WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:10.720 You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen? 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:15.560 What? 3 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:28.960 Welcome back to the occult Rejects. Today we're joined by 4 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:33.640 Enid Baxter Rice, author of Ancient Spells and Incantations Echoes 5 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:36.719 of Magic through the Ages and Across Cultures. This is 6 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.119 a book that reaches into one of the oldest magical 7 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:44.560 technologies human beings ever used the spoken word, before printing presses, 8 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:48.799 before modern psychology, before spell books became esthetic objects on 9 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:55.200 a shelf. People whispered, sang, carved, paryed, cursed, healed, protected, 10 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:59.039 and commanded through language. The spell was not just a sentence. 11 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:04.239 It was breath, rhythm, memory, intention, fear, hope, and authority 12 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:07.200 shaped in words. What makes these subjects so powerful is 13 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:10.519 that these old incantations were not always preserved in clean 14 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:14.840 or comfortable places. Some survived in grimars, some survived in 15 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:21.319 paptery letters, manuscripts, charms, pottery, fragments, medical texts, and ritual records. 16 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:26.040 Others survived because enemies of magic wrote them down inquisitors, 17 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:31.719 church courts, colonizers, prosecutors, skeptics, and authorities trying to document 18 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:34.879 what they wanted to control or destroy. So when we 19 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.200 look at ancient spells, we are not only looking at magic. 20 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.599 We are looking at survival. We are looking at voices 21 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:47.319 that pass through persecution, translation, misunderstanding, and time. And that 22 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.640 is why this conversation matters. Modern people often reduced spells 23 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:55.159 to fantasy or entertainment, but in the ancient and folk worlds, 24 00:01:55.159 --> 00:02:07.920 incantations were part of life. People used them for sickness, childbirth, love, protection, enemies, ghosts, animals, harvests, weather, grief, fear, justice, 25 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:12.039 and revenge. They were not separate from daily existence. They 26 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.000 belonged to the body, the home, the field, the sick 27 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:19.319 bed and threshold, the grave, and the sacred space. Today 28 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.560 we're going to ask what these words meant, how they worked, 29 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:25.400 why they lasted, and what they can still teach us 30 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:30.759 about human relationship to language, power, spirit and reality. But 31 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:33.439 before we introduce the guests, I also want to remind 32 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.080 people about the website. If you're into reading, we have 33 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.000 tons of information by multiple contributors, and we got t 34 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.120 shirts up on the site if you're interested fun fact, 35 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:45.240 the art is all based on the eyeball. Now let 36 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:48.520 me introduce the guest eating back to the rice. Please 37 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:50.759 let everybody know what is up with you and where 38 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.479 they can find all of your amazing stuff, your books 39 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:54.639 or anything you like to promote. 40 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:59.879 Thank you. First of all, that was such a beautiful introduction. 41 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.560 It's kind of like marveling. I love the way you 42 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:08.439 described that history and the amazing weird way that these 43 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:11.800 things survive. This is the book. It's out, you can 44 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:19.479 get it anywhere books are solds and I wrote and 45 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:20.479 illustrated it. 46 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:24.319 Yeah, the illustrations are amazing in my opinion, Like that 47 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:26.120 really quote my attention. When I was going through the book, 48 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.479 I was like, Yo, he's a wild And I be 49 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:30.919 completely honest, I had to check to see if they 50 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:33.560 were like originals or if you droom because I was like, Yo, 51 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:37.639 these things actually look like they're old. So your reconstruction 52 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:39.719 of them like really made me think I was looking 53 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:40.759 at the originals stuff. 54 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:44.199 Oh that's exciting. Well, some of them are drawings of 55 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:49.520 the originals and manuscripts, and then some of them are 56 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:52.840 me doing stuff like this where basically I paint with 57 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:56.360 water and write words into the bottom, so the title 58 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:58.240 of the book is actually in the bottom of the 59 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:01.479 forest on the ghost farest. Some that cover and then 60 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:05.919 some I just soaked watercolor paper and dropped ink on 61 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.560 it and saw what emerged and then kind of pulled 62 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:10.639 it out. Those are those weird characters all the way 63 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:11.039 through it. 64 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:16.120 So that was fine, nice, nice. So I guess I 65 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:18.120 kind of where I ask all, like, you know most 66 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:19.920 people that come on the show for this type of stuff, 67 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.360 what got you into this? Like how did you fund yourself? 