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Speaker 7: You are now listening to true Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. A narcissistic professional photographer lived a dangerous double
Speaker 6: life as a serial killer. He'd focus his rage on prostitutes. Mostly.
Speaker 6: It wasn't uncommon for him to bring them home, then
Speaker 6: try to explain why they were there to his wife.
Speaker 6: Sexual urges met, the killer would strangle as victims and
Speaker 6: dump their bodies in places he knew the police would
Speaker 6: eventually find them. The evil murderer needed the world to
Speaker 6: know that he was smarter than the police, and women
Speaker 6: meant nothing to him but a necessary sexual inconvenience. Then,
Speaker 6: by a stroke of chance and aggressive police work, the
Speaker 6: wheels of justice stumbled upon a lead, nothing more than
Speaker 6: a line sheet of paper that read list of ten.
Speaker 6: But shortly after its discovery, a task force was created
Speaker 6: and the serial killer was nabbed. This book is about
Speaker 6: the victims he left behind, not the person who took
Speaker 6: their lives. I will never condone such actions, nor will
Speaker 6: I try to rationalize behavior. He will go to his grave,
Speaker 6: hopefully sooner rather than later, knowing the identity of four
Speaker 6: women from his fabled List of Ten. It's a sick
Speaker 6: way of showing people he's still in charge. His name
Speaker 6: is Joseph Naso, and this book will grip you from
Speaker 6: the beginning and won't let you go until the final word.
Speaker 6: The book they're featuring this evening is List of Ten,
Speaker 6: The True story of serial killer Joseph Naso, with my
Speaker 6: special guest, journalist and author C. L. Swiney. Welcome to
Speaker 6: the program, and thank you very much for greening this interview. C. L.
Speaker 8: Swinney, Hey, thanks a lot for letting me come on
Speaker 8: to your show. I'm a big fan, so it's kind
Speaker 8: of cool to be to actually be on the show.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much. This is an incredible story
Speaker 6: a serial killer I knew nothing about, so thank you
Speaker 6: for an incredible story and introduction to a very very
Speaker 6: colorful serial killer, Joseph Naso. Now let's start with, without
Speaker 6: giving anything away, just briefly, how did you come to
Speaker 6: be the author of this book? How did you come
Speaker 6: to want to write about Josep tell Us about that.
Speaker 8: So I've written several other books about serial killers and
Speaker 8: had just come off my eighth book, and I was
Speaker 8: looking for targets to write about in the San Francisco
Speaker 8: Bay area. And I've been in the Bay area for
Speaker 8: almost twenty five years now, and I had never heard
Speaker 8: of this case myself. But basically, I was doing some
Speaker 8: research on serial killers in California and this mister Nassa's
Speaker 8: name popped up. And as soon as I started reading
Speaker 8: some of the details of the case just so I
Speaker 8: could glean from the internet, I was hooked on the case,
Speaker 8: mainly because what I kept reading was his victims were prostitutes,
Speaker 8: and a lot of stuff that came out about the
Speaker 8: case was just kind of categorizing women in a light
Speaker 8: that I wasn't a fan of, especially prostitutes. My background
Speaker 8: is law enforcement, and so I've dealt with and worked
Speaker 8: with prostitutes in the past, and I know them to
Speaker 8: be people, and so this case is mostly about victims
Speaker 8: that were prostitutes, and I thought to myself, you know,
Speaker 8: it's a local case. I have access to data and
Speaker 8: stuff that I'm going to need to write a good,
Speaker 8: solid book, but I could also try to track down
Speaker 8: the victims' families and try to paint a picture of
Speaker 8: the victims and give them a voice. I mean, that
Speaker 8: was my goal all along. So that's kind of what
Speaker 8: drove me to get involved with this case.
Speaker 6: And you certainly do bring to life. Pardon the expression,
Speaker 6: but you bring these victims to life in terms of
Speaker 6: creating real characters rather than what you might get from
Speaker 6: the newspapers. So you start off this book, You open
Speaker 6: the book in Oakland, California, in January ninth, nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 6: and you introduce rock scene Rogash, and she has a
Speaker 6: boyfriend named Benjamin Bennett, boyfriend slash pimp. So tell us
Speaker 6: this about her and her son Shane, and just what
Speaker 6: she was really like, what she had experienced in her life,
Speaker 6: and how she was how she got to this position
Speaker 6: in January nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 8: Yeah, So Roxteene kind of became the focal point of
Speaker 8: the book. And it was largely because I just was
Speaker 8: compelled to dig deeper and find out about her life.
Speaker 8: And every time I learned something new about her and
Speaker 8: her life, it just kind of made it. It was sad,
Speaker 8: It was sad. To hear. It was sad to see
Speaker 8: how her life played out and ultimately led to her
Speaker 8: demise in being a victim. But she was also the
Speaker 8: first victim of Joe Nasso, and so her story is
Speaker 8: pretty sad. As far as her family life, she grew
Speaker 8: up in a home environment that was described by her
Speaker 8: brother and half sister as violent. There was a lot
Speaker 8: of violence in the house. Her mother beat the children
Speaker 8: quite a bit. She beat all the kids. She didn't
Speaker 8: really single out any of her siblings, but rock Scene
Speaker 8: was the victim of quite a bit of physical abuse.
Speaker 8: Not sexual that that I could be determined, but physical
Speaker 8: for sure. And then her biological father passes away, and
Speaker 8: then her mom remarries, and this guy is just as
Speaker 8: abusive as the as her biological father was. So she
Speaker 8: was a fighter. She found herself leaving the house and
Speaker 8: eventually running away from the home, trying to get away
Speaker 8: from the physical and mental abuse that occurred in her house.
Speaker 8: And in what happens a lot of times when kids
Speaker 8: leave their homes, they end up on the streets. And
Speaker 8: you know, it sounds crazy to say this, and I've
Speaker 8: been in law enforcement for seventeen years, but sometimes the
Speaker 8: streets are more bearable than their own homes, and that
Speaker 8: was kind of Roxine's thing. She felt more comfortable on
Speaker 8: the street than she did in her own house. Yet
Speaker 8: that was her mom and her biological father had passed,
Speaker 8: but her siblings were there, so she kept coming back
Speaker 8: to that chaotic environment. So she had a a childhood
Speaker 8: that was extremely difficult. Then she was exposed to abuse,
Speaker 8: both physically and mentally. She experienced her father passing away,
Speaker 8: and then a new man came in her life, an
Speaker 8: adult figure, and he was also physically abusive. There was
Speaker 8: a lot of drug abuse in the home, a lot
Speaker 8: of alcohol abuse in the home. So Roxine just basically
Speaker 8: struck out trying to make her way in life. Unfortunately,
Speaker 8: when she did that, she ended up becoming a prostitute
Speaker 8: and running into what you did what you mentioned earlier, Benjamin.
Speaker 8: Strangely enough, though, ben Ben actually really actually loved rox
Speaker 8: Scene and this whole story when it starts to open
Speaker 8: up and I started digging into her murder. Benjamin was
Speaker 8: involved with the case. At one point he was considered
Speaker 8: a suspect, but he later helped actually with the investigation,
Speaker 8: so it went full circle for Benjamin. But when she
Speaker 8: was a prostitute. She ended up being courted by this
Speaker 8: Joe Nassau character, and at the time he had already
Speaker 8: been with numerous prostitutes. He had committed hundreds of rapes
Speaker 8: across the United States and landed in the Oakland area,
Speaker 8: the Bay Area proper and ended up with Roxine, And
Speaker 8: that was Joe's first murder. He paid her for sex
Speaker 8: they had. Joe needed to try to strangle women to
Speaker 8: get himself aroused and to reach an erection. I was
Speaker 8: one of them, you know. More disgusting things about him
Speaker 8: was that that need to do that and overpower women
Speaker 8: to reach orgasm. But with Ropscene's case, he did that
Speaker 8: and then he strangled her and then took her body away.
Speaker 8: But he did all matter of factly, very calmly. He
Speaker 8: knew of a place out in Fairfax, which is the
Speaker 8: north end of the San Francisco Bay Area, and literally
Speaker 8: disposed of her body on the side of a road.
Speaker 6: Let's go back just a little bit, because I think
Speaker 6: it's much more dramatic. You're the introduction of your book,
Speaker 6: because we talk about again you you capture the complexity
Speaker 6: of this relationship with Benjamin Bennett. You say he's a
Speaker 6: pimp piece pimped other women. However, he really cares for her.
Speaker 6: It's different. She's eighteen years old, she's got this sun
Speaker 6: Shane when she was pregnant from prostitution, and at that
Speaker 6: night Benjamin as doing his job as a pimp. He
Speaker 6: knows where rock scene is. There's an address where he's
Speaker 6: going to go to Foothill Boulevard here. So she gets
Speaker 6: there and you describe what she sees in this strange
Speaker 6: place and what she sees the photo. So tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit more because it's it's fascinating as the
Speaker 6: introduction of your book to find out Benjamin is so
Speaker 6: close people are so close to apprehending him on this
Speaker 6: one first murder. Tell us, as you do in the book,
Speaker 6: a little bit about this incredible scene.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so Joe Naffle shows up on the strip over
Speaker 8: there in Oakland, and you know, and that was in
Speaker 8: the late seventies and you still can find prostitution in
Speaker 8: that same area today in twenty seventeen, so not a
Speaker 8: lot has changed there, but a deal struck. Basically, Benjamin
Speaker 8: gives the nod to the John, and at that time
Speaker 8: they didn't know who he was. They just knew that
Speaker 8: this John, which was Joe Nasso, John being the term
Speaker 8: used for people who solicit prostitutes, had been on the street,
Speaker 8: had been around and looking for women to pay for sex,
Speaker 8: and so he wasn't He was a stranger, but not
Speaker 8: a stranger. And so Ben gives the signal yes, you know,
Speaker 8: it's fine, and then he takes he allows Roxcene to
Speaker 8: go with Joe, and he knows he lives over on Foothill,
Speaker 8: but he doesn't know or he thinks he knows where
Speaker 8: it is, but he ends up kind of making a mistake.
