1 00:00:16,519 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The Texas 2 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:24,079 Tribune Tribecast for Tuesday, November eleventh. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff, law 3 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,440 and politics reporter at the Texas Tribune, joined this week 4 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,079 by special guest hosts politics reporter Alejandro Serrano. 5 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me absolutely. 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: Matthew will be back with us next week and just 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,200 for a bit of housekeeping, next week's episode will not 8 00:00:39,439 --> 00:00:41,520 be on YouTube because it will be coming at you 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,200 from the Texas Tribune Tribe Fest. 10 00:00:45,119 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 2: Where we will be recording audio. 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: You can get it where you get your podcast audio usually, 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,039 but we will not be on YouTube. We will come 13 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:53,920 back to YouTube the week after and that is a 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,759 panel with a tri cast conversation with former House Speaker 15 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,679 Dade Feelin. So if you don't want to miss that 16 00:00:59,679 --> 00:01:03,439 converse and many other important conversations, make sure you join 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,599 us at Tripfest later this week. 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 2: But that's not what we're here to talk about. It's 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:10,120 all Hudro. 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, you and our colleague kay La 21 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:17,159 Guo reported on a very Texas political episode, a this 22 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:21,959 could only happen in Texas sort of situation relating to 23 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,560 the governance of the Alamo Historic Site. 24 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people have feelings about the ELBM 25 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:29,120 and a lot of people care about the Alamo, and 26 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:32,439 we saw this growing outrage start with sort of a 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:37,480 social media post escalate sort of perpetually, very exponentially quickly, 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,200 and then the Lieutenant Governor called to the firing of 29 00:01:40,239 --> 00:01:42,760 the president who oversees the board of the manch just 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,280 the Alamo, and today that former leader is here with 31 00:01:46,359 --> 00:01:46,680 us today. 32 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,719 Speaker 4: Kay Rogers, thank you for joining. 33 00:01:48,439 --> 00:01:49,519 Speaker 5: Us, Thank you for having me. 34 00:01:49,799 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: Welcome to the trip cast. 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: Before we get into all the bruhaha, which we're going 36 00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:57,000 to sort of unpack for people who either you know, 37 00:01:57,519 --> 00:02:00,680 didn't didn't follow that or sort of at the details 38 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,680 of it, but just start off, like, what is the 39 00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:03,480 Alamo Trust? 40 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:04,519 Speaker 2: What was your role there? 41 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 6: Certainly so, the Alamo Trust is a nonprofit organization that 42 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,919 is contracted by the State of Texas via the Texas 43 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,400 General Land Office to oversee the daily operations of the Alamo, 44 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:20,520 but also to implement and realize the five hundred and 45 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,319 fifty million dollar Alamo Plan, which is the redevelopment effort 46 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:27,360 that is currently underway on the grounds. 47 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: How long did you work there, because we were recently president, 48 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:33,479 but you've been overseeing this for several years now. 49 00:02:33,719 --> 00:02:33,879 Speaker 5: Yeah. 50 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 6: So I was brought on in the spring of twenty 51 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,240 twenty one, so about four and a half years I 52 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:39,719 was there. 53 00:02:40,039 --> 00:02:41,039 Speaker 2: And what's your background? 54 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 6: Interestingly, I'm not a historian by training. I'm in, you know, passionate. 55 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:55,000 My personal passion is around education because I am the daughter, granddaughter, 56 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,599 and sister of Texas public school educator. So education has 57 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,199 kind of been a thing for me. So I spent 58 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,080 most of my career at AGB actually at the company 59 00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:07,319 for eighteen years. My last post was vice president of 60 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:10,840 Communications and Culture at AGIB. Then I left the company 61 00:03:10,879 --> 00:03:12,919 and I went to go work for Charles but for 62 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,960 several years helping him with some of his activities, including 63 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,439 the Holsworth Center that support public school leaders and public 64 00:03:20,439 --> 00:03:23,759 school teachers. And then got called by a recruiter sort 65 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:26,800 of out of the blue about this position at the Alamo. 66 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,039 Didn't know to your question earlier, that the Trust was 67 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,759 even an entity at that time. 68 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:32,319 Speaker 4: Wow. 69 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: I mean, CHIB the fourth branch of the Texas government 70 00:03:35,039 --> 00:03:35,759 as we consider it. 71 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 6: Especially when it comes to disaster relief, right, nobody does 72 00:03:39,039 --> 00:03:39,639 it better than. 73 00:03:39,639 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 5: HIB, that's for sure. 74 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 4: What drew you to the job. 75 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 6: A few things, right, I really was attracted by the board, 76 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,360 just a great group of people. 77 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,919 Speaker 5: My interview with them was really. 78 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,479 Speaker 6: Wonderful, and then I went down to the grounds to visit, 79 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,360 you know. And for many years it's been talk of 80 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,240 doing something with the Alamo in San Antonio. You know, 81 00:04:03,759 --> 00:04:06,840 Sometimes visitors would come and they would say something like 82 00:04:07,479 --> 00:04:08,000 is that it? 83 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 5: Or I thought it would be much bigger, you know. 84 00:04:10,479 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 6: So there's often been this sentiment, not by all, but 85 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,720 by some that the visit itself was somewhat underwhelming. And 86 00:04:17,759 --> 00:04:20,279 so there's been multiple versions of this thing we call 87 00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:23,000 the Alamo Plan that have been advanced over the years. 88 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,319 This one that is currently being implemented is the only 89 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:30,360 one that has successfully garnered strong support from the city 90 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,439 of San Antonio, Bear County, and the State of Texas. 91 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,040 In the state of Texas obviously the biggest contributor to 92 00:04:37,079 --> 00:04:37,639 the project. 93 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: What when you took that job, did you sort of 94 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:42,240 understand the. 95 00:04:43,759 --> 00:04:45,879 Speaker 1: Fights that were going on around the Alamo, and like, 96 00:04:46,399 --> 00:04:48,120 if you had to characterize it, like what is the 97 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,480 conflict we are still having over the Alamo? 98 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:54,319 Speaker 6: So I don't think there's any way to actually know 99 00:04:55,519 --> 00:05:00,040 the complexity of the work unless you're working there. I 100 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:02,480 knew what I read in the paper because right before 101 00:05:02,519 --> 00:05:04,120 I came on board, sort of at the end of 102 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,560 twenty twenty, there was a big brew haha, because the 103 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:13,439 prior plan. Ironically, today, on this very day, they're reopening 104 00:05:13,519 --> 00:05:16,439 the Cenotaph, which is the monument to the Alamo Defenders. 