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<v Speaker 1>Our job is simply to build on top of those

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<v Speaker 1>platforms to build the future of wealth management and banking.

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<v Speaker 1>We have a brisk business in lending against the coin

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<v Speaker 1>and as a produciary, we want to simply have as

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<v Speaker 1>many viable options that are liquid, easy to get in

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<v Speaker 1>and out of, and technologically safe.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a big believer in the free market. However, there's

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<v Speaker 2>been a lot of controversy with insider trading in much more.

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<v Speaker 2>What are your thoughts on prediction markets in the future.

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<v Speaker 1>Prediction markets are a quagmuire because of that exact issue.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode is brought to you by Fordax. Guys, Let's

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<v Speaker 2>be honest, the crypto market has been moving sideways for

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<v Speaker 2>a while now. A lot of people are just sitting

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<v Speaker 2>on their coins waiting for the next big move. But

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<v Speaker 2>while you're waiting, your crypto is just sitting in your

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<v Speaker 2>wallet doing absolutely nothing. That's why I want to mention

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<v Speaker 2>one of my longtime partners, Fordax. Instead of just letting

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<v Speaker 2>your assets id, you can put supported cryptocurrencies into fortestx

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<v Speaker 2>liquidity pools and earn daily rewards while still keeping the

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<v Speaker 2>flexibility to withdraw whenever you want. One of the reasons

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<v Speaker 2>I've continued working with them is because they keep delivering.

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<v Speaker 2>The team is public, they've successfully completed Cyberscope team verification,

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<v Speaker 2>kyc past independent security audits, and the platform has been

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<v Speaker 2>building consistently for years. They've focused on long term growth,

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<v Speaker 2>transparency and security rather than hype. In a market like this,

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<v Speaker 2>it makes far more sense to have your crypto working

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<v Speaker 2>for you instead of letting it sit idle in your wallet.

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<v Speaker 2>I've worked with fortestx for a long time and if

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<v Speaker 2>you're planning to hold your crypto anyway, I genuinely think

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<v Speaker 2>it's one of the smartest ways to put those assets

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<v Speaker 2>to work. And folks, I know security is very important

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<v Speaker 2>to all of us as we hold our crypto assets

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<v Speaker 2>and they are fully audited by certain and they are

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<v Speaker 2>sec registered and much more so. You've got to check

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<v Speaker 2>out FORDX. Go to FORDESX, dot FM, slash x slash

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<v Speaker 2>Thinking Crypto link will be in the description. Hey, folks,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony

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<v Speaker 2>Edward and joining me is Bill Barrheight, who is the

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<v Speaker 2>founder and CEO of Abra, which is a global digital asset,

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<v Speaker 2>wealth and treasury management platform providing clients with a suite

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<v Speaker 2>of sophisticated digital asset products and services. Bill, Great to

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<v Speaker 2>see you, Great to have you back.

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<v Speaker 1>Always great to see you, Tony. Love your work.

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<v Speaker 2>Bill certainly want to get your perspective and thoughts on

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<v Speaker 2>the markets and everything that's happening around Claritiac and much more.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's good time that we're going to be talking.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's also, you know, the potential. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if you can give us a timeline of when abramight

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<v Speaker 2>go public, but I get ahead of myself. Bill, Where

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<v Speaker 2>do you think we are in the crypto bear market?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think we're near a bottom?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I do.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we're chopping around what I think is a

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<v Speaker 1>price bottom, and you know, it could go on until

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<v Speaker 1>you know, end of Q three, early Q four, but

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<v Speaker 1>I think we've been ranged by Look, I probably see

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<v Speaker 1>this a little bit differently than people who look at,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, stock market returns as kind of the basis

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<v Speaker 1>for what it means to invest and speculate. I think

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<v Speaker 1>we're dealing with exponential growth and right now, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>AI basically clearly has the narrative around exponential growth. It

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<v Speaker 1>really is a very unique time and opportunity. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think crypto is still in exponential growth mode.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>We haven't even gotten into token iss real world equities,

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<v Speaker 1>which is worth trillions of dollars on top of what

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<v Speaker 1>we have. The stable cooin narrative has died down a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit post Circle IPO, but the usage is ballooning.

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<v Speaker 1>It's actually it's accelerated since the narrative of last summer,

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<v Speaker 1>and so you know, the space is at hypergrowth, but

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<v Speaker 1>the narrative shifted away from l towards institutional. But if

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<v Speaker 1>what you're focused on is price, you need retail and

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<v Speaker 1>right now retail money is looking at AI and certain

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<v Speaker 1>tech stocks like crypto during COVID, and that's unsustainable in

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<v Speaker 1>my opinion. There's a real profitability problem with AI. In

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<v Speaker 1>my opinion, I'm super bullish on AI, right. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I spend so much of my day on AI strategy

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<v Speaker 1>it's crazy. But I think the stock thing is going

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<v Speaker 1>to play itself out in the next six months, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think you're going to see a big rotation into

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<v Speaker 1>I think l ones that lend themselves towards AI crypto

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<v Speaker 1>integration are going to get a big bump in the

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<v Speaker 1>next eighteen months. You know that's just my personal opinion, right,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, not necessary. I'm not telling anybody what to

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<v Speaker 1>buy and only think that's going to happen. What do

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<v Speaker 1>I know? But long winded way of saying, I do

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<v Speaker 1>think we're chopping around a short term price bottom. But

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<v Speaker 1>it's a very big range, right because you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it does feel like a like a big drawdown. But

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, fifty percent means on bitcoin means volatility

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<v Speaker 1>has compressed signific since the last cycle. It's hard to

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<v Speaker 1>believe that the last cycle was significantly worse, but it was.

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<v Speaker 1>It was significantly worse, right, So so in my mind,

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<v Speaker 1>because I think in exponential terms for crypto, this is

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<v Speaker 1>a big sideways channel. You just have to basically have

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<v Speaker 1>a time horizon that allows you to chop in a

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<v Speaker 1>big sideways channel so that when we do break out,

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<v Speaker 1>you understand the difference. Right, And when we're at two

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty thousand big point, which I'm pretty sure

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<v Speaker 1>is coming, people aren't. People are going to look at

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<v Speaker 1>this like a long like a seven month sideways channel

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<v Speaker 1>that you see what I'm saying. So again, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of I don't have the luxury to

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<v Speaker 1>think about price all day. I'm really thinking about next

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<v Speaker 1>gen products. But but I know a lot of people do,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's my perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's I really appreciate that. Then that's great perspective

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<v Speaker 2>because if you have the macro view, to your point,

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<v Speaker 2>you kind of see this part of the cycle kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like a sideways channel. And then you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>the past ballmark, a lot of people had the questions

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<v Speaker 2>of why was it so lack of low luster all

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<v Speaker 2>coins hitting perform as they did in previous bull markets.

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<v Speaker 2>Bitcoin itself didn't perform as well as it did in

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<v Speaker 2>previous bull markets, you know, talking about percentage gains. But

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<v Speaker 2>to your point, the AI trade there was also a

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<v Speaker 2>big bull run with gold and silver. Precious metals did

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<v Speaker 2>really well. But and you highlighted that, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>AI bubble is going to start to cool down a

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<v Speaker 2>bit and there's going to be rotation. So it's having

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<v Speaker 2>that macro view and being paid. Not only that, but

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<v Speaker 2>let's keep if I one, I think bitcoin bottom that

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<v Speaker 2>like what fourteen, maybe it dwiged down to fourteen post ftx.

