WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:19.239 Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The Texas 2 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:24.079 Tribune Tribecast for Tuesday, November eleventh. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff, law 3 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.440 and politics reporter at the Texas Tribune, joined this week 4 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:31.079 by special guest hosts politics reporter Alejandro Serrano. 5 00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:33.200 Thank you for having me absolutely. 6 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:36.600 Matthew will be back with us next week and just 7 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:39.200 for a bit of housekeeping, next week's episode will not 8 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:41.520 be on YouTube because it will be coming at you 9 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.200 from the Texas Tribune Tribe Fest. 10 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:46.520 Where we will be recording audio. 11 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:48.960 You can get it where you get your podcast audio usually, 12 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:51.039 but we will not be on YouTube. We will come 13 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.920 back to YouTube the week after and that is a 14 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:57.759 panel with a tri cast conversation with former House Speaker 15 00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.679 Dade Feelin. So if you don't want to miss that 16 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:03.439 converse and many other important conversations, make sure you join 17 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:05.599 us at Tripfest later this week. 18 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:08.319 But that's not what we're here to talk about. It's 19 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:10.120 all Hudro. 20 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:12.120 A few weeks ago, you and our colleague kay La 21 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:17.159 Guo reported on a very Texas political episode, a this 22 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:21.959 could only happen in Texas sort of situation relating to 23 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.560 the governance of the Alamo Historic Site. 24 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:27.400 Yeah, a lot of people have feelings about the ELBM 25 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:29.120 and a lot of people care about the Alamo, and 26 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.439 we saw this growing outrage start with sort of a 27 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:37.480 social media post escalate sort of perpetually, very exponentially quickly, 28 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:40.200 and then the Lieutenant Governor called to the firing of 29 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.760 the president who oversees the board of the manch just 30 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.280 the Alamo, and today that former leader is here with 31 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:46.680 us today. 32 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:48.719 Kay Rogers, thank you for joining. 33 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:49.519 Us, Thank you for having me. 34 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:50.840 Welcome to the trip cast. 35 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.840 Before we get into all the bruhaha, which we're going 36 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:57.000 to sort of unpack for people who either you know, 37 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.680 didn't didn't follow that or sort of at the details 38 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:02.680 of it, but just start off, like, what is the 39 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:03.480 Alamo Trust? 40 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:04.519 What was your role there? 41 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.960 Certainly so, the Alamo Trust is a nonprofit organization that 42 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.919 is contracted by the State of Texas via the Texas 43 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:16.400 General Land Office to oversee the daily operations of the Alamo, 44 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.520 but also to implement and realize the five hundred and 45 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:24.319 fifty million dollar Alamo Plan, which is the redevelopment effort 46 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:27.360 that is currently underway on the grounds. 47 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:30.680 How long did you work there, because we were recently president, 48 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:33.479 but you've been overseeing this for several years now. 49 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:33.879 Yeah. 50 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:36.639 So I was brought on in the spring of twenty 51 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:39.240 twenty one, so about four and a half years I 52 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:39.719 was there. 53 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:41.039 And what's your background? 54 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:48.080 Interestingly, I'm not a historian by training. I'm in, you know, passionate. 55 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:55.000 My personal passion is around education because I am the daughter, granddaughter, 56 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.599 and sister of Texas public school educator. So education has 57 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.199 kind of been a thing for me. So I spent 58 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.080 most of my career at AGB actually at the company 59 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.319 for eighteen years. My last post was vice president of 60 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.840 Communications and Culture at AGIB. Then I left the company 61 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:12.919 and I went to go work for Charles but for 62 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.960 several years helping him with some of his activities, including 63 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:20.439 the Holsworth Center that support public school leaders and public 64 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:23.759 school teachers. And then got called by a recruiter sort 65 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:26.800 of out of the blue about this position at the Alamo. 