1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 1: I'm back everyone. I'm Matt Ford, and welcome to the 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,199 Good Trouble Show. As you may have noticed, I've been 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,920 away for quite some time as my mother passed away recently. 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,160 This is needless to say, it's been a really an 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:25,640 enormously difficult time for me, my family, and I just 6 00:00:25,679 --> 00:00:27,879 I want to thank everyone, each and every one of 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,479 you for your kind words, your thoughts, replies to tweets. 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,200 DMS even got a really really kind message from a 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:42,560 debunker that does another show, and it was quite genuine 10 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:48,479 and I really appreciate it. And anyway, my heart has 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,520 really been warmed by everyone's response. And my advice to 12 00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:57,640 everyone watching this show, that those of you that still 13 00:00:57,679 --> 00:00:59,759 have both of your parents are one of your parents, 14 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,159 is to call them every day and let them know 15 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:06,159 how much you love them. Get off of your cell 16 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,879 phone scrolling around or on YouTube or x but pick 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,560 up the phone, call them, visit them, spend time with them, 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,920 ask them the questions only they can answer. Maybe your 19 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,640 mom knows some family history that you would love to 20 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,319 know about, or your dad, but really spend time with them. 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,920 And I think a lot of times in this topic 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,040 sort of pursuing this UAP topic. It's easy to kind 23 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,840 of become hyper focused and lose focus on a lot 24 00:01:37,879 --> 00:01:39,640 of the things in life that matter. I know that 25 00:01:40,159 --> 00:01:43,799 I certainly have not been the best of it best 26 00:01:43,879 --> 00:01:45,840 at that, but I want to thank all of you 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,959 for your kind words. Now, my mother, she was a 28 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,359 fighter growing up. I remember her telling me to always 29 00:01:54,439 --> 00:01:57,680 stand up for what is right. She's to say to me, 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,840 give them hell, Harry. I remember her telling me that, 31 00:01:59,879 --> 00:02:01,920 I think as early as nine years old, and she 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,840 would always say, never be afraid to go to the mat, 33 00:02:06,879 --> 00:02:10,000 stand up to bullies and cowards. And that is what 34 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:15,039 today's show is about. Bullies that are targeting three individuals 35 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:19,759 who have served this country with distinction, targeting these individuals 36 00:02:19,759 --> 00:02:25,400 by defeiming or removing the Wikipedia pages of these public figures. Today, 37 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,479 Trial Attorney Todd McMurtry will join us to discuss the 38 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,319 potential legal remedies for public figures whose Wikipedia pages have 39 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:38,080 been a target of these attacks. But first hit the 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,280 subscribe and thumbs up buttons on YouTube, leave a comment 41 00:02:41,319 --> 00:02:44,000 and let us know what you think about this episode. 42 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,719 You can also find us on x at Good Trouble 43 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:50,639 Show and everywhere else at The Good Trouble Show. You 44 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,400 can also find us wherever you enjoy your podcasts. Search 45 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:56,439 for The Good Trouble Show with Matt Ford and if 46 00:02:56,479 --> 00:02:58,319 you want to chip in to keep the lights on, 47 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,759 we always appreciate that. Can become a Patreon member of 48 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,639 The Good Trouble Show by going to www dot patreon 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,599 dot com, forward slash the Good Trouble Show, sign up 50 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,319 and you can support this awesome show. Super chats are 51 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,439 always open and a great way to lend your financial support. 52 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,599 All of that allows us to bring you excellent guests 53 00:03:19,719 --> 00:03:22,639 like we have today now on with the show. So 54 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,520 who are these folks that have been targeted on Wikipedia? 55 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,159 And how have they been targeted? These are public figures 56 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,719 who have served this nation with distinction. These are individuals 57 00:03:34,919 --> 00:03:38,199 that are highly, highly accomplished, and I'm going to read 58 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,919 you some of their bios. This is a bio about 59 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:47,719 Harold Mongren. This is actually taken out of his obituary. 60 00:03:48,159 --> 00:03:53,319 He passed away early in the summer. Ambassador Doctor Harold B. 61 00:03:53,520 --> 00:04:02,479 Mongren of Warrington, Virginia, a distinguished economist diplomat to US presidents. 62 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,479 Harold was a man of exceptional intellect and integrity whose 63 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:13,800 work shaped global economic policies and influenced international trade relations. 64 00:04:14,319 --> 00:04:18,480 He served as a senior advisor to Presidents John F. Kennedy, 65 00:04:19,199 --> 00:04:25,120 Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon, and Gerald Ford. This guy 66 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,079 was clearly no slouch. He clearly was a brilliant man. 67 00:04:29,199 --> 00:04:33,680 Unfortunately I did not have the pleasure of ever meeting 68 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,519 him or interviewing him. But yeah, this this man lived 69 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:45,600 a full life. Another person who was recently targeted, Pippa Malgram, 70 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:52,800 is actually Harold Harold Maunngrim's daughter. Pipa Malmgram an economist, author, 71 00:04:52,879 --> 00:04:58,680 and economic advisor to President George W. Bush. Pipa Mountgram 72 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,639 is known for expertise in global financial markets and geopolitics. 73 00:05:03,199 --> 00:05:06,160 She served President George W. Bush and the White House 74 00:05:06,439 --> 00:05:11,040 as Special Assistant to the President on the National Economic 75 00:05:11,199 --> 00:05:15,240 Council after nine to eleven. She was also responsible for 76 00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:20,160 assessing terrorism risks to the economy and technology as a 77 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:26,079 source of geopolitical competitiveness. Malmgram is the author of five books, 78 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:31,439 including Geopolitics for Investors and The Leadership Lab. Her most 79 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,360 recent best seller, The Infinite Leader, won International Press Award 80 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:40,720 for the Best Book on Leadership. Again. Another individual that 81 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:46,279 has served this country with distinction as clearly a brilliant woman. 82 00:05:47,399 --> 00:05:53,079 And yeah, another victim of what we're going to talk about. Finally, 83 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,879 Chris Mellon, who I've had the pleasure of knowing about 84 00:05:58,879 --> 00:06:01,120 a year or so. He's on The Good Trouble Show. 85 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,040 Who is Chris Mellon. Chris Mellon spent nearly twenty years 86 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,720 in the US intelligence community, to include serving as the 87 00:06:08,759 --> 00:06:13,720 Minority Staff director of the Senate Intelligence Committee and the 88 00:06:13,879 --> 00:06:19,800 Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence under Presidents Clinton 89 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:26,279 and Bush. This is again someone that has served this country. 90 00:06:27,079 --> 00:06:30,560 He has taught at Georgetown University, authored over a dozen 91 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:35,759 articles on public policy issues, and received numerous awards, including 92 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:43,079 the National Reconnaissance Office Gold Medal, the DIA, the DIA 93 00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:48,879 Director's Medal, and the Secretary of Defense Exceptional Public Service Award, 94 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,920 the highest award that can be bestowed on a Department 95 00:06:53,959 --> 00:06:58,319 of Defense civilian by the Secretary of Defense. Chris has 96 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,839 worked hard the last few few years to draw attention 97 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,600 to the fact that the US intelligence community has failed 98 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:10,399 to alert senior officials that large numbers of unidentified aircraft 99 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:18,439 are violating restricted US airspace on a recurring basis. Now 100 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,439 earlier today, I was alerted that all three of these 101 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:29,480 individuals Wikipedia pages were submitted for deletion. Now Momgren's page 102 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,600 late last night. As you can see here, the bulk 103 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,920 of Harold Mamgren's page was deleted, not the entire page, 104 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,839 but I mean, just look at the volume of what 105 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,800 was originally on his page completely removed. I want you 106 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,399 to take a look at the mountain of information that 107 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:56,319 was deleted by this debunker editing on Wikipedia. This is 108 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,800 what is at the top of his daughter and former 109 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:05,240 presidentially cannot advisor Pippa Malgrim's page. And hours before large 110 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:10,040 portions of Harold Mongren's page were deleted. The Wikipedia page 111 00:08:10,399 --> 00:08:15,160 a former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, Christopher 112 00:08:15,199 --> 00:08:20,759 Mellon was completely deleted. The entire Wikipedia page that he 113 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:24,879 has had on here on Wikipedia talking about everything he 114 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,800 has done for this country was completely deleted. And get this, 115 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,799 Chris Mellon comes from the Mellon family, very famous family. 