Speaker 7: he know about it? Did he go to Lake Berryessa
Speaker 7: when he was a kid. You know, he knows California.
Speaker 7: He knows California in a way that somebody who has
Speaker 7: traveled it, you know, intimately knows it. And so he knew,
Speaker 7: you know, what he could do and where he could
Speaker 7: do it, and then he would move on and he
Speaker 7: did change MS.
Speaker 4: So what's interesting, and I think we will have to
Speaker 4: talk about this later to put it in context, that
Speaker 4: you provide some startling information that really does dispel this
Speaker 4: idea that serial killers, according to profiles, can't change mos.
Speaker 4: Don't change mos. I don't think they say it. They're
Speaker 4: saying it unequivocally. They just provide that this is what
Speaker 4: the profile says. You have some startling information based on
Speaker 4: those rape kits that inadvertently you get this incredible information
Speaker 4: that certainly supports your MO theory.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and well, what's interesting about a lot of people
Speaker 7: don't think that this man could possibly have been the
Speaker 7: Zodiac because he didn't rape the women, or they think
Speaker 7: that he can't possibly be that guy because he was
Speaker 7: somewhere else. You know, they have all kinds of ideas
Speaker 7: that he can't possibly be him. And one of them
Speaker 7: is his m O and the m A that he
Speaker 7: changed over time. We know that he was by sailure Ransucker.
Speaker 7: We know that there were a lot of crimes committed
Speaker 7: even before then in the sixties in Sacramento area where
Speaker 7: he came from, in fulsome where, there were rapes and
Speaker 7: there were other things that were occurring, and he was
Speaker 7: smart enough to know when to move on. And you know,
Speaker 7: it's not a far stretch of the imagination to realize
Speaker 7: that when he got out of the Navy that he
Speaker 7: was he knew the Bay area. He you know, didn't
Speaker 7: have school yet to go get his criminal justice degree.
Speaker 7: He didn't know Bonnie yet, but he was angry, and
Speaker 7: so you know, it's not a far start of the
Speaker 7: imagination to realize that he could have started in i say,
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty three down on the beach at Lompoc and
Speaker 7: then continued on and each time you see him do
Speaker 7: something and then he leaves. So we know that in
Speaker 7: like before he went in the Navy, So in Lompoc,
Speaker 7: the crimes that were committed down there against couples killed
Speaker 7: they That was in nineteen sixty three, nineteen sixty four.
Speaker 7: All of a sudden, we see him vanish. He went
Speaker 7: in the navy, and nothing terrible happens for a while.
Speaker 7: So you can track him geographically and with the timeline.
Speaker 7: And the only thing that I don't have is DNA
Speaker 7: proof of this. What I have is you know, his
Speaker 7: uh geographical profile, his m O, his timelines, and you know,
Speaker 7: every time there's a crime committed, you find that he
Speaker 7: was available for that crime or you know, so that's
Speaker 7: you know, you just kind of follow what goes on
Speaker 7: and then figure out that you know, it really could
Speaker 7: be him. So there's there's no reason that he couldn't
Speaker 7: change his m He told the whole world when he
Speaker 7: was Zodiac. And like I said, I'm saying, alleged Zodiac,
Speaker 7: alleged Golden State killer. He you know, he's not been
Speaker 7: proven guilty in a court of law. These are these
Speaker 7: are theories and and and it's actually circumstantial evidence of
Speaker 7: him being in an area of these things happening, and
Speaker 7: there are patterns, there are clusters, and it continues over
Speaker 7: time and space, decade after decade.
Speaker 4: You provide and like I said, sorry, you provide is
Speaker 4: a woman that you say that was stocked and she
Speaker 4: provided all of this these bits of evidence, pieces of
Speaker 4: evidence eventually, but her rebuffed initially by law enforcement in
Speaker 4: the county where she was. She contacted you, you hooked
Speaker 4: her up with again, tell us the story and what
Speaker 4: this tells you and in support of your theory much
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 7: This is an anonymous woman because I don't have her
Speaker 7: permission to write her story. I don't know if she
Speaker 7: will eventually. But the thing that Deangela did in general
Speaker 7: is that he would stalk people. He would peep, he would,
Speaker 7: you know, keep showing up. There are there's evidence that
Speaker 7: in the dark and the far and murders that there
Speaker 7: was somebody that knew her had come into her place
Speaker 7: of employment. There. There was also evidence at Betty lou
Speaker 7: Jensen's house where somebody was out there peeping the gates
Speaker 7: were left open. Who does that sound like? It sounds
Speaker 7: like the Easter Airy rapist. He would peep, he would stalk,
Speaker 7: he would you know, go and leave gates open and
Speaker 7: just sort of try to terrorize people. So the patterns
Speaker 7: are really similar and or the same over and over again.
Speaker 7: So those are the things you have to look at
Speaker 7: when you're considering evidence of more monikers that he may deserve.
Speaker 7: So this particular woman did finally realize when the East
Speaker 7: Airy rapist was arrested that she actually knew him. She
Speaker 7: had never seen her stalk her. He stalked her for
Speaker 7: years and years and years and kind of followed her
Speaker 7: from one place to another and left items in her
Speaker 7: home and just terrorized her in general, would make phone calls.
Speaker 7: So this went on for you know, like twenty years
Speaker 7: or more. Actually it was until twenty seventeen at least,
Speaker 7: and she didn't realize that she actually had known him
Speaker 7: at one point as a cop. And when she saw
Speaker 7: who it was when they arrested him and said his name,
Speaker 7: she just sat down and cried. So but she had
Speaker 7: contacted me and we spoke for seven or eight months
Speaker 7: at least and discussed, you know, some of the things
Speaker 7: that went on. And people are interesting because they contact me.
Speaker 7: And like one of the other ladies who spoke in
Speaker 7: my other book, doctor Sue Barrett, she had the Easter
Speaker 7: rapists come into her home in nineteen eighty three in
Speaker 7: the attack zones in Sacramento after everyone had said that
Speaker 7: he left, and when she told her story on Facebook,
Speaker 7: she was starting to take quite a beating from people
Speaker 7: saying I don't believe anything she said. And I didn't
Speaker 7: know her from Adam, and I just said, I believe
Speaker 7: every word she says because it is totally him. And
Speaker 7: he did continue to do what he wanted to do
Speaker 7: in Sacramento after nineteen eighty when they thought he was gone,
Speaker 7: and as we know, he was sitting right there, had
Speaker 7: purchased a home just down the street. So and he
Speaker 7: sat there for the next thirty years. So he didn't stop.