66 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:30.039 Didn't know to your question earlier, that the Trust was 67 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:31.759 even an entity at that time. 68 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:32.319 Wow. 69 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.000 I mean, CHIB the fourth branch of the Texas government 70 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:35.759 as we consider it. 71 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.000 Especially when it comes to disaster relief, right, nobody does 72 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:39.639 it better than. 73 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:40.800 HIB, that's for sure. 74 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:42.000 What drew you to the job. 75 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.080 A few things, right, I really was attracted by the board, 76 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:48.360 just a great group of people. 77 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:51.919 My interview with them was really. 78 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.479 Wonderful, and then I went down to the grounds to visit, 79 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.360 you know. And for many years it's been talk of 80 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:03.240 doing something with the Alamo in San Antonio. You know, 81 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.840 Sometimes visitors would come and they would say something like 82 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:08.000 is that it? 83 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:10.400 Or I thought it would be much bigger, you know. 84 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.120 So there's often been this sentiment, not by all, but 85 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:17.720 by some that the visit itself was somewhat underwhelming. And 86 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.279 so there's been multiple versions of this thing we call 87 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.000 the Alamo Plan that have been advanced over the years. 88 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:26.319 This one that is currently being implemented is the only 89 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:30.360 one that has successfully garnered strong support from the city 90 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:34.439 of San Antonio, Bear County, and the State of Texas. 91 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.040 In the state of Texas obviously the biggest contributor to 92 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:37.639 the project. 93 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.480 What when you took that job, did you sort of 94 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:42.240 understand the. 95 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:45.879 Fights that were going on around the Alamo, and like, 96 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:48.120 if you had to characterize it, like what is the 97 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.480 conflict we are still having over the Alamo? 98 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:54.319 So I don't think there's any way to actually know 99 00:04:55.519 --> 00:05:00.040 the complexity of the work unless you're working there. I 100 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.480 knew what I read in the paper because right before 101 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:04.120 I came on board, sort of at the end of 102 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.560 twenty twenty, there was a big brew haha, because the 103 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:13.439 prior plan. Ironically, today, on this very day, they're reopening 104 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.439 the Cenotaph, which is the monument to the Alamo Defenders. 105 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:19.800 And many years ago or so before I came on, 106 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:22.199 there was a plan that called for moving the cenotaph 107 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.920 from the battlefield storted down the street in front of 108 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:28.399 the Mangro Hotel, and very controversial. It was voted down 109 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:32.120 by the Texas Historic Commission, and pretty much there was 110 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:34.439 a complete reset of the project called for by the 111 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:37.279 Mayor of San Antonio at the time. So there were 112 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.000 new players put in board at the put in position, 113 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.759 at the board level, at the staff level, you know, 114 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:48.319 enter Kate Rodgers, and I honestly did not fully understand. 115 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:51.199 I don't think there's any way you could. 116 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:54.360 I mean, this has been sort of bubbling up for 117 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.600 so long in various ways. 118 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.319 I mean, what is the issue here, right? 119 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.480 It's about how we teach the history of the Alamo, 120 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.399 which is so central to Texas's history but has gotten. 121 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:08.920 Like, yeah, like, what is the conflict here? 122 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:13.480 I think there's multiple sources of conflict, right, So one 123 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:14.120 of those. 124 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.879 Is the fact that the property itself is. 125 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:18.879 Co owned by the city of San Antonio in the 126 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:20.920 state of Texas. So why do I bring up this 127 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:23.839 idea of consensus between the county, the city, et cetera. 128 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.319 So the first step in getting any of this done 129 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.639 was a lease agreement that needed to be negotiated between 130 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.279 the city and the state because the state owns, you know, 131 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:36.839 the Alamo Church and the Long Barrack, the two most 132 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:40.800 important artifacts, and the grounds behind it, but everything sort 133 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.319 of to the west of that Alamo Plaza included, is 134 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.720 actually owned by the city of San Antonio. So in 135 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:49.600 order to get this plan moving forward, the two had 136 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:54.160 to agree. And politically that's not always the case, right. 