116 00:08:36,519 --> 00:08:39,240 They have their own Wikipedia page. Well guess what this 117 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:45,720 debunker Wikipedia editor did. He completely erased any reference to 118 00:08:45,799 --> 00:08:52,720 Christopher Mellon on his own family's Wikipedia page. It's insane. 119 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:58,120 I mean, how vindictive is that. Now, who deleted it? 120 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,879 I'll tell you an anonymous Wikipedia editor by the name 121 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:08,919 of Chetzford is targeting their pages due to their advocacy 122 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,080 for UFO UAP transparency. That's right, This guy or girl, 123 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:21,200 whoever this is, this Chetzford is vindictively targeting these three 124 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:27,679 individuals simply because they are pushing for UAP transparency from 125 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,840 the government. That's it. That's the only reason this person 126 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:38,279 is doing it, not for any altruistic reason. He's doing it. 127 00:09:38,639 --> 00:09:41,879 He or she is doing it out of spite. And 128 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,559 now you may be asking yourself, so how can this happen? 129 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:49,480 How can these people get away with this on Wikipedia? 130 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,720 The truth of the matter is that they are all 131 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,639 part of an organized network of Wikipedia editors dedicated to 132 00:09:57,799 --> 00:10:04,000 hijacking Wikipedia pages to to push their worldview. One such 133 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,879 group is the Gorilla Skeptics of Wikipedia, a nonprofit based 134 00:10:08,919 --> 00:10:14,080 out of Selina's, California, led by its founder Susan Gerbik. Now, 135 00:10:14,399 --> 00:10:17,559 what does what are the Gorilla Skeptics of Wikipedia do? 136 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,720 This is Susan in her own words. 137 00:10:21,159 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 2: So, I run a Wikipedia editing group, and it's an 138 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,279 international group of approximately one hundred and fifty people. We're 139 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:32,240 located on Facebook in a secret group called the Secret Cabal. 140 00:10:32,399 --> 00:10:35,279 Speaker 3: Because these are private groups or secret groups, you can't 141 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:37,360 join them. I have to allow you, and I have 142 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,679 admins that will allow you to join the group, but 143 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,200 we check you out because we don't want to allow 144 00:10:41,919 --> 00:10:46,279 you know, somebody in who's you know, infiltration. 145 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:46,919 Speaker 1: My gosh. 146 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's how we spend a lot of our time. 147 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:52,879 Speaker 3: But we've worked on pages on UFOs and spontaneous human 148 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:56,320 combustion and all kinds of different topics that are pseudo 149 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,799 science or or misinformation. Wikipedia is the single most important 150 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,399 tool in the skeptical toolbox. 151 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:03,399 Speaker 4: That we have. 152 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,759 Speaker 3: But we keep track of all the Wikipedia pages that 153 00:11:06,799 --> 00:11:08,399 we have made a massive. 154 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 4: A rewrite to or have written. 155 00:11:12,759 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 3: And we are now at one two hundred and thirty pages, 156 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:19,720 and we keep track of how many pages, how many 157 00:11:19,759 --> 00:11:23,960 page views those and thirty pages have, and we're fifty 158 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,120 one million. 159 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,159 Speaker 4: Page views, over fifty one million page views. 160 00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: Homeopathy. We've changed that page drastically. The lead, the very 161 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,480 very first couple sentences of the page, which most people 162 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,960 is the only thing they read, we've used the word quackery. 163 00:11:38,279 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 4: I mean, that's so awesome. I am so proud of 164 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,679 these people and the other one hundred. I have one 165 00:11:49,759 --> 00:11:54,039 hundred and thirteen people, and I'm always looking to recruit 166 00:11:54,039 --> 00:11:54,840 and require more. 167 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,159 Speaker 3: How in the world of people still support this woman. 168 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:04,879 We even have on here her conviction, her legal conviction 169 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:05,519 here if. 170 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: You click on for a gold investment scheme. 171 00:12:07,879 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have it so you can actually go and 172 00:12:10,159 --> 00:12:12,720 see where she's a convicted felon. So when people say 173 00:12:12,759 --> 00:12:15,279 she's a convicted felon, We're like, go to Wikipedia. 174 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 4: There it is. In the last week, those five hundred 175 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:22,039 pages have created in the last week two hundred and fifteen, 176 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:25,720 seven hundred and forty two page views, in the last 177 00:12:25,879 --> 00:12:29,600 month one million, five hundred and thirty sixty three thousand, 178 00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:31,879 four hundred and ninety three page views. And in the 179 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,519 whole time that these page views have existed, these pages 180 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,879 we've written. The GSoW project has written those five hundred pages, 181 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:46,799 and those page views are now at nineteen million, sixty three, 182 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,159 nine hundred and thirty four page views. 183 00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: So if you want to be part of the solution unbelievable. 184 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,879 Now you may be wondering, like how prolific is this 185 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,320 organized effort? For instance, the Gorilla skeptics, the Gorilla Skeptics 186 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:07,080 alone consist of over two hundred editors. Two hundred editors 187 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,200 that have edited over two thousand Wikipedia pages that they 188 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,679 consider pseo pseudoscience. So it could be anything from chiropractic 189 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:23,919 to homeopathy, to UFOs UAPs, to bigfoot, to ghosts to massage, 190 00:13:24,039 --> 00:13:30,519 anything that they consider pseudoscience. What they do is they 191 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,919 train up a group of editors, and this is probably 192 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,679 happening with other organized skeptic groups. They recruit people that 193 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,440 are interested in editing on Wikipedia. They teach them how 194 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,559 to edit. Wikipedia has a very sort of a strict 195 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,639 set of rules that you have to learn. You can't 196 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,039 really just kind of go in there and edit successfully. 197 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,240 The other thing is that Wikipedia editing is based on seniority. 198 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:01,960 So if you are a Wikipedia editor that say, been 199 00:14:02,519 --> 00:14:06,000 editing since you know, five, six, seven years ago, you're 200 00:14:06,039 --> 00:14:09,200 gonna have higher seniority than somebody that is brand new 201 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,240 to Wikipedia. So let's say you edit a page on 202 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,559 Christopher Mellon and you're this Chatsford individual who's done this 203 00:14:17,919 --> 00:14:22,080 for a number of years. Well, here comes a new 204 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,360 Wikipedia editor or a junior Wikipedia editor that says, looks 205 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:28,919 at what Chatsford has done and said, you know what, 206 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,679 this is bullshit. This is this is trashing this guy's page. Well, 207 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,919 this Wikipedia editor goes in this what they call a 208 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,759 talk page and has a conversation it's kind of like 209 00:14:40,799 --> 00:14:45,559 a chat that's recorded with this senior Wikipedia editor. Well, 210 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,399 these senior Wikipedia editors, because they have seniority, basically can 211 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,840 boot out what this junior editor is doing. Oftentimes, what 212 00:14:56,039 --> 00:14:59,679 happens is if this junior editor comes along and is 213 00:14:59,759 --> 00:15:05,720 trying to do the right thing. These Wikipedia editors, this 214 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,200 organized group of debunkers, they have the seniority to ban 215 00:15:10,919 --> 00:15:16,679 from Wikipedia that individual from edit ever editing Wikipedia ever. Again, 216 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,440 That's that's how they control it. Another way they control 217 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,720 it is if they see someone up and coming, someone 218 00:15:25,759 --> 00:15:27,720 that they know that is going to be in the news, 219 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:32,399 they create the page from the beginning. Susan Gerbek of 220 00:15:32,399 --> 00:15:35,759 the Gorilla Skeptics of Wikipedia did that for Lou Elizonda 221 00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:39,159 when Lou first came on the scene. Now why did 222 