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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>The Adversary, Old Scratch, the Lord of Lies, Dark Hory,

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<v Speaker 2>host of the nether World. He's got many names, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think you can guess who we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 3>Could it be right?

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<v Speaker 2>With more than a thousand movies and TV shows and

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<v Speaker 2>countless literary and artistic versions, it might be easy to

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<v Speaker 2>think of him as a fictional character. But to many Americans,

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<v Speaker 2>Satan is a real and present threat, not just to

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<v Speaker 2>our day to day lives, but to our eternal disposition.

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps you're the kind of person who thinks this has

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<v Speaker 2>little impact on you, or that people who believe in

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<v Speaker 2>the literal existence of the devil are out of touch

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<v Speaker 2>with reality. Recently, Jennifer Senior at New York Magazine interviewed

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<v Speaker 2>American Supreme Court Justice Antony's Kalia. I'll put a link

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<v Speaker 2>to that in the show notes, but here's an excerpt

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<v Speaker 2>presented for you as a dramatic reading, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>it says a lot about the relevance of Satan in

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<v Speaker 2>our real, everyday lives at all.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, whatever you think of the opinion, Justice Kennedy is

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<v Speaker 1>now the third good marshal of gay rights. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how, by your lights, that's going to be regarded

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<v Speaker 1>in fifty years.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know either, and frankly, I don't care.

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<v Speaker 5>Maybe the world is spitting toward a wider acceptance of

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<v Speaker 5>homosexual rights, and here's Scalia standing authwarted, at least standing

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<v Speaker 5>athwarted as a constitutional entitlement.

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<v Speaker 4>But I've never been a custodian of my legacy. When

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<v Speaker 4>I'm dead and gone, I'll hire to be sublimely happy

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<v Speaker 4>or terribly unhappy.

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<v Speaker 1>You believe in heaven and Hell?

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<v Speaker 4>Of course I do. Don't you believe in heaven and Hell? No?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my?

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<v Speaker 1>Does that mean I'm not going.

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<v Speaker 4>Unfortunately, not.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait to heaven or hell?

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<v Speaker 4>Does mean you're not going to hell just because you

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<v Speaker 4>don't believe in it. That's Catholic doctrine. Everyone's going to

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<v Speaker 4>one place.

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<v Speaker 3>Or the other.

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<v Speaker 1>But you don't have to be a Catholic to get

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<v Speaker 1>into heaven or believe in it.

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<v Speaker 3>Of course not.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh so you don't know where I'm going, thank God?

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<v Speaker 4>No, No, I know. I don't know where you're going.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't even know whether Judas is scary it as

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<v Speaker 4>in Hell. I mean, that's what the Pope meant when

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<v Speaker 4>he said to who am I to judge? He may

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<v Speaker 4>have recanted and had severe penance just before he died.

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<v Speaker 3>Who knows.

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<v Speaker 1>Can we just talk about your drafting process.

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<v Speaker 4>I even believe in the devil? You do? Of course,

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<v Speaker 4>he's a real person. Hey, come on, that's standard Catholic doctrine.

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<v Speaker 4>Every Catholic believes that.

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<v Speaker 1>Every Catholic believes this. There's a wide variety of Catholics

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<v Speaker 1>out there.

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<v Speaker 4>If you are fait faithful to Catholic dogma, that is

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<v Speaker 4>certainly a large part of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you seen evidence of the devil lately?

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<v Speaker 4>You know, it's curious. In the Gospels, the devil is

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<v Speaker 4>doing all sorts of things. He's making pigs runoff cliffs,

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<v Speaker 4>he's possessing people and whatnot. And that doesn't happen very

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<v Speaker 4>much anymore. No, it's because.

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<v Speaker 3>He's smart.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's he doing now?

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<v Speaker 4>What he's doing now is getting people not to believe

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<v Speaker 4>in him or in God. He's much more successful that way.

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<v Speaker 1>That has really painful implications for atheists. Are you sure

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<v Speaker 1>that's the devil's work?

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<v Speaker 4>They didn't say that atheists are the devil's work.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you're saying the devil is persuading people to not

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<v Speaker 1>believe in God. Couldn't there be other reasons to not believe?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I certainly can be other reasons, but it certainly

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<v Speaker 4>favors the devil's desires. I mean, come on, that's the

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<v Speaker 4>explanation for why there's not demonic possession all over the place.

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<v Speaker 4>That always puzzled me. What happened to the devil? You know,

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<v Speaker 4>used to be all over the place, used to be

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<v Speaker 4>all over the New Testament?

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<v Speaker 6>Right, What happened to him? He just got wilier, He

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<v Speaker 6>got wilier. Isn't it terribly frightening to believe in the devil?

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<v Speaker 4>You're looking at me as though I'm weird, My God,

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<v Speaker 4>you are so out of touch with most of America,

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<v Speaker 4>most of which believes in the Devil. I mean, Jesus

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<v Speaker 4>Christ believed in the devil. It's in the Gospels.

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<v Speaker 5>You travel in circles that are so so removed from

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<v Speaker 5>mainstream America that you are.

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<v Speaker 4>Appalled that anybody would believe in the devil. Most mankind

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<v Speaker 4>has believed in the devil for all of history. Many

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<v Speaker 4>many more intelligent people than you or me have believed

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<v Speaker 4>in the Devil.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you weren't sensing contempt for me, it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>your belief that surprised me as so much as how

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<v Speaker 1>boldly you expressed it.

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<v Speaker 4>I was offended. I was offended by that.

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<v Speaker 3>I really was.

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<v Speaker 2>It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 7>A giant, hairy creature. Part eight.

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<v Speaker 3>Part of that.

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<v Speaker 7>In Luckness, a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in

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<v Speaker 7>the Highlands of Scotland. It's a creature known as the

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<v Speaker 7>Luckness Monster.

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<v Speaker 3>More obstrutal.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Monster Talk. I'm your host, Blake Smith. Today

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<v Speaker 2>I present an unusual interview about a monster who, whether

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<v Speaker 2>you believe in his literal existence or not, impacts your

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<v Speaker 2>life on a daily basis. Millions of people around the

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<v Speaker 2>world and throughout history have believed that there's a dark force,

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<v Speaker 2>a dark and powerful entity working against the powers of

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<v Speaker 2>good in the world. Fundamentalists believe that the Bible is

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<v Speaker 2>the literal and infallible word of God and that the

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<v Speaker 2>villain in that tale is a real, impotent enemy of

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<v Speaker 2>the world. And much the same way that they rail

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<v Speaker 2>against evolution, they rail against Satan and Satanic forces too.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a kind of logic era called a tautology, which

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<v Speaker 2>goes like this. The Bible's literally true. How do you

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<v Speaker 2>know because the Bible says it's true. But here's a

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<v Speaker 2>demonstrable fact. The Bible has changed over time, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>a complicated work written by many people in many different times.

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<v Speaker 2>And what I find interesting is that as it has changed,

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<v Speaker 2>so's the content the Bible evolves and its interpretation evolves.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't have to go back thousands of years to

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<v Speaker 2>see this. Merely look back into the eighteen hundreds and

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<v Speaker 2>how the Bible was interpreted to support slavery. The purpose

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<v Speaker 2>of this episode is not to infuriate Christians or to

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<v Speaker 2>cause atheists to gloat, nor to help encourage people to

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<v Speaker 2>question their faith. I just want to examine this villainous

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<v Speaker 2>character who keeps being presented as the orchestrator of all

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of evil in the world, because I think if

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<v Speaker 2>we're honest with ourselves, we'll find that in the end,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't take a supernatural boogeyman to cause all the

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<v Speaker 2>evil in the world. We have that dark capacity all

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<v Speaker 2>by ourselves.

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<v Speaker 3>More Mobstertal.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster talks proud to welcome back Robert M.

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<v Speaker 3>Price.

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<v Speaker 2>You will likely remember Bob from our Cuthulu episode, which

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<v Speaker 2>so far is our second most popular episode ever, just

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<v Speaker 2>behind our Ancient Aliens episode. In addition to his love

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<v Speaker 2>Craftian scholarship, Bob's also a noted biblical scholar and the

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<v Speaker 2>author of many books on biblical topics, well is the

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<v Speaker 2>popular podcast The Bible Geek. So, Bob, welcome back to

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<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk.

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<v Speaker 7>It's great to be here and to be monstrous again.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm asking you here today to talk about one

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<v Speaker 2>of the most well known villains in Western civilization, the Devil.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think we need to figure out who we

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<v Speaker 2>mean by the Devil, because there seems to be way

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<v Speaker 2>more stories about him than just those in the Christian Bible,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's recognized as a villain in both Islam and Judaism.

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<v Speaker 2>So who is the Devil?

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<v Speaker 7>Well? Who is he and who was he? Are two

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<v Speaker 7>very different questions the way it's understood now, at least

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<v Speaker 7>in literal supernaturalist Orthodox Christian. I've thought, and I suppose

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<v Speaker 7>Islamic and Orthodox Jewish as well, the ideas that Satan,

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<v Speaker 7>which means the adversary, began as Lucifer, the light Bearer,

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<v Speaker 7>the morning stunner, and that he was the highest of

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<v Speaker 7>the angel princes or archangels, and that he was proud

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<v Speaker 7>of his greatness and decided he could do a better

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<v Speaker 7>job running the show than God could, and staged a

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<v Speaker 7>palace revolution with a third of the angels. He lost

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<v Speaker 7>this bid and was cast down to somewhere now here.

