Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The Texas
Speaker 1: Tribune Tribecast for Tuesday, November eleventh. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff, law
Speaker 1: and politics reporter at the Texas Tribune, joined this week
Speaker 1: by special guest hosts politics reporter Alejandro Serrano.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me absolutely.
Speaker 1: Matthew will be back with us next week and just
Speaker 1: for a bit of housekeeping, next week's episode will not
Speaker 1: be on YouTube because it will be coming at you
Speaker 1: from the Texas Tribune Tribe Fest.
Speaker 2: Where we will be recording audio.
Speaker 1: You can get it where you get your podcast audio usually,
Speaker 1: but we will not be on YouTube. We will come
Speaker 1: back to YouTube the week after and that is a
Speaker 1: panel with a tri cast conversation with former House Speaker
Speaker 1: Dade Feelin. So if you don't want to miss that
Speaker 1: converse and many other important conversations, make sure you join
Speaker 1: us at Tripfest later this week.
Speaker 2: But that's not what we're here to talk about. It's
Speaker 2: all Hudro.
Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, you and our colleague kay La
Speaker 1: Guo reported on a very Texas political episode, a this
Speaker 1: could only happen in Texas sort of situation relating to
Speaker 1: the governance of the Alamo Historic Site.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people have feelings about the ELBM
Speaker 3: and a lot of people care about the Alamo, and
Speaker 3: we saw this growing outrage start with sort of a
Speaker 3: social media post escalate sort of perpetually, very exponentially quickly,
Speaker 3: and then the Lieutenant Governor called to the firing of
Speaker 3: the president who oversees the board of the manch just
Speaker 3: the Alamo, and today that former leader is here with
Speaker 3: us today.
Speaker 4: Kay Rogers, thank you for joining.
Speaker 5: Us, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the trip cast.
Speaker 1: Before we get into all the bruhaha, which we're going
Speaker 1: to sort of unpack for people who either you know,
Speaker 1: didn't didn't follow that or sort of at the details
Speaker 1: of it, but just start off, like, what is the
Speaker 1: Alamo Trust?
Speaker 2: What was your role there?
Speaker 6: Certainly so, the Alamo Trust is a nonprofit organization that
Speaker 6: is contracted by the State of Texas via the Texas
Speaker 6: General Land Office to oversee the daily operations of the Alamo,
Speaker 6: but also to implement and realize the five hundred and
Speaker 6: fifty million dollar Alamo Plan, which is the redevelopment effort
Speaker 6: that is currently underway on the grounds.
Speaker 3: How long did you work there, because we were recently president,
Speaker 3: but you've been overseeing this for several years now.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So I was brought on in the spring of twenty
Speaker 6: twenty one, so about four and a half years I
Speaker 6: was there.
Speaker 2: And what's your background?
Speaker 6: Interestingly, I'm not a historian by training. I'm in, you know, passionate.
Speaker 6: My personal passion is around education because I am the daughter, granddaughter,
Speaker 6: and sister of Texas public school educator. So education has
Speaker 6: kind of been a thing for me. So I spent
Speaker 6: most of my career at AGB actually at the company
Speaker 6: for eighteen years. My last post was vice president of
Speaker 6: Communications and Culture at AGIB. Then I left the company
Speaker 6: and I went to go work for Charles but for
Speaker 6: several years helping him with some of his activities, including
Speaker 6: the Holsworth Center that support public school leaders and public
Speaker 6: school teachers. And then got called by a recruiter sort
Speaker 6: of out of the blue about this position at the Alamo.
Speaker 6: Didn't know to your question earlier, that the Trust was
Speaker 6: even an entity at that time.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: I mean, CHIB the fourth branch of the Texas government
Speaker 1: as we consider it.
Speaker 6: Especially when it comes to disaster relief, right, nobody does
Speaker 6: it better than.
Speaker 5: HIB, that's for sure.
Speaker 4: What drew you to the job.
Speaker 6: A few things, right, I really was attracted by the board,
Speaker 6: just a great group of people.
Speaker 5: My interview with them was really.
Speaker 6: Wonderful, and then I went down to the grounds to visit,
Speaker 6: you know. And for many years it's been talk of
Speaker 6: doing something with the Alamo in San Antonio. You know,
Speaker 6: Sometimes visitors would come and they would say something like
Speaker 6: is that it?
Speaker 5: Or I thought it would be much bigger, you know.
Speaker 6: So there's often been this sentiment, not by all, but
Speaker 6: by some that the visit itself was somewhat underwhelming. And
Speaker 6: so there's been multiple versions of this thing we call
Speaker 6: the Alamo Plan that have been advanced over the years.
Speaker 6: This one that is currently being implemented is the only
Speaker 6: one that has successfully garnered strong support from the city
Speaker 6: of San Antonio, Bear County, and the State of Texas.
Speaker 6: In the state of Texas obviously the biggest contributor to
Speaker 6: the project.
Speaker 2: What when you took that job, did you sort of
Speaker 2: understand the.
Speaker 1: Fights that were going on around the Alamo, and like,
Speaker 1: if you had to characterize it, like what is the
Speaker 1: conflict we are still having over the Alamo?
Speaker 6: So I don't think there's any way to actually know
Speaker 6: the complexity of the work unless you're working there. I
Speaker 6: knew what I read in the paper because right before
Speaker 6: I came on board, sort of at the end of
Speaker 6: twenty twenty, there was a big brew haha, because the
Speaker 6: prior plan. Ironically, today, on this very day, they're reopening
Speaker 6: the Cenotaph, which is the monument to the Alamo Defenders.
