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It's because of you that I can put out the

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amount of material that I do. I can do what

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and everything else, the things that Thomas and I are

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doing together on condinal philosophy, it's all because of you.

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And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank

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you enough. So thank you. The Pekanyonashow dot com. Everything's there.

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I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingyona show.

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All right, Jay Burtons here, how you doing? Jay?

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Speaker 3: Doing great? Pete? Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: On of course. Carl dol here. Carl, Hello, sir. Well,

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I guess with the end of the year here, we're

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going to, uh remember somebody and maybe maybe we can

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think of other people that you know, we've we've lost

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this year. But z Man was somebody who was quickly becoming,

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you know, a part of you know. I mean he's

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always been, he's been at the forefront of this thing.

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But I mean he came to the OGC conference this year,

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I've seen him at American Renaissance, and you know, a

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bunch of us got to spend have spent time with him,

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and he tragically passed this year. And uh, I know

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Carl has been in a group chat with him for

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like years and has known him a lot longer than

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I have, at least digitally. So you know, I just

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thought we'd you know, talk about what you know, his

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life in his work, which is prolific, and yeah, just

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try to remember a good guy, a guy that we

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all like. So Carl, why don't you go first? You

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knew him the best out of all of us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's really interesting because when he and I met

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in person at the OGC National Conference in Tennessee. I

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went up to him and I was trying. I was

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orbiting around him every time I saw him, because you know,

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I knew what he looked like, et cetera. I didn't

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get to talk to him until after I gave my

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presentation on Saturday morning, and I just walked up to him,

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like he's mid conversation with someone else, and I was like,

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if I don't just interrupt this conversation to introduce myself,

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we'll never get a chance to actually talk, because you

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know how it was with him, as people swooped down

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on him anytime there was a break to just talk

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to him and pick his brain. And so I rudely

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interrupted a conversation, which I find appalling to do by

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making a reference to like an inside joke. Our joke

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was that now that he lived up in the hills

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of you know, West Virginia, he was drinking spider juice

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all day because he was talking about how he had

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all these spiders all over this house that he was

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cleaning out and everything like that, and he would be

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tipping one back after a long day of working in

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the fields and stuff like the slave that he was,

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and we just hit it off and we spent that

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whole night. I mean we talked to you, Pete. He

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and I were standing there and Jay also, We were

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standing there for like four or five hours just talking

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and it was like we and we had never met

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each other in person before, but we had both been

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on GAB since the very beginning of it, and we

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had been in a group chat for I did the

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math and it was like eight years eight and a

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half years something like that with this with a small

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group of people. And the thing with Chris is that

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like he was very giving of his time. He would

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he would talk to anyone who would who would listen.

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But as you also know that like he would, he

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he was pretty easy to interview because you ask him

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a couple questions and then he'll just talk for fifteen

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minutes and he'll string together this long series of like

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complex thoughts and we'll wrap everything up really nicely tied

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with the bow. And you know, so he was just

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an incredible guy to talk to, a great resource read

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all the time, he knew all the basics, and he

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would spend a lot of time talking with people saying,

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I've been in this thing for a really long time.

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I understand why your position is X, but what you

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have to understand is also why. But at the same time,

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like this year, he was blown away by how much

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mimetic progress had taken place in the past year, you know,

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like politically he didn't have a lot of hopes for

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the Trump administration, but he was amazed by how much

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they actually did do and was actually being done. But

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most importantly, the mindset that had shifted among people. He

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couldn't believe how much progress had been made in such

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a short time. So it was one of those things

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where he spent at least as much time talking about

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how like he felt almost like he didn't know how

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to what was going to happen next, because kind of

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the perspective that he developed after decades in this thing

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was like being turned on his head instantly. So very

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interesting conversation that we had there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I did not know z Men for as

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long as you did, Carl. I found him fairly late,

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I think off of an interview that he did with

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Pete if I'm not mistaken, And for me it was

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incredibly refreshing because Zieman was at all points. A realist.

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He was very reasonable and we very quickly hit it off.

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As you said earlier, he's very giving of his time

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and so when you know, my tiny little Twitter account

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just reached out and basically said, hey man, I'd love

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to talk sometime, he was very accommodating to me. And

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it was really interesting going back into his backlog, which

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you know, once I you know, i'd heard him on

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Peach Show and once I'd made contact, I just voraciously

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went back through, i mean years and years of podcasts

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and you know, years of essays. Several things struck me,

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which is one he had a lot of life experience,

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both in and outside of right wing circles, and that

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led to a very very helpful perspective. And I mean,

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even now, there are many of my ideas that aren't mine.

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There's emails, you know, I took them from him, and

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there's a great and this was fairly recent, you know,

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it was maybe six or nine months before he died,

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a really great podcast he did basically applying the same

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you know, kind of framing of Sam Francis's Beautiful Losers,

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not to the conservative movement but to the radical right,

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because he was saying these you do the same things.

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You want to be, you know, the purest guy on

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an island of one. But that's not how it works.

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You live in the real world. And so his his

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you know, radical politics, if we want to take that framing,

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was ironclad, right. You couldn't say he doesn't believe it,

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or you know, he's ignoring X, Y Z thing. But

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it was always tempered in a realism that let lend

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his criticism a lot of weight. I got to know

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him much better over the course of Honestly, I used

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to do these these kind of long Twitter spaces. I'd

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drive a lot for work, so I'd be on the

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road for three or four hours and I'd just have

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an open mic talk to people right to keep myself

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from falling asleep. And very often z Men would come

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in for just an hour or two and just talk.

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And he gave me very very good career advice. He

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was a small business owner. He did very well for

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himself there, and it was sort of the you know,

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the advice that someone who has you know, passed through

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the corporate world gave to someone who was, albeit in

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the process of crashing out of it. And it was

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incredibly helpful because he would follow up afterwards and be like,

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hey man, I remember you saying this, like how did

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that go? Which he didn't need to do. This was

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just a random Twitter space with a guy he had

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a few conversations with and to your point, Carl about

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you know, his kind of dim view version view of

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you know, the future, but mixed with a sort of

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unexpected hope in the kind of rising kind of I

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guess mimetic relevance of the right wing. He and I

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talked a lot at the OGC conference shortly before he passed.

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Don't have the best attention span, and so during a

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lot of the talks I would end up at the

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bar and there was a man and we talked for hours,

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just you know, kind of bullshitting just about life, you know,

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and also you know, more explicitly political things and two things.

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One I want to say he was incredibly generous with

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his money as well, because I did not pay for

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a drink the entire weekend. It started as like, oh,

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hey man, I'll pick it up. And then every time

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I'd go to the bar, he would like, with a

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sixth sense, look back over to the bartender, make eye

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contact and just put it on my tap, which I appreciate,

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you know, I'm not not above simple bribery. But also

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one of the things he said that was really interesting

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is he was talking about, you know, this kind of

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radically increased relevance of right wing ideas, you know, things

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that were relegated to kind of the shady underbelly of

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the Internet. Now he's you know, in a room surrounded

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by two hundred people plus their minds who are capable, competent,

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are not freaks by and large, who have imbibed this fully,

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it's sort of a given. And it was interesting because

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he was incredibly optimistic about that. He was and he

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said this to me, and I believe you as well,

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Carl very impressed with you know, the caliber of guys

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at the OGC, And it was honestly, it was really

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encouraging to see someone who'd spent so much time in

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the movement saying like, oh, like this is positive, this

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is a huge development. And you know, unfortunately he didn't

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get to see, you know, where that led. But I

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think it was sort of an interesting conversation to have,

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especially because and I don't remember if this was in

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my final episode with him, or was in the conversation afterwards.

