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<v Speaker 1>This is just a bonus broadcast this week runs about

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<v Speaker 1>twenty minutes with a very special guest from f fr

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<v Speaker 1>F and Joy.

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<v Speaker 2>The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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<v Speaker 2>an idea.

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<v Speaker 3>The population of atheists this country is going through.

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<v Speaker 2>The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If

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<v Speaker 2>I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not.

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<v Speaker 1>Because I put my hand on a book and made

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<v Speaker 1>a wish.

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<v Speaker 2>And working together for a more rational world.

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<v Speaker 1>Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.

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<v Speaker 1>Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.

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<v Speaker 2>Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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<v Speaker 2>Thinking Atheist podcast, hosted by Seth Andrews.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you know that there are blasphemy laws on the

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<v Speaker 1>books in this country? Now? I always think about like

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<v Speaker 1>the blue laws. You know, you can't have an ice

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<v Speaker 1>cream cone in your pocket on a Sunday and stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like that, and you know, the more benign stuff that

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't really get noticed. But no, no, there are actual

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<v Speaker 1>blasphemy laws. This is not an Islamic state. This is

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<v Speaker 1>the United States. Wait a minute, I'm going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about this and a whole lot more with a friend

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<v Speaker 1>of mine and somebody who is the regional government Affairs

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<v Speaker 1>manager at FFRAF, the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Hey, Mickey Dollins,

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<v Speaker 1>good to see you, Mickey.

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<v Speaker 3>Seth, great to be on the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me what a regional government Affairs manager is and does,

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<v Speaker 1>would you?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I'm sure many people are familiar with Freedom from

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<v Speaker 4>Religion Foundations work. We work to educate society on nontheistic issues.

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<v Speaker 4>We uphold the constitutional principle of the separation of state

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<v Speaker 4>and church. And on the C four side, the policy

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<v Speaker 4>team that I'm part of, we advocate for commis sence legislation.

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<v Speaker 4>We're actually on the offense of this year, and we

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<v Speaker 4>also fight a ton of bad legislation.

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<v Speaker 3>Seth.

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<v Speaker 4>I know, being from Oklahoma, you're very familiar with all

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<v Speaker 4>the bad theocratic legislation. But it's not just here, it's

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<v Speaker 4>across the entire nation.

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<v Speaker 1>Yea, my home state like Texas, Tennessee, Louisiana and others

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<v Speaker 1>are just constantly trying to ram the Ten Commandments into

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<v Speaker 1>public institutions. And so if they get defeated, then they

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<v Speaker 1>go back and they kind of rewrite the proposal or

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<v Speaker 1>bill and try again and try again.

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<v Speaker 3>Just will not go away.

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<v Speaker 1>I know FLFRAF has been involved in some of the

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<v Speaker 1>Ten Commandment stuff, right.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, you're exactly right.

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<v Speaker 4>Ten Commandments is a popular one. Inserting school chaplains and

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<v Speaker 4>replacement of trained mental health professionals is a big one.

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<v Speaker 4>But what this ultimately gets at is chipping away long

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<v Speaker 4>established Supreme Court ruling centered around the Establishment Clause. And

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<v Speaker 4>so in a proactive way, we've taken an offensive approach

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<v Speaker 4>in codifying those long standing Supreme Court precedents centered around

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<v Speaker 4>the Establishment Clause, and we've written a piece of legislation

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<v Speaker 4>that would codify those into state law.

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<v Speaker 1>The establishment clause. Congress shall make no law respecting the

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<v Speaker 1>establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise.

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<v Speaker 3>There.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a lot of Christian nationalists like to grab

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<v Speaker 1>the free exercise. Well, we're free then to have a

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<v Speaker 1>Christian nation. It's a weird bending. I know Andrew Seidel,

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<v Speaker 1>constitutional attorney, has done a lot of writing about this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of thing. You've probably heard that as well, Like

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<v Speaker 1>the free exercise means, hey, if all of our politicians

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<v Speaker 1>or most of them profess Christianity, then we're Christian.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that seems to be the talking points going around,

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<v Speaker 4>especially a lot of red states. For example, there's a

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<v Speaker 4>handful of states that have resolutions that declare their state

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<v Speaker 4>is under the kingship of Jesus Christ, that they derive

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<v Speaker 4>their moralities from the New Testament. Unfortunately, this is exclusionary

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<v Speaker 4>to not just people with minority religions, but those who

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<v Speaker 4>have no faith at all, who do not practice a religion,

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<v Speaker 4>who are non religious, which is about one third of

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<v Speaker 4>the total population of America. And so we know that

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<v Speaker 4>the best way to protect people's religious freedoms is to

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<v Speaker 4>keep government out of religion and religion out of government.