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,559 she do it? She did it so she can exert 223 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:48,320 control over his page. Now why are they doing this 224 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,679 with Wikipedia. The thing to keep in mind is Wikipedia 225 00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:57,639 is one of the top ten most trafficked websites in 226 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,279 the world. I know at one point it was is 227 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,840 showing like the seventh most trafficked website in the world. So, 228 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,639 if you are someone that is say, interested in UAP UFOs, 229 00:16:09,679 --> 00:16:12,200 and you're not on Twitter or x whatever you want 230 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,639 to call it, or Reddit, and you're not following any 231 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:17,480 of it, and you want to know what is you know, 232 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,120 what is up with this UAP thing that I keep 233 00:16:20,159 --> 00:16:24,159 hearing Congress is doing something about. Most people will go 234 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,000 to Wikipedia and they will look it up. Now what 235 00:16:28,159 --> 00:16:33,399 happens is these gorilla skeptics and other organized groups they 236 00:16:33,679 --> 00:16:37,759 write the Wikipedia page in such a way that it 237 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:44,279 promotes the debunker point of view. They stated, as you know, 238 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,120 as you heard that the first I think it's I 239 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,960 don't know, a couple three sentences they know are the 240 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:56,639 most important. So they will take a Wikipedia page and 241 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:00,519 they will rewrite it if it's already been written, and 242 00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:03,320 they will. They will throw a bunch of editors on it. 243 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,880 They will perfect it. They will edit this thing offline, 244 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,799 manipulate it so it pushes the UH the debunking skeptical 245 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:18,960 point of view. They will change the wording such that 246 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,960 if you were to look at these pages, you would 247 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:24,680 think Wow, this sounds like a bunch of bs or 248 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,960 or maybe luel Azondo is full of uh, full of 249 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:35,119 you know what. They cleverly use uh sort of charged words, 250 00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:43,559 charged words and and uh in you window to skew 251 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,440 the pages so that anyone that is brand new to 252 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,279 this sort of thing or anything for that matter. Again, 253 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,480 it could be a chiropractic, they'll go on there and 254 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,440 they'll they'll read it and they'll go, oh, I don't 255 00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,559 want to go see a chiropractor on homeopathy and gerbick 256 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,640 crowd that they managed to get the word quackery approved 257 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:09,319 on the Wikipedia page when they edited the Wikipedia page 258 00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:12,480 for homeopathy. So it's not it's not only things like 259 00:18:12,839 --> 00:18:16,079 UFO's UAPs, which we like to talk about on the show. 260 00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:21,359 This is what they do now. If you go when 261 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,759 you look at whistleblower government whistle blower David Grush, look 262 00:18:26,799 --> 00:18:31,400 at his page. You scroll through here and uh it, 263 00:18:31,519 --> 00:18:33,519 you know, it talks about all sorts of stuff. But 264 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:38,519 then you scroll down to a section called Responses from 265 00:18:38,599 --> 00:18:46,599 Relevant Experts, and it is paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph 266 00:18:46,799 --> 00:18:53,000 of skeptics. These are all skeptics, These are all debunkers. 267 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,240 These are people that go out of their way and 268 00:18:56,319 --> 00:19:00,960 spends oodles of time on staring that they don't even 269 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,599 believe is true. Now you have to ask yourself, why 270 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,400 would these individuals spend so much time on something that 271 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:15,079 they just don't believe in. It makes no sense. And 272 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:23,359 talk about these folks as relevant experts experts they are not. 273 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,319 They are propagandists. Not only do the guerrilla skeptics of 274 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,519 Wikipedia and other outfits like that target target pages such 275 00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:37,839 as uap UFOs or anything that they consider pseudoscience, they 276 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:43,240 also rewrite or write from scratch the pages of their own. 277 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:51,960 In other words, they're fellow debunkers. Mcwest, UFO debunker Susan 278 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,279 Gerbik Her folks wrote his Wikipedia page. Now you may 279 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:01,119 ask may be asking yourself, well, why would these debunkers 280 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:06,559 be writing other debunker's pages. Because they know that any say, 281 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,799 like segment producer from CNN or ABC News or whatever. 282 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,640 Let's say that that segment producer wants to interview UFO 283 00:20:16,759 --> 00:20:21,960 skeptic Micwest, They're going to make damn sure that Mick 284 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:28,359 West's Wikipedia page is in tip top shape. It psychologically 285 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,519 does what they want. These folks, they take care of 286 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:40,440 their own folks. This is propaganda. This is information warfare. 287 00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:43,799 They want to tell you how to think. They want 288 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:47,359 to control the narrative. They want people to go to 289 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,319 Wikipedia and not know the whole picture. Now, we don't 290 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,720 know if this editor Chetsford is related to the gorilla 291 00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:59,920 skeptics of Wikipedia, but it is, it wouldn't be surprising. 292 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,519 We've seen this type of thing from the guerrilla skeptics 293 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,640 editors before. Now you may be asking yourself, are these 294 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,759 editing efforts? Are they altruistic? Is there any sort of 295 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:18,880 perhaps good intentions behind this? Well, a window into that 296 00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:23,079 is a little known thing in Wikipedia called talk pages. 297 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,960 These things they exist on the Wikipedia page itself, so 298 00:21:27,759 --> 00:21:30,200 you have the front facing page, which of course is 299 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,160 what everyone sees. But when these pages are up for 300 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,200 editing or deletion, there's a little section called the talk page. 301 00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:41,720 And this page is kind of like, I don't know, 302 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:44,640 like a group chat or something, but it's you know, 303 00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:49,200 it doesn't the messages don't disappear. So the Wikipedia editors 304 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,319 they engage in discussions amongst each other with other editors 305 00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:57,200 on these talk pages. And these pages can give you 306 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,559 a window into these editors true true motives. And I 307 00:22:01,599 --> 00:22:04,759 want to read some of some of that, and again 308 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:07,759 I think this will give you some idea as to 309 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,480 this Chetsford individual if they're up to no good or 310 00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:15,240 they just start doing what they think is right. So 311 00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:19,400 let's look at the talk page for Harold Momgren again. 312 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:25,680 This is from this Chetzford individual. The late Harold Mongren 313 00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:29,599 has catapulted to awareness in the wild corners of the 314 00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:35,000 Internet populated by UFO enthusiasts due to his wacky claims 315 00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:39,079 about marauding space aliens. He was a minor staffer in 316 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,160 the JFK administration and later worked as a financial advisor, 317 00:22:43,599 --> 00:22:48,720 though UFO enthusiasts on social media have recently reimagined him 318 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,519 as the man who saved the world from nuclear apocalypse 319 00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:56,759 during the Cuban missile crisis, based apparently on Momgren's claims 320 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:01,279 of having beaten Curtis LeMay in a staring contest. It's 321 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,400 uh uh, it's see he goes on large segments he 322 00:23:05,519 --> 00:23:09,839 or she large segments containing illustrious assertions about his educational 323 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:15,799 pedigree and globe trotting accomplishments are totally unreferenced. The Daily 324 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,440 Mail and News Nation, which we have proscribed from using 325 00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:22,640 as a source of for any coverage touching the topic 326 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,359 of UFOs under UFO Nation is what these folks call 327 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:31,960 news nation. It's uh, you know, it's you. You read this. 328 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,960 You you hear the You hear the snarkiness, you hear 329 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:41,200 the uh uh, the the sarcasm. Let's look at Pipa Malgram. 