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<v Speaker 2>That's an eight x run from from the bottom to

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<v Speaker 2>the top. So let's have a little perspective. If we

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<v Speaker 2>get an ad X run from the bottom this time,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll be at you know, close to half a million, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying that's going to happen in one shot.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to happen at some point because the government

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<v Speaker 2>government keeps printing money. That's the only thing that slows

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<v Speaker 2>the train down is stop printing money. And we obviously

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<v Speaker 2>don't know how to do that. So, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>as it relates to the old coins, I think that

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<v Speaker 2>the good news is is we see three things. One,

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<v Speaker 2>we see what works, right. A lot of token economics

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<v Speaker 2>are broken, right. You know, I'm super bullish on the

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<v Speaker 2>suy platform, for example, I hold a lot of it,

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<v Speaker 2>full disclosure, I love it. But the token economics of

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<v Speaker 2>all of these l ones concern me right now, meaning

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<v Speaker 2>meaning how do they sustainably make money? Right, so that

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<v Speaker 2>the foundation isn't out raising money every year? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm on the board of Algorand and I spend a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of time thinking about the future of token economics. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>how are we going to build as an industry a

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<v Speaker 2>sustainable model? You know?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, hyper liquid is a perfect example of something

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<v Speaker 1>that has built a sustainable model. So that's that's issue

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<v Speaker 1>number one. Issue number two is the stuff that has

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<v Speaker 1>no value and adds no value to people, it should

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<v Speaker 1>just wither and die. You know, I heard I heard,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, pop one of your peers basically talking about

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<v Speaker 1>crypto is dead. And I think that's what he meant.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think he means that Sowana and Suey and

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<v Speaker 1>aptos and tokenized equities and stable coins and bitcoin are dying.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he's personally invested in bullish on those things.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he's basically saying, all the bullshit, all the chafe,

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<v Speaker 1>it's going to go away, whether and diet it deserves to,

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<v Speaker 1>quite honestly. And I think the third point is is

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<v Speaker 1>you know this retail narrative that I mentioned before, and

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<v Speaker 1>so all of those things I think are going to

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<v Speaker 1>be good for the industry, and we will figure out

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<v Speaker 1>a viable economic model so that, you know, once block

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<v Speaker 1>space is at a premium, that the companies are actually

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<v Speaker 1>making money and that will be reflected in the value

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<v Speaker 1>that people are willing to pay to hold the asset.

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<v Speaker 2>Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of

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<v Speaker 2>the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if

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<v Speaker 2>you can, please support the podcast by hitting the like

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<v Speaker 2>button subscribing. If you haven't as yet, you can leave

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<v Speaker 2>a comment below as well. And if you're listening on

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<v Speaker 2>a podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple or wherever you

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<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts, please be sure to follow and hit

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<v Speaker 2>the five star rating. I'll let you get back to

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<v Speaker 2>the content. Thank you so much. Yeah, you know the

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<v Speaker 2>first issue you mentioned with generating revenue, I know that's

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<v Speaker 2>something a lot of people are thinking about and what

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<v Speaker 2>that token model looks like and so forth, and is

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<v Speaker 2>it more institutions building on these chains and a share

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<v Speaker 2>of the fees that are being generated on the chain

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<v Speaker 2>goes to some sort of pool or to the users.

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<v Speaker 2>Any ideas that you can share that you know think, Well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a longer discussion, but basically Ethereum's scaling roadmap

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<v Speaker 2>completely screwed the space. In my opinion, it was just

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<v Speaker 2>a huge architectural faux pa. And they know now that

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<v Speaker 2>they screwed this up right, I mean, Ethereum is a

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<v Speaker 2>mess in my opinion, and everything basically all of the

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<v Speaker 2>value is accruing to L two's and you know, Base

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't charge fees because it's basically centralized from a deployment perspective,

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<v Speaker 2>so the incentives aren't required. I don't know how it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to work if BA becomes truly distributed, because there's

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<v Speaker 2>no incentives to participate other than the applications you might

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<v Speaker 2>be running on top of it. And so if you

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<v Speaker 2>look at like most of the other competing l ones,

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<v Speaker 2>the cost per transaction is so low that they just

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<v Speaker 2>don't make money, right, I mean, think about the volume

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<v Speaker 2>in mean coins that Solana needed to be doing to

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<v Speaker 2>make money. They needed to basically do Visa like volumes

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<v Speaker 2>in mean coins in order to generate some revenue. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not sustainable. So we need a business model for

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<v Speaker 1>the space, and hopefully competing business models. I'll like the

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<v Speaker 1>hyper liquid example I gave you, which is totally transparent,

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<v Speaker 1>says Okay, this project can sustain itself. I don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to be using technology that I think is going to

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<v Speaker 1>go away because they have no financial viable way to

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<v Speaker 1>financially stay in business, and so nobody wants that. A

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<v Speaker 1>developer doesn't want to make a bet on better technology

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to go away because they're going to go broke. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>So the space needs to figure that out. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think when Ethereum stopped making money at the layer one

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<v Speaker 1>layer right because they went to this layer two layer architecture,

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<v Speaker 1>it just screwed the whole space up, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>now they're kind of stuck. And so look, the lot

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<v Speaker 1>of layer two technology is very interesting from a technology perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>but from an economic perspective, it perpetuates the problem, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And Solana may have the best of the worst economic

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<v Speaker 1>models that are out there. It's something I'm very focused

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<v Speaker 1>on in trying to add value in the discussions. I

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<v Speaker 1>can tell you you know, behind the curtains at Algoran,

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<v Speaker 1>but the space in general has a problem with this

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<v Speaker 1>technology is improving at an awesome rate. The ability, Like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm just having conversation with the Salona folks

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<v Speaker 1>earlier today on their vault technology, which I'm really bullish on.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>I just mentioned Algoran and the stuff they're doing on

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<v Speaker 1>being quantum ready of super bolish on and that's great,

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<v Speaker 1>but we got to get our economic house together as

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<v Speaker 1>a as an industry so that you know, people who

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<v Speaker 1>are holding these assets aren't just making staking revenue on

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<v Speaker 1>us diluting everyone else, you know, that's that wasn't really

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<v Speaker 1>the intention of migrating to proof of steak. It was

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<v Speaker 1>that there would be a viable, you know, financial model,

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<v Speaker 1>business model behind the scenes that perpetuated these platforms at

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<v Speaker 1>you know, very large visa like scale.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, And do you think that might be one

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<v Speaker 2>of the big catalysts or narratives for the next bull

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<v Speaker 2>run up? Usually there's things like AI privacy. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we had DeFi summer at the last bowl up well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, twenty twenty one. Uh, do you think some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of yield or generating revenue might be a big narrative?

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<v Speaker 2>I do? I do.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean hyper Liquid showed us the way look at

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<v Speaker 1>the on the side. Now, DM is not crypt native project,

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<v Speaker 1>but they use crypto to facilitate access to the to

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, to their API. Cloud fare Flare is

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<v Speaker 1>doing something similar with their API for their web stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>which I tweeted on, which I think is brilliant. I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's the future of transaction processing in AI. But

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<v Speaker 1>it's very clear in that model how those applications of

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<v Speaker 1>dum and cloud flare and hyper liquid all make money.

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<v Speaker 1>But how does and I mean I mean hyper Liquid

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<v Speaker 1>the app, not hype the blockchain. It just so happens.

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<v Speaker 1>In that case, they don't have to worry about how

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<v Speaker 1>hyper liquid makes money because it's the same group more

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<v Speaker 1>or less.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So, So, but in the model I'm describing, if I'm

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<v Speaker 1>running a PERP dex on Solana, is Solana printing money

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<v Speaker 1>if they're getting the same level of traction as Hype

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<v Speaker 1>probably not? Right, So, so that's a problem. We want.

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<v Speaker 1>We want Solana to make money. We want Ethereum to

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<v Speaker 1>make money. We want Algorth to make money because we

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<v Speaker 1>don't want them to die, right, we want them to

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<v Speaker 1>be the future of AI transaction processing.

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<v Speaker 2>M Well, I hold all those in my portfolios fully

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<v Speaker 2>agreement with you.

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<v Speaker 1>And look, look, I think everyone in those foundations is

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<v Speaker 1>focused on this problem now, I really do. I believe

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<v Speaker 1>that if they're not, they're crazy. I can tell you

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<v Speaker 1>we are. I can tell you know, I'm not not

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<v Speaker 1>in the ABRA, but but you know algorith is and

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<v Speaker 1>you know ABRA.

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<v Speaker 2>My day job.

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<v Speaker 1>Our job is simply to build on top of those platforms,

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<v Speaker 1>to build the future of wealth management and banking. And

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<v Speaker 1>from that perspective, it's going great. You know that the

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<v Speaker 1>capabilities just keep getting better and better all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Hm. That is certainly a problem we have to figure out, Bill,

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<v Speaker 2>and hopefully we can figure it out within the next

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<v Speaker 2>year as we potentially head back into a bull phase

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<v Speaker 2>of the market. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think I think there's some a few narratives

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<v Speaker 1>that will cause the bull phase to to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>catch up with the liquidity that's been driving crypto prices

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<v Speaker 1>for ten years, but that will keep for another ten years.

