WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:10.800 Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we produsue wisdom 2 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.039 in the past between primary secondary worlds. Ador Snyder and 3 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:29.879 I'm glad that you're here. We've recently begun our first 4 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.520 free book study, our first free book club, and based 5 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.439 off a patron vote, we've been going through Augustine's Confessions. 6 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.920 Now we've only met this point for our first meeting. 7 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.200 Our next one is going to be let's see the twelfth, 8 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.200 May twelfth at nine pm and then every other Monday 9 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:52.039 at that point until we finish the Confessions. And so 10 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:53.759 if you want to join in moving forward, you're more 11 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:55.960 than welcome to do so. On our next meeting on 12 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:58.520 the twelfth, we'll be covering books three and four, and 13 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:00.600 so if you want to catch up and join us 14 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.320 for that meeting, you're more than welcome to do so. 15 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:05.400 All you need to do is sign on on Patreon 16 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:08.879 at patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. You can sign 17 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:10.760 on as a free member, you can sign on as 18 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:14.359 a paid member. Payment is not required. It's always appreciated 19 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:16.480 to you send a few bucks my way to help 20 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:19.480 me continue doing this sort of thing and all the 21 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:22.599 various things I'm doing through Mythic Mind. But again it's 22 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:24.519 not necessary at all. All you need to do is 23 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:27.519 just enroll because that's where information will be put out there, 24 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:31.200 including the zoom link. And so if you want to 25 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:34.319 join us, go to patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. 26 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:36.760 But for now, on to go ahead and provide you 27 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:39.079 with that first conversation that we had, and so let's 28 00:01:39.079 --> 00:01:44.879 go ahead and get right to it. So, yeah, we 29 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:48.079 can go ahead and get started here talking about Augustin's Confessions. Now, 30 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:52.519 is anybody here reading it for the first time? Okay, Chase, 31 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:57.840 all right, Chase has been on an incredible literary journey 32 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.000 for the last little while here reading all kinds of 33 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.120 amazing books. You know, you need to launch off on 34 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.359 your own podcast or something. I'm sure you've got some 35 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:11.680 things to say. Well, you know, I've been reading this 36 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:14.319 book for a number of years. I mean since I 37 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.120 was in seminary doing my master's degree, which was like 38 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:19.360 it's crazy to think that I was I don't know 39 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.080 how many, like over a decade ago. I've been in 40 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:26.520 school so long it's hard to keep track of where 41 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:30.039 one thing ended and another thing began. But this was 42 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:33.960 in many ways like the beginning of my real literary 43 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:38.879 journey in my love of reading, that especially when it 44 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:41.400 comes to narrative, comes to fiction, Like I didn't read 45 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:43.120 a lot of fiction, and this isn't fiction, but it 46 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:45.840 is very much narrative base. It is kind of his 47 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:49.639 own spiritual auto biography here, and it just resonated with 48 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:54.319 me so much, as you know, this philosophically inclined individual 49 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:58.919 just wrestling with ideas, wrestling with the flesh and finding 50 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:03.199 his way in many ways in well finding that he's 51 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.599 being brought along his way to Christ. Just so much 52 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:09.360 of that resonated with me. That really did begin my 53 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:11.919 love of books, my love of reading, my love of 54 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:14.520 narratives in general, whether it be fiction or nonfiction. And 55 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:17.520 so the special book to me, I did just recently 56 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.199 for the first time read the Sheet translation, which I 57 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:24.719 love this translation. I've been reading the Penguin up until now, 58 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.639 which I mean that's that's fine as well, although I've 59 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:31.400 been informed by the great Books guys that that's not 60 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:35.599 so great. But yeah, So in summary, this is something's 61 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:37.319 been near and dear to me for a while. But 62 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:40.599 I'd love to hear some of your thoughts, all right, Jase, 63 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:42.560 I got to start with you just since your reading afresh, 64 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:45.439 what are your initial thoughts to kind of wherever you know, 65 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:46.520 first impressions. 