330 00:23:41,559 --> 00:23:44,839 Pipa Malgram, the economist and former presidential advisor. 331 00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 3: She uh. 332 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: Let's see what the talk page says from her about her. Again, 333 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:56,000 this is the this Chetsford individual, not a single piece 334 00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:59,160 of W. P. Colin's Sick God. I have no idea 335 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,279 what that abbreviation is for in this in this vanity piece, 336 00:24:04,759 --> 00:24:08,960 I'm speculating based on the licensing of the seer's glamour 337 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,640 shot in the info box finds nothing. Either does not 338 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,640 presume notability for her for the minor post of special assistant. 339 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,839 The only other possible claim are apparently self nominated persons 340 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:26,359 who pay a one hundred dollars registration fee. Again, listening 341 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:33,960 to this Wikipedia editor, this debunker, it's it's clear that 342 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,759 this person is does not have altruistic reasons. Let's let's 343 00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:46,000 move on now. Finally to Christopher Melon Christopher mellon News 344 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,599 nation is not usable as a source. Mellon served briefly. 345 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,000 It appears, less than two years as a deputy assistant 346 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,119 secretary in the Pentagon, while sub cabinet officers often get 347 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,359 benefit of the doubt for w P. Colon in under 348 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:05,200 w P, I don't know what the what this means. 349 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,319 We have never extended that all the way down to 350 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,720 lowly rank of deputy assistant secretary, which is below assistant secretary, 351 00:25:13,759 --> 00:25:16,799 under secretary, deputy secretary and secretary. There are more than 352 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,119 one hundred uh uh das. Don't know what that means 353 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:26,920 in US government at at any at any point. Again, 354 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,880 it's it's obvious that this Wikipedia editor is is just 355 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,160 foaming at the mouth of of of of just uh 356 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:43,720 of just starcasm and wanting to play down Christopher Mellen's accomplishments. 357 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,519 You know, look, look this guy up on LinkedIn, look 358 00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:48,720 at his CV and see what he has done in 359 00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:54,559 his life and for this country. It's absolutely disgusting. What 360 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,400 uh you know what these folks are are up to? 361 00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:01,720 But you have to ask yourself. Are the editor's hobbyists 362 00:26:01,759 --> 00:26:05,200 just kind of occasionally getting on or editing on Wikipedia. 363 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,279 The data shows that they are anything but hobbyists. Now, 364 00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:13,519 certainly some are. But let's let's take a look at 365 00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:17,960 the stats for this Chetsford character. These are the administrative 366 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:25,480 stats for user Chetsford. Chetsford has made forty seven edits 367 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,720 edits plus deleted forty three thousand, seven hundred and eighty. 368 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,400 Chetsford has deleted one hundred and fifty four pages. I 369 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,359 wonder if that one hundred and fifty four includes Chris Mellons. 370 00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:43,400 He's protected three hundred and ninety pages, which means that 371 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:47,359 a lot of times these these debunker editors, they will 372 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,519 go and lock a page down to make sure nobody 373 00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:53,720 can mess with it. I actually think Louela Zondo's page 374 00:26:53,880 --> 00:27:02,559 is locked down, blocked fourteen users and get this user 375 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,039 rights modified one hundred and fifty. In other words, Wikipedia 376 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,680 editors that that Chetsford doesn't like what they're doing, which 377 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,279 is probably trying to do the right thing. This guy 378 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,799 he goes and a girl don't know if it's a 379 00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:24,319 guy girl modified? There what they can do on on Wikipedia? Now, 380 00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:31,359 how much time does Chetsford spend debunking and sort of 381 00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:38,039 vandalizing all these Wikipedia pages. Let's look at Chetsford's Wikipedia 382 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,039 time card. Now you look at this and what this 383 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,920 says to me, and all the bigger the dots, the 384 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,640 larger the number of posts per hour per day, But 385 00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:55,720 what this says to me is Chetsford, this is like 386 00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:59,880 a full time job. This guy or girl is he 387 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,640 they're unemployed and has nothing better to do or is 388 00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:06,559 likely being compensated for this. This is like a forty 389 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:12,279 to fifty hour week job. In UTC UTC time, you 390 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:16,680 can see that that Chetsford cranks up at eight am 391 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:22,119 like a job and ends at about two thirty pm. 392 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,000 I'm sorry, no, I take that back. It starts at 393 00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:31,920 eight am, goes until up until midnight editing away on Wikipedia, 394 00:28:32,519 --> 00:28:38,960 and then does even more at midnight and shuts down 395 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:45,480 about four So literally UTC time from eight am until 396 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:54,160 two am, this Chetsford debunker is editing Wikipedia. Now, you 397 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,079 cannot tell me that that person or persons it could 398 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,640 be more than one, that is doing this a paid professional. This, 399 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,119 this is not. This is not any kind of hobbyist. 400 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,759 I can I can. I can tell you that this 401 00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:13,759 looks like a paid full time job. So the question 402 00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:17,599 is is there anything legally that these public figures can 403 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,440 do about the targeting of their public wick, their public Wikipedia. 404 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:26,559 I can't talk. I'm getting time tied, their public Wikipedia pages. 405 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,079 Joining up, joining us again, all time tied today, joining us. 406 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,519 One of them is one of America's premier trial attorneys. 407 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,039 He has represented numerous public figures in defamation cases, including 408 00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:44,000 a member of a royal family. Please welcome trial attorney 409 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:46,680 Todd McMurtry. Todd, how are you, sir? 410 00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:47,759 Speaker 5: Doing well? 411 00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:50,599 Speaker 1: Matt, how are you great? Thanks for thanks for joining us. 412 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,000 I know this is on a really short notice. Now 413 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,640 you are one of the most prominent trial attorneys in America, 414 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,559 and you know we just covered in the program what 415 00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:03,160 has happened and to these three individuals on Wikipedia, what 416 00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:04,359 is your reaction to this? 417 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 5: Well, I've noticed I've had a number of people contact 418 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,559 me over the years about Wikipedia and about manipulation of 419 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:15,279 their pages. And you know, it's an interesting process on 420 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:19,359 how editors are able to go in and capture certain 421 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,799 people's profiles. And I've noticed this primarily in the space 422 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,799 of conservative figures, but now thanks to you and some others, 423 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:30,119 it's come to my attention that people involved in the 424 00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:34,720 UAP space are also suffering from this manipulation by editors. 425 00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:35,799 Or groups of editors. 426 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: Okay, I want to read you a message that I 427 00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:42,920 received from another attorney who has also been looking into 428 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,720 this and sort of what is happening to these folks, 429 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,160 And I'm curious if you agree with this individual's take. 430 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,079 This person said, by the way, this attorney said, by 431 00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:56,000 the way, this is calculated in some ways. The reason 432 00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:59,279 they are all of a sudden pushing to delete the 433 00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:03,440 pages instead of manipulate or edit the text is because 434 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,160 they avoid libel by eliminating the page and assume no 435 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,519 risk by trying to rewrite the narrative of a living person. 