105 00:05:16,879 --> 00:05:19,800 And many years ago or so before I came on, 106 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,199 there was a plan that called for moving the cenotaph 107 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,920 from the battlefield storted down the street in front of 108 00:05:24,959 --> 00:05:28,399 the Mangro Hotel, and very controversial. It was voted down 109 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:32,120 by the Texas Historic Commission, and pretty much there was 110 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,439 a complete reset of the project called for by the 111 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,279 Mayor of San Antonio at the time. So there were 112 00:05:37,439 --> 00:05:40,000 new players put in board at the put in position, 113 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:42,759 at the board level, at the staff level, you know, 114 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:48,319 enter Kate Rodgers, and I honestly did not fully understand. 115 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,199 Speaker 5: I don't think there's any way you could. 116 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: I mean, this has been sort of bubbling up for 117 00:05:54,399 --> 00:05:56,600 so long in various ways. 118 00:05:56,639 --> 00:05:59,319 Speaker 2: I mean, what is the issue here, right? 119 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: It's about how we teach the history of the Alamo, 120 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,399 which is so central to Texas's history but has gotten. 121 00:06:07,199 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, like, what is the conflict here? 122 00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 6: I think there's multiple sources of conflict, right, So one 123 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:14,120 of those. 124 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,879 Speaker 5: Is the fact that the property itself is. 125 00:06:16,879 --> 00:06:18,879 Speaker 6: Co owned by the city of San Antonio in the 126 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,920 state of Texas. So why do I bring up this 127 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,839 idea of consensus between the county, the city, et cetera. 128 00:06:24,399 --> 00:06:27,319 So the first step in getting any of this done 129 00:06:27,639 --> 00:06:30,639 was a lease agreement that needed to be negotiated between 130 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,279 the city and the state because the state owns, you know, 131 00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:36,839 the Alamo Church and the Long Barrack, the two most 132 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,800 important artifacts, and the grounds behind it, but everything sort 133 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,319 of to the west of that Alamo Plaza included, is 134 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:46,720 actually owned by the city of San Antonio. So in 135 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,600 order to get this plan moving forward, the two had 136 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,160 to agree. And politically that's not always the case, right. 137 00:06:54,199 --> 00:06:57,879 You have a very conservative leadership at the state level, 138 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,680 very blue leadership at the city level, and so you know, 139 00:07:01,759 --> 00:07:05,800 it took a lot of brokering to get everybody to 140 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,519 come to the table and agree that this was the 141 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,639 right path forward. So I think that's one thing. The 142 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:14,480 other thing that you mentioned, Alejandro, is it's not that 143 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,839 we don't love the Alamo. It's that we love the 144 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:22,120 Alamo too much. So there's so many opinions about what 145 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,839 should be done, what shouldn't be done, And yes, that 146 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:26,920 relates to the story that will be told, but it 147 00:07:26,959 --> 00:07:30,959 also relates to the physical space itself. You know, some 148 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,680 people would say, is this even needed? Why just leave 149 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,519 it alone? Why even undertake this massive project. You know, 150 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,360 other side of the spectrum would say, you know, take 151 00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:43,839 it all the way back, you know, bring back the 152 00:07:43,879 --> 00:07:47,360 original battlefield and its original footprint, which would have been 153 00:07:47,399 --> 00:07:51,360 two feet lower than where it is now. So there's 154 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,279 just very strong views on all sides about all things, 155 00:07:55,959 --> 00:08:00,399 including the cenotaph. Obviously, then you have the narrative and 156 00:08:00,759 --> 00:08:02,879 you know, let's face it, we're living in an interesting 157 00:08:02,959 --> 00:08:05,439 time right now, not just in Texas but across the 158 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:10,480 country and how we interpret our history and the idea 159 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:14,759 and again the partnership between the city and the state 160 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,399 actually calls for and the least agreement itself, it calls 161 00:08:19,439 --> 00:08:20,240 for telling. 162 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,959 Speaker 5: Them full history of the site. 163 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,879 Speaker 6: Most people, the Alumo gets somewhere around one point six 164 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,079 million visitors a year. Most people are coming because they 165 00:08:29,079 --> 00:08:32,200 know about the Battle of eighteen thirty six it's you know, 166 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,480 no one would argue that's the most important event that 167 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,519 happened on the site, and it's the reason that most 168 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,840 people come. They want to learn more about it. They've 169 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:42,919 you know, either watched a movie or read a book. 170 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,080 You know, they know about Davy Crockett, and they want 171 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,279 to kind of unpack what happened there. But a lot 172 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,159 of people don't know that it was actually a Spanish mission. 173 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,120 It was the first of the five missions in San Antonio, 174 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,399 and so there's just this great opportunity to teach people 175 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,039 about out the full history, what happened before the battle 176 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:06,600 and what happened after, while still keeping the battle as 177 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,279 the central focal point. 178 00:09:08,639 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 4: I think, thank you for that reflection. 179 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,159 Speaker 3: We certainly want to get to like all you accomplished 180 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,240 and you know, and reading about you, it's interesting how 181 00:09:14,639 --> 00:09:17,080 you know, you often have press releases in conferences where 182 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,840 you were celebrated for some of the things that you 183 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:20,639 did in the last couple of years. But you know, 184 00:09:20,759 --> 00:09:22,600 to get to the last company you're talking about the narrative. 185 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,519 There was one thing in particular that sparked a whole 186 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,120 new wave of backlashing narrative, and it's this post on 187 00:09:29,799 --> 00:09:32,799 Indigenous People's Day. Could you tell us more about that. 188 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,039 It wasn't the first time the Alamo posted this post 189 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,399 on social media, but this year it exploded. 190 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 5: It did so. 191 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 6: Yes, to your point, for the last couple of years, 192 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,200 there's been a post that reflects, you know, sort of 193 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:49,080 all the things that are represented on that specific day, 194 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,000 one representing indigenous peoples. Why would the Alamo post about 195 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:59,720 indigenous peoples? The Alamo itself, the structure was actually built 196 00:09:59,799 --> 00:10:03,799 by indigenous hands, so you know, it was a mission. 197 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,879 There were people being converted in the mission, and the 198 00:10:06,919 --> 00:10:09,519 people who were actually doing the labor were. 199 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 5: Of Indigenous descent. 200 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,919 Speaker 6: At the same time, we would normally post a Happy 201 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,720 Columbus Day again you know, yes, Italian explorer but also 202 00:10:19,919 --> 00:10:24,279 funded by the Spanish crown to come to to explore 203 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,840 what we know today as America, right, even though we 204 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:31,879 never technically got here. But that's beside the point. But 205 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,320 given the rich history and the relationship between Spain and 206 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,519 the Alamo, and also the local American Indian tribes or 207 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,720 Native American or whatever you want to call them, it 208 00:10:44,879 --> 00:10:46,840 sort of made sense that we would honor both. 209 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,639 Speaker 1: Did you expect any backlash to making an Indigenous People's 210 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:52,159 Day post. 211 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 4: No, what were you doing? Can you take us to 212 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:55,720 that moment? 