66 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:49.680 Oh, man, this is great so far. 67 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.599 Very much can tell like kis poll like was influenced 68 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:01.159 by this work for sure, and just so much. It's 69 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:03.879 just insight and how you can see that how his 70 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:09.639 mind was working and wrestling with different sins that he 71 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:12.560 had throughout his whole life. 72 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:15.280 Yeah, it's it's been awesome so far. 73 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.439 Good. Yeah, I guess it is one of those figures 74 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:23.519 that moderns like to diagnose as something wrong with them 75 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.079 from the way that he obsesses over his sin. 76 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:26.240 Right. 77 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:28.040 They do the same thing to Luther, that they tried 78 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.120 to diagnose him with some kind of psychological condition because 79 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:34.319 he was so apparently obsessive over his own sin. You know, 80 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:37.160 he treated every small little thing, you know, as this 81 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.839 you know, incident with the pairs in his youth, like 82 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:43.639 he treats that as such a enormous thing. But I 83 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.160 think what we really see, for if we read honestly, 84 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.360 we see somebody who just has learned to love holiness, 85 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:53.160 and out of his love for holiness, he has a 86 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:56.600 just hatred for sin. Beginning with himself. I mean, he 87 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:00.560 he talks about He's got a line here where he 88 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:03.399 basically says, you know, we are our own worst enemy, 89 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:08.240 that it is our displeasure with God that is going 90 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:10.279 to do us the greatest harm. And so he treats 91 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:13.399 that with utmost seriousness, the same way that we would 92 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:17.720 likely treat some of our enemies, recognizing that we're misplacing 93 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:21.360 that label in the most primary sense. And so, yeah, 94 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.319 I agree that he just from from the very beginning. 95 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:31.560 I mean, it's just this powerful intermingling of philosophy and 96 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:38.519 existential concerns, which for him are one of the same. Cool. 97 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.079 All right, what about let's see. I know some of 98 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:45.639 you said you read it for Randall. Have you have 99 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:46.480 you read this before? 100 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:51.680 I've read parts of it. It's been a long time ago, 101 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:53.959 and I just found out about this like two days ago, 102 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.079 so I have not caught up yet. But what I 103 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:01.439 do remember is just like being surprised, maybe this was 104 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:04.879 partly translation, but just surprised at like how modern it 105 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:07.920 felt like it could have been written five years ago 106 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:08.480 or something. 107 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:15.000 Yeah. Yeah, And just the genre is definitely very unique. 108 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:16.959 I mean, it's been approached as like an early form 109 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:21.160 of depth psychology, like how Augustine gets so in detail 110 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.639 with his own internal thoughts, and it's a way that 111 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:27.639 really does make it stand out largely from the kinds 112 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.240 of things you get in the ancient world. In that sense, 113 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.680 it does read it's a very modern, almost existentialist kind 114 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:35.800 of text, like the way that he writes is not 115 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.639 entirely different from someone like Kirkey Guard. And in fact, 116 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:43.879 I almost made my doctoral dissertation on the intersections between 117 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.079 Kirkyard and Augustine until I unfortunately came across the book 118 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:48.639 that already did what I wanted to do to do, 119 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.480 which is one of the worst things you're doing research 120 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:53.519 to find out that someone else has already done what 121 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:55.680 you want to do, and then you know, got to 122 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:59.759 go find some other niche. But yeah, it so it 123 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:03.199 is definitely a modern kind of text in that sense. 124 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:13.160 It seems like it is right. Well, I guess I will. 125 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:15.279 We'll kind of run this how we've done some of 126 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:19.439 our other book studies. I'm just gonna kick us off 127 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.399 with a thought from early on and then which is 128 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:24.480 kind of go around with you know, whatever stood out 129 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:25.800 to you. We'll start off with book one, and then 130 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:29.600 we'll move on to book two. But for me, one 131 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:31.279 of the things I appreciate is just right at the 132 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.959 very beginning, that we see that first and foremost, this 133 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:38.319 book is a conversation with God, or it's an orient 134 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:40.959 it's oriented toward God. I mean, what you to expect 135 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.759 from a book called the Confessions, right, that he is 136 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:47.000 confessing his soul. He is confessing his sins. He's really 137 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:51.720 confessing all that he is before God. And in kind 138 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:55.800 of orienting himself toward God, he's able to better understand himself. 