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But he and I had this conversation which sort of

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had increased weight after his death, where he was basically

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talking about the fact that, like you know, he he

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did not have children, and he realized that he probably

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wasn't going to get to see the next thing. Now,

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who knows if he meant in thirty years or in five, right,

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I'm not trying to speculate there, but he was saying

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the conversation sort of turning this thing about being sort

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of like a profit out in the wilderness right ahead

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of the curve, someone who saw where things were going,

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but you know, sort of like Moses doesn't actually get

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to go into the Promised Land. And I don't know,

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I thought it was it was very poignant, you know,

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after like many of us, I was suddenly you know,

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notified of his death. Yeah. I have really nothing to

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say bad about you know, z Man. He was very

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generous to me personally, and his work is, as far

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as I'm concerned, you know, superlative.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was twenty twenty for me. I was coming

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back from Ron Paul's conference in Sexist which happened in

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November of twenty twenty, and Jeff dist and I were

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both on the same flight from we connected out of

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New Orleans and we were sitting there and the flight

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was delayed and we're just talking and I just looked

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at him and I said, this libertarian stuff, just if

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this year has taught us anything, it's just theory, it's

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just wishful thinking. It's you know, unless you're going to

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force it upon people, it's not going to happen. And

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you know, he just like as Jeff dist Is does,

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he just gets a stern look on his face and

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he goes, I don't know, maybe you should listen. There's

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this guy Charles Haywood, and there's this guy z Man,

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and maybe you should start listening to you know, listen

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to their shows and see what you get out of

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out of that. And I remember, you know, z Man

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was way more of a writer than a podcast or,

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although he was a a phenomenal podcaster. I mean, how

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anyone can do sixty minutes exactly every week on his

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own is the dot on the dot? So I read

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a couple of things while I was sitting there, and

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then I started listening to his podcast when went back

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a couple of years, and I just realized that this

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guy had a sense of humor that was familiar to

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me because I mean we were a couple of years,

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were a couple of years apart, and he one thing

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about him was I really wish he was here now,

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because we all realized that foreign policy is seems to

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be what the regime and even Trump's regime is most

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focused on. But he was not a foreign policy guy.

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He wasn't ignorant of foreign policy, and he could riff

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on foreign policy better than ninety nine percent of the

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comments or out there. But he was a domestic guy.

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He was talking about what the hell was happening here?

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He had race down pat He contrary to popular belief,

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he you know, there was a tribe out there that

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he was very well aware of, and after October seventh

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he started talking more about them publicly. You know, I've

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I've had people like if I bring up ze Men.

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When I brought up ze Men on Twitter, there'd be

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like one or two people who would come in there

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and go, you know, he was Russian and he was Jewish,

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and I can encourage those people that Canada. Canada isn't

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such a nice country anymore because of all the jeets,

256
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but their healthcare is amazing and you should probably seek

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it out. But z Man was when it came to domestic,

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when it came to race relations, when it came to

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nobody understood kan inc better than him. There is an

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episode from like a year ago where he goes through

261
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all of like the con Ink think tanks and just

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shreds them, tells you how much money they have in

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their coffers, how much money they get a year, ask

264
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questions like these guys don't get any money, how are

265
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they so powerful? And I mean he just he was

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a fountain of knowledge and he was a great He

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was a good person that if you had somebody who

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was just starting to think like we do, to point

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to one hundred percent, there was no anger in the man.

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He often did episodes on purpose where he would have

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a guinness before and have a guinness during, and those

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were the funniest, some of the funniest things you've ever

273
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heard in your life, because he was obviously getting buzzed

274
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and obviously just was you know, of course every episode

275
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there was going to be a belly laugh for something

276
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he said, but those episodes there were more than one.

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And you know, I mean I just after I met him,

278
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at a ran the first time, and then the second

279
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time got to hang out with him, and then the

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third time at OGC this year. I mean, he just

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he became like a member of the family. I mean,

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my wife was with me every time that we met,

283
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and they always talked. You know, he was personable and

284
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you know just I mean it really hurt when he

285
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when the news came down.

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Speaker 3: There was another and tier point on you know, his

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his ability to sort of skewer Kananc. There was a

288
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great episode he did. I think he was talking about

289
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Jonah Goldberg. If not, it's someone who's basically the same person,

290
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and he was going through You're kind of talking about like,

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you know, what is this guy's actual track record, Like

292
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what is he advocated for? How has that turned out?

293
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And then saying like, look like you know, if you

294
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if you were a you know, a stock analyst or

295
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whatever who had this kind of track record, you know,

296
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if you had if you were some actually important job

297
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you'd been fired decades ago, and then went into, as

298
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you've said, the kind of financial compensation where he's like, oh,

299
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like yeah, sure, you know this job you know pays

300
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two hundred grand a year, which in northern Virginia or

301
00:18:09,799 --> 00:18:11,799
New York isn't all that much. But he would go

302
00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:13,799
in and say, well, he's not just working there, he's

303
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also got this seat there, he sits on this, he

304
00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:18,480
sits on that, and say like, look like these guys

305
00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:23,759
are basically getting you know, millions of dollars to lie,

306
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,720
you know, to deliberately advocate for you know, destructive policy.

307
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There's another great one, and this I think was almost

308
00:18:30,839 --> 00:18:33,839
exactly a year ago. It was just when the whole

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conversation about USAID kicked off, where he was basically going

310
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through the kind of web of corruption, you know, where

311
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these grants are handed out and there's kickbacks, and as

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in many things, he was incredibly ahead of the curve.

313
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Right we're in kind of in the midst of this

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Somali scandal, and I mean it's been a month and

315
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a half. There are more developments every day, but you

316
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see that, you know, his analysis even you know, I

317
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think it was technically early twenty twenty five, but still,

318
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,359
you know, a year ago was incredibly predictive. He could

319
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,559
call shots at you know, a year out, and I

320
00:19:10,599 --> 00:19:13,559
think that his his work holds up even out of

321
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,960
in the immediate time because he would mention, you know,

322
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,039
the current affairs, he would mention what has happened this week,

323
00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:24,640
But it was always with with mind to kind of greater,

324
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,720
more notable trends, So it wasn't just the kind of

325
00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:31,400
daily grind. And that's what one kind of propelled me

326
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,799
to keep digging through his backlog, you know, like, oh

327
00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:35,839
this stuff still holds up. It's not just you know,

328
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,960
kind of summary of the day sort of stuff, but

329
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you start to pick out, you know, certain trends over time,

330
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,400
and you can see like, oh, like you know, he

331
00:19:43,559 --> 00:19:47,200
was on something two three years ahead, and you know,

332
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,400
to the listeners. That's why I'd encourage going back and

333
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,000
listening to his old stuff, because like it doesn't feel like,

334
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,200
you know, when you know, whatever social media algorithm picks

335
00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:58,319
up a post six months out of date, you're like, okay,

336
00:19:58,319 --> 00:20:01,079
well who cares about this? You cares about signal gate

337
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:06,799
anymore or something similarly stupid. There's actually, like genuine there's

338
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:09,400
a shelf life to it, and that's very difficult to do.

339
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,359
Pete Is, I'm sure you're aware, right, taking a conversation

340
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,079
about something relevant and also making it transcendent, I mean,

341
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that's an art form and you and I get to

342
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,960
cheat because we get to bring other people in and

343
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,839
sort of bounce our ideas off them or just let

344
00:20:21,839 --> 00:20:24,039
them talk for you know, an hour and five minutes

345
00:20:24,079 --> 00:20:27,359
and read a plug at the end. But z Man

346
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:34,160
was just effectively just going, you know, by himself. And yeah,

347
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it's incredibly impressive that he was able to in a

348
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,240
format which is difficult to do, produce as much as

349
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he did and produce as much of a high quality output.

350
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One of his favorite and this is kind of enduring.

351
00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:50,759
It's worked its way into the way I talk an

352
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:54,839
outside of you know, the internet is referring to and

353
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,440
he loved excoriating kind of what we call now like

354
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the PMC or the lap top class, you know, the

355
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,880
very you know, entitled sort of you know, progressive, upper

356
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,440
middle class people. I think you referred to them as

357
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,160
cloud people and everyone else as dirt people.

358
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Speaker 2: Yep.

359
00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 3: And it's such a simple, dry way to say it,

360
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,680
but I not only find it really funny, but it's

361
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,319
a very insightful term for that dynamic.

362
00:21:20,839 --> 00:21:25,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's interesting, you know, you pointed out he

363
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,799
was a great person that you could share his content

364
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:34,599
with anyone on any given topic. Like during COVID, he

365
00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:36,920
was one of the people that I was directing people to.

366
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,599
They would listen to his podcast because the average person

367
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,359
doesn't read anymore, Like there are people that will read blogs,

368
00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:47,519
but like we must be honest with ourselves, that's a

369
00:21:47,559 --> 00:21:50,960
small fraction of people, but they'll listen to a podcast.

370
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And the number of people from all over the kind

371
00:21:55,079 --> 00:22:00,680
of right leaning world that I, you know, directed to

372
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,400
his content and just totally lapped it up and be like, hey,

373
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I went back, you know, he said this interesting thing,

374
00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:10,480
So I listened to this, you know, this great podcast.