213 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,159 Speaker 6: Well, I wasn't even Let's be clear, I wasn't even 214 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,720 in San Antonio when that. So, you know, like most organizations, 215 00:11:02,759 --> 00:11:08,360 there's a calendar by which things are posted. No, I 216 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,519 was not the person who was actually putting the post up. 217 00:11:12,639 --> 00:11:16,039 And I think that the communications director was just following 218 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:21,720 what he'd done for the past several years, and none 219 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,480 of us were, you know, shame on us. We're monitoring 220 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,200 at the federal level changes within the administration and calls 221 00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:32,679 for not the elimination of Indigenous people, say, but to 222 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,799 really celebrate Columbus's contributions to the country. And so I 223 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:39,720 think he thought he was doing the right thing by 224 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,759 posting both. I was actually so I went to undergraduate 225 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:47,600 at TCU. I was at TCU to give a lecture 226 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:51,279 on the Alamo in their public History department, and so, 227 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,519 you know, I got this phone call. You know, we 228 00:11:54,879 --> 00:12:00,240 took the post down, tried to do damage control, obviously unsuccessfully, and. 229 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: We should say Land Commissioner Don Buckingham, who has jurisdiction 230 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,440 over the Alamo, it sort of tweeted woke has no 231 00:12:08,519 --> 00:12:11,720 place at the Alamo and announced an investigation into this 232 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:15,080 tweet sort of and then started, you know, blasting. 233 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: Off an email to her supporters like this really became. 234 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,919 Speaker 1: A certainly at least the way it was being portrayed 235 00:12:21,919 --> 00:12:24,799 in the stories like sort of Don Buckingham versus you know, 236 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:30,919 the woke Alamo. Just from that individual experience, I mean, 237 00:12:31,399 --> 00:12:32,919 what do you see as like the full picture there, 238 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,759 like what it was being missed in that retelling of 239 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:36,960 how that went down. 240 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 5: I don't know that there's anything being missed. 241 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 6: I mean I think it's pretty self explanatory because it 242 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:44,879 was also public, right. 243 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,519 Speaker 5: You know, these are posts on social. 244 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 6: Media and tweets about you know, what one side believes 245 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:57,120 and what you know versus the other. And in my view, 246 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,639 woke is a you know, it's a term. It's a 247 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,720 police political term that is, you know, thrown around a 248 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,240 lot in today's world to describe any number of activities. 249 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,799 You know, I think everything we did at the Almo, 250 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,360 or I did at the Almo. You know, there was 251 00:13:17,399 --> 00:13:21,240 no movement, if you will, to not honor the men 252 00:13:21,279 --> 00:13:24,159 who died, who fought and died there. That was definitely 253 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,679 not something that was underway in the new Visitor Center museum. 254 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:32,320 The largest gallery is dedicated to the battle. The interesting 255 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,720 thing about it is that, you know, this narrative that's 256 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:39,039 been being developed to inform all the exhibits and so forth, 257 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,279 that's been going on for you know, a few years. 258 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:46,440 So it was interesting that this all the sudden became 259 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,320 this flash point. You know, that that all of a sudden, 260 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:51,159 it's it's. 261 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 3: Woke, right, And was it just that? Or do you 262 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,559 think there was more to it? Like I think you 263 00:13:55,759 --> 00:13:58,240 said another interview, that's a million dollar question whether this 264 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,720 post was really it? But was What was your relationship 265 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,600 like with you know, state leaders and your colleagues, Like 266 00:14:03,639 --> 00:14:04,919 what were their tensions? 267 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 4: Like what was the lead up to this? Yeah? 268 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,639 Speaker 6: I mean I think at times there were tensions, not 269 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,960 so much with the Lieutenant Governor's office, but the General 270 00:14:15,039 --> 00:14:18,039 Land Office in particular is exceptionally involved in the project 271 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:23,159 and you know, wants to have a lot of involvement 272 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,679 in many of the daily decisions that are made there. 273 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: How did that play out, like how did that work 274 00:14:29,759 --> 00:14:31,440 with you? Was there conflict over that? 275 00:14:32,159 --> 00:14:36,399 Speaker 6: I wouldn't say there was ever outright conflict. There were rumors, 276 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:40,759 you know, but that's hearsay, I don't know that rumors 277 00:14:40,759 --> 00:14:44,919 that the commissioner was not a fan of mine. You know, 278 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,120 we never had an exchange, a conflict, an altercation, anything 279 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,480 of that nature. But there were you know, buzz out 280 00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:56,080 there that you know, she's not a fan of yours. 281 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: So this bubbles over a couple of days, and then 282 00:14:59,159 --> 00:15:02,440 the next flashpoint is the Lieutenant Governor's letter that I 283 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,879 mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, and when he 284 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:10,080 quoted your dissertation, he quoted like a couple sentences from 285 00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:11,200 I think it's very long. 286 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,679 Speaker 5: I speed read it, very long and very boring, Aleandre. 287 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,279 Speaker 3: But I want you to tell us about it and 288 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,639 why you decided to go down that path of inquiry, because, 289 00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:26,759 you know, reading it, in hindsight, it seems like some 290 00:15:26,799 --> 00:15:29,200 of the things you you wrote about and believed in 291 00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:32,120 you kind of accomplished, especially when it came to like 292 00:15:32,159 --> 00:15:35,399 treating the historical site as a place where teachers and 293 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,799 students can really learn and kind of engage with their history. 