WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:08.839 Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:10.000 an idea. 3 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.519 The population of atheists this country is going through the. 4 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:19.039 Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I 5 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:23.160 tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because. 6 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:26.760 I put my hand on a book and made a wish. 7 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:28.839 And working together for a more rational world. 8 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.039 Take the risk of thinking. Feels so much more happiness. 9 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:34.719 Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way. 10 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:43.520 Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 11 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:52.759 Thinking Atheist podcast, hosted by Seth Andrews. 12 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.920 Okay, this is just something to listen to. It's a bonus, 13 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:05.120 absolutely free to patrons in case you're looking for some content. 14 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:07.560 Maybe you're killing an hour and you want to sort 15 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:10.519 of evesdrop on a recent conversation I had on the 16 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:14.879 Humanism Now show with host James Hodgson out of the UK. 17 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.400 I love talking about humanism, and he asked me the 18 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.599 basic questions to start about my past and my deconstruction, 19 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:28.519 my deconversion, and then we got into humanism, humanist values 20 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:31.359 and the world around us. And you know, he's looking 21 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:33.879 over the ocean and all the insanity that's been happening 22 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:36.439 here in the United States, and I thought it was 23 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.280 an interesting and compelling chant. And so if you're looking 24 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:43.159 to kill an hour and you'd like extra content, here 25 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:45.719 you are. I'm going to go ahead and include all 26 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:47.879 of his production tags. I mean, it's his show, and 27 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:51.560 I'm real broadcasting with his permission. But you'll hear his intro, 28 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:55.719 and he's hosting, he's asking the questions, he controls the 29 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:58.840 vertical and the horizontal. A lot of fun for me, 30 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.120 and big thanks to j James for letting me share 31 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:01.680 it with you. 32 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:02.400 Here we go. 33 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:08.080 Welcome to Humanism Now, a podcast about secular ethics, curiosity, 34 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:09.080 and compassion. 35 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:11.000 I'm your host, James Hodginson. 36 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:15.000 Our guest today should need no introduction to our listeners. 37 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:18.240 Seth Andrews is one of the ogs of humanist and 38 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:21.520 atheist podcasting, as the host of the Thinking Atheist podcast, 39 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:24.520 one of the most popular podcasts and online atheist communities 40 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:28.360 in the world. A former evangelical and Christian broadcaster, Seth 41 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:30.360 is now one of the leading voices in the atheist 42 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:34.639 movement globally. He's authored six books, including his latest offering, 43 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:37.599 Christianity Made Me Talk Like an Idiot and He hosts 44 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:40.840 a second podcast called True Stories with Seth Andrews. A 45 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:44.000 renowned conference speaker, always with humor and heart, Seth is 46 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:47.840 a global advocate for science and skepticism, importance of humanism, 47 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:51.240 and why we should all bursue a personal relationship with reality. 48 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:53.080 Seth Andrews, Welcome to humanism. 49 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:55.319 Now I'm with an intro like that, I sound like 50 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:58.039 I should run for office, although I know in Oklahoma 51 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:00.719 and in the United States, being an atheist, I'm probably 52 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.439 the least qualified, like the least electable. Maybe I'm more 53 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.080 qualified least electable. But now thanks for the kind words 54 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:07.919 and thanks for having me. 55 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:08.680 It's good to be here. 56 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:10.319 Maybe the campaign starts here. 57 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:13.360 Yeah that's true. Yeah, maybe we'll start. This is ground 58 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:14.639 zero right here, so. 59 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:17.560 I'm sure most of our listeners will be aware of 60 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:21.319 the thinking atheist. And I've heard you speak previously, but 61 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:24.840 I don't think i've ever heard the full journey or 62 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:29.439 your full personal story to how you arrived at whether 63 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.560 you'd like to call yourself humanist or you prefer the 64 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:36.520 term atheist, having previously been a Christian broadcaster, So whether 65 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:37.639 this will begin for you. 66 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:41.960 It's funny I used to lead with atheist when I 67 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.919 first came out of the faith first several years. Now 68 