WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Geesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:32.719 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:45.759 Good Evening. On April fifteenth, nineteen seventy three, two high 8 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:51.119 school students discovered Virginia Marie Olson's body near the campus 9 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:57.240 of the University of North Carolina at Asheville. Olson's murder 10 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:01.159 was horrifically violent. She had been bound, raped, and stabbed, 11 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:06.640 the death leaving the Ashville community in shock. The cold 12 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:10.920 case that followed would span over fifty years, involving three 13 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:16.040 generations of detectives and the Ashville Police Department and North 14 00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:21.599 Carolina's State Bureau of Investigation as they work tirelessly to 15 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:29.000 uncover the truth. Authors Brian and Cameron Santana discuss law 16 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:34.840 enforcement's dramatic efforts to find Olson's killer, facing numerous obstacles 17 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:39.120 along the way, from the abduction of another University of 18 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:43.400 North Carolina student in nineteen seventy four to a rape 19 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:47.719 and murder victim's body discovered near Olson's crime scene in 20 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:53.280 nineteen seventy eight. Whispers about the killer's identity have circulated 21 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:58.280 for decades, with theories ranging from an escaped mental patient 22 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:04.079 to one of North Carolina's most notorious serial killers. Until now. 23 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:09.199 Their book, A Murder on Campus is the first to 24 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:13.159 tell the gripping story of this unsolved crime and the 25 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:17.759 surprising twists that led to the author's startling revelation of 26 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:22.960 the killer's identity. This is the fascinating story of how 27 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.800 two brothers, Brian, an English professor, and Cameron, a cop, 28 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:33.199 tag team as authors to solve North Carolina's most notorious 29 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:37.800 cold case. The book that we are featuring this evening 30 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:42.919 is A Murder on Campus, The Professor, the Cop, and 31 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:48.280 North Carolina's most notorious cold Case, with my special guests, 32 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:54.439 professor and author Brian Santana and police officer and author 33 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:59.080 Cameron Santana. Welcome to the program and thank you very 34 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:02.639 much for this interview Brian and Cameron Santana. 35 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:05.159 Thanks Dan, thank for having us on today. 36 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.000 Thank you so much, and congratulations on your book, A 37 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:14.039 Murder on Campus, The Professor, the Cop, and North Carolina's 38 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:15.840 most notorious cold case. 39 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:19.319 Thank you. We're happy to be here to talk about it. 40 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:23.960 Thank you so much. Now let's start off with you, Brian. 41 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.120 Let's talk about the genesis of this book, but also 42 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.319 about your very important background involved in all of this 43 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:36.280 before we introduce your brother, Cameron and co author and 44 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:37.120 his background. 45 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:41.879 Sure, So, the genesis of this book traces back to 46 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.800 nineteen ninety nine. So in nineteen ninety nine, I was 47 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:48.439 a freshman at the University of North Carolina Asheville. I 48 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:52.319 was a new drama major at the time, and I was, 49 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.199 like many freshmen each year, kind of I'd arrived at 50 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:58.520 college at this new place and was trying to kind 51 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.439 of get my bearings and and I didn't have my 52 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:04.599 friend group or circle yet. And so I was attending 53 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:07.039 my first drama class, which was held at the university's 54 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:10.759 main theater, and as I was standing in the lobby, says, 55 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.479 I didn't really know too many people yet. I was 56 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:15.840 just kind of making my way around, trying to busy 57 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.439 myself and looking at different portraits that were hanging. And 58 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.279 I found myself looking at this picture that looked like 59 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:24.040 it was from the sixties or seventies to me, at 60 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:26.800 the time and of a young woman painting scenery in 61 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.399 the theater, and it was the picture it's on the 62 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:32.439 cover of our book. And another student came up to 63 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:35.279 me and said, Hey, that's Virginia Olsen, and you know 64 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:37.480 she died here a long time ago, and it was 65 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:40.600 a really sad story. I didn't really think too much 66 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:44.319 about it anymore after that, except that later in that 67 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.439 semester another student came up to me when I was 68 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:48.199 in the lobby happened to be staying in front of 69 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:51.240 this picture again, and said, that's Virginia Olson. You know 70 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:54.360 she was raped and murdered in the theater here many 71 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:57.399 years ago. And I mean that creeping out for a 72 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.120 little bit. I was when I would be working at 73 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:00.639 the theater late at night. I thought that was a 74 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:03.600 very eerie kind of remark. And that was the kind 75 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:05.879 of story that many of my peers kind of had 76 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.639 for a while. But then before I graduated, other people said, no. 77 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:10.360 They had it wrong. 