Speaker 6: And many years ago or so before I came on,
Speaker 6: there was a plan that called for moving the cenotaph
Speaker 6: from the battlefield storted down the street in front of
Speaker 6: the Mangro Hotel, and very controversial. It was voted down
Speaker 6: by the Texas Historic Commission, and pretty much there was
Speaker 6: a complete reset of the project called for by the
Speaker 6: Mayor of San Antonio at the time. So there were
Speaker 6: new players put in board at the put in position,
Speaker 6: at the board level, at the staff level, you know,
Speaker 6: enter Kate Rodgers, and I honestly did not fully understand.
Speaker 5: I don't think there's any way you could.
Speaker 1: I mean, this has been sort of bubbling up for
Speaker 1: so long in various ways.
Speaker 2: I mean, what is the issue here, right?
Speaker 1: It's about how we teach the history of the Alamo,
Speaker 1: which is so central to Texas's history but has gotten.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, like, what is the conflict here?
Speaker 6: I think there's multiple sources of conflict, right, So one
Speaker 6: of those.
Speaker 5: Is the fact that the property itself is.
Speaker 6: Co owned by the city of San Antonio in the
Speaker 6: state of Texas. So why do I bring up this
Speaker 6: idea of consensus between the county, the city, et cetera.
Speaker 6: So the first step in getting any of this done
Speaker 6: was a lease agreement that needed to be negotiated between
Speaker 6: the city and the state because the state owns, you know,
Speaker 6: the Alamo Church and the Long Barrack, the two most
Speaker 6: important artifacts, and the grounds behind it, but everything sort
Speaker 6: of to the west of that Alamo Plaza included, is
Speaker 6: actually owned by the city of San Antonio. So in
Speaker 6: order to get this plan moving forward, the two had
Speaker 6: to agree. And politically that's not always the case, right.
Speaker 6: You have a very conservative leadership at the state level,
Speaker 6: very blue leadership at the city level, and so you know,
Speaker 6: it took a lot of brokering to get everybody to
Speaker 6: come to the table and agree that this was the
Speaker 6: right path forward. So I think that's one thing. The
Speaker 6: other thing that you mentioned, Alejandro, is it's not that
Speaker 6: we don't love the Alamo. It's that we love the
Speaker 6: Alamo too much. So there's so many opinions about what
Speaker 6: should be done, what shouldn't be done, And yes, that
Speaker 6: relates to the story that will be told, but it
Speaker 6: also relates to the physical space itself. You know, some
Speaker 6: people would say, is this even needed? Why just leave
Speaker 6: it alone? Why even undertake this massive project. You know,
Speaker 6: other side of the spectrum would say, you know, take
Speaker 6: it all the way back, you know, bring back the
Speaker 6: original battlefield and its original footprint, which would have been
Speaker 6: two feet lower than where it is now. So there's
Speaker 6: just very strong views on all sides about all things,
Speaker 6: including the cenotaph. Obviously, then you have the narrative and
Speaker 6: you know, let's face it, we're living in an interesting
Speaker 6: time right now, not just in Texas but across the
Speaker 6: country and how we interpret our history and the idea
Speaker 6: and again the partnership between the city and the state
Speaker 6: actually calls for and the least agreement itself, it calls
Speaker 6: for telling.
Speaker 5: Them full history of the site.
Speaker 6: Most people, the Alumo gets somewhere around one point six
Speaker 6: million visitors a year. Most people are coming because they
Speaker 6: know about the Battle of eighteen thirty six it's you know,
Speaker 6: no one would argue that's the most important event that
Speaker 6: happened on the site, and it's the reason that most
Speaker 6: people come. They want to learn more about it. They've
Speaker 6: you know, either watched a movie or read a book.
Speaker 6: You know, they know about Davy Crockett, and they want
Speaker 6: to kind of unpack what happened there. But a lot
Speaker 6: of people don't know that it was actually a Spanish mission.
Speaker 6: It was the first of the five missions in San Antonio,
Speaker 6: and so there's just this great opportunity to teach people
Speaker 6: about out the full history, what happened before the battle
Speaker 6: and what happened after, while still keeping the battle as
Speaker 6: the central focal point.
Speaker 4: I think, thank you for that reflection.
Speaker 3: We certainly want to get to like all you accomplished
Speaker 3: and you know, and reading about you, it's interesting how
Speaker 3: you know, you often have press releases in conferences where
Speaker 3: you were celebrated for some of the things that you
Speaker 3: did in the last couple of years. But you know,
Speaker 3: to get to the last company you're talking about the narrative.
Speaker 3: There was one thing in particular that sparked a whole
Speaker 3: new wave of backlashing narrative, and it's this post on
Speaker 3: Indigenous People's Day. Could you tell us more about that.
Speaker 3: It wasn't the first time the Alamo posted this post
Speaker 3: on social media, but this year it exploded.
Speaker 5: It did so.
Speaker 6: Yes, to your point, for the last couple of years,
Speaker 6: there's been a post that reflects, you know, sort of
Speaker 6: all the things that are represented on that specific day,
Speaker 6: one representing indigenous peoples. Why would the Alamo post about
Speaker 6: indigenous peoples? The Alamo itself, the structure was actually built
Speaker 6: by indigenous hands, so you know, it was a mission.
Speaker 6: There were people being converted in the mission, and the
Speaker 6: people who were actually doing the labor were.
Speaker 5: Of Indigenous descent.
