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<v Speaker 1>Coming to you from the dining room table at East

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<v Speaker 1>Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special episode of Full Circle

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<v Speaker 1>the Podcast. I am your host, Charles Tyson Junior, and

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<v Speaker 1>today I am delighted to be sitting with our guest.

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<v Speaker 1>He is a wonderful author, storyteller, educator, and what a

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<v Speaker 1>human being. Wayne Scott is here to talk about his

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<v Speaker 1>memoir The Maps They gave us One Marriage Reimagined, and

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<v Speaker 1>I am here to tell you that it is a

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<v Speaker 1>wonderful read and I can't wait to talk to him

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<v Speaker 1>about it. Wayne. How are you welcome to the Full

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<v Speaker 1>Circle Table.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, thank you very much for inviting me. It's an honor.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been looking looking forward to this. I just finished

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<v Speaker 1>the last thirty pages last night.

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<v Speaker 2>Last I'm bowing to you, like not like the writer's soul,

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<v Speaker 2>like like somebody, especially in this day and age, somebody

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<v Speaker 2>saying they read it.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, oh, I inhaled everything, but the last thirty

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<v Speaker 1>pages in like less than a week because I read

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<v Speaker 1>it while I'm at work, because I have a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of downtime. It worked, okay, okay, and then I

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<v Speaker 1>got busy and I had the last thirty pages and

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<v Speaker 1>it was causing me to have a little tick.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow. Okay, that's so cool for me to hear.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is a deeply personal story, obviously mamoors usually are.

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<v Speaker 1>But you talk about a lot of deep things. Uh family, identity, Uh, sexuality.

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<v Speaker 1>Why don't you tell us a little bit about, or

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<v Speaker 1>more than a little bit, what the maps they gave

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<v Speaker 1>us is about.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, first of all, maybe what it can say

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<v Speaker 2>is where the title comes from. The title comes from

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<v Speaker 2>a love poem that was written by the lesbian feminist

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<v Speaker 2>poet Adrian Rich in the seventies, a series of poems

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<v Speaker 2>called the twenty one Love Poems, and it was about

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning of her relationship with another woman, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was very much about what it's like to love each

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<v Speaker 2>other in a world that's hostile to your love. And

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<v Speaker 2>so the line is, whatever we do together is pure invention.

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<v Speaker 2>The maps they gave us were out of date by years.

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<v Speaker 1>Beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so she's very much talking about how for

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<v Speaker 2>queer couples we have to chart our own course. We

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<v Speaker 2>have to forge a different path. You know, we can't

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<v Speaker 2>actually fit into the kind of heteronormative containers that are

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<v Speaker 2>supplied to us. They won't fit and so we have

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<v Speaker 2>to figure out some creatively, imaginatively, we have to design

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<v Speaker 2>our own containers. And so this very much fits with

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<v Speaker 2>my experience. My spouse and I are in what psychologists,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to just a clunky term here, what psychologists

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<v Speaker 2>call a mixed orientation relationship, which means she's straight and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not. You know, I identify as queer or bisexual,

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<v Speaker 2>and and you know those don't fit those kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>relationships don't fit in the usual heteronormative script. Although you

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<v Speaker 2>know for I'm not, I'm not, I'm not unlike many

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<v Speaker 2>bisexual guys who marry women and move in straight passing relationships,

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<v Speaker 2>and that you try, you try. This is what this

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<v Speaker 2>is what, this is the form, the container that is

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<v Speaker 2>given to you by your the people that you want

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<v Speaker 2>to please and get approval from minister's family, things like that,

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<v Speaker 2>and so you try. And you know, when my spouse

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<v Speaker 2>and I made are marriage vows, right, we were in

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<v Speaker 2>our late twenties. And you don't know what do.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what? You don't know much in your twenties.

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<v Speaker 2>No, and you don't know much in your sixties. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean you can't foretell, right, you can't see what life

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be like. You don't know a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about what it's going to be like to get older,

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<v Speaker 2>to age. You don't know like the ways in which

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<v Speaker 2>desire and intimacy shift and evolve as two people are

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<v Speaker 2>aging together within the same receptacle. And so for us,

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<v Speaker 2>at least the heteronormative container we had it, it didn't

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't fit. At a certain point, at about the

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen year mark, we had a bit of a crisis

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<v Speaker 2>and I realized I had kind of lopped off this

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<v Speaker 2>huge important part of myself. It's almost like I had

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<v Speaker 2>forgotten who I was in a way that I just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of I couldn't tolerate anymore. The loneliness and the

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<v Speaker 2>desperation and the desolation was too much. And I also

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know how to talk to her about it, because,

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<v Speaker 2>again with the script that was a supply to us

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<v Speaker 2>about what a heteronormative marriage is supposed to look like,

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<v Speaker 2>for me to initiate the conversation would be to initiate

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<v Speaker 2>a conversation about divorce. That's that's how it felt like.

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<v Speaker 2>We have a very binary way of thinking about all

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<v Speaker 2>these different you know, whether it's male or female or

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<v Speaker 2>monogamy or they are straight or marriage or divorce, right, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>or monogamy or not. Like it's they're very polarized ways.

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<v Speaker 2>And and in fact, human humans, human relationships and humans

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<v Speaker 2>are messier and more fluid than that. Right. And we

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<v Speaker 2>need and we need to find containers. Maybe we need

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<v Speaker 2>to reinvent, reimagine containers that are going to allow us

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<v Speaker 2>more room to grow, to evolve, to heal sometimes.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. And I think it also comes down to I

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<v Speaker 1>think wiring because some people I was actually just having

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<v Speaker 1>this conversation a couple of days ago, how like, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think I'm wired for something like an open relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hm, like.

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<v Speaker 1>I And I think part of that is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in my twenties and thirties, I was such a hoe.

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<v Speaker 1>So when I'm ready to settle down, I'm ready to

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<v Speaker 1>like settle down.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm seeing more and more with friends that they're

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<v Speaker 1>exploring open relationships, and to me from the outside, it

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<v Speaker 1>just looks so messy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep, No, you're right, it is messy.

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<v Speaker 1>But if it works, I mean, you know, I try

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<v Speaker 1>to like not sit in judgment because if it's working

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<v Speaker 1>for you and no one's getting hurt. Who am I

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<v Speaker 1>to have anything to say?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I just don't think I'm wired that way.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you are good at god speed, you know

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<v Speaker 1>what I mean?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, And I actually appreciate you saying what you just said,

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<v Speaker 2>because I think it's very important to come into any

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<v Speaker 2>conversation like this with out an agenda and without being

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<v Speaker 2>prescriptive or dogmatic that one relationship form is superior to another.

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<v Speaker 2>We all have to find our way, right. And actually,

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<v Speaker 2>you know when you first said I am not wired

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<v Speaker 2>for nominogamy, honestly, Charles, I would have said that. I

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<v Speaker 2>would have said that a couple of years ago to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, And the period of time that's depicted in

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<v Speaker 2>the memoir is a period. It's a it's a crucible,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a period of intense struggle with this couple trying

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<v Speaker 2>this marital experiment. Can we transition into a non monogamous

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<v Speaker 2>form from what we had? And we didn't know it

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<v Speaker 2>was going to work, We really didn't. We thought of

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<v Speaker 2>it as an experiment and it was quite fraught for

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<v Speaker 2>you know, for about a year, it was quite fraud

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<v Speaker 2>But at a certain point, as with everything, you do

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<v Speaker 2>it enough you start to develop your your routines and

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<v Speaker 2>your grooves and your guardrails, and you figure out how

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<v Speaker 2>how this is, how we can make this safe. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the biggest ways for us, that's

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<v Speaker 2>in the memoir that we made it safe was to

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<v Speaker 2>make sure that we always honored our bond to each other. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>you know that we had to continuously nurture our bond

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<v Speaker 2>and have very open discussions about you know, how were

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<v Speaker 2>these other relationships going to be Where were they going

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<v Speaker 2>to sit in relationship to the to the thing that

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<v Speaker 2>was important to both of us, which is what was

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<v Speaker 2>both our bond but also our family. We had three

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<v Speaker 2>school aged children.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, it felt very like our marriage is this,

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<v Speaker 1>anything else is that and that cannot affect this and

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<v Speaker 1>vice versa.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And you know, I want to say too, like

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<v Speaker 2>I because I'm a psychotherapist myself and I work with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of non monogamous couples. There's so many forms

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<v Speaker 2>this takes, and in many ways I probably have you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm probably more vanilla flavor of polyamory than the average person.

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<v Speaker 2>And that we do like our marriage is the central

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<v Speaker 2>thing and then we have outside relationships and not everybody

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<v Speaker 2>does it that way some some people do it in

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<v Speaker 2>a way where they're more equal egalitarian. All relationships are important.

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<v Speaker 2>There's just so many ways to do it. And I

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<v Speaker 2>have respect for all of them, actually, and I have

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<v Speaker 2>I have respect for people who are in monogamous bonds

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<v Speaker 2>as well. It's it's hard no matter what you do, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's gonna be its. It's both joyful, but it's also

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<v Speaker 2>struggle whenever two people are trying to move through life

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<v Speaker 2>and tandem right.