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<v Speaker 7>Opinion divides. Is he supposed to be in Hell, which

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<v Speaker 7>general folklore imagines but the Bible never says, or is

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<v Speaker 7>he in one of the lower concentric heavens that the

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<v Speaker 7>ancients believed in. That's stated at least strongly implied, for

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<v Speaker 7>instance in the Epistle to the Ephesians when refers to

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<v Speaker 7>him as the Prince of the Power of the Air,

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<v Speaker 7>and also in the Book of Jubilees and noncanonical work.

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<v Speaker 7>But at any rate, he's supposed to be a fallen

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<v Speaker 7>angel who is trying to get revenge on God by

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<v Speaker 7>ruining his creation in the human race. In the Qur'an

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<v Speaker 7>there's a bit more to the story, which has I

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<v Speaker 7>as far as I has kind of dropped out of

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<v Speaker 7>the standard Christian account, though there's nothing particularly animical to

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<v Speaker 7>traditional Christian theology in it. The motive for the revolution

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<v Speaker 7>was that when God created Adam as a flesh and

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<v Speaker 7>what being, he summoned all of the angels to bow

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<v Speaker 7>down before him, and Satan and his compatriots thought this

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<v Speaker 7>was insane. He bowed down to this mounculus, not a chance.

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<v Speaker 7>God must have lost his mind. We've got to take over.

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<v Speaker 7>And then that's why, And then why is he so

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<v Speaker 7>against humanity? Well, jealousy, and he's trying to prove that

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<v Speaker 7>God was wrong and he was right, that the humans

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<v Speaker 7>are unworthy of this tension from God. So you almost

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<v Speaker 7>never hear of this anymore. But that's I think, the

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<v Speaker 7>full version of the legend. But it's based on various

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<v Speaker 7>components that have been melded together to create a new

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<v Speaker 7>origin of Satan. It appears in ancient Israel that there

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<v Speaker 7>was this character known as the Satan, since again it

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<v Speaker 7>was not a proper name, just means has Satanas Satan

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<v Speaker 7>that is, and it means Satan the adversary, implying on

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<v Speaker 7>the one hand kind of a chief of sting operations

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<v Speaker 7>and on the other an accuser like an attorney. And

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<v Speaker 7>the point of this is that the Satan was a

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<v Speaker 7>servant of God. He was one of the sons of

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<v Speaker 7>God who would periodically gather, as in the first chapter

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<v Speaker 7>of Job And whereas the others were all appointed the

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<v Speaker 7>heads of the various nations of the Earth. His special

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<v Speaker 7>function was to patrol the earth looking for hypocrites, basically

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<v Speaker 7>in the unworthy, because he didn't want to see God

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<v Speaker 7>made a laughing stock as in job. He says. Well,

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<v Speaker 7>God says to well, if you've been patrolling the earth,

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<v Speaker 7>surely you've come across my servant job. I'm pretty proud

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<v Speaker 7>of him. He's perfect and righteousness, he serves me and

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<v Speaker 7>so on. And the Satan says, don't be naive. With

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<v Speaker 7>all the fringe benefits you give this guy, he would

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<v Speaker 7>be a fool not to worship you. Now, what are

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<v Speaker 7>you saying? And the Satan says, well, let's try a

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<v Speaker 7>little experiment. Take away everything you've given him, and we'll

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<v Speaker 7>see where his heart really is. And so God says

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<v Speaker 7>to well, all right, do your worst, but just don't

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<v Speaker 7>harm him personally. So there's the bunch of there's an

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<v Speaker 7>ambush by a bunch of marauders who kill his cattle

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<v Speaker 7>and stealing it, and he's God, and there's an earthquake

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<v Speaker 7>and his seven children die and it's horrific, and his

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<v Speaker 7>wife is let's see, we've got that detail wrong. She

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<v Speaker 7>At some point, she says, why don't you just end

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<v Speaker 7>it all, curse God and have him kill you. No, no,

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<v Speaker 7>I'm not gonna do that. We've accepted God's gifts when

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<v Speaker 7>we liked them. He's brought these things our way. We're

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<v Speaker 7>going to start refusing delivery. It's up to him. I'm

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<v Speaker 7>happy either way. You're crazy. Well, then the sons of

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<v Speaker 7>God meet again, and God says, well, you loved me

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<v Speaker 7>to destroy old Job without cause, but at least you

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<v Speaker 7>see that I was right. He is faithful to me,

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<v Speaker 7>and Satan says, well again be Satan says, well, you

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<v Speaker 7>stopped me from really doing this experiment. Let me afflict

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<v Speaker 7>him phistically and you'll see how fast he turns. Okay,

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<v Speaker 7>And this time Job is stricken with plagues. He's covered

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<v Speaker 7>with boils, and he's sitting in the wreckage of his

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<v Speaker 7>house and his three friends come over and they tell him, look, obviously,

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<v Speaker 7>you've sinned greatly. God doesn't punish the innocent, and he's look,

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<v Speaker 7>I'm sorry to disappoint you, guys, but I am innocent.

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<v Speaker 7>God is harassing me. He's fascinating. But the idea is

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<v Speaker 7>that the satan is not an opponent of God, he's

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<v Speaker 7>zealous for God's reputation. And the two other instances of

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<v Speaker 7>this he I guess second Chronicles I said, first, I forget,

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<v Speaker 7>where's the source document? First, Samuel had God test David

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<v Speaker 7>by suggesting he take a census of Israel, and that

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<v Speaker 7>was bad because, according to the Holy War idea, you

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<v Speaker 7>didn't trust human resources. You just sort of fanatically went

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<v Speaker 7>into battle because God was on your side. Well, he's

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<v Speaker 7>showing that the lack of faith by seeing what the

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<v Speaker 7>resources are. Well, God then punishes him. But in the

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<v Speaker 7>retelling of it, it says that the Satan tempted David

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<v Speaker 7>to do this. It's not inconsistent. The idea is that

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<v Speaker 7>the writer figure, well, of course the Satan is the

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<v Speaker 7>servant of God who handles these matters, and he wants

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<v Speaker 7>to see where David's heart really is. Then there's another

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<v Speaker 7>one in the prophet Zachariah, there's a vision whereof God

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<v Speaker 7>is about to accept a man named Joshua to be

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<v Speaker 7>the new high priest, and the Satan confronts him and says, no,

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<v Speaker 7>this guy, look at his track record. His priestly garments

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<v Speaker 7>are stained, so he's got something wrong with him. And

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<v Speaker 7>then the Angel of the Lord shows up and rebukes

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<v Speaker 7>him and says, well, you're right, but we're going to

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<v Speaker 7>purify him and then give him the crown. So in

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<v Speaker 7>every case where he appears, it's just three, but that's

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<v Speaker 7>really enough to set the tone. He's God's right hand

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<v Speaker 7>man in some ways. He's trying to weed out the fakes. Now,

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<v Speaker 7>how did we get the idea that he is God's enemy?

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<v Speaker 7>The name means adverse, but originally he was the adversary

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<v Speaker 7>of sinners and hypocrits. How did he become what he's called?

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<v Speaker 7>In Second Emoch sethan al the enemy of l Oheim,

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<v Speaker 7>the enemy of God. Well that scene, he never appears

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<v Speaker 7>as such in the Old Testament. The Satan has nothing

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<v Speaker 7>to do with a serpent in Eden. That's a whole

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<v Speaker 7>different thing. And nor is he the fallen being Halal

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<v Speaker 7>the son of the Dawn in Isaiah fourteen. Nor is

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<v Speaker 7>he the fallen king of Tire in Ezekiel twenty eight.

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<v Speaker 7>These passages are all always quoted out of context, as

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<v Speaker 7>if they were about Satan. But they're not, as he

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<v Speaker 7>can easily see by just reading them in context. Well,

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<v Speaker 7>what you don't see between the testaments is the Babylonian exile, Well,

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<v Speaker 7>it does happen like in the Second Kings, but the

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<v Speaker 7>missing pieces the Jews, the Jewish leaders, the priests and

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<v Speaker 7>others were held captive there for about fifty years, they

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<v Speaker 7>and their descendants, and towards the end of that time

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<v Speaker 7>the Persian Empire overcame the Battylonians, and the Persians were Zoroastrians.

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<v Speaker 7>They believed in this apocalyptic sort of monotheistic religion, and

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<v Speaker 7>apparently a lot of their ideas appeal to the Jewish

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<v Speaker 7>priests who learned about them, and they didn't persecute them.

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<v Speaker 7>They got along fine, and among the ideas were resurrection

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<v Speaker 7>of the dead for the final judgment, a supernatural messianic

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<v Speaker 7>figure who would raise the dead, the division of history

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<v Speaker 7>into deterministic, predestined periods of battles of good and evil,

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<v Speaker 7>complex belief in loads of different angels, and especially the

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<v Speaker 7>notion of an evil anti god Zoroaspis and was called

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<v Speaker 7>Ahriman or or Ahreman or Angramineu. Well, he was almost

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<v Speaker 7>the evil of God and his opposite, and the history

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<v Speaker 7>of good and evil fighting throughout history is the two sides,

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<v Speaker 7>and the God versus Ahriman, horamazda versus aframan, and every

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<v Speaker 7>act of human performs is a blow struck on one

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<v Speaker 7>side or the other. Hence it's all a great moral battle. Well,

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<v Speaker 7>apparently Jewish thinkers kind of liked this idea because the

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<v Speaker 7>notion of God had become increasingly rationalized and moralized. The

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<v Speaker 7>holiness of God had originally simply meant the uncanny otherness

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<v Speaker 7>of God. God was really beyond human good and evil,

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<v Speaker 7>like we would be beyond the rules we set for

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<v Speaker 7>our pets not to wet the carpet and all that

301
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<v Speaker 7>we're not to worry about that. So now thinking of

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<v Speaker 7>God as morally righteous, redefining holiness, now you had some

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<v Speaker 7>explaining to do. Where could evil have come from if

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<v Speaker 7>there is just one God? Well, the Zoroastrian said, well,

305
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<v Speaker 7>there's kind of two gods. One of them is evil. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 7>that means the good God is not all powerful, though

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<v Speaker 7>he will win in the end. He would eradicate evil

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<v Speaker 7>right now if he could, but he's not unopposed. And

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<v Speaker 7>that sounded pretty good to Jewish thinkers, who said, all right,

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<v Speaker 7>maybe somebody else is the author of evil. And though

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<v Speaker 7>they wanted to be strict monotheists, by that time, so

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<v Speaker 7>they couldn't have a second God. So they said, well,

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<v Speaker 7>how about if there was an angel who fell and

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<v Speaker 7>became God's enemy. That didn't quite solve the philosophical problem,

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<v Speaker 7>but that does seem to be where it came from.

