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Speaker 5: Host, you are now listening to True Murder, The most
Speaker 5: Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that
Speaker 5: have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufansky. Good evening, This
Speaker 5: is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder,
Speaker 5: The most shocking Killers in True crime History and the
Speaker 5: authors that are written about them. Jimmy Jost was a
Speaker 5: powerhouse in the oil and gas industry, but he was
Speaker 5: a weakling when it came into his gorgeous, athletic longtime
Speaker 5: lover Ronda Glover. Addicted to her sexual prowess and madly
Speaker 5: in love, Jost gave her homes, cars, cash, and a
Speaker 5: three hundred and fifty thousand dollars engagement ring. Their fifteen
Speaker 5: years of passion and excess ended the day, Ronda drove
Speaker 5: directly from the shooting range to the Austin home they
Speaker 5: once shared. After pumping ten bullets into him from a
Speaker 5: glock nine millimeter, she stood over Joe's body, splattered body
Speaker 5: blood splattered body and shot him six more times, twice
Speaker 5: below the waist. According to Ronda, Jost was violent, abusive,
Speaker 5: and had threatened her life. Here for the first time
Speaker 5: were Ronda Glover's shocking stories of drug crazed devil worship
Speaker 5: and sexual perversity. But in a packed courtroom, prosecutors presented
Speaker 5: shocking evidence that beautiful Ronda didn't act in self defense.
Speaker 5: It was just hot blooded murder. Fatal Beauty with my
Speaker 5: special guests, the immeasurable and an infamous Burrel Bear off
Speaker 5: of Fatal Beauty, Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 5: you very much for agreeing again to be on this
Speaker 5: little we program. Burl Bear.
Speaker 6: Well, it's a pleasure to be on your show. And
Speaker 6: having also having read your book and having had you
Speaker 6: on my show, you have the distinction of having been
Speaker 6: on perhaps the most horrifyingly disgusting radio broadcast I've ever
Speaker 6: been on my life.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Reeling from your book, which is just one of the
Speaker 6: most shocking books I've ever read in my life.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, thank you very much. Coming from you,
Speaker 4: that's very high praise, So thank you, and coming from
Speaker 4: your vast experience, that's something too, to shock a person
Speaker 4: of your unshockable nature. So thank you very much. Now
Speaker 4: getting to this shockable story. This is quite a different
Speaker 4: book even for you, Burl. So I got to commend
Speaker 4: you on this for just being a very, very surprising book.
Speaker 4: And it's almost like you got your legal background here
Speaker 4: on this one. So it's impressible.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, it's a difficult thing in the true
Speaker 6: crime field. There's all sorts of people who read true crime.
Speaker 6: Traditionally it's been a female driven market. More women have
Speaker 6: traditionally bought true crime books than men, right, And a
Speaker 6: large segment of people who read through crime books sadly
Speaker 6: don't really care about much except the blood and the gore.
Speaker 6: What I was trained to do as a journalist, to
Speaker 6: what I think is important to do morally, is if
Speaker 6: all you do is talk about the blood and the
Speaker 6: gore and don't put it in any sort of context,
Speaker 6: it might as well be porno. And porno is entertaining,
Speaker 6: I'll admit, but you do need a little bit of
Speaker 6: a plot line. And so the only objections that well,
Speaker 6: I've had two objections to the book, one that it
Speaker 6: contains too much important information, yeah, and the other is
Speaker 6: the style I so as to write it, and I
Speaker 6: did use a slightly different style on this. A lot
Speaker 6: of people watch shows like forty eight hours or sixteen
Speaker 6: minutes or twenty twenty whether that, or like documentaries where
Speaker 6: you have various people commenting on what's going on. So
Speaker 6: I thought it would kind of be fun to do
Speaker 6: a book that was like you were watching a documentary
Speaker 6: where you have all these people commenting on what's going on,
Speaker 6: including Ron the Glover herself. If this is the first
Speaker 6: time I think that we've had a true crime book
Speaker 6: of this nature where the killer provides running commentary to
Speaker 6: help the entire book.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. I thought out of necessity you created this
Speaker 4: book as well because of its very unique nature, and
Speaker 4: then very much like a very important book where there
Speaker 4: never can be too much important information. This is so
Speaker 4: thorough and so much. You're known for your subtext, that's
Speaker 4: for sure, but this one is very very necessary, and
Speaker 4: you can see it buildings as the book progresses after
Speaker 4: even the third of the book, and you can see
Speaker 4: that you're getting ah, You're seeing as what should be
Speaker 4: a historical time in law where a case like this
Speaker 4: in a very very conservative state like Texas at a
Speaker 4: very I guess crucial time, you know, because things have
Speaker 4: developed over the years, even in that state, and looking
Speaker 4: at this and what is insanity and what you know,
Speaker 4: a really good examination of what it is not an
Speaker 4: emotional examination, and then you have just to throw in,
Speaker 4: you know. The complexity is having this woman, like you say,
Speaker 4: telling the story from her perspective, in and out of
Speaker 4: probably sanity so incredible.
Speaker 6: One of the reviews of the book that I appreciated
Speaker 6: that I think it was perhaps it was on the
Speaker 6: True Crime book Reviews, said that the reviewer said that
Speaker 6: while they were reading the book the book, at first
Speaker 6: they thought perhaps some of the material I was putting
Speaker 6: in there was like filler or something. But then they
Speaker 6: realized by the time they got the end of the
Speaker 6: book that I didn't put anything in there that was filler.
Speaker 6: Everything in this book is there on purpose. It's not
Speaker 6: just a fill up space. And if you want to
Speaker 6: skip over and stuff that you don't find interesting, go
Speaker 6: right ahead, but you'll miss what the book is really about.
Speaker 6: And there's some people, I admit, that really don't care
Speaker 6: about the social context of members. They just want to
Speaker 6: hear about how many wounds there were, you know, and
Speaker 6: that sort of thing. But the one thing I found
Speaker 6: especially fascinating about this story for those who I'm familiar
Speaker 6: with it, is that the real reason that Ronda Glover
Speaker 6: killed Jimmy Joe's never came out at the trial. It
Speaker 6: never came out of the newspaper. They were never allowed
Speaker 6: to even mention it at the trial.
Speaker 4: Yes, never was.
Speaker 6: And the only place that you will find the full
Speaker 6: story on why she killed.
Speaker 4: Him because in this book, yeah there is a why. Yeah,
Speaker 4: if there is any why, for sure. Well, okay, let's
Speaker 4: go back on this incredible story, because let's assume that
Speaker 4: some people don't know this story at all, and so
Speaker 4: let's go back to the rodeo star. The very beautiful
Speaker 4: Ronda Glover let.
Speaker 6: Me she was and she I went and visited her
Speaker 6: in prison, which is a rather unnerving experience. But she's
Speaker 6: very pleasant, still attractive, better looking than she appears to
Speaker 6: be on the TV show Snapped, where she didn't look
Speaker 6: as good on that TV show as she did what
Speaker 6: I went to see her. She's still an attractive woman
Speaker 6: and as you can see from the photograph, she was
Speaker 6: dropped dead. Gorgeous, incredibly attractive woman, very vivacious, personality. And
Speaker 6: my daughter once made a comment that if if someone's
Speaker 6: crazy in bed, probably crazy everywhere else too, And yeah,
Speaker 6: that might occur applied to her to Ronda as well.
Speaker 6: So let's go back, and it's absolutely beautiful and the
Speaker 6: bright woman, Ronda Glover, and you will have a very
Speaker 6: wealthy and nice guy named Jimmy Chose and he've been
Speaker 6: going with another woman named Ronda for about eight years.
Speaker 6: When he meets this Ronda two, Ronda Glover, and he
Speaker 6: falls for her like the proverbial ton of bricks or
Speaker 6: several tons of bricks or several large bank ballasts. Once
Speaker 6: he experiences Ronda, he's hooked his best friend, who we
Speaker 6: talked to a great deal. In the book Rocky to borrow.
Speaker 6: As he points out about Jimmy, he and Jimmy had
Speaker 6: a lot of common Jimmy was incredibly wealthy, Rocky wasn't,
Speaker 6: but the two were best friends.
Speaker 4: Either.
Speaker 6: There was his vast difference in their income levels, but
Speaker 6: they shared a great commonality, and that is they were
Speaker 6: the kind of guys that when it came to women,
Speaker 6: they weren't in the conquest, they weren't the number of women,
Speaker 6: none of that nonsense. If they met a beautiful woman
Speaker 6: who was sexually incredible. They were toasts. That was it. Uh,
Speaker 6: they that woman could It wasn't that they could do
Speaker 6: no wrong, because I said, they could do all the
Speaker 6: wrong they wanted. And it didn't pattern. Rondick could leave
Speaker 6: Jimmy and go off with somebody else for an extended
Speaker 6: period of time, brun out of money and call him
Speaker 6: and go Jimmy, Bam, he's right there. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 6: that that was it. And as as Rocky, he said,
Speaker 6: you know, I'm sure women can see him coming a
Speaker 6: mile away. Uh.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: They they had just become subservient to these these women.