139 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:58.519 And in understanding himself, he's able to more authentically engage 140 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.680 with God. And so this is back in fourth connection. 141 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:02.800 You know, it's like Calvin said that you know, all 142 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:05.360 knowledge comes to knowledge of self and knowledge of God. 143 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:12.759 And I mean, I go reformation. Let me stick to 144 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.920 the text. Right, So so we start off set showing 145 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:20.160 us that this is an orientation toward God first and foremost. 146 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:25.480 And also Augustine says, so great art thou, o Lord, 147 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:27.959 and greatly to be praised. Great is thy power and 148 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.600 of thy wisdom. There is no number, and man desires 149 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:34.120 to praise thee. He is but a tiny part of 150 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:38.519 all that thou hast created, and so there's this emphasis 151 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:42.080 on our place within the broader story. And so that's 152 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.399 a sense it's a very much a not a modern 153 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:50.320 text in that this there's a stark contrast between pre 154 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:54.440 modern and postmodern philosophy. Where the pre moderns, so they're 155 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.519 talking about the medieval Christians and Augustine, would be easier 156 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.960 to category categorized as early made evil, late Christian antiquity. 157 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:04.639 But whether we're talking about the Medievals, whether we're talking 158 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:08.960 about the ancient Pagans, there's this prevailing idea that we 159 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:12.360 are born into a story and the path of virtue, 160 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.440 the path of fulfillment, the path of fulfilling what we 161 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:18.360 are meant for is in finding our place within this 162 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.639 broader story of reality. That's in direct contrast to what 163 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.000 we get with really the moderns, and especially the postmoderns, 164 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.480 where we start to get this move to not how 165 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:30.919 do I contextualize myself within reality, but how do I 166 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:36.440 contextualize reality within myself? You know, I teach like a 167 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:40.759 million different places, but on campus, I teach with philosophy 168 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.360 with a state university, and this is something that I'm 169 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:45.960 always dealing with with my students and helping them to 170 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:51.120 understand the postmodern climate that they've lived in without even 171 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:54.519 really realizing it. The start contrast between how do I 172 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.200 find my place within capital or reality versus the postmodern 173 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:01.519 idea of how do I create reality? How do I 174 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.759 contextualize you know, everything into myself? And so I appreciate 175 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.639 that outward orientation because it provides so much more hope 176 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.320 because now we actually have somewhere to go. We can 177 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:15.440 talk about progress in a meaningful sense because we actually 178 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:19.679 start somewhere and we can actually move somewhere, which you know, 179 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:23.440 again contrasts with what we get in like Lewis's Great Divorce, 180 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:27.360 where he conceptualizes you know, hell as this radical isolation, 181 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:31.000 which really is his commentary on the postmodern condition. And 182 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.519 so even as Augustine is going on and on about 183 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.399 how terrible the sinner he is and how awful he is, 184 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.000 and you know how he's nothing but for grace like, 185 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:42.200 it sounds rather dismal, and to the postmodern perspective it 186 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:44.879 sounds almost diagnosable. But at the same time, once you 187 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:50.399 actually understand what Augustine's doing, it becomes it opens up 188 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:56.200 the possibility of actual purpose, actual freedom, actually getting somewhere. 189 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:59.120 It allows us to receive rather than constantly create at 190 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:02.080 all times. And so just from the very orientation that 191 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.759 he's engaging in, it provides a strong corrective to our 192 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:08.879 postmodern mindset, which is actually very liberating to me. So 193 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:11.879 there's my initial thought, Well, we can kind of just 194 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.000 go wherever things have to have to move here. Would 195 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:19.039 anyone like to volunteer just kind of share some thoughts 196 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:24.360 wherever you want to go with this from book one? Yeah, Ian, 197 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:24.759 thank you. 198 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:33.480 I read this back in high school, and I've always 199 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:38.600 really appreciated Augustine because he's so God's centered and confessions 200 