436 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,079 This is clearly by design so they don't get sued 437 00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:17,599 and dragged into a deposition where their identities are revealed 438 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,559 and they are put under oath. They one on these 439 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,559 issues previously, but they are carefully calculating the fact that 440 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,880 one day they could lose, and it only takes one 441 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,839 good court ruling to blow that open. So easier to 442 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,920 just try and erase the person. 443 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 5: Your reaction, That's entirely possible. I mean that would make sense. 444 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,519 If I were the attorney representing people who were engaged 445 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:45,440 in active disinformation, I would say you either need to 446 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,240 stop or you need to have correct everything and make 447 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:50,880 sure that it's accurate and truthful and that the opinions 448 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,200 are based upon disclosed facts. So yes, I think that's 449 00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:57,279 completely legitimate take on what might be going on. 450 00:31:58,119 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: I understand that defamation is almost impossible to win in court, 451 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,319 and you have a legal approach that would address this, 452 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,279 which we're going to get into in a few minutes. 453 00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:12,559 But why is defamation so so difficult to win in 454 00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:13,279 a court of law? 455 00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:17,799 Speaker 5: So, defamation if you're a public figure and you know 456 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,240 the people that the common names and whether it's government, 457 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,960 whether it's politics, whether it's UAP, there's you know, there 458 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,519 are people that everyone knows who they are and they 459 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:31,559 achieve this status of public figure. And when you're a 460 00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:37,160 public figure, you can become a target for defamatory comments. 461 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,839 But the only way to hold the other side liable 462 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,119 for those defamatory comments is to meet the standard that's 463 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,640 called actual malice. And it's a constitutional standard, you know, 464 00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:50,480 part of the First Amendment, and it says that that 465 00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:52,480 if you're going to call somebody, you know, say that 466 00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:55,240 they're a fraud or that they're a liar, or that 467 00:32:55,279 --> 00:32:57,519 they're a thief, if you're going to say those things. 468 00:32:58,279 --> 00:33:00,519 To hold the person you said them a lot, you 469 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:02,720 have to show that they acted with actual malice, which 470 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,039 means that they knew or recklessly disregarded the truth and 471 00:33:06,079 --> 00:33:09,000 made the false statement anyway, And a lot of what 472 00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:11,279 you see in in the UAP area, you know, are 473 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,599 are slander terms. Uh you know, you know that somebody 474 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,920 is involved in a conspiracy, or that somebody's you know, lying, 475 00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:21,960 or that they're you know, a disinformation agent. All these 476 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,559 different things that people use to attack public figures in 477 00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:29,079 the UAP space, they're probably defamatory, but you have to 478 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:31,799 say did they are they knowingly lying? And then the 479 00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:35,759 other defense that's available in a defamation action is called opinion. 480 00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:38,200 And an opinion is I, you know, I think so 481 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,400 and so as a bad person, or here are these 482 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,079 four facts. Based upon these four facts, I think this 483 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,799 person is a liar, and and then you're protected the 484 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,279 same Well, that's just your opinion, and that's what everybody 485 00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:52,480 says everywhere you go. It's like, well, that's just your opinion. 486 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:54,559 You know, that's my opinion, So I'm allowed to say 487 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:57,519 almost whatever I want. I think that's wrong, but that's 488 00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:00,440 that's what the law is. And you know, just just yesterday, 489 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,240 I think it was the day before, Sarah Palin had 490 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,400 a lawsuit that had gone all the way to trial 491 00:34:05,759 --> 00:34:08,199 against The New York Times, and a jury ruled against her, 492 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,079 finding that The New York Times did not engage in 493 00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:15,840 actual malice from reporting about her conduct and relation to 494 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,800 the congresswoman Tulsi gab Not Tulsi Gabber, but there's a 495 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,480 congresswoman in out in the Southwest. I'm forgetting her name, 496 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:25,440 but you know, she was shot. And then the New 497 00:34:25,519 --> 00:34:27,679 York Times ran a hit piece on Sarah Palin that 498 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,000 intimated that Sarah Palin's politics led to the radicalized shooter. 499 00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:35,559 And she lost that case because you couldn't prove that 500 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,639 they factually, that they knew they were lying, and that 501 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:39,800 they were not being factual. 502 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,559 Speaker 1: Now in this case, you know, for instance, Christopher Mellon's 503 00:34:44,119 --> 00:34:48,320 entire Wikipedia page was scrubbed from Wikipedia, as well as 504 00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:52,960 references or his name on for instance, the Melon family 505 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,719 Wikipedia page. Is the removal of the Wikipedia page of 506 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,599 a public figure. Is that defamatory in and of itself? 507 00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 5: You know, it's not necessarily defamatory, but it's part of 508 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,880 a larger scheme that these editors have taken to delegitimize 509 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,880 people in the in the UAP field, you know, people 510 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,880 who are coming forth and trying to be a whistleblower 511 00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:18,880 or just explain how things work in government, you know. 512 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,559 And a person like Christopher mellan is is basically has 513 00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:26,800 an unimpeachable character. There's not much you know, you can't 514 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,079 I mean, he just has an unimpeachable character. He's got 515 00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:32,280 a very high level of credibility based upon his personal 516 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,199 history and his governmental service. So he's he is one 517 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,719 of the you know, most authoritative people in this field, 518 00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:44,360 just based upon who he is. So when somebody's that 519 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,199 has has that level of character, the only thing you 520 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,719 can do is try to eliminate them. It's like you 521 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,960 know Soviet era situation where Stalin would take the pictures 522 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,239 of people that were in disfavor out of the foote, 523 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,400 out of the official photographs, and that's what we have here. 524 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,119 So is it actionable? Yeah, I think there are ways 525 00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:07,119 that something like this could be actionable. And Matt as 526 00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:09,280 you know, there's there's some researchers out there that have 527 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,039 done some deep dives on these editors and organizations of 528 00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:18,400 editors in the working with Wikipedia and how they you know, 529 00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:24,039 intentionally delegitimize the fame, cast in a false, false light. 530 00:36:24,159 --> 00:36:25,960 So many people that are involved in the in the 531 00:36:26,039 --> 00:36:29,679 UAP space, and you know, it's an organized effort. So 532 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,719 what I what I think it is and I think 533 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,360 Christopher mell this action with Christopher Mellan falls in the 534 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,440 same category. It's a civil rico, you know, and that 535 00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:43,000 is a racketeering, influence and corrupt organizations situation. In civil rico, 536 00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:47,159 basically what it requires is the existence of an enterprise. 