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Speaker 1: Did you know that there are blasphemy laws on the
Speaker 1: books in this country? Now? I always think about like
Speaker 1: the blue laws. You know, you can't have an ice
Speaker 1: cream cone in your pocket on a Sunday and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, and you know, the more benign stuff that
Speaker 1: doesn't really get noticed. But no, no, there are actual
Speaker 1: blasphemy laws. This is not an Islamic state. This is
Speaker 1: the United States. Wait a minute, I'm going to talk
Speaker 1: about this and a whole lot more with a friend
Speaker 1: of mine and somebody who is the regional government Affairs
Speaker 1: manager at FFRAF, the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Hey, Mickey Dollins,
Speaker 1: good to see you, Mickey.
Speaker 3: Seth, great to be on the show.
Speaker 1: Tell me what a regional government Affairs manager is and does,
Speaker 1: would you?
Speaker 4: Well, I'm sure many people are familiar with Freedom from
Speaker 4: Religion Foundations work. We work to educate society on nontheistic issues.
Speaker 4: We uphold the constitutional principle of the separation of state
Speaker 4: and church. And on the C four side, the policy
Speaker 4: team that I'm part of, we advocate for commis sence legislation.
Speaker 4: We're actually on the offense of this year, and we
Speaker 4: also fight a ton of bad legislation.
Speaker 3: Seth.
Speaker 4: I know, being from Oklahoma, you're very familiar with all
Speaker 4: the bad theocratic legislation. But it's not just here, it's
Speaker 4: across the entire nation.
Speaker 1: Yea, my home state like Texas, Tennessee, Louisiana and others
Speaker 1: are just constantly trying to ram the Ten Commandments into
Speaker 1: public institutions. And so if they get defeated, then they
Speaker 1: go back and they kind of rewrite the proposal or
Speaker 1: bill and try again and try again.
Speaker 3: Just will not go away.
Speaker 1: I know FLFRAF has been involved in some of the
Speaker 1: Ten Commandment stuff, right.
Speaker 3: Oh, you're exactly right.
Speaker 4: Ten Commandments is a popular one. Inserting school chaplains and
Speaker 4: replacement of trained mental health professionals is a big one.
Speaker 4: But what this ultimately gets at is chipping away long
Speaker 4: established Supreme Court ruling centered around the Establishment Clause. And
Speaker 4: so in a proactive way, we've taken an offensive approach
Speaker 4: in codifying those long standing Supreme Court precedents centered around
Speaker 4: the Establishment Clause, and we've written a piece of legislation
Speaker 4: that would codify those into state law.
Speaker 1: The establishment clause. Congress shall make no law respecting the
Speaker 1: establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise.
Speaker 3: There.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of Christian nationalists like to grab
Speaker 1: the free exercise. Well, we're free then to have a
Speaker 1: Christian nation. It's a weird bending. I know Andrew Seidel,
Speaker 1: constitutional attorney, has done a lot of writing about this
Speaker 1: kind of thing. You've probably heard that as well, Like
Speaker 1: the free exercise means, hey, if all of our politicians
Speaker 1: or most of them profess Christianity, then we're Christian.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that seems to be the talking points going around,
Speaker 4: especially a lot of red states. For example, there's a
Speaker 4: handful of states that have resolutions that declare their state
Speaker 4: is under the kingship of Jesus Christ, that they derive
Speaker 4: their moralities from the New Testament. Unfortunately, this is exclusionary
Speaker 4: to not just people with minority religions, but those who
Speaker 4: have no faith at all, who do not practice a religion,
Speaker 4: who are non religious, which is about one third of
Speaker 4: the total population of America. And so we know that
Speaker 4: the best way to protect people's religious freedoms is to
Speaker 4: keep government out of religion and religion out of government.
Speaker 4: And we have an incredibly talented staff across the board
Speaker 4: at FFRF who help uphold those constitutional principles.
Speaker 1: It's always fun to talk about the Ten Commandments in
Speaker 1: this Christian nationalist notion that they belong in our public institutions.
Speaker 1: And so are you like, fine, okay, well off the cough.
Speaker 1: Can you name them? And statistically most believers can't name
Speaker 1: even so I think it's mostly about marketing territory. Tell
Speaker 1: me about k pop. What in the world is k pop?
Speaker 1: What's that about?
Speaker 4: We created k pop, which is an acronym for keep
Speaker 4: proselytizing out of public schools. And this is really unique
Speaker 4: in that we're taking an offensive approach, and this is
Speaker 4: a collaborative effort with the American Atheist and the American
Speaker 4: Humanists Association, and we wanted to be able to present
Speaker 4: lawmakers an opportunity to uphold Supreme Court precedent centered around
Speaker 4: the Establishment Clause to protect religious neutrality in government, especially
Speaker 4: in public schools.