Speaker 8: So so, like you said, rox Scene shows up, she
Speaker 8: gets into this apartment, and she's starting to see stuff
Speaker 8: that in mind, you she's she lived on the streets,
Speaker 8: she's been a prostitute, she's been exposed to things that
Speaker 8: the average person hasn't seen or or heard of. And
Speaker 8: she gets into this apartment and she's starting to see
Speaker 8: stuff that just starts to make her kind of wonder.
Speaker 8: And so the description of what was in the the apartment,
Speaker 8: you know, specifically mannequin's, uh, women's clothing like pantyhose, photos
Speaker 8: on like the coffee table of women that appear to
Speaker 8: be partially dressed. Some may even be unconscious. She starts
Speaker 8: to get kind of a feeling there's there's got to
Speaker 8: be that that, oh my gosh, you know what am
Speaker 8: I doing here? This doesn't seem right. But at the
Speaker 8: same time, she's seen a lot in her life, her
Speaker 8: short life, and so and she's also trying to close
Speaker 8: the deal, if you will, as far as making this transaction.
Speaker 8: So I think she gets to a point where it's like,
Speaker 8: I got to get out, and it's too late. Joe
Speaker 8: Nasso has figured it out. She gets hit over the
Speaker 8: head and is and this this information I'm giving you
Speaker 8: is from the autops these and stuff, so you know
Speaker 8: it's backed by medical support. But she basically gets knocked
Speaker 8: out over the head and Joe has his way with
Speaker 8: with her body. Basically he allows her to uh, he
Speaker 8: kills her. He's now excited. He has his way sexually
Speaker 8: with her, and then he was hoping to get this
Speaker 8: this shot. And what he what Joe was talking about
Speaker 8: when he says the perfect shot was he wanted to
Speaker 8: capture what a woman's face looked like when they knew
Speaker 8: that death was near, kind of a fear of you know, concern, panic,
Speaker 8: that kind of that kind of image is what Joe
Speaker 8: was trying to capture and what and what was in
Speaker 8: a lot of those photos on that coffee table. So
Speaker 8: he doesn't kill her right away, but she ends up roxying,
Speaker 8: regains consciousness. Uh, and now she's trying to just survive,
Speaker 8: and humans will do a lot to try to survive.
Speaker 8: She knows she's in the bad spot. She knows that
Speaker 8: this is not a joke. She knows it's not a
Speaker 8: sexual thing. This is a danger, like I need to
Speaker 8: get out, And she considers and thinks about her kid,
Speaker 8: and you know, she's she's trying to get out. Joe
Speaker 8: starts yelling at her a lot, and he's he's just
Speaker 8: basically at a point where he hadn't really considered a
Speaker 8: murder before, but he did this time. And he has
Speaker 8: a rant and rave telling her how she's, you know,
Speaker 8: just like all the other women, he's better than them,
Speaker 8: that kind of thing, which was kind of an undertone
Speaker 8: throughout his the rest of the murders that he would commit.
Speaker 8: But at some point he decides that I've got to
Speaker 8: kill this girl, and so he basically strangles her to death,
Speaker 8: and it's just, you know, it's a release for Joe.
Speaker 8: So he ends up murdering Rock Scene and now he's
Speaker 8: got to figure out what to do with her body.
Speaker 8: But before he can even get that far, Ben, because
Speaker 8: time has passed, Ben is looking for ROX scene.
Speaker 6: He ends up getting.
Speaker 8: Over on a foothill, shows up and he's demanding that
Speaker 8: Joe opened the door. But the problem is Ben's at
Speaker 8: the wrong spot, and that, unfortunately, because he didn't know
Speaker 8: exactly where Joe lived or where he was, had this
Speaker 8: whole kind of flop apartment, gave Joe the opportunity to
Speaker 8: get away and slip away, And that was what you
Speaker 8: were talking about. Being close, they would have discovered her
Speaker 8: killed and Ben probably would have killed or brutally beaten
Speaker 8: Joe Nasso to you know, because of what he would
Speaker 8: have discovered had he gotten into that house. And you know,
Speaker 8: it would have been the end hopefully or theoretically of
Speaker 8: a reign of murders cremated by Joe Maso. So it
Speaker 8: was just one of those things where destiny had connected
Speaker 8: ROX scene to Joe and then Ben almost trying to
Speaker 8: save the day and almost did it just kind of
Speaker 8: opened up this whole case to years and years of
Speaker 8: him tracking these girls and killing him.
Speaker 6: You talk about that, because Ben has got an outstanding war.
Speaker 6: He ends up in the lock up for a month,
Speaker 6: and Roxceine is not even reported missing for quite a while.
Speaker 6: And then you talk about him dumping the body in
Speaker 6: the Francisco Bay area and then tell us what he
Speaker 6: does with police himself at the gas station. Tell us
Speaker 6: what happens after this in terms of what he does
Speaker 6: with the body and his interaction with police.
Speaker 8: So the disturbance of Ben trying to break into this
Speaker 8: apartment to find his prostitute slash lover, obviously, the police
Speaker 8: are called and the police show up. Joe slips out
Speaker 8: the back with the body in his car, and the
Speaker 8: police arrive and they they detained. Then they run him out.
Speaker 8: He's not telling him a lot. He's obviously not being
Speaker 8: upfront with everything as far as the nature of what
Speaker 8: was going on and what he thought might be going on,
Speaker 8: obviously because of his quote unquote career. And so they
Speaker 8: run him out and find out he's a warrant, so
Speaker 8: they take him away. At the meantime, Joe is going north.
Speaker 8: He's going northbound on the local major freeways. He crosses
Speaker 8: over five to eighty, which is a major freeway in
Speaker 8: the Bay Area, and he's heading towards Fairfax, which is
Speaker 8: just kind of north if you can imagine of San Francisco,
Speaker 8: and he's making a decision, Hey, I need to get
Speaker 8: rid of this body. But one of the main things
Speaker 8: he did quite a bit in this case, all except
Speaker 8: for basically one of the victims that he left behind.
Speaker 8: He believes that he's smarter than law enforcement and he's
Speaker 8: better than law enforcement, and he wants to leave the
Speaker 8: body in a spot where he knows he'll be found,
Speaker 8: and so he actually has a location offic Sir Francis
Speaker 8: Drake Boulevard. He takes it out, he goes travels west
Speaker 8: towards the ocean, and there's a road out there called
Speaker 8: log and Edith, and he drops Roxine's body there, and
Speaker 8: she's naked, and she's got some pantyhose wrapped around her
Speaker 8: and stuffed in her mouth, which will come back to
Speaker 8: full circle to help actually identify and convict Joe of
Speaker 8: these cases. But then he makes a phone call. So
Speaker 8: he's disposed of the body, but he puts it in
Speaker 8: a spot where he knows law enforcement will or somebody
Speaker 8: will stumble upon it and call law enforcement. But then
Speaker 8: he makes a phone call. I did not confirm that
Speaker 8: the phone call was Joe Naso. The investigators in this
Speaker 8: case from nineteen seventy seven and from twenty ten try
Speaker 8: but and Joe's never admitted to anything, so he's never
Speaker 8: going to admit to this phone call. But what happens
Speaker 8: is dispatch receives a call from a mail caller advising, Hey,
Speaker 8: I think I see what looks like a body dumped
Speaker 8: on Sir Francis Drake near Loganitis Road. And obviously from
Speaker 8: there that's when this whole thing takes off. So Joe
Speaker 8: leaves the area, law enforcement is called, a deputy comes
Speaker 8: out to the scene and sure if not, if he
Speaker 8: finds rock scene, and that just was the catalyst for
Speaker 8: the rest of this case.
Speaker 6: Right now, what does Joe Nasslo do. He has a
Speaker 6: habit of moving after he thinks there might be a
Speaker 6: little bit of and he feels it necessary to move.
Speaker 6: But does he move? And what's his next step in
Speaker 6: the life of Joe Nazo?
Speaker 8: Yeah, so he'll he'll move around. In this particular case,
Speaker 8: he kind of stayed in the Bay area and and
Speaker 8: and remember that he's married during this time, so he
Speaker 8: actually has a wife and so he's living a double life.
Speaker 8: And we we often find in serial killer cases that
Speaker 8: these folks live double lives. And when you when people
Speaker 8: find out, you know, they just can't possibly believe that
Speaker 8: this person is the same monster that you know, law
Speaker 8: enforcement is saying they are. So at the same time
Speaker 8: he he murdered rock Scene, he was still living with
Speaker 8: his wife, but he also stayed in the Bay Area.