68 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.120 I guess into magic, the occult, whatever you call it, witchcraft. 69 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:33.160 So definitely in my family there's a tradition of herbalism, which, oh, 70 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:37.040 you know, in the Middle Ages, there was no difference 71 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:40.639 between magic, science art, you. 72 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:42.480 Know, cooking, it was all the same. 73 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.319 Yeah. Yeah, So it was all this these kind of 74 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.879 predictive arts, these things that were mysterious, like how do 75 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:51.680 you transform a vegetable into a great soup? How do 76 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:55.639 you transform a vegetable into a poultice to heal someone? 77 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:58.759 Maybe you can use it to transform anything. So I 78 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:04.240 was working on this book which came out in July, 79 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:08.839 and it's a plant magic at home, and I was like, 80 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:10.959 during the pandemic, I was trying to get my kids 81 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:14.160 outside like crazy, and I was like, hey, guys, let's 82 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:15.920 do this thing I used to do when I was 83 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.839 a child, which was to go out and collect herbs 84 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.480 and plants and berries and bark, and we would make 85 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:27.839 dyes for my mother's weavings. And so I got my 86 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.480 kids into sort of this process, which it's weirdly like 87 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:34.399 exciting and relaxing, and that's so I started. I was like, Okay, 88 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:37.560 I want to write this book that tells all about 89 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:40.560 how to do that, but also has the history of 90 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:44.439 each plant and what it was used for in magic 91 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:49.720 medicine folklore. And as I was researching that, I started 92 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:53.839 finding these amazing incantations connected in these old texts with 93 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.560 the plants and started writing them down. And then I realized, like, 94 00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:59.839 this would be a really fun book. And you know, 95 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:04.000 there's this access that I have to libraries because I'm 96 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:06.720 a professor that you know, most people don't really get 97 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:10.160 access to. And it's it's very like dark academia. Like 98 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:12.800 I put in the request and I get an email 99 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.000 and it's in a blocker, and I go to the 100 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:17.000 locker and I open it up and there's the book. 101 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:19.959 It smells awesome, and I take it home and I 102 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:22.040 have one of these things where you actually have it 103 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:27.040 right here, where you like set the book in the. 104 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.519 Use that library. Yeah, when I've gone there to get 105 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.040 some of the old books. Yeah, they give you a 106 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:32.879 thing and they give you like, yeah, they weighted. It's 107 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:33.800 like a weighted sock. 108 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.920 Yeah wait yeah, yeah, yeah, it's totally. It's a it's 109 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:39.920 one of those things you heat up like if you 110 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.120 want to, you're done, you can you. 111 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:43.720 Know, to your Yeah, they want you to use that 112 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.040 to hold the page down instead of your hands. Yeah yeah. 113 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.800 Yeah. So so I get these books and typically when 114 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:56.720 they're written about by professors, it's scholarly, which is pouring. 115 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.439 And I wanted to make a fun book that you 116 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.040 could actually play with and use the incantations and kind 117 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.439 of reveal some of this old stuff. So that was 118 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:07.000 I had a ball with that. 119 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.240 That is awesome. That is really cool. That's also what 120 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:12.959 you did with the herbs too. I have to get 121 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.120 you back on maybe to talk about that. I'm pretty 122 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:16.920 interested in herbs and that stuff. 123 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:23.519 Yeah, me too. I don't know where that history comes 124 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.240 all the way down from. My mother was from a 125 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:33.839 Celtic and Sephardic background, and I remember that, you know, 126 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:36.600 when I was little, she was always planting marigolds next 127 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:38.199 to the tomatoes, and I was like, why are you 128 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:42.240 doing that? She said, to protect them? And I thought, oh, 129 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:44.839 maybe it's like the smell you know of marigolds is 130 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.439 really strong, like as an insecticide or something like that. 131 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:52.160 But it turns out there's this like micro biology reason 132 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:55.639 that marigolds intertwine with tomato roots and