Speaker 1: Some of these attempts are pretty sneaky. I'm a big
Speaker 1: fan of Katherine Stewart, journalist and author, and she wrote
Speaker 1: about the Good News clubs that were around years and
Speaker 1: years ago, and where they kind of sneak in and say, hey, kids,
Speaker 1: we've got some fun stuff going on after school, and
Speaker 1: the parents had no idea that beneath all the fun
Speaker 1: and activity and coloring books and snacks and everything else,
Speaker 1: there was a Christian nationalist agenda. I'm guessing you I
Speaker 1: know FFRF has, but I'm speaking to you personally. You've
Speaker 1: seen some of these I'll call them shady. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're not exactly fourth right. In some cases, they're just
Speaker 1: kind of sneaking and saying, hey, this will be great
Speaker 1: for the kids.
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Every year, there are hundreds of theocratic bills that are
Speaker 4: introduced in states around the country, and I'd say about
Speaker 4: seventy percent of those are focused at the elementary and
Speaker 4: school aged level. The reason being because children are young, impressionable,
Speaker 4: and they have vulnerable minds, and they assume that if
Speaker 4: they can indoctrinate them at a young age, then they
Speaker 4: can force upon them a very narrow religious perspective that's
Speaker 4: rooted in Christian nationalism.
Speaker 1: Do you probably saw the recent headlines about the National
Speaker 1: Prayer Breakfast, which why is our government hosting? You know,
Speaker 1: why for decades has the United States had a National
Speaker 1: Prayer Breakfast? And of course they're not doing Islamic prayers
Speaker 1: or Hindu prayers. It's always, you know, Christian prayers. And
Speaker 1: then Trump weaponizes it to essentially go after his political enemies.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: people say, can you talk religion instead of politics? But
Speaker 1: the two you cannot extricate them. Right, if you're talking
Speaker 1: about religion, certainly Christian nationalism, you're talking politics, right.
Speaker 3: That's true.
Speaker 4: And Mark dan is FFRF's federal policy director, and he
Speaker 4: did an incredible job of leading faith coalitions and non
Speaker 4: religious coalitions into signing on to a letter that really
Speaker 4: laid out what the National Prayer Breakfast has become, which
Speaker 4: is a platform for maga Christianity to basically give Trump
Speaker 4: an additional platform to talk just about everything except the
Speaker 4: fundamentals of Christianity.
Speaker 3: We heard some remarks in.
Speaker 4: That he said he quote couldn't see how anyone could
Speaker 4: call themselves a democrat and be a Christian and YadA YadA,
Speaker 4: And so we were very successful in getting a lot
Speaker 4: of congressional members to not attend the Prayer Breakfast. We
Speaker 4: worked close with Congressman Jared Huffman, who did a great
Speaker 4: job in explaining why this isn't a traditional faith based initiative,
Speaker 4: but more so of a political ideology that's been weaponized
Speaker 4: to amplify megapolitics.
Speaker 3: And so we are.
Speaker 4: Seeing the we're seeing the enrollment and the attendance for
Speaker 4: that drop off because people.
Speaker 3: Are becoming aware of what it really is. And we
Speaker 3: were happy to see that maybe one day it.
Speaker 1: Will be like the Milania movie and be a few
Speaker 1: people who go and.
Speaker 4: Or people are on Craigslist pay others fifty dollars to
Speaker 4: attend the National Prayer Breakfast.
Speaker 1: Fail at the box. Let the Prayer Breakfast fail at
Speaker 1: the box. Office. That's all. That's all I'm saying. I
Speaker 1: want to get into trying to protect children from anti science,
Speaker 1: anti vax you know, the anti medice and initiatives that
Speaker 1: are going on. Can you. I mean, tell me about
Speaker 1: some of the politicians at whatever level, local, state, federal,
Speaker 1: who are on the front lines for secular activism. I'm
Speaker 1: always seeing Jamie Raskin out there, but I mean, are
Speaker 1: there some people out there who have impressed you?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: There are so many secular lawmakers are becoming more and
Speaker 4: more outspoken. At the congressional level, we have the Freethought
Speaker 4: Caucus that continues to grow, and they're elevating their platform
Speaker 4: to raise serious concerns. Many states still have religious exemptions
Speaker 4: for child protection laws, and we believe that religious beliefs
Speaker 4: does not override a child's right to safety and health.
Speaker 4: And that's why we've authored the CHARM Act. It stands
Speaker 4: for Children Have a Right to Medicine Act, and this
Speaker 4: bill would repeal those religious exemptions for parents who don't
Speaker 4: get the necessary medical treatment for their children when they're sick.