Speaker 7: He never stopped anything that he was doing. He just
Speaker 7: changed it up. And if you see that pattern, and
Speaker 7: he knows what to do to get out of a
Speaker 7: place within fifteen minutes to a half hour, law enforcemental
Speaker 7: show up, takes him a while to get there. He
Speaker 7: knows how to go, how to get out, and had
Speaker 7: ton Ocket caught.
Speaker 4: So why, as many people would have, why the zodiac,
Speaker 4: Why such a dramatic change in mo O? What would
Speaker 4: be the again you just mentioned there's a reason for
Speaker 4: it to to shake up law enforcement. He is a
Speaker 4: law enforcement had graduated with a criminal justice degree, so
Speaker 4: at least he believes that he's smarter then law enforcement,
Speaker 4: and he's proved that to himself with crimes progressively from
Speaker 4: a young age on various crimes as well. So he
Speaker 4: thinks he's quite right. Yeah, he's proved, he's proved it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but why why the zodiac? And then again explain why
Speaker 4: that that? Why such a dramatic difference? Why a mask
Speaker 4: a disguise? You also talk about that you have evidence
Speaker 4: of him using disguises, which reinforces why maybe again a
Speaker 4: completely different persona.
Speaker 7: And what's interesting is he actually did use pigs, and
Speaker 7: he did use disguises, and he did change it up,
Speaker 7: and he did everything you can think of better and
Speaker 7: more than anybody else I've ever studied, and I've studied
Speaker 7: a lot of serial killers. But the reason that he
Speaker 7: you know, if in fact it's proven beyond reasonable doubt
Speaker 7: that he is also deserving of the Moniker Zodiac. One
Speaker 7: thing is he was He was able to be in
Speaker 7: that area. And people don't understand in California how close
Speaker 7: Auburn is to the Presidio for example, in San Francisco.
Speaker 7: They don't understand how he could attack and leave and
Speaker 7: go to the Lejou for instance, from Lee Kerman, It's
Speaker 7: really not that far away. He could vanish easily because
Speaker 7: he typically had some place to go, and he got
Speaker 7: the heck out of there. But the thing that happened
Speaker 7: with the Zodiac murders is that after he took out
Speaker 7: a few couples, the outlier for me was the Paul
Speaker 7: Stein murder. And after that attack, do know that someone
Speaker 7: saw him and gave a composite And so he knew
Speaker 7: that it was time to move on. And he probably
Speaker 7: was going to anyway, because he went to school after that.
Speaker 7: He came back to Auburn, went to school, got his degree,
Speaker 7: all that other stuff happened. So he knew that if
Speaker 7: somebody saw him, who cares. He was out of there.
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Speaker 7: He sets a note. He said, I shall no longer
Speaker 7: announce to anyone when I commit my murders. They shall
Speaker 7: look like routine robberies, killings of anger, and a few
Speaker 7: fake accidents, et cetera. The police shall never catch me
Speaker 7: because I have been too clever for them. And this
Speaker 7: was a communication was received. I believe it was November ninth,
Speaker 7: and the postmark was November eighth, which is ironically DeAngelo's birthday.
Speaker 7: And he was gone. And then what's to keep him
Speaker 7: from changing up his routine and that's what I think
Speaker 7: he did.
Speaker 4: You provide evidence too that there are some things that
Speaker 4: he says, there are some the way he says certain things,
Speaker 4: and sort of the the motivation seems beyond coincidence between
Speaker 4: the Zodiac and the East Area rapist, especially when he
Speaker 4: can considered the taunting and the messages. It's not exactly
Speaker 4: the same, but it seems like FuMB as you explain,
Speaker 4: from the same person, right, Yeah, some of the.
Speaker 7: Things he said about going to Mexico or maker Field,
Speaker 7: different things that he just said. He didn't take money,
Speaker 7: He just wanted to kill them. When it came to
Speaker 7: the Zodiac, and the same thing occurred with the East
Speaker 7: Airy rapist over and over again. He would say the
Speaker 7: same kind of things, Oh don't ray, I'm not going
Speaker 7: to hurt you. And then he would, you know, uh,
Speaker 7: not really steal anything of value. He would steal one
Speaker 7: earring or one, you know, one thing, a piece of jewelry.
Speaker 7: So it was consistent throughout with some of the things
Speaker 7: that he said as both all the monikers.
Speaker 4: Really you also talk about some of the things that
Speaker 4: the patterns that you noticed in terms of names that
Speaker 4: he seemed to like and seemed to again very much
Speaker 4: like the zodiac, but in a necessarily earlier incarnation of
Speaker 4: playing games. And you talk about these word games, name games.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about the patterns that you
Speaker 4: discovered regarding this.
Speaker 7: Well, what's interesting is that I've talked to the different
Speaker 7: people that I was investigating this with, and it was
Speaker 7: something that I noticed over and over, because I'm a
Speaker 7: detailed person when it comes to the street names, the
Speaker 7: names of the murder victims, and different things like that.
Speaker 7: Even the fact that when when he killed Paul's time,
Speaker 7: he asked him to take him to Maple and Washington,
Speaker 7: and then when they arrived there, he asked him to
Speaker 7: go another block up to Cherryot Street and that's where
Speaker 7: he walked away on Cherry Street after he tore the
Speaker 7: shirt from Paul Stein and some of the things that
Speaker 7: you see he was He was on the Navy ship Piedmont,
Speaker 7: and one of his attacks in Sacramento was Piedmont and
Speaker 7: Seamus and right off of Riverside, and Riverside is a
Speaker 7: connection to him geographically with his family. He liked Cherry Glenn.
Speaker 7: He attacked many times in that area. In the Sacramento area,
Speaker 7: he killed more than one Sherry Cherry Lynn, Cherry Cheryl, Charlene.
Speaker 7: There's it's over and over again in the patterns from
Speaker 7: the Zodiac and from the Easterry Rapist, original Knightstalker. The
Speaker 7: name Taylor Taylor Street Eva, Taylor Taylor's all over the
Speaker 7: place in these different wanderings. So you know there's more.
Speaker 7: I mean, Blue Rock, Blue Ravine, There's different places that
Speaker 7: he went and appeared to like to gravitate to. And
Speaker 7: I really do think one of the things that that
Speaker 7: was the game he played with himself because he thought
Speaker 7: he was smarter than everybody else and no one would
Speaker 7: figure it out and they didn't. So, yeah, you.
