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Speaker 1: Kelly, thank you so much for taking the time to

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heal up and put that jersey back on.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to talk as much, but we'll pipe

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in from time to time.

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Speaker 1: I want to start it off with this, right here,

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are we living in a time of history where being

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famous means you're probably going to end up in a

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court case.

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 3: It seems like, yeah, something about celebrity and criminality and the.

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Speaker 2: System does go together.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's more public scrutiny now because

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of social media and everything's recorded and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So maybe what's.

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Speaker 1: Great about this book is the fact that you give

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us the opportunity to create our own pace. And it's

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not like a documentary where it's one picture after another

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after another after another and we're following them along. I

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get to digest this one at a time, one page.

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And the way that you guys do it, it's like

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you're sitting in the room going, let me tell you

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what I heard and what I resea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, I love that description of it. That's what

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we wanted.

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Speaker 1: You had to do some digging in, though, and you

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had to get into areas that the average person can't

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get into.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.

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Speaker 3: I mean I think this project took a while, you know,

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like the US trial was three years ago, but we

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wanted to be very careful and take the time to

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talk to everybody we could and gather as much context,

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background info as we could on this story because it's

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just it produced so many quick takes, and we just

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wanted to give it the space in the room to

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tell the full story.

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Speaker 1: We live in this age that is filled with clickbait,

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and I think that's another reason why I'm so attracted

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to this is that I can sit here and hold

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on to this book and not have to go to

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a website that's just is clickbait and you sit there

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and you go, do I believe it? Do I not

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believe it? But at least in your book, you're giving

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us fact.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a huge thing for us because this

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started as yeah, as you said, documentary film. But after

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we spent so much time at the trials, you know,

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sitting in the courtroom taking notes, digesting, we didn't have

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any phone, we weren't allowed to use our phones in

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the courtroom, that we realized that a book was really

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the right format for this and we needed to have

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the room to tell the story from the beginning to

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the end.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you think it's ended yet, but yeah.

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Speaker 1: I would love to see your handwritten notes.

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Speaker 2: Only.

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Speaker 1: The reason why is because I do daily write with

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the writing instrument. And the thing is, though, is that

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there are times I can't read what I've written because

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I've been writing so fast. Did you guys bump into that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely did.

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Speaker 3: We both had our kind of trial notebooks and they

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were just filled with scrawlings. And then when we went

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back to write this book, Yeah, that that happened a lot.

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It was like did you have this day? What did

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you write for this day? And we still have it all.

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It's amazing we have it all. We have a bunch

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of photos, you know, we have our footage. So we

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we covered this, yes, very very much. So we have

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a lot of physical media to show it, which is

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nice in this age.

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Speaker 1: Wow, were people easy to talk with? Were they Were

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they open to it or did you have to convince them?

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Speaker 3: I mean, when it depends on who you're who you're

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talking about, I think, uh, there were some people that

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were harder than others. I mean in terms of being

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at the trial and on the ground and speaking with

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spectators that was that was pretty you know, people were

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open and ready to talk to us for the most

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part because a lot of them had driven pretty far

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to be there and wanted to explain and explain that.

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Speaker 1: So, wow, I would love to know how how viewers

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of that trial and readers of your book are going

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to get along with each other because we all had

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our own perspective of what was taking place, and we all,

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you know, we were all the judge and the jury

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when it was on. Now you give us that chance

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to really break stuff down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's this case is so inflammatory, and

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we knew from the beginning, whatever we produce on this

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is going to have haters, It's going to have people

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loving it. It might inspire conspiracies, you know, because that's

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just what this case attracted, and that's kind of what

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big cases, what happens with big cases anyways. So we

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were ready for this kind of multitude of different opinions

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on it. But our aim was to put something down

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on paper in a book that just stands for itself

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and shows the rigorous reporting and time we took with this.

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And I don't I don't think anything else is I

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know that nothing else has done this yet with a

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specific trial.

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Speaker 1: My wife and I were so addicted to this trial

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to the point where we actually, you know, we were

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watching it on our smartphones while driving to a Bruger's

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ice cream in a different town. But we were not

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going to let go of any of that testimony.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that was that was us too, but

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I mean we were covering it. But a lot of

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people we talked to were pretty pretty addicted to just

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hearing these stories of these crazy celebrity kind of stories

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and anecdotes, and I think being able to hear these

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tidbits about someone like Johnny Depp who's lived in relative

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privacy for most of his life and suddenly we know,

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you know what brand toilet paper he uses or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I think you know.

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Speaker 3: It is that level of granular detail that was revealed

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in the trial that I think just captivated everybody.

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Speaker 1: Well, be honest with me here, since you were in

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that courtroom and you got to physically see all of

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those pictures that we also saw intelligience, what was the

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feeling in the room when we would see Johnny passed out?

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Because I would say there and the whoa, whoa, that's

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not the Johnny I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was that.

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Speaker 3: Being in the courtroom was a really kind of special

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experience because there was no I mean, there were many

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cameras in there, but we couldn't have our phones, and

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so it was a lot of just pure observation of

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what was going on in the gallery and the photo

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moments and the moments where they played the audiotapes or video.

