Speaker 1: I am Fred Hayes at Holla thirteen Learn Magio Pilot.
Speaker 1: I'm just happy to do a little chatting about those
Speaker 1: exciting days back on the mission. Now approaching some fifty years,
Speaker 1: and you're listening to The Doctor Sky Show.
Speaker 2: And welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the exciting show
Speaker 2: that you tell us you like so much, The Doctors
Speaker 2: Sky Show with great guests from the realms of astronomy, space, aviation,
Speaker 2: and weather, with celebrity guests in the mix. And I'd
Speaker 2: be remiss if I didn't mention our flowing and glowing
Speaker 2: producer of the radio show, Richard Dugan of radio station
Speaker 2: ks ESB. That's AM twelve ninety in Santa Barbara, California.
Speaker 2: And first the shout out from our flagship radio station
Speaker 2: KTAR ninety two point three FM, the news Talk here
Speaker 2: in the desert Southwest, and to all the stations around
Speaker 2: the nation who've been listening for ten years. Thank you
Speaker 2: for your dedication. Today, ladies and gent I'm an exceptional interview.
Speaker 2: In just a few moments, we'll be speaking with one
Speaker 2: of the crew members of Apollo thirteen. Yes, indeed, you
Speaker 2: may have seen the movie starring Tom Hanks and so
Speaker 2: many other celebrities. Here today, ladies and gentlemen, is Fred Hayes.
Speaker 2: He was a lunar module pilot on Apollo thirteen, and
Speaker 2: a brief bio of Fred Hayes is in order. Fred
Speaker 2: Hayes is an American former NASA astronaut, fighter pilot with
Speaker 2: the US Marine Corps and the US Air Force and
Speaker 2: test pilot included. He is one of only twenty four
Speaker 2: people who have flown to the Moon, having flown as
Speaker 2: the lunar module pilot on Apollo thirteen. He was to
Speaker 2: have been the sixth person to land and walk on
Speaker 2: the Moon, but the Apollo thirteen mission was aborted before
Speaker 2: lunar landing. He then went on to fly Space Shuttle
Speaker 2: approach and landing tests in nineteen seventy seven and retired
Speaker 2: from NASA in nineteen seventy nine. Apollo thirteen was the
Speaker 2: seventh man mission in the Apollo space program and the
Speaker 2: third intended to land on the Moon. The craft, the
Speaker 2: Apollo Saturn five, was launched back on Aprilly, a love
Speaker 2: of the nineteen seventy from the Kennedy Space Center in Florida.
Speaker 2: The lunar landing was aborted after an oxygen tank exploded
Speaker 2: two days later, crippling the service module upon which the
Speaker 2: command module had depended. Despite great hardship caused by limited power,
Speaker 2: loss of cabin heat, storage of potable water, and a
Speaker 2: critical need to make makeshift repairs to the carbon diox
Speaker 2: that removal system, the crew returned safely to Earth on
Speaker 2: April the seventeenth, nineteen seventy, six days after launch, and
Speaker 2: speaking to us from his home in Texas, is none
Speaker 2: other than Fred Hayes, Ladies and gentlemen, one of only
Speaker 2: twenty four people who've gone to the Moon, one of
Speaker 2: the humans who's actually gone farthest from the Earth. Fred Hayes.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, Yes, sir.
Speaker 1: Glad to join you here today from hot, sunny Houston.
Speaker 2: Yes there, and I'm here in hot and equally sunny Phoenix, Arizona,
Speaker 2: where the temperatures yesterday Fred got up to at least
Speaker 2: one hundred and sixteen degrees. But the most important part
Speaker 2: of that is that'll all be over, hopefully soon.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I met you briefly and shook your hand down at Spacefest,
Speaker 2: and it was a high honor to stand there and
Speaker 2: just be with you, and I wanted you to start
Speaker 2: off from the beginning, of course, because it's not an
Speaker 2: easy path to becoming an astronaut. Describe your early experience
Speaker 2: and how you got into the Astronaut Corps and then
Speaker 2: of course moved all the way up the pecking order,
Speaker 2: as we would say, to be on board Apollo thirteen.