Speaker 8: He wasn't he wasn't overly concerned that he was going
Speaker 8: to be caught because he thought he had left no
Speaker 8: evidence behind and he was very meticulous in how he
Speaker 8: disposed of Rockcine, and so he was under the impression
Speaker 8: that he wasn't in danger. So after a few after
Speaker 8: a few months go by, uh, he actually decides, Hey,
Speaker 8: you know, I'm gonna go out and see what's going on,
Speaker 8: you know, on this trip looking for another prostitute. And
Speaker 8: in this case, he stumbles across another girl named Carmen Cologne.
Speaker 8: And Carmen was another prostitute kind of working the same
Speaker 8: general area that Rox Scene had been working. And remember
Speaker 8: that throughout probably from the early seventies even into the sixties,
Speaker 8: when local prostitutes go missing, not a lot is done
Speaker 8: and you know, I'm in law enforcement. Now. If somebody
Speaker 8: comes to report that their family member who's a prostitute
Speaker 8: is missing, we take the crime report or we take
Speaker 8: the missing person's report, but we really don't do much
Speaker 8: more after that. I mean, it's just these people are adults,
Speaker 8: they have travel, they can travel, they have access to money.
Speaker 8: It's very difficult to find them, so we don't list
Speaker 8: them as endangered or under suspicion.
Speaker 6: That kind of stuff.
Speaker 8: So with Carmen, Carmen is the same thing. But Carmen
Speaker 8: had known.
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Speaker 8: So she had known or had had relations with Joe
Speaker 8: a few times because she was getting involved with the photographs.
Speaker 8: So Joe also paid women and did not always have
Speaker 8: sex with them, but he paid them to take provocative photographs.
Speaker 8: And that kind of tied in his thing with the mannequins,
Speaker 8: the partially dressed mannequins, the pantyhose fetish thing that he had.
Speaker 8: So he kind of these photographs that we learned later
Speaker 8: were part of, you know, his his fascination with with
Speaker 8: women and stuff. These prostitutes, most of them, are a
Speaker 8: lot of them with photographs, and so he he picks
Speaker 8: up Carmen. He convinces her that you know, they have it.
Speaker 8: They strike a deal for sex, but he also convinced
Speaker 8: her that he can give her a little bit more
Speaker 8: money if she takes photographs, these what what he called
Speaker 8: provocative photographs. And so again Joe has uh made made
Speaker 8: a deal basically with this girl, with the Carmen, and
Speaker 8: then he takes her out and to kind of a
Speaker 8: location up in the Oakland Hills, kind of a place
Speaker 8: not like Lover's Laying, if you will, but a place
Speaker 8: where cars typically pulled over and you'd find some juveniles
Speaker 8: maybe kind of having their first kiss or whatever. Right,
Speaker 8: and so Joe takes Carmen out there. She has no
Speaker 8: concern at that point, and uh, they start to have
Speaker 8: sex in his car. But Joe as he's messing with
Speaker 8: you know, as they're having relations and thinking, you know,
Speaker 8: I think this girl is probably gonna look good if
Speaker 8: I can get her in lingerie and wrap her and
Speaker 8: pantyhose and get her in those provocative photos that he's
Speaker 8: kind of always infatuated with. And so he takes her home.
Speaker 8: He convinced her to do that. He takes her home,
Speaker 8: and while he's posing her for these photographs, he's also
Speaker 8: kind of he's very manipulative, and he was also very
Speaker 8: very gifted at speaking, and so he would kind of
Speaker 8: manipulate these girls and convince him of what he was doing.
Speaker 8: And because they were getting paid, not much resistance was there.
Speaker 8: And so in this case with Carmen, he's having photographs
Speaker 8: with her, they start kind of having relations again, sexual relations,
Speaker 8: and he's working on tying her up with panihos And
Speaker 8: at one point she's unaware of the situation because of
Speaker 8: the moment, because of the situation stuff, she doesn't really
Speaker 8: realize it. But he has been able to get pantyhose
Speaker 8: wrapped around her neck, and as there as Joe's just
Speaker 8: about the climax with her a second time, he starts
Speaker 8: inking on those pantyhose with all his might. He was
Speaker 8: in pretty good shape, being an ex military guy and stuff,
Speaker 8: and he strangles Karming with those pantyhose, and once again
Speaker 8: he takes photos of her, however deceased body, and these
Speaker 8: photos are later found when his cases finally gets some wheels,
Speaker 8: you know, thirty plus years later. But then he's he's
Speaker 8: the difference between rock Scene and Carmen is there's no
Speaker 8: pimp coming, nobody looking for her, and he takes a
Speaker 8: little bit of his time. He goes in showers and
Speaker 8: then he heads out with another body that he's got
Speaker 8: to get rid of.
Speaker 6: Now. You say, August thirteenth, nineteen seventy eight in the
Speaker 6: Contra Costa County and naked and badly composed body in
Speaker 6: one hundred degree temperatures, animals and insects taking their tool,
Speaker 6: a lot of decomposition, but they're trying to take fingerprints
Speaker 6: and skin from underneath the fingernails, and the police speak
Speaker 6: to her sister. So what is the next step for
Speaker 6: police and what do they get what little titbit of
Speaker 6: information did they get from the sister regarding photography.
Speaker 8: So what happens is there's a report of a there's
Speaker 8: a higher patrol that heads out to Contracosta area, which
Speaker 8: is off of one of the major freeways in the
Speaker 8: San Francisco Bay Area. You know, it would be east,
Speaker 8: well east of where a rox scene was dropped. And
Speaker 8: there's a report of a cattle that's been shot. And
Speaker 8: at that time there was a lot of ranches out there,
Speaker 8: and a higher patrolman is not really geared to deal
Speaker 8: with cattle shootings, but it's a supposedly a prominent cattle
Speaker 8: rancher type person and he's making, you know, a call,
Speaker 8: and so somebody basically orders this. This higher patrolman out
Speaker 8: there and he thinks he's looking for Italian ends up
Speaker 8: stumbling pot across Carmen and she is naked like the
Speaker 8: first victim, she's wrapped in she's have panty hose on
Speaker 8: her and stuff and so. But remember that's a year later,
Speaker 8: and it's on a different side of the Bay area,
Speaker 8: and it wasn't immediately connected to Roxine. But when the
Speaker 8: forensics folks come out, they are able to grab some
Speaker 8: some evidence from underneath her fingernails, which they believe is
Speaker 8: going to be skin fragments from the attacker, because they
Speaker 8: believe she's been murdered. Obviously the way she's been found,
Speaker 8: it's obviously she's been murdered. And they also are able
Speaker 8: to find out that when they bring her back to
Speaker 8: the corner's office, they're able to get her fingerprints and
Speaker 8: find out that she's been a they find out who
Speaker 8: she is, so they identify as Carmen. They're then able
Speaker 8: to find records of her being booked in the Contra
Speaker 8: Costa County Jail for prostitution charges, so they kind of
Speaker 8: start looking at prostitution and those kinds of things, and
Speaker 8: then through those records they find her sister. When someone
Speaker 8: gets booked into a jail, they often leave an emergency contact.
Speaker 8: Jill requests that so that if something happens to this
Speaker 8: person while they're in Tusty, they can call them and
Speaker 8: advise them of what's going on with their family member.
Speaker 8: So they officers are I'm sorry. Detectives are able to
Speaker 8: track down Carmen's sister, and she almost immediately knows when
Speaker 8: she sees these detectives that something drastic has happened to Carmen,
Speaker 8: and she knows that Carmen's you know, she knows she's
Speaker 8: a prostitute. She knows Carmen's been given a black eye
Speaker 8: a few times, but she knows by the fact that
Speaker 8: the detectors show up that there's probably more to it.
Speaker 8: During the course of their discussion with her, after breaking
Speaker 8: the terrible news about Carmen to her, they start asking
Speaker 8: her about Carmen and she starts telling them about how
Speaker 8: her sister was meeting with the guy that was paying
Speaker 8: her to take provocative photographs and that she kind of
Speaker 8: had a creepy feeling about the guy. It's how she
Speaker 8: described it. But you know, she needed the money, and
Speaker 8: Carmen's sister kept trying to convince her not to and
Speaker 8: said she would help her, and you know, kept working
Speaker 8: on that, but Carmen kind of liked the life. And
Speaker 8: so that was a lead though for the detectives because
Speaker 8: now they know that she was a prostitute, they might
Speaker 8: have some DNA from the skin underneath her fingernails, and
Speaker 8: then you know, there's a possibility that there's somebody out
Speaker 8: there taking photographs, provocative philtographs of prostitute, so they thought
Speaker 8: they might have some lead there.
Speaker 6: Now, regardless of what they thought at that time, of course,
Speaker 6: as you say, and people might realize the case went
Speaker 6: cold and they ruled her death inconclusive. So now Joe
Speaker 6: believed he needed to move, and so he heads to
Speaker 6: San Francisco. He attends photography classes at San Francisco State
Speaker 6: University in the late seventies. And you talk about his wife,
Speaker 6: Judith and she wanted a divorce, and you also talk
Speaker 6: about his schyptophrenic son, Charles. If there is any thing
Speaker 6: that person that he may have had some sympathy or
Speaker 6: empathy for, it seemed to be his son Charles. So
Speaker 6: tell us what he manages to do and what kind
Speaker 6: of employment he gets and his new life or his
Speaker 6: life in San Francisco.