294 00:15:38,919 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 295 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 6: I mean it might be woke on my part. I 296 00:15:42,279 --> 00:15:45,840 don't I've never considered myself woke. Right, I'm a member 297 00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:48,080 of the Daughters of the Republic of Texas. I'm a 298 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,440 descendant of the original Canary Island family, one of them 299 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,840 that settled San Antonio in seventeen thirty one. You know, 300 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,960 my dad was a West Point graduate who served five 301 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,080 tours in Vietnam. I've never considered myself woke, so it's 302 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:07,879 interesting to have that label placed upon me. Definitely Texan, Texan, 303 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,960 Texan through and through for sure, and so it was 304 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,639 a great honor to be at the Alamo, you know. 305 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:19,080 So I'm not one hundred percent sure how you know 306 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,639 that characterization got got made? 307 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:25,519 Speaker 2: How did you come to write to. 308 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,519 Speaker 6: For anybody who's ever written a dissertation, you know that 309 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,879 the selection of a topic can be a very arduous 310 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,960 process because it has to be something so specific that 311 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:39,919 you can that one person could actually tackle the research 312 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,720 and write about it. So you start out with something 313 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,080 really grand that you think is going to change the world, 314 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:47,399 and you end up with this very very you know, 315 00:16:47,679 --> 00:16:51,240 minor topic that you spend several years of your life 316 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,720 writing and learning about. So mine was on the role 317 00:16:54,759 --> 00:16:59,159 of US historic sites and museums in supporting social studies 318 00:16:59,159 --> 00:17:02,000 instruction and Kate twelve classrooms. So you have the intersection 319 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,839 of my passion around education. I was getting a doctorate 320 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,599 degree in global education at the University of Southern California, 321 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,519 and so, you know, my research sites were Monticello, Mount Vernon, Gettysburg, 322 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,880 and the National World War Two Museum in New Orleans. 323 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,400 And I really thoroughly enjoyed the topic. And I was 324 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,240 going to say earlier to your question at Alijandro. So 325 00:17:24,279 --> 00:17:27,039 one of the things that came out of that was 326 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,319 I attended these multi day professional development experiences for teachers 327 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,759 that happen at these really well known sites, and they're 328 00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:38,559 all expenses paid. You know, teachers can come, they can 329 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,920 really stand in the place where history happened, they can 330 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:45,920 interact with living historians who are Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. 331 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,200 Just a really special, meaningful experience. And so we started 332 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,480 doing those at the Alamo. But one of them is 333 00:17:53,519 --> 00:17:57,279 actually to Mexico City for five days of professional development 334 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:03,640 a partnership with UNAM. You really help teachers understand the 335 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,319 connectedness between Mexican history and Texas history. For some that 336 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,559 might be considered woke. For the teachers, it was a 337 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,160 really rewarding experience. 338 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 3: And it's also a Texas component right where there they 339 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,559 do like a also development in some of the battlefields here. 340 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,559 Speaker 6: Yeah, so there's a Texas Revolution road trip where you know, 341 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,200 again to really understand the revolution in its entirety. So 342 00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:28,200 it starts at the Alamo and then moves on to Goliad, 343 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,359 Washington on the brass because of course the Constitution was 344 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,400 being signed at the same time, you know, and nobody 345 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,000 knew what was happening at the Alamo versus the the 346 00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:40,839 attendees at Washington on the Brasas, then on to San 347 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:44,920 Felipe d Austin, and then finally San Jacinto on San 348 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,119 Jacinto Day. So the teachers kind of get to walk 349 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,680 in the footsteps of those who fought all of those 350 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,519 battles as part of the revolution. 351 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:54,279 Speaker 4: And part of it. 352 00:18:54,319 --> 00:18:56,319 Speaker 3: I don't know if you objection to me reading, but 353 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,000 you know, kind of it is like you were really 354 00:18:58,039 --> 00:18:59,960 candid in some of these views, and this was ears 355 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:01,480 like you know, at one. 356 00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 5: Apparently too candid. 357 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,799 Speaker 1: Just for clarity, this dissertation was written while you were 358 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,440 working at the partially partially at the Element partially, So. 359 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 6: I mean you have to remember that a dissertation is 360 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:21,880 written over several years, and so part of it was 361 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,119 written I started the program before I got to the Alamo, 362 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:28,720 and then part of it, yes, would have been written afterward. 363 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,799 And as you're evolving and you're writing the various chapters, 364 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:34,759 there's a lot of cutting and pasting of things you 365 00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:37,640 wrote before that's being well, this belongs in this section 366 00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:40,559 or that section. And when this all came up, honestly, 367 00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:44,039 I had to go find my dissertation and read what 368 00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:46,880 I had written, because I honestly couldn't remember, and I 369 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,160 was thinking, what did I write that was so offensive? 370 00:19:51,519 --> 00:19:54,160 Because again, if you've ever written a dissertation, you know 371 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,920 that no one ever reads them other than your committee. 372 00:19:58,079 --> 00:20:01,640 So your audience for your dissertation is largely your committee, right, 373 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:05,079 your chair and the committee members. And for this in particular, 374 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,160 I was my committee were faculty members at the University 375 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,039 of Southern California who really have no visibility into politics 376 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:14,119 in Texas. 377 00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:18,759 Speaker 5: So I was trying to explain the environment to them. 378 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,079 Was the point of the section that was pulled out, 379 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:22,920 and some. 380 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 4: Of your views as well. Again, I just wanted to 381 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,759 read this for listeners. We said. 382 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 3: Philosophically, I do not believe it is the role of 383 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,480 politicians to determine what professional educators can or should teach 384 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:36,920 in the classroom. Instead, teachers should be afforded the autonomy 385 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,160 to make those decisions based on their own expertise as 386 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,599 well as their needs the needs of their students. 387 00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: It feels pretty straightforward, right, You're essentially saying politicians should 388 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,960 not play a role in dictating sort. 389 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: Of how this history is taught. 390 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:53,839 Speaker 4: Is that. 391 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:55,759 Speaker 5: Yes? 392 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: Did you consider that to be a controversial statement at 393 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,759 the time, obviously not. 394 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,319 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a different time, you know, it was a 395 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,000 few years ago. Things have changed. I don't think that 396 00:21:08,079 --> 00:21:10,440 some of the things that are happening today were happening then. 397 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:14,200 I'm not the only person who's you know, been singled 398 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,559 out in this fashion. It's happening in our universities, you know, 399 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,160 the president of A and M just recently, you know, 400 00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:25,839 I I think it's it's it is interesting that, you know, 401 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:31,079 politicians who publicly support the right to free speech and 402 00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:35,400 actually argue for the right to free speech, are you know, 403 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,480 sort of saying, well but not not when you write 404 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,960 something that is potentially critical of something we believe, do. 405 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 2: You feel like that hypocritical of them? 406 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,599 Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's this shift that you're talking 407 00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:51,039 about is sort of contradictory. 