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<v Speaker 4>And we have an incredibly talented staff across the board

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<v Speaker 4>at FFRF who help uphold those constitutional principles.

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<v Speaker 1>It's always fun to talk about the Ten Commandments in

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<v Speaker 1>this Christian nationalist notion that they belong in our public institutions.

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<v Speaker 1>And so are you like, fine, okay, well off the cough.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you name them? And statistically most believers can't name

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<v Speaker 1>even so I think it's mostly about marketing territory. Tell

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<v Speaker 1>me about k pop. What in the world is k pop?

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<v Speaker 1>What's that about?

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<v Speaker 4>We created k pop, which is an acronym for keep

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<v Speaker 4>proselytizing out of public schools. And this is really unique

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<v Speaker 4>in that we're taking an offensive approach, and this is

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<v Speaker 4>a collaborative effort with the American Atheist and the American

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<v Speaker 4>Humanists Association, and we wanted to be able to present

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<v Speaker 4>lawmakers an opportunity to uphold Supreme Court precedent centered around

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<v Speaker 4>the Establishment Clause to protect religious neutrality in government, especially

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<v Speaker 4>in public schools.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of these attempts are pretty sneaky. I'm a big

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<v Speaker 1>fan of Katherine Stewart, journalist and author, and she wrote

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<v Speaker 1>about the Good News clubs that were around years and

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, and where they kind of sneak in and say, hey, kids,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got some fun stuff going on after school, and

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<v Speaker 1>the parents had no idea that beneath all the fun

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<v Speaker 1>and activity and coloring books and snacks and everything else,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a Christian nationalist agenda. I'm guessing you I

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<v Speaker 1>know FFRF has, but I'm speaking to you personally. You've

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<v Speaker 1>seen some of these I'll call them shady. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not exactly fourth right. In some cases, they're just

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<v Speaker 1>kind of sneaking and saying, hey, this will be great

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<v Speaker 1>for the kids.

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<v Speaker 3>Right. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Every year, there are hundreds of theocratic bills that are

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<v Speaker 4>introduced in states around the country, and I'd say about

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<v Speaker 4>seventy percent of those are focused at the elementary and

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<v Speaker 4>school aged level. The reason being because children are young, impressionable,

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<v Speaker 4>and they have vulnerable minds, and they assume that if

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<v Speaker 4>they can indoctrinate them at a young age, then they

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<v Speaker 4>can force upon them a very narrow religious perspective that's

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<v Speaker 4>rooted in Christian nationalism.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you probably saw the recent headlines about the National

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<v Speaker 1>Prayer Breakfast, which why is our government hosting? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>why for decades has the United States had a National

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<v Speaker 1>Prayer Breakfast? And of course they're not doing Islamic prayers

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<v Speaker 1>or Hindu prayers. It's always, you know, Christian prayers. And

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<v Speaker 1>then Trump weaponizes it to essentially go after his political enemies.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean a lot of I mean a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people say, can you talk religion instead of politics? But

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<v Speaker 1>the two you cannot extricate them. Right, if you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about religion, certainly Christian nationalism, you're talking politics, right.

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<v Speaker 3>That's true.

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<v Speaker 4>And Mark dan is FFRF's federal policy director, and he

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<v Speaker 4>did an incredible job of leading faith coalitions and non

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<v Speaker 4>religious coalitions into signing on to a letter that really

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<v Speaker 4>laid out what the National Prayer Breakfast has become, which

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<v Speaker 4>is a platform for maga Christianity to basically give Trump

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<v Speaker 4>an additional platform to talk just about everything except the

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<v Speaker 4>fundamentals of Christianity.