Speaker 8: So, yeah, a lot happens. After Carmen's bodies discovered, Joe
Speaker 8: decides that although he believes he's well ahead of law enforcement,
Speaker 8: he's got to leave the area. And this fact that
Speaker 8: he was leaving the area was used against him to
Speaker 8: show that he knew what he was doing was wrong,
Speaker 8: and it kind of went against some of his tactics
Speaker 8: he tried to use in court trying to represent himself
Speaker 8: for this capital murder case, but he ends up getting
Speaker 8: a job. He ends up divorced from Judith. She knows
Speaker 8: he's up to no good. Doesn't know about the serial
Speaker 8: killing stuff at all, but she knows he's up to
Speaker 8: no good. They've had a struggling marriage for years. And
Speaker 8: so Joe takes up a job for an apartment manager
Speaker 8: in San Francisco, and he knew the area of the
Speaker 8: Mission District area very well because he had been taking
Speaker 8: classes out there for photography. And Joe was, or Joe
Speaker 8: is gifted with the with the camera, but he just
Speaker 8: chose to take pictures of things that he and I
Speaker 8: find really repent We find it just disgusting. We wouldn't,
Speaker 8: you know, the normal person wouldn't like to see these
Speaker 8: kinds of things, but that's what Joe was taking photographs of.
Speaker 8: But nonetheless, he gets a job at a place, an
Speaker 8: apartment building at eight thirty nine eleven Worth Street in
Speaker 8: San Francisco. And why that's important is because it later
Speaker 8: connects Joe to the capital murder case against him. But
Speaker 8: while he's there, while he's still going to classes, he's
Speaker 8: still his nose is still attuned to the street life,
Speaker 8: and he's still trying to get prostitutes to take photos
Speaker 8: with him. He's still trying to sleep with prostitutes. You know,
Speaker 8: that's what he knows. He's been doing it for quite
Speaker 8: a long time.
Speaker 6: And so.
Speaker 8: He meets these people. He's running this apartment complex. He
Speaker 8: actually has an opening for a apartment, and while he's there,
Speaker 8: he gets somebody comes to his door. Her name was Sharia.
Speaker 8: She comes to the door and inquires about the apartment
Speaker 8: for rent, and it just something about her just really
Speaker 8: got Joe excited. And and that was just the opening
Speaker 8: to another one of his killings.
Speaker 6: Now she's a little bit older woman, and and so
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit more about Sharia and the
Speaker 6: predicament that she finds herself in in this apartment.
Speaker 8: So she so, Sharia had just moved from from Lake
Speaker 8: Tahoe area. She was living with her daughter, and her
Speaker 8: daughter got engaged and they kind of had some some
Speaker 8: disagreements about some stuff, and so Shria was like, it's
Speaker 8: time for me to move. And also Shria wasn't really
Speaker 8: she she didn't want to get in the way of
Speaker 8: her daughter and her fiance. And so she thought, you know,
Speaker 8: I've always wanted to move to San Francisco, So let
Speaker 8: me go to San Francisco. So she moves out there,
Speaker 8: she meets Joe. Joe gives her the apartment, agrees to
Speaker 8: rent it to her, and then Sria starts looking for jobs.
Speaker 8: You know, she's looking for any kind of work she
Speaker 8: can find. She's retired from a career as kind of
Speaker 8: a a secretary, if you will, in the Los Angeles
Speaker 8: County Sheriff's office actually, but she's just kind of a
Speaker 8: free spirit. She liked to go out, she liked to
Speaker 8: interact with people. She's now in San Francisco. She's got
Speaker 8: herself a little apartment, but she doesn't have a lot
Speaker 8: of money to spare, so she applies for various jobs.
Speaker 8: At some point though, during this time, Joe starts wouling her.
Speaker 8: He starts trying to court her. She's not interested in
Speaker 8: that kind of relationship with him. But she's also slightly
Speaker 8: becoming desperate because she's falling behind on rent and she
Speaker 8: doesn't have a lot of money coming in. And Joe
Speaker 8: capitalizes on that in his his way that he could.
Speaker 8: He manipulates the situation and convinces uh Sharia to take
Speaker 8: photographs and he would pay her, but not provocative at first.
Speaker 8: He just convinces her that they'll be you know, you know,
Speaker 8: professional photography headshots. Mostly convinces her it'll probably be she
Speaker 8: could use those two to help her find a job,
Speaker 8: and so she agrees hesitantly. She agrees the money was
Speaker 8: too too good that Joe was offering, and over the
Speaker 8: course of of a period of time, she starts letting
Speaker 8: Joe take photographs of her uh and and suits like
Speaker 8: professional outfits, nothing sexual nature at all.
Speaker 6: Now he's a persistent So tell us what happens to
Speaker 6: her and how do friends discover that she is a victim?
Speaker 8: So Joe convinces her to take photographs. He keeps trying
Speaker 8: to give her a lot of wine. He's trying to
Speaker 8: get her to get drunk. He starts developing feelings for her,
Speaker 8: you know, basically, there's some characteristics about her that reminds
Speaker 8: him of his ex wife. She's older than all the
Speaker 8: prostitutes in the area, She's sophisticated, and Joe just really
Speaker 8: keeps trying to surmond to her, have a relationship with her,
Speaker 8: and she keeps shutting him down. But she does eventually
Speaker 8: pose and he does pay her for some slightly provocative photographs,
Speaker 8: and Joe's just head over heels for her. And while
Speaker 8: they're taking these photographs and some of it was prevocative,
Speaker 8: He's falling for her and he wants to be with her,
Speaker 8: but she keeps denying him, and eventually Joe starts to
Speaker 8: get frustrated. He he has several sessions with her. He
Speaker 8: starts thinking about having relationship with her, and if she
Speaker 8: won't willingly do it, then he may have to either
Speaker 8: put drugs in her whine or maybe have to you know,
Speaker 8: take it from her unwillingly on her half. So they
Speaker 8: go back and forth. They keep working, Joe keeps working
Speaker 8: on trying to get with her, and then eventually he
Speaker 8: just basically wants to pay her for sex, and she
Speaker 8: just gets extremely appalled, doesn't want to do that at all.
Speaker 8: And he sees like he's getting close to having relations
Speaker 8: with her, and she looks at her watch and she
Speaker 8: leaves and says, hey, I gotta go, and she just
Speaker 8: lives up the you know, upstairs, and says it's pretty
Speaker 8: easy for her to get home, and so he lets
Speaker 8: her go. So she's kind of like flirting with with
Speaker 8: a with a potentially dangerous situation that she's not completely
Speaker 8: aware of. So she makes it out of the house
Speaker 8: that day or that apartment that day, and then he
Speaker 8: starts working on getting her to take photographs with these pantyhose,
Speaker 8: which was similar to what he was doing with Carmen
Speaker 8: and Roxine. And then finally he basically tries to get
Speaker 8: the upper hand on her, if you will, and start
Speaker 8: to tighten down on some pantehos and strangle her, but
Speaker 8: she fights it pretty well. She makes it to the floor,
Speaker 8: but unfortunately Joe just overpowers her and strangles her to death.
Speaker 8: And once again he's he finishes what he's doing. He
Speaker 8: goes and takes a shower, and then he concocts a
Speaker 8: plan on how to dispose of her body.
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Speaker 6: slash true. Chris, we were talking about Joe Nasso's next move.
Speaker 6: He as the manager of this apartment building. Naturally, he
Speaker 6: is questioned by police. He's evasive and nothing. He says
Speaker 6: nothing that he has done, no information leading the police
Speaker 6: to lay any chargers or suspect him in this murder.
Speaker 6: So what does he do next?
Speaker 8: Yeah, so he skated that because he was actually interviewed
Speaker 8: by detectives about that murder. Because sure, his body was
Speaker 8: found later close by in Tibron, which is just across
Speaker 8: the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. And so, but Joe,
Speaker 8: because he was questioned, he once again believes he's completely
Speaker 8: in charge of the situation. Nobody's going to figure him out.
Speaker 8: He's left no evidence, they've got nothing, on me kind
Speaker 8: of mentality, and so he he basically, although he's a
Speaker 8: little bit hesitant, he decides I'm going to leave the area.
Speaker 8: At first he wasn't, but he decides to leave the area.
Speaker 6: And this.
Speaker 8: Relocation, he ends up in a place called Yuba City,
Speaker 8: which is north of Sacramento. So he's traveled a good
Speaker 8: amount of time east and north. It's about two and
Speaker 8: a half hours or so from San Francisco. So he's
Speaker 8: moved on and he's found a place to stay and
Speaker 8: he's kind of getting rooted to the Yuba City area
Speaker 8: and he's spending time in the downtown area. And this
Speaker 8: was in nineteen ninety three, so we went from seventy
Speaker 8: seven to seventy eight. Now we jumped into the nineties,
Speaker 8: and now we're in nineteen ninety three, so we're talking
Speaker 8: time is going by. Enforcement's gotten nowhere with three cold
Speaker 8: homicide cases. So he gets into you the city, and
Speaker 8: he knows how to pick out prostitutes. He knows how
Speaker 8: to find the underbelly of a community, if you will.