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:42.440 is I mean, from the opening lines, it's all about 201 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:46.600 God and comparing our worthlessness with God's greatness and the 202 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:50.960 grace that he lifts us to be with himself. I thought, 203 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:54.240 especially when I was reading the second chapter that we're 204 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.039 reading for today one and two, when he talks about 205 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:04.440 loving Virgil and struggling with Homer because of Greece, it 206 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.919 feels to me like he's really taking that opening hero 207 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.919 Mus and seeing me a tale, and he's converting that 208 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:15.080 to a Christian perspective, And that really struck me this time. 209 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:19.399 So I really liked that part of his classical pagan 210 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:23.320 education being baptized into the Christian world. 211 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.440 Yeah, that's a good way of putting that. That he 212 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:32.559 he one hand, he very much criticizes the way that 213 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:37.159 he approached the pagan poets. You know, in his past 214 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.519 how you know, he learned to mourn, but not for himself. 215 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:43.879 You know, he learned to participate in the play, but 216 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.080 not to recognize kind of his own narrative. And so 217 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.480 he very much criticizes the poets, and you know, even 218 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:53.559 says like you know who was aneas like I didn't 219 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.799 even know who I was. And so on one hand 220 00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:58.840 he takes some shots at the classic to at least 221 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.759 a wrong approach to the classics. But the same time, 222 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:05.200 in his confessions, you know, in his own meditations he'll 223 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:08.679 sometimes quote Virgil. You can see that if if you 224 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:11.480 have a translation, if you have an addition that has 225 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:15.399 you know, notes, reference notes, footnotes, you know, sometimes he'll 226 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.840 be quoting the classics. And so he's not against the classics, 227 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:22.639 but he very much is against approaching the classics from 228 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:27.679 an unbaptized perspective, as he is with anything that there 229 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:30.240 is no good apart from God. And so if we 230 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:32.399 are going to approach anything as good apart from God, 231 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.559 then what we're severing it from the very font of goodness? 232 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.600 And so it does have something somewhat thing of a 233 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:42.000 complex relationship with the classics. But I agree that he 234 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:48.159 definitely appreciates their their baptized potential. I did think that 235 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:50.559 I don't know, sometimes I felt like he went a 236 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:55.759 little bit too hard on fiction for my taste. I'm 237 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:57.440 not down with a with all of all of what 238 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:03.720 he said at that level. Yeah, Ian good. 239 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:08.399 Sorry, I get my mute button mixed up. I think 240 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:12.159 that we have to remember what kind of fiction's Augustine 241 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.600 would have available to him. He didn't have a Lewis 242 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.480 or a Tolkien, he didn't have a history of Christian 243 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.080 literature like Jane Austen and Shakespeare and Charles Dickens. He 244 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.399 was the beginning of the Christian tradition of literature. And 245 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.320 before him you have stuff like Appalaus' is the Golden Ass, 246 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:30.639 which I read in college, and that is fowl. It 247 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:35.879 is very disgusting. Depictions of women having sex with acid 248 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:39.720 like donkeys is just despicable, and you can see why 249 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.879 Augustine would be like, Yeah, I think fiction has a 250 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.600 has a real danger of getting you sucked into these 251 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:51.639 perversions and being enamored of the wrong parts of the world. 252 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:53.799 So I think that's part of where he comes from 253 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:55.679 in the literature. As I mean, I did an English 254 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.679 major in college. I'm not against literature, but I think 255 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.200 thinking about the context and what he had available, he 256 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.879 didn't have those those myths that he could reach to 257 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:07.279 that didn't point towards evil in some way. 258 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:12.519 Yeah, I think that's actually a very fair point. And 259 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:17.480 you know, even looking at his context in still moving 260 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:21.600 against paganism, like there's still these very pagan influences. You know, 261 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:26.120 we tend to view pagan literature as literature rather than 262 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:30.679 first and foremost as paganism. And so you know, someone 263 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.279 like Lewis can look from this kind of late modern 264 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:36.559 purity that he lived in, and he can look back 265 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:41.919 and recognize some virtues in paganism that modernism has