Speaker 6: If the women are sexually incredible and they don't cheat
Speaker 6: on them, they're loyal to them and they'll do anything
Speaker 6: for him. And that's the way Jimmy was with with Ronda.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: Jimmy was kind of a passive sort of guy, pacifistic,
Speaker 6: you know, fun loving, and one of the characteristics is
Speaker 6: despite the fact that he had a lot of money,
Speaker 6: he was very egalitarian. He did not see social differences
Speaker 6: to people he did and he wasn't hoity toity, shall
Speaker 6: we say it, didn't see themselves better than anybody else.
Speaker 6: He could hang out with the yard guy or a
Speaker 6: king or a prince, didn't make any difference. He'd go
Speaker 6: to a restaurant, he might have fight the vallet after
Speaker 6: dinner with him. You know, he could relate to anybody. Unfortunately,
Speaker 6: as time went on, Jimmy started joining Ronda in some
Speaker 6: of her more recreational drug experiences. The difference between the
Speaker 6: two is, while they both wound up having predictable amounts
Speaker 6: of delusions, et cetera, being an over indulgence, particularly distribulance,
Speaker 6: will cause you know, very forms of temporary coosis. If
Speaker 6: you also have mental illness, those psychoses aren't temporary. There
Speaker 6: in line is the big difference. Uh, Ronda had ongoing psychosis.
Speaker 6: Jimmy could get wacko and have delusions, but then uh
Speaker 6: he'd stop. You know, he could do you know, I
Speaker 6: would like they say, ninety five percent of the people
Speaker 6: who drink will never be alcoholics. Ninety five percent of
Speaker 6: people who use recreational drugs will ever readrug addicts. Most
Speaker 6: people who will use any kind of drug, maybe they'll
Speaker 6: use it two years and get bored and they'll stop.
Speaker 6: Most people in treatment or in treatment because they'll have
Speaker 6: got mad Adam and said him there, not the community
Speaker 6: to be there.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: She went off several times to metal institutions, treatment centers,
Speaker 6: et cetera. Multiple diagnoses of treatable metal illnesses. But unfortunately Ronda,
Speaker 6: as with many people, chose not to take her medications
Speaker 6: and you to drake and use recreational drugs on top
Speaker 6: of her unfortunate mental condition. To put those two together
Speaker 6: and you've got real problems.
Speaker 4: What was she diagnosed with and what exactly and when
Speaker 4: was this? I mean, we're talking about a relationship that
Speaker 4: spent fifteen years between these two, So let's go back
Speaker 4: to the beginning. Did she have a history of mental
Speaker 4: illness when she was a teenager? And then when she
Speaker 4: diagnosed a little bit later, what was the diagnosis?
Speaker 6: What she was when she was a young young adult,
Speaker 6: she was well, she was already into self medicating and
Speaker 6: recreational drug use in high school cetera, which is not unusual.
Speaker 6: But in the early nineties, et cetera, she already was
Speaker 6: having problems with alcoholism and stimula stimular use cocada, cetera,
Speaker 6: which is not uncommon. But she had feenured that she
Speaker 6: had a diagnosed metal illness, which the diagnosis has changed somebody.
Speaker 6: She was diagnosed bipolar disorder, and then later she was
Speaker 6: diagnosed with what's called psychosis NOS, which means psychosis not
Speaker 6: otherwise specified, meaning they could not keep her long enough
Speaker 6: to do an appropriate diagnosis. They could tell she knows,
Speaker 6: you have to have someone under appropriate care or examination
Speaker 6: long enough to determine, you know, it's like if you
Speaker 6: were vomiting, vomiting, but we don't know exactly why we
Speaker 6: haven't been able to nail it down well. In most states,
Speaker 6: you can't involuntarily keep someone in a mental institution over say,
Speaker 6: seventy two hours, unless they are either suicidal or homicidal
Speaker 6: threat to themselves or others. Well as she was neither.
Speaker 6: Even though her mother did a lot of efforts to
Speaker 6: try to get her help, and then so did her
Speaker 6: other friends, they couldn't keep her beyond a certain amount
Speaker 6: of times. She was in Betty Ford's for her Alcoholismhen
Speaker 6: she was out of there. And she can present herself
Speaker 6: very well. I mean, she's not continually wackled ninety nine
Speaker 6: percent of time. When I went to all jumping him.
Speaker 6: When I went to see her, it was very charming,
Speaker 6: very gracious, amusing, and yet I knew that if there
Speaker 6: were probably certain phrases I could say or topics I
Speaker 6: could bring up, it would trigger And sure enough, there
Speaker 6: were certain things I could say, and exactly as predicted
Speaker 6: by various experts, the eyes would blaze and she'd be
Speaker 6: right back per separating on her delusions. But you can
Speaker 6: snap her out of that also by changing the topic,
Speaker 6: so it's you know, it's something that a professional would
Speaker 6: have to deal with. Sadly, she came to believe some
Speaker 6: very extreme and dangerous delusions. They're wound up costing word
Speaker 6: for his life.
Speaker 4: Now, okay, tell us before you tell us the delusions,
Speaker 4: tell us basically what some of her well, before you
Speaker 4: talk about the delusions involving Jimmy Joyce, tell us just
Speaker 4: in general, some of the delusions she had that seemed
Speaker 4: to have been or some of the characteristics that manifested
Speaker 4: herself in her mental illness. You know, what was it
Speaker 4: these grandiose thoughts. Tell us a little bit about her
Speaker 4: character and the kinds of things she'd be hallucinating or
Speaker 4: being deluded about.
Speaker 6: Well in the early times when they were living together
Speaker 6: in Austin, early on, before before they split up, Before
Speaker 6: she lifts he s Houston and before there was any
Speaker 6: real perceived danger from her, she would call the police
Speaker 6: several times a week, thinking they were burglaries in process
Speaker 6: in her hall, or if there were bodies buried in
Speaker 6: the backyard, or that the bodies in the wall, or
Speaker 6: that Jimmy had had killed people. But they asked her
Speaker 6: whis and while she was reading a true crime book
Speaker 6: and she saw pictures of one of the suspects and
Speaker 6: he kind of looked like like, yeah, turned one time
Speaker 6: he'd taken their son to the movies, but she thought
Speaker 6: he killed him and buried him and you know, put
Speaker 6: him in the attic turn another with the movies. But
Speaker 6: every time they'd ask Jimmy, you're are you okay? Are
Speaker 6: you worried about this? And Jimmy would always say, Hey,
Speaker 6: it's okay, She'll be fine in a little bit. I
Speaker 6: can always calm her down. I'm not in any danger
Speaker 6: from her. And no matter what, he would always say, hey,
Speaker 6: I'm not concerned. She would never hurt me. I'm in
Speaker 6: no danger from her.
Speaker 4: And they would have a designation that the police or
Speaker 4: emergency workers do. Was it the EDP or something some.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, they would They would always note on their
Speaker 6: ed p which means a mostly disturbed person, and they
Speaker 6: would ask is she had danger to herself or an
Speaker 6: others and Jim, we would say no, she wouldn't hurt herself,
Speaker 6: she wouldn't really hurt anybody else, and she calmed down
Speaker 6: in a bit, and usually she would, uh you know it,
Speaker 6: It would just kind of go in these fits and starts,
Speaker 6: and uh, you know it was he was willing to
Speaker 6: put up with all sorts of stuff. And then he
Speaker 6: got kind of almost as as wacky as Shoe was
Speaker 6: for a while because they were they were both drinking
Speaker 6: and using together and they both got delusional and things
Speaker 6: got pretty bad, and the Child Protected Services TEP CANON
Speaker 6: and wanted to give custody to the child to the.
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Speaker 6: Details to the grandmother to Ronda's mother, because the Ronda
Speaker 6: was wacko and Jimmy seem pretty wacko too, And Ronda
Speaker 6: made a deal with her mom that hey, she cleaned up,
Speaker 6: and you know, the mom would keep an eye on her.
Speaker 6: So Ronda moved back down. She was sending Jimmy didn't
Speaker 6: have any cuts to West whoever, they never actually were
Speaker 6: legally married, and uh, but Ronda kind of flipped out
Speaker 6: again and took off with the kid. And that was
Speaker 6: the problem. Ronda and her child were missing for an
Speaker 6: extended period of time. No one knew where they were. Uh,
Speaker 6: and that was a problem.