protect them from 133 00:07:55.639 --> 00:08:00.839 this micro organism called nematotes. And you know, my didn't 134 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.199 go to school for biology. And I called her. I 135 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:06.000 was like, how did you know about this thing? And 136 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:08.000 she was like, your grandma told me. And I don't 137 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:10.199 know that. My grandma got past eighth grade. So I 138 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:15.240 you know, it's just wild, right people know, right? Like, 139 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.439 And then you look across cultures and there's some plants 140 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.720 that just show up everywhere as being magical. Mugwort is 141 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.600 one all around the world. Mugwort is magical, yarrow is 142 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.759 magical anywhere you go, South America, China, everywhere. 143 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.440 That is really interesting. Actually, that says something I think. 144 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.080 I think so too. It's really cool. 145 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.799 I ended up doing a I haven't finished it. I 146 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:42.080 have a five part series of maybe the six I 147 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:44.440 think it's only five, and I have like six or 148 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:49.440 seven done ready to record it. I did magical herbs 149 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:53.480 and the way they affect your twelve cranial nerves, and 150 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:56.960 even that was so interesting realizing like what are they 151 00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:59.279 like what they do to your you know a lot 152 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:01.879 of them will affect your vegas nerve and your old factory, 153 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.120 and like how it actually does start. Some of the 154 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.279 interesting things that I thought was, you know that I 155 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.159 found that kind of surprised me is that it almost 156 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.960 seems like what they were using these herbs for, in 157 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:19.240 a sense, it was doing in your physically right. And 158 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:22.840 it's like did they know that? Like somehow they just 159 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.559 knew that and maybe didn't know how it worked, But 160 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:28.039 I wonder if they actually understood, like when you smell 161 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:30.440 this one, it's going to slow your vegas nerve down, 162 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.399 so now your stomach will start to feel better, or 163 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:34.519 your throat because it connects from here down to there. 164 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:36.360 It's just like, did they know that? 165 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:42.399 It's amazing When I go to work with schools, like 166 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:45.799 school children, I grow a lot of lavender in my 167 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.720 yard because you know, I always bring it and we 168 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:51.080 make like fairy houses and stuff. But the kids get 169 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.960 like really calm because it calms them down, and it's 170 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:58.320 just suthing you can do, yeah, to take care of, 171 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:02.000 you know, people when you're working with them. 172 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.320 I love lavender for that reason. I always I use 173 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:05.679 a lot of it. Well, not a lot of it, 174 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:07.879 but I do use it often for that reason. I 175 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:09.720 have like a wax burner. I put it like lavender 176 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:10.879 oil in it to try to. 177 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:14.639 Like, you know, I guess I'm like, I harvested the 178 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:18.000 early summer lavender. It's like drying. But yeah, it's like. 179 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:20.720 All over my g It's one of my favorite I 180 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:25.720 love this smelly too, very good. So uh yeah, I guess. 181 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:31.039 So when it comes to uh, what kind of sources actually, 182 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:33.919 let me let me ask you something else first. Uh, 183 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:36.320 was there a moment during the research where you felt 184 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:38.840 like this is not just folklore, there is something like 185 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:42.960 there is someone's real fear, real grief, real hope or 186 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:45.559 attempt at like a real attempt to survive. 187 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.399 Yeah, definitely, And that was the thing I think that 188 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:51.759 also drew me to it, like over the past few 189 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.840 years with you know, all the conflicts in the world 190 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:59.080 and you know, the first chapter of the book talks 191 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:03.879 about incantation bulls, which everybody was living together in you know, 192 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:08.039 the ancient world in the Middle East, and nobody was 193 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:11.600 supposed to be going to the scribe to get magic spells. 