375
00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:13,519
Like you could if you want to read for a

376
00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:16,200
couple of weeks, all you have to do is go

377
00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:20,799
to his archive and look up James Burnham and you

378
00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:26,640
will you will read such incredible summaries of you know,

379
00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:29,960
all of his thought and you know what he was

380
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,680
really getting at, whether it's you know, regarding the managerial

381
00:22:33,799 --> 00:22:38,319
revolution or the Machiavellians, defenders of freedom, et cetera. Like

382
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:43,119
in a way that he's like he predigests it for

383
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:44,880
you so that when you go back and you read

384
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,440
those books, they're they're an easier read because he's he's

385
00:22:49,519 --> 00:22:55,279
helping make connections because you didn't read necessarily like five

386
00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:01,960
source books on political theory that Zmai did that James

387
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,160
Burnham also read. And he's like Burnham came out of

388
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,119
this school and da da da da da dah, which

389
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,240
is why you know this. These pieces influenced this. And

390
00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:13,240
so if you if you don't know this, you're not

391
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,400
going to get it automatically. Well, do you want to

392
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,559
read those five books? You know you can and it'll

393
00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:22,440
be enriching to do. So it also might be kind

394
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,920
of a waste of time other than what you get

395
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,920
out of, you know, than reading Burnham. And so he

396
00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:31,160
was great for that where he could you could just

397
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,960
ask him, Hey, what what are some books that I

398
00:23:34,039 --> 00:23:38,519
need to read about Burnham? And he'll he'll tell you

399
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,480
and so that you can understand him. And then you

400
00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:45,200
go back and you talked about it all throughout throughout

401
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,799
his catalog. There there there was this other thing that

402
00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:53,279
he would that he would do and he would talk

403
00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:58,400
about this sometimes in the podcast sometimes uh uh, you know,

404
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,759
in group chats, and and he was in a lot

405
00:24:01,799 --> 00:24:05,039
of group chats. But he would talk about the process

406
00:24:05,079 --> 00:24:07,599
of writing and the discipline and Jay, you and I

407
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,920
were just talking about this a couple of days ago.

408
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:17,720
Where you know, every everyone who takes their their writing seriously,

409
00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:20,480
you want you want to be a really good representative

410
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:24,519
of your work, and you want to really nail it well.

411
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:31,640
Z Man wrote five articles a week plus a podcast

412
00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:34,440
every single week, and then he would take a break

413
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,759
at like the end of the year, where there would

414
00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:42,799
be very light content for like two weeks. But I

415
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,000
was talking to him one time and and what he

416
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,160
said was, I think I shared some some criticism that

417
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:56,920
someone made that sometimes he played fast and loose with

418
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,519
with details, and he was always doing it hardly to

419
00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:06,240
provoke people, but also to handwave nonsense, right, so like,

420
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:08,960
you don't go into like, for example, Pete, like you

421
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:12,519
were in the right position to hear him brutalize libertarianism.

422
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,599
Well not even to brutalize it, but to just dismiss it.

423
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,839
He was completely dismissive of it. And he would say

424
00:25:20,319 --> 00:25:26,960
libertarianism is astrology for suburban white boys, and you know,

425
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:30,839
it's it's pretty accurate. And people would say no, like

426
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,839
and then hit him with all this theory and he's like, yeah,

427
00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:37,160
but that theory doesn't work. It's nonsense. So anyway, he

428
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,839
would he would do this to provoke people. But then

429
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,480
the other thing also is that he would have a

430
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,680
deadline and he would write these articles before starting his

431
00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:50,880
work day, and he worked for himself, and then he

432
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,680
would be very lightly online for the rest of the

433
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,160
day until the evening, right because he'd be working. And

434
00:25:58,279 --> 00:25:59,920
I asked him one time, like how do you do it?

435
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,680
And he said, well, what you do is you sit

436
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,880
down and you write, and you don't worry too much

437
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,759
about editing it, and then you send it and you

438
00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:11,839
move on. He's like, think of it like a post

439
00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:14,880
on a forum in the old days, like you get

440
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,240
you get your thoughts out, and some you'll put a

441
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,759
little more work into it and you'll have some references

442
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:22,200
so that it can be more thorough, but otherwise you

443
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,640
just send it out into the world. And because what

444
00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:29,319
he found was that there were posts and shows that

445
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,799
he did that he put a ton of effort into,

446
00:26:31,839 --> 00:26:34,359
but he wasn't like really happy with it. That other

447
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,319
people loved and they got a lot out of it,

448
00:26:36,519 --> 00:26:38,559
and he said, you never know what's going to hit,

449
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,519
so just send it and it's and it's really good.

450
00:26:42,599 --> 00:26:45,640
Like there's a point where you put enough work into

451
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,000
it that it's not going to improve anymore, so you

452
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,720
just send it and like maybe maybe the way to uh,

453
00:26:54,039 --> 00:26:56,720
you know, really communicate what you want to do is

454
00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,279
after doing this really detailed, deep dive and all in

455
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:07,440
response to some you know, conservative ink polemic nonsense, is

456
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,640
to just wrap it up by just saying, you know,

457
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,200
after all that what we need to be honest is

458
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,680
that this person is just a liar, and you know,

459
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,279
underscore that and move on. So his his his philosophy

460
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:24,359
was really interesting in that fashion because originally he was

461
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,279
a poster. That's that's how he got his start. Like

462
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:31,079
people would ask him, you know, people suggested that he

463
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,319
start a blog because he would be in the comments sections,

464
00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:38,960
in the oughts of like all the you know, the

465
00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:45,119
all the stupid libertarian think tank websites, like excoriating people,

466
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,400
you know, excoriating these articles in the comments. And he'd

467
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,960
have people reach out to him, people who became allies,

468
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,839
and they would say, we got to the point where

469
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:56,640
we would dread and we would talk amongst ourselves. We

470
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,599
would dread seeing z Man in the comments because he

471
00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:05,839
would just brutalize us and just take over the whole

472
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:07,920
flow of things like he was one of the first

473
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,440
people to be doing that and really create a real

474
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:14,039
online right that hadn't been there before.

475
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,039
Speaker 3: Just in aside, Carl, it seems like an awfully specific

476
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:24,680
example you've used there someone who has an article or

477
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,519
maybe several that they can't quite get out. But I

478
00:28:28,519 --> 00:28:31,240
think it's important as well to talk about you know,

479
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:35,119
you mentioned, you know, his work ethic, which is certainly notable,

480
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,920
but he did have sort of this like iterative process

481
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,759
with that where you know, you'd see an idea come up,

482
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,319
and then two or three weeks later you'd get a better,

483
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,160
more detailed version of it. And so sometimes it is

484
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,079
sort of interesting to listen through, you know, a couple

485
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,599
episodes all in a row, because he'll touch on certain

486
00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:57,880
things like, as you've you know, mentioned, he was speaking

487
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,160
much more frankly, much more directly about Israel after October seventh,

488
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,519
and there was sort of this interesting run where, you know,

489
00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:10,480
it was reacting to if you guys remember the uh

490
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,759
Ted CRU's appearance on Tucker you know, where he sort

491
00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:17,799
of blas aly said, you know, I got into office

492
00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:20,440
with the intention of being, you know, the strongest supporter

493
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,079
of Israel. And he goes through this, he examines the

494
00:29:23,079 --> 00:29:25,160
same thing from kind of multiple angles, you know, he

495
00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:27,920
you know, one week would be talking about and you

496
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,400
see this in his essays as well. Obviously, the you know,

497
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,680
the Christian Zion is a angle. But another one which

498
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,839
I think was really interesting is he was a very

499
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,720
accurate critic of like the blob as he would call it,

500
00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:41,640
the swamp as the Maga people do, which is and

501
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,480
he would bring this up all the time. He's like, look, like,

502
00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:45,960
the fact is less than ten percent of senators are

503
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,640
in competitive seats, so it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter

504
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,039
that what they say is is crazy to you because

505
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,799
they're not at risk. They're playing to their base, they're

506
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:58,480
playing to what matters to them. You know, in case

507
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,839
of Ted Cruz, it's people with a lot of in Dallas,

508
00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:04,119
and they don't really care about what you care about.