Speaker 4: Ron She's supposed to when she's supposed to hand the
Speaker 4: child over to protection services anyway, because because she had
Speaker 4: her restrictions or something about the condition she had she
Speaker 4: had broken it was wasn't that the well, yeah, she.
Speaker 6: Had she had, she broke into condition. She was supposed
Speaker 6: to turn the child over to her over to her mother. Instead,
Speaker 6: she took off and actually she tried to get across
Speaker 6: to Canada, across the Canadian border, but the tabs on
Speaker 6: her car. It was the new car that Jimmy had
Speaker 6: bought her, and it just had the paper license and
Speaker 6: that isn't good enough for leaving the country or getting
Speaker 6: into Canada. So they turned her back around and said
Speaker 6: she was on her way home. Well, she didn't come
Speaker 6: home and they didn't know where she was. In fact,
Speaker 6: when Jimmy's body was found, it was Ronda's aunt who
Speaker 6: had gone to Jimmy's house looking for Rondo. Why was
Speaker 6: she look by Rondo?
Speaker 4: Why was she talking there?
Speaker 6: Because Ronda and Jimmy was still close. Maybe Jimmy knew
Speaker 6: where she was. Maybe Jimmy had her from her, you know.
Speaker 4: Right, So this is the July twenty fifth, two thousand
Speaker 4: and four, and so who finally, so the her friend
Speaker 4: finds the uh the body, or she doesn't actually.
Speaker 6: Tell me about it. The the aunt, you know, looking
Speaker 6: for Ronda, and the child decides to, you know, go
Speaker 6: buy Jimmy's house and the garage is opened, the cars there.
Speaker 6: She rings the bell, rings the bell, there's no answer.
Speaker 6: Comes back the next day, there's still no answer. She's
Speaker 6: a little concerned that, you know, maybe something bad has happened.
Speaker 6: Calls the police. The police go in and that's when
Speaker 6: they find Jimmy quite dead upstairs in the hallway with
Speaker 6: several bullets in him. And he's been dead for a
Speaker 6: couple of days, right, and now they don't know what's happened.
Speaker 6: They don't know if if Ronda is in danger, if
Speaker 6: the kids in danger. You no one knows for sure
Speaker 6: exactly what's going on now. Rocking the borrow Jimmy's best friend.
Speaker 6: Now he hasn't seen Jimmy in a couple of years.
Speaker 6: They had a little bit of a falling out over Ronda,
Speaker 6: actually over something that happened. And then all of a sudden,
Speaker 6: the Clear Blue Rocky gets a beautiful two thousand dollars
Speaker 6: gifts from Jimmy planting for his garden, and he calls Jimmy.
Speaker 6: He said, man, this is great to hear from you.
Speaker 6: Let me take you out. The two guys who've been
Speaker 6: best friends, who hadn't seen each other for years, So
Speaker 6: spent the afternoon together bumming around the farmer's market or whatever,
Speaker 6: having a wonderful time, just like the good old days.
Speaker 6: And let me buy you dinner. So Simmy says, well, okay,
Speaker 6: Because they're like in their shorts and T shirts and stuff.
Speaker 6: It was a hot Texas day. So take me by
Speaker 6: the house, let me shower, change my clothes. You do
Speaker 6: the same, and give me a call when you're reading,
Speaker 6: come pick me up and we'll go out for dinner.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 6: So Rocky goes home, shower, shaves, gets off the phone.
Speaker 6: No answer, no answer, no answer. That's because Jimmy's dead. Ye,
Speaker 6: finally he gets I get to eat. What the hell
Speaker 6: is going on, Jimmy, pull on me here? Finally gets
Speaker 6: a call, you know, like a y or so later
Speaker 6: for the cops and the Savarrow. Jimmy Joseph is dead.
Speaker 6: We've found his cell phone. There's about like fifteen calls,
Speaker 6: and you're experienced to be here. The last person saw
Speaker 6: him alive, Rocky says, hell, no, I'm not the last
Speaker 6: person who saw him alive. Wherever children was the last
Speaker 6: person who saw him alive. He was just you know,
Speaker 6: he was, you know, really upset. He still lived. He
Speaker 6: was the best friend. And they would calm down tomorrow,
Speaker 6: you know, calm down, come down with you know, we
Speaker 6: need to talk to you. Well too, they didn't need
Speaker 6: to talk to him, after all, They their investigation quickly
Speaker 6: figured out that that Ronda Glover had been in town,
Speaker 6: had gone through the shooting range there in Austin, just
Speaker 6: got too far from the house and got directly from
Speaker 6: the firing range to the house and had Sean Jimmy
Speaker 6: quite dead.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how many there was? How many shots just for
Speaker 4: the audience? How many guns you? Well?
Speaker 6: Thirteen? I think that the math is a little wrong
Speaker 6: on the back of the book. I think she said
Speaker 6: this thirteen times altogether. Of course, she's basically the pet
Speaker 6: refers to the story. You want to go with, I'll
Speaker 6: go with mine. She's upstairs in the upstairs bedroom, waiting
Speaker 6: for him. He comes in, comes up the stairs, she's
Speaker 6: walking down the hall, torture. He gets to the bedroom door,
Speaker 6: she's waiting for him. She shoots him four times bam bam,
Speaker 6: ban bam, right there as he comes to the entryway
Speaker 6: of the bedroom. And then she follows. As he's stumbling
Speaker 6: backwards down the hall. She keeps firing so six of
Speaker 6: it had six more times whatever, that poor math. And
Speaker 6: then he's already dead on the floor. She stands over
Speaker 6: him and shoots him twice more below the waist, twice across,
Speaker 6: and then leaves I believe, and whatever bring on the
Speaker 6: book is it? She was expecting her and the child.
Speaker 6: He thought all three of them were going to go
Speaker 6: off to Canada together to start for new life. She
Speaker 6: tells the story that she went there believing he was
Speaker 6: out of town to get something out of the attic
Speaker 6: or a camping trip, and then he came home and
Speaker 6: surprised her, but she had a gun on her and
Speaker 6: he tried to strangle her, so she took out the gun.
Speaker 6: And it just didn't make any sense.
Speaker 4: Her story wasn't her version as well that originally she
Speaker 4: believed that she went into the home because she had
Speaker 4: called him or knew that he wasn't there. So, yeah,
Speaker 4: she called him and he was in Colorado, and then
Speaker 4: he comes home, and then years he come home and
Speaker 4: he's just sit here and wait for him to believe, well,
Speaker 4: if he lived there, he could be there a week.
Speaker 6: I didn't make any sense. And even she rehearsed the
Speaker 6: exact scenario of how she shot him with the guy
Speaker 6: because he's, well, what if I'm in the upstairs bedroom
Speaker 6: and the guy is coming down the hall. I mean,
Speaker 6: she rehearsed this headed down to a science, And as
Speaker 6: I mentioned that they weren't able to bring out at
Speaker 6: the trial why she did it the real underlying reason
Speaker 6: if which was and your audience will just be drop
Speaker 6: shout when they hear it. So brace yourself, well, tell
Speaker 6: me a little bit her love.
Speaker 4: Tell us sorry, tell our audience really what the so
Speaker 4: for a lot of people to delay it for rest
Speaker 4: because you've really done a good job of succinctly being
Speaker 4: able to explain this once and for all what is
Speaker 4: the law, especially in Texas. But it's a good idea.
Speaker 4: It gives you. You have given the thorough overview of
Speaker 4: what exactly is the insanity definition, what does it mean
Speaker 4: to be insane? And the hearing itself.
Speaker 6: This is very very important. A lot of people have
Speaker 6: the mistaken idea that anyone can just claimed the insanity
Speaker 6: events as although probably freedom in sanity, No, you hardly
Speaker 6: ever see it. Insanity defense is uses less than two
Speaker 6: percent of the time, and in any case, and it's
Speaker 6: almost one hundred percent of the time, is by mutual
Speaker 6: agreement of the prosecution and the defense. Insanity is not
Speaker 6: a medical term. It's a legal term, and the term
Speaker 6: varies depending on where you live. Now, if you're in Canada,
Speaker 6: I have no idea what the terminology is up there
Speaker 6: in the United States of America. It varies from state
Speaker 6: to state. You have in Texas as you have in Calibhich.
Speaker 6: California was called the McNaughton rule, which goes as follows.
Speaker 6: If you know it's against the law to kill somebody,
Speaker 6: you're not insane. So it doesn't matter how crazy you are.
Speaker 6: If you know it's against the law, you're not insane.