Speaker 4: Write about Charlene and Gerald Galago operating in Sacramento. Again,
Speaker 4: you lived in Sacramento right doing again talking about which
Speaker 4: again many serial killers talk about sex slaves, but you
Speaker 4: don't really write about this. But I'm just curious. You
Speaker 4: must have stumbled across some of this anyway. Do you
Speaker 4: really think that do you think the Lago was an
Speaker 4: influence in how D'Angelo operated, especially in regards of trying
Speaker 4: to avoid you apprehension.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think a couple things probably happened. One is
Speaker 7: that they were operating right off the Highway eighty. They're
Speaker 7: not far from where D'Angelo worked as a cop in
Speaker 7: Auburn between seventy eight and eighty, and he knew they
Speaker 7: were there. He knew they're you know, like sort of
Speaker 7: harshen his gig, as they say, so to speak, because
Speaker 7: they were that was a serial killer. And as far
Speaker 7: as law enforcement was looking at the Easterry rapist as
Speaker 7: just a rapist, and so they were totally looking for
Speaker 7: a serial killer, and that was Gerald Gallegos. So he
Speaker 7: was dumping bodies right not too far down the road
Speaker 7: and in the same areas that DiAngelo did, and so
Speaker 7: I think probably that was one of the reasons he
Speaker 7: probably kind of laid low after nineteen seventy eight because
Speaker 7: in that area because of that, And we see him
Speaker 7: stop attacking after the Maggiori murders in February of seventy eight,
Speaker 7: and then we see him off Asimus and Piedmont in
Speaker 7: seventy eight in April, and then he sort of doesn't
Speaker 7: do anything again that we can track until March of
Speaker 7: seventy nine in East Sacramento. And most people don't talk
Speaker 7: about that attack. It was almost like he left in
Speaker 7: seventy eight in April, after the composits came out after
Speaker 7: the murders of the young couple. And one of the
Speaker 7: things I thought about because he did kill couples over
Speaker 7: and over again, and I think he liked to read
Speaker 7: about his crimes. He liked to see burglaries or what
Speaker 7: things popped up in the newspaper. He also probably saw
Speaker 7: announcements for weddings, engagements and that kind of thing. And
Speaker 7: it's entirely possible in my mind that he didn't accidentally
Speaker 7: run into the Maggiori couple on February two, nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 7: He could have stalked them, he could have decided he
Speaker 7: was going to take them out the same way that
Speaker 7: some of the couples were shot in other areas over time,
Speaker 7: and it was maybe an intentional murder. So that's something
Speaker 7: that I just recently thought about, because the pattern of
Speaker 7: killing couples be a stabbing shooting. However he did it,
Speaker 7: that was one of the things that he did do.
Speaker 7: I mean, this couple's out walking in the dark walking
Speaker 7: their dog. How is it they just accidentally run into
Speaker 7: this guy? So I think that there might be more
Speaker 7: to that story.
Speaker 4: Well, you provide some interesting information too with the Bonnie
Speaker 4: Cowell and then you talk about an Arson, so tell
Speaker 4: us about that. This goes way back. So and when
Speaker 4: you also talked about you said he was angry, but
Speaker 4: angry about what.
Speaker 7: Well, in nineteen seventy nine, as we know, he was
Speaker 7: arrested in the areas of Attack off of Greenback in
Speaker 7: Citrus Heights area, Sacramento County for feeling at allegedly feeling
Speaker 7: and then that day they had the time to the chair,
Speaker 7: that's how the story is, to wait for law enforcement. Well,
Speaker 7: they didn't arrest him. All this time, I had thought
Speaker 7: they actually arrested him, took him down town, whatever. And
Speaker 7: I read some more about that, and I realized that
Speaker 7: they just cited him. There was a citation and they
Speaker 7: let him go. And so I thought there's got to
Speaker 7: be something where he was really angry that day that night,
Speaker 7: because he was arrested for shoplifting, he had to be
Speaker 7: in a huge rage. And as I was reading some
Speaker 7: archived information about a particular Arson, I was looking for
Speaker 7: that date, which was in July of nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 7: and that night of that day that he was arrested,
Speaker 7: we find him. You know, again, this is all speculation
Speaker 7: because I cannot prove an Arson, and I cannot prove
Speaker 7: that this was him. But here's what happened. There was
Speaker 7: a home that was burglarized. First after it they tried
Speaker 7: to burn it down. They could see that there were
Speaker 7: where the things that had been removed had been. They
Speaker 7: could see that somebody took things. And what happened was
Speaker 7: this house was actually burned to the ground. And it
Speaker 7: was in Penren, California. Now, anybody who's from here, that
Speaker 7: Penren is just down the highway from Auburn, California, which
Speaker 7: is not far from where DiAngelo lived and worked. And
Speaker 7: this house burned to the ground, and it was on
Speaker 7: the corner of Calwell Street. And Bonnie Calwell, as we know,
Speaker 7: was one of the people in this story. And so
Speaker 7: I found that interesting that that was a street name
Speaker 7: and that was where her parents lived in Penrid. It
Speaker 7: seems like too much of a coincidence to me.
Speaker 4: So is there any indication why Bonnie Colwell broke up
Speaker 4: with D'Angelo a year after there was about a year
Speaker 4: into their relationship. Was there any indication why or any
Speaker 4: indication what she thought of him?
Speaker 7: Well, there's the story that she tells. Actually on Man
Speaker 7: in the Window, and I haven't listened to the whole series.
Speaker 7: I was busy doing this book and researching these other
Speaker 7: things and listened to the whole thing. But what I
Speaker 7: heard was that he didn't like to follow the rules.