137 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:57.879 You have a very conservative leadership at the state level, 138 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.680 very blue leadership at the city level, and so you know, 139 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.800 it took a lot of brokering to get everybody to 140 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:07.519 come to the table and agree that this was the 141 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:10.639 right path forward. So I think that's one thing. The 142 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:14.480 other thing that you mentioned, Alejandro, is it's not that 143 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.839 we don't love the Alamo. It's that we love the 144 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:22.120 Alamo too much. So there's so many opinions about what 145 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.839 should be done, what shouldn't be done, And yes, that 146 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:26.920 relates to the story that will be told, but it 147 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:30.959 also relates to the physical space itself. You know, some 148 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:33.680 people would say, is this even needed? Why just leave 149 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:37.519 it alone? Why even undertake this massive project. You know, 150 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:41.360 other side of the spectrum would say, you know, take 151 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:43.839 it all the way back, you know, bring back the 152 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.360 original battlefield and its original footprint, which would have been 153 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:51.360 two feet lower than where it is now. So there's 154 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:55.279 just very strong views on all sides about all things, 155 00:07:55.959 --> 00:08:00.399 including the cenotaph. Obviously, then you have the narrative and 156 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:02.879 you know, let's face it, we're living in an interesting 157 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.439 time right now, not just in Texas but across the 158 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:10.480 country and how we interpret our history and the idea 159 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:14.759 and again the partnership between the city and the state 160 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:19.399 actually calls for and the least agreement itself, it calls 161 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:20.240 for telling. 162 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:21.959 Them full history of the site. 163 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.879 Most people, the Alumo gets somewhere around one point six 164 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:29.079 million visitors a year. Most people are coming because they 165 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:32.200 know about the Battle of eighteen thirty six it's you know, 166 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:35.480 no one would argue that's the most important event that 167 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.519 happened on the site, and it's the reason that most 168 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:40.840 people come. They want to learn more about it. They've 169 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:42.919 you know, either watched a movie or read a book. 170 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.080 You know, they know about Davy Crockett, and they want 171 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.279 to kind of unpack what happened there. But a lot 172 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:53.159 of people don't know that it was actually a Spanish mission. 173 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:56.120 It was the first of the five missions in San Antonio, 174 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.399 and so there's just this great opportunity to teach people 175 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:03.039 about out the full history, what happened before the battle 176 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:06.600 and what happened after, while still keeping the battle as 177 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:08.279 the central focal point. 178 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:09.960 I think, thank you for that reflection. 179 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:12.159 We certainly want to get to like all you accomplished 180 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:14.240 and you know, and reading about you, it's interesting how 181 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:17.080 you know, you often have press releases in conferences where 182 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:18.840 you were celebrated for some of the things that you 183 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:20.639 did in the last couple of years. But you know, 184 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:22.600 to get to the last company you're talking about the narrative. 185 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.519 There was one thing in particular that sparked a whole 186 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:29.120 new wave of backlashing narrative, and it's this post on 187 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:32.799 Indigenous People's Day. Could you tell us more about that. 188 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.039 It wasn't the first time the Alamo posted this post 189 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.399 on social media, but this year it exploded. 190 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:38.559 It did so. 191 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.080 Yes, to your point, for the last couple of years, 192 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.200 there's been a post that reflects, you know, sort of 193 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:49.080 all the things that are represented on that specific day, 194 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:54.000 one representing indigenous peoples. Why would the Alamo post about 195 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:59.720 indigenous peoples? The Alamo itself, the structure was actually built 196 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:03.799 by indigenous hands, so you know, it was a mission. 197 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:06.879 There were people being converted in the mission, and the 198 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:09.519 people who were actually doing the labor were. 199 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:10.600 Of Indigenous descent. 