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<v Speaker 2>And speaking of the four year cycles, Bill, do you

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<v Speaker 2>think that may break at some point? I know you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned like when you zoom out on the charts, this

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<v Speaker 2>phase or this possible market could look like a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a channel that we're just in before a major cycle peak.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think that four year cycle breaks at all?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the liquidity cycle for the dollar bitcoin correlation

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<v Speaker 1>will hold. And whether that stays four years or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>morphs into something else based upon you know, havings and

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<v Speaker 1>how mining morphs over time, I don't know. But I

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<v Speaker 1>do think that the correlation between the liquidity cycles that

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<v Speaker 1>you know, many other macro folks talk about all the

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<v Speaker 1>time publicly, that has been holding reasonably well, especially on

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<v Speaker 1>a log chart, and it does you know, correlate with

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<v Speaker 1>four years pretty well. A lot of people thought it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't this cycle, and it turns out it actually is.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not you know, one to one as it relates

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<v Speaker 1>to other coins which tend to move in lockstep with bitcoin.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't see how that persists over time. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that the l ones in particular will be largely platform

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<v Speaker 1>driven at some point, meaning they will get some halo

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<v Speaker 1>effect on the ability to take profits from bitcoin and

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<v Speaker 1>come back, But largely I think it's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>the last discussion on figuring out the economic model plus

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<v Speaker 1>massive scale and usage. Right, everything gets a halo effect

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<v Speaker 1>from liquidity. Everything that's tech, NASDAC, Bitcoin, you know, alternative

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<v Speaker 1>l ones, AI, it doesn't matter, it all gets a

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<v Speaker 1>halo effect.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>The correlation there to global liquidity over time is like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, ninety seven percent. It's just a question of

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<v Speaker 1>if it's a levered bet, which one is going to

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<v Speaker 1>get the most benefit. And I think basically what's going

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<v Speaker 1>to happen is is that you know, the l ones

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<v Speaker 1>are simply going to have to survive on their own, right,

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<v Speaker 1>be a very significant usage with a viable economic model,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the applications will always move at the pace

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<v Speaker 1>of adoption. Right, hyper liquid right now doesn't care that

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<v Speaker 1>cryptos and aduldrums. It's doing fine because it's basically growing

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<v Speaker 1>like a weed. You know, dm is is Venice is

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<v Speaker 1>growing like a weed right on the AI side, right

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<v Speaker 1>because it offers real value with its with its privacy platform.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually don't understand how it works, but supposedly it does

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<v Speaker 1>give you privacy on a you know, crypto AI API

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<v Speaker 1>usage that's that's value to someone. And so as a result,

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<v Speaker 1>the usage has been going through the roof and the

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<v Speaker 1>price of those assets is ten xt and then deservedly

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<v Speaker 1>so and has nothing to do with global liquidity in

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<v Speaker 1>my opinion, how do.

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<v Speaker 2>You think this situation with all coins and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the problem that they have to figure out affects digital

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<v Speaker 2>acid treasure companies like you got tom Lee and bitmind

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<v Speaker 2>buying incredible amounts of Etheroreum. There's obviously other out there

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<v Speaker 2>for avax and Swee and so forth. How do you

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<v Speaker 2>think those fair you know, are they going to be okay?

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<v Speaker 2>Once did we get back into bold cycle?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Ethereum is in a unique position versus everyone else

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<v Speaker 1>because Ethereum is still you know, the granddaddy of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>DeFi and crypto based lending and bitcoin back loans are

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<v Speaker 1>predominantly issued on Ethereum, and and that's the killer use

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<v Speaker 1>case for DeFi remains borrowing against bitcoin, right, So, so

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, I think I think Ethereum has more

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<v Speaker 1>runway to get there, just based upon the existing momentum,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, with with ave and token is equities coming,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know UNI swap, and you know all the

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<v Speaker 1>great work that's already been done at the base layer

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<v Speaker 1>forgetting about the L two's right, and and and then

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<v Speaker 1>there is great work happening there. So so I think

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<v Speaker 1>Ethereum could get to a trillion dollar market cap if

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<v Speaker 1>it really figures out and publishes a viable L one

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<v Speaker 1>roadmap that starts giving economic value to the base layer itself.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that Batalic gets that now. I think

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<v Speaker 1>he I don't know if he would say regret. I

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<v Speaker 1>think he should feel regret over the roadmap that they

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<v Speaker 1>published years ago. I'm in some way I'm guessing they do.

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<v Speaker 1>But he'll never say that publicly, not the way I'm saying,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm pretty sure he feels that way based on

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the vibe and and so if they do that,

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<v Speaker 1>which I think is going to happen this year, I

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<v Speaker 1>think you could see a real spike in ethereum based

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<v Speaker 1>upon the promise of what's coming, meaning I could actually

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<v Speaker 1>accrue real revenue by holding you know, eth so so,

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<v Speaker 1>and whether the other ones can get there the same way,

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<v Speaker 1>it's going to be harder, you know. I do think

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<v Speaker 1>that that we're going to see probably seven or eight

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<v Speaker 1>interesting or even up to ten interesting l ones competing

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<v Speaker 1>in different ways public blockchains, I not even counting the

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<v Speaker 1>private ones with different economic models. But everyone is going

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<v Speaker 1>to have to get there in their own way.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. And on the Bitcoin side, you have Michael Saylor

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<v Speaker 2>and Strategy now having to pivot to selling a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more bitcoin because they're involved in what they would like

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<v Speaker 2>to call digital credit and paying out yield and so forth.

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<v Speaker 2>What are your thoughts on that situation and the pivot

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<v Speaker 2>they had to take.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think he had to sell a lot more bitcoin.

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<v Speaker 1>He was selling none. So versus selling none, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>selling one is infinitely more. But so I guess two things.

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<v Speaker 1>One the narrative before stretch, which is their preferred you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for the non cryptodati folks listening it's their preferred shareholding,

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<v Speaker 1>which basically gives you a fixed return on the principle

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<v Speaker 1>paid for the stock or the par value of the stock.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he basically was marketing mstr to institutions and

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<v Speaker 1>basically telling retail hold Bitcoin, don't hold micro strategy, and

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<v Speaker 1>so you can get away with a lot more from

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<v Speaker 1>a securities marketing legal perspective, I think, And I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>a lawyer, I'm not using legalies here. If you're basically

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<v Speaker 1>telling people, don't buy my shares, okay, But now with Stretch,

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<v Speaker 1>he's telling retail buy my shares because it's a great

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<v Speaker 1>way to hold dollars because you're basically going to earn

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<v Speaker 1>a than and a half percent. The problem with that

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00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:35.799
<v Speaker 1>is implicit in that statement is is that the par

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<v Speaker 1>value of the shares is going to stay the same.

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<v Speaker 1>Because if I'm paying you eleven and a half percent

402
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<v Speaker 1>of what you paid, but what you paid is worth

403
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.680
<v Speaker 1>eighty twenty percent less, that's a big problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's a retail legal issue for him. So he

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<v Speaker 1>has to do, in my opinion, whatever he can to

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<v Speaker 1>get that thing close to one hundred cents on the

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<v Speaker 1>dollar quickly. And there's only really two ways that he

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<v Speaker 1>can do that end of the day. First is keep

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<v Speaker 1>raising the rate, and the second is to buy back

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<v Speaker 1>some of those shares and stop itsuing new ones, right

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<v Speaker 1>so to create less supply and more demand artificially. The

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<v Speaker 1>problem with that is is either one of those is

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<v Speaker 1>he has to fund both of those somehow, and the

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<v Speaker 1>money that he raised by selling those shares in the

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<v Speaker 1>first place has all gone to buy bitcoin, and so

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<v Speaker 1>that basically limits his options because he can raise more

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<v Speaker 1>money and you know, dilute his shareholders, or he can

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<v Speaker 1>basically sell some bitcoin. And I think he did the

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<v Speaker 1>ladder initially to send a message to the market that hey,

421
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:43.799
<v Speaker 1>you know, MSTR and Stretch will both be fine, because

422
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:47.319
<v Speaker 1>even at fifty k bitcoin, you know, we're still sitting

423
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.920
<v Speaker 1>on tens of billions of dollars of of bitcoin. And

424
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:56.640
<v Speaker 1>so I think he has figured this out. The question is,

425
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:58.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, what will it take to get Stretched back

426
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:00.519
<v Speaker 1>to close to one hundred cents on the dollar. And

427
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.519
<v Speaker 1>my guess is is that you know, they'll probably end

428
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.440
<v Speaker 1>up having to buy some of it back, wait for

429
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.319
<v Speaker 1>another bull market, and you know, figure it out. But

430
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:14.799
<v Speaker 1>I think this theory that you can just sell into

431
00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:18.440
<v Speaker 1>a bear market to raise money on the cheap has

432
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.279
<v Speaker 1>a downside this and it's what you're seeing right now.