Speaker 7: He wanted her to give him notes on a particular
Speaker 7: class that that and also cheat for him on a test,
Speaker 7: and she said no, she wouldn't do it. He was
Speaker 7: a lot of times doing things where she was pushing,
Speaker 7: He was pushing the boundaries, and she wasn't comfortable with
Speaker 7: that at all. She knew that the rules didn't apply
Speaker 7: to him, and so she decided that really probably wasn't
Speaker 7: a good idea to marry him. And that's pretty much
Speaker 7: what I know in a nutshell about why she She
Speaker 7: was writing her gut instinct that maybe he wasn't the
Speaker 7: guy for her. And then also he showed up after
Speaker 7: she broke it off with him with a gun, And
Speaker 7: so I talked about that a little bit in my book,
Speaker 7: because it would have been back in the day people
Speaker 7: didn't talk about things like that. And all that her
Speaker 7: father wanted for Joe to do is to go away
Speaker 7: and leave Bonnie alone, and so he talked him down
Speaker 7: and made him go away, and he didn't want to
Speaker 7: ruin his plans for a career in law enforcement, so
Speaker 7: he didn't call the cops on him, and he didn't
Speaker 7: report that he showed up at the house and begun,
Speaker 7: and so DeAngelo wandered away. And what's interesting is that
Speaker 7: her family didn't ever seem to recognize any of the
Speaker 7: newspaper articles later on that this might be the guy that's,
Speaker 7: you know, got a problem.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so yeah, that's very very interesting too. And he
Speaker 4: said too that you know, father must have had this
Speaker 4: delicate balance too, that saying listen, you know, I'm not
Speaker 4: going to call the cops. You know, in those days,
Speaker 4: I don't know if everybody handled everything with the police anyway,
Speaker 4: But it was interesting because he must have made this
Speaker 4: bargain in that you go away and I don't say anything,
Speaker 4: you'd leave my daughter alone kind of it. But it
Speaker 4: really was definitive like that, like go away, and so
Speaker 4: we did.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, he knew Joe wanted to be originally, I
Speaker 7: think it's timeless to be a Californa and higher control
Speaker 7: in that way, I'm sure he could have committed all
Speaker 7: kinds of crimes, you know, out on the road, but
Speaker 7: that didn't happen. He decided to get cop instead.
Speaker 4: So yeah, now I think maybe I said we talked
Speaker 4: about this later, but I think this is such a
Speaker 4: compelling thing in terms of supporting your change of mo
Speaker 4: I mean, I've never seen anything this again radical tell
Speaker 4: us about the rape kits and the warehousing, and the
Speaker 4: backlog and the myths that we might think about rape kits.
Speaker 4: We talk about statute of limitations. There's there's a reason
Speaker 4: why a lot of these things weren't tested. But as
Speaker 4: you write in the book, tell us.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, as they've been studying going to I
Speaker 7: find it really interesting that it's taken this long for
Speaker 7: an article such as this to come out. But it
Speaker 7: was an excellent article about how you know, a lot
Speaker 7: of people have been hearing about how they wear house
Speaker 7: rape kits. They didn't test them, and they were rat
Speaker 7: infested warehouses and with broken windows and all kinds of
Speaker 7: fun stuff. And what they found out they started to
Speaker 7: finally test them, and they've they've had funding to do
Speaker 7: that in different states is they're finding out that the
Speaker 7: patterns are little and behold and of course most women
Speaker 7: would go duh, But and I don't mean to be disrespectful,
Speaker 7: but the reality is is that they always a lot
Speaker 7: of times in law enforcement would assume that the grape
Speaker 7: victim would know her attacker, and if she didn't know
Speaker 7: her attacker, then they wouldn't test the kit or they
Speaker 7: wouldn't put a lot of energy into solving the crime.
Speaker 7: So these tests, these rape kit tests just sat there.
Speaker 7: They didn't ever test them. And what they started finding
Speaker 7: out as they tested them is that it wasn't just
Speaker 7: usually an acquaintance that the perpetrator would rape. He actually
Speaker 7: would go out and rape other women that he didn't know,
Speaker 7: over and over and over. Decade after decade. They found
Speaker 7: that there were serial rapists who use those kids. If
Speaker 7: they'd been tested after the first woman he raped, then
Speaker 7: would have some information about that guy and could have
Speaker 7: stopped it because he became a serial rapist. And it
Speaker 7: was decade after decade that had the same perpetrator, And
Speaker 7: they said, oh my god, these guys don't just rape
Speaker 7: people they know, they rape anybody, and they do it
Speaker 7: over and over and over. And that's why I said, duh,
Speaker 7: because yeah, of course, if somebody's going to rape someone,
Speaker 7: why would they not do it again? If there's no consequences,
Speaker 7: nobody tests the rape kids and so it's it's they had,
Speaker 7: you know, they could do whatever they wanted. But what
Speaker 7: they are doing is they're testing them now and they're
Speaker 7: putting these guys in jail, which is great, but they
Speaker 7: also they ended up what was I going to tell you,
Speaker 7: they had different perpetrators that, like I said, if they
Speaker 7: had tested it right off the bad and what happens
Speaker 7: then too, This is what I was going to tell
Speaker 7: you is serial killers are not just born all of
Speaker 7: a sudden. They start out a lot of times as
Speaker 7: serial rapists and then they become serial killers because maybe
Speaker 7: somebody sees them or whatever it is that they had
Speaker 7: to up the ante, they have to up the adrena
Speaker 7: and whatever it is, and so serial rapists becomes serial killers.
Speaker 7: And yeah, that's one of the things I would have
Speaker 7: thought was logical progression.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you also say too that it took, you know,
Speaker 4: an incredible effort in Ohio and Cleveland, Like you say,
Speaker 4: most of these convictions when you look at the conviction
Speaker 4: rate once they did do that testing, Again, how far
Speaker 4: what was the impetus for them to have to do
Speaker 4: the testing and first place, well, a serial killer like
Speaker 4: Anthony Sewell in Cleveland. So some of these tests and
Speaker 4: governors got involved because that that makes them look good
Speaker 4: or it's it's a great idea, but you say most
Speaker 4: states aren't really participating or they don't have the conviction rates,
Speaker 4: and you provide the reasons for that as well. So
Speaker 4: when it looks like a great story that's finally come
Speaker 4: to bear that while they're they're finally doing something. Again,
Speaker 4: you talked about the efficiency of it too, when they
Speaker 4: when they catch serial rapists, it's conclusive and it's cost
Speaker 4: effective and compared to other forms of investigation.
Speaker 7: Yeah, because it's going to ultimately save the money in
Speaker 7: the long run because they've they've cut down on crime,
Speaker 7: they've gotten rid of the perpetrators off the streets, and yeah,
Speaker 7: it just makes sense all the way around.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's good investigation in terms of in terms
Speaker 4: of time spent, and then the again, the certainty of
Speaker 4: that evidence that you get rather than following leads. It's
Speaker 4: incredible the difference in manpower and how much time you
Speaker 4: would say doing this. So again you write about that
Speaker 4: there's not the will in the Obama administration puts some
Speaker 4: money towards this and then of course those certain states
Speaker 4: that want to participate. But you say there isn't really
Speaker 4: as much cooperation as you might have thought. It was
Speaker 4: a surprise to you.