200 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.919 At the same time, we would normally post a Happy 201 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:19.720 Columbus Day again you know, yes, Italian explorer but also 202 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:24.279 funded by the Spanish crown to come to to explore 203 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.840 what we know today as America, right, even though we 204 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.879 never technically got here. But that's beside the point. But 205 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:36.320 given the rich history and the relationship between Spain and 206 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:41.519 the Alamo, and also the local American Indian tribes or 207 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.720 Native American or whatever you want to call them, it 208 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:46.840 sort of made sense that we would honor both. 209 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:51.639 Did you expect any backlash to making an Indigenous People's 210 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:52.159 Day post. 211 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.320 No, what were you doing? Can you take us to 212 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:55.720 that moment? 213 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.159 Well, I wasn't even Let's be clear, I wasn't even 214 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:02.720 in San Antonio when that. So, you know, like most organizations, 215 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:08.360 there's a calendar by which things are posted. No, I 216 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.519 was not the person who was actually putting the post up. 217 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:16.039 And I think that the communications director was just following 218 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:21.720 what he'd done for the past several years, and none 219 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:25.480 of us were, you know, shame on us. We're monitoring 220 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:29.200 at the federal level changes within the administration and calls 221 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:32.679 for not the elimination of Indigenous people, say, but to 222 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:37.799 really celebrate Columbus's contributions to the country. And so I 223 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:39.720 think he thought he was doing the right thing by 224 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.759 posting both. I was actually so I went to undergraduate 225 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:47.600 at TCU. I was at TCU to give a lecture 226 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.279 on the Alamo in their public History department, and so, 227 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.519 you know, I got this phone call. You know, we 228 00:11:54.879 --> 00:12:00.240 took the post down, tried to do damage control, obviously unsuccessfully, and. 229 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:04.120 We should say Land Commissioner Don Buckingham, who has jurisdiction 230 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:08.440 over the Alamo, it sort of tweeted woke has no 231 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.720 place at the Alamo and announced an investigation into this 232 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:15.080 tweet sort of and then started, you know, blasting. 233 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.320 Off an email to her supporters like this really became. 234 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.919 A certainly at least the way it was being portrayed 235 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.799 in the stories like sort of Don Buckingham versus you know, 236 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:30.919 the woke Alamo. Just from that individual experience, I mean, 237 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:32.919 what do you see as like the full picture there, 238 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.759 like what it was being missed in that retelling of 239 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:36.960 how that went down. 240 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:40.440 I don't know that there's anything being missed. 241 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:43.559 I mean I think it's pretty self explanatory because it 242 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:44.879 was also public, right. 243 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.519 You know, these are posts on social. 244 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:52.679 Media and tweets about you know, what one side believes 245 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:57.120 and what you know versus the other. And in my view, 246 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:59.639 woke is a you know, it's a term. It's a 247 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:03.720 police political term that is, you know, thrown around a 248 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.240 lot in today's world to describe any number of activities. 249 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.799 You know, I think everything we did at the Almo, 250 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:17.360 or I did at the Almo. You know, there was 251 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:21.240 no movement, if you will, to not honor the men 252 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.159 who died, who fought and died there. That was definitely 253 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.679 not something that was underway in the new Visitor Center museum. 254 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:32.320 The largest gallery is dedicated to the battle. The interesting 255 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:35.720 thing about it is that, you know, this narrative that's 256 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.039 been being developed to inform all the exhibits and so forth, 257 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:42.279 that's been going on for you know, a few years. 258 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.440 So it was interesting that this all the sudden became 259 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.320 this flash point. You know, that that all of a sudden, 260 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:51.159 it's it's. 261 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:53.559 Woke, right, And was it just that? Or do you 262 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:55.559 think there was more to it? Like I think you 263 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:58.240 said another interview, that's a million dollar question whether this 264 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:00.720 post was really it? But was What was your relationship 265 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.600 like with you know, state leaders and your colleagues, Like 266 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:04.919 what were their tensions? 267 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:07.679 Like what was the lead up to this? Yeah? 268 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:10.639 I mean I think at times there were tensions, not 269 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.960 so much with the Lieutenant Governor's office, but the General 270 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.039 Land Office in particular is exceptionally involved in the project 271 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:23.159 and you know, wants to have a lot of involvement 272 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.679 in many of the daily decisions that are made there. 