433
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.359
<v Speaker 1>If you're using retail to fund, if you're using institutions

434
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:28.160
<v Speaker 1>to fund, it doesn't really matter because you have a

435
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:32.480
<v Speaker 1>way to convert to them to my MSDR shares right.

436
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.880
<v Speaker 1>He doesn't have that option with stretch.

437
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Billy. Does any of this feel like what happened before

438
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.200
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eight? And again, I don't want strategy

439
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:46.960
<v Speaker 2>to collapse. I'm not calling for that, but the amount

440
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:50.839
<v Speaker 2>of debt worries me. You know, it feels like and

441
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.599
<v Speaker 2>again I could be off base here, but it just

442
00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.920
<v Speaker 2>has the feelings of and look and feel of the

443
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:01.279
<v Speaker 2>mortgage bonds house of cards, right leveraging that up to

444
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.119
<v Speaker 2>the max and then we know what happened after that.

445
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Is there any danger of that happening here with what

446
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:06.720
<v Speaker 2>sailors doing?

447
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.279
<v Speaker 1>Not? Really? Look if he just basically said we're going

448
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.079
<v Speaker 1>to buy all stretch back, I don't know how much

449
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:18.039
<v Speaker 1>has been issued, but you know it certainly would cause

450
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, I could imagine a five or ten K

451
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.200
<v Speaker 1>drop in bitcoin because it's just the amount of bitcoin

452
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:23.799
<v Speaker 1>you'd have to sell. But that would be a one

453
00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:26.160
<v Speaker 1>time thing, right, and then he'd just get back to

454
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:27.839
<v Speaker 1>doing what he was doing before, which is at the

455
00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:31.759
<v Speaker 1>market deals and you know, convertibles and probably at a

456
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.119
<v Speaker 1>slower pace, right and slow. That's fine he did. It's

457
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.359
<v Speaker 1>an experiment. It's not going to kill him. It's not

458
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:39.720
<v Speaker 1>going to kill micro strategy. It's not going to kill bitcoin.

459
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:44.119
<v Speaker 1>It might hurt you know, some preferred shareholders in the

460
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.400
<v Speaker 1>meantime who need that liquidity now, right if they were

461
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:49.400
<v Speaker 1>If you're in a Stretch and your goal is to

462
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:53.279
<v Speaker 1>basically earn ten percent annualized over a six month period,

463
00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:55.200
<v Speaker 1>and you bought it one hundred cents in the dollar

464
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.160
<v Speaker 1>and not trading at eighty seven cents, which is where

465
00:24:57.160 --> 00:24:59.119
<v Speaker 1>I think it is now, and you have to sell now,

466
00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.559
<v Speaker 1>you've actually lost money on a net basis, right, So

467
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:07.799
<v Speaker 1>that's the problem, right, It's it's micro Strategy will be fine.

468
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Bitcoin will be fine, the space will be fine. Those

469
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:17.400
<v Speaker 1>people who bought Stretch for a short term replacement for

470
00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:19.880
<v Speaker 1>something like a money market product at a higher yield,

471
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:25.599
<v Speaker 1>those people might get screwed. And so he knows that,

472
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:28.039
<v Speaker 1>and that's why he basically did his announcement last week

473
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.400
<v Speaker 1>that you know, they're committed to, you know, maintaining that

474
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:37.039
<v Speaker 1>peg and by raising the rate and potentially even buying

475
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:37.880
<v Speaker 1>back some of the shares.

476
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.559
<v Speaker 2>M That makes sense. I want to ask you about

477
00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:45.240
<v Speaker 2>the Clarity Act because we're recording this on Friday, July tenth,

478
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.799
<v Speaker 2>and the Senate and Congress is back in session next week.

479
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.240
<v Speaker 2>There may be a big push to get this bill

480
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 2>done through the Senate. Obviously they have to go through

481
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:58.000
<v Speaker 2>all their respective hoops and all those things. What odds

482
00:25:58.039 --> 00:25:59.960
<v Speaker 2>are you giving that this bill passes by the end

483
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:00.359
<v Speaker 2>of July?

484
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:07.799
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, you know, you could probably create a montage

485
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:12.480
<v Speaker 1>of me answering this question seventeen times with seventeen different numbers.

486
00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:16.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering what the average of those numbers would be

487
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:18.720
<v Speaker 1>for the nonsense that I've probably spewed on this topic

488
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.599
<v Speaker 1>over the last year. And I readily admit that I,

489
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 1>in hindsight, had no fing idea what I was talking about.

490
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:29.519
<v Speaker 1>How often do you hear that from guests on your show?

491
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:35.839
<v Speaker 1>And we're so close though, Yeah, I mean, look, my

492
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:41.599
<v Speaker 1>intuition says this thing is passable. Right, the big issue

493
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:47.119
<v Speaker 1>remains ethics and warrant and and can we get seven

494
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:51.839
<v Speaker 1>people on the Senate side to you know, come over

495
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:54.640
<v Speaker 1>and and vote and get this thing and and get

496
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.000
<v Speaker 1>through reconciliation, et cetera, et cetera. Next week is a

497
00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.599
<v Speaker 1>big week and a bunch of us are going to

498
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.720
<v Speaker 1>be in DC, and you know, anyway, I'm not answering

499
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:05.519
<v Speaker 1>your question directly because I actually don't know.

500
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:07.200
<v Speaker 2>It's tough.

501
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.400
<v Speaker 1>It's tough. It's in my mind right now, it's fifty

502
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:13.680
<v Speaker 1>to fifty, and I'm I'm really trying to basically not

503
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:16.440
<v Speaker 1>just be optimistic. I'm trying to basically look at all

504
00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:18.960
<v Speaker 1>sides here because I have clients who this matters to

505
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:22.799
<v Speaker 1>and to whom this matters, and I do think that

506
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.440
<v Speaker 1>it is probably, you know, as an odds maker of

507
00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:28.960
<v Speaker 1>fifty to fifty, you know, I think some of the

508
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:31.599
<v Speaker 1>endorsements that came out last week are going to help

509
00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:37.039
<v Speaker 1>with the Dems, especially for things like public safety. There

510
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:39.720
<v Speaker 1>was like a Shriff's Association and some of the law

511
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:43.400
<v Speaker 1>enforcement groups that came out in favor of Clarity, and

512
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:46.359
<v Speaker 1>I think what they're basically getting educated on is this

513
00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:52.039
<v Speaker 1>idea that hey, this underlying technology is actually beneficial to

514
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:57.000
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement, and that's been proven on a pretty steady

515
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:01.240
<v Speaker 1>basis over a ten year period now, whether it's the

516
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:04.480
<v Speaker 1>early days of bitcoin and Silk Road or crap, you know,

517
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.000
<v Speaker 1>all the way through to you know what what has

518
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.960
<v Speaker 1>happened in you know, myriad thefts and DeFi and whatnot.

519
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.559
<v Speaker 1>So so so that's good news that probably would get

520
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:18.400
<v Speaker 1>I might have said forty percent two weeks ago, and

521
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:20.920
<v Speaker 1>I think I'm at like fifty to fifty with a

522
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:25.400
<v Speaker 1>slight up swing maybe fifty one percent right now, you know. So,

523
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:28.319
<v Speaker 1>so it's it's tough. It's so much emotion now, which

524
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:32.359
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't you know, I don't know, it's too much emotion

525
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:33.759
<v Speaker 1>with this issue for too many people.

526
00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:38.079
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And I know government moves slow. So we'll see,

527
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:40.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, could they pull a rabbit out of that

528
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:44.000
<v Speaker 2>hat and you know, you know, fast track this, it's possible,

529
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:46.160
<v Speaker 2>but well we'll have to wait and see. You know,

530
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:49.000
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned some of your clients without giving names. You

531
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.200
<v Speaker 2>mentioned that this is very important to them. Is it

532
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:54.720
<v Speaker 2>that they want that regulatory clarity so they can start

533
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:55.880
<v Speaker 2>building and investing more?

534
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, okay, so we have clients who don't even understand

535
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:01.319
<v Speaker 1>what I'm talking about here or what we're talking about here.