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<v Speaker 7>In other words, they reinterpreted Satan to be afrem on,

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<v Speaker 7>the evil enemy of the good God. And that starts

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<v Speaker 7>appearing in various works that didn't make it into the

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<v Speaker 7>biblical canon, the Book of Jubileese, first and Second Emoch,

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<v Speaker 7>the Life of Adam and Eve, the Apocalypse of Moses,

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<v Speaker 7>and various others. And that's in place by the time

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<v Speaker 7>of the New Testament. And I'll end this in just

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<v Speaker 7>second mercifully. But the New Testament still usually depicts Satan

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<v Speaker 7>as a kind of a one who puts the anointed

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<v Speaker 7>of God through their paces to test them. Not evil,

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<v Speaker 7>just trying to make sure people are what they're cracked

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<v Speaker 7>up to me, which is why he takes Jesus out

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<v Speaker 7>into the desert to test him. If you're the son

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<v Speaker 7>of God, how about this has pretty good idea, is

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<v Speaker 7>and what do you think? And Jesus sees through it

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<v Speaker 7>and won't do it. Satan's not trying to get him

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<v Speaker 7>to do the wrong thing. He's just trying to see

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<v Speaker 7>if he will do the wrong thing. Then let's see

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<v Speaker 7>when Jesus accuses Peter of being Satan. Get behind me, Satan,

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<v Speaker 7>because he's trying to persuade him not to go to

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<v Speaker 7>the cross. Well, that's the whole idea. He will Jesus

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<v Speaker 7>give in to this test and he doesn't. At the

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<v Speaker 7>Last Supper, he warns the disciples they're going to all

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<v Speaker 7>fall away and run away, and he says, Satan has

340
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<v Speaker 7>demanded his right to test you all like wheat from

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<v Speaker 7>the chaff. Yeah, that's what he does. That's his job

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<v Speaker 7>on God's behalf. Then in the Book of Revelation, we

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<v Speaker 7>have a bit of this idea that Satan is a

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<v Speaker 7>fallen angel. But this battle in Heaven occurs at the

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<v Speaker 7>end of the age, and Satan is called the accuser

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<v Speaker 7>of the Brethren. Well, yeah, and that's the whole idea.

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<v Speaker 7>He's doing a good service to God that way. Satan,

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<v Speaker 7>even in the New Testament, appears only as an evil

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<v Speaker 7>character only when he's been combined with other originally tinct beings.

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<v Speaker 7>One of them is Ahreman. He's not named in the

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<v Speaker 7>New Testament but that's in the background. Then secondly, when

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<v Speaker 7>he's combined with beelzen Bull, the Prince of Demons in

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<v Speaker 7>Mark chapter three, that's a whole separate character that originally

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<v Speaker 7>was some sort of Phoenician god. It didn't really have

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<v Speaker 7>anything to do with the biblical Satan. And the third

356
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<v Speaker 7>one is in the Book of Revelation where they conflate

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<v Speaker 7>Satan with Leviath and the seven headed chaos dragon that's

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<v Speaker 7>mentioned several times in the Old Testament of this ancient

359
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<v Speaker 7>creation myth where God like Marduke and Indra and various

360
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<v Speaker 7>other deities created the earth out of the carcass of

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<v Speaker 7>a dragon that he slew. So when Satan is combined

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<v Speaker 7>with the seven headed serpent, then he's evil, but there's

363
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<v Speaker 7>no unanimity of thought even in the New Testament, and

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<v Speaker 7>more often the not he's a good guy there. So

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<v Speaker 7>you really have a post biblical development into Satan the

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<v Speaker 7>evil one.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, just to let you know you've you've tore through

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<v Speaker 2>about my first five questions almost in exactly the order

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to ask them. This is amazing. So

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to ask one, which was how did

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<v Speaker 2>Satan get so many nicknames? But I think what you

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<v Speaker 2>just said is that after I guess the development of

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<v Speaker 2>the Bible. So when would that have been after? So

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<v Speaker 2>by the time of Jesus he was still considered to

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<v Speaker 2>be a tempter, or at least by the time the

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<v Speaker 2>Gospels were written.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, and it's not absolutely clear that he's more than that,

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<v Speaker 7>except in the Beelzebowl controversy or the King James the

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<v Speaker 7>beelzebab those different god where he's they say Jesus is

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<v Speaker 7>casting out demons by magic. He's bound the power of Beelzebo,

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<v Speaker 7>the Prince of demons, which exorcis Saxon. He did. Jesus

382
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<v Speaker 7>goes on to defend the ideas I read it, you

383
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<v Speaker 7>can't despoil a man of his goods unless you bind

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<v Speaker 7>him first, and this is the rational for appealing to

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<v Speaker 7>the power of the Prince of the demons to order

386
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<v Speaker 7>around his subordinates so they no longer infest and possess people. Well,

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<v Speaker 7>so it's not absolutely clear there that Satan is the

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<v Speaker 7>bad guy, but that's about as close as you come

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<v Speaker 7>in the Gospels.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, So how much of Satan's history actually comes from

391
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<v Speaker 2>other popular fiction or folklore or I'm not sure what

392
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:40.039
<v Speaker 2>else to call it what do you call the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of belief developments that happen after the canonical religious prescription.

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<v Speaker 7>Well, the tricky part is that it happens in a

395
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<v Speaker 7>kind of a gap between the Old and New Testaments.

396
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:58.720
<v Speaker 7>It's a product of folk religious belief, So I guess

397
00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:02.079
<v Speaker 7>you could say folklore. But it just like the assumption

398
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<v Speaker 7>of the virgin Mary became in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary,

399
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:10.680
<v Speaker 7>it was apparently popular Catholic piety that eventually became official doctrine.

400
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<v Speaker 7>That seems to be what happened here. That there were

401
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<v Speaker 7>different theories, for instance, as to who the demons were.

402
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:20.839
<v Speaker 7>Of course, it was like an ancient diagnostic category. They

403
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:24.559
<v Speaker 7>didn't know anything about abnormal psychology, and especially when people

404
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.880
<v Speaker 7>had epileptic seizures, they said, oh, a demon has seized,

405
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.240
<v Speaker 7>because what epilepsy means to be seized upon in Greek?

406
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:36.400
<v Speaker 7>And so who were these demons? And various people said, well,

407
00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:39.319
<v Speaker 7>they must be ghosts of the dead who haven't gone

408
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:42.920
<v Speaker 7>on to paradise, and others said no, God just created

409
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:47.559
<v Speaker 7>some bodyless creatures at the dawn of creation, and they

410
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:50.759
<v Speaker 7>would like to have physical warmth, so they try to

411
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.799
<v Speaker 7>they're squatters in other people's bodies. They said, no, they're

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<v Speaker 7>the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters

413
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<v Speaker 7>of men who twisting led to the flood of Noah

414
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:07.039
<v Speaker 7>and Genesis six, and then another one was, well, maybe

415
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.440
<v Speaker 7>they are the sons of God. Back in Genesis six.

416
00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:15.880
<v Speaker 7>That was originally a story about why a group called

417
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<v Speaker 7>the Rephaem or the Anachem in Canaan were so tall.

418
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.039
<v Speaker 7>Most people were shrimpy and these people were over six

419
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.279
<v Speaker 7>feet and what made him that way? And they kind

420
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.480
<v Speaker 7>of figured out they must have had divine ancestors, they

421
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:35.200
<v Speaker 7>must be descended from demigods. And so you had Genesis six, one, two,

422
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:40.240
<v Speaker 7>and four outside of the flood story originally, which said, well,

423
00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:44.240
<v Speaker 7>these people are the result of the result of the

424
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:47.880
<v Speaker 7>mating of the sons of God, the lesser gods, that

425
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.039
<v Speaker 7>God is appointed in charge of the nations mating with

426
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:52.000
<v Speaker 7>mortal women.

427
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.599
<v Speaker 3>And is it the nephelem, Yeah.

428
00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:59.079
<v Speaker 7>Which kind of looks like the Hebrew word for fallen.