273 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.720 How did that play out, like how did that work 274 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:31.440 with you? Was there conflict over that? 275 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:36.399 I wouldn't say there was ever outright conflict. There were rumors, 276 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.759 you know, but that's hearsay, I don't know that rumors 277 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:44.919 that the commissioner was not a fan of mine. You know, 278 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:49.120 we never had an exchange, a conflict, an altercation, anything 279 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:53.480 of that nature. But there were you know, buzz out 280 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:56.080 there that you know, she's not a fan of yours. 281 00:14:57.080 --> 00:14:59.120 So this bubbles over a couple of days, and then 282 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:02.440 the next flashpoint is the Lieutenant Governor's letter that I 283 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.879 mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, and when he 284 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:10.080 quoted your dissertation, he quoted like a couple sentences from 285 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:11.200 I think it's very long. 286 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:16.679 I speed read it, very long and very boring, Aleandre. 287 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:20.279 But I want you to tell us about it and 288 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:24.639 why you decided to go down that path of inquiry, because, 289 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:26.759 you know, reading it, in hindsight, it seems like some 290 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:29.200 of the things you you wrote about and believed in 291 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.120 you kind of accomplished, especially when it came to like 292 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:35.399 treating the historical site as a place where teachers and 293 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:38.799 students can really learn and kind of engage with their history. 294 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:39.080 Yeah. 295 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.240 I mean it might be woke on my part. I 296 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.840 don't I've never considered myself woke. Right, I'm a member 297 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:48.080 of the Daughters of the Republic of Texas. I'm a 298 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:51.440 descendant of the original Canary Island family, one of them 299 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.840 that settled San Antonio in seventeen thirty one. You know, 300 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.960 my dad was a West Point graduate who served five 301 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:03.080 tours in Vietnam. I've never considered myself woke, so it's 302 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:07.879 interesting to have that label placed upon me. Definitely Texan, Texan, 303 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.960 Texan through and through for sure, and so it was 304 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:14.639 a great honor to be at the Alamo, you know. 305 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:19.080 So I'm not one hundred percent sure how you know 306 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:21.639 that characterization got got made? 307 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.519 How did you come to write to. 308 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.519 For anybody who's ever written a dissertation, you know that 309 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:32.879 the selection of a topic can be a very arduous 310 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.960 process because it has to be something so specific that 311 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:39.919 you can that one person could actually tackle the research 312 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.720 and write about it. So you start out with something 313 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:45.080 really grand that you think is going to change the world, 314 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:47.399 and you end up with this very very you know, 315 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.240 minor topic that you spend several years of your life 316 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.720 writing and learning about. So mine was on the role 317 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:59.159 of US historic sites and museums in supporting social studies 318 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.000 instruction and Kate twelve classrooms. So you have the intersection 319 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.839 of my passion around education. I was getting a doctorate 320 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.599 degree in global education at the University of Southern California, 321 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.519 and so, you know, my research sites were Monticello, Mount Vernon, Gettysburg, 322 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:17.880 and the National World War Two Museum in New Orleans. 323 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:21.400 And I really thoroughly enjoyed the topic. And I was 324 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.240 going to say earlier to your question at Alijandro. So 325 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:27.039 one of the things that came out of that was 326 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:31.319 I attended these multi day professional development experiences for teachers 327 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.759 that happen at these really well known sites, and they're 328 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:38.559 all expenses paid. You know, teachers can come, they can 329 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.920 really stand in the place where history happened, they can 330 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.920 interact with living historians who are Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. 331 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:50.200 Just a really special, meaningful experience. And so we started 332 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.480 doing those at the Alamo. But one of them is 333 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.279 actually to Mexico City for five days of professional development 334 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:03.640 a partnership with UNAM. You really help teachers understand the 335 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.319 connectedness between Mexican history and Texas history. For some that 336 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:11.559 might be considered woke. For the teachers, it was a 337 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:13.160 really rewarding experience. 