Speaker 1: Well, I guess the start for me was when I
Speaker 1: got in aviation and joined the military during the Korean
Speaker 1: War and became a naval Aavy year, served in two
Speaker 1: Marine viider squadrons along the way. I did not see
Speaker 1: combat in the career. It ended about four months finished
Speaker 1: flight training, but anyway, I then subsequently got interested in
Speaker 1: thinking about being a test pilot, who went back to
Speaker 1: school to get an engineering degree and joined NASA actually
Speaker 1: just barely after it became NASA in nineteen fifty nine
Speaker 1: at the Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, now named Glenn
Speaker 1: after John Glenn, and I actually was two about two
Speaker 1: and a half years behind Neil Armstrong. Neil also was
Speaker 1: a NASA pilot, a research pilot, started at Lewis where
Speaker 1: I did, but had already moved on to Edwards Air
Speaker 1: Force Base, and he got a chance to fly the
Speaker 1: X fifteen rocket ship. She was ahead of me there
Speaker 1: and then went into the Asnaut program, and I just
Speaker 1: followed his trail because after a three years at Lewis,
Speaker 1: I moved to Edwards right after Neil again left a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago earlier to go in the Asnaut program,
Speaker 1: and so I was on that trail. And actually when
Speaker 1: I talked to Neil when he was already in the
Speaker 1: SNOUT program, I really had to think hard about signing
Speaker 1: up because our appliant, because what he told me was
Speaker 1: being an a not involved being in a lot a
Speaker 1: lot of meetings and a lot of simulation time and
Speaker 1: not much really good flying as we had done with
Speaker 1: NASA and various test programs. Sure, so I had to
Speaker 1: think hard about giving up that because I actually still
Speaker 1: the best fun time of my life flying was my
Speaker 1: time in Edwards Air Force Base at the Flight Research Center,
Speaker 1: which incidentally today is named after Neil. It's Armstrong Flight
Speaker 1: Research Center.
Speaker 2: It's a great place, good there, and it's an amazing
Speaker 2: story because we talked to so many pilots like yourself, sir,
Speaker 2: and obviously this you want to be in the cockpit,
Speaker 2: not flying at desk, and I think that kind of
Speaker 2: summarizes the.
Speaker 1: Point right right. Yeah. But you know I realized, sitting
Speaker 1: there thinking a little more, that I was intrigued with
Speaker 1: the lunar mission, and I said, well, if I stay
Speaker 1: at Edwards, that's not going to get me to the moon.
Speaker 1: So that's when I applied.
Speaker 2: Absolutely wonderful Fred Hayes, Ladies and gentlemen, astronaut on a
Speaker 2: board Apollo thirteen and most famous as many of the
Speaker 2: Apollo missions, of course, all equally important for this particular story.
Speaker 2: If you ask the average person on the street, they
Speaker 2: probably have a little more recollection of Apollo thirteen. Fred
Speaker 2: Hayes joins us from his home in southern Texas here
Speaker 2: on the Doctor Sky Show, of course, as one of
Speaker 2: nineteen new astronauts selected Vanessa's Astronaut Group five back in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six. But then talk about the mixes they
Speaker 2: have it where they made up the cruise and obviously
Speaker 2: some changes were made. Then there you go, You guys
Speaker 2: are ready to launch a most interesting rocket. I mean,
Speaker 2: we've talked about this with so many of the space scientists,
Speaker 2: but I want to hear it from yourself, Fred. When
Speaker 2: they put you inside there, great people like untervend. I
Speaker 2: guess he was one of the pad leaders that put
Speaker 2: so many of the astronauts back into the space capsules.
Speaker 2: When you're standing on that gang plank and moving into
Speaker 2: the capsule described from there and the launch sequence, what's
Speaker 2: it like? What does it feel like to have that big,
Speaker 2: those big five f one engines pushing you towards space?
Speaker 2: I got to hear that.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's like anything he approached some in sports,
Speaker 1: a big game. We'd worked long and hard to get there.
Speaker 1: There was a little taken away as we headed out
Speaker 1: because we had changed to crewman. Jack Schwiger replaced the
Speaker 1: Ken manningly because we'd all been exposed to measles and
Speaker 1: Ken was felt to be very susceptible to come down
Speaker 1: with measles, which incidentally, I think Ken's one year younger
Speaker 1: than me, so he's eighty three, and I don't think
Speaker 1: he's ever had measles. But anyway, that replacement was made
Speaker 1: with Jack, so it was kind of emotionally a little
Speaker 1: hard changing out a crewman that late in the game,
Speaker 1: although the movie gave a wrong inflection that there was
Speaker 1: some concern about Jack's technical capability to fill in and
Speaker 1: that was not the case. We trained equally as prime
Speaker 1: and backup, and I backed up eight and eleven, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure I could have done the job if I
Speaker 1: had been replaced the counterpart. I was backing up without
Speaker 1: his problem. But at any rate, you're excited because this
Speaker 1: is now. You've done all this work and training and
Speaker 1: you're going to finally get to go. As far as
Speaker 1: what you feel in the in the rocket's certain steps
Speaker 1: during the launch preparation sequence, and that they gimble engines
Speaker 1: and that kind of puts a motion rumble up the stack,
Speaker 1: but you can't hear anything as far as you know.