509
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,839
And I think that, you know, that that sort of

510
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,559
incisive way that he cut through a lot of you know,

511
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,079
both kind of culture war bs but also just kind

512
00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:17,319
of daily political grind let his critique a lot more

513
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:20,039
weight because it's like, okay, like and you mentioned earlier,

514
00:30:20,079 --> 00:30:22,720
Pete that he it wouldn't really get angry, and he

515
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:25,839
wouldn't sort of descend into the kind of rage bait

516
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,839
nature of it. And because of that he could keep

517
00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:32,960
a really important distance talking about politics, which you know,

518
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,559
again made his thoughts worth reading, his his podcast worth

519
00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:41,279
listening to, because at a certain point it's like, Okay,

520
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,880
how many people can you listen to get mad about something? Okay?

521
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,599
Like that? That's and that activates your monkey brain. That's

522
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,720
something to do. You know, it's probably entertaining, I guess,

523
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,200
but if you're actually interested in learning, like figuring out

524
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,000
how the system works, what's the best way to attack it? Well,

525
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,480
a guy who says like, yeah, no it that cycle

526
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,440
is sort of feeding into the machine. You know, you're

527
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,119
doing what you're supposed to do. And I think that

528
00:31:06,119 --> 00:31:09,160
that's a like it's all too rare, you know, even

529
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,240
among you know, self described dissidents. You know, there's a

530
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,519
great deal of you know, kind of rage and anger,

531
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:18,799
which is certainly understandable, but it's not necessarily helpful in

532
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,480
all in all times, uh, I think that you know,

533
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,200
you mentioned Pete that he was very very funny. His

534
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:31,559
humor is incredibly dry, and oftentimes he would sort of

535
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:34,319
just let something hang. And you mentioned Carl right, that

536
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:38,039
he would sort of deliberately, you know, provoke online autists

537
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:41,160
by messing up in your details. There were many things

538
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,880
like that where he would do it specifically to get

539
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:44,559
a rise of.

540
00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: People mispronunciations oh yeah, yeah, yeah, over and over again.

541
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,799
It was so awesome. He would he would purposely pronounce

542
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:58,559
Happa's name happy just to piss off the Libertarians.

543
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: Which I think is like, it's incredibly funny. And he'd

544
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:03,960
do it enough that like the first time it's a

545
00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:06,680
chuckle by, like the ten or twelfth time, where he's

546
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,480
repeating it multiple times in a sentence, he's like crying,

547
00:32:09,599 --> 00:32:13,559
laughing so again. Like I that that aspect of his

548
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,799
work I guess can't be understated either.

549
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: Pete, I can't hear you.

550
00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, sorry, I muted it out. One of the

551
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,799
things he told me that I think a lot of

552
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:29,920
people didn't realize was that on a weekly basis, his

553
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:36,240
website got hundreds of thousands of unique visitors. And he

554
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,079
said he worked in he lived in the Washington, DC area,

555
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:46,640
He lived in Lagos, and he was constantly working in Washington,

556
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,319
d C. And he was constantly talking to people and

557
00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:52,599
people on the Hill read his stuff all the time.

558
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,400
I mean, like powerful people were following him and reading him,

559
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,279
and he would get he would get this confirm from

560
00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:01,319
people all the time.

561
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:03,319
Speaker 2: You know.

562
00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: I think Carl mentioned it that he he worked a

563
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,240
full time job. Well, I mean, I don't know that

564
00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:10,839
he worked for anyone else. I think he may have

565
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,480
been an independent contractor. But he worked full time and

566
00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:18,839
then did this full time. Now, he didn't have a wife,

567
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,759
he didn't have kids, so he's able to do that.

568
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,799
But everyone, you know, all three of us know that

569
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,480
there comes a point at some time where you're going

570
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:32,160
to be like you sit down to write something and

571
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,640
you're like, I got nothing, I got nothing, and I'm

572
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,440
just I have to bail out. You know, there's there's

573
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,440
nothing I have to write. He always had something to

574
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,240
write about, and he always he always injected at least

575
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,000
one or two things into those blog posts and into

576
00:33:50,119 --> 00:33:54,519
his episodes, especially his episodes that you didn't know that

577
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,880
you just you're like, oh wow, where did that come from?

578
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:07,720
He is his understanding of how the right, well the

579
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:13,239
quote unquote right, the GOP, the regime right, how they

580
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,559
were just they were just rehashing ideas from the progressives

581
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,000
and like everything that they were doing. Like there's this

582
00:34:22,079 --> 00:34:27,280
famous saying about how conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit.

583
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:27,519
Speaker 2: No.

584
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,519
Speaker 1: I mean in some cases sure, but in a lot

585
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:36,239
of cases, the GOP and the regime right is just

586
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,880
looking at like things that the left is doing and

587
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,679
they try to repackage it in their own way to

588
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,920
make it work. And it's just not going to work

589
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,800
because the left is going to do it better. Because

590
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,719
it is a leftist idea, you can't do it. And

591
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,000
if they did come up with something on their own,

592
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:59,920
I means so much of the things that like conservatives

593
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:03,719
libertarian people brag about, like oh, you know, we were

594
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,039
four gay marriage before anyone else was. It's like, well yeah,

595
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:09,880
and then it finally got adopted and it got adopted

596
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,079
into the regime. How's that working out? How's you know

597
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,159
all the all the degenerate stuff that you've you know,

598
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,920
open borders, how did that work out? Sure? You know

599
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:24,800
you Cato, the Cato Institute is the open borders Institute.

600
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,320
Whenever you see somebody on TV or you see a

601
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,599
politician quoting how open borders is going to help the

602
00:35:33,599 --> 00:35:36,400
economy in this way, that's coming directly from Cato. That's

603
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,360
that's directly coming from Alex star wars name on Twitter,

604
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,760
and people don't realize just how much of the enemy

605
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,039
these are. And then libertarian you know then like you know,

606
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:50,400
Auburn libertarians will be like, well, that's not real libertarianism.

607
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,599
And then you know, you realize how much libertarianism is

608
00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:54,960
like communism, because you know that's all the communists say. Well,

609
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,639
you know, so if the Union wasn't real commune and

610
00:35:56,639 --> 00:36:00,840
it's just all this, well that wasn't real this, that

611
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,960
wasn't real that. And you know, ze Man was able

612
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:11,119
to show you how just exactly how horrible the right is,

613
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,559
not the right, the GOP, the regime Republicans, how horrible

614
00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:18,800
they are, and how much more of an enemy they

615
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,000
are to you than the actual left was. I mean

616
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,599
that's where we when we talk about when when Stormy's

617
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:27,719
out there going the you know, the the real enemy

618
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,199
of any right wing revolution as a conservative, I mean

619
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:36,480
z Man was saying that, you know years ago, yeah.

620
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, he he he would actually go to these conferences

621
00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:45,840
in DC all the time, and and and would know

622
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:47,960
all these people and would talk to all these people,

623
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,599
these writers, and and so I think what what he

624
00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:57,440
was really good at was de mythologizing them, like taking

625
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,519
away this fake credibility out there in you know, among

626
00:37:02,559 --> 00:37:06,280
the hoy poloi who who are very online and who

627
00:37:06,519 --> 00:37:09,800
follow politics closely, and he's like, you're the only people

628
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,280
that pay attention to these people other than themselves, Like nobody,

629
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,199
nobody cares about who these people are. And he would

630
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,000
explain that the way that it worked in really simple terms,

631
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:23,760
like Pete, you were talking about how he would go

632
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,800
through the money and all the different jobs and sinecures

633
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,760
that would people would would have and you know, one

634
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,920
of the I'll just I'll just come right out and

635
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,280
talk about it. You know, we we've kind of danced

636
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,440
around his uh, his dalliances and interactions with a certain

637
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:49,280
tribe and a lot of people. He would basically explain

638
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:55,119
to them that they fundamentally didn't understand their own thought

639
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,360
process when it came to how much they empowered their

640
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,320
enemies because they you know, he would call it magic

641
00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:07,400
jew theory a lot of the time, as he'd say,

642
00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:12,239
you know, these people are as you say all the time, Pete,

643
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,760
these people are the biggest Zionists and you know, Jewish

644
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,440
supremacists in the world. But they just call themselves anti semites.

645
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:24,880
And we see this all the time right now. Despite everything,

646
00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:28,079
you have people acting like they have some secret knowledge

647
00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:31,199
and that there's some they're they're they're part of this

648
00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:33,880
thing where they have to whisper it. And and it's

649
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:41,719
like the the way that he approaches every topic in

650
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:47,360
this kind of abstract while still direct fashion, but but

651
00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:51,679
going through the steps was something that people didn't have

652
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,119
patients for, and so they would lose patience with him.