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<v Speaker 3>We heard some remarks in.

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<v Speaker 4>That he said he quote couldn't see how anyone could

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<v Speaker 4>call themselves a democrat and be a Christian and YadA YadA,

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<v Speaker 4>And so we were very successful in getting a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of congressional members to not attend the Prayer Breakfast. We

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<v Speaker 4>worked close with Congressman Jared Huffman, who did a great

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<v Speaker 4>job in explaining why this isn't a traditional faith based initiative,

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<v Speaker 4>but more so of a political ideology that's been weaponized

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<v Speaker 4>to amplify megapolitics.

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<v Speaker 3>And so we are.

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<v Speaker 4>Seeing the we're seeing the enrollment and the attendance for

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<v Speaker 4>that drop off because people.

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<v Speaker 3>Are becoming aware of what it really is. And we

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<v Speaker 3>were happy to see that maybe one day it.

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<v Speaker 1>Will be like the Milania movie and be a few

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<v Speaker 1>people who go and.

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<v Speaker 4>Or people are on Craigslist pay others fifty dollars to

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<v Speaker 4>attend the National Prayer Breakfast.

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<v Speaker 1>Fail at the box. Let the Prayer Breakfast fail at

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<v Speaker 1>the box. Office. That's all. That's all I'm saying. I

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<v Speaker 1>want to get into trying to protect children from anti science,

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<v Speaker 1>anti vax you know, the anti medice and initiatives that

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<v Speaker 1>are going on. Can you. I mean, tell me about

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<v Speaker 1>some of the politicians at whatever level, local, state, federal,

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<v Speaker 1>who are on the front lines for secular activism. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>always seeing Jamie Raskin out there, but I mean, are

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<v Speaker 1>there some people out there who have impressed you?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 4>There are so many secular lawmakers are becoming more and

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<v Speaker 4>more outspoken. At the congressional level, we have the Freethought

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<v Speaker 4>Caucus that continues to grow, and they're elevating their platform

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<v Speaker 4>to raise serious concerns. Many states still have religious exemptions

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<v Speaker 4>for child protection laws, and we believe that religious beliefs

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<v Speaker 4>does not override a child's right to safety and health.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's why we've authored the CHARM Act. It stands

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<v Speaker 4>for Children Have a Right to Medicine Act, and this

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<v Speaker 4>bill would repeal those religious exemptions for parents who don't

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<v Speaker 4>get the necessary medical treatment for their children when they're sick.

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<v Speaker 4>For example, there was a case innic Wisconsin in two

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<v Speaker 4>thousand and.

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<v Speaker 3>Eight where a child had diabetes.

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<v Speaker 4>The family refused to get medical treatment because their congregation

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<v Speaker 4>at their church was praying the diabetes away, and unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 4>that little girl passed away. And that's just one of many,

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<v Speaker 4>many examples that we have, these just terrible tragedies where

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<v Speaker 4>children aren't getting the right to medicine, they're not getting

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<v Speaker 4>the treatment they need because of because of religious beliefs,

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<v Speaker 4>and the parents who fail to get their children the

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<v Speaker 4>treatment are exempted from any type of penalty or law

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<v Speaker 4>because of the religious exemptions.

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<v Speaker 3>And we want to repeal that.

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<v Speaker 4>We want to make sure that first and foremost children

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<v Speaker 4>have access to health and that they can stay safe

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<v Speaker 4>even in religious environments.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll continue with Mickey Dollins, the Regional Government Affairs manager

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<v Speaker 1>for the Freedom from Religion Foundation. To second, I appreciate

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<v Speaker 1>you listening so very much. I continue speaking here with

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<v Speaker 1>Mickey Dollands is the regional Government Affairs manager for the

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<v Speaker 1>Freedom From Religion Foundation. I mentioned at the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation blasphemy laws, so we should talk about that now.

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<v Speaker 1>I used to think this was just blue law stuff

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<v Speaker 1>tucked away ignored.

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<v Speaker 4>No, Mickey, well, first, so everyone's aware of blasphemy is

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<v Speaker 4>when someone is critical or disrespectful of one's religion or

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<v Speaker 4>someone's deity, and in other countries this is punishable by death.