537 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,920 So in this circumstance, the enterprise is the relationship between 538 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,039 Wikipedia and the editors who are suppressing and creating suppressing 539 00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:59,920 true facts and creating disinformation. There has to be a pattern, 540 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,239 and of course you and I have talked to these 541 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,119 researchers and we know that there's a significant pattern of 542 00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:10,199 these people capturing these pages and then intentionally casting the 543 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,639 individuals in a false light. And so there is a 544 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:17,519 pattern that's happened again and again. There's participation. The editors 545 00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:21,719 and Google are participating in the undertaking, and this participation 546 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,760 has to cause, you know, an injury, and the injury 547 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,000 here is reputational injury. Primarily, there could be some other 548 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:34,400 injury to business or property in some circumstances, and so 549 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,760 that is what you know that those are the basics 550 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,519 of what civil rico is. And you know, I do 551 00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:42,119 think that that exists here. I think that there's a 552 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:48,199 viable case against Wikipedia and against the editors who have 553 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,679 captured these pages. And just so you know, I've talked 554 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,159 to you know, in my practice, we do a lot 555 00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:57,599 of analysis of how people's characters are characters injured, and 556 00:37:57,639 --> 00:38:00,360 so we have people that will you know, grub the 557 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,960 Internet and find all the negative references, find out how 558 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,559 many times those references have been repeated, and put a 559 00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:11,039 monetary award or a monetary figure associated with that reputational damage. 560 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,440 And they're also familiar with how Wikipedia works and what 561 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:17,760 we were able to. We had them look at a 562 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,440 very prominent person's profile page and they're like, man, that 563 00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:23,119 thing is locked down. You cannot get to it. And 564 00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:27,079 so even influential people are not influential, but people who 565 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,719 are capable in a business setting cannot get to any 566 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,599 of these pages because there's a group of people that 567 00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:35,159 have control of them and that manipulate them in a 568 00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:39,119 way to create a known disinformation to discredit and to 569 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,679 undermine the credibility and the character of people who are 570 00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:44,320 in the UAP space. And we all know who these 571 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,519 names are. It's all the top names, all the top people. 572 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:51,559 They are systematically being delegitimized and attacked by these editors. 573 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:55,920 And I would assume with Wikipedia's knowledge, I mean, Wikipedia 574 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,199 has to know that there are people that capture these pages. Yeah, right, 575 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:00,880 that's what I think. 576 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: Well, and as you mentioned, it's it's these editors. So 577 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:07,199 one of the issues, of course, is that these editors 578 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,280 hide behind you know, anonymity. You know, you've got the 579 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,000 you've got their screen names, but that is it. Could 580 00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:19,519 a RICO lawsuit compel Wikipedia to disclose the identity of 581 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:21,679 those editors during the discovery process? 582 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, you can get to that information. You know, 583 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,079 social media companies and tech companies are notoriously difficult or 584 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:33,639 that they resist subpoenas. But I think if you brought 585 00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:36,480 the lawsuit, you could definitely get that type of information 586 00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:38,960 and then join those those editors and the people that 587 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:46,239 are anonymously delegitimizing and defaming prominent people in the UAP space. 588 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,440 You could you could get the names and then add 589 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:50,239 them to the lawsuit. 590 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,639 Speaker 1: Now we have spoken before, you know, you and I 591 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:55,039 have chatted before. I think about when we started chatting 592 00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:58,800 about a year ago, and we talked about Susan Gerbick 593 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,320 and her group, the Gorilla Skeptics. It's a five oh 594 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,039 one c three run out of Salinas, California called about 595 00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:10,239 time uh and their systematic targeting of Wikipedia pages. And 596 00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:15,519 they literally have targeted, rewritten or whatnot around two thousand 597 00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:21,440 of these things. And my question is, would an organize, sorry, 598 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,840 what an organization like her is this about time project? 599 00:40:25,079 --> 00:40:26,800 Would they be liable as well? 600 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,559 Speaker 5: Yeah? I mean again, I don't want to. I don't 601 00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:33,760 want to defame Susan Gerbick or that organization on this show. 602 00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:38,079 But the investigation that I've undertaken in others, you know, 603 00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:41,320 or that they've informed me of, indicates that there are 604 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,800 organizations like that that are that could be liable as well, 605 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,280 because we know that they are behind this this effort 606 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,480 to delegitimize, to fame and cast prominent people in false light. 607 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,559 Speaker 1: And she has also bragged that she is legally protected 608 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:03,519 from damages and in a reco case, would someone that 609 00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:06,679 like We'll just say, theoretically, you know, runs an organization 610 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:13,119 that that does a sort of coordinated Wikipedia targeting page targeting. 611 00:41:13,639 --> 00:41:17,639 Would they be protected like Susan or even like Jimmy 612 00:41:17,679 --> 00:41:21,920 Wales personally? Can they hide behind sort of a corporate 613 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,880 veil if they're running a nonprofit protecting themselves from damages. 614 00:41:27,559 --> 00:41:30,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good question. Basically, the way it works 615 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,239 is if you're the if you're the president of a 616 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,199 company and you are you are out in a driving 617 00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:39,639 in your car, and you accidentally run a red light 618 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,079 and injure somebody, that's your company's liability. That's not necessarily 619 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,800 your personal liability. But if you do something, even if 620 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,599 you're operating under the shield of the corporation, where you 621 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,239 are speeding, sayer or drunk driving, then you would be 622 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,239 personally liable. So if a person who is an officer 623 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,079 or an employee of a company commits an independent tort, 624 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,199 and that would be in my example, front driving or speeding, 625 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,239 then they can be held personally liable. If they're merely negligent, 626 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,159 you know, maybe they're not liable, and you know that's 627 00:42:13,159 --> 00:42:16,280 a there are some subtleties in how that works. So 628 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,320 let's say that you're a person who runs an organization 629 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,480 that systematically delegitimizes the fames and cast prominent people in 630 00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:25,800 a false light, and you do so knowingly. That's not 631 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,400 an appropriate business purpose, you know, to surreptitiously gain control 632 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,480 of Wikipedia pages and delegitimize people on the Internet. So 633 00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:36,440 I would think that there is a chance for personal 634 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,199 liability for individuals who are engaged in this process of 635 00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:44,679 delegitimizing otherwise, you know, people of otherwise good character. 636 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: Todd, have you seen any indication that these Wikipedia editors 637 00:42:50,079 --> 00:42:55,039 or these organizations that run these these Wikipedia editor groups. 638 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,800 Do you have any indication or have heard any evidence 639 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,480 or potential evidence that these folks are being funded by 640 00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:03,639 some outside entity? 