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<v Speaker 1>And I guess it comes down to what are the

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<v Speaker 1>needs being met by each relationship? Yeah, right, because I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, not every everyone can't be everything, So you

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<v Speaker 1>need to find the healthiest way to get those needs met,

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<v Speaker 1>keeping everyone basically safe and sane. It's a it's a

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<v Speaker 1>tap dance, I feel.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, you know it is it is. It

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<v Speaker 2>is a dance. And you have to be conscious of

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<v Speaker 2>what your what your partner's doing, what they're needing. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to keep your eyes on each other, out

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<v Speaker 2>of out of a place of caring.

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<v Speaker 1>A very tense part for me anyway. I was like

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<v Speaker 1>literally on the edge of my seat when I was reading.

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<v Speaker 1>Was the moments when you made that you both made

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<v Speaker 1>the decisions to introduce the other to your other, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you're both having varying degrees of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>how should I be? Wait, I kind of like this person?

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<v Speaker 1>Should I like this person?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? No, I mean it's when we first started down

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<v Speaker 2>this path, we decided that, because of our own history,

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<v Speaker 2>because of our own emotional dynamic, if we were going

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<v Speaker 2>to have this experiment, she had to go first. She

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<v Speaker 2>had to make connections with other people and see how

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<v Speaker 2>that would go for her. It couldn't be me going first.

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<v Speaker 1>Because that would be too close to.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think it would. I think it could

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<v Speaker 2>be seen as self serving. I I just she was

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<v Speaker 2>the more I think she was of the two of us,

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<v Speaker 2>she was a little bit more ambivalent about going down

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<v Speaker 2>this path. I mean I also had my anxieties about it,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think she was She had a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>more ambivalence, and so just out of respect for you know,

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<v Speaker 2>for me not to get out too far ahead of her,

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<v Speaker 2>to respect her pace. Yeah, Yeah, basically that was it.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know the thing is, even when she sort

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<v Speaker 2>of was connecting with other men, having dates and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that, it was like very threatening for me. Like

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't think it I didn't imagine. I didn't think

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<v Speaker 2>it would be, but it but it was. It was.

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<v Speaker 2>And the first couple of times she went out, these

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<v Speaker 2>are these are all stories that are in the memoir.

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<v Speaker 2>I was miserable. I was miserable at home waiting, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like I kept thinking I should have something to do

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<v Speaker 2>productive with my time to distract myself. I should watch

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<v Speaker 2>a movie, stuff like that, and I kept just be like,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just waiting. I was just like waiting looking out

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<v Speaker 2>the window at the parking spot where her car was

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to be, just waiting for her to come home,

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<v Speaker 2>which is just the worst thing you can do. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not I do not advise that as a way to

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<v Speaker 2>deal with the first a few times your partner goes

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<v Speaker 2>out on a date. But that's what I did. I

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<v Speaker 2>was I just I just made myself miserable, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And then when she comes home and she's not miserable,

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<v Speaker 1>she had the nerve to have a good time.

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<v Speaker 2>Then, yeah, I mean what A lot of no monogamous

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<v Speaker 2>couples refer that refer to that as re entry dynamics.

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<v Speaker 2>When you come back to the to the person who

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<v Speaker 2>was left, you know, and both people often are in

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<v Speaker 2>very different emotional spaces that way, and you gotta and

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<v Speaker 2>you gotta have conversations about how do we want to

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<v Speaker 2>navigate that, what's the level of transparency we want to

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<v Speaker 2>have about what each of us is up to and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that, how do we what's the right level

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<v Speaker 2>of connections to each other's lives as well as protection?

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<v Speaker 1>And I imagine also because what basically was the impetus

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<v Speaker 1>for this whole thing was you had a moment of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we'll call it infidelity, and so you probably

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<v Speaker 1>had a moment of like, do I even deserve to

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<v Speaker 1>do I even have the right to have any feelings

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<v Speaker 1>about this?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Definitely there was betrayal, right, and there were behaviors

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<v Speaker 2>that I am not proud to talk about. But I think,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like many human beings, you know, I had

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<v Speaker 2>kind of backed myself into a corner having agreed to

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<v Speaker 2>a marital form that didn't allow me enough room to

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<v Speaker 2>have it, to even have that conversation that this isn't

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't working or fitting for me, Like, I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know how to have that conversation, because to have that

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<v Speaker 2>conversation would be akin to asking for divorce. Within the

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<v Speaker 2>model we had been supplied right, right, And my thing was,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to be married to you. I'm still in

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<v Speaker 2>love with you. I don't ever want to not be

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<v Speaker 2>with you, but I also want to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>acknowledge this other part of who I am. Right, And again,

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<v Speaker 2>there's just not there's a lot of erasure in our

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<v Speaker 2>culture around when it comes to queer and bisexual, especially

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<v Speaker 2>bisexual identities.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's the thing, like as as a bisexual man,

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<v Speaker 1>like I completely understand. That's why, you know, when I

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<v Speaker 1>was still dating cis gender women, they had to be queer.

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<v Speaker 2>They had to like at that table, yeah, because then

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<v Speaker 2>they would understand, they would they would they be able

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<v Speaker 2>to I mean it wouldn't mean that it would be

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<v Speaker 2>completely easy, but they would understand why you couldn't just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of buy into a heteronormative container that wasn't going

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<v Speaker 2>to fit for you, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know then because inevitably the tired tropes start

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<v Speaker 1>coming in. Well, I can't compete with a man, it's

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<v Speaker 1>not a competition, huh yeah, yeah, you know, or you're

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<v Speaker 1>just gay.

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<v Speaker 2>Right obviously not right? Right? Yeah, you know, it's interesting

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<v Speaker 2>I learned there's a there's a potential when you go

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<v Speaker 2>down this path to learn an awful lot about yourself

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<v Speaker 2>that you wouldn't that you wouldn't know otherwise. So, like

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I mentioned that when she would go out

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<v Speaker 2>on dates, I would stay at home and have a

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<v Speaker 2>private little crisis of masculine pride. A lot of stuff

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<v Speaker 2>insecurity came up about my own male identity and having

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<v Speaker 2>grown up as a kind of a misfit boy right

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<v Speaker 2>in a heteronormative world, being very kind of genderly typical myself.

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<v Speaker 2>I had absorbed a lot of shame. There was a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of residual shame that I just don't fit in

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<v Speaker 2>this world. I'm not right. There's something wrong with my boyhood,

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<v Speaker 2>my masculinity. And this came up very powerful from powerfully

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<v Speaker 2>for me. When she went out with a regular heado

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<v Speaker 2>sexual guy, he was the better guy, you know, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>And I either some part of me wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>a normal guy who doesn't when they're a kid, especially

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you want because what you would be safe

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<v Speaker 2>then then people wouldn't pick on you as much. So

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff. But interestingly, because we had committed

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<v Speaker 2>this to this path of nominogamy, the way that I

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00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:28.080
<v Speaker 2>had to manage that internal sense of threat. I couldn't impose.

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't try to control her and say, well, you

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<v Speaker 2>just can't do that anymore because it brings up too

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<v Speaker 2>much unpleasantness in me. I couldn't do that. I had

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<v Speaker 2>you actually have to go inward and say, Okay, I

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<v Speaker 2>need to understand this part of myself. And and for me,

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<v Speaker 2>painful as it was, it was a really really important reckoning.

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<v Speaker 2>You know that I had absorbed, still had absorbed so

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<v Speaker 2>many messages that there was something wrong with the way

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<v Speaker 2>I showed up as a guy in the world that

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<v Speaker 2>I needed to still let go of. I needed to

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<v Speaker 2>shed those supplied and just structive definitions of masculinity, that

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<v Speaker 2>the way that the way that I was a man

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<v Speaker 2>was perfectly.

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<v Speaker 1>Fine, exactly. And you know, I've been a huge proponent

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<v Speaker 1>of the idea that there is more than one way

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<v Speaker 1>to be a man, and I used to say there's

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<v Speaker 1>no wrong way, but examples that make that statement wrong

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00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:31.440
<v Speaker 1>keep coming up these days or whatever. But yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>I totally, I totally get that. And when you're a

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00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:43.559
<v Speaker 1>bisexual man, you're walking that line because if you're dating men,

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00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:49.000
<v Speaker 1>if you're in the space where that is the accepted

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00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.279
<v Speaker 1>norm you know, then you run the risk of not

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<v Speaker 1>being gay enough, and then the in the the other

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<v Speaker 1>after that, you're you're a quote unquote too gay. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's like, how do I set those levels? It's yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a unique thing for for queer and by folks.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I still like a little guilty confession here,

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00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:17.880
<v Speaker 2>But like, I still feel like I have a very

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00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:25.960
<v Speaker 2>uneasy relationship to the words queer and gay because experientially

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like I belong. But I also, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I still live under the same roof with my wife.