Speaker 6: Well that's insane. Sure. For example, we have a fellow
Speaker 6: on death. While he's been on death Ordier in California forever,
Speaker 6: it probably will be killed ten people in one day
Speaker 6: because he was nuts and he believed that there was
Speaker 6: going to be a giant earthquake in California, and the
Speaker 6: only way to save millions of lives is if there
Speaker 6: were ten people who were going to psychically communicate with him,
Speaker 6: were willing to give their lives to save the lives
Speaker 6: of millions. What he was supposed to do was get
Speaker 6: in his car, drive around town until one by one
Speaker 6: those ten people psychically communicated with him, at which time
Speaker 6: he would sacrifice their life, which he did. He killed
Speaker 6: ten people at about ninety minutes, and they arrested him
Speaker 6: and he goes, but it worked. But look, we didn't
Speaker 6: have the earthquake, did we. Yeah, augous, that is completely
Speaker 6: out of his mind. But if you ask the question,
Speaker 6: is it against the law to kill people, well, of
Speaker 6: course it is, But look how many lives we saved.
Speaker 6: They were in on this with me. He was volume
Speaker 6: because he's crazy, But it doesn't make any difference. Andre
Speaker 6: Thomas in Texas ate his eyeball in the court room.
Speaker 6: When it was found, Gelly ripped out the other eyeball
Speaker 6: and ain't that one too? Said, Yeah, he's nuts, but
Speaker 6: by the law, he's not insane because he knows it's
Speaker 6: against the law to kill somebody. Most people who kill
Speaker 6: people when they're not doing it in an act of
Speaker 6: passion because they're mad at him, right, It's usually because
Speaker 6: they think they're responding to a higher power that God
Speaker 6: told them to The Lord told me to kill this person,
Speaker 6: you know I'm about you know, they think they're responding
Speaker 6: to a divine higher calling, which is in Ronda's case,
Speaker 6: she thought she was doing God's will by killing Satan,
Speaker 6: you know, and uh, they think they're you know, they
Speaker 6: believe they're doing the right thing. Even though it maybe
Speaker 6: against man's law, they're operating on a higher level. Well,
Speaker 6: too bad. Under the mcnonden rule, if you simply have
Speaker 6: knowledge of that it's not right to shoot people, then
Speaker 6: you're not insane. It varies in you know, the states,
Speaker 6: the law is different, but in Texas, California and several others,
Speaker 6: it doesn't matter how mentally deranged you are. If you
Speaker 6: know you're not supposed to kill people, you're not insane.
Speaker 6: So you couldn't even bring up for problems.
Speaker 4: Now you do before you get to the trial, you
Speaker 4: do bring up the famous authors, many of them had
Speaker 4: him on my program. And you talk about Fred Wilson,
Speaker 4: you talk Caitlin Rother, you talk with Oh, well, tell
Speaker 4: us about a few people that you do talk to
Speaker 4: and and what did What's the question you posed to
Speaker 4: them about this subject? While we're on this subject, What
Speaker 4: is their take on it? Because I thought that I
Speaker 4: thought it was very useful.
Speaker 6: Well, I thought it would be a fun thing to do,
Speaker 6: is to ask other true crime authors who deal with
Speaker 6: this sort of stuff what they think. Should the jury
Speaker 6: be allowed to know whether or not the person on
Speaker 6: trial for murders nuts, you know, should they be allowed
Speaker 6: to know that right, And some of them said I
Speaker 6: don't care, and others said, uh yeah, I want all
Speaker 6: the information I could get. How can I make an
Speaker 6: informed decision if information is withheld for me? If this
Speaker 6: person has been in and out of mental institutions, at
Speaker 6: the his bodies in the wall and things, God's talking
Speaker 6: to her, Demons are talking to her, the dog's talking
Speaker 6: to her. I want to know about it. However, the
Speaker 6: Texas laws know that jury could not be told. They
Speaker 6: weren't allowed to know about that until it got to
Speaker 6: the sentencing phase. Then there could only be, you know,
Speaker 6: very oblique references to the fact that she'd had a
Speaker 6: history of Bentley hillness. And the reason I wanted to
Speaker 6: talk to other true crime authors is not really because
Speaker 6: I like them and they're fun to talk to, but
Speaker 6: because of the wide differences of opinion. He managed one thing,
Speaker 6: Stephen Longside something else. Caitlin Rossia felt differently, and it's
Speaker 6: it's a controversial topic, especially controversial for the person whose
Speaker 6: life was taken in with the one whose life is
Speaker 6: a state. There is a real disconnect. I don't know
Speaker 6: about in your country, but see America, there is a
Speaker 6: real disconnect between what science knows and what people believe
Speaker 6: on all matter of topics. Oh, sure, there is common
Speaker 6: knowledge and then there's fact. And if you try to
Speaker 6: disrupt people's frequency ideas were facts, sometimes they don't want
Speaker 6: to hear it. I'll just give you a real common one.
Speaker 6: Have you ever heard that that crack cocaine is instantly addicting?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 6: The truth is most people who try it don't like it.
Speaker 6: The majority of people who do like it and use
Speaker 6: it quit using it any time between two months and
Speaker 6: two years. Ninety five percent of people who use it
Speaker 6: never become addicted. It has the same addiction ratio as
Speaker 6: just about anything else, which is ninety five percent of
Speaker 6: people use it never become addicted. And yet that certainly
Speaker 6: makes for nice headlines, doesn't it. You ever heard of
Speaker 6: crack babies or meth babies after the same as tobacco babies.
Speaker 6: By the way, the only drug don't do really caused
Speaker 6: massive damage to infance his alcohol. We have the alcohol syndrome.
Speaker 6: All this information is available to anyone who wants to
Speaker 6: do scientific or medical research. But if you want to
Speaker 6: read scary headlines or there's no exploitation press, you can
Speaker 6: get all sorts of misinformation that unfortunately translates into repressive
Speaker 6: and recording laws that put innocent people or you know,
Speaker 6: semi innocent people behind bars or subject to all sorts
Speaker 6: of mistreatment and prejudice. And it's scary, it's very very scary.
Speaker 6: I'm you know, I come from that school of journalism,
Speaker 6: and I literally mean school. I went to the University
Speaker 6: of City Journalism and I had was fairly impressed on
Speaker 6: me the importance of journalistic ethics. And now in an
Speaker 6: age when anyone with a keyboard a blog it calls
Speaker 6: themselves a journalist. And you have radio shows where you
Speaker 6: have filed by talk show and indictment by sound bite,
Speaker 6: and people talking on radio and TV shows on who's
Speaker 6: guilty with no one's even been charged. I don't know
Speaker 6: how people can get a fair file.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's it's very it's very interesting too. They're
Speaker 4: just feeding you know, we don't even have to mention
Speaker 4: any names, but you know, you know, but anyway, Hillbilly
Speaker 4: Central there on on TV where you know, I mean,
Speaker 4: it's it's incredible, it's like, it's it's the very it's
Speaker 4: the most simplistic, minded, emotional person got on the air.
Speaker 4: This person just Strokes, those kinds of people, and the
Speaker 4: whole show is like that. You see books now, it's amazing.
Speaker 4: Kensington will not publish a book that doesn't have the
Speaker 4: case finished, well not. Other publishers will also, and there's
Speaker 4: a book out and.
Speaker 6: Even then even in the case here is that now
Speaker 6: Caitlin Roffe, who I admired greatly intact, her book Poison
Speaker 6: Love is being re released to and about the case
Speaker 6: of San Diego. Now that's a real wild one. There
Speaker 6: were two books on that case and the person was
Speaker 6: found guilty and then turns out the prosecutor framed him.
Speaker 6: Why so they could be heroes and a true crime book.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, yeah, crazy story. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 6: It's a scary thing. Michael agrees back. I don't know
Speaker 6: if you've had him on your show.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just had him on last week. Actually was great.
Speaker 4: His book was amazing.
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Speaker 4: Book.
Speaker 6: Yeah, great book, great guy. And he was talking about
Speaker 6: he was watching one of those TV shows where they
Speaker 6: were talking about the case he was doing, and you
Speaker 6: were talking about buckets and blood. He's what buckets of blood?
Speaker 4: There?
Speaker 6: Talking about things that don't exist.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, well that's yeah, that's journalism. The state of it.
Speaker 4: It's not too accurate. There's no one to check on it.
Speaker 6: Well, at least the Canadian government had a good sense
Speaker 6: to you still got that lot there where it's against
Speaker 6: the law to tell a lion call it news. In America, Uh,
Speaker 6: we all went to the courts on that on uh
Speaker 6: you know we have this network down here at Fox News. Yeah,
Speaker 6: went and Fort and they said, yes, they admitted that
Speaker 6: they make stuff up, but they said this protected under
Speaker 6: a First amendment of free speech. We can lie and
Speaker 6: call it news because there's free speech. And they want
Speaker 6: on that basis, which is a mixed blessing.
Speaker 4: He is.