429
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:02.960
<v Speaker 7>So the legend may have grown as an attempt, as

430
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:05.440
<v Speaker 7>often happens in the Old Testament, to explain the name

431
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:10.759
<v Speaker 7>nobody understood anymore. So they're the fallen ones. But originally

432
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:16.240
<v Speaker 7>there's nothing bad about this. It's just like Hercules is

433
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:20.759
<v Speaker 7>so strong because he's a demigod, the God, divine Father,

434
00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:25.319
<v Speaker 7>a mortal mother. And it was no problem. But as

435
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.319
<v Speaker 7>Judaism crept closer and closer to Monotheism, they couldn't have

436
00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:34.519
<v Speaker 7>sons of God. There couldn't be seven be subordinate beings

437
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:37.160
<v Speaker 7>in charge of the other nations. So they demoted them

438
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:42.680
<v Speaker 7>to angels, created beings. And now the idea that they

439
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:46.240
<v Speaker 7>should mate with mortal women just seemed pagan and evil,

440
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.200
<v Speaker 7>and so the story had to be reinterpreted as the

441
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:53.920
<v Speaker 7>fall of the angels. Now that's still not Satan, but

442
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:57.319
<v Speaker 7>Satan gets tied in with this in the Book of

443
00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:00.960
<v Speaker 7>Jubilees and First Enoch and so forth, where we're told

444
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:05.160
<v Speaker 7>that after Satan rebelled against God, he recruited these sons

445
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:08.480
<v Speaker 7>of God. And there are various versions of this in

446
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.960
<v Speaker 7>the few books we still have from this period. So

447
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:21.359
<v Speaker 7>it's like a folkloric embellishment of what is what you

448
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:24.319
<v Speaker 7>do see surfacing in the Old Testament here and there,

449
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:28.400
<v Speaker 7>especially when people no longer quite understood what the original

450
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:32.599
<v Speaker 7>point was and patched some of these stories together. And

451
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:37.559
<v Speaker 7>once you bring in Isaiah fourteen and Ezekiel twenty eight

452
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.880
<v Speaker 7>about some kind of angel or Adam figure or something,

453
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.279
<v Speaker 7>and you just ignore the original context. Well, suddenly you've

454
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.759
<v Speaker 7>got a whole biography of Satan here, and a lot

455
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.640
<v Speaker 7>of it is taken from granted by the New Testament writers.

456
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:55.599
<v Speaker 7>First John refers to Caine being a murderer, or where

457
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:58.880
<v Speaker 7>did this come from? Why is he such a bad seed? Well,

458
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:04.720
<v Speaker 7>because Eve was impregnated by Satan, and the First John

459
00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:08.359
<v Speaker 7>says that he was of the evil one and that's

460
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.319
<v Speaker 7>why he murdered his brother. And second Corinthians it says

461
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:16.599
<v Speaker 7>that Eve was seduced by Satan, and this is made

462
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:19.119
<v Speaker 7>explicit in the Life of Adam and Eve and other

463
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:22.480
<v Speaker 7>of these works. So a lot of these are so

464
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.599
<v Speaker 7>offensive to any kind of theology today that they get

465
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.440
<v Speaker 7>reinterpreted again to take the barb out of the tale

466
00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:30.720
<v Speaker 7>of it.

467
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:39.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, so, I think, growing up in a very fundamentalist family,

468
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:42.839
<v Speaker 2>I had always been told that demons were all fallen angels,

469
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.519
<v Speaker 2>And I don't think that's actually scriptural. That just seems

470
00:29:46.519 --> 00:29:50.640
<v Speaker 2>to have come from somewhere like just gets does that

471
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 2>seem I mean, do you know of any scriptural origin

472
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:54.359
<v Speaker 2>for that idea.

473
00:29:55.799 --> 00:30:00.319
<v Speaker 7>No, it's not unlikely that that's what the gospel writers thought,

474
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.920
<v Speaker 7>but they don't really say so. And one of the

475
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:07.000
<v Speaker 7>most important exorcism story is that of the Gallerine or

476
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.000
<v Speaker 7>Garrisine demoniac in Mark five. I think it is where

477
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:15.000
<v Speaker 7>it implies that the legion of demons infesting this guy

478
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:17.880
<v Speaker 7>are the ghosts of the dead in the cemetery that

479
00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:20.759
<v Speaker 7>he lives in, which is why he lives there and

480
00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:23.559
<v Speaker 7>why when Jesus threatens to kick him out, they don't

481
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:26.799
<v Speaker 7>want to leave the area. Why is that, Well, because

482
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.319
<v Speaker 7>I think because they're the ghosts of the dead there.

483
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.599
<v Speaker 7>And so there's a big hint that not everybody in

484
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.279
<v Speaker 7>the Christian orbit believed that they were fallen angels. The

485
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:45.240
<v Speaker 7>idea of the principalities and powers that there are demonic well,

486
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.039
<v Speaker 7>the heavenly forces of wickedness, as Ephesian says, for instance,

487
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.160
<v Speaker 7>that is part of the fall of the sons of

488
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.400
<v Speaker 7>God idea. And this is a profound myth and the

489
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:01.279
<v Speaker 7>true Boltmanian sense, that is a myth that that explains

490
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:06.720
<v Speaker 7>and articulates a group's understanding of their position in the world.

491
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:11.440
<v Speaker 7>People realized that you couldn't have chaos, an anarchy, the

492
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.160
<v Speaker 7>war of all against all. It was better to stem

493
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:19.640
<v Speaker 7>the chaos with government. But everybody knows government is wicked,

494
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:23.400
<v Speaker 7>as we're seeing more and more day, and so it

495
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.519
<v Speaker 7>may be like the mafia run in Chicago, but it's

496
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:29.880
<v Speaker 7>better than just endless violence in the streets. And so

497
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:35.839
<v Speaker 7>they had this sophisticated myth that the nations are ruled

498
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:41.240
<v Speaker 7>by fallen angels the principalities and powers, and one day

499
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.039
<v Speaker 7>God will end that rule and rule directly, and then

500
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.279
<v Speaker 7>the millennia will arrive. But until then even this is

501
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:52.519
<v Speaker 7>better than nothing. And so the foreign angels were understood

502
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.359
<v Speaker 7>to be these evil powers behind the human thrones of

503
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:04.200
<v Speaker 7>the nations, not necessarily the pesty demons that caused epileptic fits,

504
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.920
<v Speaker 7>and seems like in the Exorcist, that's not quite the

505
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:10.599
<v Speaker 7>same thing. And yet there is some reason to think

506
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:14.920
<v Speaker 7>these guys were believed to be fallen angels. I believe

507
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:18.400
<v Speaker 7>it's in the Book of Jubilees, where it says that Mastema,

508
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:23.240
<v Speaker 7>who's apparently Satan, is after his big done seat God.

509
00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:26.440
<v Speaker 7>He is tossed down to one of the lower heavens,

510
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:29.920
<v Speaker 7>and most of his minions are going to be cast

511
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.319
<v Speaker 7>into the nether world of darkness, of a feature drawn

512
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:38.480
<v Speaker 7>right out of Hesiod in Greek mythology. But Mastema says, well, look,

513
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:43.079
<v Speaker 7>I am to be the scourge of sinners, right, so

514
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:46.359
<v Speaker 7>why don't you give me ten percent of the fallen

515
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 7>angels to do my dirty work? And that would appear

516
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.319
<v Speaker 7>to be the possessing demons.

517
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:52.599
<v Speaker 3>So that.

518
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:57.480
<v Speaker 7>Link is made, but that doesn't seem even to be

519
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:00.680
<v Speaker 7>the original point of the fall even that seems to

520
00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:04.559
<v Speaker 7>be an embellishment combining different different myths.

521
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, at least nobody believes that that these powers are

522
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:16.200
<v Speaker 2>controlling people today, who, of course are of course, I

523
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:19.079
<v Speaker 2>grew up like I grew up with the uh was

524
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:23.680
<v Speaker 2>that Hal Lindsey, Yeah, and that that sort of mentality,

525
00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:25.599
<v Speaker 2>So like in the in the in the nineteen eighties,

526
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I was really aware of these sort of vast, dark

527
00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:31.839
<v Speaker 2>Satanic conspiracies which are supposed to be at play in America.

528
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:33.880
<v Speaker 3>And it turns out that a lot.

529
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Of this, especially some of these satanic cults and UH

530
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:41.319
<v Speaker 2>stories about children being murdered and stuff, were actually coming

531
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:46.839
<v Speaker 2>out of recovered memory, type of behavior which has now

532
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:50.440
<v Speaker 2>been shown to be able to make people believe really

533
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:56.640
<v Speaker 2>amazingly unlikely or implausible or impossible sort of things. And

534
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.000
<v Speaker 2>and then some of it seemed to be just a

535
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.920
<v Speaker 2>really imagic inative but paranoid people I'm going to say,

536
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:06.920
<v Speaker 2>making up or confabulating. But in that same time period,

537
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.639
<v Speaker 2>I heard people say that Jimmy Carter was the Antichrist,

538
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:12.199
<v Speaker 2>Bill Clinton was the Antichrist. I hear people saying Barack

539
00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Obama's the Antichrist, so you know, and then there's this

540
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:21.320
<v Speaker 2>sort of satanic apocalyptic literature that's super popular, selling lots

541
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>and lots of books. But how's that whole Satanic apocalypse

542
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:26.400
<v Speaker 2>coming along?

543
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:28.880
<v Speaker 3>I mean, is that working out? Okay?