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<v Speaker 2>I still I still have enormous privileges in moving through

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<v Speaker 2>the world in a straight passing relationship. And so sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>I feel I feel, I feel like sometimes when I say,

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<v Speaker 2>when I refer to myself as being queer, I feel

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<v Speaker 2>like I'm going to get thrown out of the club,

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<v Speaker 2>or that there's some kind of police that are going

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<v Speaker 2>to show up and say, you know what, h no,

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<v Speaker 2>You're not living with enough danger and risk. But I

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<v Speaker 2>mean I think, you know, I mean, you know, I

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00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:05.519
<v Speaker 2>mean I'm not as straight passing now as I was

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<v Speaker 2>pre having all these publications. You know, like now most

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<v Speaker 2>people know that I'm an odd ball, you know, I'm like,

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00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:16.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm a kind of my own weirdo, and I'm happy

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<v Speaker 2>that way. You know, I'm happy, I'm kind of proudly

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<v Speaker 2>kind of charting my own path. But I didn't always

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<v Speaker 2>used to be that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I know, I think it was at your wedding

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00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:31.279
<v Speaker 1>or after the wedding, I think you like said to

337
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.960
<v Speaker 1>your mom, can you like just drop a little hint

338
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:35.960
<v Speaker 1>about my queerness just to let.

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00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.440
<v Speaker 2>People know, yeah, that I'm not even though we were

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<v Speaker 2>getting married in a relatively conventional looking form that, at

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<v Speaker 2>least at that point in the game, I did not

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00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:49.960
<v Speaker 2>want to. I didn't want people to think I was

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<v Speaker 2>losing that awareness who I was. I didn't want it

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00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.960
<v Speaker 2>to be perceived as me converting. Right. That was actually

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00:19:55.960 --> 00:20:00.640
<v Speaker 2>the most frightening thing of all is that anyone witnessing

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00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.599
<v Speaker 2>our marriage would think, oh, gay men can just change them. Well,

347
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:06.839
<v Speaker 2>let's just ask them all to change. Let's just start

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00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:08.920
<v Speaker 2>putting pressure on our sons to sort of like to

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<v Speaker 2>be to go back out and go out with girls,

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<v Speaker 2>and if they just give it a try, they'll be.

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<v Speaker 2>That would that would, to me, would be the most

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00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.359
<v Speaker 2>toxic thing for people to take from our being together,

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00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.559
<v Speaker 2>our our our wedding ceremony.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet the right girl.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but but but in a world that is

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<v Speaker 2>still still to this day so hostile. Oh my god,

357
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<v Speaker 2>it's getting I mean, I just feel like I feel

358
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<v Speaker 2>like we made so much progress and now I just

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<v Speaker 2>feel like it it is. I never thought it could

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<v Speaker 2>be so terrifyingly retro.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. I It's funny. I'm revisiting so many conversations

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<v Speaker 1>that I've been having with you today. I was just

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<v Speaker 1>talking about how, you know, I came out in the

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00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:06.720
<v Speaker 1>early nineties and and like that whole decade, queerness was

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<v Speaker 1>still taboo. You know, we still had we were on

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<v Speaker 1>the well not really tail end of, but we're on

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<v Speaker 1>the the the later part.

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<v Speaker 2>Of the AIDS very dangerous right.

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<v Speaker 1>Sex of any kind still has that that specter around it.

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<v Speaker 1>People were still equating homosexuality with with AIDS. So there

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<v Speaker 1>was still that permeating homophobia in in society. So you know,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what we were dealing with. So my queerness and

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<v Speaker 1>my being out throughout that decade felt very confrontational. It

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<v Speaker 1>felt very you know, punk rock. It felt very you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here, You're going to deal with me. You're gonna

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00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:02.839
<v Speaker 1>like it. And if you don't like it. And it's

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00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:08.200
<v Speaker 1>starting to feel like that again, Like, you know, I

378
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<v Speaker 1>haven't had a bottle thrown at me from a moving

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<v Speaker 1>car in broad daylight yet, so at least it's different

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00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:20.920
<v Speaker 1>in that sense. But so, yeah, we're going backwards.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it's interesting to me, I said, I

382
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<v Speaker 2>might get sad talking about this because it just hits

383
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<v Speaker 2>so close to home. But the way, the degree to

384
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:38.799
<v Speaker 2>which our larger authoritarian structures are picking on trans kids

385
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<v Speaker 2>is just killing me because I'm so much more aware currently,

386
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.119
<v Speaker 2>and I'm a parent, I'm so much more aware now

387
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.880
<v Speaker 2>of how incredibly vulnerable that tiny group of kids are

388
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<v Speaker 2>in the world, you know, Like, and they do not

389
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<v Speaker 2>need any more hostility piled on top of them. They

390
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:00.960
<v Speaker 2>do not need any more peace people in the world

391
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.440
<v Speaker 2>telling them there's something wrong with them. They are already

392
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:07.000
<v Speaker 2>a bit vulnerable in this you know, kind of brutal world.

393
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<v Speaker 2>But then just being a kid is vulnerable. But then

394
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:13.759
<v Speaker 2>being a kid who doesn't kind of fit the mold.

395
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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think it's a little bit easier, depend

396
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.160
<v Speaker 2>on what region of the country you're in. But but

397
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.559
<v Speaker 2>the other piece of me, you know, remembering back to

398
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.200
<v Speaker 2>our history, you know, and Stonewall is remembering you know what,

399
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.160
<v Speaker 2>watch who you pick on, Watch who you pick on,

400
00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.200
<v Speaker 2>because you know it. The first people who fought back

401
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:39.759
<v Speaker 2>at Stonewall were our non binary siblings. They were they

402
00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.880
<v Speaker 2>were the first person people to fight back with ferocity,

403
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.559
<v Speaker 2>and people sometimes forget that. So, you know, So there's

404
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.200
<v Speaker 2>also a part of me that's like, you know, we

405
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:53.119
<v Speaker 2>have been here before where there was this cultural animosity

406
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.039
<v Speaker 2>towards the queer community. We've been here before, and in

407
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:58.799
<v Speaker 2>a way we kind of know what to do. You know.

408
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.680
<v Speaker 2>You just don't lose your voice. You know. The people

409
00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.720
<v Speaker 2>who are positioned to be strong and to raise their voice,

410
00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:08.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, have to keep doing that, you know. And

411
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.240
<v Speaker 2>I see them out there, you know, I see people

412
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.839
<v Speaker 2>out there saying that this is wrong, what we're doing

413
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.039
<v Speaker 2>and how we're talking. Especially again, I'm just particularly sensitized

414
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:22.440
<v Speaker 2>now to the to the plight of trans kids. But

415
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:25.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, we got we gotta stay strong.

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00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.599
<v Speaker 1>And indeed we really do. And luckily, you know, we

417
00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:38.079
<v Speaker 1>now come from that stock of activism and rebelliousness, you know,

418
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:43.160
<v Speaker 1>And this is the part that it cracks me up

419
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:49.559
<v Speaker 1>because it's, you know, the idea that queer folks are weak.

420
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.160
<v Speaker 1>It's like, we spent a lot of our lives fighting,

421
00:24:53.759 --> 00:25:01.920
<v Speaker 1>like what makes you think, you know, and we have

422
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:07.319
<v Speaker 1>these people that, you know, the ones making these decisions

423
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:13.240
<v Speaker 1>are overfed, overprivileged, never had to go through anything significant, right,

424
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.640
<v Speaker 1>and they're coming at us who've had to like overcome

425
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.119
<v Speaker 1>all of the things, you know, make something fabulous out

426
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:24.480
<v Speaker 1>of nothing. It's like, why do you think that you

427
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:25.720
<v Speaker 1>can come for us like that?

428
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.359
<v Speaker 2>Right? Right? Right? Yeah? I mean, and I love you

429
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.640
<v Speaker 2>saying I love that you just said making something fabulous

430
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:37.240
<v Speaker 2>out of nothing, because I mean the teeny tiny consolation

431
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:41.960
<v Speaker 2>that for me is coming out of this brutal period

432
00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:45.000
<v Speaker 2>of history that we find ourselves in, is that these

433
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:51.240
<v Speaker 2>are the kinds of crucibles that produce extraordinary art. You know,

434
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:56.200
<v Speaker 2>Like I said, I think about like James Baldwin's Giovanni's Room,

435
00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.240
<v Speaker 2>which to me is like this, to say it's path

436
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:05.200
<v Speaker 2>breaking for what it was doing in the fifties is

437
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.519
<v Speaker 2>to is to diminish it. It was like like like

438
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like it was visionary. I mean it actually

439
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:18.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, one of the things in my memoir I

440
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.599
<v Speaker 2>there's a reckoning, there is a there's a there's a

441
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.039
<v Speaker 2>reckoning with the fact that, you know what, I'm not

442
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:28.240
<v Speaker 2>actually doing anything particularly new or innovative. Here. There is

443
00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:35.319
<v Speaker 2>a legacy of queer and feminist writers and people and

444
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.920
<v Speaker 2>heroes who have lit the way, if you can only

445
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.599
<v Speaker 2>find them, right, because you just gotta find them. You gotta,

446
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.640
<v Speaker 2>you gotta you, we gotta. This is why banning books

447
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:51.359
<v Speaker 2>is so incredibly dangerous, right, because it erases history and culture,

448
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:56.279
<v Speaker 2>marginalized cultures that in fact show you know, you're It's like,

449
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:58.920
<v Speaker 2>it's like Baldwin says, you're suffering. You think you're suffering

450
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.839
<v Speaker 2>is unique. You think it's the worst thing that's ever

451
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.119
<v Speaker 2>happened in the world. It's not. It's not. Other people

452
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.599
<v Speaker 2>have done this, and if you can find those examples, right,

453
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:09.920
<v Speaker 2>there's this There's a scene in the memoir early on.