653
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,159
But he also would call out grifters all the time,

654
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,559
and there were so many grifters, and you know, and

655
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:03,800
and when things are right, you know, in right wing

656
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,079
and kind of fringe circles, like people are desperate for

657
00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:11,880
anyone who says something that they agree with that they

658
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,519
feel like they're they're a voice in the wilderness. And oh,

659
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:18,639
I'm not alone because you know so and so said

660
00:39:18,639 --> 00:39:21,440
this thing. And he would point out, no, this person

661
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:24,960
has a history, and you have to be aware of

662
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,320
the kind of circumstances that they're setting up. Like he

663
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,920
would go meet with people all over the country all

664
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,039
the time, and all these different organizations, and he would

665
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:37,760
then come back and you know, be candid in private

666
00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:40,800
about how they were, and most of the time it

667
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,880
was there were a lot of great people there, but

668
00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:46,079
there there are some grifters that are trying to steer

669
00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:50,400
them wrong. And you know, one of the strongest attacks

670
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,039
that I ever heard against him were from people that

671
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,559
were affiliated with these grifters. He would constantly point out

672
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,039
how you've seen some of this in the OGC, not

673
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,480
in the OGC and from OGC members, but in other

674
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:11,559
organizations which I will leave unmentioned, but there are there's

675
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:15,199
outreach and certain rules that these people have because they

676
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,000
think that they're they're competing for the same pool of

677
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:25,320
members rather than it being a growing thing. And the

678
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,960
way that you actually behave when when it comes to

679
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,239
either the way you deal with your membership or you

680
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,920
deal with organizations, you see them as competing factions and

681
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,239
you're just trying to go after the same people. And

682
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,519
he was very good about pointing out like grifter a

683
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,800
who gets all this online fame and gets elevated by

684
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,960
the media, you know, to be the spokesman for all

685
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,840
of us, even though they're a disaster, Like, can't you

686
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,159
people connect the dots on this? So it was this

687
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:05,719
intelligent framing where he would basically say you're being owned

688
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,239
and run by the people that you're accurately recognizing or

689
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,760
a problem, but you're letting them defeat you. And we

690
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,599
see this all the time, and we see it's amazing

691
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:17,760
that we see it in twenty twenty five as nakedly

692
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,400
as we do. But it shows how poisoned the discourse

693
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,719
has been for generations on the right. And it comes

694
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:32,960
from this losing loser attitude that people develop, you know,

695
00:41:33,079 --> 00:41:36,239
and where they're like, I have to keep losing otherwise

696
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,599
people won't realize how serious I am and how like

697
00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:42,159
how much of a purist I am. And he would

698
00:41:42,199 --> 00:41:43,719
call that out and people hated it.

699
00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we might be. The most recent version

700
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,440
is what I was referencing earlier, and I can't remember

701
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,000
who I know he I guess I shouldn't say the

702
00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:56,079
names of the people he was going after in particular,

703
00:41:56,119 --> 00:41:59,480
but you can probably guess. And this was you know,

704
00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:03,800
even relatively you know late, you know, this was in

705
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,280
probably late twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five, the last

706
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,719
time he really went on a tear on this subject.

707
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,599
And he was really good at well as picking at

708
00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:16,760
the kind of like like kind of like high school

709
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,639
lunchroom behavior. You know you often see on the right

710
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:22,360
where you know, the goal is not actually to win,

711
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,639
the goal is to be the specialist boy of them all.

712
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,960
You know, the goal is to you know, be the

713
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,800
most you know, dissident and to be sort of you know,

714
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,760
the king of a of a of an ash heap.

715
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,480
And I think that he you know, very accurately to

716
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:36,960
your point, carl said, like you know, pointed out that

717
00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:39,760
kind of gap between stated and revealed preference, right what

718
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,480
you say you do versus what you actually act like,

719
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,599
and that role is much needed. And you know, we've

720
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:50,880
sort of seen this post, you know, the death of

721
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,400
Charlie Kirk in the more establishment conservative circles where that

722
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,360
event has you know, almost completely become just a way

723
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,400
to you know, signal four and compete for status. You know,

724
00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:04,559
if you follow a lot of these people, you see

725
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,199
it's basically whatever they wanted to say anyway. And this

726
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,480
is what Charlie Kirk told me before he died, or

727
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:14,440
Charlie Kirk actually thought this. And you've seen that same behavior,

728
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,800
that same very human behavior. And you know, I think

729
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,199
that you know, one of the things that you know,

730
00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:25,079
Led really added a lot to his work was a

731
00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:29,159
very kind of realist and grounded understanding of human nature.

732
00:43:29,679 --> 00:43:31,880
You know, one of his later shows was on slavery,

733
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,519
and that was something that came up there. Or He's

734
00:43:33,519 --> 00:43:35,599
basically like, well, regardless of how you feel on this,

735
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:38,320
this is something humans do, and this has been done many,

736
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,320
many times. Talking about that is you know, it's not

737
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,400
like some unique moral ill of you know, the American

738
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,800
Antebellum South. But also he applied that same attitude that like,

739
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,559
look like humans are, there's a definite human nature too.

740
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,599
A lot of his social analysis in a way that

741
00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:58,760
I think was to be honest, made it even better.

742
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that he was constantly

743
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:06,840
fighting against, and this is just echoing everything you said,

744
00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:15,239
was the hating one group so much that you blackpill

745
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,760
and you don't do anything. I mean, we see this

746
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,599
all the time. I mean, I'm ninety eight episodes into

747
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:29,400
a book about the Jewish experience Russians and their experience

748
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,760
with Jews in their country. I'm not one of these

749
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,159
people who is so caught up in it that I

750
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,159
let it control everything in my life. I'm still out

751
00:44:41,159 --> 00:44:44,159
there doing everything. I'm still out there telling people that

752
00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:51,039
you can. Yeah, sure, unbelievable over represented power basically control

753
00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:53,880
our government. That doesn't mean you can't thrive. That doesn't

754
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,280
mean you can't win. That doesn't mean that we can't

755
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,400
we're not going to win. That doesn't mean that they're

756
00:45:01,079 --> 00:45:04,159
in my opinion, they were defeated. They've lost. They just

757
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:09,199
don't know it yet. People have people are abandoning any

758
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:14,000
kind of almost kind of reverence that has been built

759
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:18,239
built around this group of people since since the war,

760
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,880
since World War Two. And I think that's one of

761
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,159
the reasons why he didn't concentrate on that group so much.

762
00:45:26,199 --> 00:45:28,800
I mean, I'm looking at like that. One of the

763
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,639
last episodes he did, the third to the last episode

764
00:45:31,639 --> 00:45:34,559
he did, was called in Search of Anti Semitism, and

765
00:45:34,599 --> 00:45:37,360
it was just basically calling out one of his favorite

766
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,960
whipping boys was William Buckley. I mean, how could it

767
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,400
not be and he I mean, was there anybody in

768
00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:48,880
our thing who knew more about Buckley than he did?

769
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:52,960
I mean he knew everything about the guy. Yeah, no,

770
00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:56,760
you know, and you know he would do episodes like

771
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,760
that where he would be like, yeah, overrepresented, I mean,

772
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:03,840
taking guys, taking our guys out and everything. But this

773
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,400
is a new day. This is a new day and

774
00:46:06,519 --> 00:46:10,360
going forward. You know, we can't sit back. I mean,

775
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:16,159
this is a guy who was insanely successful in his

776
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,599
personal life. I mean he could. I mean he had

777
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,880
exotic animals. I don't know if people know that, but

778
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,840
he had he owned exotic animals.

779
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: Wild giant cats, he can imagine.

780
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: Well, and I and one of our tray say, uh,

781
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,119
somewhat socially lubricated discussions at the bar.

782
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:38,079
Speaker 2: Uh.

783
00:46:38,119 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 3: He ran me down the history of owning giant cats,

784
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,320
and he had like scars and injuries from being you know,

785
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,239
playfully attacked by like a wild animal, and look like

786
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,800
I liked the guy a lot, but my conclusion from

787
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,239
that was you are a crazy person, like this is

788
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,280
how people get eaten. And he was unbothered by that.

789
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,199
I mean, do you have credit?