Speaker 6: I'm a big fan of free speech, but for some
Speaker 6: but I think that Canada's got the right idea where
Speaker 6: you can't call it news if it's not true.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, the thing is that to solve
Speaker 4: to actually wind its way through court, we take about
Speaker 4: fifteen years. You Actually, most people will have passed away
Speaker 4: by that time. Here, I think gets done very quickly here,
Speaker 4: and then it's appealed and then pondered upon, and then
Speaker 4: an inquiry about the outcome and then So don't hold
Speaker 4: your breath on that. You know, it's if you're not
Speaker 4: too satisfied how it works there, be prepared to be
Speaker 4: not so satisfied here. You know, we haven't even got
Speaker 4: into and we'll wait till the very end, but we
Speaker 4: haven't gotten into the comparison. I will give you a
Speaker 4: case here that the psychiatrists have assured the victim's mother
Speaker 4: that this guy should be manageable in the community in
Speaker 4: five years. And you won't believe the difference. Again, we
Speaker 4: fallow the McNaughton rule. And we've had an evolution, certainly
Speaker 4: in this kind of defense, and certainly insanity defense doesn't
Speaker 4: work very often but we've made some advances that you
Speaker 4: would be concerned with. It's sort of the opposite. We
Speaker 4: just have sort of a fuller opposite from your system.
Speaker 4: It's very interesting.
Speaker 6: Well, it's very strange. You know. I'm working on a
Speaker 6: book right now that I'm actually writing for somebody else,
Speaker 6: a ghost books shure, we say, not a supernatural, but
Speaker 6: I'm running, you know, for some and two hundred years ago,
Speaker 6: if you want to have someone involuntarily committed, all you
Speaker 6: had to do was get above fee people to say, oh,
Speaker 6: they should be put away, and if they object to
Speaker 6: say I shouldn't be put away, that's considered proof they
Speaker 6: should be put away. Sure, well, they've made that far
Speaker 6: more difficult to do that, of course people with petally illness.
Speaker 6: But they've made it real easy to do that with
Speaker 6: people who you can say are drug addicts or alcoholics.
Speaker 6: I could say, you know, Dan zapants Key should be
Speaker 6: put away because uh, he's a Repels, was a drug addicts,
Speaker 6: an alcoholic, and I fet people will say so, and
Speaker 6: they'll say Dan, are you and you say no, Well,
Speaker 6: that's the fact that you say no is taking a
Speaker 6: proof that you are, and therefore you're could be put away. Yeah,
Speaker 6: many states who have that. Now, it's very scary, very scary.
Speaker 4: Now with this getting back to Ronda Glover, there is
Speaker 4: a very very important person in this trial here and
Speaker 4: we may be jumping ahead, but this is something that
Speaker 4: happened a while back before this, uh, this the murder itself,
Speaker 4: and this is Patricia Swinson And what did she what
Speaker 4: did she tell police? And what did what did Ronda
Speaker 4: know about her? And she apparently called her and what
Speaker 4: did they talk about all that conversation about who's.
Speaker 6: Patriciuswincident and Ronda were good friends on and off for many,
Speaker 6: many years. And Ronda and Patricia had gone out one
Speaker 6: night and Ronda had had told Patricia her big plans
Speaker 6: for Jimmy, that she was going to seduce him and
Speaker 6: then cut his venus off and burn the house down.
Speaker 6: Why oh, because because of the same reason she basically
Speaker 6: killed him because he was Satan, because he was in
Speaker 6: league with the devil, and he and George W. Bush
Speaker 6: were having homosexual sex with clones and conducting papers, paked
Speaker 6: sacrifices in the cave under her house and chopping up
Speaker 6: little children and serving them in barbecue restaurants. No usual reasons. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and so Patty, well, there was a fire up there
Speaker 6: in the area of Jimmy's house, and Patty thought, my god,
Speaker 6: she really done this and turned out that wasn't it. Well,
Speaker 6: went went, Ronda finally did kill Jimmy, and Patty was
Speaker 6: going to testify that. It's one of the things the
Speaker 6: prosecution was going on is that she'd had this in
Speaker 6: mind for a long time. She'd been planning this. Well,
Speaker 6: the fact that Patricia could say, well, yeah, we have
Speaker 6: this conversation at such and such a restaurant way back
Speaker 6: in June of whatever where she was priding to kill him, right, So, well,
Speaker 6: Ronda found out about this and called her on the
Speaker 6: phone and said, you don't remember that conversation because you
Speaker 6: were drunk that night. We were at such and such
Speaker 6: a restaurant and I said I was going to kill him.
Speaker 6: She didn't remember before.
Speaker 4: She does now Yeah, she just acknowledged it. Yeah, pretty saddy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, uh it was, you know, it was. The
Speaker 6: whole thing is so sad. I mean, it is so sad.
Speaker 6: It is sad for Jimmy because he's dead and all
Speaker 6: of his friends and family. It's sad for their child.
Speaker 6: They have a son, for Heaven's sake, he's about sixteen,
Speaker 6: seventeen years old. And I heard from him and he says,
Speaker 6: you know, no one knows what it was like, you
Speaker 6: know except me. Can you know? Some people portray her
Speaker 6: as a gold digger though she was and she could
Speaker 6: have she could have, you know, file child surprise. She
Speaker 6: was kidded about ten grand a month of Jimmy anyway,
Speaker 6: had she told me when I was busy and she said,
Speaker 6: My son says, Mom, why don't you just admit you're crazy?
Speaker 6: And she says, because I'm not, you know, And I
Speaker 6: didn't realize she still had these same delusions. Bless her
Speaker 6: unfortunate heart.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because you had to because it did have the
Speaker 4: benefit of having her not doing See, here's the thing
Speaker 4: that I think we got to explain too, because this
Speaker 4: is part of the law as well. If you have
Speaker 4: a certified mental illness, that'd be one thing and would
Speaker 4: help at least the penalty phase. But if you're not
Speaker 4: taking a medication, plus you are doing you're not going
Speaker 4: applying with that order, and plus you're doing illicited drugs
Speaker 4: on top of that, you really are not going to
Speaker 4: qualify for any kind of reduction order any credit at all.
Speaker 6: And yet the use of illicit drugs by people with
Speaker 6: mental illness is symptomatic. Suretic, I mean you know that,
Speaker 6: it's like that's one of the characteristics. Sure, It's like,
Speaker 6: you know, it's like arresting a drug addict for having drugs.
Speaker 6: I mean you know it's well done. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: it's like, you know, arresting an alcoholic for drinking. I mean,
Speaker 6: what do you expect arresting simple with you know, indigestion
Speaker 6: for having an upstistemic. Uh, it's they go together and
Speaker 6: so but of coursely under the law, if if you
Speaker 6: have a mental illness and you've also been drinking or drugging,
Speaker 6: then the gates getting compassion. Well, the use of drugs
Speaker 6: and alcohol by people with illnesses far more common because
Speaker 6: tend to be used as a form of self medication.
Speaker 6: So yes, dealing with what's real is so difficult for people. Yeah,
Speaker 6: it's like, well, how we think things should be or
Speaker 6: how other people should behave compared to what's real life.
Speaker 6: The disconnect is so great, it's tragic. But anyway, I
Speaker 6: almost lost track or whatever the question was.
Speaker 4: But what she had a competency hearing so she was
Speaker 4: declared not competent at first.
Speaker 6: This is so bizarre. This is so bizarre. You explain
Speaker 6: this one to me. They okay, well, she was arrested,
Speaker 6: it was the tribut she was not under the influence.
Speaker 6: So then he drugs or alcohol whatsoever. She was Cleaton Solbridge,
Speaker 6: who was also out of her mind. Right, Right, she
Speaker 6: goes to the metal hospital after she's arrested because she's
Speaker 6: blatantly nuts. They have for and they have a competency hearing,
Speaker 6: and she's found not competent to stand trial because she
Speaker 6: is delusional, completely delusional. But she's delusional when arrested. She's
Speaker 6: not under the influence of any drugs that will give
Speaker 6: her temporary psychosis. It's fairly reasonable to assume she was delusional,
Speaker 6: as she pulled the trigger thirteen times the day before. Right,
Speaker 6: she's not competent to stand trial. They sent her off
Speaker 6: to the Midmistitution. She gets a new lawyer, They give
Speaker 6: her some drugs to calm her down. And then this
Speaker 6: is what they do. They say, it's dangerous for you
Speaker 6: to mention the delusions. Can you not mention them if
Speaker 6: your lawyer tells you not to? By that, and she
Speaker 6: told me because she said I was told it was dangerous. Girl,
Speaker 6: It's dangerous for you too. She was worried that I
Speaker 6: would be hurt. Yeah, if I mentioned them. When they
Speaker 6: told her it's dangerous, she thought she meant that someone
Speaker 6: might come into the courtroom and kill her or bump
Speaker 6: her off if she mentioned these things. So she agrees
Speaker 6: to not manifest the symptom of her incompetence by agreeing
Speaker 6: to not look incompetent. She's declared competent. She was no
Speaker 6: more competent to stand trial when she used to a trial,
Speaker 6: and the days just sound incompetent. The only difference was
Speaker 6: she agreed to hide her incompetence.