Speaker 7: Well, actually, yeah, I mean everything is just a little
Speaker 7: bit slower to move along and to progress, like anything that,
Speaker 7: you know, when you want something to change, it takes time.
Speaker 7: And you know, people have been talking about in one
Speaker 7: of my other books, I think that from the first
Speaker 7: one and also in the second one, I talk about
Speaker 7: the rape pit testing and the website that's out there
Speaker 7: regarding that that Mariska Hargate put together. Right, So, you know,
Speaker 7: it's one of those things that's been talked about for
Speaker 7: quite from time, you know, more than a decade. Geez.
Speaker 7: I don't even know exactly when it started to become
Speaker 7: something that people reported that these kids were in warehouses
Speaker 7: and not being tested. Thousands, I mean a couple hundred
Speaker 7: thousands across the United States. It's insane.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about what I and what good Sorry, Let's
Speaker 4: talk about how the startling information that was derived from
Speaker 4: that I say inadvertently, but from this rape kit testing,
Speaker 4: from the somewhat surprising idea that these were serial rapists now,
Speaker 4: and so they could make convictions based on that. What
Speaker 4: also was startling was the support that these guys changed
Speaker 4: their mo so certainly they had that those investigative reports
Speaker 4: who looked at that that supported your idea that people
Speaker 4: could change their ms readily and do.
Speaker 7: Yeah. And what's interesting is they do learn from one another.
Speaker 7: And I mean that I originally said in the Murder
Speaker 7: on his Mind that I thought this killer learned from
Speaker 7: maybe Ted Bundy or whatever, or maybe he was paying
Speaker 7: homage to him or something. But the reality is that
Speaker 7: they really do learn as they go. And back in
Speaker 7: the day, if you think about it, the term serial
Speaker 7: killer hadn't even been said until I think it was
Speaker 7: the seventies. And then what we're trying to figure out
Speaker 7: really what makes them tick and how they operate. And
Speaker 7: a lot of the time people think, like in this story,
Speaker 7: a lot of people actually will think that he The
Speaker 7: story goes exactly how it's been told, which is he
Speaker 7: started out as the Vicelia roundsucker. He was the story rapist.
Speaker 7: He was the original night stucker, and that was all.
Speaker 7: And he operated from seventy three to eighty six and
Speaker 7: then he quit. And some people believe that, But the
Speaker 7: reality is is that most serial killers start way before
Speaker 7: we even know about them, and they don't stop until
Speaker 7: you catch them or they die or they're you know,
Speaker 7: that's pretty how much it. They just don't stop. And
Speaker 7: even if it was just cutting back to prowlings and
Speaker 7: peepings and you know whatever, there was an instance of
Speaker 7: a woman, Susan Jacobson in Roseville, California, who's vanished into
Speaker 7: thin air from a raleighs parking lot and did I
Speaker 7: say two thousand and three and it's in the Attacks
Speaker 7: One areas and not far from where D'Angelo lived, and
Speaker 7: it's never been solved and we've never seen her again.
Speaker 7: So you know, things happened to people. And if a
Speaker 7: man is strong, even if he's over fifty, he can
Speaker 7: still take advantage of opportunities to do what he does.
Speaker 7: So I have to also mention too that doctor Susan
Speaker 7: Barrett also was somebody who was looking at this with
Speaker 7: me along the way after we met online, and I
Speaker 7: believed her story about having this guy show up in
Speaker 7: her home and actually came back as well, and they
Speaker 7: saw him at the time in nineteen eighty three. She
Speaker 7: also looked into these things as well, and she brought
Speaker 7: forth to faster Bill Sheriff's in the DA's office, the
Speaker 7: Granite Spring murders of Sherilyn Hockley and Cindy Wanner Lanner
Speaker 7: as well as a nervoking into that, and then also
Speaker 7: because they were murdered in nineteen ninety one, in nineteen
Speaker 7: ninety three, and also there's another couple in Orangevale, and
Speaker 7: so different things happened over time, and you know there
Speaker 7: was nobody stopping them.
Speaker 4: So what about when you talk in the beginning of
Speaker 4: the book about again, I'm not sure the pronunciation. Is
Speaker 4: it ged match? Is it ged match? What's the name
Speaker 4: of the genealogy company.
Speaker 7: I think you can go with either one. Yeah, jed
Speaker 7: match is what a lot of people say.
Speaker 4: You talk about the in light of the arrest, there
Speaker 4: was some changes to the genealogy site itself, and there
Speaker 4: were obviously is there controversy about again privacy. Tell us
Speaker 4: what your ideas are about that and what those changes are,
Speaker 4: and again your idea about the usefulness of these kinds
Speaker 4: of sites. Tell us what you think.
Speaker 7: Well, I think that one of the reasons it took
Speaker 7: so long to finally, you know, download the profile and
Speaker 7: get the results and find the guy. Is because they
Speaker 7: were trying to figure out how to do it. Because
Speaker 7: of privacy issues, Ancestry was not allowing, I don't think,
Speaker 7: for them to look, you know, just go in there
Speaker 7: and just Carte Blanche looks. So it's kind of a
Speaker 7: you know, they couldn't do anything. They were kind of
Speaker 7: stuck because you didn't have a name, you know, you
Speaker 7: just had a profile. So when they found Jedmatch and
Speaker 7: also a genealogist to work with, the site was an
Speaker 7: open site, completely open site for them to do the
Speaker 7: search for any matches or any DNA that had been
Speaker 7: put into the system that might find DiAngelo. And after
Speaker 7: he was found, and after this last year or so
Speaker 7: of you know, catching all kinds of people like the
Speaker 7: nor Cal rapists, they did the same kind of thing
Speaker 7: to find him. He was in Berkeley and different other
Speaker 7: perpetrators the last year, so they've caught I think twenty
Speaker 7: eighteen or about thirty or more in twenty nineteen was
Speaker 7: the biggest year ever of solving cold cases across the
Speaker 7: United States historically ever, And so it's a great tool.