Speaker 6: At the same time, we would normally post a Happy
Speaker 6: Columbus Day again you know, yes, Italian explorer but also
Speaker 6: funded by the Spanish crown to come to to explore
Speaker 6: what we know today as America, right, even though we
Speaker 6: never technically got here. But that's beside the point. But
Speaker 6: given the rich history and the relationship between Spain and
Speaker 6: the Alamo, and also the local American Indian tribes or
Speaker 6: Native American or whatever you want to call them, it
Speaker 6: sort of made sense that we would honor both.
Speaker 1: Did you expect any backlash to making an Indigenous People's
Speaker 1: Day post.
Speaker 4: No, what were you doing? Can you take us to
Speaker 4: that moment?
Speaker 6: Well, I wasn't even Let's be clear, I wasn't even
Speaker 6: in San Antonio when that. So, you know, like most organizations,
Speaker 6: there's a calendar by which things are posted. No, I
Speaker 6: was not the person who was actually putting the post up.
Speaker 6: And I think that the communications director was just following
Speaker 6: what he'd done for the past several years, and none
Speaker 6: of us were, you know, shame on us. We're monitoring
Speaker 6: at the federal level changes within the administration and calls
Speaker 6: for not the elimination of Indigenous people, say, but to
Speaker 6: really celebrate Columbus's contributions to the country. And so I
Speaker 6: think he thought he was doing the right thing by
Speaker 6: posting both. I was actually so I went to undergraduate
Speaker 6: at TCU. I was at TCU to give a lecture
Speaker 6: on the Alamo in their public History department, and so,
Speaker 6: you know, I got this phone call. You know, we
Speaker 6: took the post down, tried to do damage control, obviously unsuccessfully, and.
Speaker 1: We should say Land Commissioner Don Buckingham, who has jurisdiction
Speaker 1: over the Alamo, it sort of tweeted woke has no
Speaker 1: place at the Alamo and announced an investigation into this
Speaker 1: tweet sort of and then started, you know, blasting.
Speaker 2: Off an email to her supporters like this really became.
Speaker 1: A certainly at least the way it was being portrayed
Speaker 1: in the stories like sort of Don Buckingham versus you know,
Speaker 1: the woke Alamo. Just from that individual experience, I mean,
Speaker 1: what do you see as like the full picture there,
Speaker 1: like what it was being missed in that retelling of
Speaker 1: how that went down.
Speaker 5: I don't know that there's anything being missed.
Speaker 6: I mean I think it's pretty self explanatory because it
Speaker 6: was also public, right.
Speaker 5: You know, these are posts on social.
Speaker 6: Media and tweets about you know, what one side believes
Speaker 6: and what you know versus the other. And in my view,
Speaker 6: woke is a you know, it's a term. It's a
Speaker 6: police political term that is, you know, thrown around a
Speaker 6: lot in today's world to describe any number of activities.
Speaker 6: You know, I think everything we did at the Almo,
Speaker 6: or I did at the Almo. You know, there was
Speaker 6: no movement, if you will, to not honor the men
Speaker 6: who died, who fought and died there. That was definitely
Speaker 6: not something that was underway in the new Visitor Center museum.
Speaker 6: The largest gallery is dedicated to the battle. The interesting
Speaker 6: thing about it is that, you know, this narrative that's
Speaker 6: been being developed to inform all the exhibits and so forth,
Speaker 6: that's been going on for you know, a few years.
Speaker 6: So it was interesting that this all the sudden became
Speaker 6: this flash point. You know, that that all of a sudden,
Speaker 6: it's it's.
Speaker 3: Woke, right, And was it just that? Or do you
Speaker 3: think there was more to it? Like I think you
Speaker 3: said another interview, that's a million dollar question whether this
Speaker 3: post was really it? But was What was your relationship
Speaker 3: like with you know, state leaders and your colleagues, Like
Speaker 3: what were their tensions?
Speaker 4: Like what was the lead up to this? Yeah?
Speaker 6: I mean I think at times there were tensions, not
Speaker 6: so much with the Lieutenant Governor's office, but the General
Speaker 6: Land Office in particular is exceptionally involved in the project
Speaker 6: and you know, wants to have a lot of involvement
Speaker 6: in many of the daily decisions that are made there.
Speaker 2: How did that play out, like how did that work
Speaker 2: with you? Was there conflict over that?
Speaker 6: I wouldn't say there was ever outright conflict. There were rumors,
Speaker 6: you know, but that's hearsay, I don't know that rumors
Speaker 6: that the commissioner was not a fan of mine. You know,
Speaker 6: we never had an exchange, a conflict, an altercation, anything
Speaker 6: of that nature. But there were you know, buzz out
Speaker 6: there that you know, she's not a fan of yours.
Speaker 3: So this bubbles over a couple of days, and then
Speaker 3: the next flashpoint is the Lieutenant Governor's letter that I
Speaker 3: mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, and when he
Speaker 3: quoted your dissertation, he quoted like a couple sentences from
Speaker 3: I think it's very long.
Speaker 5: I speed read it, very long and very boring, Aleandre.