194 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:16.879 But the scribe, who is writing spelling incursive, like it's 195 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.399 even in our language, right, you know, he was kind 196 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.120 of code switching to whoever the customer was. So if 197 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:25.360 it was a Jewish person, you know, he'd write the 198 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:27.240 spell and then be like in the name of Abraham 199 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.159 at the end. And if it was you know, a 200 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:33.159 Zoroastrian person or a Coptic person, they'd switch. And then 201 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.480 later when Muslim people were there, the same thing it 202 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.120 would be, you know, oriented towards them. So I was like, oh, 203 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.000 well everybody has in common that we sneak off and 204 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:45.559 do taboo things, you know. And then as you read 205 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:50.240 the spells, you read like, wow, we all have this 206 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.240 the same vulnerabilities over thousands of years, Like we all 207 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:57.000 want love, we all want protection, we all want health, 208 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:00.000 we all want to make stuff happen, we all get 209 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.679 angry and want revenge, you know, and it's just so like, 210 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:08.240 like the the cursed tablets from ancient Rome are so petty. 211 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:10.559 Let me see if I can find one. You know, 212 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.440 when you're reading it and you're like, oh my gosh, 213 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:16.240 this is this is wild. You know, like this is 214 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:19.440 so reality TV moment. 215 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.519 You know, it's like, wow, there was they're the way 216 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:25.200 we are now. They've somehow managed to be like that 217 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:26.799 back then. Way right. Yeah. 218 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:33.240 Yeah. This Pella Cursed tablet, it's like big and it's 219 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:38.360 it's funny. The woman who wrote it says, I bind 220 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:43.480 to prohibit marriage for Dionosapon. By this written spell. I 221 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:47.320 prohibit all other women, be they widows or maidens, but 222 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:53.120 prohibit Fetima in particular. I didn't like that's you and 223 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.200 the spell to the spirit of my friend Macron. I 224 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.200 leave it at her grave so she may bring it 225 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.559 to you, Damons, only when I dig it up, unroll 226 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:08.559 and reread. Might a woman wed Dionysophon, but not before, 227 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.279 for I wish for him to take no other woman 228 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:14.600 than me. I wish to grow old with Dionysophon and 229 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:18.080 no one else. I plead with you. Have pity on me, 230 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.000 dear Damons, for I have no one. My family belittles me. 231 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:27.120 I feel abandoned by all my friends. Protect this spell 232 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.720 for my sake, so that their marriage does not happen 233 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.240 and wretched, horrible Fetuma perishes and misery, while I become 234 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:36.240 happy and blessed. 235 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:40.120 Yo. That is like so real and personal, like you 236 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:41.840 know what I'm saying, like wow. 237 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:46.960 Yeah, yeah, you're also like calm down. 238 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.840 Yeah yeah yeah right, but like the person was like 239 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.600 really like so honest in that thing. It's really cool 240 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:53.360 to see that. 241 00:13:54.600 --> 00:14:01.120 So there's that vulnerability, Yeah, there is that vulnerability and longing, 242 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.399 and you know when it reminds you that when you 243 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:09.799 feel lonely, you are not alone, right like that is that. 244 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:13.720 Was that was actually really cool to hear because it 245 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:15.639 makes it sound like it's real, you know what I'm saying, 246 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:17.799 Like that's things everybody thinks, you know. 247 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:21.919 Yeah. And then the you know, the crazy part is 248 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.120 some of the places I was finding these things as 249 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.720 you mentioned, you know, witch trial transcripts or you know 250 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:32.240 the Tattletale monk who's writing back to the pope and 251 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:37.840 telling on everyone's nahuattles spells and what's now Mexico, and 252 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:42.159 he becomes the best record of the stuff that we have. Right, 253 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:45.679 So I was joking with like snitches get witches. 254 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.480 You know what I had covered myself. I covered a 255 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.440 Valentinis and then I covered I covered some other group 256 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.360 of like kind of like Gnostic Christians and it's kind 257 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:03.360 of funny how like sometimes you have to like kind 258 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:06.039 of you'll take there'll be a lot of actually on 259 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:08.399 those people. There was a lot of hostile as you'd 260 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.039 call it to where it's like you're reading people that 261 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.600 critique them or didn't like them, and it's just funny 262 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:17.120 sometimes even seeing it from that angle, it's just like 263 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.639 it's kind of silly, but it is interesting how like 264 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:22.720 that sometimes that's the way you even got to learn 265 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.399 about people is from reading like didn't they? And then that, 266 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.000 to me, that proves that they must have been important 267 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.200 enough for these important people in the Catholic Church to 268 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:34.159 start condemning them one hundred percent. 