454
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:13.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, I was during the just like you, I

455
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:15.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of was coming of age during the AIDS pandemic,

456
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:18.519
<v Speaker 2>and I found out that one of my former boyfriends

457
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>had probably had AIDS how to go through getting tested,

458
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and at that time you would wait through or weeks

459
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:29.759
<v Speaker 2>for your results, this unparrible period of like and I

460
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.720
<v Speaker 2>was sick during the time, I had a really bad

461
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>cold that wouldn't go away, probably because of the stress.

462
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:37.519
<v Speaker 2>So I really thought I really thought it. Yeah, I

463
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 2>really thought this was it. But in that time of crisis,

464
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:43.880
<v Speaker 2>when I was so miserable and so alone too, because

465
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:46.079
<v Speaker 2>I didn't tell anybody I was waiting for my HIV tests,

466
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:51.319
<v Speaker 2>I was too embarrassed and shamed. Right, I discovered Audrey

467
00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:56.880
<v Speaker 2>Lord's The Cancer Journals, her intimate exploration of what it

468
00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.720
<v Speaker 2>was like as an African American, lesbian, Famish woman to

469
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:05.119
<v Speaker 2>have breast cancer in a world that politicizes that disease

470
00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:09.039
<v Speaker 2>and blames the victims. Right, And it was really like

471
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:14.400
<v Speaker 2>she was like, she's like my best friend. I slept

472
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:16.839
<v Speaker 2>with that book, and it's a thin book. I just

473
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.160
<v Speaker 2>read and reread The Cancer Journals because I just was like,

474
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:25.519
<v Speaker 2>she is my fellow traveler. She has already gone down

475
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:28.960
<v Speaker 2>this path. And you know, and it's interesting too because

476
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:31.240
<v Speaker 2>in eighty seven when I read The Cancer Journal, she

477
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.319
<v Speaker 2>was still alive, right. I think she died a couple

478
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.960
<v Speaker 2>of years later. But and that's the sort of the

479
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.920
<v Speaker 2>brilliant thing about literature is, you know, it's our cultural DNA.

480
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Even after the writer dies, they're still there.

481
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:51.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, you talk about this this rich legacy,

482
00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.920
<v Speaker 1>this tapestry of you know, the work of queer artists

483
00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:03.119
<v Speaker 1>and queer writers, and it is it's so rich, and

484
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:12.559
<v Speaker 1>it makes me sad because you know, there used to

485
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:18.519
<v Speaker 1>be a time when the queer community at large, all

486
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:25.119
<v Speaker 1>the letters, you know, we had more of a community,

487
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:28.400
<v Speaker 1>We were able to lean on each other more, we

488
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:31.200
<v Speaker 1>were all in the same gang as it were. And

489
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:35.319
<v Speaker 1>I feel like now, and you know, there are obvious,

490
00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:38.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, exceptions, There always has been, because you know,

491
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:41.359
<v Speaker 1>racism has always been a thing. Misogyny has always been

492
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:46.240
<v Speaker 1>a thing. But I feel like more so now, the infighting,

493
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:53.039
<v Speaker 1>the way we just eat our own, you know, it's

494
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:58.079
<v Speaker 1>we have to. And I guess it's because it's been

495
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:08.079
<v Speaker 1>easier put in italics in air quotes for a couple

496
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:12.920
<v Speaker 1>of decades, that we don't feel the need to have

497
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.759
<v Speaker 1>to lean on each other as much. You were able

498
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.200
<v Speaker 1>to have a little bit more autonomy. You know, we

499
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:23.039
<v Speaker 1>don't need to all gather in the hole in the

500
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:27.759
<v Speaker 1>wall gay bar, the lesbians and the queer men and

501
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.519
<v Speaker 1>the trans folks and the drag queens, because you know,

502
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.240
<v Speaker 1>the men can go on grinder and ordered dick like

503
00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:37.440
<v Speaker 1>pizza now, you know, so we don't need that. That

504
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.279
<v Speaker 1>whole aspect of community is lost. That's the part that

505
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:45.480
<v Speaker 1>makes me sad that coupled with banning books that are

506
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:49.839
<v Speaker 1>our history, trying to prevent the next generation from learning

507
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:51.799
<v Speaker 1>about where we come from.

508
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.599
<v Speaker 2>It's the one thing, that one thing, that's one thing

509
00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:58.599
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of like interesting to me about I don't

510
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:02.079
<v Speaker 2>know about conversations about book banning and this in the day,

511
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:05.160
<v Speaker 2>in the day of the internet, right it's you know,

512
00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:07.559
<v Speaker 2>like it's really not just these physical books we burn.

513
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:09.559
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like I mean, I mean, like like the

514
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.279
<v Speaker 2>toothpaste is already out of the tube. Like really, you

515
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:14.400
<v Speaker 2>really think you're going to eradicate this, Like I know,

516
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.480
<v Speaker 2>like I feel for uh, queer and marginalized kids in

517
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Red States. I wish I could create a pipeline where

518
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.640
<v Speaker 2>it could just come to Portland, work and where I live,

519
00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>which is very progressive, you know, But I mean, but

520
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:29.720
<v Speaker 2>it's out there, you like, you know, like I mean,

521
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:33.519
<v Speaker 2>do we really think we can just completely erase it?

522
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:35.640
<v Speaker 2>It's it's out there and people will be able to

523
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.920
<v Speaker 2>find if people are determined, they will, they will find

524
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:42.920
<v Speaker 2>their examples and their history. It's just it's just we

525
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:46.200
<v Speaker 2>are you. You said, you know, we we we kind

526
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:48.079
<v Speaker 2>of have had had a period where maybe it felt

527
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:50.079
<v Speaker 2>a little bit easier, and you put that in scare quotes,

528
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:52.480
<v Speaker 2>and I agree. There were some there were protections that

529
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.400
<v Speaker 2>we had coming of age that our forebears didn't have.

530
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:59.279
<v Speaker 2>Certainly James Baldon didn't have them, right, And and also

531
00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:02.160
<v Speaker 2>there was a there's been of visibility. I think with

532
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:06.720
<v Speaker 2>the Internet that has also been it's been problematic in

533
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:09.839
<v Speaker 2>some ways, but also in many ways it's been really profound.

534
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, especially for people growing up in more isolated

535
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>areas where they don't have many role models.

536
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Right.

537
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:19.880
<v Speaker 2>So it's just hard for me to like, you know,

538
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:23.640
<v Speaker 2>like it's it's hard for me to imagine that it's

539
00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:25.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think it's an old fashioned thing to

540
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:27.680
<v Speaker 2>think you're going to ban these books.

541
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:33.200
<v Speaker 1>They're out there exactly there, I say many times on

542
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:37.039
<v Speaker 1>the podcast. You know, it would be a really bad

543
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:41.920
<v Speaker 1>idea young queer people in in small towns if you

544
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:45.200
<v Speaker 1>were to find someone on the Internet that's from a

545
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:48.359
<v Speaker 1>big city with a big library and you know, let

546
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:52.240
<v Speaker 1>them borrow their library card and go on the Libby

547
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:54.400
<v Speaker 1>app and then you have access to all these books.

548
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.160
<v Speaker 1>That would be a really bad idea. You shouldn't do that.

549
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Don't do that.

550
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:01.359
<v Speaker 2>When yeah, yeah, yeah, right right. I mean I'm I'm

551
00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:03.839
<v Speaker 2>a parent. I have three children, they're all in the

552
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.519
<v Speaker 2>early twenties now, but I remember when they were even

553
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:10.240
<v Speaker 2>before they were teenagers, they had access to the Internet,

554
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:13.880
<v Speaker 2>and this idea as parents, this older idea that we

555
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.960
<v Speaker 2>somehow controlled what information they had access to. I mean,

556
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:22.000
<v Speaker 2>that's that was that was ridiculous. They knew everything that

557
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.119
<v Speaker 2>was going on in the world before we did because

558
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:25.799
<v Speaker 2>they were on their phones. I mean, I didn't do

559
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:29.039
<v Speaker 2>a great job of like ty trading my children's exposure

560
00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:31.799
<v Speaker 2>to the you know, to to you know, to the

561
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:34.920
<v Speaker 2>world through the Internet and through their phones. But yeah,

562
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>the kids will figure it out.