Speaker 1: The engines obviously are heard from the roar and pressure
Speaker 1: even from the sound waves. The visitors five miles away
Speaker 1: viewers they feel that, but we inside you don't hear
Speaker 1: any of that sound because it's well below you and
Speaker 1: you're moving up the right itself uppeal. The most unusual
Speaker 1: couple of unusual aspects of it from playing all my
Speaker 1: airplane experience with fighter airplanes and otherwise, is the sort
Speaker 1: of herky jerkiness of the riot, the large four out
Speaker 1: of engines when they gimbaled, even I guess moving very small.
Speaker 1: That gives a lot of motion, and it's exaggerated because
Speaker 1: we're sitting in a capsule way up on the tippy top,
Speaker 1: and so you get a lot of sickly sideways motion
Speaker 1: that you normally would never feel in an airplane. And
Speaker 1: the G levels though are modest compared to a fighter airplanes. Plus,
Speaker 1: we were laying on our backs in a couch, which
Speaker 1: is a better position to take g's rather than the
Speaker 1: fighter airplane. We're just sitting up right in an ejection seat.
Speaker 1: And even the old fighters I flew, we'd pull six
Speaker 1: seven g's and combat maneuvering. And of course the maximum
Speaker 1: G on Apollo launch was four and a half, so
Speaker 1: that part wasn't that big a deal. The other most
Speaker 1: pronounced thing was when the first stage shut down, which
Speaker 1: it does obviously very abruptly, and you tend to get
Speaker 1: thrown in an instrument panel because you go instantly from
Speaker 1: four and a heftgis to no g's. Wow, and during
Speaker 1: that transition. That's that's kind of another abrupt sequence that
Speaker 1: takes place in the launch. That's about it. Other than that,
Speaker 1: it's moved out even beyond that with the big wood
Speaker 1: engines as we went on uphill.
Speaker 2: That's incredible. So you feel like a little kick in
Speaker 2: the pants the sisode of speak. It's like when that
Speaker 2: first stage just shuts down, you feel a different You
Speaker 2: feel a pretty big jolt done. Is that what you're
Speaker 2: trying to say, right, big jolt?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Most people think of it when you lift off the
Speaker 1: pad as a jolt in the pants, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It's it moves away. It just its pictures you've seen
Speaker 1: almost look like slow motion is so heavy. It's over
Speaker 1: six million pounds that even those big engines, it moves
Speaker 1: away quite slowly. Fact I've talked to people have written
Speaker 1: the Russian Siya, which is also a liquid system, and
Speaker 1: they say, almost what without seeing the clock starting, they
Speaker 1: don't even know they left it off.
Speaker 2: That's incredible. Ladies and gentlemen, you're joined here in the
Speaker 2: Dunchter Sky Show by one of the famous astronauts here
Speaker 2: of all time, not because of the mission, but his dedication.
Speaker 2: Like all the astronauts. First, Professor, I want to thank
Speaker 2: you for your service to the United States military, as
Speaker 2: of course all the great folks we have on this show.
Speaker 2: That's pardon Parcel. I think the most important thing to
Speaker 2: say to any of the veterans, So thank you for
Speaker 2: your service the United States of America. But in that
Speaker 2: very rare group of people, twenty four people, as we've described, sir,
Speaker 2: you know that better than anyone have gone to the moon.
Speaker 2: My interest in this is to talk with you about
Speaker 2: something interesting. When I was a young boy, my parents
Speaker 2: took me down to see an eclipse of the sun,
Speaker 2: which was March the seventh, nineteen seventy and right there
Speaker 2: as we got to the Kennedy Space Center, right there
Speaker 2: in the Canaveral area, we saw and I saw this.
Speaker 2: I have a little picture still and I keep it
Speaker 2: on my desk in the little codochrome of the all
Speaker 2: of thirteen stack just sitting there, and I was amazed
Speaker 2: as a young boy. But describe it, sir, because we
Speaker 2: never could stay for the launch, which would have been
Speaker 2: one a month later. I'm amazed because three hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty five feet tall, if I'm correct, that's bigger than
Speaker 2: some buildings. And it's just a amazing feat how they
Speaker 2: created the Setron five moon rocket.
Speaker 1: Now I described so people can maybe better understand that
Speaker 1: size is I tell them, if you lay it horizontally,
Speaker 1: which is now is displayed that way, at Johnson Space
Speaker 1: Center at Marshall and the Space and Rocket Center there
Speaker 1: in Huntsville, Alabama, and at Kennedy it would cover the
Speaker 1: entire football field plus both end zones and then have
Speaker 1: about three foot hanging out totally. So that's the size
Speaker 1: of that that rocket, and.