78 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:14.519 She didn't actually die in the theater. She was raped 79 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:17.720 and murdered in the gardens that were adjacent to the campus, 80 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:20.519 the botanical gardens, to build more botanical gardens. 81 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:23.399 And so that was kind of my kind of entrance 82 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:24.040 that first year. 83 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:26.600 This case made a very deep impression on me because, 84 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:29.879 like many college students, I was away from home for 85 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:32.519 the first time, and I was trying to figure out, 86 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:34.360 you know, who I was and what I wanted to 87 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:35.040 do in my life. 88 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:36.319 And this story. 89 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:38.160 You know, when you're when you're eighteen, you don't you 90 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.800 have that sense of your kind of sense of immortality. 91 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.079 And I didn't really give much thought to the fact 92 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:48.600 that circumstances could arise where you know, I. 93 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:50.199 Wasn't able to pursue a kind of future. 94 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:53.439 And hearing about this other student who was nineteen years 95 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:56.680 old like me and was also a drama major and 96 00:05:56.759 --> 00:05:59.279 didn't have that future, it made a really deep impact 97 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:01.920 on me. And so it was one of these the 98 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:06.800 cases that I heard about, and because of the conflicting information, 99 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:09.680 I was always really curious about it, and I started 100 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:12.759 informally researching it. I would keep track of when I 101 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.959 went into graduate school after college. I would keep track 102 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.240 of media coverage from the nineteen seventies and kind of 103 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:23.360 later of it, and I would periodically check in and 104 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.160 see if there had been any new developments or any 105 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:29.319 use coverage, and most of the time there wasn't there 106 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.199 was very If any of your listeners kind of google 107 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:35.600 Virginia Olsen, you'll see that there's they won't find very much. 108 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.959 And kind of fast forward, and I finished graduate school. 109 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.600 I became an English professor at a university, and I 110 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.199 found myself teaching true crime seminars, and so I was 111 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:50.360 teaching students how to research and kind of write about 112 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:51.279 crime and culture. 113 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.480 And I always tell my students to choose cases that they. 114 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.240 Kind of that they care about, and I noticed that, 115 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:00.720 you know, some of my students would were increase asking 116 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:03.879 me to tell stories about cases that I cared about, 117 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:06.319 and I always found myself kind of drifting back to 118 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:09.720 this Virginia Olsen's story that I had first learned about 119 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.120 in college. And so I decided that maybe I should 120 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:16.600 do something with this and do something with this, all 121 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:18.319 of this kind of thought and this early research I 122 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:22.079 had done, and so I reached out to Cameron. And 123 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:24.519 then this was around two years ago, and I reached 124 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:27.519 out to Cameron, and that was when there were things 125 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.839 happening in his life that kind of opened up that 126 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:32.959 he can speak to and we found ourselves kind of 127 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:35.839 teaming up for what we thought was maybe going to 128 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:38.720 be an article, and then we very quickly realized that 129 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:40.079 this was a book. 130 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:41.680 It was going to be too long. 131 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:42.319 For an article. 132 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:47.560 Now, Cameron, tell us about your background, and also this 133 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:52.519 your background much different than your brothers, offering a far 134 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:55.959 different perspective as a co author in this project. 135 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:01.560 So I joined the Raleigh Police Academy in Raleigh, North 136 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.560 Carolina in two thousand and five, and I was with 137 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:09.120 the Raleigh Police Department for sixteen and a half years. 