563
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:41.039
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, that's as long as there have been kids

564
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:43.519
<v Speaker 1>and parents, there have been kids figuring out ways to

565
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:46.440
<v Speaker 1>sneak to do.

566
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. That's I think we got to hold on to

567
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:53.599
<v Speaker 2>that during this this really vulnerable, hostile period in history

568
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:57.240
<v Speaker 2>to remember that, like we we are still designed to

569
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:01.759
<v Speaker 2>survive under adverse circumstances. We are we are and.

570
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:09.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's in our DNA at this point. Yeah, yeah,

571
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:19.480
<v Speaker 1>you can't stop the beat. So, in addition to your

572
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:25.159
<v Speaker 1>telling of your story and the challenges you met with

573
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:31.679
<v Speaker 1>your marriage, you also had a particularly difficult relationship with

574
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:35.960
<v Speaker 1>your father. That was a very poignant part of the book.

575
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:37.800
<v Speaker 1>Would you mind talking about that a little bit?

576
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:42.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure, thank you for asking about that. I think

577
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:48.320
<v Speaker 2>very fraught relationship with my father, who for most of

578
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:55.199
<v Speaker 2>my life was a pretty pretty lost in his alcoholism.

579
00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:01.000
<v Speaker 2>And he was also very kind of conventionally socialized as

580
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:04.480
<v Speaker 2>a cisgendered male. And so one of my father's big

581
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:09.039
<v Speaker 2>influences life was the influences in life was this cowboy western.

582
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:11.119
<v Speaker 2>It was a film that came out in the nineteen

583
00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:17.719
<v Speaker 2>fifties called Shane and Shane is the original rugged individualists

584
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:22.400
<v Speaker 2>who calls the shots and is celebrated for keeping his

585
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:27.239
<v Speaker 2>secrets from people and doesn't you know, tells everybody that

586
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:28.920
<v Speaker 2>he meets, you know, don't get too attached to me,

587
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.400
<v Speaker 2>because when I leave, I leave and nobody follows me.

588
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:33.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm my own person. I'm not going to get bogged

589
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:37.159
<v Speaker 2>down in the frills of the domestic front. Right. And

590
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Shane comes to this town in the Wyoming Territory and

591
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:44.239
<v Speaker 2>befriends a farmer and his wife and their eight year

592
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:47.599
<v Speaker 2>old son, Joey, and the book is from the perspective

593
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:52.039
<v Speaker 2>of Joey, and uh and yeah, it's just a it's

594
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:55.159
<v Speaker 2>just a it's a camp every campy story about this

595
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:58.360
<v Speaker 2>hyper masculine character. And that was my dad's role model.

596
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.239
<v Speaker 2>That was That was that was who like, who kind

597
00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:03.960
<v Speaker 2>of defined who he was. And when I was eight

598
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.159
<v Speaker 2>or nine years old myself, i'd about eleven o'clock at night.

599
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:09.960
<v Speaker 2>My dad comes up to my bedroom and wakes me

600
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:13.119
<v Speaker 2>up and says, it's on. You've got to see it.

601
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:15.760
<v Speaker 2>The movie Shane is on the is on the late show,

602
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:17.840
<v Speaker 2>so he carries me downstairs, and I was like, this

603
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:21.599
<v Speaker 2>mandatory conscript. He's gonna show me Shane because that's he's

604
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:23.800
<v Speaker 2>giving me a He's giving me a survival strategy, you know,

605
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:25.920
<v Speaker 2>because he knew I was a kid that was bullied

606
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:28.639
<v Speaker 2>a lot, and Shane is the role model of how

607
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:30.920
<v Speaker 2>to fight back because Shane is always pulling out his guns.

608
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:34.079
<v Speaker 2>Whenever anybody pisses him off, right, he just shoots them,

609
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.440
<v Speaker 2>so you know, So that was that was, that was

610
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:38.159
<v Speaker 2>the role model.

611
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:41.400
<v Speaker 1>And you know, and it makes you wonder how much

612
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:44.000
<v Speaker 1>of a role model he was for so many more men,

613
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:45.280
<v Speaker 1>because that's.

614
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, he's definitely a roll model for my dad, because

615
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.719
<v Speaker 2>when I was fourteen, my dad left, you know, my

616
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.119
<v Speaker 2>just in the same way that Shane got on his

617
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:55.119
<v Speaker 2>horse and rode off into the horizon and said, no

618
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.239
<v Speaker 2>one's allowed to follow me. That my dad did that too, right,

619
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.599
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, growing up, I growing up, I

620
00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:06.159
<v Speaker 2>didn't actually make the connection between my dad's script for

621
00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:09.400
<v Speaker 2>his life and Shane, the movie that he worshiped and

622
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.239
<v Speaker 2>loved so much. But I made it later later, it

623
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.239
<v Speaker 2>ends in the memoir. I made it later in life.

624
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:18.559
<v Speaker 2>I realized, Oh, that was his script, that was his justification,

625
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:23.639
<v Speaker 2>that was his rationale for living this life that was

626
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.800
<v Speaker 2>so in so many ways, so disappointing to his sons

627
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:30.599
<v Speaker 2>and his wife because he really just left and didn't

628
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.480
<v Speaker 2>tell us where he was going. Right, So that was

629
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:36.920
<v Speaker 2>the role model. And you know, I struggled with my

630
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:40.880
<v Speaker 2>dad throughout my life, struggled trying to help him get

631
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:45.599
<v Speaker 2>into rehab, and I would not not successfully, right, you know,

632
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:47.599
<v Speaker 2>like he actually is one of those Like when his

633
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.000
<v Speaker 2>death certificate came back when he died about twenty years ago.

634
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:58.400
<v Speaker 2>It said cause of death. It said drinking. When I

635
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:00.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't know you could die from a behavior. I thought

636
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:05.840
<v Speaker 2>it would be some fancy Latin diagnostic word, just one

637
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:06.960
<v Speaker 2>word drinking.

638
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Right, because you hear the phrase drinking himself to death

639
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:15.800
<v Speaker 1>and it feels like a metaphor. But no, you can

640
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:21.840
<v Speaker 1>actually do that. There were a couple of things you

641
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.440
<v Speaker 1>said in regards to your father in the book that like,

642
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:31.519
<v Speaker 1>just let the air out of my sales. The one

643
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:36.599
<v Speaker 1>moment was when you asked him, are you saying that

644
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:42.960
<v Speaker 1>you're choosing the bottle over us? Basically, and he said yeah,

645
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:43.719
<v Speaker 1>I am.

646
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

647
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:49.480
<v Speaker 1>I was just like wow, But it's like the honesty

648
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:54.320
<v Speaker 1>of that. But at the same time, well damn yeah.

649
00:38:54.840 --> 00:39:00.639
<v Speaker 2>Well you know, it's actually it's interestingly interestingly for me

650
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.960
<v Speaker 2>to have to hear you mirror that back, that that

651
00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:06.519
<v Speaker 2>scene from my from my life, because it was at

652
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the same on the one hand, it was so incredibly

653
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:15.159
<v Speaker 2>painful to hear him say that, but on the other hand,

654
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:19.519
<v Speaker 2>it was kind of a gift of liberation because because

655
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:21.920
<v Speaker 2>he was he was kind of saying, you can't rescue me,

656
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:26.360
<v Speaker 2>you gotta let this one go, And it actually did.

657
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:31.000
<v Speaker 2>It freed me up that actually that that scene occurs

658
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:33.239
<v Speaker 2>right in the chapter before my spouse and I decide

659
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:36.280
<v Speaker 2>to get married. I was suddenly freed up to have

660
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.960
<v Speaker 2>other adult relationships. I didn't have to give so much

661
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:42.519
<v Speaker 2>of my psychological real estate to this man who was

662
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:47.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of admittedly kind of lost in his alcoholism. So yeah,

663
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:52.519
<v Speaker 2>like a really a painful moment, but also weirdly kind

664
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:53.760
<v Speaker 2>of a gift, you know. And it's one of those

665
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.280
<v Speaker 2>things too, like when he said the alcohol is more

666
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.639
<v Speaker 2>important than you to me, it wasn't like he was

667
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:03.559
<v Speaker 2>actually telling me something I didn't already into it, right,

668
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the example of his whole life up to

669
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:09.079
<v Speaker 2>that point was that, yes, of course he's always choosing

670
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:14.000
<v Speaker 2>the alcohol over being a sober you know, conversationalist with me.

671
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:14.559
<v Speaker 1>Right.

672
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:18.440
<v Speaker 2>It was only when he was just days from his

673
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:21.880
<v Speaker 2>deathbed that I had a conversation with him sober for

674
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:25.639
<v Speaker 2>the first time in really a very long time. Years

675
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:27.760
<v Speaker 2>went by and I hadn't seen him sober.