Speaker 2: So many people, as you know better, are trying to
Speaker 2: create the bigger throat. I mean Elon Musk and the
Speaker 2: Falcon Heavies and some other many people around the world
Speaker 2: are trying to build, including NASA. But that's s're an
Speaker 2: amazing part of history, and we salute the people who
Speaker 2: built that rocket and the people like yourself on this
Speaker 2: radio show, let's talk about the Moon mission itself. I'm
Speaker 2: fascinated by this because obviously many people out there are
Speaker 2: interested to hear your story, sir. As you get into
Speaker 2: the lunar transition injection, you're moving, of course, toward the Moon.
Speaker 2: Here's what happens, and I don't know, Fred, I can
Speaker 2: say it in my simple way, around two hundred and
Speaker 2: five thousand miles from Earth, the event that you're going
Speaker 2: to describe just happened. And just so you know, Fred,
Speaker 2: on my little Honda Element it just turned two hundred
Speaker 2: and five thousand miles, and it took me ten years
Speaker 2: to do it. But describe the journey to the moon,
Speaker 2: because that's the best way in earthlin like me and
Speaker 2: describe it. It took me a hell of a lot
Speaker 2: of years, Fred over a decade to get to two
Speaker 2: hundred and five thousand miles, but describe it in a
Speaker 2: serious way. You're moving on to lunar injection, the rockets
Speaker 2: moving toward the moon, and what's that like. And then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden around two hundred and five thousand
Speaker 2: miles take up and pick up the story from there
Speaker 2: because this is the historic part.
Speaker 1: Well, you trip out dound, it's pretty relaxed. You do
Speaker 1: some platform alignments. We had some photos to take at
Speaker 1: different times at different distances of the Earth as we
Speaker 1: moved away. It was kind of maybe what we call
Speaker 1: it one of the design objectives, and you do housekeeping
Speaker 1: kind of things, and one thing you do is as
Speaker 1: a ratis sheets, you actually are still taking out some
Speaker 1: of the checklists and the handwriting and changes that were made.
Speaker 1: It was too late to do a reprint of the book,
Speaker 1: so you're you're modifying them that way with a Ratis sheet,
Speaker 1: and that tickle. The day that this happened, a second
Speaker 1: day out them Level and I have been scheduled and
Speaker 1: did accomplish a TV show near the end of the
Speaker 1: work day. We did it sort of as a show
Speaker 1: and tell, pulling out elements and objects in the lunar
Speaker 1: module that we knew from looking at previous missions. TV
Speaker 1: shows never had been talked about, and we figured that
Speaker 1: might be interesting for the general public. And after the
Speaker 1: plan was after we finished that show, we were fixing
Speaker 1: to go to bed, and that was the end of
Speaker 1: the work day. And the next morning the plan was
Speaker 1: to wake up and go and prepare them go into
Speaker 1: lunar orbit and subsequently power getting. Jim and I would
Speaker 1: get in the limb and powered up and prepare for
Speaker 1: the landing. The explosion happened just after we completed that
Speaker 1: TV show Wow. Jack was alone in the command module
Speaker 1: at the time. Jim and I were in the limb
Speaker 1: and it was It was obviously a loud bang reverberating
Speaker 1: through the metal structure. Both vehicles are metal. There was
Speaker 1: some vehicle motion, though not very much, but rusters, a
Speaker 1: little one hundred pounds attitude thrusters were firing, which you
Speaker 1: know where was unusual, and Jim had already started then
Speaker 1: to drift up through the tunnel to go back to
Speaker 1: the command module. By that time, Jack had made the call,
Speaker 1: the first call of Houston, we've had a problem. Houston
Speaker 1: had not answered, and so Jim repeated the call, and
Speaker 1: then subsequently I started up to get to my position,
Speaker 1: which was in the right couch in front of me.
Speaker 1: I had the electrical system stuff, the fire, environmental and communications,
Speaker 1: and within a cent a minute scan it was obvious
Speaker 1: from the readings in several meters that we had lost
Speaker 1: auction tank two.
Speaker 4: Okay here, we've had a problem here.
Speaker 3: This is Houston, Sagan, please Houston.
Speaker 4: We've had a probably maybe both.
Speaker 5: On a volts remain involt.
Speaker 4: It's okay, stand by thirteen.
Speaker 2: We're looking at it.
Speaker 5: Okay right now, youth, and the voltage is looking good.
Speaker 5: And we had a pretty large bank associated with the
Speaker 5: caution and warning there.