Speaker 4: Now we'll get to that. The thing is I wanted
Speaker 4: to mention as well, is that because that there's a
Speaker 4: lot of this information about previous mental illness diagnosis, and
Speaker 4: of course you know, mounds of evidence to support that
Speaker 4: she has this particular odd behavior with a police contact beforehand,
Speaker 4: her lawyer has to go with self defense. It's not
Speaker 4: an insanity defense for the audience. It self defense.
Speaker 6: Absolutely no choice. The lawyer couldn't say, listen, my client's
Speaker 6: been nuts for years. She has this ongoing delusion that
Speaker 6: Jimmy Jose to George W. Busher having homosexual sex of
Speaker 6: the cave under her house with clones, and or sacrificing
Speaker 6: children and putting them in barbiesho sauce, and she thought
Speaker 6: she was killing Satan and put her in a mental
Speaker 6: institution for the rest of her life. He couldn't do that,
Speaker 6: He couldn't even mention it. So instead he had to
Speaker 6: say a self defense, which was easily disproven. And she
Speaker 6: is in prison and receiving absolutely no mental health care whatsoever.
Speaker 4: Now, before we get to that, she made quite an
Speaker 4: appearance at the trial itself. She took the stand, and
Speaker 4: people don't know that's quite a fairly rare occurrence. How
Speaker 4: did she conduct the shelf happen? Yeah?
Speaker 6: No, I think the reason, the reason her lawyer had
Speaker 6: her do that is he kept trying to get the
Speaker 6: door open legally to address these other issues. Sure, and
Speaker 6: she's such a loose canon and she was still incompetent
Speaker 6: no matter what the court said that if he could
Speaker 6: put her on the stand, kind of like that movie
Speaker 6: with you know, Richard Year and Edward Norton. You know,
Speaker 6: he put the guy onunderstands that people can see his nuts.
Speaker 6: I think that was the technique. I think if he
Speaker 6: figured that she would say things and do things, they
Speaker 6: would cause legal doors to open. That they could bring
Speaker 6: out the fact that she had been diagnosed mentally hill
Speaker 6: for years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they could say they never they never planned it,
Speaker 4: they never planned it.
Speaker 6: It happened. Yeah. But offortunately didn't work.
Speaker 4: You know, she did how did she how did she
Speaker 4: conduct herself at say, at the beginning of the testimony,
Speaker 4: and how long did it last? O?
Speaker 6: Well, she got up there and she tried to say
Speaker 6: she was going to faint, and this end of the
Speaker 6: table and it had the other thing, and she cries
Speaker 6: and weeps and moans, and she talks about how much
Speaker 6: she feared Jimmy, and you know how she she had
Speaker 6: to protect herself and he grabbed her by the throat.
Speaker 6: But then under cross examination, when the prosecution goes to
Speaker 6: talk to her fam, her demeanor changed so fast, all
Speaker 6: of a sudden, she was the other Rohnda. She was
Speaker 6: cold as ice and snappy, and you know yeah, I
Speaker 6: mean they saw the change. The jurius saw the change,
Speaker 6: but it didn't work in her favor. It didn't come
Speaker 6: up like, oh, there's something wrong with this woman. It's
Speaker 6: more like, what was this nonsense of her crying a
Speaker 6: few minutes ago and she's cold as her ice?
Speaker 4: Now, yeah, yeah, I thought it particularly amusing too. She said,
Speaker 4: I'm going to go into a state of shock, kind
Speaker 4: of like she was stalling. It seemed like to me,
Speaker 4: just following the dialogue, that she was stalling for time
Speaker 4: a little bit, and they didn't have to press her. Okay,
Speaker 4: answer the question, I'm gonna faint.
Speaker 6: I know how she was going to answer. I mean,
Speaker 6: no matter how much your attorney mayor rehearsed her, well,
Speaker 6: he had his own problems dealing with her, you know,
Speaker 6: because all you have to do is say cave or
Speaker 6: bubble gum or almost sexual or you know, and bam,
Speaker 6: she's off. She's off and running. You know, she's right
Speaker 6: back there that there's a child sacrifices in the cave,
Speaker 6: and you know she's gone.
Speaker 4: What I want to add, what I wanted to ask you,
Speaker 4: and I know, is the audience doesn't know that. The
Speaker 4: of course, the refrain from the prosecution is that we
Speaker 4: they don't have to prove motive. But isn't it a
Speaker 4: It isn't a capital case like this and in a
Speaker 4: serious murder case. Isn't the absence of motive? Isn't that
Speaker 4: something that the lawyer that the lawyer was quite good
Speaker 4: in here at least you depict him as being pretty capable,
Speaker 4: and he felt very hard for his client. But isn't
Speaker 4: that I mean, I even though it's it's they don't
Speaker 4: have to prove it. Isn't the lack of any reasonable
Speaker 4: motive kind of proof that.
Speaker 6: Well, they were able to show self defense at least
Speaker 6: that she that she supposedly that he was, that she
Speaker 6: had things against him. The brushes tried to say that
Speaker 6: she killed him because she was tired of it, which
Speaker 6: he doesn't make any sense. But it doesn't matter. The
Speaker 6: only thing that matters is she pulled the trigger thirteen times,
Speaker 6: and an unharmed and innocent man who posed no threat
Speaker 6: to her whatsoever, she killed him. He posed no threat.
Speaker 6: He loved her, he loved their child. He thought they
Speaker 6: were going away together, little halfway over afrit Canada, and
Speaker 6: said she killed him. And that was my personal face.
Speaker 6: She shouldn't be able walk the street if she's mad
Speaker 6: at me today. I don't want her to have a
Speaker 6: blockdown melometer and coming after me. Yes, she's pretty Yes,
Speaker 6: she's charming, and I'm glad she's somewhere where she's safe
Speaker 6: and she's not hurting anybody. I think it would be
Speaker 6: in her best Now. I don't know what the medal
Speaker 6: institutions are like. Whether it's better to be in prison
Speaker 6: it better to be in a medal institution depends on
Speaker 6: which way you are and what they're like. I do
Speaker 6: know she told me that my book has caused us
Speaker 6: some problems in the prison and if people read the book. Uh,
Speaker 6: and you know, she kept telling me that she's never
Speaker 6: been medalial, she's never had a meddle of diagnosis. And
Speaker 6: of course that's not true, but that's what she keeps
Speaker 6: saying and believing. And they thought in prison she was
Speaker 6: just fine. Well, of course, doctor reading this book they
Speaker 6: made I think would be in her best interest to
Speaker 6: have some metal health examination, that some mental health treatment.
Speaker 6: I'm not a doctor, but I think would be in
Speaker 6: her best interests.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Where you know, there's a big controversy here, and
Speaker 4: I won't go into it here, but just for a
Speaker 4: frame of reference, Uh, what do you think should happen
Speaker 4: to a person like Rhonda? You clearly, at least it
Speaker 4: seems that you're siding with that she's clearly should fit
Speaker 4: the definition of insane and it should certainly be treated
Speaker 4: in a mental institution. But in this country it's a
Speaker 4: little bit different because we're letting everybody out, like I
Speaker 4: mean seriously, and especially insane people. Seem at least a
Speaker 4: psychiatrist here believe that with medication and with time that
Speaker 4: certainly almost anybody, and I mean anybody can be released. Now,
Speaker 4: what do you think personally in terms of release, in
Speaker 4: terms of if they did rehabilitate her mentally, but then
Speaker 4: she stand trial again and pay for it, or.
Speaker 6: What is your idea that would that would that would
Speaker 6: be ridiculous, That would be ridiculous. That's like when they
Speaker 6: give people medication to make them competent enough to be executed. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I felt that that. Yeah, again, there's all sorts of mean.
Speaker 6: Like a very good friend of mine in Walla, Walla, Washington,
Speaker 6: doctor Steve Rubys were the leading experts on sexual offenders,
Speaker 6: especially teen sexual offenders, and as he points out by that,
Speaker 6: you know, if it's a former sexual offender, you know
Speaker 6: in six situational sex offenders, especially the situational child molestios,
Speaker 6: are not pedophiles, they respond incredibly well to therapy. Most
Speaker 6: of them never ever do it again, cont once have treatment,
Speaker 6: and are exemplar resistance the rest of their lives. The
Speaker 6: biggest danger they face upon being released and trying to
Speaker 6: get into society as people hounding them, berating them and
Speaker 6: soulding them and putting them under so much stress they frack,
Speaker 6: which is entirely different than pedophiles, entirely diffident situational child molester.