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Those were moments where everybody was just totally wrapped and

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I think with those photos, you know, Johnny passed out

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or various photos of injuries, like, it's definitely a moment

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where everybody's looking at each other in the courtroom or

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having some kind of silent reaction because if you made

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noise you usually got kicked out.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, yeah, I'm shocked, but that they wouldn't let

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you have phones. But yet all I hear about in

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the p Diddy trial is that there are people in

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there with their phones tapping things into it as it's happening.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, this was.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I was kind of amazed at how strict

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they were there. There was a cop going up and

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down the aisle the entire time that testimony was happening,

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just looking for phones and ejecting people as soon as

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their phone was even out on the bench. So it

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was pretty hardcore in there.

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Speaker 1: The way that you guys have raised the bar on

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telling this story. To me, it's beyond journalism because first

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of all, I like books like this, and I like

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podcasts in the way that we're getting journalism where it's

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not like a hum in a bit, but what we're

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getting is the full story. Are we in a new

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age of storytelling when it comes to books like this.

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Speaker 2: I hope so.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, I think this is the type of book that

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Kelly and I like and respect and like to read,

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and we just wanted to do this story justice because

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it felt like before, during, and after the trial there

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was just a lot of kind of black and white

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coverage or black and white takes, and I think a

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lot of trepidation around tackling some of the more challenging

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questions at the heart of the case.

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Speaker 2: And also I think there was a lot of.

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Speaker 3: Maybe women telling women how to feel or think or

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you know, come up with an opinion about this case

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just based on kind of principles me too, principles and

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that was fascinating to us as women and as journalists.

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Speaker 2: Because I just we always emphasize.

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Speaker 3: You know, the raw rerecord, the transcripts, the evidence, Like

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you really need to immerse yourself in a case like

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this to be able to form a real opinion on it.

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Speaker 1: I think, please do not move. We've got more with

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Makiko Holy and Kelly Laudenberg coming up next the name

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of the book Hollywood Vampires. We're back with Makiko and Kelly.

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Didn't it also in a very how do I want

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to put this in a way of it took a

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subject that so many families do not talk about, but

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yet it was and could be still happening behind their

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closed doors. But Johnny and Amber's story brought things out

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and created special groups where they got together and talked

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about what they're facing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really inspired a lot of debate and conversation,

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and I think it that was interesting, Like when we

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were on the ground in Fairfax and staying at the

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hotel where a lot of Johnny's legal team was staying,

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but also a lot of I think fans and dictators

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were saying. We heard overheard a lot of conversations in

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the lobby and at the hotel restaurant of people talking

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about this, families talking about this, you know, it was

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it was a chance to talk about these kinds of things.

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And I think sadly the coverage, you know, could have

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been more nuanced. But we hope our book people can

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can take our book and really take something away from it.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever think about the armchair quarterback? And what

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I mean by that is is that you know, the

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court of public opinion in a digital age is so

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you know, it's like it can go in any direction.

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But then you've got those armchair quarterbacks who think they've

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got it down.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny. I haven't heard that that phrase before.

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I've heard like armchair sleuth or armchair detective. And you're

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saying this is this is somebody who's getting themselves kind

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of into the game. Oh yeah, yeah, themselves. And I

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think that that's that's kind of what social media facilitates,

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is this kind of new form of power that we

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have just by by having a social media account and

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being able to go into the public forum and say

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say what you think or spam what you think over

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and over again so that you're the loudest voice.

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Speaker 2: It's a it's a new new phenomenon with.

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Speaker 1: All of your research, could we put this back on

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the stand and and without anybody saying objection your honor

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this way? Would it? Would it change the end of

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the story?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I I'm hesitant to say, because I'm not

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a Looyer or anything like that, but we definitely in

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our book, uh, give a lot more context, background info,

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and just we just wanted to present what we thought,

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you know, was the most interesting tidbits of this story

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that weren't fully covered by the media, like it just

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and what we learned after the fact, after watching the trial,

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what we thought was important to know. So it's up

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to the reader, you know, I think we want to

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leave it up to the reader.

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Speaker 1: You bring up something that I'm not familiar with, but

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it was in oh Wow moment, Celebrity industrial complex.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that.

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Speaker 3: Was That was a kind of idea that came out

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when we realized, you know, this is a bigger thing

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in Hollywood. That is a bit of a playbook that

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we see where for instance, in the in the book,

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we have a whole chapter dedicated to dissecting the op

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ed at the heart of the US trial. And I

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think it's surprising to some people to learn like Amber

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didn't even draft the you know, the first draft of that.

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It was the ACLU And there were just many forces

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that came together to write that one piece that she

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was sued for. And I think it's it's it's kind

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of a fascinating thing to look deeper into.

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Speaker 1: When you sat down with those that you feature inside

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the story, did you record it to where maybe you're

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going to grow in the way of a documentary of

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your own or a podcast, because in side my head,

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I hear the voices that I'm picking up while I'm

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reading it, but I would love to hear their own

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vocal tones.