Speaker 4: And the very called me B was the one that's
Speaker 4: had a camp spike on it once before. And the
Speaker 4: interview here we're starting to go ahead and button up
Speaker 4: the tunnel again. Yeah, that's that, Joel's what's the rocks
Speaker 4: the center on C now and oh two quantity two.
Speaker 4: It's was OSCO eight down around twenty to sixty percent.
Speaker 4: Now it's both Skil Hygen and Houston. We had to
Speaker 4: restart on our computer. We would think right at h
Speaker 4: at the restartger.
Speaker 5: Restart interfers like restarting.
Speaker 3: And had a looking at the rec cervice module art Yes,
Speaker 3: Helium wat we have ber barber pool at Seer barber pool,
Speaker 3: Helium two beer barber pool at secondary of the pelops.
Speaker 3: I have a at b barberpool f BAC temperatures. Okay
Speaker 3: eighty two. Is you on zip up and I'm trying
Speaker 3: to reconfigure on it?
Speaker 4: Jack?
Speaker 5: Yeah, we get a Smatt's say under vote now too,
Speaker 5: shot Leadi intervot treat about twenty five and a half.
Speaker 4: Maybe ready zip right now?
Speaker 5: Jim.
Speaker 2: That's amazing Fred, what we've just heard. And I just
Speaker 2: want you to continue on your story because from my perspective,
Speaker 2: of course, the limited knowledge I've had of this throughout history,
Speaker 2: and then of course watching Tom Hanks rendition of Apollo thirteen,
Speaker 2: I see this amazing explosion take place on the command module,
Speaker 2: and I mean that's just so unnerving because you and
Speaker 2: of course the other crew mate were prepared to continue
Speaker 2: on the two to the surface of the moon. You
Speaker 2: and Jim level to the from moral region on the moon,
Speaker 2: and well, your mind goes from not just thinking about
Speaker 2: the lunar landing now it transitions into what it's kind
Speaker 2: of a survival mode thing. But how bad was this
Speaker 2: if you can describe it, because I don't want to
Speaker 2: be dramatic here, I want to hear it from yourself.
Speaker 2: I mean, how close to this particular point was this
Speaker 2: like fatal? Maybe to you guys, if you didn't have
Speaker 2: the lunar module attached, that was the lifeboat right.
Speaker 1: Well, the way the situation as described was right after
Speaker 1: the explosion was we lost Tank two. We thought we
Speaker 1: still had Tank one, the other auction tank, which really
Speaker 1: meant we were not in a life threatening situation. Good
Speaker 1: for that tank obviously, then showed and developed had developed
Speaker 1: somehow a very slow leak who was not a parent immediately.
Speaker 1: In fact, the mission control with all the array of
Speaker 1: warning lights we had on quite a few, about seven
Speaker 1: of them, and computer restart blue light and a master
Speaker 1: all arm for eighteen minutes, Houston thought it was an
Speaker 1: instrumentation problem and not a real problem. But as the
Speaker 1: auction tank to number one showed that it had a leak.
Speaker 1: That's when it became to become a real problem, very
Speaker 1: serious problem. He did one through extensive period of troubleshooting
Speaker 1: with the Michigan Control diagnosed in different ways we might
Speaker 1: be able to isolate the leak to that tank one.
Speaker 1: And that went on for an hour. And so it
Speaker 1: was about that time that GM asked me to when
Speaker 1: it was pretty obviously they were running out of ideas
Speaker 1: to start powering up the Linnar module, which is as happenstance,
Speaker 1: we still had a fully intact, the ready vehicle of
Speaker 1: land on the Moon that now could serve to provide
Speaker 1: his life support and communications and really by time to
Speaker 1: work this major issue to try to get his home.
Speaker 1: So that that's what Jim and I got very active
Speaker 1: and left Jack alone in the command module to go.
Speaker 1: He continued working with Michigan Control and eventually shut that
Speaker 1: vehicle completely down.
Speaker 2: Well, Fred, you know, I have a problem personally when
Speaker 2: I go into tight spaces. I think they call it claustrophobia,
Speaker 2: but I don't know if that's exactly what I have,
Speaker 2: And a lot of people that like this but describe
Speaker 2: the environment of both the command module, the Apollo capsule itself,
Speaker 2: your living environment, and that of the lunar module. It's
Speaker 2: it's fairly spacious according to like when we had Jim
Speaker 2: hobble on here. But you're another person who experienced it.
Speaker 2: I mean you're in some trying to kind of tight quoters.
Speaker 2: Is that a fair dis assessment?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, tight, but yes, but it's very comfortable what
Speaker 1: you've spent lots of hours. And in terms of background,
Speaker 1: most of us have been fighter pilots. Fighter airplanes don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of room exactly, and so that to me,
Speaker 1: it was not anywhere near a coastrophobic situation that you described.