138 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:12.879 And during that time I really enjoyed it, but like 139 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:17.199 a lot of police officers, started to have families and 140 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.680 the balance of work life and family life became an issue, 141 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.800 especially when I had my second child that has or 142 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:33.039 had some medical issues and she's also autistic, So working 143 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.679 shifts and being called in and doing the extra assignments 144 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.360 on your time off became more of a hassle, and 145 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.039 so I started to look at some smaller departments I 146 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:46.080 could work for and still be a cop. So I 147 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.559 did that, but it really wasn't the same as when 148 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:54.559 you're working for a larger department. And I was only 149 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:56.120 doing it part time, so I had a lot of 150 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.759 time on my hands, and my brother had been teaching 151 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:04.000 the true crimes class, like you'll tell you, and he 152 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:07.080 would tell me about these cases, and naturally I would 153 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:10.080 start to research, and then that turned into kind of 154 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.159 like a nightly phone call with us, where we'd start 155 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:17.039 to discussing these cases and what we had learned about 156 00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:20.399 them throughout the day. And then one day you called 157 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.360 me and said, you know, I've got this case that 158 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:26.399 I would like us to do, and I'm thinking that 159 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.480 maybe it'll be an article we can probably at least 160 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.360 get into the Asheville Paper, but you never know, if 161 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.559 we've really dig up some, you know, some new things, 162 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.919 and we may be able to make this into a book. 163 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:43.240 And honestly, I really didn't think that much into it. 164 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:48.080 I just thought, Okay, maybe this would be a weekend's 165 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:51.000 worth of work. You know, this is just something that 166 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.799 we'll be doing for fun. And then the next day 167 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:57.200 or two my brother called me and said, hey, by 168 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.279 the way, we've got a book contract and we need 169 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:04.639 to start discussing some deadlines. So that's kind of the 170 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:07.759 point that it really sunk in that this was not 171 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.519 just going to be a little side project. This is 172 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:14.519 actually going to be a real kind of side job. 173 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:20.879 And we've gone from that to growing it into making 174 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.519 some sales lists i Amazon and doing these podcasts, and 175 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.519 so we're just going from there. 176 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.679 Rian, Let's get back to who was Virginia Marie Olson 177 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:35.759 tell us about her. 178 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.240 Sure, so, Virginia Brielson was born. She was born just 179 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:42.679 outside of Washington, d C. And her father worked for 180 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:47.200 the Department of Agriculture. She had two siblings. She spent 181 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:50.000 most of her early life in Northern Virginia, aside from 182 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:52.720 a short period of time when her family relocated to 183 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.799 Kansas for elementary school. Most of her formative years and 184 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:58.919 most of the classmates we interviewed were from her time 185 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.320 in Northern Virginia, though. She went to McClain High School, 186 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:06.480 and she was known in high school as someone who 187 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:11.919 was very both introverted on one hand and deeply spiritual 188 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.559 and religious, but also someone who had kind of something 189 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:19.200 very kind of intoxicating and very gregarious about her that 190 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.559 the people found very attractive. You know, we interviewed around 191 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:24.799 thirty two people I think it totally knew her in 192 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:29.360 high school, and that was they all have these very strong, 193 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:32.720 kind of distinct memories of her, and her death deeply 194 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.679 impacted them. But her father was transferred to when she 195 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:37.519 finished she was finishing up high school. 196 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:39.720 This would have been she was in the class. 197 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:42.519 Of nineteen seventy one of McLain High School and her 198 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:47.080 father was relocated as part of our rural development project 199 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:51.240 to Lexington, North Carolina, so about one hundred and forty 200 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.360 four miles from Ashville, North Carolina, and she ultimately decided 201 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.320 to apply to unc Ashville. Unc Asheville at that time 202 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:00.440 was kind of a it's not the it wasn't the 203 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.320 cultural hub in nineteen seventy three that it is today 204 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:04.480 that most people kind of think of. 205 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:07.120 It had about half the population. 