269 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:41.559 There's this like indigenous magic practice from England that there's 270 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:44.960 this book called It's like got one of those medieval 271 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:47.720 titles that's like a paragraph there. 272 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:51.919 Yeah, that is like the Renaissance time. It's like, yeah, 273 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:53.799 you get like the whole page is the title of 274 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:55.679 the book. You're like, come on, I guess since you 275 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:57.320 had the paper, you're going to use it up right. 276 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:04.799 Yeah. So these two schools heart Leave and Mulatories and 277 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:09.039 they write Hazards of the Dark Arts Advice for Medieval 278 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:12.799 Princes on witchcraft and magic, but it's really one prince. 279 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.080 They're writing too, like they're really worried that this one 280 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:19.080 Germanic prince in fourteen fifty six is going to get 281 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:23.840 you know, interested in magic. But this spell, there are 282 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.679 people who conjure a loaf of bread and stick three 283 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.200 knives into it, making three crosses, and attach a spindle 284 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.000 to a spindle wheel, and two persons hold it on 285 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.360 their ring fingers and they conjure the Holy Apostles and 286 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.279 so you know, it's a it sounds almost like an unoffering, right, 287 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.480 like a bread offering to the poly Apostles. But they're 288 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:48.240 writing this as like critical, you know, like yeah, yeah, 289 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.360 exactly help with these people. But like so the whole 290 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:55.480 book becomes this really neat way to look at spells 291 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:56.159 from that era. 292 00:16:58.200 --> 00:16:59.840 Yeah, it's just I thought it was funny, like the 293 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:03.279 was telling on the other people. It's like I noticed 294 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.519 that in the Catholic Church all of a sudden they 295 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:07.440 sort of telling on the Gnostics that I guess hit 296 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.240 him like and it's like so silly. 297 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.880 Yeah, the Gnostics you know, were not into Empire. They 298 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.799 were into sort of. 299 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.799 I think they just wanted to from the material world. 300 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.000 Yeah all that too, Yeah, oh huge, yeah, yeah, and so. 301 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:29.960 That's that's a little threatening to the Roman Empire version 302 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:31.200 of Christianity. 303 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:34.160 It's really fascinating, Yeah, the history of it. I covered 304 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:35.599 that recently too, and I had to get off the 305 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:36.880 topic and we'll get back to your book. I just 306 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:38.960 found that so interesting. When I started looking into the 307 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.000 history of Christianity, I was like, wow, I did not 308 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:43.160 know it went down like that. 309 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:45.200 It's so fascinating. 310 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.920 It's like true and I find it funny though, like 311 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:51.200 a lot of Christians are against the Catholic Church, but 312 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:52.680 it's like, yo, they're the ones who told you what 313 00:17:52.720 --> 00:18:00.359 to believe. It's like, so you actually listen to them anyway. Yeah, 314 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:02.200 not to get controversial. 315 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:05.240 I've been writing. I've been writing about early Christians in 316 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:09.759 Ireland because they're so it's so fascinating. It's, you know, 317 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:16.359 Christianization without Romanization, and it made me understand why that 318 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:19.440 was such a special belief system. You know, I'm Jewish, 319 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.839 so I am not an insider. But this idea that 320 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.880 you could have your saint Patrick who was born who 321 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:31.680 was a slave, right this religion where he's in a 322 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.599 region where everyone's doing human sacrifice all the time, everywhere, 323 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.440 all over the ancient world, people are just human sacrificing. 324 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:41.640 Like there's you know, it's just a great fat thing. 325 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.039 Lynton comes along and says, hey, no more human sacrifice needed. 326 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.319 This guy already did it for everybody, you know, just 327 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.119 work on being nice to each other. And he dies 328 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.559 the death of a slave, right, That crucifixion was a 329 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:00.839 death of a slave death. And then that walks around 330 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.279 and says, in this religion, anyone is you know, a 331 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:06.880 child of God. That's pretty revolutionary and cool. 332 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:10.079 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah sure. 333 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:12.759 And wild that that was happening. 