790
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,039
Speaker 2: I mean he lived in Baltimore proper, like the ghetto,

791
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,760
and he lived there for years. And there was one

792
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,880
point where people were threatening to docks him and he said,

793
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,079
I literally just pulled up my home address and sent

794
00:47:17,159 --> 00:47:20,119
it to them and said, come come on down, come

795
00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:22,320
on down to Baltimore. And they look at it and

796
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,400
they're like, oh my god. I would when he lived

797
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,159
in one of these little pockets where like his street

798
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,480
was okay, but like every night he would hear gunshots.

799
00:47:32,599 --> 00:47:35,159
And when he finally moved out to West Virginia, he

800
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,559
was like, why did I wait so long to do this?

801
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:40,880
Why did I wait so long?

802
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 3: It was kind of funny because you know, it's sort

803
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,119
of I feel like this is pretty common. I just

804
00:47:48,159 --> 00:47:51,800
don't concern myself with anyone's docks at all, and so

805
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,719
I had genuinely no idea that docs had happened until

806
00:47:56,199 --> 00:47:58,239
he had. I think it was a part of a

807
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,280
question and answer episode, but someone you know wrote in

808
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,440
or it was just on his mind. He was talking about,

809
00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:07,159
you know, how to deal with the media, and one

810
00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:09,239
of the things he said that was really funny is

811
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:10,800
he's like, yeah, well they what they want is they

812
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,480
want a reaction. They want to see you squirm. And so,

813
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,280
you know, when he said, when I had reporters saying

814
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,239
isn't this where you live? Or you know, is it

815
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,639
this your name, he just wouldn't respond. And he'd never

816
00:48:22,679 --> 00:48:26,360
mentioned his content, he never mentioned it anywhere. And he's like, yeah,

817
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,719
I'd follow them on Twitter and I'd see them freaking

818
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,840
out about it like, just try to post it over

819
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,440
and over and over again to get it to stick.

820
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:35,960
And he's like, I just freeze them out and again.

821
00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:37,920
You see both like a sense of humor there where

822
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,360
it's like he got some satisfaction of just driving these

823
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,559
these cretans wild. But I always thought that was a

824
00:48:43,639 --> 00:48:47,519
particularly good strategy, you know, And I think as someone

825
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:50,559
like many of us, who has you know, face docksing

826
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,599
or you know, kind of negative repercussions d'ed online behavior,

827
00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:57,880
that attitude has served me well. And I think that,

828
00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:00,519
you know, as you said, he had a very wide,

829
00:49:01,199 --> 00:49:04,960
very large audience, and so I'd be surprised that there

830
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,880
weren't other guys with similar experiences who sort of followed

831
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,360
this z man attacked successfully.

832
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,639
Speaker 1: I'm I'm so horrible at this. Like I, like you said,

833
00:49:14,639 --> 00:49:17,599
you don't care about docsing and like when someone gets

834
00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:20,039
docks I'm like, oh that sucks. You'll be okay. I've

835
00:49:20,039 --> 00:49:23,039
met Carl twice, we've hung out twice. He's told me

836
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:25,719
his real name twice. I can't remember his first name.

837
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,480
That's that's how bad I am.

838
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:37,159
Speaker 3: I am also legitimately don't know Carl's real name. Now

839
00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:40,119
that I think about it, and this is this is

840
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:44,679
funny because this is just to decide. Uh, this is

841
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:48,000
something that it took the wife a long time to understand.

842
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,559
You're like, so, wait, you talk with this guy all

843
00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:53,519
the time, You've been to his house, and you literally

844
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:55,800
don't know what his name is. I'm like, I mean,

845
00:49:56,679 --> 00:49:58,760
I've got a Twitter handle that's pretty close.

846
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: Just kind of this speaks for itself, babe.

847
00:50:02,639 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, last words before being founded a meat freezer

848
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:07,679
on the side of the highway.

849
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 1: Just to give you, just to give you an example,

850
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,480
I've hung out with Lee Enfield three times, three different occasions,

851
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,960
had dinner, have had dinner and drinks with him three times.

852
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:23,320
No idea what his own name is, don't care, don't care. Yeah,

853
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,800
he looks exactly like the avatar he uses on on Twitter.

854
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:34,079
So which is funny because Jay here was he's exactly

855
00:50:34,079 --> 00:50:36,960
the same he was. He was a crazy He used

856
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,719
an avatar for very long. That was I mean, well,

857
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,119
if you just like you put it through AI and said,

858
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:43,800
well what does this human look like? You would have

859
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,760
basically been facetoks a long time ago.

860
00:50:46,679 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it was. It was the worst. And you actually,

861
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,840
you know, my real name. You're not that different either,

862
00:50:53,039 --> 00:50:58,719
Like it's a very.

863
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,519
Speaker 1: It's pretty funny. And believe me, I would not remember

864
00:51:00,599 --> 00:51:02,960
your real name if I haven't sent you, if I

865
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:11,360
hadn't sent you mail that I remember. Well, well, man,

866
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,480
I think Carl wanted to wanted to do something here,

867
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:20,119
so let me, let me, let me share a screen here,

868
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,320
and yeah, let's do this.

869
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, his his Girls Science segment that he would

870
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,800
do on a regular basis. Uh, he would he would

871
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:54,880
be laughing trying to read these you know, these theses

872
00:51:55,599 --> 00:51:59,639
by these imbeciles, and and then he would break it down.

873
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:04,960
And this is the funny thing. So I've I've worked

874
00:52:05,079 --> 00:52:09,480
from home for years, Right every Friday, I would play

875
00:52:09,519 --> 00:52:13,000
his podcast in my office through the speakers while I'm

876
00:52:13,039 --> 00:52:17,639
sitting here working away. And without fail, my wife would

877
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,800
walk into the room right when he switched to Zerile Science,

878
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,280
and she would just be like, why are you listening to?

879
00:52:25,639 --> 00:52:29,960
Why do I constantly hear Cyndi Lauper coming from your office?

880
00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:35,039
And I'm like it's from the podcast, and she's like, uh, huh, okay.

881
00:52:36,159 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 3: Actually, if we're talking about music, the the bluegrass tune

882
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,599
that he always used is the intro to his podcast.

883
00:52:43,639 --> 00:52:46,599
It's one. It's a great recording. It's also like a

884
00:52:46,599 --> 00:52:48,880
Pavlovian response to me. And if you guys didn't know

885
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,960
anyth about bluegrass, right, there's a lot of you know,

886
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,199
repeated motifs or repeated rips, and so it's music that

887
00:52:54,199 --> 00:52:55,840
I grew up listening to. So I'll have it on

888
00:52:56,119 --> 00:52:59,960
all the time, and you know that that I can't remember.

889
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:02,159
I think it's Cripple Creek. I can't remember, or some

890
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,559
version of it will come on and it's exactly that point.

891
00:53:05,599 --> 00:53:07,679
It's like I'm completely back in the mode of like

892
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:09,639
I've been trained like a dog. Right, it's like a

893
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,800
z Man time.

894
00:53:12,119 --> 00:53:17,159
Speaker 2: For some good takes. Yeah, that's funny. You know, I

895
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,280
have to share another story, and he and I talked

896
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:27,360
about it in person. But years ago, some friends of

897
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:32,719
mine were involved in what mutual friends were involved ins,

898
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:40,280
some in an online space, and they started a short

899
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:46,119
lived podcast that they ended up rapping after only a

900
00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:50,760
couple episodes because of a docsing campaign, a very vicious

901
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:56,119
one that was conducted and it had some rather negative

902
00:53:56,159 --> 00:54:00,079
outcomes unfortunately, which again the correct thing to do is

903
00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:04,280
to just disregard and move on with your life and

904
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:09,480
if anyone you know, is confronted theoretically by HR or something,

905
00:54:09,519 --> 00:54:14,679
you just deny. You just denied, deny, deny, and anyway,

906
00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:18,440
so so they did that. They didn't have any issues.

907
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,159
But so you can't find it online anymore, and it

908
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,760
might not exist anymore, like we we don't know. But anyway,

909
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,320
it was. It was a very good my friend's wife

910
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,639
was a very good interviewer, and z man uh would

911
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,400
would was going on and on about how it was

912
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,559
the best interview that anyone had ever conducted with with him.