641 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 5: Uh? I have. I have looked at some of the 642 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,079 tax statements, and if you if you looked at those, 643 00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:11,559 you might interpret that that they are getting funded from 644 00:43:11,599 --> 00:43:15,119 an unknown third party. It's not clear where the money 645 00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:18,360 comes from. And uh, you know, generally you're not required 646 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,880 to disclose who your donors are. If you're a public charity, 647 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,199 you don't have to disclose that information. Uh, but you know, 648 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,679 you never know, So it's it's something to find out 649 00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:29,239 in litigation. 650 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:34,199 Speaker 1: I think in a reco case, what are the the 651 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,760 legal remedies. What you know, what sort of damages could 652 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,159 a defendant potentially expect. 653 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 5: So you can get your actual damages, which would be 654 00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:47,280 reputational harm, harmed to business or property. You could then 655 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,760 have those damn damages tripled, so they call it trouble damages. 656 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,320 And so you could get if you had a million 657 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,159 dollars in damages, they would give you three million dollars 658 00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:59,079 in damages, so they would triple those damages. And then 659 00:43:59,119 --> 00:44:02,280 on top of that, uh, there is an ability to 660 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,039 recover attorney fees expended in the process. So it's it's 661 00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:08,320 a it's a hammer for sure. But you know, like 662 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,039 so many things RICO, anytime you get involved in these 663 00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:14,920 big lawsuits. Uh, they you know, these companies have the 664 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,880 most powerful, huge law firms in the country, and so 665 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,760 they it's a big fight. You know, it's a it's 666 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,440 a taxing, serious fight, a legal fight, and uh, but 667 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,679 but it's it's significant undertaking to try to do something 668 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,960 like that, especially when you're dealing with a behemoth, you know, 669 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,000 a tech company that basically has unlimited resources, and you know, 670 00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:40,440 in fact, there'd probably be volunteer law firms that would 671 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,920 show up to you know, protect their First Amendment rights 672 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,800 or whatever, you know, whatever disguise or or lie they 673 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,679 want to use to to uh mislead you know, people 674 00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:52,559 about what they're actually doing. You know, what they're actually 675 00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:56,440 doing is controlling a narrative and creating a false narrative. 676 00:44:57,039 --> 00:44:59,880 And and then all these people who do this type 677 00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,000 of thing, you know, they all then say, well, it's 678 00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:04,280 just the truth in the First Amendment. And it's like, no, 679 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,159 you have a corrupt purpose and it's not just the 680 00:45:08,159 --> 00:45:11,199 First Amendment. The First Amendment is not designed to protect 681 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,559 a lie. Right, it's not designed to do that. And 682 00:45:14,639 --> 00:45:18,119 a person's reputation shouldn't be destroyed through lies. And then 683 00:45:18,159 --> 00:45:20,440 the law should be able to protect people and does 684 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:21,559 in many circumstances. 685 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,079 Speaker 1: And I'm guessing, of course, that this would be pretty 686 00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:27,880 expensive to litigate. What would be the best way to 687 00:45:28,039 --> 00:45:32,639 fund You'll say, if a bunch of folks wanted to 688 00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:36,920 hire you as a class action suit in this, what 689 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,239 would be the best way to fund this? Do you think? 690 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 5: Well, you see, this type of activity is normally covered 691 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,679 by what you would call a public interest law firm. 692 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,800 So there are you know, all different types religious, political, 693 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,360 and ever. You know, law firms in the city of Washington, 694 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,480 d C. Staffed with talented lawyers, and they will litigate 695 00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:00,679 on behalf of the public interest that doesn't really exist 696 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,840 for people involved in the UAP space. So so what 697 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,159 you would need to do is either find a generous 698 00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:11,199 donor who could you know, underwrite such litigation and then 699 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,280 also ask people who are involved to donate to a 700 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,039 to a legal fund, you know, and a legal fund 701 00:46:17,119 --> 00:46:20,800 could then be used to pay attorneys to pursue this 702 00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:23,880 and that That's pretty much what public interest law firms do. 703 00:46:24,639 --> 00:46:26,679 And you know, this would just be a way of 704 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:32,119 having the public interest of transparency, legitimacy, and truth related 705 00:46:32,119 --> 00:46:35,679 to people who are involved in the in the UAP field. 706 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,159 You know, you would you would try to have that, 707 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:39,920 and the way you would do that is through you know, 708 00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:44,800 legal protections and legal actions against organizations such as Wikipedia 709 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:50,679 that are either knowingly or unknowingly facilitating this this disinformation. 710 00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: And as I understand that, there's really sort of no 711 00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:59,360 way individual or individuals or organizations can protect themselves or 712 00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:02,719 from these sorts of attacks on Wikipedia. In other words, 713 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:08,159 I can't go and edit my Wikipedia page or delete stuff. 714 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,960 Is that how you understand it as well. 715 00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 5: Right right, Many people try to do that and then 716 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,599 the editors come back in and re edit out, the 717 00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:19,840 re edit back in the disinformation in the in the 718 00:47:20,639 --> 00:47:23,320 you know, the narrative, the false narrative that they're trying 719 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:23,800 to create. 720 00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:26,679 Speaker 1: And with all of this said, with everything that we've 721 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,239 seen that has gone on in the past couple of days, 722 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,320 and of course this long history of this sort of 723 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:39,199 targeted disinformation campaign or propaganda campaign, really, in my opinion, 724 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,239 with all of that said, what would your message be 725 00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:47,960 right now to any editors or organizations that are engaged 726 00:47:48,079 --> 00:47:49,360 in this type of behavior. 727 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 5: Stop, stop generating disinformation, stop creating false narratives. State the 728 00:47:56,039 --> 00:47:59,079 truth in Wikipedia. Serve the purpose of Wikipedia, you know, 729 00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:01,960 the purpose is is that these editors are in good 730 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,760 faith trying to get to the bottom of things and 731 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,880 provide truth and truthful updates on information for those who 732 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,880 are by the people and the topics in Wikipedia. And 733 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,119 I would also assume that or I would also suggest 734 00:48:14,119 --> 00:48:18,039 that they understand that they may be personally liable or 735 00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:22,360 corporately liable for their misconduct to the extent that can 736 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,320 be proven. And as you and I have discussed, we've 737 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:27,960 seen a lot of bad things out there, a lot 738 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,000 of bad facts about this manipulation and about you know, 739 00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:35,880 either taking down a profile or you know, telling lies 740 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,800 about people or casting people in a false light. That's 741 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,320 when you use true facts, but you manipulate them in 742 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,519 a way to create a false narrative. And so I 743 00:48:44,559 --> 00:48:48,800 think hopefully that you know, whether it's this instance or 744 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,519 in the future, that somebody's able to discipline the editors 745 00:48:53,519 --> 00:48:56,639 who are creating the false narratives and hold them to 746 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,840 account and hopefully clean that up so Wikipedia can meet 747 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,480 its intended purpose of being truthful about what it writes. 