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:48.800 I lead with humanist right because atheism is what I 69 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:50.840 don't bel the god I don't believe in are gods 70 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:51.639 I don't believe in. 71 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:51.759 That. 72 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:55.120 That's not a statement of values. Really, humanism is my 73 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:58.360 statement of values. And I've really been pounding that drama 74 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:01.360 a lot more on the show. The short version of 75 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:03.520 the long story is that I was born into a 76 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:09.280 devoutly Christian home. My mother and father were hardcore believers, 77 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:14.319 theologian level believers. They wrote sermons for pastors. There was 78 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:17.040 no light reading in our home. They had an entire 79 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:22.920 bookshelf of concordances and breakdowns, theologies, religious histories, and my 80 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:26.040 mother wrote a Greek New Testament study guide that was 81 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:28.160 used at the college level. I mean, this was the 82 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:31.120 type of Christianity we had. So it was Bible literalism. 83 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:33.879 Adam and even Noah's aren't and Moses and all those 84 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.560 things Jesus died on across Heaven and Hell are real. 85 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:42.040 And so that was my normal and we loved it. Yay, 86 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:44.279 good for us. We happen to be born into the 87 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:46.199 right faith at the right time, in the right place 88 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.319 to the right parents and the right religion, and so 89 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:54.879 I was just immersed, literally baptized into Christian schools, Christian churches, 90 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:00.240 Christian music, Christian culture. I was a student leader, kind 91 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:04.040 of this front facing dude with the ability to communicate 92 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:07.000 when I was in high school. So I ended up 93 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:10.519 on stage a lot. You had some teenager who's expounding 94 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:13.720 and giving his great wisdom about the world. Wasn't old 95 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.680 enough to drive, I wasn't old enough to vote. I 96 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:19.720 hadn't been into the world, but somehow I was useful 97 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:23.680 for church leaders. Ah, look a bright and shining example 98 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:26.319 of the new generation that will take back this country 99 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.560 for christ. And because I was immersed in Christian music 100 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.839 and a big fan, it was an easy segue into 101 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:34.879 Christian radio, and I became a Christian radio host in 102 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.079 nineteen ninety and I spent fourteen years in FM radio, 103 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:44.040 most of it Christian radio, Amy Grant, Stephen Curtis Chapman, 104 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:48.360 Michael W. Smith, Whiteheart Striper, those types of bands, and 105 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:51.959 then I segued into video production for a decade, and 106 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:56.519 most of our clients were churches. I was eyeball deep 107 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:59.399 in it. But it was funny because late in the nineties, 108 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:02.360 I started to hear that alarm bell of doubt in 109 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:06.480 the back of my skull, and for a long time, 110 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.959 under the surface, I was really struggling to make sense 111 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:13.560 of the senselessness. And it was in my late thirties 112 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:18.079 that I started to finally give myself permission to not 113 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.040 take for an answer, just take it on faith, but 114 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.199 to try to find out what's going on. And that's 115 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.319 why I named the site in the podcast the Thinking Atheist, 116 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.120 which is not me, certainly, but it's an idea because 117 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:32.759 faith is a terrible way to find out what's true 118 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:35.759 if you take it on. Christopher Hitchins used to say, 119 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:40.279 it's called faith because it's not knowledge, and so I'm like, well, 120 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:41.959 there are a lot of gaps will never fill in 121 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:44.680 our knowledge. But I don't want to just believe when possible. 122 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:45.240 I want to know. 123 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:48.800 And so The Thinking Atheist was an encouragement to myself 124 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:52.120 and to everybody else. Let's think on these things, let's 125 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.439 reason it out, let's try to figure it out as 126 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:57.560 best we can. And so the site in the show's 127 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:01.680 been going on for about seventeen years, and somehow I'm 128 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.600 still here. So anyway, that's my story in a nutshell. 129 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.040 So was it quite an immediate jump then, from being 130 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.319 immersed in the world of not Christian radio whinning are 131 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:15.639 but still working primarily with churches to I guess had 132 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.399 you fully deconstructed when you launched the Thinking Atheist or 133 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:21.959 were you still working through these questions? 