544
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.199
<v Speaker 7>Well, I don't know who is still saying that, because

545
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:36.719
<v Speaker 7>I'm in less close touch with the people that know

546
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.639
<v Speaker 7>about it than I used to be. But there were

547
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:41.079
<v Speaker 7>various people that at least three of them I can

548
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:43.159
<v Speaker 7>think of, that claimed to have been back in the

549
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:47.039
<v Speaker 7>late seventies Satanic high priests and all of that, And

550
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:49.920
<v Speaker 7>Mike Warnicky was one of them, and he was just

551
00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:53.000
<v Speaker 7>a con man. He was simply making it up. And

552
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:56.559
<v Speaker 7>there were others that appeared to be more paranoids and

553
00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:59.280
<v Speaker 7>believed it. But there was snow grounds for it, and

554
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:02.719
<v Speaker 7>then that was founded by this recovered memory nonsense, which

555
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:06.039
<v Speaker 7>is really just like a redo the Salem witch trials,

556
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.920
<v Speaker 7>that these incompetent shrinks would say, are you sure you

557
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:15.199
<v Speaker 7>don't remember your dad's sacrificing your baby's sister in the

558
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:21.159
<v Speaker 7>basement literally, and they just it was all leading the witness,

559
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:24.840
<v Speaker 7>just planting these memories. Okay, I can picture it. I

560
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:29.079
<v Speaker 7>guess I do remember. And so you had utterly dumbfounded

561
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:33.119
<v Speaker 7>parents finding themselves in jail for this, and none of

562
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:37.280
<v Speaker 7>it ever happened. As to the idea that the illuminati

563
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:41.039
<v Speaker 7>are around and they're gonna take over, that of course

564
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:44.880
<v Speaker 7>has had a vogue and still does on the extremes

565
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:47.199
<v Speaker 7>of both the left and the right. But whether they

566
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:50.800
<v Speaker 7>literally demonized that and tied in with Satan as these

567
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:55.679
<v Speaker 7>jack chit type fundamentalists did, I don't know how popular

568
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:56.159
<v Speaker 7>that is.

569
00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:00.719
<v Speaker 2>It's Obama Vantichrist is a pretty powerful idea right now.

570
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:06.119
<v Speaker 2>I just in fact, right before this interview, I happened

571
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:08.440
<v Speaker 2>to be reading an article and one of the pop

572
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:11.199
<v Speaker 2>up ads, I guess because of my research, was a

573
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:16.440
<v Speaker 2>really graphic image of a giant Barack Obama in front

574
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:20.159
<v Speaker 2>of an audience with FEMA people pointing guns at the

575
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:23.880
<v Speaker 2>audience and click here for this important video to save

576
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.519
<v Speaker 2>your family in the future, the dark future that's coming.

577
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:29.119
<v Speaker 2>And so I clicked on it, and it was all

578
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.960
<v Speaker 2>about why we need to be hoarding our food for

579
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.960
<v Speaker 2>the dark times that are coming, and it.

580
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:36.360
<v Speaker 3>Is all you know.

581
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.960
<v Speaker 2>It fed into the same idea, and there seems to

582
00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:41.800
<v Speaker 2>be in the conspiracy world. There seems to be kind

583
00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:45.159
<v Speaker 2>of an interesting split between the people who believe in

584
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the illuminati, the people who believe in reptilian aliens, and

585
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.760
<v Speaker 2>the people who believe in a satanic overlord or sort

586
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.440
<v Speaker 2>of a dark power, spiritual power being behind all the

587
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.639
<v Speaker 2>bad things that are happening.

588
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.920
<v Speaker 7>Well, the unfortunate thing about this is that there is

589
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.960
<v Speaker 7>a point to this stuff if it's not understood in

590
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.719
<v Speaker 7>a literal and paranoid way, like the notion of the

591
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:17.519
<v Speaker 7>principalities and powers. I think this is quite profound. It

592
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:20.320
<v Speaker 7>just doesn't have anything to do with a supernatural It's

593
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:24.280
<v Speaker 7>a recognition of things that it took twentieth century sociology

594
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:31.400
<v Speaker 7>to understand that there are super individual forces politically, culturally, economically,

595
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:38.119
<v Speaker 7>in what multinational corporations, agencies of the government, religions, anything

596
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:41.960
<v Speaker 7>you want to pick, any institution that it was created

597
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.199
<v Speaker 7>by humans long ago, but now have taken on a

598
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:47.840
<v Speaker 7>power of their own to the point where there's no

599
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:52.679
<v Speaker 7>single human face, no concerned individual could hope to change

600
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:57.280
<v Speaker 7>these things. So these are I think aptly symbolized and

601
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:02.159
<v Speaker 7>maybe even irreplaceably symbolized by the demonic principalities and powers.

602
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:04.960
<v Speaker 7>If you reduce it to the omen and think that

603
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:09.519
<v Speaker 7>it's literal devils, that trivializes it, but there's a powerful

604
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.400
<v Speaker 7>I think I heard Jerry Brown say this once, probably

605
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:14.199
<v Speaker 7>the only thing you ever said I agreed with, but

606
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.400
<v Speaker 7>that there really is a point about this. I mean,

607
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:19.880
<v Speaker 7>if you're saying, you know, why can't we get those

608
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.679
<v Speaker 7>fat gats to just repent? It's not a question that

609
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:28.599
<v Speaker 7>there's an institutional inertia or institutional racism. You can get

610
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.559
<v Speaker 7>all kinds of individuals to stop being racist. But if

611
00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:35.039
<v Speaker 7>there's a structure to it that people have vested interest in,

612
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:38.239
<v Speaker 7>this goes way beyond what any individual could do.

613
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:39.000
<v Speaker 3>Well.

614
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:42.719
<v Speaker 7>Likewise, if you like, when fundamental to say, oh, the

615
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:46.400
<v Speaker 7>universal product code is the mark of the beast, or

616
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.760
<v Speaker 7>something that seems kind of crazy, and it is because

617
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:52.480
<v Speaker 7>it taken it literally saying, oh is this the prediction?

618
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:56.199
<v Speaker 7>Oh boy, let's match A with B. That's crazy. But

619
00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:01.480
<v Speaker 7>think of all this surveillance by the NSSA and the irs,

620
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:04.000
<v Speaker 7>all this stuff going on that I never thought was

621
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:08.239
<v Speaker 7>going on. This you suddenly see is what these symbols

622
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:13.519
<v Speaker 7>were about. When you see a shocking overreach by the authorities,

623
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:17.239
<v Speaker 7>then these myths start to click in. And it doesn't

624
00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:20.800
<v Speaker 7>mean there's a literal Antichrist. There's not. In fact, that

625
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:24.320
<v Speaker 7>would just be that would be less relevant. The idea

626
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:28.280
<v Speaker 7>is that Hitler was the Antichrist, Mussolini style of these

627
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:32.159
<v Speaker 7>guys were the Antichrist because it's a mythic archetype that

628
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:37.119
<v Speaker 7>people unfortunately live into and embody. And I do think

629
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:42.320
<v Speaker 7>Obama is a dangerous megalomaniac who was shredding the constitution.

630
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:48.039
<v Speaker 7>And I can see why superstitious folks say he's literally

631
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.840
<v Speaker 7>the Antichrist. There is no literal Antichrist, but the symbol

632
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:54.760
<v Speaker 7>is handy to make us say, wait a minute, this

633
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.840
<v Speaker 7>guy is getting too big for his britches. We could

634
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.639
<v Speaker 7>be in trouble here. No matter who you think. I mean,

635
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:05.039
<v Speaker 7>if you didn't like Bush, the utility of the symbol

636
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:08.679
<v Speaker 7>would still apply, right, It's it's always a question mark

637
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:13.320
<v Speaker 7>to be raised beside leaders. And so that's the utility

638
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:17.239
<v Speaker 7>of myth. It's not just scientifically true or false. It's

639
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:19.159
<v Speaker 7>stillion kind of a thing.

640
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, it also works for corporations in that they have

641
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:25.679
<v Speaker 2>now achieved the kind of personhood legally. But they're right,

642
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.639
<v Speaker 2>but they don't have they don't have souls, and they

643
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:31.679
<v Speaker 2>don't have in a more literal sense, they don't have empathy,

644
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:34.119
<v Speaker 2>and they don't have regret so much.

645
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:36.880
<v Speaker 7>You know, that's right, that's right exactly.

646
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:41.760
<v Speaker 2>So it's certainly a workable metaphor. But I think I'm

647
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:44.719
<v Speaker 2>far too well. You live in the South too. But

648
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:47.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's just I run into way more people

649
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:50.719
<v Speaker 2>who believe this literally in supernatural sense than I do

650
00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:53.239
<v Speaker 2>who consider it in the metaphorical sense where it might

651
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:53.760
<v Speaker 2>be useful.

652
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:58.159
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I just I will admit to that these people

653
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:03.920
<v Speaker 7>may have they may also, like Tillick said about naive literalism,

654
00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:07.239
<v Speaker 7>they may also be getting the real point of it,

655
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:12.719
<v Speaker 7>even though they happen to believe in implausible literal applications

656
00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:16.920
<v Speaker 7>of it. I think that people are nowadays very rightly

657
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:22.880
<v Speaker 7>suspicious of government no matter who's in charge, and that

658
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:25.280
<v Speaker 7>if they also happen to believe it's going to be

659
00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:28.360
<v Speaker 7>a literal Antichrist and a rapture, well, I really who

660
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.400
<v Speaker 7>cares that they might be right about their suspicions of

661
00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:32.000
<v Speaker 7>the government.

662
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:34.599
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, This is going to be the most controversial muster

663
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:37.679
<v Speaker 2>talk ever because I think I've avoided religion as much

664
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:40.559
<v Speaker 2>as possible in politics almost completely, so this should be interesting.

665
00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:41.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

666
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.159
<v Speaker 7>I know people that like my writing. The minute they

667
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:47.880
<v Speaker 7>hear I'm a Republican. They think that I'm an idiot savant,

668
00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:51.840
<v Speaker 7>that I happen to know something. I'm like the rain Man,

669
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.519
<v Speaker 7>that it's self evident that no intelligent person could be

670
00:41:55.559 --> 00:42:00.559
<v Speaker 7>politically conservative. And in return, I think it's seems very

671
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.599
<v Speaker 7>clear to me that dogmatic political liberalism is a fact

672
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:08.960
<v Speaker 7>proof faith position. So it kind of it's a mirror image.