338 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:15.640 And it's also a Texas component right where there they 339 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.559 do like a also development in some of the battlefields here. 340 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.559 Yeah, so there's a Texas Revolution road trip where you know, 341 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.200 again to really understand the revolution in its entirety. So 342 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.200 it starts at the Alamo and then moves on to Goliad, 343 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.359 Washington on the brass because of course the Constitution was 344 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:34.400 being signed at the same time, you know, and nobody 345 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.000 knew what was happening at the Alamo versus the the 346 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:40.839 attendees at Washington on the Brasas, then on to San 347 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.920 Felipe d Austin, and then finally San Jacinto on San 348 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.119 Jacinto Day. So the teachers kind of get to walk 349 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.680 in the footsteps of those who fought all of those 350 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.519 battles as part of the revolution. 351 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:54.279 And part of it. 352 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:56.319 I don't know if you objection to me reading, but 353 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:58.000 you know, kind of it is like you were really 354 00:18:58.039 --> 00:18:59.960 candid in some of these views, and this was ears 355 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:01.480 like you know, at one. 356 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:03.200 Apparently too candid. 357 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:06.799 Just for clarity, this dissertation was written while you were 358 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:11.440 working at the partially partially at the Element partially, So. 359 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.359 I mean you have to remember that a dissertation is 360 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:21.880 written over several years, and so part of it was 361 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:26.119 written I started the program before I got to the Alamo, 362 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:28.720 and then part of it, yes, would have been written afterward. 363 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.799 And as you're evolving and you're writing the various chapters, 364 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:34.759 there's a lot of cutting and pasting of things you 365 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.640 wrote before that's being well, this belongs in this section 366 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:40.559 or that section. And when this all came up, honestly, 367 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:44.039 I had to go find my dissertation and read what 368 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:46.880 I had written, because I honestly couldn't remember, and I 369 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:50.160 was thinking, what did I write that was so offensive? 370 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.160 Because again, if you've ever written a dissertation, you know 371 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.920 that no one ever reads them other than your committee. 372 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.640 So your audience for your dissertation is largely your committee, right, 373 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.079 your chair and the committee members. And for this in particular, 374 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:09.160 I was my committee were faculty members at the University 375 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:13.039 of Southern California who really have no visibility into politics 376 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:14.119 in Texas. 377 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.759 So I was trying to explain the environment to them. 378 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:22.079 Was the point of the section that was pulled out, 379 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:22.920 and some. 380 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.200 Of your views as well. Again, I just wanted to 381 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:27.759 read this for listeners. We said. 382 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:29.640 Philosophically, I do not believe it is the role of 383 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.480 politicians to determine what professional educators can or should teach 384 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.920 in the classroom. Instead, teachers should be afforded the autonomy 385 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.160 to make those decisions based on their own expertise as 386 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.599 well as their needs the needs of their students. 387 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:49.680 It feels pretty straightforward, right, You're essentially saying politicians should 388 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:51.960 not play a role in dictating sort. 389 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.240 Of how this history is taught. 390 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:53.839 Is that. 391 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:55.759 Yes? 392 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:59.359 Did you consider that to be a controversial statement at 393 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:00.759 the time, obviously not. 394 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:04.319 Yeah, it's a different time, you know, it was a 395 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:08.000 few years ago. Things have changed. I don't think that 396 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:10.440 some of the things that are happening today were happening then. 397 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.200 I'm not the only person who's you know, been singled 398 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:17.559 out in this fashion. It's happening in our universities, you know, 399 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.160 the president of A and M just recently, you know, 400 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:25.839 I I think it's it's it is interesting that, you know, 401 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:31.079