Speaker 8: And in April of ninety three, he ends up meeting
Speaker 8: a gal named Pamela Parsons. And pam was a woman
Speaker 8: that was was a local and she was actually a waitress,
Speaker 8: but Joe when he saw her, believe that that she
Speaker 8: may do other things on the side, and he convinced
Speaker 8: himself that she may actually be a prostitute or at
Speaker 8: least somebody that he could film, because he's still looking
Speaker 8: for that one shot, that perfect photo. It's similar to
Speaker 8: the you know the surfers talk about that the wave,
Speaker 8: you know, they call it that one wave that was
Speaker 8: just the most perfect way for them. Joe's looking for
Speaker 8: that perfect photo. So over the course of a couple
Speaker 8: of weeks, he starts going to this restaurant quite a
Speaker 8: bit and strikes up conversations with Pamela and they sort
Speaker 8: of become friends. But the whole time, Joe's trying to
Speaker 8: figure out what's Pamela's real story, which she maybe take
Speaker 8: money for sex he's attracted to her, or maybe he
Speaker 8: would let or she would let him photograph him. So
Speaker 8: he's locked into another target. Basically, he's he's convinced himself
Speaker 8: that one way or another, he's going to have relations
Speaker 8: with her.
Speaker 6: And what goes wrong, what what if anything is is
Speaker 6: a motivation for him to kill.
Speaker 8: With with all these women, it was his this feeling
Speaker 8: that women are inferior to men, and they're especially inferior
Speaker 8: to him. The strange part is he was married and
Speaker 8: he never abused his wife, and then she divorced him,
Speaker 8: taking the power and control away from him. So you
Speaker 8: would think that that would have been one of the
Speaker 8: key reasons. But we don't know precisely why he did
Speaker 8: these killings other than what he's been willing to share.
Speaker 8: But he's very circular when he talks. I communicated with
Speaker 8: him over several months. I was going to meet him personally,
Speaker 8: but he's in San Quentin and that's a short ride
Speaker 8: for me. But he started trying to manipulate the situation.
Speaker 8: He started wanting to have money, and it was pretty
Speaker 8: obvious he wasn't going to actually tell me anything that
Speaker 8: I could use to help me with my list of ten.
Speaker 8: And ultimately, what I was trying to do before this
Speaker 8: book was to find out who the other four were
Speaker 8: on his list and try to get some closure for
Speaker 8: some families. But with Pamela, she makes the mistake of
Speaker 8: telling him that she's kind of down on her luck
Speaker 8: and she hasn't paid her rent, and so he ends
Speaker 8: up convincing her to take money for photographs, the same
Speaker 8: he's done before with these other girls, and once again,
Speaker 8: basically he does the same thing. It's like he's on
Speaker 8: repeat mode. He strangles Pamela and then decides he needs
Speaker 8: to get rid of her body as well.
Speaker 6: Now he just continues. They find the body within a
Speaker 6: few days. Four days later, you say, and what does
Speaker 6: that give police? We know these things are going cool,
Speaker 6: but tell us what police get, if anything, any leads
Speaker 6: from that whatsoever.
Speaker 8: Yeah, they didn't get. They didn't get a lot of
Speaker 8: leads because she was kind of in a desolate area,
Speaker 8: but it wasn't it was sort of off the beaten path,
Speaker 8: which was uncharacteristic of Joe because before it was very upfront.
Speaker 8: So I think subconsciously he was probably realizing that he
Speaker 8: needed to be careful with the with what he was doing,
Speaker 8: so he wasn't spotted, but he tried to do everything
Speaker 8: he could do to make sure that there was no
Speaker 8: evidence there, and when the forensic folks came out to
Speaker 8: the scene, it was it was unfortunately frustrating for everybody
Speaker 8: involved because there was a human female body there and
Speaker 8: she was obviously deceased, but there just wasn't like tire
Speaker 8: tracks or threads or DNA or just you know, nothing
Speaker 8: that the investigators could could grab and give to a
Speaker 8: detection and say here you go, go get them, you
Speaker 8: know what I mean. And so they didn't really get
Speaker 8: a lot with hers as well with Pamela's case. And
Speaker 8: because they didn't, they didn't have a lot of lead chase,
Speaker 8: and it left Joe out there and you know, able
Speaker 8: to strike again if you will.
Speaker 6: Now you go to August ninety four, we'll come back
Speaker 6: to Sarah Dillon. But and he is watching this woman
Speaker 6: for two weeks. This is another thing. He stalks these women.
Speaker 6: He watches these women and then he key keys in
Speaker 6: on these women and has it in his mind and
Speaker 6: he needs to have them. So you talk about a
Speaker 6: Tracy Tafoya and again he's talking about photos, So tell
Speaker 6: us about Tracy Tafoya and her photo session.
Speaker 8: Yeah. So he doesn't similar to some of his other patterns,
Speaker 8: he does move from youbu, but he just goes a
Speaker 8: little bit north, basically over the Yuba River, which is
Speaker 8: a short distance to a town called Linda. And he's
Speaker 8: just over there and he's just lurking. I mean, that's
Speaker 8: what Joe did. He would sit and lurk. He would
Speaker 8: watch people for hours and then he would just somehow
Speaker 8: pick something about these girls that were that would make
Speaker 8: them targets. So he's in Linda, California, which is just
Speaker 8: north of where he had just disposed of Pamela, and
Speaker 8: he's looking on the main drag for prostitutes, early evening hours,
Speaker 8: sunny outside and all that kind of stuff, and he
Speaker 8: ends up seeing this gal and he didn't know her
Speaker 8: name at all, but he Tracy was the one that
Speaker 8: he was watching for quite a while, and he also
Speaker 8: decided that he wanted to have sex with her. He
Speaker 8: did not instantly or in the beginning decided that this
Speaker 8: is somebody that he was going to kill. He was
Speaker 8: merely just basically trying to have sex with her. And
Speaker 8: he assumed, and it was correct, that she was a prostitute.
Speaker 8: So he sizes her up, if you will. They they
Speaker 8: kind of start talking about having sex. But then Joe
Speaker 8: the has that thought about the perfect photo again, and
Speaker 8: he just instantly starts talking to her about letting him
Speaker 8: tie her up and take these provocative photos, and she agrees.
Speaker 8: She's she's looking to make money. She gets to this
Speaker 8: guy's house and and it's it's set up inside like
Speaker 8: almost you know, professional, there's lights and it's clean. But
Speaker 8: she also sees, uh, what Roxine had seen on the table,
Speaker 8: which is just hundreds of photographs laid out and it's
Speaker 8: just pictures of women and they're you know, partially dressed,
Speaker 8: some of them are naked. And she sees these photos,
Speaker 8: but she doesn't really give him too much weight because
Speaker 8: she's there trying to make some money and it was
Speaker 8: good money that Joe was offering, and she agrees to
Speaker 8: wear some lingerie, she agrees to be tied up, and
Speaker 8: they kind of about barber back and forth, if you will.
Speaker 8: He then tries to offer a little bit more money
Speaker 8: for sex. She you know, has no problem with that,
Speaker 8: decides to do it, and then he starts trying to
Speaker 8: really work on getting those getting some pantyhose, you know,
Speaker 8: in a position that he could wrap them around her body,
Speaker 8: specifically her neck, so that if he wanted to, or
Speaker 8: the notion came across his mind to to try to
Speaker 8: strangle her with those pantyhose that he could, and sure
Speaker 8: as heck, he ends up strangling Tracy as well, uh,
Speaker 8: and then dumping her body near near a cemetery, in
Speaker 8: the town of mary's Ville, which is just north northeast
Speaker 8: of Linda, Right, So.
Speaker 6: Let's fast forward here to It's interesting too that he
Speaker 6: has to he's on probation. This is again very very
Speaker 6: important to this story, the role of probation officers and
Speaker 6: probation itself in this so tell us the situation that he's,
Speaker 6: why he's on probation, and how it comes to be
Speaker 6: that he is in violation of that probation.
Speaker 8: So Joe's He's also been arrested for minor, very minor
Speaker 8: misdemeanor things actually starting from the sixties and the sixties,
Speaker 8: they are major. In the nineteen sixties he was arrested
Speaker 8: twice for once for a rape and one for sexual assault,
Speaker 8: both of which the police basically let him go. And
Speaker 8: this is in the sixties, so you can bash police
Speaker 8: all you want, but in the sixties things were done
Speaker 8: a lot differently than they are nowadays, and they basically
Speaker 8: ran him out of town. And now it's the end
Speaker 8: of it. But later on in life, Joe becomes he
Speaker 8: has money, he's had some investments, he's made some money,
Speaker 8: he as a photographer, but he has this thing where
Speaker 8: he just can't stop stealing stuff. It's petty theft stuff.
Speaker 8: So he ends up doing several misdemeanors and he finds
Speaker 8: himself on probation because he commits enough petty theft misdemeanors
Speaker 8: to basically be the equivalent of a felony. And this
Speaker 8: is before laws changed in California so that you can
Speaker 8: commit pretty much any crime and walk free now in California.