673
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:09.320
<v Speaker 7>I guess.

674
00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:11.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think I think the issue when just again,

675
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:13.000
<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons I try to keep politics off

676
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:17.039
<v Speaker 2>is just because I think dogma itself is the problem,

677
00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:21.119
<v Speaker 2>and that the whole political system seems to have made

678
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:25.079
<v Speaker 2>the idea of compromise like a bad word and like

679
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:29.480
<v Speaker 2>people are not working together towards right helping America or

680
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:32.079
<v Speaker 2>the world for that matter, they're just looking for their

681
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:37.559
<v Speaker 2>own personal gain, and that there's way too much selfishness

682
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:41.440
<v Speaker 2>and not enough altruism. So I just that's one of

683
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:43.920
<v Speaker 2>the reasons I just tend to avoid it because I

684
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:44.960
<v Speaker 2>don't have any answers.

685
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:50.000
<v Speaker 7>I agree, I agree, you.

686
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:51.679
<v Speaker 2>Really covered a lot of what I wanted to ask

687
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:54.079
<v Speaker 2>you about, really neatly without me having to ask questions.

688
00:42:55.719 --> 00:43:00.880
<v Speaker 2>So the devil changes over time and becomes instead of

689
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:05.079
<v Speaker 2>being someone who's working towards God's mission, becomes this character

690
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:07.519
<v Speaker 2>at least within Christianity or I guess to some extent

691
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Islam as well, where he is the bad guy who's

692
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:12.960
<v Speaker 2>blamed for everything.

693
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:14.360
<v Speaker 3>How does that work?

694
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, is it dangerous for people to ascribe blame

695
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:19.840
<v Speaker 2>to this spiritual force instead of taking responsibility for their

696
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:21.400
<v Speaker 2>own actions or do people even do that?

697
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:21.880
<v Speaker 3>Do you think?

698
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:25.719
<v Speaker 7>Well? I know I've heard jokes like the old Flip

699
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.760
<v Speaker 7>Wilson thing, but Dema made me do it and all that,

700
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.760
<v Speaker 7>But I have never met anybody that I've certainly never

701
00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:37.360
<v Speaker 7>met any kind of devout fundamentalists that was trying to

702
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:41.559
<v Speaker 7>slide out of responsibility. I regret the I think the

703
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:47.719
<v Speaker 7>intellectual errors of fundamentalism of any kind. But my experience

704
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.039
<v Speaker 7>has been that most of these people of any religion

705
00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:55.679
<v Speaker 7>who take it so seriously, really are concerned about their

706
00:43:55.800 --> 00:44:00.239
<v Speaker 7>moral integrity. I mean, there's hypocrites everywhere, but i've i've

707
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:05.360
<v Speaker 7>my experience has been that the devil is almost superfluous

708
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:08.159
<v Speaker 7>to their belief is a fifth wheel, because they do

709
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:15.199
<v Speaker 7>not underestimate the frailty of human nature. And when the

710
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.079
<v Speaker 7>Epistle of James says where do we get all these

711
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.920
<v Speaker 7>disputes in this strife? He expects them to say, well,

712
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.760
<v Speaker 7>of course it's could it be Satan? But he doesn't

713
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:27.920
<v Speaker 7>say that. He says, well, of course it's your own desires,

714
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:32.400
<v Speaker 7>it's your own nature, as it obviously is. And so

715
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:36.119
<v Speaker 7>the fundamentalists do happen to believe in the Satanic mastermind,

716
00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:40.599
<v Speaker 7>But in my experience, most of them, it almost would

717
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:43.360
<v Speaker 7>make no difference to their belief that that wasn't a

718
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:45.559
<v Speaker 7>part of it, because they know, oh, yeah, I have

719
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.800
<v Speaker 7>the potential for sin, I'm tempted by my own weaknesses

720
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.760
<v Speaker 7>and desires. And they're a little too tough on themselves.

721
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I know that more than one humorist i've read

722
00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:01.280
<v Speaker 2>has made the comment about Satan that I don't have time,

723
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:04.039
<v Speaker 2>nor am I needed to make up all these terrible ideas.

724
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:05.199
<v Speaker 3>People do it there are selves.

725
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:11.480
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, and that's an important Christian realization. Once I was

726
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:15.159
<v Speaker 7>talking to a professor Gordon Conwell's seminary right after the

727
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:18.639
<v Speaker 7>Jonestown horror and he said, but don't you think that's

728
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:21.599
<v Speaker 7>evidence of Satan in the world today? And I said,

729
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:25.440
<v Speaker 7>I wish it were. That's optimistic. If there was one

730
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:30.320
<v Speaker 7>supernatural terrorist we could somehow get rid of everything would

731
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:33.880
<v Speaker 7>be okay. But there isn't. This is in human nature

732
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.800
<v Speaker 7>that this shows the depths to which human beings can

733
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:42.960
<v Speaker 7>too easily sink. So the Satan thing, if they took

734
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:47.719
<v Speaker 7>it seriously, I think, would be inimical to their theology.

735
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:51.599
<v Speaker 2>When we think about how people consider Satan today, the

736
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:54.119
<v Speaker 2>image of Satan in our stories of Hell and of

737
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:55.800
<v Speaker 2>how Satan got there so much it.

738
00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.480
<v Speaker 3>Seems to be sort of stuck, pulled straight.

739
00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Out of Dante and out of Milton, and I wonder,

740
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:08.039
<v Speaker 2>like this is completely fanciful in a sense. But Dante,

741
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, he populated some of the lowest pits of

742
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Hell with people who were still alive, like their souls

743
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:17.519
<v Speaker 2>had left their body and now they were being controlled

744
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:21.320
<v Speaker 2>by demons and still walking the earth alive even though

745
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:24.639
<v Speaker 2>their souls were in Hell being punished. And and I thought,

746
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:26.679
<v Speaker 2>I know, he was making a joke, but it also

747
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:31.599
<v Speaker 2>seems like a wonderful metaphor for people who are psychopaths,

748
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.119
<v Speaker 2>who don't have what we would consider to be like

749
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.360
<v Speaker 2>the sort of emotional responses we would expect from a

750
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:41.280
<v Speaker 2>normal person. Yeah, and I always thought it was a nice

751
00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:43.480
<v Speaker 2>metaphor for that, even though that's not what he had

752
00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:45.639
<v Speaker 2>in mind when he made his jokes. But so, how

753
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.239
<v Speaker 2>much of that does I mean, it seems like most

754
00:46:48.280 --> 00:46:51.440
<v Speaker 2>of what we think about the appearance of Satan comes

755
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:55.519
<v Speaker 2>from medieval and Renaissance art, but not from the Bible,

756
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.639
<v Speaker 2>and and and just our ideas of hell or the

757
00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:01.719
<v Speaker 2>hell is I read the Bible was really not very

758
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:02.559
<v Speaker 2>well described.

759
00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:08.000
<v Speaker 7>That's right. There's Tartaros that first Peter mentions, and it's

760
00:47:08.199 --> 00:47:11.239
<v Speaker 7>the name and the ideas seemed to come right out

761
00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:16.199
<v Speaker 7>of Hesiod and other Greek writers. Tartaros was the pit

762
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:21.760
<v Speaker 7>of darkness where Uranos had imprisoned the giants and some

763
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:26.159
<v Speaker 7>of the titans, monstrous offspring that he couldn't unleash on

764
00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:32.440
<v Speaker 7>the earth, and they're in chains there under the in

765
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:35.559
<v Speaker 7>the caverns of darkness, just like First Peter says that

766
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:38.880
<v Speaker 7>the fallen angels are I think it's First Peter, maybe

767
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:42.559
<v Speaker 7>Second Peter, and that comes right from there or Hades,

768
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.800
<v Speaker 7>which is usually like of course, the word hell is

769
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:49.760
<v Speaker 7>an English word, not a bad translation for Shaol, the

770
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:52.719
<v Speaker 7>nether world of the dead in the Old Testament, but

771
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:58.960
<v Speaker 7>the idea of a fiery tit of torment that goes well,

772
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:02.760
<v Speaker 7>that hades the Greek word used in the Gospels. That

773
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:09.400
<v Speaker 7>could mean just the place of the dead, without necessarily

774
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:15.920
<v Speaker 7>being a place of torment, as when Jesus says that Capernaium, Bethseda,

775
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:20.960
<v Speaker 7>and Koradzen, who spurned his preaching despite miracles, they will

776
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:26.079
<v Speaker 7>not rise to heaven. They will be brought down to Hades. Well,

777
00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 7>that's kind of a recollection of Isaiah fourteen. The King

778
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:33.119
<v Speaker 7>of Babylon will find himself waking up on the dung

779
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:37.559
<v Speaker 7>heap in hate in Shaol. But Gehenna is the one

780
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:42.440
<v Speaker 7>where it's a fiery hell, and that's a very old

781
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:46.760
<v Speaker 7>idea in the Old Testament's a place. It means the

782
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:51.239
<v Speaker 7>valley of the Sons of Hinham, and this was a

783
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:55.360
<v Speaker 7>place of valley right at the base of Mount Zion.

784
00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:59.639
<v Speaker 7>And according to their mythic cosmology, they believe that the

785
00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:03.199
<v Speaker 7>that Mount Zion with a temple on top, was the

786
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:08.079
<v Speaker 7>gateway to Heaven where Jehovah lived, and that tafet or

787
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:12.599
<v Speaker 7>Gehenna down below was an opening to the fiery nether

788
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:18.519
<v Speaker 7>world of Molek, a god who received human sacrifices infant sacrifices.

789
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:22.320
<v Speaker 7>So there was this subterranean fiery realm.