748 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,280 Speaker 1: Well, Todd, thank you so much for joining us. How 749 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,800 can victims of this sort of coordinated attacks, these coordinated 750 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,719 attacks on Wikipedia? How can folks reach out to you 751 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,079 for your legal help? 752 00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:19,280 Speaker 5: I'm pretty easy to find. Just just google my name 753 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,280 Todd McMurtry and I'll show up. My law firm has 754 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,920 a web page and contact and ability to contact me 755 00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:27,800 right from that web page. So yeah, I'd be happy 756 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,199 to chat with people if they were to call. 757 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,079 Speaker 1: Fantastic Well, Todd, thank you so much for your time. 758 00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:34,320 I know this was very last minute and you're very busy, 759 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,400 but we appreciate you coming on our shows, Tod mcmursery, 760 00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:43,559 ladies and gentlemen, thanks for joining. That was an incredibly, 761 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:48,679 incredibly eye opening interview. It brings me hope. It brings 762 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:55,320 me hope that legally these people can be held to account. Look, 763 00:49:56,519 --> 00:50:02,960 none of this is right. Of this is right. This 764 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:11,039 is a giant propaganda outfit. As Todd McMurtry said, records indicate, 765 00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:14,079 and I think this would be for the the five 766 00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:19,000 oh one C three, the what is it, the Center 767 00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:21,840 for Inquiry based out of Amherst, New York. A couple 768 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,320 of years ago, they had more than five million dollars 769 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:29,880 in revenue come in and as Todd and Todd said, 770 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,960 and I don't know if he was talking about c FI, 771 00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:35,039 but a lot of these organizations, it looks like when 772 00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:38,760 you look at their IRS tax filings that they are 773 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:44,599 receiving money from overseas. Probably money from CIA cutouts would 774 00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:49,639 be my guess. But this is not right. This flies 775 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:56,239 in the face of everything democracy stands for. It is immature, 776 00:50:57,199 --> 00:51:01,920 it is vindictive. You go and you you read what 777 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,239 this individual says in the talk pages, and let me 778 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:10,039 tell you something else. A lot of these debunkers that 779 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,920 do this on Wikipedia, they go and they try and 780 00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:19,039 hide their talk pages. There's a way of kind of 781 00:51:19,079 --> 00:51:21,880 burying them that if you do not know how to 782 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,920 find them, most people can't find them. Well, let me 783 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,880 tell you investigator Rob Heatherly, who has been on the 784 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,320 show three times and has been investigating the grilla skeptics 785 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,320 of Wikipedia and others for well over three years, who's 786 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:42,320 put in literally tens of thousands of hours, he has 787 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,320 found all of those talk pages and let me tell you, 788 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:51,239 I've read them, and they are damning. Any trial attorney 789 00:51:52,159 --> 00:51:55,960 that goes and looks at the talk they buried talk 790 00:51:56,039 --> 00:52:01,159 pages for any individual that was targeted by these groups 791 00:52:01,159 --> 00:52:07,920 on Wikipedia, I guarandamnt you will have a case. I 792 00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:12,519 guarandamn to you. They will have a defamation case. And moreover, 793 00:52:13,519 --> 00:52:16,440 I'm not a lawyer, but I would freaking bet my 794 00:52:16,599 --> 00:52:21,679 house on it when Todd McMurtry or any other high 795 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:28,559 powered attorney goes and looks at the literal thousands thousands 796 00:52:28,559 --> 00:52:34,480 of pages of evidence, Investigator Rob Heatherly has collected of 797 00:52:34,639 --> 00:52:40,159 this large group of Wikipedia editors, the majority of which 798 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:45,719 are from the guerrilla skeptics of Wikipedia. When an attorney 799 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:51,400 goes and looks at what was said on these talk pages. 800 00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:59,599 There will be zero doubt, zero doubt that the purpose 801 00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:06,000 behind these edits was to defame, zero doubt. There will 802 00:53:06,039 --> 00:53:10,920 be zero doubt that there has been racketeering and collusion. 803 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:19,559 I guarantee it. This cannot continue. This has been going 804 00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:24,840 on far too long. People that have gone to the 805 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:31,079 mat for this country, people like whistleblower David Grush, people 806 00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:37,679 like former intelligence official lou Elizondo, people like Christopher Mellon, 807 00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,800 people like PIPA Malmgrim, people like her dad, Harold Malmgram. 808 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:46,880 All of these folks that have served this country with distinction, 809 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,000 all of these folks that have put country before themselves. 810 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:56,760 This is the kind of bullshit that they have to endure. 811 00:53:57,199 --> 00:54:00,239 Doctor hal put Off, a scientist that has served this 812 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:05,639 country on on oodles of classified programs. They have vandalized 813 00:54:05,679 --> 00:54:08,159 his page. You go and you look at at uh 814 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,800 at a doctor Putoff's page. It is filled with edits 815 00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:18,599 from these debunkers. He doctor uh doctor Putoff went in 816 00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,679 himself to try and correct it, like even like correct 817 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,239 dates of of of scientific papers that that he has written. 818 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:32,760 And guess what these debunkers these editors, such as the 819 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,199 Grilla skeptics of Wikipedia, they have such seniority they can 820 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,519 kick his edits out. So no matter what Doctor Howe 821 00:54:41,519 --> 00:54:46,840 put Off does, he can't do a thing to fix it. 822 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:52,079 Lou Elizondo cannot go in and fix h fix his 823 00:54:52,199 --> 00:54:57,599 biographical information because Susan Gerbeck has it locked down. This 824 00:54:58,199 --> 00:55:03,519 is the information warfare that they are engaging in. And 825 00:55:03,599 --> 00:55:06,920 this has to stop, and it has to stop in 826 00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:11,599 one of two ways. It has to stop by everyone 827 00:55:11,679 --> 00:55:16,280 banding together and people that have the money to do 828 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,679 this to fund a class action reco lawsuit against these 829 00:55:20,679 --> 00:55:27,320 individuals and organizations and against the Wikimedia Foundation and the 830 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,880 owner co owner of Wikipedia. They need to sue them 831 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:37,760 in a in a civil reco case for racketeering. The 832 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,440 other the second thing that must happen. Members of Congress, 833 00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,679 Members of Congress, on both sides of the aisle, you 834 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,079 have to step up to the plate and do something 835 00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:55,599 about this. This cannot legally be allowed to happen. We can't. 836 00:55:55,639 --> 00:55:58,960 We can't just be in a position where people need 837 00:55:59,159 --> 00:56:02,280 need to cough up two hundred grand, five hundred grand 838 00:56:02,599 --> 00:56:06,519 to right this wrong. There needs to be Congressional legislation 839 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,280 that puts an end to this information warfare that is 840 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:19,119 occurring on Wikipedia because you cannot trust Wikipedia. Wikipedia is weaponized. 841 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,679 Members of Congress on both sides of the aisle, you 842 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:29,599 can change this. You can write by partisan legislation that 843 00:56:29,679 --> 00:56:34,239 prevents this, stops all of this from happening, because it's 844 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,320 running rampant millions. I think it was over two million 845 00:56:38,559 --> 00:56:44,599 edits that the grilla skeptics of Wikipedia have successfully made 846 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:50,920 on that platform. And my sources tell me that the 847 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,920 co founder of Wikipedia is well aware of the grilla 848 00:56:54,960 --> 00:57:00,719 skeptics and what these debunkers are doing. I don't think 849 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,559 that these folks are amateurs, at least the organizations are not. 850 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,480 There's no way that these people are spending this amount 851 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,159 of time on essentially a full time job and not 852 00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,800 getting paid by somebody from either a foreign government or 853 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:21,679 our own. We need to look into that. Congress needs 854 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:27,559 to pass legislation. There must be policy change, there must 855 00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:33,559 be a RICO lawsuit. Folks, if you enjoyed today's show, again, 856 00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:35,920 thank you for tuning in. We would really appreciate it 857 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,719 if you would hit the thumbs up and subscribe button, 858 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,440 leave comment, tell your friends about our Show, and again 859 00:57:41,679 --> 00:57:44,559 we are any We take our show about a week 860 00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:46,679 after we air this and put it on all of 861 00:57:46,719 --> 00:57:50,400 your favorite podcasting platforms. Tell your friends about us, and 862 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,480 we will have new great interviews coming up for you 863 00:57:54,599 --> 00:57:57,199 in the coming weeks on The Good Trouble Show