134 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:26.360 I'm slow. I mean you stiped me forever. It was 135 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.600 in the late nineties. I remember that I was starting 136 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.600 to think, well, this doesn't make sense. But you are 137 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.600 trained in the faith that doubt is his sin. Right, 138 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.879 Who's the one disciple that our parents never told us 139 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.439 to be like. They were like be like John, be 140 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:44.360 like Paul, be like Peter. They never said be like 141 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:48.720 Thomas doubting Thomas right. Bible says the one who doubts 142 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:50.879 is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed 143 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.720 by the wind. That person should not expect to receive 144 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:57.600 anything from the Lord. And so doubt was either an 145 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.079 attack of the evil one, or it was rebellion, or 146 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:04.519 it was just weakness in your faith. And so whenever 147 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:06.560 I would hear those doubts, I used to just blink 148 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:09.120 them away. Oh there's something wrong. I should never doubt. 149 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.839 That's disobedience, that's weakness. It's an attack. And I don't 150 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.959 know if it was midlife or maybe it was just 151 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:21.600 all those years of being dissatisfied. I just came to 152 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:23.279 a point in my thirties where I thought, all right, 153 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.240 well I'm gonna figure this out. But it took me 154 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.360 a long time. I mean, my deconstruction. I think I 155 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:30.959 started to my deep dive. I thought, I'm gonna go 156 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:33.559 back to square one. I'm gonna figure this out. I 157 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:36.399 was thirty seven, but I didn't say the word atheist 158 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:38.799 in regard to myself till I was thirty eight. 159 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:40.919 And so it was a year. 160 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:43.200 It was a year of reading the Bible and getting 161 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.600 into Bible history and speaking to the experts, the apologist, 162 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:48.720 and of course the more they answered my questions, the 163 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:51.440 more questions I had. It just it took me a 164 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.120 long time too to find the courage and and it's 165 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:56.279 a mess. It was a big noise in my own head, 166 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:59.039 and I had to let that noise settle just a 167 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.759 little bit. And then after that, you know, I was like, 168 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:04.320 I want to be part of these conversations. 169 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:05.320 I've got to get the word out. 170 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:08.360 I was so naive when other believers hear what I 171 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.759 have discovered about the Christian faith. They will all lock 172 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.440 arms with me, and we will walk away from superstition 173 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.919 and we will prance off to Reasonville together and it 174 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:19.600 will be a beautiful thing. And of course that's not 175 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:23.519 remotely what happened. Nobody cared, nobody wanted to hear. Everybody 176 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.080 was patting me on the head like I was some 177 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:30.960 broken thing. And I actually probably started my activism long 178 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:31.919 before I should have. 179 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:33.159 I should have taken. 180 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.039 A few years and settled down because I was hot, 181 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:39.080 I was keyed up. I still had so much to learn. 182 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.799 I always do, But back then I jumped into the 183 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.200 race a bit too soon. But even then, it took 184 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.919 me a few years after that to get over the 185 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:50.840 fear of hell. Even though in my brain I'm an atheist. 186 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:54.360 I know Christianity is not true, but that baked in 187 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.279 fear of what if I'm wrong, I'll burn forever? Oh 188 00:09:57.320 --> 00:09:59.759 my god, what's going to happen? That stuff runs deep, 189 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:01.960 So it took me a long time. It was not 190 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.200 Some people get out with the snap of the finger, 191 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:07.039 and for me it was it was a slow burn. 192 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.240 It took a long time for that fuse to reach 193 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:09.639 the end. 194 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.600 And so then you would have started The Thinking Atheists. 195 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.320 Two thousand and nine, I think for the website. 