Speaker 1: But again testing on the ground, both at the factory
Speaker 1: before they were delivered to Kennedy and living in them
Speaker 1: in quite a few many hours, and the tests and
Speaker 1: at Kennedy and including the chamber test with the vehicles,
Speaker 1: they were like a second home. So there was no
Speaker 1: issue from that standpoint. With the living the environment, it
Speaker 1: was tight obviously, and it was kind of an all
Speaker 1: in one room situation. It was your working area, it
Speaker 1: was your place, you with the optics, you had, you
Speaker 1: shot stores, it was your galley with the cupboards with
Speaker 1: the cabinets you could open for food and a water
Speaker 1: gun and hot and cold water guns to mix up
Speaker 1: your food, and also your bathroom all in one little room.
Speaker 2: Totally the knowledgy right, Totally amazing Fred, how they designed this.
Speaker 2: But thank goodness for Lunar Module Aquarius, as you and
Speaker 2: the rest of the crew are handling the emergency on
Speaker 2: board Command module hodesty. But this is I've never heard
Speaker 2: this from anyone, and I want to hear it from you.
Speaker 2: I spent a little time with Jim Level on this,
Speaker 2: but we never had enough time to ask the procedural thing.
Speaker 2: So from that incident, what and how quickly was the
Speaker 2: decision made obviously to do what you could to get back?
Speaker 2: I mean, was there the possibility that you could have
Speaker 2: just simply turned the whole spacecraft around toward and headed
Speaker 2: to Earth or it's not that simple because you need
Speaker 2: the moon to want swing around us. Tell us what
Speaker 2: did happen and how you swung around the moon.
Speaker 1: Well, we obviously were not involved with that particular decision
Speaker 1: you mentioned where you could do what was called a
Speaker 1: directors turn, which would involve practically using all the fuel
Speaker 1: out of the service module uh and having maybe jettison
Speaker 1: even but I think the ground, the people on the
Speaker 1: ground who had a set of call it technical arguments
Speaker 1: about it, and decided they didn't really know the status
Speaker 1: of the service module, its health, and decided that the
Speaker 1: safest way was to just can continue the path and
Speaker 1: modify the path to go around the moon to buy time.
Speaker 1: And that's what happened during this mission. It was a
Speaker 1: sort of a sequence of plateaus of remaining still a
Speaker 1: little ahead of the game until you figured out the
Speaker 1: next thing. And so the first thing that they agreed on,
Speaker 1: and I call it Plan B now the new flight plan,
Speaker 1: was to get us on that path back back around
Speaker 1: the moon head home and that was the first maneuver
Speaker 1: we did using the landing engine on the lamb, the
Speaker 1: one we would have landed with to affect that trajectory change.
Speaker 2: That's incredible, I mean more and more I hear this,
Speaker 2: ladies and gentlemen. The of course lunar module Aquarius is
Speaker 2: so dependent, I mean, so important to get these three
Speaker 2: astronauts back. And again we're speaking with Fred Hayes, one
Speaker 2: of the members on board Apollo thirteen. He was the
Speaker 2: lunar module pilot on the historic mission. He and Jim
Speaker 2: Lovell John Sweigert of course made up the rest of
Speaker 2: the crew. So from this particular factoid, and this is
Speaker 2: fascinating because I study astronomy mostly, Sir, your flight passed
Speaker 2: the far side of the Moon at at the highest
Speaker 2: elevation I guess, so, making what you and your crew
Speaker 2: the farthest humans ever adventured so far away from Earth
Speaker 2: right now in history. So that's an amazing feed right there.
Speaker 2: Why did you have to go so far from the
Speaker 2: Moon to get extra speed? Is that the simple answer?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that record which I have traded there
Speaker 1: for landing on the Moon, but at hidy rate. The
Speaker 1: happenstance was we went around the Moon at about one
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty thirty one miles something like that. Yes,
Speaker 1: And the luar trajectory around the Moon is not circular,
Speaker 1: it's somewhat elliptical. And the timing was we went around
Speaker 1: the Moon as it was kind of at one of
Speaker 1: its furthest points away from the Earth in that path
Speaker 1: it takes. So that couple with our attitudes, gave.
Speaker 4: Us that.
Speaker 1: Point of being the furthest away from Earth at that
Speaker 1: particular time.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, that's incredible, fredim until people go back to
Speaker 2: the Moon. That's a great historic record. But more important
Speaker 2: the safety of the crew, the great ground controllers and people.