Speaker 4: For example, there was a case innic Wisconsin in two
Speaker 4: thousand and.
Speaker 3: Eight where a child had diabetes.
Speaker 4: The family refused to get medical treatment because their congregation
Speaker 4: at their church was praying the diabetes away, and unfortunately,
Speaker 4: that little girl passed away. And that's just one of many,
Speaker 4: many examples that we have, these just terrible tragedies where
Speaker 4: children aren't getting the right to medicine, they're not getting
Speaker 4: the treatment they need because of because of religious beliefs,
Speaker 4: and the parents who fail to get their children the
Speaker 4: treatment are exempted from any type of penalty or law
Speaker 4: because of the religious exemptions.
Speaker 3: And we want to repeal that.
Speaker 4: We want to make sure that first and foremost children
Speaker 4: have access to health and that they can stay safe
Speaker 4: even in religious environments.
Speaker 1: I'll continue with Mickey Dollins, the Regional Government Affairs manager
Speaker 1: for the Freedom from Religion Foundation. To second, I appreciate
Speaker 1: you listening so very much. I continue speaking here with
Speaker 1: Mickey Dollands is the regional Government Affairs manager for the
Speaker 1: Freedom From Religion Foundation. I mentioned at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the conversation blasphemy laws, so we should talk about that now.
Speaker 1: I used to think this was just blue law stuff
Speaker 1: tucked away ignored.
Speaker 4: No, Mickey, well, first, so everyone's aware of blasphemy is
Speaker 4: when someone is critical or disrespectful of one's religion or
Speaker 4: someone's deity, and in other countries this is punishable by death.
Speaker 4: We've been working with the ex Muslims of North America
Speaker 4: to get lawmakers to repeal the five remaining blasphemy laws
Speaker 4: on the books in the United States of America. You
Speaker 4: may wonder, like, why are these still around? Well, I
Speaker 4: think Salem, Massachusetts back during the witch trials. Back then,
Speaker 4: blasphemy was punishable by a hot iron rod stuck straight
Speaker 4: through the tongue. At one point, it was punishable by drowning,
Speaker 4: of course, and so while it's unenforceable today, it is
Speaker 4: still symbolic, especially for people who are members of ex
Speaker 4: Muslims of North America, who let many who have escaped
Speaker 4: countries where they could be punished by death for being blasphemous.
Speaker 4: You look at this state of politics now and you say, hey,
Speaker 4: we still have blasphemy laws on the books in five states.
Speaker 4: We don't want to go down that road. So it's
Speaker 4: best it's just to get them repealed right off the books.
Speaker 1: I'm reminded of the license plate controversies. Wasn't all that
Speaker 1: long ago somebody wanted to put atheist or godless or
Speaker 1: something on a license plate, and they were rejected, and
Speaker 1: it became like this big, big thing you're talking about blasphemy,
Speaker 1: you know, with Trump's memorandum saying that they were going
Speaker 1: to go after anybody in anything that was anti Christian,
Speaker 1: anti American, anti capitalists. So I guess Jesus is a
Speaker 1: free market capitalist. But I'm like, okay, well, what's anti
Speaker 1: Christian mean? Doesn't mean anybody critical of Christianity because that
Speaker 1: includes moderate progressive Christians going after Christian nationalism. Right, So
Speaker 1: this I don't know if it's legally enforceable, but it
Speaker 1: certainly sets the tone anti American, anti capitalist, anti Christian.
Speaker 3: Could be me right exactly. An ambiguity is the point.
Speaker 4: The idea is to chill free speech, to make people
Speaker 4: less braverable to be outspoken. And you do that by
Speaker 4: putting out these ambiguous executive orders that no one can
Speaker 4: really pin down, but they could use them in any
Speaker 4: way they want if the circumstance.
Speaker 1: Arise, Anything else on your plate before I direct everybody,
Speaker 1: because I want them to support FFRF and these initiatives
Speaker 1: as well, But anything else that we need to know about,
Speaker 1: at least here on the front.
Speaker 4: Well, the Great thing about the k Pop Act or
Speaker 4: the Student Cycler Bill of Rights and the CHARM Act
Speaker 4: Children have a Right to Medicine is that this is
Speaker 4: model legislation. And for anyone who's listening to this, you
Speaker 4: have a state senator, you have a state representative, reach
Speaker 4: out to us at f frfaction dot org. We can
Speaker 4: connect you with the model language. We can give you
Speaker 4: our toolkits that will assist your lawmakers in introducing this language.