Speaker 3: But I want you to tell us about it and
Speaker 3: why you decided to go down that path of inquiry, because,
Speaker 3: you know, reading it, in hindsight, it seems like some
Speaker 3: of the things you you wrote about and believed in
Speaker 3: you kind of accomplished, especially when it came to like
Speaker 3: treating the historical site as a place where teachers and
Speaker 3: students can really learn and kind of engage with their history.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean it might be woke on my part. I
Speaker 6: don't I've never considered myself woke. Right, I'm a member
Speaker 6: of the Daughters of the Republic of Texas. I'm a
Speaker 6: descendant of the original Canary Island family, one of them
Speaker 6: that settled San Antonio in seventeen thirty one. You know,
Speaker 6: my dad was a West Point graduate who served five
Speaker 6: tours in Vietnam. I've never considered myself woke, so it's
Speaker 6: interesting to have that label placed upon me. Definitely Texan, Texan,
Speaker 6: Texan through and through for sure, and so it was
Speaker 6: a great honor to be at the Alamo, you know.
Speaker 6: So I'm not one hundred percent sure how you know
Speaker 6: that characterization got got made?
Speaker 2: How did you come to write to.
Speaker 6: For anybody who's ever written a dissertation, you know that
Speaker 6: the selection of a topic can be a very arduous
Speaker 6: process because it has to be something so specific that
Speaker 6: you can that one person could actually tackle the research
Speaker 6: and write about it. So you start out with something
Speaker 6: really grand that you think is going to change the world,
Speaker 6: and you end up with this very very you know,
Speaker 6: minor topic that you spend several years of your life
Speaker 6: writing and learning about. So mine was on the role
Speaker 6: of US historic sites and museums in supporting social studies
Speaker 6: instruction and Kate twelve classrooms. So you have the intersection
Speaker 6: of my passion around education. I was getting a doctorate
Speaker 6: degree in global education at the University of Southern California,
Speaker 6: and so, you know, my research sites were Monticello, Mount Vernon, Gettysburg,
Speaker 6: and the National World War Two Museum in New Orleans.
Speaker 6: And I really thoroughly enjoyed the topic. And I was
Speaker 6: going to say earlier to your question at Alijandro. So
Speaker 6: one of the things that came out of that was
Speaker 6: I attended these multi day professional development experiences for teachers
Speaker 6: that happen at these really well known sites, and they're
Speaker 6: all expenses paid. You know, teachers can come, they can
Speaker 6: really stand in the place where history happened, they can
Speaker 6: interact with living historians who are Thomas Jefferson or George Washington.
Speaker 6: Just a really special, meaningful experience. And so we started
Speaker 6: doing those at the Alamo. But one of them is
Speaker 6: actually to Mexico City for five days of professional development
Speaker 6: a partnership with UNAM. You really help teachers understand the
Speaker 6: connectedness between Mexican history and Texas history. For some that
Speaker 6: might be considered woke. For the teachers, it was a
Speaker 6: really rewarding experience.
Speaker 3: And it's also a Texas component right where there they
Speaker 3: do like a also development in some of the battlefields here.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so there's a Texas Revolution road trip where you know,
Speaker 6: again to really understand the revolution in its entirety. So
Speaker 6: it starts at the Alamo and then moves on to Goliad,
Speaker 6: Washington on the brass because of course the Constitution was
Speaker 6: being signed at the same time, you know, and nobody
Speaker 6: knew what was happening at the Alamo versus the the
Speaker 6: attendees at Washington on the Brasas, then on to San
Speaker 6: Felipe d Austin, and then finally San Jacinto on San
Speaker 6: Jacinto Day. So the teachers kind of get to walk
Speaker 6: in the footsteps of those who fought all of those
Speaker 6: battles as part of the revolution.
Speaker 4: And part of it.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you objection to me reading, but
Speaker 3: you know, kind of it is like you were really
Speaker 3: candid in some of these views, and this was ears
Speaker 3: like you know, at one.
Speaker 5: Apparently too candid.
Speaker 1: Just for clarity, this dissertation was written while you were
Speaker 1: working at the partially partially at the Element partially, So.
Speaker 6: I mean you have to remember that a dissertation is
Speaker 6: written over several years, and so part of it was
Speaker 6: written I started the program before I got to the Alamo,
Speaker 6: and then part of it, yes, would have been written afterward.
Speaker 6: And as you're evolving and you're writing the various chapters,
Speaker 6: there's a lot of cutting and pasting of things you
Speaker 6: wrote before that's being well, this belongs in this section
Speaker 6: or that section. And when this all came up, honestly,
Speaker 6: I had to go find my dissertation and read what
Speaker 6: I had written, because I honestly couldn't remember, and I
Speaker 6: was thinking, what did I write that was so offensive?
Speaker 6: Because again, if you've ever written a dissertation, you know
Speaker 6: that no one ever reads them other than your committee.
Speaker 6: So your audience for your dissertation is largely your committee, right,
Speaker 6: your chair and the committee members. And for this in particular,
Speaker 6: I was my committee were faculty members at the University
Speaker 6: of Southern California who really have no visibility into politics
Speaker 6: in Texas.
Speaker 5: So I was trying to explain the environment to them.
Speaker 5: Was the point of the section that was pulled out,
Speaker 5: and some.
Speaker 4: Of your views as well. Again, I just wanted to
Speaker 4: read this for listeners. We said.
Speaker 3: Philosophically, I do not believe it is the role of
Speaker 3: politicians to determine what professional educators can or should teach
Speaker 3: in the classroom. Instead, teachers should be afforded the autonomy
Speaker 3: to make those decisions based on their own expertise as
Speaker 3: well as their needs the needs of their students.
Speaker 1: It feels pretty straightforward, right, You're essentially saying politicians should
Speaker 1: not play a role in dictating sort.
Speaker 2: Of how this history is taught.
Speaker 4: Is that.