Speaker 2: As for the handling this mission, obviously real genius is
Speaker 2: to make sure that the spacecraft gets you and your
Speaker 2: other two crew members back. So once you make that
Speaker 2: burn around the Moon, describe the ingrest toward the Earth,
Speaker 2: because I've never heard any astronaut explain this. As you're
Speaker 2: now coming back from the far side of the Moon,
Speaker 2: you have the lunar module with you in front, you
Speaker 2: have of course the command module damaged to Apollo capsule.
Speaker 2: What's the next procedure and how then do you actually
Speaker 2: pinpoint a location on the Earth In this rather unusual setting,
Speaker 2: We've got a lunar module as a lifeboat. It seems
Speaker 2: so complicated. It's like skipping a rock on the water.
Speaker 2: You don't want it to go off and skip off
Speaker 2: onto space. So tell us this is fascinating to hear the.
Speaker 1: Rest well again again, as I said, it was a
Speaker 1: series of things that were worked in this new Plan
Speaker 1: B that kept is ahead of the game. The first
Speaker 1: one was after we passed the Moon by two hours,
Speaker 1: the longest maneuver we did using the Lamb decent engine
Speaker 1: cut ten hours off the return and that was critical
Speaker 1: from the standpoint of saving time in making this a
Speaker 1: better shape on consolables that is, water in power, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And so then further we had to do two minor
Speaker 1: corrections to the trajectory to as you say, fit into
Speaker 1: the right angle as we approached the Earth for the entry.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's just a series of three in
Speaker 1: that case, three steps that the biggest maneuver after we
Speaker 1: left the Moon a couple hours, and then two more
Speaker 1: mid courses they're called on the way back to sort
Speaker 1: of fine tune the path for entry.
Speaker 2: Right, this is interesting. I have a model of this
Speaker 2: particular spacecraft that's going to stay there forever. It's a
Speaker 2: beautiful model. You'd love it too. It's got the lunar
Speaker 2: module attached to the command and service module with the
Speaker 2: Apollo capsule of course in between. So describe to the
Speaker 2: viewers out there some radios of the theater of the
Speaker 2: mind as you're heading toward the Earth. When did you
Speaker 2: have to get rid of the lunar module to deploy?
Speaker 2: You get rid of that to be ejected it and
Speaker 2: then when did the command module actually separate from the
Speaker 2: apollo Comps will describe that series because it's still to
Speaker 2: me amazing how all this worked with the crisis that
Speaker 2: happened on the command module.
Speaker 1: Well, the sequence obviously we're in a situation, approached an
Speaker 1: entry that was different than anything before, as you say,
Speaker 1: with the limbs still attached and a dead service module
Speaker 1: that could not we cannot use with its thrusters to
Speaker 1: do proper separation. So the first thing that was separated
Speaker 1: was the service module. It was dead and wasn't much
Speaker 1: use otherwise, and that was used with control from the
Speaker 1: limb in some thrust to the sure separation offset to
Speaker 1: our path, and it allowed us also Jim could then
Speaker 1: rotate the lunar module with attitude thrusters, and we shot
Speaker 1: a lot of pictures of the damaged stereo I saw
Speaker 1: too long after that, we again, with a sort of
Speaker 1: an offset angle from the path, we actually uh uh
Speaker 1: blew off effect blew off the limb. So that that
Speaker 1: was the last thing we got rid of. Because again
Speaker 1: the way you normally separate the limb is you under
Speaker 1: the latches and you use the thrusters on the service
Speaker 1: module to provide translation for us to get clearance. Well,
Speaker 1: the service module was already gone and it was dead anyway,
Speaker 1: so the tunnel had to be pressurized between the two vehicles.
Speaker 1: Then pyrotechnically, the limb was in escence blown away by
Speaker 1: the excess pressure in the tunnel area. So that was
Speaker 1: the hatches. Both hatches closed. So that's the way we
Speaker 1: assured separation of the limb to be a somewhat away
Speaker 1: for us off our normal entry path.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. Just a couple of quick questions, Fred, our
Speaker 2: time was just about expired here, but never in terms
Speaker 2: of ever wanting to talk to you again about this.
Speaker 2: You're welcome here anytime, But just a couple of quick questions. Obviously,
Speaker 2: people of course around the world praying, and I say
Speaker 2: that lightly of course, for the actual return of both
Speaker 2: all three of you, of course, and godspeed to everyone
Speaker 2: who made this happen. But it obviously happened successfully. It's amazing.
Speaker 2: So talk to us here briefly. What's the importance and
Speaker 2: significance in your mind? Fred Hayes of the entire Apollo program.
Speaker 2: I love it, but I want to hear from somebody
Speaker 2: who really did the stuff, So talk about that.