408 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 6: You know, I think you can't be selective if you 409 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,599 if you stand for the First Amendment right, and you 410 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,680 stand for people's right to express their own views, their 411 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:06,839 own opinions, even if they disagree with you. I don't 412 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:08,920 think you can be selective in your defense of the 413 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,319 First Amendment. You're either supportive of it or you're not. 414 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: In an op ed, Lieutenant Governor Dean Patrick pulled out 415 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,240 a partner thesis on which you said the Alamo should 416 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:23,640 be quoting a beacon for historical reconciliation. Do you still 417 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,079 believe that that's sort of Is that how you would 418 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:26,799 frame that today? 419 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:34,279 Speaker 6: It's interesting because historical reconciliation is an academic term, right. 420 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,440 So look, there are all sorts of boogeyman things that 421 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:41,799 are quoted in my dissertation, one of them the Forget 422 00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:45,680 the Alamo Book. I'm not suggesting that I was a 423 00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:48,480 fan or am today a fan of the Forget the 424 00:22:48,519 --> 00:22:51,359 Alamo Book. It just I was trying to explain that 425 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,079 it came out right when I got there, and it 426 00:22:54,599 --> 00:22:56,640 created all of this controversy. 427 00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:03,279 Speaker 5: That was the only reason for bringing it up. What 428 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:04,160 did you ask me? 429 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: I think that like just sort of do you stand 430 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,279 by the idea that it should be a beacon for 431 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:10,200 historical reconsiam. 432 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, So. 433 00:23:12,279 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 6: At that time I also mentioned critical race theory, which 434 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,319 you know is also a big flashpoint the thing for me, 435 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:24,839 as you know, a person writing a dissertation, most of us, 436 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:27,559 in my experience, I went. 437 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,319 Speaker 5: To school public schools in Texas. 438 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,559 Speaker 6: I didn't learn about theoretical frameworks until I was working 439 00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:37,640 on my doctoral degree, where you're sort of searching for 440 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,559 a framework around which your research will be based, right 441 00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:45,599 so Colb's experiential learning theory or you know, some of 442 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,079 my classmates would use critical race theory. But I never 443 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,200 experienced in my public school years that theoretical frameworks were 444 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,000 even a part of K twelve education, you know. But 445 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,240 it became this big thing, sort of similar to the 446 00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:03,359 term well, you know, it's it's a label that has 447 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,880 become more of a political term in my view, to say, 448 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,640 you know, I don't agree with this person, you're this, 449 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:17,200 you're that. You know, so I'm sure that's what was 450 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,039 in my head when I was writing this. 451 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 5: Again, I had to go back and look at what 452 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,400 I had written, because I had you once you're done 453 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:23,960 with that thing. 454 00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:27,839 Speaker 6: Everyone knows the best kind of dissertation is a done dissertation, 455 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,559 and you put the thing on your on your shelf 456 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,759 and probably never to be heard from again. The fascinating thing. 457 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,319 So there's two things I want to say. A is 458 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,839 I have been overwhelmed by the number of people who 459 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,200 have reached out to offer their support, you know, letters 460 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,480 to the editor in San Antonio. Friends, I haven't talked 461 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,960 to you since high school who read about this, and 462 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,640 there's a lot of you know, concern, sometimes anger, you 463 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,480 know that this this was not a fair thing. Not 464 00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:05,480 for me to decide that, obviously, but I've also been 465 00:25:05,519 --> 00:25:08,240 floored how many people have said, well, I read your 466 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:11,799 dissertation and I thought you did, and they'll say, yeah, 467 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:13,799 I read it, and I didn't really see what was 468 00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:16,720 so offensive about it. I talked to one reporter who said, 469 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,440 it's not even about the Alamo, and I said, I 470 00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:26,880 know it's not, but for whatever reason, it became a 471 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,920 very offensive thing before. 472 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,839 Speaker 3: Three weeks ago. Had anyone read it? Have you received 473 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:33,000 any pushback, especially in sho. 474 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,519 Speaker 6: No, I've never even had because sometimes the only time 475 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:40,799 someone might reference your dissertation is someone who is doing 476 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:44,079 research on a similar topic, right, and then they'll reach 477 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,680 out to the researcher to say, hey, you know, I'm 478 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,079 working on a similar paper and they may have a 479 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,720 question for you. But I've never even had that. I've 480 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,880 never had anyone mention it. So it does, you know 481 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,720 the million dollar question about how all of this transpired? 482 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:03,440 Also who went and found it and why? 483 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,519 Speaker 2: And do you know who flagged this to the Lieutenant governor? 484 00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 5: I do not. 485 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: How did you reach the decision to resign? I mean 486 00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:13,079 where walk us through that experience? 487 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 4: Well? 488 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 6: I was asked to resign, so and you you know, 489 00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:19,839 just like I didn't want to be a distraction. 