196 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:19.399 So then you lords Thinking Atheists really before the boom 197 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:24.919 in podcasting, and yet to publicly advocate as you say. 198 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.720 But also think through these questions. Yeah, what's funny is 199 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.960 that I was still working for a company owned by Christians, 200 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.399 which serve churches. Mostly we did some It was a 201 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:37.840 video and three D animation company. We also served universities 202 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:39.679 and some city planners and some other things. There were 203 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.080 probably eighty percent of the videos we did were fundraising 204 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:48.600 videos for churches. So I was terrified that if I 205 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:53.480 am found out, I will lose my job. They'll find 206 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:55.440 a reason to fire me. I won't be able to 207 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.600 afford my mortgage payment, I'll lose everything financially. I will 208 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:02.000 be destitute at midlife. What else would I do? And 209 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:04.360 so for the first two years of The Thinking Atheist 210 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:07.559 it was an audio podcast and videos that did not 211 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:10.639 feature my face. No one knew who I was. It 212 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:14.039 was just my first name. And it wasn't until the 213 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:17.200 summer of twenty eleven that I finally just decided screw 214 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.639 it and stood on stage at a convention and sort 215 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:22.960 of introduced myself to the world. The cats out of 216 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:26.679 the bag. Whatever happens happens. But it took me a 217 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.120 while even just to be able to be real enough 218 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:32.679 to say hi, I'm Seth and reveal my first and 219 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.360 last name and face. I think that speaks to how 220 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:37.159 hard of a journey it is for a lot of people. 221 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:40.960 It's there are some who dismiss and say, come on, 222 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:43.799 get over it. It's Santa Claus for adults, you coward 223 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:47.120 or what's the matter, and they don't understand the many 224 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.279 gears in the machine of deconstruction, and sometimes those gears 225 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:54.159 turned slowly, And I think we need to be empathetic 226 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:55.480 and understanding about that. 227 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.799 And I think anybody who goes through that process there's 228 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.440 a huge amount of bravery to step away when, particularly 229 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.320 when you're so immersed, you know, and it's every part 230 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.120 of your life, but even more so to do it 231 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:08.240 in such a public manner. 232 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:08.720 Oh. 233 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:10.639 I say that to people I meet on the road. 234 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.039 They will come up to me and they're like, I 235 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:15.919 heard this show and it encouraged me and you inspire 236 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:17.919 me or something like that, And I'm like, holy cow, 237 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:20.320 I'm like, do you have any idea how much courage 238 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.879 it took for you to be honest with yourself and 239 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.480 others about your journey and to speak in your authentic voice, 240 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.279 whatever the consequences were, and to come to this point 241 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:33.279 in your life when so many other people will never 242 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:36.320 get there. I say, you inspire me, and that's I'm 243 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.440 not trying to be fake or Sacharin. 244 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:38.919 I'm like. 245 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:43.679 Yours is a remarkable story, and that's the encouragement I 246 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.840 give other people, because it does take a lot of courage, 247 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:49.240 and a lot of times people pay a terrible price 248 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.840 with the crime of being an authentic person. 249 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.679 Were there any advantages you found from going through this 250 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:01.639 process publicly? Was it helpful but having a way to 251 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.440 explain your abuse to people who may have questions that 252 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.399 they could help them understand, or did it help you 253 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.279 went through any issues. 254 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.360 One thing about being an ex evangelical is I have 255 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.919 a kind of equity in conversations about Christianity. So if 256 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:22.120 someone comes up to me with one of the standard protests, 257 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.600 no one who ever knew the love of Jesus would 258 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:27.200 have ever walked away, or you don't know what true 259 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:31.639 Christianity is, or that's not what the Bible says. After 260 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.919 an entire lifetime or at least thirty some years in 261 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.279 the faith. Yeah. No, I was absolutely sincere, and I 262 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:41.679 did believe it when I said the Salvation prayer, and 263 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.000 I did understand what the culture is like. Everything I 264 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:50.679 did was Christian, everything we said was Christian. And then 265 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:54.039 part of my deconstruction was an even deeper dive into 266 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:55.919 a Bible I thought I knew at the time, but 267 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.440 going back, of course, we like, oh was that verse 268 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:01.240 in their Holy Cow? I never read this scripture this 269 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.759 way before, Oh what's this about? And it's interesting because 270 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:08.960 I knew more about the Bible than many of its defenders. 