Speaker 1: Well, the Power program is to me just a continuation
Speaker 1: of what NASA ought to be doing, which is exploration,
Speaker 1: and of course it was built up to that point
Speaker 1: through the earlier programs of Mercury, which kind of improved
Speaker 1: and humans with Survive in space to a Gemini, which
Speaker 1: got head of the game on some of the critical
Speaker 1: elements that would be needed to do the lunar miss
Speaker 1: And so it's just call it baby steps as we're
Speaker 1: trying to move out away from our Earth and eventually
Speaker 1: it maybe it'd take a very long time to think
Speaker 1: of Heaven humans located on places other than Earth, because
Speaker 1: we're kind of a single point failure with Earth. It's
Speaker 1: our spaceship, and we don't have a lunar module for
Speaker 1: the Earth. And as we know, things have happened on
Speaker 1: Earth that have have been major extinctions in the past,
Speaker 1: several in fact, if you would google that, and there's
Speaker 1: no saying that that won't happen again, so I think,
Speaker 1: but just in general, the mission of nassas to continue
Speaker 1: exploration and moving outward.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. The Apollo thirteen movie, of course, directed by Ron Howard,
Speaker 2: produced by Brian Grazer. You know, sir, the person your
Speaker 2: persona is played by actor who's past built accent your
Speaker 2: quick analysis of that movie. I mean, I'm sure Tom
Speaker 2: Hanks and you have got together many times, but what's
Speaker 2: your feeling about the movie overall?
Speaker 1: Well, I'd say the first first time I watched it,
Speaker 1: I was too hung up with I'll call it technical errors,
Speaker 1: which is true of any call it trying to be
Speaker 1: real life prog. Hollywood is done about space. But excluding that,
Speaker 1: as I settled back in, I've seen it several more times,
Speaker 1: I think it held through and did an excellent job
Speaker 1: on call it the bottom line story, which is people
Speaker 1: in trouble, which we were challenges that had to be faced.
Speaker 1: Really through the expertise and training of a team both
Speaker 1: on the ground and ourselves executing what they figured out
Speaker 1: to do, that unabled it to have a good Hollywood
Speaker 1: ending and we got home.
Speaker 2: You know, Fred, It's an amazing story. And I want
Speaker 2: to thank you so much for joining me when we
Speaker 2: go to the bottom of the hour here. Please stay
Speaker 2: on the line as we go to the break here.
Speaker 2: But again I want to thank you, and of course
Speaker 2: a dedication, ladies and gentlemen, to the members of Apollo thirteen.
Speaker 2: Jim of course, Jim Lovell has been a guest here
Speaker 2: on this radio show today astronaut Fred Hayes, Lunar module
Speaker 2: pilot on Apollo thirteen and in loving memory of Jack
Speaker 2: Swygert Junior, the other crew member. All three made this
Speaker 2: dynamic group of men. Only twenty four humans have gone
Speaker 2: to the Moon, as far as Sale to the Moon,
Speaker 2: Loan to the Moon, and as you know better, sir,
Speaker 2: only twelve of walk on the surface. We hope to
Speaker 2: continue this conversation in the future with you. But Fred
Speaker 2: Hayes is the award winning person here. He's gotten so
Speaker 2: many medals, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, to NASA Distinguished
Speaker 2: Service Medal, then that's Exceptional Service Medal, National Defense Service
Speaker 2: Medal with one Star, and so many others. Sir, I
Speaker 2: thank you for your military service and it's an honor
Speaker 2: to have you here on the Doctor Skyshaw. I'm hoping
Speaker 2: in the future that we might carry on a future
Speaker 2: discussion in more detail the great epic journey of us
Speaker 2: going to the Moon. President Kennedy's desire to get us
Speaker 2: to the Moon before, of course that decade was out
Speaker 2: successfully doing it. Fred Hayes, thank you for your service
Speaker 2: to America and long live the Apollo program and the
Speaker 2: memory of all the astronauts. Thank you, Fred Hayses. Stay
Speaker 2: on the line with us as we go to the
Speaker 2: bottom of the hour break that, of course, Astronaut Fred Hayes.
Speaker 2: Apollo thirteen Fame, Ladies and gentlemen, an amazing story about
Speaker 2: how engineers, scientists, astronauts, pilots all work together to bring
Speaker 2: three astronauts back from what might not have been a
Speaker 2: very successful outcome without the collective minds of great science
Speaker 2: and thinking outside of the box. I'm doctor Sky always
Speaker 2: great guests from the realms of astronomy, space, aviation, and weather,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure Astronaut Fred Hayes would agree. Doctor Sky
Speaker 2: reminds everyone to always remember to keep your eyes to
Speaker 2: the skies. Thank you, Fred Hayes.