206 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:10.639 Around fifty thousand people or so, but it had kind 207 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:12.960 of long developed as a kind of reputation as a 208 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.039 kind of a space that was attractive to kind of 209 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:19.840 freethinkers and artistic types. And that was kind of how 210 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:22.120 Olsen saw herself at this moment her life. And so 211 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:25.159 that made you UNCA really attractive. And she had gotten 212 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:29.559 into drama and theater and participated in some six competitions 213 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.399 in high school, some awards, and it started to think 214 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.159 about this idea herself as a is not only a 215 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.879 kind of as an actress, but also as a writer 216 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:40.080 and poet and lots of different things. 217 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:42.679 And so she went to. 218 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:47.240 Unc Asheville and was maintained a very close relationship with 219 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.159 her with her family and her friends back at home. 220 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.360 Wanted to think the facts of this case that will 221 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.559 kind of come back, We think to kind of hang 222 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:58.720 over this investigation is the fact that she was a. 223 00:12:58.600 --> 00:12:59.679 Prolific letter writer. 224 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.600 She wrote near weekly letters to some of her closest 225 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.120 friends back home the entire time she was in college. 226 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:10.559 She was tragically murdered on April fifteenth, nineteen seventy three, 227 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:14.159 just as she was finishing up about to in her 228 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:17.759 final exams during her sophomore year at unc Ashow. She 229 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:20.039 was a drama major and part of the first class 230 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:23.200 of drama students when the major was established in nineteen seventy, 231 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:24.960 so she was part of that one of those first groups, 232 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.720 and she died at a moment when she was just 233 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:30.120 kind of starting to sort things out and come into 234 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:34.360 her own. She had developed several close romantic relationships. One 235 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:36.480 of those individuals we spent a live time interviewing for 236 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:39.639 this book her boyfriend at the time, and she was 237 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.120 also starting to kind of sort out kind of what 238 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:44.000 she wanted to do with her life. At the moment 239 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:48.919 that she lost it, she was contemplaying a transfer to 240 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.000 UNC Greensboro to be closer to her family, but she 241 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:55.000 was also kind of honing in on this idea of 242 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.159 being an actress and was really pursuing different avenues that 243 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:00.919 would allow her to work in the summer and kind 244 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.399 of beyond in that capacity. And so she's murdered on 245 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:09.320 April fifteenth, nineteen seventy three, and that is where kind 246 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:15.440 of the actual kind of investigation starts. And something in 247 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.639 a case that was that many imagined would be solved 248 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.639 very quickly. Fifty one years later, we are still here. 249 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.799 You mentioned, well, you're writing in the book about her 250 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:34.000 religiosity and also her not her proximity to botanical gardens, 251 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.679 but the importance of the botanical gardens to her. 252 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:39.559 Yeah, so the botanical garden. 253 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.559 So her her boyfriend at the time was a would 254 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:46.120 go on to become a fairly prominent kind of botanist 255 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:48.440 and working and also working in the field of biology. 256 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.120 But they were both very much into the outdoors, and 257 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.679 so they would Virginia was very spiritual, and she carried 258 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:58.000 around the Spiritual Journal with her and this is something 259 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:00.559 that some of her drama department colleagues kind of impressed 260 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.080 upon us. She was always carrying it to just record 261 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.519 just different spiritual musings during the day. And one of 262 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.399 what was very common is her roommate has stated, and 263 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:11.639 we talk about in the book, when she was studying 264 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.919 or just wanted to just kind of organize her thoughts, 265 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.840 she was very fond of going into the botanical garden. 266 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:20.399 So this was something that was fairly common for her 267 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:24.799 to do. And the botanical gardens were directly adjacent to 268 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.519 the university, in a very short walk from her dorms, 269 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.279 and that's where that's where her murder occurred. So it 270 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.679 was technically the murder was on university land and grounds. 