Speaker 7: And I was concerned that they would limit what they
Speaker 7: were allowing, you know, people to do, they would legislate it,
Speaker 7: they would change the laws so that this would cut
Speaker 7: down on the ability to find people. And so they
Speaker 7: did change jet Maatch itself did change their policy for
Speaker 7: their customers so that now you have to opt in
Speaker 7: on their site to be aware that they could use
Speaker 7: your DNA for purposes of finding criminals, and you can
Speaker 7: opt in. So people need to know that they can
Speaker 7: do that. They can say yeah, sure, go ahead, you know.
Speaker 7: And so it's just a little safeguard for jet match
Speaker 7: to make people feel a little more comfortable that people
Speaker 7: can't do anything with their DNA unless they give permission.
Speaker 7: And I get that, I understand the privacy issues, but
Speaker 7: it's going to cut down on how fast they are
Speaker 7: able to find people, I'm sure. And then also I
Speaker 7: just saw an article but I haven't had a chance
Speaker 7: to sit down and read it. Actually, it was just
Speaker 7: yesterday or last night about they did change some laws
Speaker 7: and I'm not sure what that intails yet. So and
Speaker 7: it will cut down on how many people are discovered.
Speaker 7: Probably probably.
Speaker 4: Sorry when you think you wrote the book that you
Speaker 4: thought you thought that if there was a connection between
Speaker 4: East Area rapist, Golden State killer, and Zodiac that that
Speaker 4: would be explored because so many people had that on
Speaker 4: their mind anyway, and with the DNA, you thought that
Speaker 4: would be a certainty, and you thought it will be
Speaker 4: too long before that kind of announcement. What do you think?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I thought, see, because anybody who knows these
Speaker 7: crimes and knows hows and knows how close geographically everything
Speaker 7: really is. And that's why I put maps in this
Speaker 7: book that show exactly how close everything really is, Santa
Speaker 7: Rosa to the Leo and Leo to San Francisco and
Speaker 7: so on, that if they think about these crimes and
Speaker 7: geographically that he really had the opportunity to be in
Speaker 7: those areas and kid get away, that it's really something
Speaker 7: to consider. The thing is is that there are a
Speaker 7: couple attempts when it comes to Zodiac. There's some people
Speaker 7: who I don't think really want it to be solved
Speaker 7: because it's sort of a myth and a mystery. There
Speaker 7: are other people who are absolutely adamant that it can't
Speaker 7: possibly be him because he didn't rape the victims or
Speaker 7: his m all seemed to them to be so totally different.
Speaker 7: And I think he did that on purpose. Like I said,
Speaker 7: he was smarter than most and was able to do
Speaker 7: exactly what he said in his letter as he left,
Speaker 7: was to just sort of change it up and not
Speaker 7: announce what we're doing. And he did light fires, and
Speaker 7: he did, you know, break into houses, and he did
Speaker 7: all this other stuff too, and so he was aware
Speaker 7: of what he had to do to sort of become
Speaker 7: a different persona. And that's you know, some people out
Speaker 7: there really believe what I believe, that it's a possibility
Speaker 7: and that it could be him. And I say in
Speaker 7: the book that I do think it's him, and that's
Speaker 7: based on all the details of reading the witness statements
Speaker 7: and the police reports, just really investigating like crazy to
Speaker 7: try to figure out, you know, if it really could
Speaker 7: be him. So but as far as changing m O,
Speaker 7: you know, people really are pretty rigid sometimes and how
Speaker 7: they think. Uh. And this guy in particular, I referred
Speaker 7: to this episode of Dexter in my last book, where
Speaker 7: the reality was is the criminal was the criminalist. He
Speaker 7: was the blood spatter expert on Dexter. If anybody knows
Speaker 7: that that show, and what happens is he sends them
Speaker 7: a manifesto that includes all this different stuff to try
Speaker 7: to confuse them and everybody in law enforcement's reading this
Speaker 7: and they all come out with different conclusions about who
Speaker 7: it could be. I mean, some people thought that the
Speaker 7: Zodiac was the unibomber. They all have their suspect that
Speaker 7: they really think is really the guy, and that's that's fine.
Speaker 7: I mean, we would be great to solve it one
Speaker 7: way or the other. But when what he does is
Speaker 7: he tries to make them run around in circles and
Speaker 7: chase their tails, and he's very effective at that, and
Speaker 7: that's what DiAngelo was very effective at. So people who
Speaker 7: don't think there's any way that it could be him,
Speaker 7: the reality is it really could be him. And like
Speaker 7: I said, we can place him there in time and
Speaker 7: geography as well as some of the things he said,
Speaker 7: some of the things he did. It's real consistent if
Speaker 7: you really look at it.
Speaker 4: Was there a commonality that you could that you discovered
Speaker 4: between East Area rapists seeming seemingly fascination with wanting to
Speaker 4: dominate couples and the order of their abuse, Like you say,
Speaker 4: the women more so than the man, but the man
Speaker 4: would go first. Is there a commonalities between the Zodiac
Speaker 4: and Easter Aio rapists in terms of regards the couples
Speaker 4: and his hatreds was.
Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, he did it basically in some order in
Speaker 7: the same way, tied them up the same way. You know.
Speaker 7: It was a classic that he did in the murders
Speaker 7: and Dana Point and other couples that he murdered in
Speaker 7: the nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty six. The way
Speaker 7: he tied them basically hogtied them. You know, it's all
Speaker 7: basically the same way that he did it. Some of
Speaker 7: the things he said while he was doing things, the
Speaker 7: fact that he left wallets and said he was just
Speaker 7: there for money and he was going to go to
Speaker 7: Mexico and just different things like that, and there's a
Speaker 7: lot more other detail that connects them circumstantially.
Speaker 4: So yeah, you provide some he provides some interesting photos
Speaker 4: too of di'angelo and then put us side by side
Speaker 4: with accomposites. It's very interesting, I see when you see
Speaker 4: that in that context. Very interesting what you've included there.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, and again some of that came from the
Speaker 7: same gentleman that researched this as well, the articles and
Speaker 7: the different things that came up, and the composites that
Speaker 7: he was able to find. Anyway, it was interesting how
Speaker 7: we investigated it because we started in a particular place
Speaker 7: and ended up coming at it from a completely different
Speaker 7: direction and then did find connections. And I was probably
Speaker 7: and like I said, when I started this book, this
Speaker 7: is not where I was going with it. This was
Speaker 7: not what was in my mind. But to answer your
Speaker 7: question earlier about DeAngelo and possibly being him, what I
Speaker 7: thought was when they started to figure out his history
Speaker 7: and kind of track it, and then I also heard
Speaker 7: they were testing or trying to test DNA from a
Speaker 7: stamp or from an envelope or something else. And I
Speaker 7: had also heard that they had a part profile, and
Speaker 7: so I was kind of waiting in the back of
Speaker 7: my mind for all that time for them to make
Speaker 7: some sort of announcement ruling him either in or out.