Speaker 6: But the situational sex offender responds well to therapy and
Speaker 6: usually if they're lucky enough to get it, they're not
Speaker 6: going to cause a problem. Where you have a problem
Speaker 6: is where you have a defender and all you do
Speaker 6: is lock them up for a year in a county
Speaker 6: jail and then let them out and you don't give
Speaker 6: them any help. I mean, this comes to this whole
Speaker 6: weird disconnect between what people believe and what's true. If
Speaker 6: I'm mentally ill, I'm going to behave in appropriately. If
Speaker 6: your treat be and if I get medication, and if
Speaker 6: I take my let's fight for prosecution. Said they're on
Speaker 6: the Glover case. There are millions of people who are
Speaker 6: bipolar and have various forms of psychosis who get up
Speaker 6: in the morning, they take their pill and they're fine
Speaker 6: all day long. And that's a fact she chose not
Speaker 6: to take her medication.
Speaker 4: But it's can the same be said? But can be
Speaker 4: the same be said for those people that go over
Speaker 4: the line, just like you make the distinction in your book?
Speaker 4: I found it very interesting again in a new one
Speaker 4: for me, how clear it was put in your book.
Speaker 4: There's a sociopath, which may be your boss's real prick,
Speaker 4: but then there's a psychopath, the worst of that word
Speaker 4: of that sociopathic designation. So what are you saying here
Speaker 4: in terms of this person can be treated? But is
Speaker 4: there there's a huge difference between the very harmless schizophrenic
Speaker 4: and the person that commits this kind of murder? Is
Speaker 4: there not a distinction? And what do you do with
Speaker 4: this person? You treat them? But can you ever let
Speaker 4: can you ever let rona Glover out say she was responding?
Speaker 6: Now, that would be something if he is highly individualized.
Speaker 6: It's been suggested that people says as Ron the Glover
Speaker 6: would be because they committed murder and very hot blood
Speaker 6: or murder in that case would perhaps be saidence to
Speaker 6: life in uh in a metal metal care facility. Right,
Speaker 6: just as if they committed its sane they would spend
Speaker 6: their life if found guilty of murder in a prison,
Speaker 6: that she would spend or because whatever the sentence was,
Speaker 6: that they would spend the equivalent sentence in a metal hospital,
Speaker 6: which is going to make it worship better than being
Speaker 6: in a prison. You know, the idea is to protect people.
Speaker 6: You know, people think in terms of prison in terms
Speaker 6: of punishment and revenge, which impunitive model, which is the
Speaker 6: punitive model has always been found to be the least
Speaker 6: effective way of affecting any change in anybody. If you
Speaker 6: punish people for lying, you know what happens, they lie more.
Speaker 6: If you reward people for telling the truth, they become moronest.
Speaker 6: So we have this whole ass backwards saying of punishing
Speaker 6: people in the change, which doesn't work. You put people
Speaker 6: in prison to protect us from the predator people. If
Speaker 6: you're going to put them, you hopefully are going to
Speaker 6: do something that will reduce recidivism them coming back to prison.
Speaker 6: Except the problem there is and believe me, I worked
Speaker 6: in prison recidivism as it Timothy Leary years and years ago,
Speaker 6: where he worked on a program that reduced the odds
Speaker 6: of someone coming back to prison. And he goes and
Speaker 6: he talks to the wardens, says, we have this program
Speaker 6: that seems to be working very well on reducing recidivism.
Speaker 6: And the wardens says, let me show you something. He
Speaker 6: shows them the plans to the new prison, which is larger,
Speaker 6: it employs more people. He says, listen, the prison industry
Speaker 6: is based on repeat business. We don't want these people
Speaker 6: not coming back. We want these people coming back.
Speaker 4: Well, I think you're talking about kind of too slightly
Speaker 4: two different things, because I know what you're speaking of,
Speaker 4: that the prison industry is filled up with a bunch
Speaker 4: of dummies that were never represented at trial. It's not
Speaker 4: like whole bunch of mobsters and the most hardcore criminals
Speaker 4: were caught and then put in prison and then those
Speaker 4: streets are safe for a while. Well, no, it's it's
Speaker 4: a bunch of dummies are in there once.
Speaker 6: You know that.
Speaker 4: Not so much dumbers, but they're they're they're costing us
Speaker 4: they can get, they're costing us more money than they
Speaker 4: can steal in a year. They're not even ambitious, you know, but.
Speaker 6: They most of it's victim was crimes, drug crimes, young
Speaker 6: people arrested for drugs minorities. Yeah, I interviewed the guy
Speaker 6: from the FBI former the FBI who brought crack cocaine
Speaker 6: into South central LA. One of the reasons danously continued
Speaker 6: having a prisoner class to arrest.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a plan.
Speaker 6: People don't want to hear it. But you know, hey,
Speaker 6: what's real? What's real?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, the thing is really I don't want
Speaker 4: to get onto this too much, but just for comparison,
Speaker 4: we have a guy. You probably heard about this, and
Speaker 4: I can't see how you didn't. But anyway, this guy
Speaker 4: was an Asian guy named Vincent Lee and l I
Speaker 4: and this guy got on a Greyhound bus outside of Winnipeg. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 4: so the bus beheading in cannibalism all.
Speaker 6: What he real I read him? Yeah, And when he
Speaker 6: got medicated and realized what he'd done, he begged to die.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. The thing is, though, that's that's interesting, And
Speaker 4: certainly he was a clear cutcase of being insane and
Speaker 4: he was found not criminally responsible as what they call
Speaker 4: it here I guess, which was called insane before. Now
Speaker 4: the thing is, he's in it. He's in a mental
Speaker 4: institution that has no fenses and within two years he
Speaker 4: has now been the They have a plan for him
Speaker 4: to go out for escorted walks with in a community
Speaker 4: where there's homes across the street, where there's no fences,
Speaker 4: and these people escorting him have no no guns.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: They that was after that.
Speaker 6: Threat. Does he pose threat whatsoever?
Speaker 4: The thing is is that he is of course less
Speaker 4: delusional from the medication. But what I'm saying is that
Speaker 4: they've already said, and I don't know how they conclude
Speaker 4: to this, but this is the kind of mentality we
Speaker 4: have here. You may find it welcoming. I'm not sure,
Speaker 4: but they've said to the parent of the victim that
Speaker 4: this guy will be likely out in about five years
Speaker 4: on medication. So that's where we're at in terms of
Speaker 4: this evolution of the idea that Okay, he's not criminally responsible,
Speaker 4: but then now we can fix them. And I say,
Speaker 4: I want to see this medication.
Speaker 6: You know, you know, it's very very possible we get
Speaker 6: it to say, oh no, that that that can't be.
Speaker 6: So that can't be so uh, and it can be,
Speaker 6: so it can't be. I'm surprised the guy has killed
Speaker 6: himself because he wanted to what he realized, what if
Speaker 6: you woke up and realized you've done that? Wow, what
Speaker 6: would you do? I mean, you could live with yourself.
Speaker 6: The guy could live with himself either. I mean, he's
Speaker 6: probably both hard and desire for they said, to tell
Speaker 6: us to kill himself, you know, my god, living with
Speaker 6: having done that.
Speaker 4: But he still might be in a state of he
Speaker 4: still might be in a state of delusion. But just
Speaker 4: you know, who knows.
Speaker 6: I mean, it was just like the doctor, his doctors
Speaker 6: would know.
Speaker 4: Well, the thing is, I just find it awfully interesting
Speaker 4: that a doctor can conclude, you know, with any kind
Speaker 4: of certainty that this guy can be out in a
Speaker 4: short period of time without I mean the thing is,
Speaker 4: people say, well, what if they don't take the medication?
Speaker 4: And I just say, what kind of medication do you have?
Speaker 4: Because I'm just not quite sure everybody can treat. There
Speaker 4: are some kinds of medication where they give them a
Speaker 4: shot and the shot lasts ninety.
Speaker 6: Days to six months, betting off time. But I was
Speaker 6: just waiting to In fact, I think I mentioned in
Speaker 6: the book the fellow who escapes from the mesastitution. Did
Speaker 6: he really oppose in danger? Well no, not actually in
Speaker 6: terms of like killing anybody because he was He just
Speaker 6: wanted to get the hell out. But in terms of
Speaker 6: that kind of behavior, oh, I've I've got friends of schizophetics.
Speaker 6: People have always afraid of schizophetics. Rese gistopheties are harmless.