271 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:38.799 The medical examiner is going to write UNCA campus as 272 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:42.000 on her actual death certificate we include, but this idea 273 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:45.279 of the location and its connection to university will also 274 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:48.120 be something that very early on becomes a point of contention. 275 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.919 Now you say April fifteenth, nineteen seventy three, she's killed, Cameron, 276 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:58.440 tell us what witnesses find that There's two young boys 277 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.799 that discover her on the trail and then run yelling 278 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:06.000 for police, and police arrived. What is the crime scene 279 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:08.720 that police find when they arrived. 280 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.440 So that's a really interesting question. So a lot of 281 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:17.360 what is out there is that she was sitting on 282 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:21.759 a rock, like a large rock that was near a trail, 283 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.759 and that's actually where the witnesses to this case saw her. 284 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.960 But her body was discovered about thirty feet off that rock. 285 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:35.399 In that we received that information from interviewing the current 286 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:39.039 cold case detective Kevin Taylor, because that was one of 287 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:43.639 the questions I had was if this occurred in broad daylight, 288 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:47.919 which it did. And we also have a witness saying 289 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:53.799 that during the investigation that he witnessed some books flapping 290 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.960 when he passed by for the second time. So what 291 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:01.840 these boys saw is they saw Virgin Yeah, and her 292 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:07.359 pants were pulled down and she was The suspect used 293 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.920 a knife to cut her shirt into rags and then 294 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:17.000 use those rags to bind her arms and her legs. 295 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:21.319 And we also know that she was stabbed in the chest, 296 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.000 which is what killed her. And there's a massive amount 297 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.880 of blood. I believe those estimated about two leaders were 298 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.720 around the crime scene. And then we know the suspects 299 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:38.519 slit her throat after she had died. 300 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:44.839 That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 301 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:49.920 you talked about that laceration on her neck, so soon 302 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.359 it's determined by the medical examiner. I believe you right 303 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.960 that this laceration is likely post mortem. It happened after 304 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.799 her death, and the cause of the death is the 305 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:04.640 stab wound to her heart. Tell us how police proceed 306 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:06.000 with this investigation. 307 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.519 So that's the really interesting thing about this is we've 308 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.359 got take in mind that this is nineteen seventy three, 309 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:18.880 and in nineteen seventy three, training and Standards for North Carolina, 310 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.880 which is the governing agency that oversees all the training 311 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:28.720 for law enforcement, had just started. So these officers that 312 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:32.079 arrived on scene had not had a lot of formal training. 313 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.079 And this is a small department in a quiet town, 314 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.200 so I'm sure they don't have the experience in dealing 315 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:44.400 with a crime like this. We also know that when 316 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:48.000 we're looking back at some of the issues that arise 317 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.519 fifty years later, we know that the crime scene was 318 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:56.400 not properly secured. We know that people are milling around 319 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:01.079 taking photos, which is how we have the photos today. 320 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:06.119 We know that the lease officers get her out of 321 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.359 the crime scene fairly quickly. When we look at the 322 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:12.559 timetable that we were able to construct, which is also 323 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:16.119 in our book, we've noticed that it's about a four 324 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:21.119 hour timeframe from when her body was discovered to when 325 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:26.240 she's on the medical examiner's table for the exam. So 326 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.920 that's really not a lot of time at all. The 327 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:35.119 other thing that we noticed, which becomes an issue today, 328 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.880 is that the officers are not wearing any gloves. We 329 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.400 can see that in some of the photos, and we 330 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:47.279 see that even when they're carrying her body out that 331 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.039 again people are approaching her. Another thing that we know 332 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.359 is that her roommate was actually when she heard about 333 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.400 what had happened, she felt concerned that it may have 334 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.200 been Virgini. So she actually took a picture of Virginia 335 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.359 down to the crime scene and was able to show 336 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.039 that to an officer. And we've got the fact that 337 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.920 this is a fifty acre wooded property that this crime occurred, 338 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:20.319 and even though it's close to the botanical garden, still 339 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:24.880 you've got the just the logistical aspect of being to 340 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:27.359 lock that down you would need a lot of officers, 341 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:32.880 which again Asheville does not have, so we've you know, 342 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.039 they did the best that they could with the training 343 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.960 and experience and equipment that they had, but I believe 344 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.160 it was definitely very chaotic. 