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 1: Did you consider that to be a controversial statement at
Speaker 1: the time, obviously not.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a different time, you know, it was a
Speaker 6: few years ago. Things have changed. I don't think that
Speaker 6: some of the things that are happening today were happening then.
Speaker 6: I'm not the only person who's you know, been singled
Speaker 6: out in this fashion. It's happening in our universities, you know,
Speaker 6: the president of A and M just recently, you know,
Speaker 6: I I think it's it's it is interesting that, you know,
Speaker 6: politicians who publicly support the right to free speech and
Speaker 6: actually argue for the right to free speech, are you know,
Speaker 6: sort of saying, well but not not when you write
Speaker 6: something that is potentially critical of something we believe, do.
Speaker 2: You feel like that hypocritical of them?
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's this shift that you're talking
Speaker 1: about is sort of contradictory.
Speaker 6: You know, I think you can't be selective if you
Speaker 6: if you stand for the First Amendment right, and you
Speaker 6: stand for people's right to express their own views, their
Speaker 6: own opinions, even if they disagree with you. I don't
Speaker 6: think you can be selective in your defense of the
Speaker 6: First Amendment. You're either supportive of it or you're not.
Speaker 1: In an op ed, Lieutenant Governor Dean Patrick pulled out
Speaker 1: a partner thesis on which you said the Alamo should
Speaker 1: be quoting a beacon for historical reconciliation. Do you still
Speaker 1: believe that that's sort of Is that how you would
Speaker 1: frame that today?
Speaker 6: It's interesting because historical reconciliation is an academic term, right.
Speaker 6: So look, there are all sorts of boogeyman things that
Speaker 6: are quoted in my dissertation, one of them the Forget
Speaker 6: the Alamo Book. I'm not suggesting that I was a
Speaker 6: fan or am today a fan of the Forget the
Speaker 6: Alamo Book. It just I was trying to explain that
Speaker 6: it came out right when I got there, and it
Speaker 6: created all of this controversy.
Speaker 5: That was the only reason for bringing it up. What
Speaker 5: did you ask me?
Speaker 1: I think that like just sort of do you stand
Speaker 1: by the idea that it should be a beacon for
Speaker 1: historical reconsiam.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So.
Speaker 6: At that time I also mentioned critical race theory, which
Speaker 6: you know is also a big flashpoint the thing for me,
Speaker 6: as you know, a person writing a dissertation, most of us,
Speaker 6: in my experience, I went.
Speaker 5: To school public schools in Texas.
Speaker 6: I didn't learn about theoretical frameworks until I was working
Speaker 6: on my doctoral degree, where you're sort of searching for
Speaker 6: a framework around which your research will be based, right
Speaker 6: so Colb's experiential learning theory or you know, some of
Speaker 6: my classmates would use critical race theory. But I never
Speaker 6: experienced in my public school years that theoretical frameworks were
Speaker 6: even a part of K twelve education, you know. But
Speaker 6: it became this big thing, sort of similar to the
Speaker 6: term well, you know, it's it's a label that has
Speaker 6: become more of a political term in my view, to say,
Speaker 6: you know, I don't agree with this person, you're this,
Speaker 6: you're that. You know, so I'm sure that's what was
Speaker 6: in my head when I was writing this.
Speaker 5: Again, I had to go back and look at what
Speaker 5: I had written, because I had you once you're done
Speaker 5: with that thing.
Speaker 6: Everyone knows the best kind of dissertation is a done dissertation,
Speaker 6: and you put the thing on your on your shelf
Speaker 6: and probably never to be heard from again. The fascinating thing.
Speaker 6: So there's two things I want to say. A is
Speaker 6: I have been overwhelmed by the number of people who
Speaker 6: have reached out to offer their support, you know, letters
Speaker 6: to the editor in San Antonio. Friends, I haven't talked
Speaker 6: to you since high school who read about this, and
Speaker 6: there's a lot of you know, concern, sometimes anger, you
Speaker 6: know that this this was not a fair thing. Not
Speaker 6: for me to decide that, obviously, but I've also been
Speaker 6: floored how many people have said, well, I read your
Speaker 6: dissertation and I thought you did, and they'll say, yeah,
Speaker 6: I read it, and I didn't really see what was
Speaker 6: so offensive about it. I talked to one reporter who said,
Speaker 6: it's not even about the Alamo, and I said, I
Speaker 6: know it's not, but for whatever reason, it became a
Speaker 6: very offensive thing before.
Speaker 3: Three weeks ago. Had anyone read it? Have you received
Speaker 3: any pushback, especially in sho.
Speaker 6: No, I've never even had because sometimes the only time
Speaker 6: someone might reference your dissertation is someone who is doing
Speaker 6: research on a similar topic, right, and then they'll reach
Speaker 6: out to the researcher to say, hey, you know, I'm
Speaker 6: working on a similar paper and they may have a
Speaker 6: question for you. But I've never even had that. I've
Speaker 6: never had anyone mention it. So it does, you know
Speaker 6: the million dollar question about how all of this transpired?
Speaker 6: Also who went and found it and why?
Speaker 2: And do you know who flagged this to the Lieutenant governor?
Speaker 5: I do not.
Speaker 1: How did you reach the decision to resign? I mean
Speaker 1: where walk us through that experience?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 6: I was asked to resign, so and you you know,
Speaker 6: just like I didn't want to be a distraction.
Speaker 1: To the product the moment you were asked to resign,
Speaker 1: essentially being told like the implication there being you'll be fired,
Speaker 1: which you're not going to get to that point in
Speaker 1: all likelihood. So like, what was that experience of getting
Speaker 1: that like order more or less and how did you
Speaker 1: come to like, yes, it's time.