490 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,759 Speaker 1: To the product the moment you were asked to resign, 491 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,319 essentially being told like the implication there being you'll be fired, 492 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,319 which you're not going to get to that point in 493 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,519 all likelihood. So like, what was that experience of getting 494 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:33,839 that like order more or less and how did you 495 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,160 come to like, yes, it's time. 496 00:26:36,279 --> 00:26:40,759 Speaker 6: Well, I I was obviously very upset. I really loved 497 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:42,920 my job at the Almo and I felt like we 498 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,240 were doing good work, you know, so this wasn't anything 499 00:26:46,319 --> 00:26:49,960 based on my performance per se. Right, So technically, even 500 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,319 though the general land office is really the one overseeing 501 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,440 everything at the project. Technically, I reported to the board, 502 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,279 two boards of the Trust and the remember the Alamo Foundation, 503 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,279 and by all accounts, all of my reviews and evaluations 504 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,920 were always very positive. I was promoted in September. I 505 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,039 had a very positive review by the board in June. 506 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,680 So it was a bit of a shock. And it 507 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,960 all happened so fast. You know, within twenty five twenty 508 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,599 four hours. You know, we found your dissertation. You know, 509 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,240 the language is very concerning, and I think here's the 510 00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:29,480 part that I can understand why they said that you 511 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,119 just can't do this job, because it sounded like I 512 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,559 was being critical of the legislature in the in what 513 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,599 I wrote, And the legislature is the largest donor, they're 514 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,640 the funder of the project, and so I could see 515 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,720 how we can't have someone running this project who sounds 516 00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:51,359 ungrateful or critical of the largest donor to the project. 517 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,200 So that part I understood. It just all happened so fast. 518 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,519 So I really didn't have a lot of time to 519 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,799 process what was happening because there was you know, we 520 00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:05,039 found your dissertation. The next morning. You know, we're going 521 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,839 to you need to resign now it's on X, you know, 522 00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:14,720 and I really was just reeling from the whole experience 523 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:15,799 because it was so sudden. 524 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, at the beginning of the conversation, when we were 525 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,400 talking about Indigenous people say posts, you mentioned something about 526 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,160 how maybe you or others could have paid more attention 527 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,519 to the federal government. You also mentioned, when I was 528 00:28:29,559 --> 00:28:31,599 about to read the pastes that perhaps you're too candidate. 529 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 4: Do you have regrets through any of this? Like, how 530 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,519 how do you feel? Now? 531 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 6: That's a great question, and it probably changes a little 532 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,039 bit every day. 533 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:43,119 Speaker 2: You know. 534 00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:45,799 Speaker 5: I feel like this week, I'm just now kind. 535 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 6: Of getting my feet under me and starting to think 536 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,640 about the future and what I'm going to do next 537 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,960 and how I can still contribute and so forth. Of course, 538 00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:57,240 when this all came out, I thought, well, gosh, I 539 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,359 wish I hadn't written that, But I went back read 540 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:04,720 it and it probably was what was in my heart 541 00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:09,039 at the time. I didn't really know the Lieutenant Governor 542 00:29:09,079 --> 00:29:12,839 well before I took this project on, you know, never 543 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,680 had a you know, tense working relationship with him. I 544 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:21,359 found him to be very supportive and his love of 545 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,880 the I'll know to be quite genuine. So I, like 546 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,759 I said, for me, it was mostly just a huge 547 00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:29,559 surprise and very upsetting. 548 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,079 Speaker 4: Do you still believe some of the things you've written. 549 00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:37,279 Speaker 5: I do believe that teachers should be treated like professionals. 550 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:38,960 I do. I mean how could I not. 551 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,519 Speaker 6: I mean, my older sister, you know, is now an 552 00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:47,799 administration but one of the finest educator educators I've ever known, 553 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,440 and given my background, I think it's one of the 554 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,920 hardest jobs that anyone can possibly have because it requires 555 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,599 so much patience and creativity and you know, how are 556 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,720 you going to bring an individual topic to life to 557 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,319 you know, spark curiosity and all these very diverse young people. 558 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,319 And it's becoming a harder job in today's world. 559 00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 5: So I obviously have. 560 00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 6: A bias towards, you know, not over prescribing what teachers 561 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:21,240 can and should do in the classroom. But that's a 562 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,319 personal bias that I acknowledge, and not everyone feels that way. 563 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: And I mean you've sort of we've alluded to like 564 00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:31,519 things have changed, things are shifting, our political moment is 565 00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:33,640 changing all of that. I mean, as someone who was 566 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:36,880 sort of inside the government to a certain extent, I mean, 567 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,680 how do you feel like that shift in Texas has 568 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,319 impacted things like, you know, who gets to keep their job, 569 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,519 how we tell history. I mean, have you felt that 570 00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:48,799 shift even since you joined in twenty twenty one. 571 00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:53,119 Speaker 6: Yes, for sure I felt it, and I think, you know, 572 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,640 moving forward over the evolution of the script and ultimately 573 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,160 what goes on the text panels in the new museum, 574 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,519 there will be continued debate over that. As I mentioned, 575 00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:07,319 you know, there is a document that was created by 576 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,799 what was called the Alamo Citizen's Advisory Committee, which was 577 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,599 people appointed by city council members in San Antonio to 578 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,160 create this document called the Vision and Guiding Principles, and 579 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,559 it was a very high level document, but basically to 580 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:27,319 maintain a commitment to telling all the stories of the Alamo, 581 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,640 not shying away from those topics that can be uncomfortable, 582 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,640 like what was the role of slavery in the Texas Revolution? 583 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,160 You know, how will they tackle that? I don't know 584 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,720 the answer to that, obviously, but I strongly feel there 585 00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:44,920 will be continued debate over it. You know, I was 586 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,640 having a conversation on the way up here. You know, 587 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,799 like I said, I've just been floored by the number 588 00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:51,880 of people who have reached out and this was a 589 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,920 person who's a major donor to many things in San 590 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,319 Antonio and beyond, and they're very involved. 591 00:31:59,000 --> 00:31:59,839 Speaker 5: In higher education. 