913
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:44,639
And I told my friend this and he said, yeah,

914
00:54:44,639 --> 00:54:47,559
we've heard that all the time. We asked him two

915
00:54:47,679 --> 00:54:51,559
questions and he talked for an hour straight on the

916
00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:53,480
on the strength of those, there was there was more

917
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,639
conversation than that, but he just was just riffing. And

918
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,679
so it turned into this like gentle call and response

919
00:55:01,079 --> 00:55:04,000
where they were just kind of encouraging him to keep going.

920
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:06,920
And I also liked that one because he talked about me,

921
00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:09,159
and it was when my first book came out, which

922
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,719
is why I remember it in the first place. But

923
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,039
I just had to I had to tell that story

924
00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:16,800
because you know, he was like, it was the best

925
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,480
interview that anyone ever did with me, and I recall

926
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,239
listening to at least five or six others that people

927
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,880
did with him where they wouldn't hardly let him talk.

928
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,679
They were trying to keep him on the train tracks

929
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,639
and be short and quippi, but he didn't work that way.

930
00:55:37,519 --> 00:55:39,320
What he would do is he would start getting these

931
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:45,159
associations going and he would talk for you know, minutes

932
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,599
on end to wrap up a subject. But then he

933
00:55:48,639 --> 00:55:51,760
would ask people questions to keep them in the conversation.

934
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:53,960
And if they were like no, I'm the one who

935
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,000
asks questions, you know, it wasn't going to go anywhere.

936
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,280
It wasn't going to be a good conversation, which is

937
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,480
why he did so few in that format. He would

938
00:56:02,519 --> 00:56:07,079
come on you know, spaces and live streams and riff

939
00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:12,320
with people, but he really disliked that kind of controlled format,

940
00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:14,840
which is why he also didn't do that on his

941
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,159
show with other people.

942
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: I think he did.

943
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: I think he has like one or two episodes where

944
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,119
he did a recording with someone that he put out

945
00:56:22,159 --> 00:56:25,679
as his podcast. He'd usually let it be someone else's show.

946
00:56:30,519 --> 00:56:34,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was uh. Speaking as an interviewer, he was

947
00:56:34,679 --> 00:56:36,639
a ton of fun to talk to, you know, if

948
00:56:36,639 --> 00:56:39,519
you could sort of mirror him and figure out where

949
00:56:39,519 --> 00:56:41,559
it was going to go. It was. It was just

950
00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:44,679
this incredible feeling of you You're getting kind of live

951
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,559
like live stream of consciousness, pearls of wisdom. And you know,

952
00:56:49,599 --> 00:56:51,480
I've gone back through I think Pete, you put up

953
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,079
a compilation of all your conversations with c Man that

954
00:56:55,119 --> 00:56:58,599
I was going back through it, and uh yeah it

955
00:56:59,199 --> 00:57:03,239
They were rare, and they were honestly, really really good

956
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,199
because there are a lot of guys and who can

957
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:11,679
who can present, who can do a monologue but can't

958
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,960
necessarily translate that, and his style was definitely in that vein,

959
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,480
as you've said. But they're great, So I mean, honestly,

960
00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:22,159
you know, if you guys are not familiar with the man,

961
00:57:22,199 --> 00:57:23,920
and that would be a weird thing to be fifty

962
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,360
five minutes into a podcast and about a guy you've

963
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,280
never heard of, Pete's collection of his interview is well

964
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,599
worth your time. I think similarly, Blood Satellite put out

965
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:36,679
an interview just before he passed, like it was a

966
00:57:36,719 --> 00:57:39,199
few days before, and I think it's the last recording

967
00:57:39,199 --> 00:57:41,280
of him. That's another one you can find, but i'd

968
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,079
highly recommend both of those, and then like, go back

969
00:57:44,119 --> 00:57:46,159
to his stuff. The essays hold up. You can still

970
00:57:46,159 --> 00:57:50,039
find them. The podcasts are available literally everywhere. Go back

971
00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:53,480
and listen to them. They don't have ads. You're not

972
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,840
going to pay any money for it, but I highly

973
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,920
recommend them. They are very very good. And yeah, those

974
00:58:00,079 --> 00:58:02,800
those few interviews he did were very very good.

975
00:58:04,679 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I'm looking back at the names of

976
00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:11,599
some of the episodes we did, and it always seemed

977
00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:13,519
like I picked a name just to be funny, Like

978
00:58:13,599 --> 00:58:17,000
one was Mugshots, Debates and hitting the Target, which if

979
00:58:17,039 --> 00:58:18,719
I think back, I'm like, I have no idea what

980
00:58:18,719 --> 00:58:22,440
that was. But then I found that in February of

981
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,719
this year, February twenty eighth, twenty twenty five, he appeared

982
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,920
on the Old Glory Club livestream Pony Express Radio, and

983
00:58:31,199 --> 00:58:34,400
the title of that episode was back to Epstein Island.

984
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,000
It's just you can't get away from the humor with him.

985
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,679
It was like you were never going to It was like, yeah,

986
00:58:41,719 --> 00:58:44,519
the guy was dead serious about everything, and the guy

987
00:58:45,239 --> 00:58:48,840
knew his stuff, knew his politics, knew his Burnham, knew

988
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,840
knew what power was all about, and knew domestic policy

989
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,360
in this country and what was wrong with domestically man.

990
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,800
Every time I think of him, it's like I start laughing.

991
00:58:59,679 --> 00:59:02,760
It's impossible not to. He was literally one of the

992
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,800
fun And one of the things I missed the most

993
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:09,880
is I do my Sunday live streams and my Sunday

994
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,559
live streams people who've listened to him, I'm sure some

995
00:59:12,599 --> 00:59:15,239
people just skip over him. It's just me interacting with

996
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:19,320
the chat. And he would always come in on Rumble,

997
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,280
he would comment on Rumble, and it would always be

998
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,599
something poking fun at me. And I missed that so much.

999
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,840
I mean it was he was so good for that.

1000
00:59:30,159 --> 00:59:32,840
He was so good to rib you give you a

1001
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,440
nice friendly ribbing, like from the old school, where if

1002
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,440
he did that to a lot of people who you know,

1003
00:59:38,679 --> 00:59:40,719
are a lot younger than I am and not of

1004
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,960
our general of mine and his generation, they may have

1005
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,599
taken it personally. But I knew exactly what he was doing,

1006
00:59:46,679 --> 00:59:48,239
and he was just a master of it.

1007
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 2: He called a friend of ours who was in this

1008
00:59:53,920 --> 01:00:01,440
private chat, he called him a bald black could Jewish midget.

1009
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,480
Like almost every single day on GAB, they would just

1010
01:00:05,519 --> 01:00:08,519
like quote post each other and so my buddy would

1011
01:00:08,559 --> 01:00:11,960
play the straight man where he'd you know, post like enraged,

1012
01:00:12,079 --> 01:00:15,960
woe jack and stuff like that as a reply to it.

1013
01:00:16,239 --> 01:00:19,039
But like he would just he would just rip on

1014
01:00:19,199 --> 01:00:24,000
people in the funniest way. And yeah, just just non stop.

1015
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you guys have anything else, any

1016
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:32,400
other stories, you know, we're right at about an hour,

1017
01:00:32,599 --> 01:00:35,840
and yeah, we'd talk anymore. I might get cheery here

1018
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:41,000
because yeah, I remember the day that it was that

1019
01:00:41,079 --> 01:00:45,239
it came out and it wasn't We couldn't confirm it

1020
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,400
right away because the report was you know, we weren't

1021
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,320
really sure. But when it was confirmed, you know, I remember,

1022
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,199
you know, my wife got cheery, and I'll use this

1023
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,840
excuse because she got cheery, I got cheery too. So yeah,

1024
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,000
that's that's that sounds like a good excuse.

1025
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:10,159
Speaker 3: To sort of wrap it up. I small account for

1026
01:01:10,199 --> 01:01:14,400
a very long time, and so I really remember the

1027
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,920
guys who sort of gave me a hand up, who

1028
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,800
basically said, like, I'll you know, this isn't gonna be

1029
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,320
big exposure for me. This isn't going to be, you know,

1030
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,920
something I'm going to profit from really in any way.