Speaker 8: But he's placed on probation. He's in California, he's now
Speaker 8: killed two girls, and he's deciding that it's time to go,
Speaker 8: and he puts in a request to have his probation
Speaker 8: transferred to Nevada. And what was happening, unbeknownst to his
Speaker 8: probation officer in California and to anyone else, Joe had
Speaker 8: been sneaking off, if you will, to Nevada and bought
Speaker 8: a place out there. I think he was on Metger Street,
Speaker 8: which is on the outskirts of Reno. And so through
Speaker 8: quest he made, his probation was transferred to Reno. Well,
Speaker 8: in Reno, the Department of Public Services there, they're super
Speaker 8: aggressive and they started doing spot checks on Joe quite
Speaker 8: a bit, and it was it really rubbed him wrong
Speaker 8: because he he loathed, He really loath law enforcement, hates
Speaker 8: law enforcement almost as much as he hates women, and
Speaker 8: really starting to get frustrated by these surprise visits by
Speaker 8: his privation officer. Well, on one of these visits, the
Speaker 8: probation officer shows up unannounced and checks on Joe, and
Speaker 8: when he finds Joe at the house, he starts looking
Speaker 8: around the house, seeing some things that are kind of
Speaker 8: making him wonder what's going on here. The house would
Speaker 8: be something if you wanted to paint a picture of
Speaker 8: somewhat of a hoarder's house, where there's stacks of things
Speaker 8: all over in corners, on tables and bookshelfs and stuff.
Speaker 8: But he discovers that Joe has a advertisement in his
Speaker 8: shirt pocket for the sale or the purchase of the firearm,
Speaker 8: and that's prohibited by somebody who's on probation. The privation
Speaker 8: officer actually makes a phone call to the number on
Speaker 8: the the advertisement, and the person on the other end says, yeah,
Speaker 8: I talked to that guy he was trying to buy
Speaker 8: my firearm. With that information, the privation officer arrests Joe
Speaker 8: and puts him on a violation and takes him to
Speaker 8: the to the local jail for some reason, and I
Speaker 8: wasn't able to get exactly why or a really good
Speaker 8: solid answer as to why. But I was a privation
Speaker 8: officer at one time, and all I can say is
Speaker 8: that when you work in law enforcement, get you get
Speaker 8: these hunches or gut feelings. But something about the situation
Speaker 8: at Joe's home in Nevada got his privation officer wondering
Speaker 8: and thinking, and he asked his coworkers to do a
Speaker 8: spot search, like a full search of Joe's house, which
Speaker 8: was not completely out of the normal, but he was
Speaker 8: being charged with trying to buy a firearm, and so
Speaker 8: the privation officers looking for more evidence to support that charge,
Speaker 8: which would be a new felony charge for joke. So
Speaker 8: he calls his buddies with the probation department. They show
Speaker 8: up and they start searching the house. While they're searching
Speaker 8: the house or finding things that you and I just
Speaker 8: wouldn't keep in our house, mannequins, partially dressed mannequins, rooms
Speaker 8: locked from the outside, like going down the hallway in
Speaker 8: the rooms locked from the outside, piles of women's clothing,
Speaker 8: pop panny hose, just stuff that you you know, you
Speaker 8: really wouldn't see in a normal person's home, which starts
Speaker 8: kind of getting the hair on the back of the
Speaker 8: neck of these investigators. These privation officers to stand up
Speaker 8: because of that, they dig further well as they're searching
Speaker 8: the house for evidence of more crimes, because now they're
Speaker 8: convinced that Joe's up to no good. One of the
Speaker 8: privation officers find this piece of line paper. I'm kind
Speaker 8: of in a binder or a paper binder if you will,
Speaker 8: or paper folder. It's a line piece of paper and
Speaker 8: it's handwritten notes. They don't know for sure it's a time,
Speaker 8: but they assume it's Joe's writing, and it literally says
Speaker 8: on top of the piece of paper the lift or
Speaker 8: I'm sorry, list of ten is what it says on top,
Speaker 8: and then it just lifts stuff like girl near Helsberg,
Speaker 8: Mendocino County, girl near Port Coff, the girl near log Anita.
Speaker 8: So it has these things that lists. One of them,
Speaker 8: number seven was lady from eight thirty nine Elevenworth And
Speaker 8: these t base officers look at that list, they look
Speaker 8: at the house that they're standing in, and they instantly
Speaker 8: feel like something is really bad with this list. They
Speaker 8: instantly assume the worst. They called Joe's privation officer at
Speaker 8: the jail and say, hey, you need to finish booking Joe,
Speaker 8: and you need to get back out here. And that
Speaker 8: was the catalyst for this entire case being cracked open
Speaker 8: and what led to the actual apprehension of Joe Naso
Speaker 8: for six known murders.
Speaker 6: You talk about the task force was formed quickly after this,
Speaker 6: and also what you call Joe's rape diary. Tell us
Speaker 6: where they found this and just we won't give it away,
Speaker 6: but what they found in there rape diary? So what
Speaker 6: was in Yeah, So.
Speaker 8: Obviously when they found that list and when his privation
Speaker 8: officers showed up back of the house, they tore the
Speaker 8: house up. I mean they just went through it. They
Speaker 8: opened doors, they unlocked doors, they went through a lot
Speaker 8: of the stuff in that house because his condition of
Speaker 8: probation allowed them.
Speaker 1: To do that.
Speaker 8: Plus he was being arrested for new charges. In the
Speaker 8: same area where they found that handwritten note, they found
Speaker 8: a brown kind of leather book that would later be
Speaker 8: called or termed the rape Diary or Joe Nassau's rape diary.
Speaker 8: And this thing had over two hundred entries of descriptions
Speaker 8: of what Joe was doing to women and young girls
Speaker 8: basically throughout the country and even a broad when he
Speaker 8: was in the Air Force back in the fifties. And
Speaker 8: it was very damaging device I'm sorry, not a device,
Speaker 8: but book that was used against Joe in court and
Speaker 8: with that, with that rape diary, and it was very gruesome,
Speaker 8: it was very descriptive. And I didn't put any of
Speaker 8: that in the book because at some point you just
Speaker 8: got to stop.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 8: I just have a tough time writing some of these things,
Speaker 8: so I just don't include the some of the details
Speaker 8: I feel are just not appropriate even for a true
Speaker 8: crime author. Unfortunately. But a couple, you know, with that
Speaker 8: book or the diary, if you will, and that list
Speaker 8: of ten that they discovered, basically kind of panic sunk
Speaker 8: in and everybody that was involved with the Nevada DPS
Speaker 8: essentially called in. Everybody. They ended up calling you, FBI,
Speaker 8: they end up calling law enforcement. They put out kind
Speaker 8: of an email, if you will, to the detective bureaus
Speaker 8: throughout the California in Nevada saying, hey, we got this guy.
Speaker 8: This is sort of what we found. What do you
Speaker 8: guys think does anybody have anything to add to this.
Speaker 8: And although they had assumed that the list might be
Speaker 8: for victims, they just didn't have any proof at that time.
Speaker 8: So what ends up happening is they start this now
Speaker 8: they called the NASSO Task Force, and so they basically
Speaker 8: try to make sense of that list of ten and
Speaker 8: so they start assuming the worst that it's probably murder victims,
Speaker 8: and they start trying to figure out what that little list,
Speaker 8: what little bit of information you put in that list?
Speaker 8: You know that I read to excerpts from and that
Speaker 8: are in the book. You know, they basically were able
Speaker 8: to build a case. And one of them that you
Speaker 8: should that kind of should drag your memory, is he
Speaker 8: literally wrote on that list. The one that he wrote
Speaker 8: it says, what did they say, oh, lady number seven,
Speaker 8: lady from eight thirty nine eleven words. Well, if you remember,
Speaker 8: Joe was the apartment manager at eight thirty nine eleven
Speaker 8: Worths and that's where Sharia lived when she was found murdered.
Speaker 8: So that kind of that research and that kind of
Speaker 8: connection made the task force believe that this was a
Speaker 8: list of ten murder victims.
Speaker 6: What's fascinating about this? Uh? And this is somewhat unusual
Speaker 6: and you don't get this all the time, is that
Speaker 6: Naso was in jail on a probation violation and doesn't
Speaker 6: know anything about the investigation that's going on at the
Speaker 6: same time, and his narcissistic, overly confident behavior wouldn't allow
Speaker 6: him to consider it. So but as you say in
Speaker 6: there that this this really is a circumstantial case. So
Speaker 6: they're trying to build a strong a circumstantial case, trying
Speaker 6: to build as strong a case as they can in
Speaker 6: this year, in this very short year, to be able
Speaker 6: to take this to and make capital cases out of
Speaker 6: the evidence. So tell us about what goes on behind
Speaker 6: the scenes in that one year, and what does Naso
Speaker 6: know about that?
Speaker 8: Yeah, so you're you're absolutely correct. He had no idea.
Speaker 8: He was just kind of hanging out in custody. He
Speaker 8: knew that on the new violation, the probation violation and
Speaker 8: the new charge, that he was going to stay in
Speaker 8: custody for a year. He took it to trial and
Speaker 8: he lost, and so he was given a year basically
Speaker 8: as a probation violation. That was the max amount of time.
Speaker 8: And you're right, the majority of what they had, what
Speaker 8: law enforcement had was circumstantial evidence. But as they start
Speaker 8: taking apart that list of ten, a lot of people,
Speaker 8: By the way, a lot of people are involved with
Speaker 8: this case. I listened to them in the book and
Speaker 8: try to give everybody due credit. But you're talking about
Speaker 8: a massive investigation, so I may have missed a few people.