536
00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:05.400
<v Speaker 1>I just know that it's indirectly important to them because

537
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:09.960
<v Speaker 1>of what we're building for them. Okay, meaning our chances

538
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.079
<v Speaker 1>of success with clarity go up passing are are incrementally better. Okay,

539
00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:19.200
<v Speaker 1>We've just licensed up and you know, registered as or

540
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:21.400
<v Speaker 1>I AD all these things to put a motor around us,

541
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.640
<v Speaker 1>and that moat gets thicker with clarity, wider than with

542
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:29.720
<v Speaker 1>clarity than without it. So and then we have clients

543
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.279
<v Speaker 1>who are smart enough to make, you know, trading bets

544
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.640
<v Speaker 1>based upon which way the wind is blowing, smarter than

545
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.680
<v Speaker 1>their mind. And that's fine, that's that's not necessarily wrong.

546
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:42.720
<v Speaker 1>And some of them, you know, are asking our opinion

547
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.279
<v Speaker 1>pretty regularly. Hey, you know, one is this thing going

548
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:46.839
<v Speaker 1>to pass? And two is it going to represent a

549
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:50.319
<v Speaker 1>tailwind for the broader crypto space from a price perspective?

550
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I basically tell them what I tell

551
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:56.119
<v Speaker 1>you now, which is, if you've asked me seventeen times

552
00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:58.279
<v Speaker 1>over the last two years, you've gotten seventeen different answers,

553
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:01.119
<v Speaker 1>and you're probably annoyed as hell. And it's a function

554
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:03.319
<v Speaker 1>of the visibility we've had into this process at any

555
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:10.200
<v Speaker 1>given time. And but if we don't get this done

556
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:14.720
<v Speaker 1>before summer, recess or whatever the right term is. It's

557
00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:21.000
<v Speaker 1>a problem because right now, my bet is our odds

558
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.279
<v Speaker 1>on the House have improved, but they're still against us

559
00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:25.640
<v Speaker 1>in terms of like the crypto space. I'm not talking

560
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:28.559
<v Speaker 1>just you know, yes, Democrats are likely to take back

561
00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:33.799
<v Speaker 1>the House, which hurts clarity. I think Senate, we've improved

562
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 1>our situation a little bit. I think this thing in

563
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Maine that happened this week is a little odd, so

564
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:41.079
<v Speaker 1>that might have helped our case a little bit as well.

565
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:43.960
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, I don't know, but I have a feeling

566
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.119
<v Speaker 1>we'll keep the Senate. But regardless, it becomes very difficult

567
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:51.119
<v Speaker 1>to get controversial legislation done if it's not done before

568
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:56.240
<v Speaker 1>the midterms. Based upon the visibility that I have. I'm

569
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.920
<v Speaker 1>not a political polling expert, but I just the basic

570
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.319
<v Speaker 1>reading of the tea leaves says we need to get

571
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:07.359
<v Speaker 1>this done now or it could be years before we

572
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:08.599
<v Speaker 1>get another shot. Years.

573
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, time is certainly of the essence. You know. One

574
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.920
<v Speaker 2>of the things I saw recently from the Senator Kristen Gillibrand,

575
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.880
<v Speaker 2>who's been a crypto champion and she's a Democrat, she

576
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.880
<v Speaker 2>put out a provision I believe to block politicians and

577
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:27.039
<v Speaker 2>elected officials from holding or having meme coins, and maybe

578
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:29.880
<v Speaker 2>that's a compromise that the Democrats can agree upon and say, hey,

579
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.240
<v Speaker 2>you know what, this works. We agree that we'll figure

580
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.119
<v Speaker 2>out the other assets, even stocks, and the larger ethics issue,

581
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.920
<v Speaker 2>because it's not a crypto specific issue. But if we

582
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.599
<v Speaker 2>block meme coins, maybe that works, and might hope I'm

583
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:44.559
<v Speaker 2>praying that that's the compromise.

584
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:47.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, hey, look, maybe it'll motivate some of these politicians

585
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:50.720
<v Speaker 1>to spend less time in office, and we'll get term

586
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:53.559
<v Speaker 1>limits by default because everybody just desperately wants to own

587
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:56.240
<v Speaker 1>meme coins and they can't because they're in Congress, and

588
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:58.720
<v Speaker 1>so they'll all start resigning in mass and we'll have

589
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:02.400
<v Speaker 1>natural term limits, which is obviously I'm kidding, it's not

590
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:06.240
<v Speaker 1>going to happen. But my point is, like, there's a

591
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:08.359
<v Speaker 1>million things that are more important that we could be

592
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.799
<v Speaker 1>spending time on. I get why she's doing it. I'm

593
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:12.920
<v Speaker 1>not you know, I'm not knocking her. I think she's

594
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.119
<v Speaker 1>been a great champion. I'm just making a point facetiously, like, hey,

595
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:19.119
<v Speaker 1>come on, let's get this done. Let's move on to

596
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.839
<v Speaker 1>important things. By the way, like, you know, not allowing

597
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:25.440
<v Speaker 1>people in Congress who've been in office for forty years

598
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:28.599
<v Speaker 1>to have it trade on inside information. You know, that's

599
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.559
<v Speaker 1>kind of table stakes in my opinion, for you know,

600
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:36.039
<v Speaker 1>like a code of ethics, and the fact that that

601
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.319
<v Speaker 1>we still don't have that is insane to me. Insane

602
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:43.160
<v Speaker 1>And the fact that people don't voluntarily do that is

603
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:46.079
<v Speaker 1>also insane to me. And and so if we want

604
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:49.720
<v Speaker 1>to fix something, let's fix that. Ultimately, we should fix

605
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:52.000
<v Speaker 1>term limits, but that's not going to happen anytime sooner.

606
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's a constitutional amendment. So that's just that's

607
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:57.400
<v Speaker 1>just not gonna happen. But at least we could, you know,

608
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.640
<v Speaker 1>fix some ethics issues which have nothing to do with crypto.

609
00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:03.400
<v Speaker 1>It just has to do with, you know, how people

610
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:05.559
<v Speaker 1>who are in office for decades enrich themselves.

611
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:10.319
<v Speaker 2>It's wild, Bill, And it's only until crypto and social

612
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:14.160
<v Speaker 2>media that I've learned that, you know, I and I

613
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:17.279
<v Speaker 2>and I wonder if Bill, because the information is spreading

614
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.359
<v Speaker 2>out there. There's portfolio trackers, you know, the Pelosi tracker

615
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:21.000
<v Speaker 2>and all that.

616
00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:25.680
<v Speaker 1>It's unbelievable. I mean, I don't know if it's legal

617
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:29.319
<v Speaker 1>to create an ETF called the Pelosi Tracker, but I

618
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.039
<v Speaker 1>mean everybody should just I guess it's not investment advice.

619
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:36.119
<v Speaker 1>But if you plowed into that, you'd be doing really well.

620
00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:38.440
<v Speaker 2>But I wonder, you know, from a macro perspective, larger

621
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.279
<v Speaker 2>conversation because of this technology, because people are able to

622
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:47.480
<v Speaker 2>share information fast and crowdsource that this exposes the politicians

623
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:49.720
<v Speaker 2>and it puts pressure on them to change things. And

624
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:53.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe my daughter's generation, as he's eight years old, it's

625
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:55.680
<v Speaker 2>much better. There's less of this, and eventually they get

626
00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:59.720
<v Speaker 2>around to passing legislation to fix that. I don't know.

627
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I think I think the way AI

628
00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.960
<v Speaker 1>is coming on strong and the exponential growth at its abilities.

629
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:11.199
<v Speaker 1>I think we're approaching AGI at a PhD level. I

630
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.559
<v Speaker 1>think we had a GI at a master's level last year,

631
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:16.800
<v Speaker 1>and I think we're going to have a GI at

632
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.519
<v Speaker 1>a PhD level where it can start to have original

633
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:23.599
<v Speaker 1>ideas over the next twelve months. And then I think

634
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.000
<v Speaker 1>ASI comes two to three years later, and then it

635
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:29.119
<v Speaker 1>and then it's no longer LLM. It literally can think

636
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:31.760
<v Speaker 1>from first principles perspective. It can't think from first principles.

637
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.679
<v Speaker 1>Now it's still guessing based upon lots and lots of data.