Speaker 4: And we will be better off by having these Supreme
Speaker 4: Court precedents codified in the state law. So unfortunately, in
Speaker 4: the kind of likely event that they are overturned or
Speaker 4: continue to be chopped away at you will in your
Speaker 4: state retain those religious freedoms and protections at the state level.
Speaker 4: So reach out to us at f frfaction dot org.
Speaker 4: We'd love to give you the toolkits and assist your
Speaker 4: lawmakers in introducing this legislation.
Speaker 1: I read an article recently about how autocrats and oligarchs
Speaker 1: and even tyrants will sometimes provide a way for people
Speaker 1: to rant and be exasperated social media. I guess, but
Speaker 1: they lock off their opportunities to actually affect change.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Oh, let them whine and that'll keep them busy and
Speaker 1: then will actually lock off any opportunities for them to
Speaker 1: affect positive change, to resist. And yet FFRF is providing
Speaker 1: an avenue for that. So instead of just sitting around
Speaker 1: cursing the darkness, wondering how bad it's going to get,
Speaker 1: we have to get in the game. We have to
Speaker 1: reach out, We have to engage our elected officials. So
Speaker 1: I know some people who are even running for office.
Speaker 1: This has motivated them. You've probably seen that as well.
Speaker 1: You've seen a lot of folks who've been watching the
Speaker 1: news and they decided, screw this, I'm going.
Speaker 4: To get in the game right absolutely, and I would
Speaker 4: encourage many secular people to also run for office.
Speaker 3: In states like Oklahoma and Texas.
Speaker 4: Many may assume just because they're non religious, they're automatically
Speaker 4: disqualified from being a competitor for public office. That's absolutely
Speaker 4: not true. Your constituents are going to care more about
Speaker 4: how hard you work for them during the week than
Speaker 4: what you do on Sunday morning. And so if you
Speaker 4: want to run for office, you definitely should. If you
Speaker 4: just want to advocate, keep calling, keep emailing. You've seen
Speaker 4: how this is making a difference, so continue speaking up.
Speaker 4: If you live near a capital, you can attend committee hearings,
Speaker 4: you can testify, live in some states. There's so many
Speaker 4: opportunities for you to use your voice. And that's why
Speaker 4: we wanted to empower you with these model legislations that
Speaker 4: you can take to your state elected's and ask them
Speaker 4: to pass, and we will be right there to help
Speaker 4: you every step of the way.
Speaker 1: Hey, I know we're supposed to be done, but I
Speaker 1: got to ask this cynical question. Does it make a
Speaker 1: difference now if I write a letter or make a
Speaker 1: phone call? Don't they have some menion and they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: thanks for all and click and then they just go
Speaker 1: do whatever they want to do anyway.
Speaker 4: You know a lot of people think that, and there
Speaker 4: are some lawmakers who are going to ignore it. But
Speaker 4: I have people that I have talked to in the
Speaker 4: past who have just been very consistent and reaching out
Speaker 4: to those lawmakers, having in person meetings, calling and hey,
Speaker 4: if ultimately you continue to get a brick wall, you
Speaker 4: may be the one to run against them. So and
Speaker 4: also I would differentiate between the federal level and the
Speaker 4: state level. There's so many bad things happening at the
Speaker 4: federal level. And yes, you can should continue to call
Speaker 4: your congress person and you're us senator, but do not
Speaker 4: neglect what's happening at your own state level, in your
Speaker 4: own local municipality, at your own school board, because that's
Speaker 4: a great place not only to start if you're going
Speaker 4: to run for office, but also in a great place
Speaker 4: to start when reaching out to those who are elected,
Speaker 4: to amplify your voice, to be your voice in the
Speaker 4: decision making process. And at the state level, it's much
Speaker 4: more easy to get in person meetings, meet at a diner,
Speaker 4: you can meet at a coffee shop, or even at
Speaker 4: their office. But don't give up. We've got a lot
Speaker 4: of resources at f frf Action dot org that can
Speaker 4: help you and assist you in being effective when it
Speaker 4: comes to reaching out to your lawmakers.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the school boards. There's a
Speaker 1: concentrated effort to actually stack the school boards with Christian nationalists.
Speaker 1: They are well funded organizations doing that. So becoming a
Speaker 1: member of a school board, I mean that's fantastic. Mickey
Speaker 1: Dolland's regional government Affairs manager for fr F and the
Speaker 1: f FRF Action Fund f fr Faction dot Org. I'd
Speaker 1: say you're doing the Lord's work. But I don't think
Speaker 1: that's how I want to phrase that, Mickey. But it's
Speaker 1: been a joy to speak to you and I appreciate
Speaker 1: you being out there fighting the good fight.
Speaker 3: Man, you too, Seth. Thank you.
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