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<v Speaker 4>We've been working with the ex Muslims of North America

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<v Speaker 4>to get lawmakers to repeal the five remaining blasphemy laws

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<v Speaker 4>on the books in the United States of America. You

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<v Speaker 4>may wonder, like, why are these still around? Well, I

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<v Speaker 4>think Salem, Massachusetts back during the witch trials. Back then,

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<v Speaker 4>blasphemy was punishable by a hot iron rod stuck straight

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<v Speaker 4>through the tongue. At one point, it was punishable by drowning,

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<v Speaker 4>of course, and so while it's unenforceable today, it is

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<v Speaker 4>still symbolic, especially for people who are members of ex

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<v Speaker 4>Muslims of North America, who let many who have escaped

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<v Speaker 4>countries where they could be punished by death for being blasphemous.

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<v Speaker 4>You look at this state of politics now and you say, hey,

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<v Speaker 4>we still have blasphemy laws on the books in five states.

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<v Speaker 4>We don't want to go down that road. So it's

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<v Speaker 4>best it's just to get them repealed right off the books.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm reminded of the license plate controversies. Wasn't all that

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<v Speaker 1>long ago somebody wanted to put atheist or godless or

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<v Speaker 1>something on a license plate, and they were rejected, and

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<v Speaker 1>it became like this big, big thing you're talking about blasphemy,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, with Trump's memorandum saying that they were going

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<v Speaker 1>to go after anybody in anything that was anti Christian,

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<v Speaker 1>anti American, anti capitalists. So I guess Jesus is a

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<v Speaker 1>free market capitalist. But I'm like, okay, well, what's anti

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<v Speaker 1>Christian mean? Doesn't mean anybody critical of Christianity because that

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<v Speaker 1>includes moderate progressive Christians going after Christian nationalism. Right, So

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<v Speaker 1>this I don't know if it's legally enforceable, but it

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<v Speaker 1>certainly sets the tone anti American, anti capitalist, anti Christian.

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<v Speaker 3>Could be me right exactly. An ambiguity is the point.

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<v Speaker 4>The idea is to chill free speech, to make people

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<v Speaker 4>less braverable to be outspoken. And you do that by

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<v Speaker 4>putting out these ambiguous executive orders that no one can

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<v Speaker 4>really pin down, but they could use them in any

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<v Speaker 4>way they want if the circumstance.

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<v Speaker 1>Arise, Anything else on your plate before I direct everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>because I want them to support FFRF and these initiatives

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<v Speaker 1>as well, But anything else that we need to know about,

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<v Speaker 1>at least here on the front.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, the Great thing about the k Pop Act or

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<v Speaker 4>the Student Cycler Bill of Rights and the CHARM Act

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<v Speaker 4>Children have a Right to Medicine is that this is

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<v Speaker 4>model legislation. And for anyone who's listening to this, you

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<v Speaker 4>have a state senator, you have a state representative, reach

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<v Speaker 4>out to us at f frfaction dot org. We can

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<v Speaker 4>connect you with the model language. We can give you

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<v Speaker 4>our toolkits that will assist your lawmakers in introducing this language.

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<v Speaker 4>And we will be better off by having these Supreme

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<v Speaker 4>Court precedents codified in the state law. So unfortunately, in

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<v Speaker 4>the kind of likely event that they are overturned or

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<v Speaker 4>continue to be chopped away at you will in your

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<v Speaker 4>state retain those religious freedoms and protections at the state level.

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<v Speaker 4>So reach out to us at f frfaction dot org.

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<v Speaker 4>We'd love to give you the toolkits and assist your

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<v Speaker 4>lawmakers in introducing this legislation.

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<v Speaker 1>I read an article recently about how autocrats and oligarchs

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<v Speaker 1>and even tyrants will sometimes provide a way for people

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<v Speaker 1>to rant and be exasperated social media. I guess, but

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<v Speaker 1>they lock off their opportunities to actually affect change.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, let them whine and that'll keep them busy and

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<v Speaker 1>then will actually lock off any opportunities for them to

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<v Speaker 1>affect positive change, to resist. And yet FFRF is providing

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<v Speaker 1>an avenue for that. So instead of just sitting around

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<v Speaker 1>cursing the darkness, wondering how bad it's going to get,

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<v Speaker 1>we have to get in the game. We have to

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<v Speaker 1>reach out, We have to engage our elected officials. So

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<v Speaker 1>I know some people who are even running for office.