271 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:14.720 So having those decades inside the faith has I lament 272 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.559 the wasted years, and I beat myself up sometimes for 273 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.480 being too thick to figure out that maybe an Old 274 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:25.000 Testament donkey did not speak in Hebrew, right, I mean, 275 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:29.080 this is basic. But the upside is is that I 276 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:32.679 can speak with authority about what happens behind church walls 277 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.759 and what is within the covers of the Christian Bible, 278 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:39.120 and that has helped me in my efforts to help 279 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.080 others deconstruct and to sound my protests about a superstition 280 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:47.159 which does provide some good things, but has way too 281 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:48.919 much baggage for me to support. 282 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.200 And I guess you know the arguments that they were 283 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:57.279 put forward. I always wonder looking back at the time, 284 00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:59.200 what would you have said, was the strongest argument that 285 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:00.960 you knew of for the truth to Christianity. 286 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.440 For me, it was more of a defensive posture. Here's 287 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:09.240 what Christians are often, even if we're not realized, we're 288 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.720 trained to do it. The science and nature and the 289 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:16.720 evidence proves God. And then someone brings evidence that doesn't 290 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.240 add up, and we say, it's not about evidence. God 291 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.120 exists beyond the natural. This is a matter of faith. 292 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:26.519 I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and so I 293 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:30.679 always had a fallback position. I wasn't engaging non believers 294 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:33.080 a lot when I was in the faith because I 295 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.519 was just surrounded by Christians. I was in a reinforcement culture. 296 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:38.200 We just knew we were right. We didn't have to 297 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.240 answer ask any more questions because we already had the 298 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.159 answer with the capital Hey, it's one of those things 299 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.960 like we were taught to make fun in Charles Darwin, 300 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:49.519 none of us had ever cracked open on the origin 301 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:54.840 of species or taken a legitimate evolutionary biology class, So 302 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:56.919 we knew he was wrong, but we didn't know what 303 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.639 he was talking about, and that's kind of the faith. 304 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.120 But a lot of it really came down to he 305 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.639 lives in my heart and I just know it in 306 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.600 my heart, and that's this weird spot where because people 307 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:13.320 can't read minds, because clearvoyancy isn't real, then we felt safe. 308 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:16.200 But beyond that, it was the typical stuff. How could 309 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.200 you look at the birth of a beautiful baby, how 310 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:21.639 could you see the design? How complex the world is? 311 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.039 We saw complexity, and we saw great engineering. And of 312 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.080 course engineers will tell you that the most amazing pieces 313 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.559 of engineering are the ones that are distilled down to 314 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.360 simplicity with the least amount of waste. But we just 315 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:37.919 saw complicated stuff and we thought, wow, it's beyond me 316 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.759 Jesus kind of thing. But you know, probably the personal 317 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.159 relationship argument was the one I used the most. 318 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.080 Yeah, and I guess that's the hardest one to challenge 319 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:47.120 from the outside as well. 320 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:50.039 How do you know what I'm thinking? How do you 321 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:53.200 know if there wasn't a magical moment inside my body 322 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.240 and my mind? Well, how do you prove I don't 323 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.399 have a soul? It's one of those things where because 324 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:02.000 they can't crawl into my skull, I'm supposedly able to 325 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.119 quote unquote win the argument. 326 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.240 It's pretty convenient. 327 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:11.000 And now that you're an active leader advocate within the 328 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.519 atheist humanist movement globally, how do we avoid some of 329 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.279 those same mistakes of falling into groupthink and the arrogance 330 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:20.720 of going we know that we're right. 