Speaker 8: But my main contact was a Marine County Sheriffs detective
Speaker 8: at the time named Ryan Peterson. He's now a sergeant there,
Speaker 8: but he took the reins because Marine County took a
Speaker 8: lot of ownership in this case, because rock Scene was
Speaker 8: the first victim that they were able to forensically tie
Speaker 8: Joe Naso too, And so because she was the first
Speaker 8: murder and it was the first murder that they tied
Speaker 8: to Joe Naso's list of ten, Ryan and those guys
Speaker 8: took over. I didn't necessarily take over, but they had
Speaker 8: a stronger lead into this case. And and and then
Speaker 8: Joe ends up meeting Ryan, and Ryan actually arrests him
Speaker 8: the moment he comes out of custody. But so what
Speaker 8: Ryan's able to do is and a lot of I'm
Speaker 8: telling you, a lot of people are in paul of
Speaker 8: this case, but Ryan and his in that task Naso
Speaker 8: task Force were able to bring enough evidence largely circumstantial
Speaker 8: to the to the Marine County District Attorney's office, uh
Speaker 8: specifically one primary uh DA Rosemary and convince her that
Speaker 8: Joe Naso was a murderer and that this list consisted
Speaker 8: of these victims that they were able to connect. And so,
Speaker 8: uh it starts with Joe Naso's wife's DNA is located
Speaker 8: on pantyhose that were found inside rock Scenes throat, and
Speaker 8: so that was like the deal breaker. That was the
Speaker 8: thing that just threw Ryan and the whole task force
Speaker 8: kind of in a frenzy, if you will, because now
Speaker 8: they had what they believed a confirmed murder victim and
Speaker 8: serial killer identified. It was his wife's DNA, but obviously
Speaker 8: it was you know, a connection to Joe Naso because
Speaker 8: it was his wife. So it turns out the pair
Speaker 8: that he used to study stuck down Roxine's throat, that
Speaker 8: was actually a pair of his wife's pantyhose. But as
Speaker 8: they worked down that list, they start putting together you know,
Speaker 8: girl near Port Costa's Carmen Cologne, Girl near lag Anitas,
Speaker 8: although it was misspelled, was Rock Scene, the Leavenworth address.
Speaker 8: You and I talked about. There was one that said
Speaker 8: girl in Woodland, which was a girl we didn't discuss,
Speaker 8: but Sarah Dillon, the girl from Linda which was number nine,
Speaker 8: which was Yuba County, and then the girl from Marysville Cemetery,
Speaker 8: which was Tracy Dapoia. So that's how they did it.
Speaker 8: But then they had to scramble. I know it sounds
Speaker 8: like a long time. A year is a long time,
Speaker 8: but when you're putting together a homicide case, then this case,
Speaker 8: you know, a serial killer case that started in nineteen
Speaker 8: seventy seven and you have ten victims on a list,
Speaker 8: it's definitely not a lot of time. But they were
Speaker 8: able to get Rosemary, the DA from Marin County to
Speaker 8: secure an arrest warrant for Joe for four murders. So
Speaker 8: Joe's sitting in jail. To bring this thing full circle,
Speaker 8: Joe sitting in jail, his release dates coming up. He
Speaker 8: has no idea what's about to hit him. But he's
Speaker 8: released from the county jail and walks out and meets
Speaker 8: Ryan Detective Ryan Peterson and about eight other law enforcement officials,
Speaker 8: and he's just like he's just he's dumbfound He's like,
Speaker 8: what you know, what are you guys? Who are you
Speaker 8: and what are you doing here? And Ryan looks at
Speaker 8: him and says, well, I'm I'm arresting you for murder.
Speaker 8: And he said do you Joe responds with a chuckle,
Speaker 8: well do you have cause? And Ryan says, yeah, we
Speaker 8: have cause and we have an arrestaurant for it. And
Speaker 8: he plays handcuffs on him and puts him in the
Speaker 8: car and then Joe doesn't say anything for quite a while.
Speaker 8: So he was very smug, very flippant. Thought he was
Speaker 8: going to be free. He definitely thought he was going
Speaker 8: to get away with these murders. And now the moment
Speaker 8: he's released from custody for the information violation, he's now
Speaker 8: being arrested in and charged with four murders.
Speaker 6: It's incredible to that dramatic scene that you have and
Speaker 6: he doesn't have any ideas. It's amazing how you capture that.
Speaker 6: But also in this once he's arrested, the police believe that,
Speaker 6: you know, the ultimate would be have a confession, have
Speaker 6: the person not ask for a lawyer, explain the situation
Speaker 6: though that this guy has accumulated a lot of money.
Speaker 6: He's made enough money that he could certainly represent himself,
Speaker 6: and then you talk about two fortuitous things that he
Speaker 6: decides to do, one at trial and one affecting his bail.
Speaker 6: So his own representation tell us about his decision on
Speaker 6: who to represent him at trial and how that impacts
Speaker 6: this case dramatically.
Speaker 8: Yeah, as an officer or I'm a deputy sheriff, I'm
Speaker 8: actually a sergeant now as well. And I've seen a
Speaker 8: lot of cases. I been involved a lot of cases
Speaker 8: over the last seventeen years. And Joe made a critical error.
Speaker 8: He made a critical mistake. He is an intelligent guy.
Speaker 8: He's still alive. He's on death row. The guy is
Speaker 8: actually intelligent. But that sentiment that he was above all
Speaker 8: and above law enforcement and above women was actually his demise.
Speaker 8: And it was kind of interesting for me when I
Speaker 8: was looking at this case and corresponding with him, I
Speaker 8: was just thinking, you know, this guy was very close,
Speaker 8: extremely close to getting away with murder, with ten plus murders.
Speaker 8: He does not give a confession. He adamantly denies everything
Speaker 8: about the case. He then later because evidence is brought up,
Speaker 8: will change his story. But immediately he throws a curveball
Speaker 8: to Ryan Peterson and the DA and he marches into court,
Speaker 8: he has the money to afford attorney. He could afford
Speaker 8: a high paying attorney, but he surprises the court by
Speaker 8: telling him. After they tell him he's being charged in
Speaker 8: a capital murder case and with the murders of four women,
Speaker 8: he says, thank you very much, and I'll be representing myself.
Speaker 8: And it just kind of shocked the whole courtroom. I mean,
Speaker 8: you're talking about seasoned investigators, you're talking about a judge
Speaker 8: who's been around a while, while DA has been around
Speaker 8: a while. It's very uncommon for a person being charged
Speaker 8: for a capital murder case to represent themselves. And that
Speaker 8: was a crucial error for Joe because some of the
Speaker 8: more damaging evidence actually came against Joe during the preliminary
Speaker 8: hearings and the infancy of his court case. So had
Speaker 8: he had a normal attorney, probably any attorney at this point,
Speaker 8: in my opinion, if he had just any attorney at all,
Speaker 8: he likely would have been released on bail because the
Speaker 8: case was all circumstantial. So because the DNA from rox
Speaker 8: scene was not known at that point, they would get
Speaker 8: it just a few weeks later. But Joe had the
Speaker 8: ability to hire an attorney, did not he wanted to
Speaker 8: represent himself because he thought he was What he said
Speaker 8: was he was representing himself because he had a few
Speaker 8: small claims courts appearances and he won, so he felt
Speaker 8: like he could handle a capital murder case. I mean,
Speaker 8: that's that's his mindset, that was his mentality. So you know,
Speaker 8: small claims court cases are vastly different than capital murder cases,
Speaker 8: and so that pompous attitude is what really hurt Joe.
Speaker 8: So consequently he stayed in custody the entire time, and
Speaker 8: in doing so, his lack of knowledge of how the
Speaker 8: court proceedings work prolonged the case, which then gave law
Speaker 8: enforcement even more time. And they even did things like
Speaker 8: they exhumed the body of Tracy I believe and were
Speaker 8: able to conclude that her death was actually a murder,
Speaker 8: and then some evidence and stuff from that scene was
Speaker 8: was used against Joe. I just all worked against him
Speaker 8: by simply not letting a normal attorney represent him.
Speaker 6: Now, some people fare pretty well. Obviously we know the
Speaker 6: end result here, so it didn't do well at all.
Speaker 6: But you say that he was rather even surprisingly despite
Speaker 6: his intelligence, incredibly inept that trial, missing all kinds of
Speaker 6: other opportunities, again very fortuitous for the district attorney and
Speaker 6: everyone else involved.
Speaker 8: Yeah, he totally blew things in court, and then what
Speaker 8: happened else. One other thing that really hurt Joe in
Speaker 8: court was because the reactions of the people in the
Speaker 8: courtroom to when Joe was making these blunders and when
Speaker 8: he was communicating with the judge or with witnesses, because
Speaker 8: remember he cross examined witnesses for the case, and he
Speaker 8: brought in some people that he thought would be character
Speaker 8: witnesses for him. Because people were kind of, you know, chuckling,
Speaker 8: kind of like rolling their eyes, like look at this guy,
Speaker 8: look at you know, Joe started to get angry, and
Speaker 8: the violence and anger that he had when he killed
Speaker 8: his victims began to show up in court and he
Speaker 8: would have violent, extremely violent outbursts and call the district attorney,
Speaker 8: the detectives in the room and the judge just terrible names,
Speaker 8: just to go on a rampage and scream and call
Speaker 8: them names and bang his fists. And so it actually
Speaker 8: was another example of how he had no control and
Speaker 8: the one thing Joe Nasso always wanted to have was controlled,
Speaker 8: and so it kind of crumbled his whole kind of
Speaker 8: machismo and the narcissism and all that stuff started to
Speaker 8: stay away because he thought he was in control and
Speaker 8: he was losing it in the courtroom, and so it
Speaker 8: really worked against him. The jury saw that and just
Speaker 8: was convinced, without a doubt that this guy was violent
Speaker 8: and angry enough to kill somebody.