676
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:34.119
<v Speaker 1>So and I imagine there had to have been a

677
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:38.519
<v Speaker 1>little bit of hope that by asking the question that

678
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:42.119
<v Speaker 1>would have like awakened something and snapped him out of something.

679
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.159
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, you know, you keep hoping. You know, when

680
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:49.480
<v Speaker 2>you're a kid, you know this whole idea of codependence,

681
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.400
<v Speaker 2>which is such an old fashioned idea. Now I'm really

682
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:56.159
<v Speaker 2>skeptical about it in many ways because if you have

683
00:40:56.199 --> 00:40:58.599
<v Speaker 2>a loved one, if you have a family member who's

684
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:01.840
<v Speaker 2>suffering with a chronic disease, and alcoholism is just a

685
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:03.960
<v Speaker 2>chronic disease. It is not a personal feeling. It's a

686
00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:08.360
<v Speaker 2>chronic disease. But there's a behavioral component to it as well,

687
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:12.440
<v Speaker 2>where some people do kick it right, some people do

688
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:14.599
<v Speaker 2>get into recovery, and so you always hope that your

689
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:18.440
<v Speaker 2>parent will be the one that kicks it right. Mine

690
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:22.079
<v Speaker 2>was not. Mine was not, but it does. It does

691
00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:26.760
<v Speaker 2>give me this incredible appreciation whenever I meet any person

692
00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:29.840
<v Speaker 2>who's a parent, especially a father, who has gone from

693
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:33.360
<v Speaker 2>being an alcoholic to being a recovery I'm like, I'm thrilled.

694
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:37.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm inspired by their example on the gift that they

695
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:38.440
<v Speaker 2>are giving to their children.

696
00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:52.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And the other moment that guided me was I

697
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:55.960
<v Speaker 1>think it was either at the funeral or around that

698
00:41:56.039 --> 00:42:01.199
<v Speaker 1>immediate time, and you were hearing everyone and tell these

699
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:03.960
<v Speaker 1>stories about how much they loved him and how much

700
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.679
<v Speaker 1>they had these affectionate feelings for him, and you had

701
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:10.960
<v Speaker 1>that moment of like, did I love him? I don't

702
00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:12.239
<v Speaker 1>think I did.

703
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, you know, I'm thank you for mentioning that

704
00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:21.559
<v Speaker 2>I had this incredible gift from the universe. A couple

705
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:24.119
<v Speaker 2>of years after my dad died, which is that some

706
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:28.480
<v Speaker 2>of his very good friends from his navy days reached

707
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:30.599
<v Speaker 2>out to me. I'm like you, I'm a junior. I

708
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:32.639
<v Speaker 2>see you've got junior in your name. I'm also I'm

709
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:35.079
<v Speaker 2>named after my dad. So that's another weird gift that

710
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:37.079
<v Speaker 2>he gave me, or that I was given. And so

711
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:39.599
<v Speaker 2>this guy reached out to me and said, hey, I'm

712
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:42.599
<v Speaker 2>looking for a Wayne Scott who served in the Navy

713
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.320
<v Speaker 2>during these years. Is that you or is he in

714
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:48.119
<v Speaker 2>a relationship to you? And I said, well, that was

715
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:51.280
<v Speaker 2>my dad. And the friends didn't know that he had

716
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.159
<v Speaker 2>died because he had fallen out of touch with them,

717
00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:55.559
<v Speaker 2>but I said, yeah, he passed away. Ya da da.

718
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:59.280
<v Speaker 2>They invited me to their reunion. They said, you know what,

719
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.039
<v Speaker 2>we're getting together to reminisce. Why don't you come? You

720
00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:05.800
<v Speaker 2>come in your dad's place. And so I went to

721
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:09.280
<v Speaker 2>this gathering of these four friends of my dad they

722
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:12.400
<v Speaker 2>had known him since he was a teenager, and of

723
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:14.320
<v Speaker 2>course they had a very different relationship with him. They

724
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:18.440
<v Speaker 2>I was the disappointed son, right, but they were the

725
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:21.840
<v Speaker 2>drinking buddies. They were the people who went through young

726
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.400
<v Speaker 2>adulthood with him, and they had nothing but happy, fun

727
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:28.239
<v Speaker 2>memories of him. And it was kind of fun to

728
00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:31.039
<v Speaker 2>realize that, you know what, I actually might have liked

729
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:35.320
<v Speaker 2>him if I hadn't been an economic dependent, like if

730
00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:39.280
<v Speaker 2>I you know, if I hadn't needed to developmentally, you know,

731
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:41.800
<v Speaker 2>in my experience of him, I had needed him to

732
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:44.119
<v Speaker 2>show up in certain ways. But if I had just

733
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:46.679
<v Speaker 2>met him at a bar, actually I might have liked him.

734
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:49.519
<v Speaker 2>I probably would have really enjoyed him. And so it

735
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:56.000
<v Speaker 2>actually expanded my capacity for empathy into his life. I

736
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.760
<v Speaker 2>actually was able to recognize, you know what, he was

737
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.119
<v Speaker 2>a funny, likable, loving man to many many people in

738
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:12.440
<v Speaker 2>his life. He wasn't great with kids, he wasn't yeah, yeah,

739
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:14.360
<v Speaker 2>but I had these and I also had this example,

740
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:17.199
<v Speaker 2>like with these men, they're so gruff and they're all

741
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure Republican. I know many of them. I still

742
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:22.199
<v Speaker 2>keep in touch with many of them. I know they

743
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:26.079
<v Speaker 2>voted for Trump. You know, but they were so kind

744
00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:28.519
<v Speaker 2>to me, and I really think it was because of

745
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:30.920
<v Speaker 2>their connection with my dad. They were kind of like

746
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:35.320
<v Speaker 2>these grandfather grandfathers by proxy, right, My own my own

747
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:40.320
<v Speaker 2>dad wasn't alive to be able to coop over his grandchildren.

748
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:44.320
<v Speaker 2>But they wanted to see pictures of my kids and

749
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:46.800
<v Speaker 2>they and they could and it was and it was

750
00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:49.199
<v Speaker 2>a gift. It was a gift. It was it was

751
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:50.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, like I was like, I was like, okay, well,

752
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.599
<v Speaker 2>I didn't get the the benefit of being able to

753
00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:55.960
<v Speaker 2>see my dad live into his seventies and maybe see

754
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:59.400
<v Speaker 2>if he would have changed. But these men who were

755
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.280
<v Speaker 2>his friends and who knew him, they came into my

756
00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:05.000
<v Speaker 2>life and they could, they could They helped me heal something.

757
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:08.039
<v Speaker 2>You know, they really did help me heal something. And

758
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:10.199
<v Speaker 2>it was from the most unlikely place. You wouldn't think

759
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.559
<v Speaker 2>that these older white guys, Niagara Republicans would be so

760
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:20.199
<v Speaker 2>kind to this, like progressive social worker guy from Portland, Oregon. Right,

761
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:21.960
<v Speaker 2>he's very queer identified.

762
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, And I love how you had described a photograph

763
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:32.239
<v Speaker 1>of your father with his his drinking buddies, and you know,

764
00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:33.880
<v Speaker 1>the picture I got in my head was like this

765
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.880
<v Speaker 1>is kind of home erotic, but beside the point. And

766
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:44.199
<v Speaker 1>when they basically demanded that you take a picture with them,

767
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:47.000
<v Speaker 1>and when you said I was in my father's place,

768
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:48.519
<v Speaker 1>I was just like, oh.

769
00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah. I mean the the the ultimate and unexpected

770
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:59.880
<v Speaker 2>experience of belonging where you never thought you'd belong right.

771
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:02.079
<v Speaker 2>And they had this picture that was taken in the

772
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:04.119
<v Speaker 2>fifties when they were in the service, when they were

773
00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.039
<v Speaker 2>out having a wild night on the town of the

774
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:10.119
<v Speaker 2>four or the five of them standing next to each

775
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:12.320
<v Speaker 2>other with these big shittyat and grins on their place

776
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:14.559
<v Speaker 2>and beers and cigarettes and all that kind of stuff.

777
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.199
<v Speaker 2>And basically what we literally did is we recreated that

778
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:20.800
<v Speaker 2>photo with me in the place where my dad was.

779
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:22.239
<v Speaker 1>That's so cool.

780
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:26.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it was. It was it again. It was

781
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:26.480
<v Speaker 2>a gift.

782
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:32.400
<v Speaker 1>It's like that internet trend of families recreating their childhood photos.

783
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's fun. It's yeah with with with a bunch

784
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:40.239
<v Speaker 2>of older guys. Yeah, there's I love.

785
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:46.239
<v Speaker 1>I love the the way you have with words when

786
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:52.400
<v Speaker 1>you write. It's the book is such an easy read

787
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:56.079
<v Speaker 1>because you have this comfortable voice and you have a wit,

788
00:46:57.199 --> 00:47:02.519
<v Speaker 1>and you know there are things that are just downright funny,

789
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:09.280
<v Speaker 1>like the first thing I had marked. I'm probably not

790
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:13.039
<v Speaker 1>going to find it by the end of the sentence.