334 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:15.480 So oh yeah, you know, that's what I even thought too, 335 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:18.039 just even like just seeing like all the ideas and 336 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.839 thoughts and even some of the differences between some Gnostic sex. 337 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.599 It's it's very interesting. It's very interesting. 338 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:24.920 Though, super fascinating. 339 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.559 I agree, yeah, and like, and you know what the 340 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:31.440 interesting thing is too, it seemed like the Gnostic sex, 341 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:36.799 even if they had different ideas on certain things, they 342 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.680 all still had no problem like kind of coming together 343 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.160 or being around each other and accepting each other. 344 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:45.599 It just seemed like the Church had a problem with 345 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:49.000 all that. I guess I don't know, but it was 346 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:51.000 interesting to see if that's true. What I was reading, 347 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:52.920 I was like, wow, that's pretty interesting that they all 348 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.039 still kind of colm mingled and I didn't have a 349 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.599 problem with each other's other ideas, they just didn't acknowledge it. 350 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.519 Yeah. I love that history, and there is a thread 351 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.720 of that all the way through human history where we can, uh, 352 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.559 you know, have strongly held beliefs and still love people 353 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:16.039 who don't share them. Yeah, what happened crazy the internet? 354 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:23.680 Crazy? Did the research make historical magic look more organized 355 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:25.960 or did it make it look messier, maybe more local, 356 00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:29.039 more personal, and more human when you started researching all 357 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:29.480 this stuff. 358 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.920 Yeah, it definitely seems that's a really good question. It 359 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.960 definitely seemed very like local and then it also is 360 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:41.480 so connected to language that that makes sense. Right, So 361 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:46.079 like the spells, the cadence of them, the materials they reference, 362 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.680 the plants they reference, but also the rhythms of them, 363 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:53.440 like the stuff from you know, I'm just looking down 364 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.759 at the book, but like things from the pow Wows, 365 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.720 which is a book you know, from folk America, they 366 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:04.720 have such a different rhythm than things from maybe even 367 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:09.680 like like some of the African spare spells in the book. 368 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:16.240 And then there's also this sense of I guess like 369 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.759 things bubble up and go underground. So there's like every 370 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:23.880 now and then this language, this practice surfaces, and then 371 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:25.680 it goes the way again. So it like services in 372 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.799 the nineteen seventies for sure, and then you seet service 373 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:30.799 again in the nineteen twenties, and then we're back in 374 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:34.160 the eighteen eighties, and it's just like where things, you know, 375 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.359 go underground and come back up, and that definitely affects, 376 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.319 you know, the translations or the recitations of them. 377 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:42.799 I feel like I've even seen that happen in the 378 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.039 witch craft the ceremonial community in like the last fifteen years. 379 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:48.240 I feel like I've seen things get popular, de popular 380 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:49.759 die in that time too. 381 00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:53.680 It makes sense. Yeah, I mean I'm not definitely not 382 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:57.279 an expert on that community, but that's that's really interesting. 383 00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:57.640 You know. 384 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.960 I've even seen that with like when I first got 385 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.319 into it, all of a sudden seemed like chaos. Magic 386 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.720 was like boom, it was the thing, and I'm kind 387 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.759 of seeing that again, or maybe it would just passed again, 388 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:09.440 but it seemed like ten years later, all of a sudden, 389 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:11.359 it was the end thing to do again. I was like, oh, 390 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.960 that's interesting. Now these ideas cycle. 391 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.839 Definitely, yeah, and then you know the it all reflects 392 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.000 the importance of language, right. All of these are incantations, 393 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.599 so there are things that you speak, and you know, 394 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.319 the even the Bible starts with like the Lord said, 395 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.079 let there be light, and then light is there, So 396 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:36.200 we speak things into existence. So it makes sense that 397 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:38.960 the spells would relate to the like time and place, 398 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:40.880 the language people were speaking. 399 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:44.359 Oh for sure, especially when folk tradition, that's so regional 400 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:46.599 kind of I feel like, you know right, that's why 401 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:48.559