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Speaker 3: We have, I mean, because we worked on this for

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so many years, and we started as a documentary, but

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then when it became a book, we also so we

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have audio recordings, we have our notes, we have video

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and all that kind of thing. But because of the

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way the story went, we were just kind of like

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holding on to it and working on other projects. You know,

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other projects came and went over the years. But when

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the US trial came and we learned that it was

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going to be televised, we were like, we got we

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got to get there, we got to be there, and

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so then it just kind of went from there and

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it hasn't stopped. So I don't know if we've really

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thought about what we're going to do with our other

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our other material.

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Speaker 1: So how did you get inside? I mean, it wasn't

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a backstage pass, I mean, was it just you had

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to make sure that you were there at the right place,

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at the right time and basically shake hands with the

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right people.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean, it wasn't anything like The Godfather or

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anything like that. It was it was more along the

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lines of we were covering this, uh, you know, way

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before the US trial even happened. So once we knew

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it was happening, I just started writing to the courthouse

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and the judge, and we just wanted to make sure

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that we were able to be there and show that

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there was media interest in this. And then when it

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came time for the trial, it's we had earned our spot, essentially,

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is the way that I see it as just by

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persistence and.

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Speaker 2: Doing it ahead of time.

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Speaker 1: I'm such a people watcher. I'm just so jealous that

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you guys got to see the jury. We did not,

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and so therefore, I mean I would have been sitting

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there just watching their facial expressions, their body language and everything.

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And but then again that then that probably would have

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created judgment of me going, they're not in the game,

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They're they're checking out what's going on here?

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, okay, Well so I actually we had a

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limited kind of view of the jury to be honest.

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There there were certain sections of the courtroom that were

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very prominently on on TV, and we didn't want to

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be on TV, so we were in the very back

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row like kind of where like the court TV people were,

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so we couldn't really see the jury either. We were

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more just observing the legal teams and the people in

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the in the gallery and whoever was testifying.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, how do you guys feel knowing that people

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are comparing your book to Ronan Paraoh's book Catch and Kill.

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I mean I was addicted to that and the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I don't think we've heard that yet. Who's

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comparing it?

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Speaker 1: It's just doing my research that you know. It's it's

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like getting on there and and doing and finding out

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what people are saying, and so you pick up on it.

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And and so when someone says Ronan Pharaoh, I don't

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believe that it's clickbait. I believe that someone is saying it,

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because what you're doing is you're taking us into the

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physical one percent picture and experience, whereas you're not the

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reporter on the outside saying well, this is what we

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experienced today, Johnny, and that's ba blah blah. No, you

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take us into that story, just like Ronan did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We love that kind of inside the room feeling. And

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I think that's also kind of the old school thing

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with us, where we want to be there in person.

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We want to be looking and observing everything. Like we

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went to London so we could knock on doors and

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try to get interviews, but also so we could go

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to the hotel where they were engaged, go to the

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hotel where Amber stage during the UK trial. Like these

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are things that, like I just feel very important when

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you're telling a story like this to bring people in.

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Speaker 1: Is there a side of your personality that would like

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to take a short little journey over to Spain just

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to see if you can catch her on her life

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living a new life.

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Speaker 3: I well, I just I would want to respect her

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privacy and all of that. And I think for both

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of us, we're really proud of the book and we

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think it stands for itself. But you know, we're ready

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to start some new projects too.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that because I

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was gonna say, so, what's next? Because this is a

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story that's going to always grow. We're always gonna have

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our own opinion. Do you drop it and move on

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or what do you do?

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Speaker 2: I think we'll never drop it, you know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we worked on this for so long, and

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I think both of us learned a lot throughout the

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process about something we didn't think we're interested in. You know,

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neither of us were really into Hollywood or celebrity culture,

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but this took us on a journey through that world.

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So I mean, I think both of us are you know,

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artist writer types and are working on different projects and

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new new writing pieces and new research.

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Speaker 1: I think two positive things came out of this for

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Johnny Depp. Number One, we get we finally get to

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see his artwork he has not been afraid to show

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it off. And number two, he's a rock star. Now

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he looks like a rock star. He's playing with the

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big guys, and I swear to god, we didn't get

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to see that side of him until this court case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that was something we we gathered spending

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time with with him and his team is that music

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had become very important to him and and really a

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way for him to escape from the sad doul drums

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of the trial case. So yeah, when we were in Fairfax,

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he had all his guitars, like he was sitting in

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the shower every night and and and that's his passion,

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that's his love. So yeah, he really he really went

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back to that.

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Speaker 1: Wow, where can people go to find out more about

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the two of you? Because I mean, you're you're once

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again you're all about storytelling and story sharing and that

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is so valuable in this clickbait world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we have a website for the book. It's

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Hwood Vampires dot Com and there's some fun stuff on

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there and you can, you know.

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Speaker 2: Buy the book through the website.

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Speaker 3: But just for Kelly and I, you know, just stay

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tuned because we'll have some other projects coming out soon

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that we're excited about.

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Speaker 1: Wow, please come back to this show anytime in the future.

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The door is always going to be open for you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Sarah. We appreciate so much.

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Speaker 1: Hero Kelly, you feel better okay?

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Speaker 2: Oh, thanks Sarah.

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Speaker 1: Thank you