791
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:19.480
<v Speaker 1>But you had mentioned when you were exploring being with women,

792
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:22.559
<v Speaker 1>and you said, you know, you wanted to be good

793
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.800
<v Speaker 1>at it, and you had heard about the term going down.

794
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:30.320
<v Speaker 1>I much prefer the word kind of lingus. It sounds

795
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:36.960
<v Speaker 1>like something you would do with a wine taste, I cackled.

796
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:41.320
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you saw the humor in that.

797
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:48.079
<v Speaker 1>Where where would you say that your your humor comes from?

798
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:49.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think I know the answer to this,

799
00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:51.000
<v Speaker 1>But where'd you say your humor comes from?

800
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Hm? Wow? I had thought about that, well, you know,

801
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe just because we were just talking about him. I mean,

802
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:05.039
<v Speaker 2>my dad was hilariously funny, you know, and was very

803
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.880
<v Speaker 2>charming in groups of people, and I always knew that

804
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:11.480
<v Speaker 2>he was funny, you know, and that that that that

805
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.159
<v Speaker 2>was something both my parents put a lot of value

806
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:18.559
<v Speaker 2>on humor and seeing the humorous in life. And then

807
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:23.000
<v Speaker 2>I think that got potentiated when I found myself a

808
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:25.719
<v Speaker 2>member of the queer community, because I think, you know,

809
00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:28.360
<v Speaker 2>gay men and lesbians and queer people, I think they're

810
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:31.599
<v Speaker 2>hilariously funny. They have to be right, you know, like

811
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:36.400
<v Speaker 2>it's their coping mechanism and strategy and and you know,

812
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:38.480
<v Speaker 2>like part of that whole section that you were talking

813
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:41.840
<v Speaker 2>about where the younger version of me has got this

814
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.159
<v Speaker 2>kind of scorecard where he's keeping track of all the

815
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:47.079
<v Speaker 2>different sexual acts he's participated in and what he still

816
00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:49.280
<v Speaker 2>got to do. It's his to do list of sex,

817
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:53.159
<v Speaker 2>which I'm so ashamed of now in retrospect. But that

818
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:56.480
<v Speaker 2>is the way I thought when I was nineteen twenty.

819
00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:00.639
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, not proud, but it's true, true

820
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:06.360
<v Speaker 2>to who I was that you know, uh yeah. It

821
00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.320
<v Speaker 2>also speaks to the limitations of the language and the

822
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:11.599
<v Speaker 2>ways we had of thinking about you know, that meant

823
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:14.360
<v Speaker 2>I was the script I was given about sexuality at

824
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:16.920
<v Speaker 2>that age was that it was a series of accomplishments.

825
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:20.320
<v Speaker 2>It was bases to be run, which is terrible, Which

826
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:22.599
<v Speaker 2>is terrible. I was not given this idea that it

827
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:29.000
<v Speaker 2>I was not given this idea of intimacy, of actual

828
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:34.119
<v Speaker 2>genuine intimacy and how and what sex is really like

829
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:39.480
<v Speaker 2>separate from the pornographies that are offered to us culturally. Right,

830
00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:41.800
<v Speaker 2>And you know, and there's a point where I'm with

831
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:46.159
<v Speaker 2>my spouse and we're going down that path, and I realized,

832
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:49.559
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, that list. I have to forget that

833
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:51.000
<v Speaker 2>list ever existed.

834
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:56.239
<v Speaker 1>You know, And you know, going back to you know,

835
00:49:56.440 --> 00:50:00.519
<v Speaker 1>the role Book of being a Man, It's like, when

836
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:06.159
<v Speaker 1>you think about it, the quote unquote traditional correct way

837
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:10.719
<v Speaker 1>to be a man doesn't really serve them, you know,

838
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:14.639
<v Speaker 1>it definitely doesn't make them ideal partners. You know, you

839
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:19.360
<v Speaker 1>come from this mindset of sex is transactional, sex is

840
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:31.719
<v Speaker 1>something that you win, you know, being emotionally unavailable, showing

841
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:38.119
<v Speaker 1>emotions is considered weak. It's like, you know, there's a

842
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:46.280
<v Speaker 1>whole TikTok genre. I'll call it. This gentleman named Barrett Paul,

843
00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:48.599
<v Speaker 1>and he has this whole thing about why we don't

844
00:50:48.599 --> 00:50:53.760
<v Speaker 1>need straight men, and it's very much that. It's like,

845
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:59.400
<v Speaker 1>if your idea of what makes you a man is

846
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:03.800
<v Speaker 1>in trend in all of these things that don't make

847
00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:07.000
<v Speaker 1>you a great person, yeah, you know, and all the

848
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.760
<v Speaker 1>qualities that we associate with being weak, with being queer,

849
00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:16.599
<v Speaker 1>those are the things that are actually goals. It's like,

850
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:18.360
<v Speaker 1>how do we end up here?

851
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:23.800
<v Speaker 2>Right right? Yeah? Well, it's interesting as you were talking,

852
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:27.599
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking about the way in which the cowboy

853
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:31.199
<v Speaker 2>Shane story, you know, kind of laid the roadmap for

854
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:33.159
<v Speaker 2>my dad, and I think he wanted to lay that

855
00:51:33.239 --> 00:51:38.440
<v Speaker 2>roadmap for me. And you know, Shane is very connected

856
00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:45.239
<v Speaker 2>to the tragic history of Western expansion imperialism. You know,

857
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the story takes place in Wyoming. There is in both

858
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.400
<v Speaker 2>a movie and the book it's based on, there is

859
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:58.360
<v Speaker 2>not a single reference to indigenous people at all. And yet,

860
00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:03.119
<v Speaker 2>of course we know archives and from history that there

861
00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:09.360
<v Speaker 2>had been this forcible, violent erasure of those people, but

862
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:14.400
<v Speaker 2>it's not even mentioned, right, But what is mentioned is

863
00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:17.559
<v Speaker 2>that men have secrets and men protect their secrets, and

864
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:20.320
<v Speaker 2>that is to be celebrated. That a man knows who

865
00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:21.880
<v Speaker 2>he is and that he doesn't have to tell you

866
00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:23.840
<v Speaker 2>anything he doesn't want to tell you, and he gets

867
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:26.159
<v Speaker 2>to white wash and tell what the truth is, and

868
00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:28.599
<v Speaker 2>that truth doesn't have to even acknowledge that you exist.

869
00:52:29.079 --> 00:52:31.800
<v Speaker 2>And so it's interesting to me like having this like

870
00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:35.639
<v Speaker 2>intimate experience with my dad of his abandonment of our family,

871
00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:40.320
<v Speaker 2>his devaluing of family relationships, and then realizing this connects

872
00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:45.599
<v Speaker 2>to these broader forces in history that don't care about community,

873
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:52.159
<v Speaker 2>that only care about power and expansion and control and imperialism, right,

874
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:56.480
<v Speaker 2>and and how much that is that's the roadmap that boys,

875
00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:01.159
<v Speaker 2>espect white boys especially are given or sexual boys are

876
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:06.559
<v Speaker 2>given to their detriment because it doesn't make them happy people.

877
00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:11.320
<v Speaker 1>Right. And you know, if you really think about it,

878
00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:23.760
<v Speaker 1>like male cisgender heterosexuality is more homosexual in that, like

879
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:27.559
<v Speaker 1>they don't really seem to like women, like queer men

880
00:53:27.639 --> 00:53:30.280
<v Speaker 1>like women.

881
00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Right well, having like you know, emotional, playful intimate confidences. Yeah. Yeah.

882
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:45.679
<v Speaker 1>And I always say, you know that all of homophobia

883
00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:51.039
<v Speaker 1>and transphobia is deeply rooted in misogyny because we don't

884
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:53.719
<v Speaker 1>raise boys to be men, we raise them to not

885
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:54.239
<v Speaker 1>be women.

886
00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:57.360
<v Speaker 2>That's that's very wise. I think that's very true.

887
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:05.280
<v Speaker 1>And it's it that battle against anything that is feminine

888
00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:10.039
<v Speaker 1>or considered feminine is like the root of almost all

889
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:11.360
<v Speaker 1>the evils that we have.

890
00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. And our resistance to

891
00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:22.519
<v Speaker 2>women in power, you know, and and you know, like,

892
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:25.199
<v Speaker 2>what is it about this freaking country that we can't

893
00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:27.960
<v Speaker 2>get a woman into the highest office? What you know?

894
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:31.119
<v Speaker 2>What is that about? You know, Like I mean obviously

895
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:37.800
<v Speaker 2>that speaks to how incredibly entrenched in ourselves the cells

896
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:40.719
<v Speaker 2>that make us. It is that we cannot allow a

897
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:42.639
<v Speaker 2>woman to be in that role, and how much better

898
00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:45.920
<v Speaker 2>the world would be if we had that sensibility.