592 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 6: And you know, he was sort of saying like, it'll 593 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,480 be interesting to see how all this happens, because while 594 00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:10,680 you know, you have politicians now wanting to sort of 595 00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:13,960 say what can and should be talked about on our 596 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,920 college campuses, private donors don't necessarily feel that way. Now, 597 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,440 whether they have enough a big enough voice with the 598 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,480 dollars they contribute to actually make a difference, I don't know. 599 00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:30,839 I also, I think people are scared. You know, I'm 600 00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:34,720 older obviously than the two of you, but I didn't 601 00:32:34,759 --> 00:32:37,200 live through the McCarthy era in this country. 602 00:32:38,359 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 5: This felt like a little bit of a witch hunt 603 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,079 to me. That's scary. 604 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 6: You know, this is the United States of America. We're 605 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,640 not supposed to do things like that. We read about 606 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,359 things like that that happened in you know, in other places, 607 00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:54,759 but that's not supposed to happen here. 608 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,799 Speaker 3: And were you ever scared during your tenure? Did you 609 00:32:56,839 --> 00:32:59,880 ever think like, I'm kind of overseeing this massive project. 610 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,000 It's kind of like a mind field politically speaking, because 611 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,680 a lot of people have strong feelings about it, Like 612 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,119 did you did ever occur to you like I could 613 00:33:08,119 --> 00:33:09,200 be targeted one day? 614 00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 7: Well, clearly I wrote it in my desperation, not really, 615 00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:16,839 because I always felt like I had the strong support 616 00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:21,279 of the board, so I really didn't see myself as 617 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:22,279 that vulnerable. 618 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:23,359 Speaker 5: But obviously I was wrong. 619 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: You talk about I mean the fear of you know, politicization, 620 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,200 fear that people feel like they could lose their job 621 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,039 over things like this. There's obviously some degree of fear 622 00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:36,839 on the other side right that the like, what do 623 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,920 you think, what is your sense of why some of 624 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,279 our elected officials are so fearful of other parts of 625 00:33:43,319 --> 00:33:46,039 this story being told or the battle not being centered, Like, 626 00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:50,160 what is your understanding of what the concern is there? 627 00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:52,559 Speaker 6: I think that's a very good question, because I in 628 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,960 my job, I saw the extremes on both sides, and 629 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,759 you know, I will say so so presentism is a 630 00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:07,599 very dangerous thing in my view. This is just Kate's opinion, 631 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:12,079 but that means placing values of people living here in 632 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:15,360 America in twenty twenty five on men who lived a 633 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,239 couple hundred years ago. They were men of their time, 634 00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:23,480 they were flawed, We're all flawed, but doesn't diminish the 635 00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:26,760 contributions that they made. And I feel very strongly about that. 636 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,320 I mean, I think, you know, we can embrace Thomas Jefferson, 637 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,920 for example, on all of his complexity. The same with 638 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,599 George Washington, you know, he We don't have to take 639 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:43,480 away one person's history in order to bring forward the 640 00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:47,159 stories of people that are lesser known. So one big 641 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,360 flash point that I think you know speaks to that 642 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,239 is around the role of slavery in the Texas Revolution. 643 00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:58,239 I think it was a factor in Texas in eighteen 644 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,719 thirty six. The truth is is slavery was a pretty small, 645 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,719 especially chattel slavery a pretty small institution in Texas at 646 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,679 the time of the revolution. It grew exponentially after the revolution. 647 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,559 Were all one hundred and eighty nine men inside the 648 00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:18,000 Alamo fighting for exactly the same thing. I don't know 649 00:35:18,039 --> 00:35:19,960 how you could possibly say that, because you don't know 650 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,000 what was in their hearts and minds. And there were 651 00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:26,400 known abolitionists inside the Alamo as well as William B. 652 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,639 Travis who brought a slave with him, so it's it 653 00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:32,920 was more complicated. What I find troubling is that there 654 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,519 seems to be no room for nuance in history. 655 00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 5: It's either this or that, right, you're good or you're bad. 656 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,679 Speaker 6: And that's problematic because even at that time in Texas 657 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:52,559 and Mexico, views about slavery were changing dramatically about you know, 658 00:35:52,599 --> 00:35:54,800 how these men ended up here and how they were 659 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,599 going to make a viable economy in this in this 660 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,079 state that both Spain and men Mexico had been unsuccessful 661 00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:06,199 in settling prior to the arrival of the Texans. 662 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I mean, that's I think the lack of nuance. 663 00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:11,679 And I think you could argue that is happening on 664 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:12,960 both sides, Like that's not right. 665 00:36:13,039 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: My Greetical Party does not own lack of nuances. Yeah, 666 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:15,840 for sure. 667 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: But it is sort of at the root of a 668 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,800 lot of this, it seems like, and and. 669 00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 6: I agree with you one hundred percent that history is 670 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,400 you know, Winston Churchill said it. 671 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 5: History is messy. 672 00:36:29,079 --> 00:36:34,119 Speaker 6: It's complicated, but he also said you have to know 673 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,239 it in order to lead, in order to ensure a 674 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,039 brighter future for any country. 675 00:36:41,199 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 5: But it is messy, right. 676 00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:46,039 Speaker 6: But I think what people are afraid of is that 677 00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:48,679 you're somehow going to suggest that the men who who 678 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,960 who laid it all on the line, they lost their 679 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:55,320 lives for what they believed in. They're going to somehow 680 00:36:55,519 --> 00:36:58,639 suggest that they didn't have courage or they weren't brave 681 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,639 in that moment. I don't think you have to do 682 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,559 that to also talk about, you know, what was happening 683 00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:08,639 around views on slavery at that time. You see what 684 00:37:08,679 --> 00:37:12,119 I'm saying, you can still be brave in eighteen thirty 685 00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:17,000 six in Texas and a proud Alamo defender and also 686 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,760 think that in order to develop Texas, cotton has got 687 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:22,519 to be a part of it. 688 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: And it sounds like you're like you're saying like people 689 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:31,079 who come to the Almo can sit with that. You 690 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,039 sort of believe that people who come here can sit 691 00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:36,000 with that reality that these people did these you