Speaker 7: Because D'Angelo was originally before we knew who he was
Speaker 7: at all, One of the first avenues I went down
Speaker 7: was could this be the same guy? Why did I
Speaker 7: go down that avenue? As I was starting to really
Speaker 7: look into the Eastery rapist well, because it was the geography,
Speaker 7: and all throughout my books, the geography and you know,
Speaker 7: has been an important factor in these cases, and so
Speaker 7: I looked at the possibility that the East Airy Rapist
Speaker 7: could be the Zodiac way early on, like five years ago,
Speaker 7: and I read The Most Dangerous Game, and you know
Speaker 7: how he liked to hunt people and you know, so on,
Speaker 7: and then I thought, well, I don't think he's the
Speaker 7: right age. So I really wanted to get onto my
Speaker 7: investigations for the East Airy Rapist crimes, so I kind
Speaker 7: of put that aside, and always in the back of
Speaker 7: my mind, I was just like, I wonder so because
Speaker 7: of the geography, but then because I thought he was
Speaker 7: too young to have been the Zodiac, I really was
Speaker 7: hoping Diangela was younger so that he could be kind
Speaker 7: of stronger when he was finally caught. I really thought
Speaker 7: that that they would make an announcement in the last year,
Speaker 7: you know, and I found out that they really couldn't
Speaker 7: do that because the DNA was not very good. So
Speaker 7: here we are, yeah, yeah, And like I said, we
Speaker 7: just kind of played with the idea for several months.
Speaker 7: It was sort of like, are we going to solve
Speaker 7: this or you know, what's the deal? And we kind
Speaker 7: of went back and forth and back and forth, and
Speaker 7: all all of us did and and then here we
Speaker 7: all sort of ended up in the same place, you know, together.
Speaker 4: Is there any interest by law enforcement in the kinds
Speaker 4: of well, not the kinds of the things that you
Speaker 4: are saying, saying the information that you do have provided.
Speaker 4: Do you think they will be interested? Is there some willingness?
Speaker 7: Do you think, yes, this is a scary idea to
Speaker 7: admit to, but yeah, they're interested.
Speaker 4: That's fascinating. Now you talked about you talked about Lompoc, California,
Speaker 4: But what about Lompoc really is so important to this
Speaker 4: idea that they're one and the same.
Speaker 7: Well, in nineteen sixty three, there were murders of couples
Speaker 7: that began on the beach in that area at Gaviata
Speaker 7: Beach and also Imperial Beach, and there's a couple others,
Speaker 7: and that's in Santa Barbara County, and none of the
Speaker 7: murders have ever been solved. And quite some time after
Speaker 7: those murders, when the zoa without running a monk, they said, well, gee,
Speaker 7: we think maybe he did commit the murders. Pre Zodiac
Speaker 7: activity down in that area, and there were murders on
Speaker 7: the beach in nineteen sixty three, sixty four, nineteen seventy.
Speaker 7: There's just different murders that occurred in different ways that
Speaker 7: they occurred. That's being getting shot stabbed, you know. So
Speaker 7: again it's the same kind of thing with the Zodiac
Speaker 7: where he shot and stabbed and you know, different things.
Speaker 7: So and they thought, well, gee, maybe he also carried
Speaker 7: killed Jerry Joe Bates in nineteen sixty six. And here's
Speaker 7: one of the things that people really go, well, he
Speaker 7: couldn't have because he was on that boat and he
Speaker 7: was on his way to Vietnam or whatever. And the
Speaker 7: fact is that we can't find we can't find him
Speaker 7: on any roster. He didn't actually go anywhere. From what
Speaker 7: we can gather, he was not on that boat at
Speaker 7: that time. So he was available for that murder and
Speaker 7: he basically claimed it as the Zodiac. So so anyway,
Speaker 7: there's a lot of information, a lot of detail that
Speaker 7: you just keep looking for something to come up where
Speaker 7: you can say, oh, it couldn't have been him, it
Speaker 7: doesn't tie, it doesn't fit, you know. But the fact
Speaker 7: is that no matter what we looked at as far
Speaker 7: as how this particular story went, he was available. He
Speaker 7: was connected to an area. There's evidence that he was
Speaker 7: connected to forty three minute drive from those Beaches in
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty three. So you know, it's sort of like, well,
Speaker 7: what does the evidence tell you? I didn't make the
Speaker 7: evidence tell me anything. The evidence just tells you, you know. So, yes,
Speaker 7: And when I those to that, I didn't read any
Speaker 7: books on the subject. I didn't read any blogs on
Speaker 7: the subject. I didn't read anything because I didn't want
Speaker 7: anybody else's bias to affect where this story took me,
Speaker 7: where the investigations took me, and where the evidence took me,
Speaker 7: and so I had none of that. The things that
Speaker 7: I read, like I said, were the police reports, the
Speaker 7: witness statements, the timelines, the geography, and what he said.
Speaker 7: And did.
Speaker 4: You talk about one county? Is it Santa Barbara County?
Speaker 4: If it isn't, pardon me, but which county was reluctant
Speaker 4: to bring up? I first said there was an evidence
Speaker 4: and then was reluctant to give up that evidence till
Speaker 4: two hundred, twenty thirteen.
Speaker 7: To twenty eleven. And what they didn't Yeah, what I
Speaker 7: was told, one of my sources told me, is that
Speaker 7: Santa Barbara County tried to convince everybody during the East
Speaker 7: Ay Rapist original Nightstalker series that they had no evidence
Speaker 7: to test in those murders, but they had nothing. And
Speaker 7: this went on from nineteen this was nineteen eighty one
Speaker 7: until twenty and eleven. Finally they said, oh, here, we
Speaker 7: have some evidence, and so finally they tested it and
Speaker 7: they were able to connect in two thousand and eleven,
Speaker 7: which is a long ways from the nineteen eighties the
Speaker 7: murders Terry Domingos and Greg Sanchez to other murders in
Speaker 7: southern California. That's how long the families had to wait
Speaker 7: to know for a fact that it was the same
Speaker 7: serial killer. And what was the reluctance to give that
Speaker 7: information in that evidence. So I'm wondering what Santa Barbara
Speaker 7: County has in evidence now from the nineteen sixty three murders,
Speaker 7: sixty four, seventy and so on. What evidence do they have?