638
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.880
<v Speaker 1>It's just getting really good at guessing. And so when

639
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:41.760
<v Speaker 1>it starts to think from first principles perspective, who the

640
00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:44.559
<v Speaker 1>whole universe that we know is going to change so

641
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 1>dramatically that every one of these discussions, you know, it's

642
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.880
<v Speaker 1>all going to change. So and that's you know, that's

643
00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:56.480
<v Speaker 1>DVANCE will inherit that hopefully or AOC will inherit that,

644
00:34:56.519 --> 00:35:00.280
<v Speaker 1>not not Trump. And so in that world it's going

645
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.079
<v Speaker 1>to come down to, is that is that superintelligence that

646
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.840
<v Speaker 1>thinks from first principles controlled by US government and the

647
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Chinese government, or has it become basically commoditized and free

648
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.440
<v Speaker 1>for all and we basically move towards you know, a

649
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:18.159
<v Speaker 1>true kind of utopian society and have to think through

650
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:22.239
<v Speaker 1>bigger issues like you be, universal basic ownership and things

651
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:24.119
<v Speaker 1>like that, which you know, I don't know the answers

652
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:28.480
<v Speaker 1>for all that stuff, but but you know that's where

653
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:30.239
<v Speaker 1>this is headed. And I think crypto is going to

654
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:32.159
<v Speaker 1>play a key part of that because it is going

655
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:38.880
<v Speaker 1>to become for the ASI world probably the transaction processing system. Right,

656
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.960
<v Speaker 1>They're not going to say, oh, you know, my monkey user,

657
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.480
<v Speaker 1>please install an oracle database. It's not going to happen, right, So,

658
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:48.760
<v Speaker 1>so so I realized this is not about This doesn't

659
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:51.800
<v Speaker 1>sound like it's about politics, but it is because I

660
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.239
<v Speaker 1>think we're basically the rocket is I use this analogy

661
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:59.119
<v Speaker 1>all the time. The rocket is heading towards the cliff, right,

662
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:01.320
<v Speaker 1>and it's heading towards the cliff, and you can't stop it.

663
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:02.960
<v Speaker 1>The question is which way is it going to go

664
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:05.440
<v Speaker 1>when it gets to the cliff, And in my opinion,

665
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:08.760
<v Speaker 1>is the rocket going this way is basically the government

666
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:11.920
<v Speaker 1>not owning it, and the rocket going this way is

667
00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:15.280
<v Speaker 1>the government owning it. And that is basically going to

668
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:21.000
<v Speaker 1>affect everything everything. There's nothing that it won't affect. It'll

669
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:24.119
<v Speaker 1>affect your money, it'll affect your how your schooled, It'll

670
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:28.760
<v Speaker 1>affect how transport works, how vacations work, how you know,

671
00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:32.559
<v Speaker 1>social security systems around the world work, how basic ownership works,

672
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:36.519
<v Speaker 1>et cetera, et cetera. And so you know that's that walls.

673
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:38.519
<v Speaker 1>The rocket is heading towards that cliff right now.

674
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:42.679
<v Speaker 2>You know you mentioned that AI will use blockchain rails

675
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:45.079
<v Speaker 2>to transact, and we're seeing a lot of folks building

676
00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:49.119
<v Speaker 2>AI agent wallets, crypto wallets, and different types of applications.

677
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:52.039
<v Speaker 2>Do you also see blockchain being used to police AI

678
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:54.400
<v Speaker 2>because we have a problem with deep fakes, they're going

679
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:58.480
<v Speaker 2>to get more sophisticated. But to your point, the intelligence right,

680
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:02.400
<v Speaker 2>the IQ so high, how do we put the guardrails

681
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:05.639
<v Speaker 2>in place? And it seems like cryptography, blockchains using cryptography

682
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:07.800
<v Speaker 2>will be a way to do it. Yeah.

683
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:11.199
<v Speaker 1>So, so I was listening to a talk on you know,

684
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:14.760
<v Speaker 1>my friend Peter Demonus does the Moonshots podcast, which is

685
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:17.239
<v Speaker 1>pretty good. Yeah, and they were, they were actually it's

686
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:21.360
<v Speaker 1>very good. They were talking about this issue of KYC access.

687
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:24.159
<v Speaker 1>You know when when Anthropic went offline with their mythos,

688
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:27.840
<v Speaker 1>like where their mythos light because of the you know,

689
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:31.039
<v Speaker 1>the executive order and should we have KYC and you know,

690
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:33.280
<v Speaker 1>you could use the K technology to solve a lot

691
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:35.039
<v Speaker 1>of this. Now, they wouldn't have said that on their

692
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.639
<v Speaker 1>podcast because they don't know what K technology is, right

693
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.800
<v Speaker 1>at least I would guess they don't. And and so

694
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:43.760
<v Speaker 1>someone will figure that stuff out. Right, if you need

695
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:48.039
<v Speaker 1>to basically police and you being the euphemism for somebody

696
00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:50.239
<v Speaker 1>arbitrarily decides that they need to police, I don't think

697
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:53.280
<v Speaker 1>you need to police anyone. But but I think you

698
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:54.920
<v Speaker 1>need to be able to react to people who do

699
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.800
<v Speaker 1>bad things and with evidence, right, And the good news

700
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:01.079
<v Speaker 1>is is with crypto the evidence is there to see

701
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:03.559
<v Speaker 1>and if you do need to know who that person

702
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:06.960
<v Speaker 1>is for whatever reason, then the ZK technology does allow

703
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:11.000
<v Speaker 1>you in a very relatively safe way to figure all

704
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:13.679
<v Speaker 1>of that out. But my guess is is between the

705
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:19.519
<v Speaker 1>open source technology and yeah, the direction that this is

706
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:23.840
<v Speaker 1>going with people running AI on the local laptop, it's

707
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:27.920
<v Speaker 1>going to be very difficult to police this at global scale,

708
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:29.639
<v Speaker 1>and the things that they're doing in the short term,

709
00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:32.960
<v Speaker 1>like if you are developing code unfable now and you

710
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 1>ask it to do security checks on the code that

711
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.559
<v Speaker 1>you literally created for your application and you don't word

712
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:41.559
<v Speaker 1>that request correctly, now, it won't do it.

713
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:43.119
<v Speaker 2>Now.

714
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:45.880
<v Speaker 1>That's in my opinion, that's a bug because they didn't

715
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:48.239
<v Speaker 1>know how to fix what the government was trying to

716
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:50.039
<v Speaker 1>get them to do before, so they had no choice

717
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.039
<v Speaker 1>but to swing the pendulum too far the other way.

718
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:56.039
<v Speaker 1>But open source systems will be just as strong soon

719
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:58.199
<v Speaker 1>and the government won't be able to stop them, right,

720
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:00.800
<v Speaker 1>just like they couldn't stop PGP when I was a kid.

721
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:05.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, from basically allowing us to export strong encryption

722
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.280
<v Speaker 1>which they also used to write. Right, So so open

723
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.920
<v Speaker 1>source solve that problem too, you know. And and so

724
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:15.039
<v Speaker 1>I think that it's going to be a lesson on. Okay,

725
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:21.159
<v Speaker 1>are people fundamentally good? Can people with access to you know,

726
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:25.880
<v Speaker 1>godlike technology be fundamentally good? Or we just fundamentally bad?

727
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:26.639
<v Speaker 2>You know?

728
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.679
<v Speaker 1>And and there's enough bad apples that, you know, cause

729
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:32.480
<v Speaker 1>us to want to move towards some dystopian centralized control.

730
00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:35.639
<v Speaker 1>And I just don't think that's true. I I you know,

731
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:37.760
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's just a naive I don't know, but I

732
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:41.440
<v Speaker 1>just I just don't think that's true. And we'll see Bill.

733
00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Life tends to imitate art many times. I love. I'm

734
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:49.599
<v Speaker 2>a big Terminator movie fan. I've seen I robot. We're

735
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:52.119
<v Speaker 2>getting to a point where the AI becomes against so

736
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:58.880
<v Speaker 2>smart the IQ of these artificial intelligent beings so to speak,

737
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:04.239
<v Speaker 2>you want to call them, that their IQ's vastly outweighs

738
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:08.000
<v Speaker 2>the collective human IQ. And we have a Skynet moment.

739
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:13.559
<v Speaker 1>Well that's a different question. So I think we're at

740
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:17.679
<v Speaker 1>a point now. Look, the average the average human does

741
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:22.039
<v Speaker 1>not have a master's degree in anything. So the ai

742
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:26.880
<v Speaker 1>l ms now have master's degree level knowledge of pretty

743
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:32.199
<v Speaker 1>much every topic, okay, and so they don't have PhD

744
00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:36.320
<v Speaker 1>level abilities in every topic. The difference being a PhD

745
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:40.639
<v Speaker 1>can basically create something that didn't exist before with original thoughts.