899
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:50.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, and you know, part of that is, you know again,

900
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:57.039
<v Speaker 1>self introspection is not one of those qualities that's nurtured

901
00:54:57.519 --> 00:54:59.639
<v Speaker 1>so right and.

902
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:03.920
<v Speaker 2>And respect and honoring of of people's inner lives, right

903
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:08.239
<v Speaker 2>and feelings and vulnerabilities. That truly the stuff that makes

904
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:11.000
<v Speaker 2>us humans and not ken dolls.

905
00:55:11.679 --> 00:55:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Right, hold on one second, I'm.

906
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, that's okay.

907
00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:23.639
<v Speaker 1>What were we saying.

908
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:28.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, We're just talking about talking about Western imperialist expansion.

909
00:55:28.679 --> 00:55:30.920
<v Speaker 2>It's connection to the we're talking about the big stuff.

910
00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:32.280
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about big ideas.

911
00:55:34.119 --> 00:55:36.400
<v Speaker 1>I love how that tends to happen on this show.

912
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:41.559
<v Speaker 1>It's like we go from so my book to well

913
00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:46.760
<v Speaker 1>the meaning of life. Yeah, yeah, but one could argue

914
00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:50.440
<v Speaker 1>that in your story those two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

915
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Please and thank you.

916
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:54.719
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you, thank you for reading.

917
00:55:54.440 --> 00:55:59.480
<v Speaker 1>It, because yeah, your story is really, of course, it

918
00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:02.320
<v Speaker 1>is yours story, but it is also an exploration of

919
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:09.519
<v Speaker 1>the dynamics of relationships, the personal journeys of self discovery,

920
00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:19.400
<v Speaker 1>family dynamics. Like there's just so many big capital letter

921
00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:23.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, subjects that are touched on in your story,

922
00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:29.800
<v Speaker 1>and I'm grateful that I got to read it.

923
00:56:30.519 --> 00:56:32.920
<v Speaker 2>That's so lovely to hear. Thank you so much.

924
00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:37.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you, and I definitely want to say that

925
00:56:37.239 --> 00:56:39.119
<v Speaker 1>it has been a pleasure talking to you.

926
00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Likewise, you're very skilled at putting people at ease.

927
00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:47.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh well, thank you. I'm very glad to hear that.

928
00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:54.639
<v Speaker 1>So if we wanted to learn more about you and

929
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:58.199
<v Speaker 1>where to purchase the book, where would we go?

930
00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:02.440
<v Speaker 2>You can go to my website which is Wayne scott

931
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Wrights dot com and that will lead you to the

932
00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:11.079
<v Speaker 2>website of Black Lawrence Press, which is the small independent

933
00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:14.519
<v Speaker 2>press that published and published the memoir and has been

934
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:16.960
<v Speaker 2>wonderful to me. And we should always of course support

935
00:57:17.320 --> 00:57:19.880
<v Speaker 2>the little guys, you know, the small independent presses. So

936
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:23.000
<v Speaker 2>if people buy directly from Black Lawrence, that would be

937
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:27.320
<v Speaker 2>the most amazing thing. They have been. They knew from

938
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:29.960
<v Speaker 2>when I from I when I first found them. They

939
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:33.480
<v Speaker 2>they they recognized that it was such a vulnerable, intimate story,

940
00:57:33.559 --> 00:57:36.039
<v Speaker 2>and they were really clearer to me that they were

941
00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:39.039
<v Speaker 2>going to protect it, you know, and they were gonna

942
00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:40.760
<v Speaker 2>be they were going to be they were gonna be

943
00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:42.920
<v Speaker 2>careful with me as I kind of moved into this

944
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:47.159
<v Speaker 2>kind of capitalist commercial economy of book buying, that they

945
00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:50.000
<v Speaker 2>were gonna be protective and I and I always appreciated

946
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:50.960
<v Speaker 2>that about them.

947
00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:53.000
<v Speaker 1>I love it. I love it, and we will make

948
00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:56.519
<v Speaker 1>sure to include that information in the notes of this episode,

949
00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:02.360
<v Speaker 1>because so the book is currently available, it is okay, Yeah,

950
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:05.159
<v Speaker 1>so make sure that everyone within the sound of our

951
00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:09.519
<v Speaker 1>voice gets your own copy of this book. It is

952
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:13.400
<v Speaker 1>a wonderful, wonderful story. The title of the book is

953
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:18.119
<v Speaker 1>The Maps They gave Us One Marriage Reimagined. I you know,

954
00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:23.079
<v Speaker 1>it's not often that I gush over a book. You know,

955
00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:27.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that. You know, I'm always glad when it's

956
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:34.239
<v Speaker 1>a good read. You know, I love I love authentic stories.

957
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:39.360
<v Speaker 1>I love wit, I love humor, I love honesty, and

958
00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:42.880
<v Speaker 1>all of that is contained in this story. And you

959
00:58:42.920 --> 00:58:47.920
<v Speaker 1>should be very proud. One more quick question. Yeah, if

960
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:51.880
<v Speaker 1>there was going to be a movie, who would play you?

961
00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:55.920
<v Speaker 2>I actually know the answer to this immediately because my

962
00:58:56.239 --> 00:58:58.280
<v Speaker 2>in my writer's group we did this. We were all

963
00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.000
<v Speaker 2>writing books, memoirs, and we all had to figure out

964
00:59:01.000 --> 00:59:03.639
<v Speaker 2>who was going to play us. I think Noah Reed

965
00:59:03.800 --> 00:59:07.880
<v Speaker 2>would play me. From Shit's Creek, Shit's Creek. Remember David

966
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:09.800
<v Speaker 2>David's boyfriend in Shit's Creek.

967
00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, okay, okay, nice, So did you okay? All right?

968
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:18.960
<v Speaker 1>So do you have a dreamcast for anyone else?

969
00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:19.639
<v Speaker 2>Hm?

970
00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:20.679
<v Speaker 1>Hm.

971
00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:27.000
<v Speaker 2>My spouse I think would be played over There are

972
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:29.199
<v Speaker 2>in different generations, but I always think of Lord Laura

973
00:59:29.320 --> 00:59:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Dern when I think of my spouse. Okay, different generationally

974
00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:37.159
<v Speaker 2>from Noah Reed, but you know, I think about the

975
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:39.639
<v Speaker 2>span of her career. I could see Laura Laura Dern

976
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:43.079
<v Speaker 2>in that role and then actually the couple's counselor the

977
00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:46.000
<v Speaker 2>brilliant couple's counselor that we went to Liney, who's a

978
00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:48.639
<v Speaker 2>big character in the book. She would be played by

979
00:59:48.719 --> 00:59:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Alexandra Billings. Do you know how? Yes, I remember, I am

980
00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:56.559
<v Speaker 2>I right. Wouldn't that be like you know, like, so, Alexander,

981
00:59:56.599 --> 00:59:59.199
<v Speaker 2>if you're out there, you know this book is waiting

982
00:59:59.239 --> 00:59:59.920
<v Speaker 2>for you. This is the.

983
01:00:01.840 --> 01:00:05.280
<v Speaker 1>Part of me thinks that Alexander Billings listens to this show.

984
01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:10.039
<v Speaker 1>So I think you might have done something and I

985
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:12.400
<v Speaker 1>did not. I would not have thought of that when

986
01:00:12.440 --> 01:00:13.840
<v Speaker 1>reading the book. But now that you say it, yes,

987
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:14.599
<v Speaker 1>that is the right choice.

988
01:00:14.679 --> 01:00:16.719
<v Speaker 2>Yes, So day I got it all cast out. I

989
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:18.400
<v Speaker 2>got it all cast out. Somebody so I'm Larady from

990
01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:20.559
<v Speaker 2>highlowig does need to give me a call. I'll pick

991
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:20.880
<v Speaker 2>it up.

992
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Well now, I can't wait for the movie, right, So,

993
01:00:26.960 --> 01:00:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Wayne Scott, thank you so much for joining being here

994
01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:32.280
<v Speaker 1>at the Full Circle table.

995
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:34.639
<v Speaker 2>You are delight, as are you.

996
01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, and I have a feeling this is not

997
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:40.320
<v Speaker 1>going to be the last time we sit and chat,

998
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:44.440
<v Speaker 1>oh hope. So thank you very much and you have.

999
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.920
<v Speaker 2>A wonderful day, you too, you too.

1000
01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Take care. Full Circle is a Never Scurred Productions podcast

1001
01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:55.599
<v Speaker 1>hosted by Charles Tyson Junior and Mark the Madrigal, Produced

1002
01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:59.239
<v Speaker 1>and edited by Never Scurred Executive Produced by Charles Tyson

1003
01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:02.159
<v Speaker 1>Junior and Mark the Madrigal. Our theme in music is

1004
01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:05.840
<v Speaker 1>by the jingle Berries. All names, pictures, music, audio, and

1005
01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:09.239
<v Speaker 1>video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of their

1006
01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:11.000
<v Speaker 1>respective copyright holders.