Speaker 6: Well, I I was obviously very upset. I really loved
Speaker 6: my job at the Almo and I felt like we
Speaker 6: were doing good work, you know, so this wasn't anything
Speaker 6: based on my performance per se. Right, So technically, even
Speaker 6: though the general land office is really the one overseeing
Speaker 6: everything at the project. Technically, I reported to the board,
Speaker 6: two boards of the Trust and the remember the Alamo Foundation,
Speaker 6: and by all accounts, all of my reviews and evaluations
Speaker 6: were always very positive. I was promoted in September. I
Speaker 6: had a very positive review by the board in June.
Speaker 6: So it was a bit of a shock. And it
Speaker 6: all happened so fast. You know, within twenty five twenty
Speaker 6: four hours. You know, we found your dissertation. You know,
Speaker 6: the language is very concerning, and I think here's the
Speaker 6: part that I can understand why they said that you
Speaker 6: just can't do this job, because it sounded like I
Speaker 6: was being critical of the legislature in the in what
Speaker 6: I wrote, And the legislature is the largest donor, they're
Speaker 6: the funder of the project, and so I could see
Speaker 6: how we can't have someone running this project who sounds
Speaker 6: ungrateful or critical of the largest donor to the project.
Speaker 6: So that part I understood. It just all happened so fast.
Speaker 6: So I really didn't have a lot of time to
Speaker 6: process what was happening because there was you know, we
Speaker 6: found your dissertation. The next morning. You know, we're going
Speaker 6: to you need to resign now it's on X, you know,
Speaker 6: and I really was just reeling from the whole experience
Speaker 6: because it was so sudden.
Speaker 3: Yeah, at the beginning of the conversation, when we were
Speaker 3: talking about Indigenous people say posts, you mentioned something about
Speaker 3: how maybe you or others could have paid more attention
Speaker 3: to the federal government. You also mentioned, when I was
Speaker 3: about to read the pastes that perhaps you're too candidate.
Speaker 4: Do you have regrets through any of this? Like, how
Speaker 4: how do you feel? Now?
Speaker 6: That's a great question, and it probably changes a little
Speaker 6: bit every day.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: I feel like this week, I'm just now kind.
Speaker 6: Of getting my feet under me and starting to think
Speaker 6: about the future and what I'm going to do next
Speaker 6: and how I can still contribute and so forth. Of course,
Speaker 6: when this all came out, I thought, well, gosh, I
Speaker 6: wish I hadn't written that, But I went back read
Speaker 6: it and it probably was what was in my heart
Speaker 6: at the time. I didn't really know the Lieutenant Governor
Speaker 6: well before I took this project on, you know, never
Speaker 6: had a you know, tense working relationship with him. I
Speaker 6: found him to be very supportive and his love of
Speaker 6: the I'll know to be quite genuine. So I, like
Speaker 6: I said, for me, it was mostly just a huge
Speaker 6: surprise and very upsetting.
Speaker 4: Do you still believe some of the things you've written.
Speaker 5: I do believe that teachers should be treated like professionals.
Speaker 5: I do. I mean how could I not.
Speaker 6: I mean, my older sister, you know, is now an
Speaker 6: administration but one of the finest educator educators I've ever known,
Speaker 6: and given my background, I think it's one of the
Speaker 6: hardest jobs that anyone can possibly have because it requires
Speaker 6: so much patience and creativity and you know, how are
Speaker 6: you going to bring an individual topic to life to
Speaker 6: you know, spark curiosity and all these very diverse young people.
Speaker 6: And it's becoming a harder job in today's world.
Speaker 5: So I obviously have.
Speaker 6: A bias towards, you know, not over prescribing what teachers
Speaker 6: can and should do in the classroom. But that's a
Speaker 6: personal bias that I acknowledge, and not everyone feels that way.
Speaker 1: And I mean you've sort of we've alluded to like
Speaker 1: things have changed, things are shifting, our political moment is
Speaker 1: changing all of that. I mean, as someone who was
Speaker 1: sort of inside the government to a certain extent, I mean,
Speaker 1: how do you feel like that shift in Texas has
Speaker 1: impacted things like, you know, who gets to keep their job,
Speaker 1: how we tell history. I mean, have you felt that
Speaker 1: shift even since you joined in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 6: Yes, for sure I felt it, and I think, you know,
Speaker 6: moving forward over the evolution of the script and ultimately
Speaker 6: what goes on the text panels in the new museum,
Speaker 6: there will be continued debate over that. As I mentioned,
Speaker 6: you know, there is a document that was created by
Speaker 6: what was called the Alamo Citizen's Advisory Committee, which was
Speaker 6: people appointed by city council members in San Antonio to
Speaker 6: create this document called the Vision and Guiding Principles, and
Speaker 6: it was a very high level document, but basically to
Speaker 6: maintain a commitment to telling all the stories of the Alamo,
Speaker 6: not shying away from those topics that can be uncomfortable,
Speaker 6: like what was the role of slavery in the Texas Revolution?
Speaker 6: You know, how will they tackle that? I don't know
Speaker 6: the answer to that, obviously, but I strongly feel there
Speaker 6: will be continued debate over it. You know, I was
Speaker 6: having a conversation on the way up here. You know,
Speaker 6: like I said, I've just been floored by the number
Speaker 6: of people who have reached out and this was a
Speaker 6: person who's a major donor to many things in San
Speaker 6: Antonio and beyond, and they're very involved.