746
00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:44.280
<v Speaker 1>It can simulate that pretty well in a lot of areas,

747
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:46.840
<v Speaker 1>like some math problems that have been solved, but the

748
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:50.280
<v Speaker 1>math problems that it's solving are basically using known techniques.

749
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.519
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that the ais are creating new techniques

750
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:57.079
<v Speaker 1>to solve, you know, what would be a PhD problem, right,

751
00:40:57.159 --> 00:41:00.440
<v Speaker 1>And so there's some conjectures that were solved recently Viams

752
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:03.239
<v Speaker 1>this spring that we're pretty mind blowing, but they were

753
00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:05.840
<v Speaker 1>using existing techniques that a master's student could even learn

754
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:09.559
<v Speaker 1>in that, right. So that's my understanding. So the next

755
00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:15.159
<v Speaker 1>evolution is will they basically be able to reason original

756
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:19.199
<v Speaker 1>thought the way a PhD would? And that's what ASI

757
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:20.840
<v Speaker 1>is to me, because when you can do that, you

758
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:24.639
<v Speaker 1>can the litmus tests. For me, and I disagree with

759
00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:26.880
<v Speaker 1>some of the current things that you know, the San

760
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:29.280
<v Speaker 1>Francisco what I call the San Francisco or Silicon Valley

761
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:31.880
<v Speaker 1>thinking of this, which is, you know, LLLMS will get

762
00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:34.119
<v Speaker 1>us to ASI. I don't believe that's the case. I

763
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:37.400
<v Speaker 1>think LLLMS will basically get us to the very limit

764
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:41.480
<v Speaker 1>of what a master's student who understands infinite existing knowledge

765
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:45.159
<v Speaker 1>can possibly have, can do, comprehend, or have. And then

766
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:46.880
<v Speaker 1>the next step is going to be how do we

767
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:53.079
<v Speaker 1>use those information sources to basically start creating feedback loops

768
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:55.599
<v Speaker 1>to create original knowledge. And you have to basically do

769
00:41:55.679 --> 00:42:00.480
<v Speaker 1>trillions of tests. But at some point what that does

770
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.920
<v Speaker 1>is it starts to recreate knowledge from first principles. In

771
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:09.079
<v Speaker 1>other words, you know the idea that you know, if

772
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.239
<v Speaker 1>you're on Earth and you push an object, you realize

773
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.559
<v Speaker 1>that e F equals M right force eqls mass times acceleration,

774
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:20.320
<v Speaker 1>But that becomes untrue at the speed of light, right,

775
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, I And but it will figure that out

776
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.280
<v Speaker 1>from testing in first principles as opposed to I read

777
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.000
<v Speaker 1>it in a book, I read it on Reddit, right.

778
00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:30.599
<v Speaker 1>And when it does that, and it learns at an

779
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:36.519
<v Speaker 1>accelerated rate, it will have godlike abilities, probably within months, right,

780
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:38.119
<v Speaker 1>because it will figure things out that we never even

781
00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:38.920
<v Speaker 1>thought of figuring out.

782
00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Right.

783
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:44.599
<v Speaker 1>So that's what I think is coming that people don't understand,

784
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.599
<v Speaker 1>not the increased abilities of the LPs. I think it's

785
00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:53.719
<v Speaker 1>the next phase that really becomes almost godlike in a way.

786
00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:57.119
<v Speaker 2>If you put it into a humanoid robot that can

787
00:42:57.159 --> 00:42:59.280
<v Speaker 2>actually do physical things, and to your point, it can

788
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:02.440
<v Speaker 2>learn the physics, law, physics and other things.

789
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I look at it more like you know, Okay,

790
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:08.000
<v Speaker 1>So you can look at it like the Terminator movies,

791
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:10.719
<v Speaker 1>or you can look at it like the Star Trek movies.

792
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:12.760
<v Speaker 1>And I tend to look at it more like the

793
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.360
<v Speaker 1>Star Trek movies because I think, I think Star Trek

794
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:17.760
<v Speaker 1>what was so interesting about it was it it captured

795
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:25.480
<v Speaker 1>the imagination of potential plus a viable future around technology

796
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:28.519
<v Speaker 1>potential not speaking about light travel, but but everything else

797
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:32.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think is totally viable.

798
00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:39.119
<v Speaker 2>It's a brave new world a bill, and I'm so curious.

799
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:42.199
<v Speaker 2>I almost want to freeze myself and wake up fifty

800
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:44.679
<v Speaker 2>years from now to see what it looks like. Yeah.

801
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.280
<v Speaker 1>Other than my my family, who I love dearly, I

802
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:51.280
<v Speaker 1>was definitely born too early. I do. It may not

803
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.239
<v Speaker 1>matter because we're about to basically solve the human hardware

804
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.840
<v Speaker 1>and software problems, So I guess it's so important.

805
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:00.599
<v Speaker 2>Sure, Like you upload your consciousness of AI version of

806
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:02.840
<v Speaker 2>you in a robot. I don't know where.

807
00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:05.239
<v Speaker 1>You just have interchangeable body parts, and you know it's

808
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:07.000
<v Speaker 1>the brain that they have to preserve, so in the

809
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:08.679
<v Speaker 1>nervous system, right wow.

810
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:11.159
<v Speaker 2>And then yeah, like the use stem cells to regenerate.

811
00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:14.519
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, there you go. I think it's coming.

812
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:16.480
<v Speaker 1>I think this is you know, I say this to

813
00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:20.880
<v Speaker 1>my kids all the time. Besides basically learning, which you

814
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:22.639
<v Speaker 1>should always be doing it, the other thing is that

815
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:24.679
<v Speaker 1>the single most important thing you can do for yourself

816
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:28.920
<v Speaker 1>is not die. Because we are so close to reaching

817
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:34.159
<v Speaker 1>escape velocity from a lifespan perspective, and and and you

818
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:37.559
<v Speaker 1>know that at that point again, all of these things

819
00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:41.360
<v Speaker 1>that we've taken for granted in terms of like centralized systems,

820
00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:45.679
<v Speaker 1>they all break down, right the way monetary systems come

821
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:49.159
<v Speaker 1>and go. And if people start living to one hundred

822
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.440
<v Speaker 1>and thirty or one hundred and forty, the cycle of

823
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:56.679
<v Speaker 1>empires doesn't work anymore, right, right, And everything lends itself

824
00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:01.679
<v Speaker 1>towards you know, trustless kind of what I call enlightened

825
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:08.039
<v Speaker 1>self interest systems. And even then the issue becomes well

826
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:11.360
<v Speaker 1>one of the great drivers for pushing society forward. Is

827
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:14.000
<v Speaker 1>this idea that we all share the same destination, which

828
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.440
<v Speaker 1>is the great and if we don't share that destination anymore,

829
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:21.159
<v Speaker 1>how does it change the psychology of of you know,

830
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:25.599
<v Speaker 1>enlightened self interest, which is basically what's the only method

831
00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:29.239
<v Speaker 1>of kind of self government or governance that's really proven

832
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:32.960
<v Speaker 1>over time to really push society forward in a positive way,

833
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.440
<v Speaker 1>which is why the American experiment has been largely successful.

834
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:38.800
<v Speaker 1>It's it's you know, it's what I call enlightened self

835
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:43.079
<v Speaker 1>self interest. But it also has partially been based upon

836
00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:46.000
<v Speaker 1>this idea that we do all share the same destination.

837
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:48.079
<v Speaker 2>Right, It's a motivator like I need to get this

838
00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:51.519
<v Speaker 2>done before this time period and which the average human

839
00:45:51.559 --> 00:45:53.159
<v Speaker 2>lives on what's seventy seven years old?

840
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:56.719
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I don't know, I don't

841
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:58.800
<v Speaker 1>know what's going to happen, but we're going to know

842
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:00.480
<v Speaker 1>a lot quicker than people think.

843
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely. I didn't want to ask you about prediction

844
00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.079
<v Speaker 2>markets this. Do you seem to be all the rage Bill?

845
00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:09.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm a big believer in the free market. You want

846
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:12.039
<v Speaker 2>to go, you know, to Vegas, bet on black or

847
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:15.280
<v Speaker 2>red on a roulette table, no problem, However, there's been

848
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.559
<v Speaker 2>a lot of controversy with insider trading in much more.