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<v Speaker 1>This has motivated them. You've probably seen that as well.

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<v Speaker 1>You've seen a lot of folks who've been watching the

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<v Speaker 1>news and they decided, screw this, I'm going.

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<v Speaker 4>To get in the game right absolutely, and I would

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<v Speaker 4>encourage many secular people to also run for office.

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<v Speaker 3>In states like Oklahoma and Texas.

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<v Speaker 4>Many may assume just because they're non religious, they're automatically

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<v Speaker 4>disqualified from being a competitor for public office. That's absolutely

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<v Speaker 4>not true. Your constituents are going to care more about

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<v Speaker 4>how hard you work for them during the week than

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<v Speaker 4>what you do on Sunday morning. And so if you

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<v Speaker 4>want to run for office, you definitely should. If you

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<v Speaker 4>just want to advocate, keep calling, keep emailing. You've seen

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<v Speaker 4>how this is making a difference, so continue speaking up.

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<v Speaker 4>If you live near a capital, you can attend committee hearings,

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<v Speaker 4>you can testify, live in some states. There's so many

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<v Speaker 4>opportunities for you to use your voice. And that's why

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<v Speaker 4>we wanted to empower you with these model legislations that

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<v Speaker 4>you can take to your state elected's and ask them

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<v Speaker 4>to pass, and we will be right there to help

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<v Speaker 4>you every step of the way.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, I know we're supposed to be done, but I

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<v Speaker 1>got to ask this cynical question. Does it make a

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<v Speaker 1>difference now if I write a letter or make a

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<v Speaker 1>phone call? Don't they have some menion and they're like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for all and click and then they just go

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<v Speaker 1>do whatever they want to do anyway.

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<v Speaker 4>You know a lot of people think that, and there

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<v Speaker 4>are some lawmakers who are going to ignore it. But

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<v Speaker 4>I have people that I have talked to in the

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<v Speaker 4>past who have just been very consistent and reaching out

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<v Speaker 4>to those lawmakers, having in person meetings, calling and hey,

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<v Speaker 4>if ultimately you continue to get a brick wall, you

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<v Speaker 4>may be the one to run against them. So and

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<v Speaker 4>also I would differentiate between the federal level and the

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<v Speaker 4>state level. There's so many bad things happening at the

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<v Speaker 4>federal level. And yes, you can should continue to call

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<v Speaker 4>your congress person and you're us senator, but do not

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<v Speaker 4>neglect what's happening at your own state level, in your

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<v Speaker 4>own local municipality, at your own school board, because that's

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<v Speaker 4>a great place not only to start if you're going

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<v Speaker 4>to run for office, but also in a great place

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<v Speaker 4>to start when reaching out to those who are elected,

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<v Speaker 4>to amplify your voice, to be your voice in the

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<v Speaker 4>decision making process. And at the state level, it's much

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<v Speaker 4>more easy to get in person meetings, meet at a diner,

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<v Speaker 4>you can meet at a coffee shop, or even at

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<v Speaker 4>their office. But don't give up. We've got a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of resources at f frf Action dot org that can

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<v Speaker 4>help you and assist you in being effective when it

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<v Speaker 4>comes to reaching out to your lawmakers.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm glad you brought up the school boards. There's a

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<v Speaker 1>concentrated effort to actually stack the school boards with Christian nationalists.

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<v Speaker 1>They are well funded organizations doing that. So becoming a

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<v Speaker 1>member of a school board, I mean that's fantastic. Mickey

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<v Speaker 1>Dolland's regional government Affairs manager for fr F and the

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<v Speaker 1>f FRF Action Fund f fr Faction dot Org. I'd

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<v Speaker 1>say you're doing the Lord's work. But I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>that's how I want to phrase that, Mickey. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>been a joy to speak to you and I appreciate

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<v Speaker 1>you being out there fighting the good fight.

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<v Speaker 3>Man, you too, Seth. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

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