know, 692 00:37:37,039 --> 00:37:40,559 very noble thing and also had a complicated backstory for 693 00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:42,119 the time or not even for the time. 694 00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:46,559 Speaker 6: I think people can. I think people can. And you 695 00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:51,039 know that's the role of museums. Museums are considered a 696 00:37:51,199 --> 00:37:56,159 very credible institution in this country more than elected officials 697 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,719 or politicians. They are trusted more than the government. So 698 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,239 you have huge responsibility. But your responsibility is not to 699 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,559 judge or to tell the visitor what to think. Your 700 00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:10,079 responsibility is to present the information in a very factual 701 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:13,480 and compelling way and let the visitor make their own decisions, 702 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:17,760 because every visitor brings to the Alamo their own set 703 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,280 of values, their own past experiences, their own personal history, 704 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,559 and all that is going to play into how they 705 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:28,400 experience it. What we wanted, what I wanted was for 706 00:38:28,559 --> 00:38:31,400 everybody to be able to see themselves in the story 707 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,159 of the Alamo, and I think a lot of museums 708 00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:35,119 try to accomplish that. 709 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,599 Speaker 4: Do you think anything accomplishing your ten year got closer 710 00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:38,800 to that. 711 00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:43,119 Speaker 6: I'm very proud of the work that we did, especially 712 00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:44,320 around our education. 713 00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 5: Programming Blundee Center, the new. 714 00:38:47,159 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 6: Education Center, which by the way, wasn't even paid for 715 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,840 by the state. That was all private dollars that were raised. 716 00:38:53,679 --> 00:38:57,360 And yes, the state is the largest and most generous donor. 717 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,199 None of this would be happening without that, without the 718 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,079 Lieutenant governor, without the legislature. 719 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,599 Speaker 5: But my team and I did raise ninety million. 720 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 6: Dollars privately to support the project as well, and the 721 00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:13,519 ED Center is one hundred percent funded privately, and I 722 00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:18,480 you know, hope that it remains a place where school children, 723 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,920 you know, have a place to call their own if 724 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,320 the Alamo teachers can participate in robust programming. Social studies 725 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,360 is such an important subject, but it's often overlooked because 726 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,119 it's not tested in the early grades in our schools. 727 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,840 But it's the subject where you're supposed to learn how 728 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,519 to participate in a democracy. 729 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 2: So what comes next for you? What's sort of the 730 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:43,360 next chapter? 731 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,119 Speaker 5: Great question? 732 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,280 Speaker 6: Like I said, I think I've just you know, I 733 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,800 sort of feel like I got you know, punched in 734 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,159 the stomach. Took me a little while to get my 735 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,280 breath back. I'm starting this week to kind of turn 736 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,320 that corner and think about what's next. Obviously, you know, 737 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,320 I hope to continue my passion for serving the community, 738 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,880 for making a difference, for leaving you know, the world 739 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,840 a better place than it was when I when I 740 00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:15,880 when I got there. I like to build things. The 741 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,719 complexity of this project did not scare me, and so 742 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,239 who knows, hopefully, hopefully there's God has a path for 743 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:25,880 me out there. 744 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 3: Might you build a lawsuit related to your. 745 00:40:31,199 --> 00:40:33,039 Speaker 5: I don't know about that. I don't know about that. 746 00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:35,159 Speaker 6: I would I would like to look to the future 747 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,400 rather than dwelling on the past or what happened to 748 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,760 me other than you know, I think that people would 749 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,400 be happier if I didn't talk about all of this. 750 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,400 But I think it's important that we do talk about 751 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,280 it because if we don't, I think there's great risk 752 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,559 there and. 753 00:40:57,679 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 4: Kind of like to peel back to current. Maybe we 754 00:40:59,400 --> 00:40:59,960 could end on this. 755 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:03,320 Speaker 3: You know, it was interesting, but when he texted me, 756 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,039 we had been communicating trying to set this up, and 757 00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:06,800 the first interview fell apart, but then the second time. 758 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,039 Speaker 4: Both times he texted me, I'm ready to speak out. 759 00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:13,199 Speaker 3: What On a final note, what does Kate Rogers want 760 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,719 to say? 761 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 6: What do I want to say? I want to say. 762 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,559 You know that I thoroughly enjoyed my time at the ALMO. 763 00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:27,119 Speaker 5: I learned a lot. I'm deep in my own knowledge 764 00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:29,000 of Texas history. I got to work. 765 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 6: Alongside a great team accomplishing great things together. 766 00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 5: That's kind of a unique thing. 767 00:41:36,039 --> 00:41:38,119 Speaker 6: You don't always get that in your professional life, where 768 00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:40,920 you just really have this team that jives and works 769 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,440 well together and you're taking on this big project. So 770 00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:49,840 that was very rewarding to me. Secondly, I you know, 771 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,199 I do think that we all should not. 772 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:59,559 Speaker 5: Look the other way. That this is the US. 773 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,280 Speaker 6: And this is not China or Russia or any place else, 774 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,559 and we're supposed to be able to say what we think, 775 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,119 We're supposed to be able to disagree. 776 00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 5: With one another. 777 00:42:08,119 --> 00:42:12,679 Speaker 6: And I think it's important that we all pay attention 778 00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:17,199 to that, because I think, you know, some big shifts 779 00:42:17,199 --> 00:42:21,119 in world history have happened when people chose to stay 780 00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:25,360 silent or to look the other way. 781 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: Kate Rogers, formerly of the Alamo Trust, thank you so 782 00:42:29,079 --> 00:42:32,559 much for joining us. Thank you, Alejandro, thank you as well. 783 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,239 That is it for this week's episode of the trib Cast. 784 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,159 You can get all episodes wherever you get your podcasts 785 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,199 or on YouTube, except as a reminder next week's episode, 786 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,840 because we'll be later this week at trib Fest. Make 787 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,119 sure you can still get tickets if you're interested. Open 788 00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:49,920 Congress on Saturday is open to the public and free. 789 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,960 Our producers are Rob and Chris, and we will see 790 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:53,960 you next week.