Speaker 5: In higher education.
Speaker 6: And you know, he was sort of saying like, it'll
Speaker 6: be interesting to see how all this happens, because while
Speaker 6: you know, you have politicians now wanting to sort of
Speaker 6: say what can and should be talked about on our
Speaker 6: college campuses, private donors don't necessarily feel that way. Now,
Speaker 6: whether they have enough a big enough voice with the
Speaker 6: dollars they contribute to actually make a difference, I don't know.
Speaker 6: I also, I think people are scared. You know, I'm
Speaker 6: older obviously than the two of you, but I didn't
Speaker 6: live through the McCarthy era in this country.
Speaker 5: This felt like a little bit of a witch hunt
Speaker 5: to me. That's scary.
Speaker 6: You know, this is the United States of America. We're
Speaker 6: not supposed to do things like that. We read about
Speaker 6: things like that that happened in you know, in other places,
Speaker 6: but that's not supposed to happen here.
Speaker 3: And were you ever scared during your tenure? Did you
Speaker 3: ever think like, I'm kind of overseeing this massive project.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like a mind field politically speaking, because
Speaker 3: a lot of people have strong feelings about it, Like
Speaker 3: did you did ever occur to you like I could
Speaker 3: be targeted one day?
Speaker 7: Well, clearly I wrote it in my desperation, not really,
Speaker 7: because I always felt like I had the strong support
Speaker 7: of the board, so I really didn't see myself as
Speaker 7: that vulnerable.
Speaker 5: But obviously I was wrong.
Speaker 1: You talk about I mean the fear of you know, politicization,
Speaker 1: fear that people feel like they could lose their job
Speaker 1: over things like this. There's obviously some degree of fear
Speaker 1: on the other side right that the like, what do
Speaker 1: you think, what is your sense of why some of
Speaker 1: our elected officials are so fearful of other parts of
Speaker 1: this story being told or the battle not being centered, Like,
Speaker 1: what is your understanding of what the concern is there?
Speaker 6: I think that's a very good question, because I in
Speaker 6: my job, I saw the extremes on both sides, and
Speaker 6: you know, I will say so so presentism is a
Speaker 6: very dangerous thing in my view. This is just Kate's opinion,
Speaker 6: but that means placing values of people living here in
Speaker 6: America in twenty twenty five on men who lived a
Speaker 6: couple hundred years ago. They were men of their time,
Speaker 6: they were flawed, We're all flawed, but doesn't diminish the
Speaker 6: contributions that they made. And I feel very strongly about that.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think, you know, we can embrace Thomas Jefferson,
Speaker 6: for example, on all of his complexity. The same with
Speaker 6: George Washington, you know, he We don't have to take
Speaker 6: away one person's history in order to bring forward the
Speaker 6: stories of people that are lesser known. So one big
Speaker 6: flash point that I think you know speaks to that
Speaker 6: is around the role of slavery in the Texas Revolution.
Speaker 6: I think it was a factor in Texas in eighteen
Speaker 6: thirty six. The truth is is slavery was a pretty small,
Speaker 6: especially chattel slavery a pretty small institution in Texas at
Speaker 6: the time of the revolution. It grew exponentially after the revolution.
Speaker 6: Were all one hundred and eighty nine men inside the
Speaker 6: Alamo fighting for exactly the same thing. I don't know
Speaker 6: how you could possibly say that, because you don't know
Speaker 6: what was in their hearts and minds. And there were
Speaker 6: known abolitionists inside the Alamo as well as William B.
Speaker 6: Travis who brought a slave with him, so it's it
Speaker 6: was more complicated. What I find troubling is that there
Speaker 6: seems to be no room for nuance in history.
Speaker 5: It's either this or that, right, you're good or you're bad.
Speaker 6: And that's problematic because even at that time in Texas
Speaker 6: and Mexico, views about slavery were changing dramatically about you know,
Speaker 6: how these men ended up here and how they were
Speaker 6: going to make a viable economy in this in this
Speaker 6: state that both Spain and men Mexico had been unsuccessful
Speaker 6: in settling prior to the arrival of the Texans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's I think the lack of nuance.
Speaker 1: And I think you could argue that is happening on
Speaker 1: both sides, Like that's not right.
Speaker 2: My Greetical Party does not own lack of nuances. Yeah,
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 1: But it is sort of at the root of a
Speaker 1: lot of this, it seems like, and and.
Speaker 6: I agree with you one hundred percent that history is
Speaker 6: you know, Winston Churchill said it.
Speaker 5: History is messy.
Speaker 6: It's complicated, but he also said you have to know
Speaker 6: it in order to lead, in order to ensure a
Speaker 6: brighter future for any country.
Speaker 5: But it is messy, right.
Speaker 6: But I think what people are afraid of is that
Speaker 6: you're somehow going to suggest that the men who who
Speaker 6: who laid it all on the line, they lost their
Speaker 6: lives for what they believed in. They're going to somehow
Speaker 6: suggest that they didn't have courage or they weren't brave
Speaker 6: in that moment. I don't think you have to do
Speaker 6: that to also talk about, you know, what was happening
Speaker 6: around views on slavery at that time. You see what
Speaker 6: I'm saying, you can still be brave in eighteen thirty
Speaker 6: six in Texas and a proud Alamo defender and also
Speaker 6: think that in order to develop Texas, cotton has got
Speaker 6: to be a part of it.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you're like you're saying like people
Speaker 1: who come to the Almo can sit with that. You
Speaker 1: sort of believe that people who come here can sit
Speaker 1: with that reality that these people did these you know,
Speaker 1: very noble thing and also had a complicated backstory for
Speaker 1: the time or not even for the time.