largely lost, 266 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:43.879 right he can he can find the good there and 267 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.000 find that there are things that are worth recovering. Whereas 268 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.200 Augustin is still very much in the midst of things, 269 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:53.840 you know, operating in Carthage, operating in Rome, and so 270 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:56.240 it does make sense that he would have a lot 271 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.480 more hesitancy towards those sorts of things, there are still 272 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.679 very much life and breathing that that is a very 273 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:06.559 good point. Yeah, Chase, I. 274 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.360 Was just gonna say I agree with the in there 275 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:12.559 and you because I think it was even an intro 276 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:17.279 was talking about how like promised beauty at that point 277 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:19.720 wasn't even seen like as any kind of bad thing 278 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:21.879 at all, like compared to like even in his view, 279 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:25.039 compared to like everything else, like his friend that was 280 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.879 the bishop was like cheering on blood sport basically with 281 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.320 the crowd. And You're like, yeah, I can see if 282 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:34.360 basically all the entertainment, which is what I'm sure he 283 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.600 would see fiction as would have been kind of not 284 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.679 you know, honoring to God and worthy of anyone's time, 285 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.039 especially if you found so much like enjoyment in the 286 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.039 place the lewde place is as a young guy. 287 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.639 Yeah, he talks about how in you know, the pagan myths, 288 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.639 you know, the kinds of things that you know Zeus 289 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:02.039 did for example, or you know, he says that you know, 290 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:04.119 these are the things that people would look to and 291 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:06.799 you know, basically find a way to justify or even 292 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.559 deify their basist desires and say oh, I'm like the gods, 293 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.400 you know, I mean, who am I to judge, you know, 294 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:17.880 jove here and and so he he, he takes Homer 295 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.319 to bat here, and you know, it says that so 296 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.759 much of the pagan myth or just an attempt to 297 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.400 just do that to deify or base desires. And I mean, 298 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:35.559 to be fair, I mean, he's got something to say there, Yeah, 299 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:37.480 I mean what else I mean so when someone jump 300 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:38.799 in here, I mean, I can kind of scan through 301 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:39.200 my notes. 302 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:44.039 But I really like how you mentioned the conversationality of 303 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.920 the confessions, and actually I was looking for it. I 304 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:48.359 can find out. But I wrote a paper on this 305 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.359 this semester for the actually the on that exact same topic. 306 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:55.640 And it's really interesting to see. You know, he's literally 307 00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:00.519 having a conversation with dot and in this conversation, you know, 308 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:04.359 a dustn't is steeped in the Bible itself. Yeah, he's 309 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:06.519 quoting the Psalms, a lot of them, a lot of 310 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:09.720 other places to you, but he's quoting the Psalms all 311 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:13.079 all over the place, right, and other things as well. 312 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:15.839 But it's just really interesting and he's not afraid to 313 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:21.119 ask God questions. It's almost comical in a sense of 314 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:22.920 my and what I've seen, because like you see, it's 315 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.039 like a little kid asking their father, like the heaven 316 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.480 and Earth. Then containing like, since do you feel that 317 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:30.960 you know what I'm talking about? You know, you guys 318 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:35.200 have the same question. It's really interesting. He's not afraid 319 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:36.240 to do that, you know, I'm not. 320 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:36.680 Afraid at all. 321 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.839 Yeah, he's very he has a very humble, childlike kind 322 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:45.200 of approach. You know, understood in the best possible framing 323 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.640 of that idea that he is constantly asking God the 324 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:49.920 kinds of things that we take for granted. I mean 325 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:53.559 like you know, we might pray, you know, God fill 326 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.960 me or I mean you know people people will talk 327 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.119 about God like coming into their heart or whatever, like 328 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:02.480 what does that even me? God is everywhere that you 329 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:05.799 don't have existence without God, and so what does that mean? 330 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.519 Where's God traveling to? And so Augustine is just kind 331 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.200 of debating with himself over the relationship that God has 332 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:18.119 to space, to physicality, to location. And you know, we're 333 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.200 going to see that as his intellectual journey continues. This 334 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:24.640 is going to be something that he really wrestled with 335 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:28.759 of how does how does an immaterial God even make sense. 