1031
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,719
And ze Man was incredibly generous with his time and advice,

1032
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,400
both on and off air, in a way that was

1033
01:01:34,639 --> 01:01:39,559
in no way motivated by profit or motivated by I

1034
01:01:39,599 --> 01:01:43,800
guess kind of social cachet, And that to me showed

1035
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,519
a lot about his character. He was, you know, very

1036
01:01:46,559 --> 01:01:49,199
passionate about what he said, passionate about what he believed,

1037
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,079
and it was almost unconcerned with, you know, any sort

1038
01:01:54,119 --> 01:01:56,960
of money or accolades that came with that. He was right,

1039
01:01:57,679 --> 01:01:59,840
he said it. He wanted to get that out there,

1040
01:02:00,719 --> 01:02:03,559
and that's a very rare thing. And so I always

1041
01:02:03,599 --> 01:02:07,239
appreciated him for that, appreciated him for saying like, yeah, sure,

1042
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,599
like I'll give you a shot. And I don't mean

1043
01:02:10,639 --> 01:02:12,639
to say that because it benefited me, but just to

1044
01:02:12,679 --> 01:02:16,360
say like that, that is uncommon, and particularly Peteuse. I'm

1045
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,320
sure you're aware. You talk to a lot of people,

1046
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,840
you cold approach a lot of people, and you know

1047
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,320
there's a bell curve. Most people are perfectly pleasant. But

1048
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,599
when someone goes above and beyond, you know, when someone

1049
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:28,679
is you know, checking in, when someone is you know,

1050
01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:33,480
responding quickly and well, it makes a difference. It matters

1051
01:02:33,519 --> 01:02:35,719
to you. And you know, I'm not going to pretend

1052
01:02:35,719 --> 01:02:37,639
we were best friends, you know, I met him once

1053
01:02:37,679 --> 01:02:41,440
in person, but he was in a very good man

1054
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,480
in addition to being right and being funny, and you know,

1055
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:51,199
I think that's probably the best way to describe him.

1056
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, it was. It was delightful to meet him.

1057
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,199
It was like I had known him forever. We had

1058
01:02:57,199 --> 01:03:00,920
corresponded for a really long time. And so when when

1059
01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:05,880
we heard about it, everyone was kind of there were

1060
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,000
people coming to conclusions because of an article that he

1061
01:03:09,039 --> 01:03:13,239
had written the day before, which was inaccurate. It was

1062
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:20,119
an inaccurate assumption. And but he messaged, I was trying

1063
01:03:20,119 --> 01:03:21,840
to see if I could share this with you guys,

1064
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,039
but it doesn't look like going to be able to.

1065
01:03:25,159 --> 01:03:29,239
But the group chat that I was in with him

1066
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:34,199
was the last place where he engaged with anyone publicly,

1067
01:03:34,639 --> 01:03:40,239
and he just wrote fucking hot. And I don't know

1068
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:46,199
he he had a dry, wry sense of humor, and

1069
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:51,639
I can't help but think that he, you know, probably

1070
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,920
thought that that might ultimately have been a little funny,

1071
01:03:55,280 --> 01:04:00,480
you know, in a retrospect. But that was why when

1072
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:05,079
when we heard what was going on from people who

1073
01:04:05,119 --> 01:04:08,920
knew him locally and went up to go who were

1074
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,760
planning on meeting with him that day anyway, that we

1075
01:04:12,079 --> 01:04:17,760
believed it and immediately started telling people to chill out

1076
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:23,519
on the assumptions that they had. So yeah, but yeah,

1077
01:04:23,519 --> 01:04:27,679
a great guy and just a giant And honestly, I

1078
01:04:27,719 --> 01:04:32,599
feel like we're diminished. The space is diminished without him

1079
01:04:32,719 --> 01:04:35,639
because of the way that he was able to bridge

1080
01:04:36,239 --> 01:04:41,039
all those gaps, and he really inspired Honestly, he really

1081
01:04:41,079 --> 01:04:44,719
inspired me because he wasn't afraid of meeting with people

1082
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,599
in person at times that others were. You know, people

1083
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:52,079
in twenty twenty two were petrified of leaving the house

1084
01:04:52,639 --> 01:04:55,320
and going face to face to engage with other people

1085
01:04:55,400 --> 01:05:00,039
who were even vaguely right wing online because the the

1086
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,119
people who were new to all this, who were getting

1087
01:05:03,199 --> 01:05:06,440
arrested in twenty twenty one, who found out that they

1088
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,679
didn't live in a free country, you know, they were

1089
01:05:09,679 --> 01:05:12,039
the ones who were surprised. The right wingers know that

1090
01:05:12,119 --> 01:05:15,159
you don't do this stuff right. And so for him

1091
01:05:15,159 --> 01:05:19,079
to be like, well, you're not doing anything illegal or dangerous,

1092
01:05:19,559 --> 01:05:23,039
like you're going to talk to people, you know, it's fine,

1093
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,079
Like just just avoid these kinds of things, and the

1094
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:33,039
you know, the metaphorical bomb throwers, avoid those people and

1095
01:05:33,599 --> 01:05:37,679
do your thing. And I think I can't help but

1096
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:44,000
think that a lot of him talking about these his

1097
01:05:44,039 --> 01:05:46,280
way of doing this, of just going around and meeting

1098
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:48,760
with people. He'd get invited to events all the time,

1099
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,360
and he'd fly all over the country to go to

1100
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,960
him a couple times a year, you know, those would

1101
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,760
be his vacations if he wasn't going to a ballgame

1102
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:02,280
with his buddies, you know, in Boston. And I think

1103
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,760
it was a really good mentality that we needed to hear,

1104
01:06:06,199 --> 01:06:10,920
just a voice of sanity. And yeah, I'll miss him,

1105
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:12,760
and I'll always be happy that I got to meet

1106
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:13,840
him in person finally.

1107
01:06:15,599 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: You know, this has been a year that started off politically,

1108
01:06:21,039 --> 01:06:26,760
you know, pretty strong, and you know, but it's definitely

1109
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,599
tailed off. You know, the excitement wore off really quick.

1110
01:06:31,559 --> 01:06:35,360
And I pretty much know what he would be writing.

1111
01:06:36,039 --> 01:06:36,239
Speaker 2: You know.

1112
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 1: He he was not somebody who thought that that drastic

1113
01:06:41,119 --> 01:06:46,039
change was coming immediately. He wasn't blackpilled about the future.

1114
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:49,639
He just knew it wasn't it wasn't going to happen now.

1115
01:06:50,159 --> 01:06:52,840
All the things people wanted to see, but the one

1116
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,840
thing that I really would have liked to get his

1117
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,719
take on because I know he probably would have had

1118
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,679
a different take than any one of us, and anyone

1119
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:06,159
we know is the Charlie Kirk assassination. I really wish

1120
01:07:06,159 --> 01:07:09,679
I could have a z Man episode about Charlie, the

1121
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:16,079
Charlie Kirk assassination. I'll leave it alas yeah man, Yeah,

1122
01:07:16,239 --> 01:07:17,559
Jay Burden plug your shit.

1123
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:19,519
Speaker 2: Yep.

1124
01:07:19,719 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 3: So Jay Burten Show, Spotify, YouTube, Apple, anywhere you listen

1125
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,840
to podcasts. Actually, inspired by this, I think I'll probably

1126
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:32,920
put out a compilation of my interviews with c men.

1127
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,639
I have three of them, so that will be out

1128
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,880
roughly contemporaneously to win this drops, you know, just to

1129
01:07:41,199 --> 01:07:44,039
sort of provide a snapshot at the man, you know.

1130
01:07:44,519 --> 01:07:47,159
I think the oldest recording is maybe two years old,

1131
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,159
you know, up to one that was six or seven

1132
01:07:49,199 --> 01:07:52,639
months ago. So yeah, if you want, you can check

1133
01:07:52,639 --> 01:07:54,840
out the Jay Burton Show anywhere you listen to podcasts

1134
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,239
and look for the z Man retrospective there.

1135
01:08:00,239 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 1: Carl Dahl.

1136
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:08,599
Speaker 2: Carldall dot substack dot com, cowdio Doll on Twitter, and

1137
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:13,159
two books on Amazon, Faction and Faction with Crusaders. I'm

1138
01:08:13,199 --> 01:08:17,560
inspired by z Man to I've been playing with this idea,

1139
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:21,680
to do a PO box because he had so much

1140
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,560
fun with his PO box and that's where he got

1141
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,560
his endless supply of cash that he would use to

1142
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:30,600
pay bar tabs when he went to events. He was like,

1143
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:37,159
people mail me en the loops full of cash. So anyway,

1144
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,640
thanks for having us, Pete, thank you gentlemen.

1145
01:08:41,079 --> 01:08:42,319
Speaker 1: We'll talk Sam Sack Care