Speaker 6: I think people can. I think people can. And you
Speaker 6: know that's the role of museums. Museums are considered a
Speaker 6: very credible institution in this country more than elected officials
Speaker 6: or politicians. They are trusted more than the government. So
Speaker 6: you have huge responsibility. But your responsibility is not to
Speaker 6: judge or to tell the visitor what to think. Your
Speaker 6: responsibility is to present the information in a very factual
Speaker 6: and compelling way and let the visitor make their own decisions,
Speaker 6: because every visitor brings to the Alamo their own set
Speaker 6: of values, their own past experiences, their own personal history,
Speaker 6: and all that is going to play into how they
Speaker 6: experience it. What we wanted, what I wanted was for
Speaker 6: everybody to be able to see themselves in the story
Speaker 6: of the Alamo, and I think a lot of museums
Speaker 6: try to accomplish that.
Speaker 4: Do you think anything accomplishing your ten year got closer
Speaker 4: to that.
Speaker 6: I'm very proud of the work that we did, especially
Speaker 6: around our education.
Speaker 5: Programming Blundee Center, the new.
Speaker 6: Education Center, which by the way, wasn't even paid for
Speaker 6: by the state. That was all private dollars that were raised.
Speaker 6: And yes, the state is the largest and most generous donor.
Speaker 6: None of this would be happening without that, without the
Speaker 6: Lieutenant governor, without the legislature.
Speaker 5: But my team and I did raise ninety million.
Speaker 6: Dollars privately to support the project as well, and the
Speaker 6: ED Center is one hundred percent funded privately, and I
Speaker 6: you know, hope that it remains a place where school children,
Speaker 6: you know, have a place to call their own if
Speaker 6: the Alamo teachers can participate in robust programming. Social studies
Speaker 6: is such an important subject, but it's often overlooked because
Speaker 6: it's not tested in the early grades in our schools.
Speaker 6: But it's the subject where you're supposed to learn how
Speaker 6: to participate in a democracy.
Speaker 2: So what comes next for you? What's sort of the
Speaker 2: next chapter?
Speaker 5: Great question?
Speaker 6: Like I said, I think I've just you know, I
Speaker 6: sort of feel like I got you know, punched in
Speaker 6: the stomach. Took me a little while to get my
Speaker 6: breath back. I'm starting this week to kind of turn
Speaker 6: that corner and think about what's next. Obviously, you know,
Speaker 6: I hope to continue my passion for serving the community,
Speaker 6: for making a difference, for leaving you know, the world
Speaker 6: a better place than it was when I when I
Speaker 6: when I got there. I like to build things. The
Speaker 6: complexity of this project did not scare me, and so
Speaker 6: who knows, hopefully, hopefully there's God has a path for
Speaker 6: me out there.
Speaker 3: Might you build a lawsuit related to your.
Speaker 5: I don't know about that. I don't know about that.
Speaker 6: I would I would like to look to the future
Speaker 6: rather than dwelling on the past or what happened to
Speaker 6: me other than you know, I think that people would
Speaker 6: be happier if I didn't talk about all of this.
Speaker 6: But I think it's important that we do talk about
Speaker 6: it because if we don't, I think there's great risk
Speaker 6: there and.
Speaker 4: Kind of like to peel back to current. Maybe we
Speaker 4: could end on this.
Speaker 3: You know, it was interesting, but when he texted me,
Speaker 3: we had been communicating trying to set this up, and
Speaker 3: the first interview fell apart, but then the second time.
Speaker 4: Both times he texted me, I'm ready to speak out.
Speaker 3: What On a final note, what does Kate Rogers want
Speaker 3: to say?
Speaker 6: What do I want to say? I want to say.
Speaker 6: You know that I thoroughly enjoyed my time at the ALMO.
Speaker 5: I learned a lot. I'm deep in my own knowledge
Speaker 5: of Texas history. I got to work.
Speaker 6: Alongside a great team accomplishing great things together.
Speaker 5: That's kind of a unique thing.
Speaker 6: You don't always get that in your professional life, where
Speaker 6: you just really have this team that jives and works
Speaker 6: well together and you're taking on this big project. So
Speaker 6: that was very rewarding to me. Secondly, I you know,
Speaker 6: I do think that we all should not.
Speaker 5: Look the other way. That this is the US.
Speaker 6: And this is not China or Russia or any place else,
Speaker 6: and we're supposed to be able to say what we think,
Speaker 6: We're supposed to be able to disagree.
Speaker 5: With one another.
Speaker 6: And I think it's important that we all pay attention
Speaker 6: to that, because I think, you know, some big shifts
Speaker 6: in world history have happened when people chose to stay
Speaker 6: silent or to look the other way.
Speaker 1: Kate Rogers, formerly of the Alamo Trust, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us. Thank you, Alejandro, thank you as well.
Speaker 1: That is it for this week's episode of the trib Cast.
Speaker 1: You can get all episodes wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 1: or on YouTube, except as a reminder next week's episode,
Speaker 1: because we'll be later this week at trib Fest. Make
Speaker 1: sure you can still get tickets if you're interested. Open
Speaker 1: Congress on Saturday is open to the public and free.
Speaker 1: Our producers are Rob and Chris, and we will see
Speaker 1: you next week.