790
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:22.559
<v Speaker 3>And.

791
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:27.480
<v Speaker 7>The innocent went there. That's the difference. It wasn't a

792
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:32.039
<v Speaker 7>place of post mortem punishment, but eventually I guess it's

793
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:36.760
<v Speaker 7>combined with tartaros and so on. But it's not clear

794
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:39.239
<v Speaker 7>in too many of the places in the New Testament

795
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:42.199
<v Speaker 7>where Hell is mentioned that they're thinking of a place

796
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:46.440
<v Speaker 7>where all the wicked will wind up in the clearest

797
00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:49.519
<v Speaker 7>places in Revelation where it says those who have taken

798
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:52.719
<v Speaker 7>the mark of the beast to save their hide will

799
00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:56.119
<v Speaker 7>ru it because they will be thrown into the lake

800
00:49:56.159 --> 00:50:00.280
<v Speaker 7>of fire, and the smoke of their torment rises and

801
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:04.480
<v Speaker 7>night forever before the lamb and is thrown. But that's

802
00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:08.599
<v Speaker 7>special treatment given to these people that knuckled under to

803
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:12.280
<v Speaker 7>the beast. It doesn't say whether all the unrighteous are

804
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:15.000
<v Speaker 7>going to join them there, which is kind of an

805
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.480
<v Speaker 7>important thing if you're trying to compile this jigsaw puzzle

806
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.719
<v Speaker 7>of theology out of little postage stamps in the Bible,

807
00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:27.119
<v Speaker 7>and in Matthew twenty five the Sheep and the Goat's judgment,

808
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:31.840
<v Speaker 7>the people that didn't help the least of the son

809
00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:36.960
<v Speaker 7>of Man's brethren are going into the eternal fire prepared

810
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:40.039
<v Speaker 7>for the devil and his angels. Well, who then are

811
00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:43.960
<v Speaker 7>the goats? Are they the devil and his angels? Are

812
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.599
<v Speaker 7>we even talking about human beings at all? It's not

813
00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:51.280
<v Speaker 7>that clear. And the place is in Matthew, where it

814
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:54.039
<v Speaker 7>says that people we've thrown into the fiery furnace with

815
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:56.920
<v Speaker 7>the blue weeping and gnashing of teeth. These have been

816
00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:01.840
<v Speaker 7>added by Matthew again and again from a phrase in

817
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:06.599
<v Speaker 7>the Queue document that didn't mean quite that originally. When

818
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:11.719
<v Speaker 7>the end comes and gentiles are welcomed into the kingdom,

819
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:15.440
<v Speaker 7>and Jews, the proper heirs of the kingdom are shocked

820
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:20.599
<v Speaker 7>to see it, and these unrighteous Jews will be excluded.

821
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:23.920
<v Speaker 7>They will weep and gnash their teeth in anguish. It's

822
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:27.519
<v Speaker 7>not about what's going to happen in hell. Matthew applies

823
00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:30.679
<v Speaker 7>it to that. There's very little said. There is nothing

824
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:34.320
<v Speaker 7>in any epistle attributed to Paul about anybody going to hell.

825
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:38.440
<v Speaker 7>The dead that are wicked just don't rise. So it's

826
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:41.280
<v Speaker 7>really a mixed bag, and it's not at all clear.

827
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:46.639
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking about the parable of Lazarus and the

828
00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:51.599
<v Speaker 2>rich Man, and that's the only place I'm aware of

829
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:55.480
<v Speaker 2>where you've got a picture of someone in hell. Also,

830
00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:57.559
<v Speaker 2>not only are they being tormented, but also able to

831
00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:00.400
<v Speaker 2>look up and see Heaven and what they're missing out on.

832
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:06.519
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, he says, I am in agony in this pit

833
00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:12.159
<v Speaker 7>of torment. And he figures this wicked brothers, or at

834
00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:15.280
<v Speaker 7>least his rich brothers, they seem to quite the two

835
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:18.800
<v Speaker 7>in Luke. They will die and come to the same

836
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:24.559
<v Speaker 7>sad fate. There were hells of torment in ancient Jewish

837
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:28.320
<v Speaker 7>and early Christian thought as well. And it's interesting this

838
00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:32.679
<v Speaker 7>doesn't entail a final judgment. This is yet another version

839
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:35.400
<v Speaker 7>of it. This is more like what people think of today.

840
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:38.599
<v Speaker 7>You die and go to heaven or hell. Did they

841
00:52:38.599 --> 00:52:41.840
<v Speaker 7>also think that they would be recalled to their bodies

842
00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:46.079
<v Speaker 7>one day for a superfluous second judgment rubber stamping the

843
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:48.280
<v Speaker 7>one that landed them in heaven or held in the

844
00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:51.599
<v Speaker 7>first place. That sounds like somebody is trying to stitch

845
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:56.039
<v Speaker 7>together disparate ideas in the Bible. But that certainly or

846
00:52:56.239 --> 00:53:00.119
<v Speaker 7>Jesus in the same gospel tells the repentant thief today,

847
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:03.480
<v Speaker 7>you'll be with me in paradise. Nothing about Jesus going

848
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:06.000
<v Speaker 7>to the right hand of God. They're just both righteous

849
00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:08.199
<v Speaker 7>and they're going to go to heaven when they die shortly,

850
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.159
<v Speaker 7>so it doesn't quite fit in with the rest of

851
00:53:11.199 --> 00:53:17.559
<v Speaker 7>the scenario. But there is a post mortem suffering passage.

852
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:20.880
<v Speaker 7>It is there. It's just not all. Not all of

853
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:21.599
<v Speaker 7>them seem to.

854
00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Agree, no, right, right, well, and the different writers different times.

855
00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:31.880
<v Speaker 3>So should we be afraid of the devil?

856
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:38.599
<v Speaker 7>Robert? I don't think so. Only paranoids are. Even in

857
00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:42.840
<v Speaker 7>terms of orthodox Christianity. If you're afraid of the devil,

858
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:47.119
<v Speaker 7>you're not being a very good Christian, because, as First

859
00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:49.480
<v Speaker 7>John says, he who is in you is greater than

860
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:50.639
<v Speaker 7>he who is in the world.

861
00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:53.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, I had that argument with the I'm not

862
00:53:53.679 --> 00:53:55.840
<v Speaker 2>going to say who some family members of mine that

863
00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:58.559
<v Speaker 2>I had some family member who are very very frightened

864
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.639
<v Speaker 2>a Satanic power, very very and the demons. And my

865
00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:07.039
<v Speaker 2>reading was if you were a believer in Christ, there

866
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:09.800
<v Speaker 2>was no reason to be afraid. And so I never

867
00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:12.519
<v Speaker 2>understood all the fear at all. I never understood the fear.

868
00:54:12.519 --> 00:54:13.440
<v Speaker 2>It was so strange.

869
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:17.320
<v Speaker 7>I can see concern if you really didn't believe that,

870
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:19.559
<v Speaker 7>then again, this could be secular. If you think bar

871
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:22.559
<v Speaker 7>Our country is going to hell in a handbasket, well, yeah,

872
00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:23.599
<v Speaker 7>it was made about that.

873
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:27.679
<v Speaker 3>This was supernatural fear. This was the oogie boogie fear.

874
00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:32.360
<v Speaker 7>Well, were they afraid that the Satanic conspiracy was Gnasha

875
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:34.519
<v Speaker 7>in the Great Tribulation and they're just that things were

876
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:35.639
<v Speaker 7>going to be awful bad.

877
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:40.280
<v Speaker 8>I think they were afraid that that that maybe a

878
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:43.320
<v Speaker 8>demon could possess them, that people they knew might be

879
00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:47.559
<v Speaker 8>under the influencer control of Satan, that that there's very real,

880
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:51.639
<v Speaker 8>dark spiritual influence in the world that directly impacted them

881
00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:52.159
<v Speaker 8>in their life.

882
00:54:52.599 --> 00:54:55.119
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I would just if I were still a believer

883
00:54:55.239 --> 00:54:59.800
<v Speaker 7>in this, I would tell such people that I think

884
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:06.239
<v Speaker 7>they're not trusting in Christ. That this is morbid preoccupation,

885
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:08.840
<v Speaker 7>akin to the person that's afraid every day they're going

886
00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:12.480
<v Speaker 7>to die of some germ or whatever, that anything that

887
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:15.679
<v Speaker 7>hell are like Christians that don't believe in eternal security

888
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:18.119
<v Speaker 7>and said, well, gee, it's possible I might fall away

889
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:23.679
<v Speaker 7>and lose my faith. What would happen then? And anything's possible.

890
00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:26.519
<v Speaker 7>But that's not the life of faith you say you

891
00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:31.840
<v Speaker 7>signed on for. Isn't the hope of glory Christ in you?

892
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:36.760
<v Speaker 7>Isn't Christ powerful where you are weak? And if you

893
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:39.519
<v Speaker 7>trust in Christ, what do you have to worry about?

894
00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:44.119
<v Speaker 7>It seems to me that's they have a poor faith

895
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:48.239
<v Speaker 7>in Christ. If they're that, if they're that worried.

896
00:55:48.440 --> 00:55:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they may have also just had perpetual worry situation

897
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:51.639
<v Speaker 2>going on.

898
00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:56.119
<v Speaker 7>Yeah yeah, but it's awful to have it magnified and

899
00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:02.039
<v Speaker 7>compounded with superstitious fear. And I am the last one

900
00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:06.360
<v Speaker 7>to say that if you're a Christian you're automatically superstitious.

901
00:56:06.440 --> 00:56:09.119
<v Speaker 7>I think you've got pre scientific beliefs in some ways.