Speaker 7: And that's what I asked them in the book, is like,
Speaker 7: did you test it recently? Can it be tested? Because
Speaker 7: if there's anything at all all that will that will
Speaker 7: tell us who the guy is, it's got to have
Speaker 7: There's got to be some kind of DNA somewhere or
Speaker 7: some kind of evidence, like there was a fishing knife
Speaker 7: left under the bodies of two of the murder victims
Speaker 7: on the beach. And you know that D'Angelo liked the
Speaker 7: fish and he carried a fishing knife. So there's just
Speaker 7: different things. Like I said, it's all circumstantial, and it's
Speaker 7: in the book, and I didn't expect it to be
Speaker 7: where it led me. This This is you know, you
Speaker 7: have to ask, well, well, does this make sense? Is
Speaker 7: this really what happened, you know, or is this close
Speaker 7: to what happened. Even if it's close to what happened,
Speaker 7: maybe we can figure it out if we test evidence.
Speaker 7: So that's pretty.
Speaker 4: Much you've provided. You've provided, you provided the circumstantial evidence,
Speaker 4: you've stated the case for it and the reasoning behind it.
Speaker 4: So you've laid out your case very very carefully, meticulously
Speaker 4: with all the and again the timeline, you've already cleared that.
Speaker 4: So you've done a lot of work for these people
Speaker 4: so they can look at that. And then, like you said,
Speaker 4: as you say in the book, it's you don't have
Speaker 4: access to the DNA, you're not at a lab to
Speaker 4: do the testing, but certainly anybody would look at this
Speaker 4: information unless they could see something that you didn't see
Speaker 4: from their vantage point. It would be simple to find
Speaker 4: out the absolute truth once and for all with DNA test.
Speaker 7: Part of the problems. I mean, we have ballistic evidence
Speaker 7: from a lot of this stuff too, and that's right.
Speaker 7: The problem with that is and maybe we could get
Speaker 7: lucky with it, who knows. But the thing with the
Speaker 7: ballistics evidence is that the thing that D'Angelo did a
Speaker 7: lot was steel firearms and then get rid of them
Speaker 7: so they can be connected to him. That the Snelling
Speaker 7: murder in nineteen seventy five in by Celia, that's exactly
Speaker 7: what he did. He stole a fire arm from somebody
Speaker 7: there in the area and then he used it against
Speaker 7: Claude Snelling, and then of course that probably got hitched
Speaker 7: after that. So he was clever in that he continually
Speaker 7: took firearms and ammunition. But in the very beginning back
Speaker 7: in Lompoc, he bought somebody bought him or he bought
Speaker 7: ammunition and they actually inadvertently left it at the scene.
Speaker 7: So there's ballistics evidence. They thought possibly the Zodiac used
Speaker 7: the same kind of ammunition and weapon from the murders
Speaker 7: on the beach that day and also the first murders
Speaker 7: in the Zodiac series. So I'm a little I'm not
Speaker 7: as well versed in the types of guns, etc. And ballistics.
Speaker 7: But the descriptions of the gun are interesting because it
Speaker 7: has a long nose on it. But anyway, it'd just
Speaker 7: be interesting to see if they really, really diligently went
Speaker 7: after looking at some of this evidence, what kind of
Speaker 7: answers would we get? And that's I also didn't expect
Speaker 7: to get to that place in my book either, but
Speaker 7: but you know, it begs the questions do you have evidence?
Speaker 7: And if you do, you know, even the ripping of
Speaker 7: shirts and different materials that were left on bodies, and
Speaker 7: there was also an instance where someone was strangled with
Speaker 7: scarf and things like that, where you know, is this him?
Speaker 7: Did he do this? Is there a way to find out?
Speaker 7: You know? And that way we could solve other murders
Speaker 7: for other families. And that's pretty much the point.
Speaker 4: Before I let you go. One of the more interesting things,
Speaker 4: and part of part of your argument too, are the
Speaker 4: support your argument is that the sterio rapists would use
Speaker 4: fabrics as ties often for his victims, and the.
Speaker 7: Zodiac, yeah, towels or whatever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, And you say in support of that, you
Speaker 4: talk about the zodiac and pulse sign and the shirt
Speaker 4: just before I let you go, tell us about Paul
Speaker 4: Stein and what Zodiac in your mind does with this shirt.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, if we can really track it, and
Speaker 7: we really can't tell you what when he began, what
Speaker 7: he did and all that, But when it comes to
Speaker 7: the Paullstein murder, we know that he ripped his shirt
Speaker 7: and he took pieces of it to send the law
Speaker 7: enforcement to prove it with him. And just when I
Speaker 7: thought about him tearing the shirt, I thought about all
Speaker 7: the other crimes that were committed later on where he
Speaker 7: tore towels or he tore There was material found on
Speaker 7: the backs of Manuela with Hewan and different things that
Speaker 7: occurred over time where you can see that he was
Speaker 7: ripping fabric. That happened to some of the EASTERI rapist
Speaker 7: victims too, And I thought, is that when he psychologically
Speaker 7: became attached to the ripping of the fabric, was that
Speaker 7: something that he enjoyed doing because of what he did
Speaker 7: in the pause time case? I don't know, but you
Speaker 7: know these are things that I wondered.
Speaker 4: So that's fascinating. I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 4: and you make an incredible and compelling case for this.
Speaker 4: What if Golden State Killer zodiac Solved. For those that
Speaker 4: might want to look and see rather work, can you
Speaker 4: tell us about a Facebook page or a website and
Speaker 4: please Well.
Speaker 7: I can be found on Facebook under end Penn. I
Speaker 7: also have a word press side and pen word press
Speaker 7: and yeah, the podcast that you and I have investing
Speaker 7: the time I've talked to anybody about this, so I
Speaker 7: appreciate your time with that and always appreciate the interviews.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much for coming on and sharing
Speaker 4: with us first what If Golden State Killer zodiac Solved
Speaker 4: and Pen. Thank you once again very much. You have
Speaker 4: a great evening. I hope to talk to you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, thanks so much tonight, good night, Thank you, good night,