Speaker 6: This was obviously dramatic for police and all the police
Speaker 6: that lived with this case for a long time, and
Speaker 6: also people like rox Scene's brother, Larry, and you talk
Speaker 6: a little bit about Larry's journey through this as well,
Speaker 6: So just tell us a little bit about a little
Speaker 6: bit about Larry's story in this And.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so Larry, Larry was a huge proponent of Rox Scene.
Speaker 8: It was his kid's sister. He loved her tremendously. When
Speaker 8: detectives came and talked to him when they figured out
Speaker 8: who she was. When she was found, you know, he
Speaker 8: knew something was wrong with his baby's sister, and it
Speaker 8: hit him really hard. I mean, he hits everybody hard,
Speaker 8: but Larry kind of wished that he had been the victim,
Speaker 8: you know, he was. He was that distraught about the situation.
Speaker 8: He came to court every day. He did provide information
Speaker 8: to law enforcement Ala Celpo. But he also became kind
Speaker 8: of a pain at times when he came to court
Speaker 8: because he would he would posture, he would do things,
Speaker 8: he would say things to the to the media and stuff,
Speaker 8: and he just he even went as far as he
Speaker 8: had this large bronco, a full sized bronco where he
Speaker 8: would uh write messages. He knew media would be coming
Speaker 8: to the hearings and so he would write these messages
Speaker 8: on the side of his bronco and stuff. But he
Speaker 8: was there every day he gave his testimony. He was
Speaker 8: a huge proponent of the justice system and law enforcement.
Speaker 8: Wanted closure for his family. And then when Joe was
Speaker 8: found guilty, you know, he he had a quote of
Speaker 8: just you know, hey, They asked him, well, what do
Speaker 8: you think now, and he said, I hope he just
Speaker 8: kills himself. So he saves everybody a bunch of money
Speaker 8: and grief. Speaking, he's speaking about NASO. So Larry was
Speaker 8: he was a huge asset for law enforcement. He kind
Speaker 8: of lost it a little bit during the trial, which
Speaker 8: can happen at any at any time, especially when you
Speaker 8: lose a family member and details come out about these cases.
Speaker 8: But overall he was a big help for law enforcement.
Speaker 8: So and he felt he felt a pretty strong sense
Speaker 8: of closure when Joe was found guilty. So that was
Speaker 8: kind of a good thing to see and hear about
Speaker 8: this case.
Speaker 6: So you talk about the list of ten, and he
Speaker 6: was convicted for six or four, he.
Speaker 8: Was convicted of four. He was convicted of four, and
Speaker 8: two of them were tied to him and used for
Speaker 8: the sentencing phase of his case.
Speaker 6: And that's we forgot to mention that one of this
Speaker 6: circumstantial evidence, very strong evidence, is that a passport for
Speaker 6: a woman named Sarah Dillon, who was murdered in nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety two was at his property. So tell explain how
Speaker 6: these two women were not solved murders but yet influenced
Speaker 6: his sentencing.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so, So, strangely enough, Sharia Patton, even though she
Speaker 8: lived that apartment complex with him, she was not Joe
Speaker 8: was not officially charged with her murder. Officially he was
Speaker 8: charged with rock Scenes, Carmen's pamelas and Tracy's, so Sharia
Speaker 8: was not used as a charging but used at the
Speaker 8: sentencing hearing. The other one was Sarah Dillon, and Sarah
Speaker 8: sort of hit them of the girls that he was
Speaker 8: interested in she was out in the area where when
Speaker 8: he moved to Yuba City and Linda in that area,
Speaker 8: she was out there. She was Sarah was a huge
Speaker 8: fan of Bob Dylan. Her real name was actually Renee Shapiro,
Speaker 8: but she she went by the name of Sarah Dillon,
Speaker 8: which was the name of Bob Dylan's wife. So she
Speaker 8: was a huge fan. Some would say a little bit,
Speaker 8: a little bit over the top, but she was. She
Speaker 8: was harmless, but she was a huge fan. Her school
Speaker 8: was found. Law enforcement was able to figure out the
Speaker 8: identity of the school by tracking down Sarah's biological mother.
Speaker 8: And then when this case broke and the police served
Speaker 8: a search warrant on a couple safe deposit boxes that
Speaker 8: Joe had, you know, over one hundred and forty thousand
Speaker 8: dollars in one of them. But in one of the
Speaker 8: other safe deposit boxes, they found her passport and they
Speaker 8: also found a Bob dylenton that she wore religiously like
Speaker 8: every single day, all day. And so those two pieces
Speaker 8: of evidence, although circumstantial, we knew Joe kept trinkets from
Speaker 8: his murders, were used to convince the jury to seek
Speaker 8: the death tony against.
Speaker 6: Joe, and so the faith of the other suspected cases
Speaker 6: from the list, any progress at all, any hope for progress.
Speaker 6: What's the status.
Speaker 8: There's there's no hope. And I hate to even admit that,
Speaker 8: but I've swallowed that pill for a while now. Joe
Speaker 8: Natho sits on death row, believing that he is innocent,
Speaker 8: believing that he had nothing to do with these murders,
Speaker 8: and believing that, oddly enough, that he's still in control.
Speaker 8: It's my believe that he holds onto those four victims,
Speaker 8: because that's the way he is. He's kind of like
Speaker 8: that kid it takes his ball and walks away. He's pouting.
Speaker 8: He's sitting on death row, still shocked that he was
Speaker 8: convicted of these murders, and he my intent when I
Speaker 8: was sending letters back and forth, and when he started
Speaker 8: to get less, when he started to get I don't
Speaker 8: know if this makes sense, but it seemed like the
Speaker 8: way he was talking to me in the letters, he
Speaker 8: became more agitated when I was trying to get information
Speaker 8: about these cases. One thing that was noted by Ryan,
Speaker 8: the detective who arrested Joe and testified and brought that
Speaker 8: case to court, was the angle of saying, hey, Joe,
Speaker 8: just tell us you know who these girls were, because
Speaker 8: we need closure. Absolutely backfired when Ryan tried to use
Speaker 8: that with Joe, and he had interviewed him for four
Speaker 8: hours at one point and then two hours a second time.
Speaker 8: When they got to that point where Joe would connect
Speaker 8: himself circumstantially to these some of these victims, and then
Speaker 8: they would try to plead with him about closure and
Speaker 8: about the victims, Joe would would instantly stop talking. So
Speaker 8: I think when I started asking him about these other
Speaker 8: girls in the list, it turned him off completely. In fact,
Speaker 8: he's he stopped talking to me. The letter stopped, he
Speaker 8: stopped talking to me. Shortly after I tried to figure
Speaker 8: out who these girls were, I had visions of grandeur.
Speaker 8: I had hoped that I could figure it out and
Speaker 8: close some cases for some agencies and bring some closure,
Speaker 8: but I failed. Unfortunately. It was one of the tougher
Speaker 8: parts about this story that I had to deal with
Speaker 8: and live with. But Joe knows. Joe absolutely absolutely knows
Speaker 8: where these girls are at, knows who they are, and
Speaker 8: he just won't give it up. So to share.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, it's not a shame that you've written this
Speaker 6: fine book shed light on a incredible series of murders
Speaker 6: and rapes history, a lifetime of rape and violence and
Speaker 6: then murder, and certainly looks like he could be responsible
Speaker 6: for a lot more than even ten. Certainly, I want
Speaker 6: to thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 6: about List of Ten. For those people that might want
Speaker 6: to look at your rather work, do you have a
Speaker 6: Facebook page, website? Tell us how people might contact you
Speaker 6: or check out your other stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 8: If you type in my name cel Swiney on Amazon,
Speaker 8: the only person with that name, you'll see my work
Speaker 8: come up. And then on excuse me. On Facebook, it's
Speaker 8: backslash Ceel Swinny, and I use that for everything Twitter
Speaker 8: LinkedIn everywhere I'm at social media wise, it's Ceel Swinney.
Speaker 8: And then I do a lot of giveaways and stuff
Speaker 8: on Facebook, So if you follow me or connect with
Speaker 8: me on Facebook, I tend to give out paperback and
Speaker 8: kindel copies of my books and usually I'll sign them,
Speaker 8: so if anybody's interested, look me up.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that sounds great. I want to thank you once
Speaker 6: again coming on talking about List of ten, the true
Speaker 6: story of serial killer Joseph Nazzo. Thank you very much,
Speaker 6: Ceel Swiney. Hope to talk to you again soon.
Speaker 8: Good Night, all right, sir, thank you so.
Speaker 6: Much, thank you.
Speaker 8: Good night.