902
00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:12.360
<v Speaker 7>But there are a lot of sound, healthy minded people

903
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:18.159
<v Speaker 7>that hold these beliefs that, however, is just neurotic morbidity.

904
00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:21.840
<v Speaker 7>And I hope people like that can sluff off that burden.

905
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:22.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, kidding.

906
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting, I mean because again I've typically tried

907
00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:30.079
<v Speaker 2>to avoid religion and politics on the show, but Satan

908
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:32.760
<v Speaker 2>is such a big monster, and he's had such a

909
00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:37.719
<v Speaker 2>big influence on Western culture in movies in modern times

910
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:41.440
<v Speaker 2>and in ancient times, and directly.

911
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:43.480
<v Speaker 3>Tied to the witch trials.

912
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:47.639
<v Speaker 2>And directly tied to some of the interpretations of religion

913
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:51.679
<v Speaker 2>in early America, definitely tied to a lot of things

914
00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:55.519
<v Speaker 2>that happened after the Exorcist and the sort of cultural

915
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:59.599
<v Speaker 2>impact that that had. So it really felt like we

916
00:56:59.679 --> 00:57:01.480
<v Speaker 2>had touch on this. I mean, it has He's a

917
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:02.760
<v Speaker 2>topic that has to be covered.

918
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:07.519
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, there is evil in the world, whether whatever you

919
00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:11.159
<v Speaker 7>think about it metaphysically. I mean, there's certainly stuff happening.

920
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:15.679
<v Speaker 7>There's certainly people that it's appropriate to use that that

921
00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:19.400
<v Speaker 7>word for even if it's just a metaphor. It's it's

922
00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:23.400
<v Speaker 7>unfortunate to get distracted from that by thinking the real

923
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:27.159
<v Speaker 7>issue is whether there's this fallen angel lurking around like

924
00:57:27.320 --> 00:57:33.639
<v Speaker 7>Lex Luthor somewhere. That's the problem. It's that you can't

925
00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:36.920
<v Speaker 7>do anything about it. It's possible, you might do something

926
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:41.639
<v Speaker 7>about your own character, your own circumstances, and that surely

927
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:45.679
<v Speaker 7>should be the place to to concentrate.

928
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:48.119
<v Speaker 2>I have a question for you, and that's is the

929
00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:51.559
<v Speaker 2>devil's greatest trick convincing as he's not real? Or is

930
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:53.880
<v Speaker 2>it the recipe for delicious chocolate cake?

931
00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:56.159
<v Speaker 7>I think I go with the cake.

932
00:57:56.280 --> 00:57:57.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's pretty awesome.

933
00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:01.639
<v Speaker 7>This whole thing is circular. Once a pastor who was

934
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:06.480
<v Speaker 7>a friend of mine was saying that the Hammer films

935
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:12.519
<v Speaker 7>directed by Terrence Fisher were important. He knew they were

936
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:15.880
<v Speaker 7>literally true, but this idea that you know, the vampire's

937
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:18.039
<v Speaker 7>greatest strength is that no one believes in them. All that,

938
00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:21.119
<v Speaker 7>and I said, well, yeah, but there aren't any vampires.

939
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:25.320
<v Speaker 7>What point are you trying to make? It's a circular thing.

940
00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:28.480
<v Speaker 7>Is there any reason to believe in the devil? Because

941
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:31.199
<v Speaker 7>if not, you can say, well, the strength of the

942
00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:34.079
<v Speaker 7>little green men in the moon is that nobody knows

943
00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:36.679
<v Speaker 7>they're there. Well, how do you know they're there? I mean,

944
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:39.159
<v Speaker 7>if there was such an entity, I guess it might

945
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:41.920
<v Speaker 7>come in handy. But there's certainly no reason to take

946
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:42.840
<v Speaker 7>that seriously.

947
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:45.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but I do like this film.

948
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:46.840
<v Speaker 7>Oh yeah, yeah, me too, Me too.

949
00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:49.639
<v Speaker 2>I want to say thank you again for spending almost

950
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:52.800
<v Speaker 2>another hour with us. And I do try to ask

951
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:54.480
<v Speaker 2>all my guests, and I think we asked you before

952
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:56.559
<v Speaker 2>on the Kathu episode. It may have changed with me now,

953
00:58:56.679 --> 00:58:58.559
<v Speaker 2>but what's your favorite monster?

954
00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:02.079
<v Speaker 7>I guess it would have to be the Frankenstein monster.

955
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:03.760
<v Speaker 3>That's a good monster.

956
00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:06.920
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I love him. My daughter Victoria and I watched

957
00:59:08.840 --> 00:59:12.840
<v Speaker 7>thirty or so monster movies during October as a countdown

958
00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:16.320
<v Speaker 7>to Halloween, and we watched Frankenstein, Bride of Son of

959
00:59:16.519 --> 00:59:21.960
<v Speaker 7>Ghost of House of They meet David Costello, Evil of Frankenstein,

960
00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:24.800
<v Speaker 7>and so on and so on and most of the

961
00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:28.280
<v Speaker 7>other universals. They're just better and better every time I

962
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:32.360
<v Speaker 7>see him. And it's tough to beat the Undying Monster.

963
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:36.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's and also, you know, man's terrible hubris at

964
00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:37.559
<v Speaker 2>creating something.

965
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:42.119
<v Speaker 7>Now I know how much it was to be God.

966
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:43.320
<v Speaker 7>I know.

967
00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:50.679
<v Speaker 2>I can't get tired of those films. What I just

968
00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:53.000
<v Speaker 2>realized maybe last year, I think for the first time

969
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:55.679
<v Speaker 2>I said down and watch Son of Frankenstein and didn't

970
00:59:55.760 --> 01:00:00.239
<v Speaker 2>realize how much the mel Brooks Young Frankenstein it was

971
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:02.719
<v Speaker 2>really just a riff on Son of Frankenstein.

972
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:05.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's amazing, but just.

973
01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:08.480
<v Speaker 2>It made me want to go watch that film again

974
01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:09.800
<v Speaker 2>and enjoy it even more so.

975
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:11.599
<v Speaker 3>I'm just just fantastic.

976
01:00:12.039 --> 01:00:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you so much for your time. I really

977
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:15.800
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. And this has been a great discussion.

978
01:00:16.039 --> 01:00:18.639
<v Speaker 7>Oh yeah, there's any old time. It's loads of fun.

979
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:22.239
<v Speaker 2>All right, have a good evening more Monster t Thank

980
01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:24.760
<v Speaker 2>you for listening to another episode of Monster Talk. I'm

981
01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:26.880
<v Speaker 2>your host, Blake Smith, and today you heard me interview

982
01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:30.679
<v Speaker 2>biblical scholar Robert M. Price about the history of the Devil.

983
01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:33.440
<v Speaker 2>You can find links to Bob's books and podcasts in

984
01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:36.639
<v Speaker 2>our show notes at monster talk dot org. The dramatic

985
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:39.239
<v Speaker 2>reading at the beginning was performed by Brian Thompson and

986
01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Carry Poppy. Carrie can be heard on the podcast Oh No,

987
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:45.639
<v Speaker 2>It's Ross and Carry, and Brian can be seen aimlessly

988
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:49.119
<v Speaker 2>wondering the streets of Los Angeles. I promise you the

989
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:52.000
<v Speaker 2>views and the opinions expressed on Monster Talk are not

990
01:00:52.039 --> 01:00:55.440
<v Speaker 2>necessarily those of Skeptic Magazine or the Skeptic Society. I'm

991
01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:58.000
<v Speaker 2>still working to get a live Monster Talk Google hangout

992
01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:00.800
<v Speaker 2>set up, so please follow me on Twitter Doctor Atlantis

993
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:03.039
<v Speaker 2>and check out our Facebook group, where you'll meet a

994
01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:06.599
<v Speaker 2>variety of people who will passionately discuss cryptids, monsters, and

995
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:07.639
<v Speaker 2>adorable kittens with you.

996
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:09.360
<v Speaker 3>Hey, it's Facebook.

997
01:01:10.320 --> 01:01:12.360
<v Speaker 2>I sometimes ask for donations here to help with our

998
01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:15.400
<v Speaker 2>transcript project, but I'd like to ask you instead to

999
01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:18.840
<v Speaker 2>donate to the Red Cross or any reliable aid organization

1000
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:21.519
<v Speaker 2>working to alleviate the horrible tragedy going on in the

1001
01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Philippines right now, with more than ten thousand people killed

1002
01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:28.440
<v Speaker 2>by the largest typhoon in recorded history. Speedy aid is

1003
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:32.400
<v Speaker 2>vital before disease and starvation kill even more. Don't just

1004
01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:35.079
<v Speaker 2>think about it. If you can afford a coffee or

1005
01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:37.559
<v Speaker 2>a phone application, you could give that up for a

1006
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:39.119
<v Speaker 2>day or two and use that money to make a

1007
01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:43.840
<v Speaker 2>difference over there. Salamat Monster Talk. Theme music is by

1008
01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Pete Stealing Monkeys. Thanks for listening.

1009
01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:25.840
<v Speaker 4>Reading for more skepticism. Want to learn the truth about

1010
01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:30.199
<v Speaker 4>the scientific controversies of our time, then subscribe to Skeptic,

1011
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:32.320
<v Speaker 4>the quarterly magazine Stephen J.

1012
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.599
<v Speaker 2>Gould called the best journal in the field.

1013
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:39.639
<v Speaker 3>To subscribe visit skeptic dot com today.

1014
01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Who who is interviewing him?

1015
01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:45.159
<v Speaker 4>Oh, Connie Chung