Speaker 6: These people watch any movies. I think if it's a shot,
Speaker 6: because the man remember to take a pill every day,
Speaker 6: he gets a shot, the shot last tiney days, six months. Uh,
Speaker 6: you know he's fine. Uh, you know, there's a Just
Speaker 6: because we don't know doesn't mean someone else doesn't know.
Speaker 6: You know, just because we're not an expert auto mechanics
Speaker 6: doesn't mean there's someone that doesn't know how to fix
Speaker 6: a Lamborghini. Just because we don't know about cancer treatment
Speaker 6: doesn't mean there's someone who doesn't there's someone who doesn't
Speaker 6: know about treating Uh, you know, different kinds of illnesses. Uh.
Speaker 6: Projectile vomiting is also upsetting because people who know how
Speaker 6: to treat it.
Speaker 4: Well, you know that's the thing. But you do have
Speaker 4: all the emotion of the police and in the media,
Speaker 4: and as nothing worse.
Speaker 6: There's nothing worse than the combination of ignorance and emotion,
Speaker 6: and so you figure you could combine my ignorance of
Speaker 6: the top with my emotion on a topic, and I'm
Speaker 6: going to be a babbling idiot. So don't pay the
Speaker 6: attention to what I say. But if we bring in
Speaker 6: someone who knows what they're talking about, who's are recognized,
Speaker 6: who's very knowledgeable, and they say something, and if my
Speaker 6: emotions are high enough, I'm not I'm going to ignore
Speaker 6: what an expertcise anyway.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well.
Speaker 6: That's always that's always a thing. Well, how you know,
Speaker 6: that's what the logical fallacies. The absence of information is
Speaker 6: a proof of the of whatever the absence of information is.
Speaker 6: You know, Well, the fact that we don't know proves
Speaker 6: such and such. Now it doesn't it will see how
Speaker 6: do we know? Well, asked not tell? You know? Excuse me?
Speaker 6: Why is this person who is a former uh child
Speaker 6: molester released to a halfway house and you ask your thing?
Speaker 6: Because they were a situational molester. They had nothing to
Speaker 6: do with section, nothing to do with oldren, had to
Speaker 6: do with a stress response. They've had complete therapy. I've
Speaker 6: taken my professional reputation on the fact that if you
Speaker 6: leave them alone, they'll never do it again.
Speaker 4: Well, I guess I know you've always.
Speaker 6: Been twenty years of my life. As you know, it's
Speaker 6: like going to you as a journalist, it's like, how
Speaker 6: do you know what comma goes? There is spoddy pants.
Speaker 4: And I'm sure too, I'm sure too, you did. You
Speaker 4: weren't born with this open mind. You went through this
Speaker 4: evolution like all of us do, when facts are staring
Speaker 4: you right in the face and you got to you
Speaker 4: got to throw in. As a journalist, you've got to
Speaker 4: be that kind of journalist. And I know, especially as
Speaker 4: an author, that's the kind of that's why you've won
Speaker 4: the Edgar Edward Edgar Award because you and especially his evidence.
Speaker 4: By this book, you've got the details and you're giving
Speaker 4: the facts and you're trying to present the case that
Speaker 4: certainly this woman, if there is anyone, that fits the
Speaker 4: definition of insanity, And that's why she.
Speaker 6: Killed definitions right, because insanity is a legal trim, not
Speaker 6: a meta cool one. Yeah, And this is why people
Speaker 6: can spend hours talking about this book if they don't
Speaker 6: think it's filler. Now there's actually on Amazon someone said
Speaker 6: what a can't What did they say? A horribly terribly written,
Speaker 6: boring book. So the office is are things that have
Speaker 6: nothing to do with the case. Well, that person probably
Speaker 6: isn't going to enjoy any of my books.
Speaker 4: Or any books maybe, or any book.
Speaker 6: Matter with a word over two syllables. Well, but what
Speaker 6: I am happy about is that people whose opinions I
Speaker 6: do count as important, such as other true crime writers
Speaker 6: or journalists, like like my work. And I think Gary C.
Speaker 6: King had a great comedy he said, the only review
Speaker 6: that really matters is the one from your editor and
Speaker 6: publisher when they say, will you write more books for us?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. And you know, the thing
Speaker 4: is too, it's just, you know, obviously there's a certain
Speaker 4: type of person that reads true crime, and I think
Speaker 4: the occasionally when they get these bad reviews, because you
Speaker 4: know yourself, for the vast majority of time, people don't
Speaker 4: really communicate with you. For the amount of books you've sold,
Speaker 4: they don't really personally communicate with you. But you keep
Speaker 4: selling your books, you know, and you get a call
Speaker 4: from the editor. So the thing is, that's what I
Speaker 4: find is people I sell books all the time and
Speaker 4: I don't I get a very few comments from people.
Speaker 4: But the thing is, the vast majority of people are
Speaker 4: getting an education and the true crime market is underestimated
Speaker 4: how smart and slavvy these people are. How what we're taking.
Speaker 6: Out that is what we're seeing now for the first
Speaker 6: time is men. And and we've always had a true
Speaker 6: crime prepared to women and white collar educated women reading.
Speaker 6: Now for the first time, men are reading true crime,
Speaker 6: which is fascinating as a whole other segment of the market.
Speaker 6: And and as you know, because you write it, you
Speaker 6: you know about it. It is not an easy thing
Speaker 6: to write. It's emotionally demanding, it can really play on
Speaker 6: your nerves, and you have to do a lot of research,
Speaker 6: and it's not easy stuff to write. But I'm of
Speaker 6: the feeling that if you can lift the victims life
Speaker 6: to a level of sacrifice, and if people can learn
Speaker 6: from these books, lives can be saved. And it generates discussion,
Speaker 6: as we've certainly done. But the case of Fatal Beauty,
Speaker 6: which by the way, folks, is available in both paperback
Speaker 6: and ebook, it stimulates discussion, and discussion is always healthy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's great too. The true crime audience is
Speaker 4: a very appreciative. I think of the information that you'll
Speaker 4: be able to provide. Some books really don't necessitate going
Speaker 4: through too much of a legal drama because the parts
Speaker 4: of the story that they have either access to or
Speaker 4: more interesting are somewhat outside. You know, when this particular
Speaker 4: case you've got a really good examination, you show other cases.
Speaker 4: I found it, you know, I mean an amazing amount
Speaker 4: of I love it, like a historical aspect of it
Speaker 4: where you're talking about it. In Texas in nineteen seventy
Speaker 4: four you could get the death penalty for rape and
Speaker 4: break and enter life without parole. So very interesting how
Speaker 4: the time has changed a little bit.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, it all depends on if people like
Speaker 6: that sort of stuff, if they're like a sense of
Speaker 6: perspective historically, socially and culturally, the like by books. If
Speaker 6: they don't, they won't like this one. They probably won't
Speaker 6: like some of the others. And if they don't like
Speaker 6: this when I say, well that you probably might like
Speaker 6: murdering the family. But you know, the murder in Alaska
Speaker 6: was an entirely different sort of thing or body count,
Speaker 6: which we talked about serial killer. But this is a
Speaker 6: book that does cry out for context. It does cry
Speaker 6: out for what does this mean? What does this tell
Speaker 6: us about ourselves, our history and how we face these things?
Speaker 6: And that's the way I approached it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's been a great yarn Fatal Beauty for
Speaker 4: those people listening. Edgar Reward winning uh Burrough bear and
Speaker 4: make sure you check out True Crime Uncensored on Saturday
Speaker 4: afternoons on Outloud Radio, the premiere true crime interview program,
Speaker 4: the best offer. You've been on it and I've been
Speaker 4: on it, so that's it's been. It was a blast too.
Speaker 4: It was the greatest interview I've done, so it's it
Speaker 4: was a It was a blast.
Speaker 6: He really was a disgusting story. It is. Folks by
Speaker 6: his book, you'll be shocked.
Speaker 4: I guarantee you. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you very
Speaker 4: much Burle for coming back on the program. I wish
Speaker 4: you all the best of luck with Fatal Beauty. But
Speaker 4: I'm sure it's going to be another bestseller because it's
Speaker 4: a great book and a thrill ride of a read.
Speaker 4: So the program.
Speaker 6: For me, I'll quote you on that.
Speaker 4: I'll quote me on that. Oh yeah for sure. Anyway,
Speaker 4: thanks very much, Burrow, have yourself a great evening. My
Speaker 4: pleasure than thank you even listening to program. True Murder
Speaker 4: the most shocking killers in true crime history, and the
Speaker 4: authors have written about them and with my special guest
Speaker 4: Burrelbaar with his book Fatal Beauty. The rodeo stars the
Speaker 4: doctress Killer Fatal Beauty with Burlbaar, have a good evening,
Speaker 4: good night,