331 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:24.920 And there's a lot of that. It's funny, I'm preparing 332 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.640 this speech. I don't know if I'm going to give 333 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:31.960 it this year. That I may do this speech, I 334 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:37.960 may do it this fall, and many of the non 335 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.839 religious in my circles are going to get it, and 336 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.440 they're going to go with it, and they're going to 337 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:45.839 support it, and they are going to be others who 338 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:50.319 lose their minds. And it's about how we who are 339 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:55.759 not religious are not immune from being emotional bags of 340 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.400 animated meat. Right, we're all primates. We look for things 341 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:02.759 that reinforces what we already think and who we already are, 342 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.279 and we can be very knee jerky. And I found 343 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:12.400 that atheism is not an inoculation against irrationality or awfulness. 344 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:17.279 I've met flat earth atheists I've met anti vaccine atheist. 345 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:21.920 I've met just nasty, mean, toxic human beings who happen 346 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:24.519 do not believe in a God. So I don't believe 347 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.079 in God doesn't guarantee anything else about you. I would 348 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.960 like to think that removing the god baggage might prime 349 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.839 you a little more possibly to edge into a natural 350 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:40.640 world existence, a science based existence. But you know, we 351 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.640 make a lot of mistakes. I'm often online when I 352 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:47.920 see my fellow atheists, humanists, progressive, and they'll post some 353 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.240 sort of meme about the religious that is totally untrue 354 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.079 and unfair. Religion is a mental illness. 355 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:55.839 No, it's not. 356 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.440 I wasn't mentally ill when I was a devout believer 357 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.160 in Jesus. It's horrible argument, and why in the world 358 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.920 would you ever say it. There was one that I 359 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.079 saw where why are Sunday so peaceful? It's because the 360 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.799 evil people are at church? You know, somebody actually posted 361 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:16.079 that one. Politically, a lot of people like to post stuff. 362 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:18.839 And I'm a huge critic of President Donald Trump. I 363 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.440 just despise the man and what he represents. But people 364 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:26.039 will post things about him, quotes that he never actually said, 365 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:29.400 and I have to come forward and say he never 366 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.319 said this quote, and they get mad at me because, well, 367 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:35.359 it sounds like something you would have said. And why 368 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:36.920 in the world would you take a moment to talk 369 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:39.319 about what's wrong with us when so much more is 370 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.960 wrong with him? And I'm like, this is an example 371 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:46.200 of how we often become less interested in being right 372 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:52.160 than sounding right or being proven right or being validated. 373 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.920 And you know, we're all flawed, fallible human beings, and 374 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.119 so you know, it's the difference, I think between atheism 375 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.960 and rationalism. And I get it wrong. I've shared stuff 376 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:02.279 I found out was wrong and had to go retract it, 377 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.680 have that horrible ideas, and I'm like, oh, what was 378 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.079 I thinking. But once we acknowledge that we are not 379 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.920 immune because we use the A word in regard to ourselves, 380 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.839 it does open us up to live a more honest, 381 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:17.279 a more difficult, certainly even a more honest life when 382 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:19.880 it comes to trying to figure out what is true. 383 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:23.599 Robert green Ingersol famously said the more false we destroy, 384 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.400 the more room there will be for the true. And 385 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.279 I've taken that coda up in my own life. 386 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:29.880 It's a goal. 387 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.680 Let's destroy the false so we can make room for 388 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.839 the true, and if that includes something that we have believed, 389 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.559 something that was said, or a bad statement about religious 390 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.119 people or whatever, we need to destroy that. 391 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.079 So we can make more room for the truth. 392 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.440 It's a good quote because it doesn't say that whatever's 393 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.920 left is true. Yeah, you still have to do the work. 394 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.039 And as some of that just comes from such a superior, smug, 395 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.160 reductive attitude. Most of the people in my life for 396 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:05.440 religious and they're not evil, they're not wicked, they're not Nazis. 397 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:08.279 And I think, well, what are you trying to accomplish. 398 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.200 This's just tribalism, which is what we say they're guilty of. 399 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.759 This is us being the superior tribe. We are the lofty, 400 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:20.759 meritorious in group, and they are the troglodite out group, 401 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:25.440