345 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:48.279 What were the agencies you mentioned SBI? What is that 346 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:53.640 agency along that worked along with the Asheville Police Department. 347 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:58.960 So in North Carolina we have there's local law enforcement 348 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:04.240 officers and we also have of course share deputies, and 349 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:09.039 then at a state level, we've got the North Carolina SBI. 350 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.039 So State Bureau Investigations is what it stands for, and 351 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.519 their main job is to help these smaller agencies that 352 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:23.359 don't have the resources to be able to investigate high 353 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:29.960 profile crimes. And they also with larger agencies, they are 354 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.519 the entity that will do officer invall shootings. That way, 355 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.960 a department isn't investigating their own officer for those But 356 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:43.000 during that time in seventy three, that was one of 357 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:49.599 the few agencies besides the FBI, that actually had a 358 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:53.680 training facility and an academy that officers would go to. 359 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:58.200 So they had the most experience by far. And we 360 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:03.119 can get into this later, but the agents that work 361 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.799 this case, especially Charles Chambers who wrote the search warrant 362 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:11.400 for this case, get a massive amount of experience with 363 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:17.079 really complex crimes, so that would be the But the 364 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.960 issue with this agency is, of course they are not 365 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:25.039 there day one. They have to be requested from Asheville. 366 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:29.240 So you know, that creates some logistical issues as well. 367 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:32.680 And I would also add that something that's important for 368 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.400 your listeners to keep in mind too. One of the 369 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:38.359 other kind of complicating factors early on was today, when 370 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:42.680 there are crimes that take place on university property, university 371 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:47.000 owned property, most universities have campus police force that actually 372 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:50.279 have certified law enforcement officers or even their own police 373 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:53.880 station kind of there. In nineteen seventy three, Ashville did 374 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:57.839 not have that. Ashville, in fact, was the only university 375 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.680 and the University of North Carolina system did not have 376 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.240 an actual police force. They had kind of non deputized 377 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.240 or non certified security officers who didn't have the authority 378 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.440 to actually make arrest and so in fact, one of 379 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.519 the things that the campus had always prided itself on, 380 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.640 particularly in the midst of this like you know, tumultuous 381 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:19.599 kind of you know, civil rights and unrest with Vietnam 382 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.200 and other things, this is a campus is fairly progressive politically, 383 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.759 both then and now, and there was a lot of 384 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:29.359 deep skepticism towards the idea of having a kind of 385 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:31.680 campus law enforcement, and they didn't see it as something 386 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:34.599 that was necessary and they wouldn't actually have. It was 387 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.200 actually this murder that causes them to go back to 388 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.400 the state legislature and decide that having a you, a 389 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.599 formal campus police force would be a good idea, and 390 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:46.759 they have that the following year, starting the next fall 391 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.079 after this murder. But building on what camera was saying 392 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:53.400 about the SBI as well, you know, this case does 393 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:57.240 very early on started attracting a fairly high profile within 394 00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:59.799 the state. It's the only murder to date this ever 395 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.400 taking place on the grounds of unc Asheville. As far 396 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.319 as a student that was murdered, there's been other individuals 397 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.359 that we'll talk about, but as far as student deaths, 398 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:11.240 this was the only one in the school's history, And 399 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:17.960 so very quickly this case does get prioritized Governor Holshauser, 400 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:19.599 who was the governor of North Carolina at the time. 401 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:24.400