336 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:30.359 I mean, you know, this to one of the reasons 337 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.559 why the Romans called the early Christians atheists, because they 338 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:38.960 talked about a transcendent, invisible God, and it's like that 339 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.359 that wasn't They didn't have a category for that, and 340 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.119 so this assumed that Christians were actually, in reality, just 341 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.720 denying all gods, and so they had the charge of atheism. 342 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.319 So Augustine, you know, very classically trained here, he very 343 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:54.839 much struggled with that. And so as he sort of 344 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:57.640 works through that, and you know, as he has conversion 345 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:02.759 first of intellect and then of spirit, that he just 346 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.759 continues to marvel in these basic things that you know, 347 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.480 he once struggled so deeply with. And I think that 348 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.839 there's something just so healthy about that. You know, if 349 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.920 you've been a Christian for a while, you know, whether 350 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:21.599 you have a formal theological education or not, like you think, 351 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:26.319 you understand a lot more than you probably do. And 352 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:29.039 I very much have learned this, you know, with my 353 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.279 my twin three year olds when they ask me questions, 354 00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:33.279 and you know, I'll give an answer and then ask 355 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:35.160 a follow up, and I realize I don't really know 356 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.599 how to explain this, probably because I don't understand it myself, 357 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:42.319 and it's a yeah, Augustin definitely has that spirit about him. 358 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:44.599 I mean, I love how later on, you know, he'll 359 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:49.200 be going through his his meditations here and just almost 360 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.279 randomly just say like, but what is time to sort 361 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.640 of go off, like he thinks very much the way 362 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.039 that I do, and he just has such a wonder 363 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.599 about everything because he reconnized is that all things, all 364 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.119 true things, come from God. Therefore all true things are 365 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:09.440 infinitely wondrous. And as as Aquitas would say, you know 366 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:13.559 years later after this, that all the efforts of the 367 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.079 human mind cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly. 368 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.119 And I think that we see that same wonder very 369 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.119 much at play with Augustine. Good. 370 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:33.000 Yeah, just even the very start where he's talking about 371 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:36.759 the line for thou hast made us for thyself and 372 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:40.880 our hearts are restless until they rest in me, which 373 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:45.559 is going through the whole first book, and I guess 374 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.200 the second book too, is just like you know, I've 375 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.640 been at Christian my whole life, but you know, until 376 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:55.160 I've made it later in my like mid twenties, like 377 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.440 I didn't really take it as seriously, especially the last 378 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.400 two years, I've learned so much that I didn't know. 379 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.440 I'm just like you're saying, you think you know a lot, 380 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.279 you think you know everything about it that you're like 381 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:14.359 realize you know, if like babies have are early sinful, 382 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:16.359 like how does a baby send? 383 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:19.400 And then he even goes into that, which was awesome. 384 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.880 Yeah, maybe we should talk about the babies. So I 385 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:30.759 go ahead, what do you say, Jeremiah. 386 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:34.319 No, Joe joking, Agustin hates babies. No, that's a common thing, 387 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.480 I get. I get the comment or frame. 388 00:22:40.119 --> 00:22:41.759 So so does Augustin hate babies? 389 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:44.039 I don't think so. 390 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:46.359 I guess. 391 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:54.359 Kind of overreacted to his his sexual sin in his 392 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:58.960 youth by kind of over embracing the the ideal of 393 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:05.640 celibus and virginity. And I think it's to me, it's 394 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:10.799 psychologically understandable. But I do think that it was not 395 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.519 balanced with what you see in the whole Bible. I 396 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.400 think he maybe pulled on some of the Apostle Paul's 397 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.200 statements about being single a bit too hard instead of 398 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.240 focusing on the creation order of Adam and Eve and 399 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:29.039 the redemption of that in Jesus. 400 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:36.680 Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair that he Yeah, 401 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.880