849
00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:19.880
<v Speaker 2>What are your thoughts on prediction markets in the future.

850
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:24.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean prediction markets are are a quagmuier because

851
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:29.440
<v Speaker 1>of that exact issue. I think. I think to a degree,

852
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:34.760
<v Speaker 1>if an outcome can be affected by somebody who's conflicted

853
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:37.440
<v Speaker 1>in terms of their access to a prediction market, you're

854
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:42.760
<v Speaker 1>crazy to participate. I mean, or you should basically understand.

855
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:47.400
<v Speaker 1>You know that, you know, you're participating in an outcome

856
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:52.599
<v Speaker 1>bet where somebody who is involved can influence the outcome

857
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:54.760
<v Speaker 1>in a way that's explicit to the you know, to

858
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:57.920
<v Speaker 1>the odds against the odds that you're participating in. I'm

859
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:00.960
<v Speaker 1>not saying that eloquently, but you get point right, And

860
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:06.000
<v Speaker 1>so on the one hand, people should understand that. On

861
00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:08.559
<v Speaker 1>the other hand, you know, you may say, well, okay,

862
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:10.639
<v Speaker 1>this is unethical and so the government should stop it.

863
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:15.760
<v Speaker 1>That's a very natural tendency for people now to say

864
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:20.480
<v Speaker 1>it's unethical, therefore the government should blah blah blah. We

865
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:24.039
<v Speaker 1>need to stop equating those things, in my opinion, as

866
00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:29.719
<v Speaker 1>a society and say, okay, carpetdium, yes, but buyer beware yes, okay,

867
00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:31.760
<v Speaker 1>So what does the buyer beware part of this? And

868
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:35.039
<v Speaker 1>why do I need the government to basically not do

869
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 1>keep me from doing stupid things? How about I just

870
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:38.400
<v Speaker 1>don't do stupid things?

871
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Right? And so.

872
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:44.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that prediction markets are a perfect example of

873
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:48.199
<v Speaker 1>have fun with it. There are probably good institutional use

874
00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:51.000
<v Speaker 1>cases like CFD markets internationally where you can do things

875
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:53.519
<v Speaker 1>like hedge. If you're a farmer, you can buy CfDS

876
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:55.760
<v Speaker 1>on the weather. For the Americans here don't know what

877
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:58.199
<v Speaker 1>a CFD is. A contract for difference. It basically allows

878
00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:02.159
<v Speaker 1>you to bet on an outcome where the relative value

879
00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:04.800
<v Speaker 1>of the outcome determines how much money you win. And

880
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:08.760
<v Speaker 1>those bets are basically, you know, very common in places

881
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:11.480
<v Speaker 1>like Europe or Asia. They don't exist in the US

882
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:14.360
<v Speaker 1>because it's considered gambling and which is illegal at the

883
00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:19.719
<v Speaker 1>federal level. So prediction markets put us closer to that model,

884
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:23.079
<v Speaker 1>which has institutional value. And I think that's a good thing,

885
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:26.920
<v Speaker 1>and I think it's interesting technology and it should exist

886
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:29.440
<v Speaker 1>and buyer beware and all that stuff. But yeah, the

887
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.960
<v Speaker 1>problem you highlight is like if, okay, so for example,

888
00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:37.599
<v Speaker 1>if I'm a public company and I go on CNBC,

889
00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:40.639
<v Speaker 1>and I know that there's a prediction market bet that

890
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:42.880
<v Speaker 1>Bill is going to say the we're bullshit on CNBC

891
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:48.079
<v Speaker 1>and the odds of that are ten percent. And I say, oh, well,

892
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:50.159
<v Speaker 1>wait a minute, I can go on CNBC say the

893
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:54.239
<v Speaker 1>warre bullshit legally and make a million dollars. Now, I

894
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:57.239
<v Speaker 1>don't think I should do that ethically, but it's not

895
00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:00.239
<v Speaker 1>against the law as far as I know, right, So,

896
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:03.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, you may get people who disagree with my ethics,

897
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:06.760
<v Speaker 1>because no one's bound to my ethics hopefully, And so

898
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:10.400
<v Speaker 1>how do you deal with that, right, Well, you deal

899
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:15.480
<v Speaker 1>with it with common sense, which is it unless you know,

900
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:17.280
<v Speaker 1>there's no way to hide the fact that this bet

901
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.599
<v Speaker 1>exists from Bill who's going on CNBC. Don't do it,

902
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:26.639
<v Speaker 1>don't make the bet. Right, So, you know, again, we

903
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:29.159
<v Speaker 1>were allowed to operate with common sense and we don't

904
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:32.440
<v Speaker 1>need to overregulate everything to the point of stupidity.

905
00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:36.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because then it becomes big brother, big government one

906
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:39.280
<v Speaker 2>hundred times worse. Right, they must police every single thing,

907
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.400
<v Speaker 2>Like no, we as humans have to have some decisions

908
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:46.239
<v Speaker 2>and you know, study and educate ourselves. We can't have

909
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:48.079
<v Speaker 2>the government babysitting us everywhere.

910
00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:53.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, personal agency is part of the enlightened self

911
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:59.119
<v Speaker 1>interest that has made the American experiment work and the

912
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:04.440
<v Speaker 1>idea of going from that to the socialism experiment which

913
00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:09.679
<v Speaker 1>has destroyed Venezuela, for example, and heark goes out to

914
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:11.920
<v Speaker 1>them with what they're going through with the airspick right now,

915
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:16.320
<v Speaker 1>which is not because obviously this discussion, but but you know,

916
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:20.039
<v Speaker 1>it just proves that there is a viable way to

917
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:22.239
<v Speaker 1>conduct the experiment, and in by a large has been

918
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:26.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, the first two d and twenty five years

919
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.440
<v Speaker 1>of the American experiment, with some you know, issues that

920
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:33.320
<v Speaker 1>we've created over the last twenty five but but you

921
00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:37.079
<v Speaker 1>know this, it's a very interesting case, this this prediction market,

922
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:43.239
<v Speaker 1>because it really it highlights the issues of agency and

923
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.960
<v Speaker 1>centralized government control in a very stark way because now

924
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:51.480
<v Speaker 1>you have states saying, well, wait a minute, this is

925
00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:56.840
<v Speaker 1>gambling which we regulate, and it's not you know, commodities

926
00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:01.079
<v Speaker 1>derivatives which you regulate, and the federal government is saying, no,

927
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:04.679
<v Speaker 1>these are a form of commodities derivatives which we regulate,

928
00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:06.079
<v Speaker 1>and they're going to.

929
00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Fight it out.

930
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:11.599
<v Speaker 1>But it's more, it's more existential than that around personal

931
00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:16.159
<v Speaker 1>agency and rights in my opinion. And and so that's

932
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:18.840
<v Speaker 1>why I think in many cases, the states are willing

933
00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:22.280
<v Speaker 1>to have these fights because they know that, right, you know,

934
00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:27.679
<v Speaker 1>especially the more kind of socialist, collectivist leaning parts of government,

935
00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:31.440
<v Speaker 1>are very afraid by what they're seeing with the prediction

936
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:35.320
<v Speaker 1>markets because they simply lose that potential for more control.

937
00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:39.039
<v Speaker 1>And I'm not I'm not opiing on whether that's good

938
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.760
<v Speaker 1>or bad. I'm just saying that that's the difference in perspectives.

939
00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:44.840
<v Speaker 1>And it is a it's a healthy debate to have.

940
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:47.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, I can give you my opinion, nobody cares,

941
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:49.760
<v Speaker 1>but but you can probably guess what my opinion is.

942
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:52.719
<v Speaker 1>But but you know, we need to I guess we

943
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.440
<v Speaker 1>need to have the debate. And and but it does

944
00:51:55.559 --> 00:52:01.400
<v Speaker 1>highlight this idea of personal agency versus you know, some

945
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:08.400
<v Speaker 1>growing centralized modeled with the control over, you know, over

946
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:11.679
<v Speaker 1>every aspect of society. And some people that I know,

947
00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:14.840
<v Speaker 1>and even my friends, believe that we need that in

948
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:18.440
<v Speaker 1>order to survive in this age of you know, growing

949
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:23.920
<v Speaker 1>wealth disparity and technological singularity that's coming. And when I

950
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:26.880
<v Speaker 1>explained to them, well, it's the big government that created

951
00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:29.320
<v Speaker 1>that divide in the first place. You've just been sold

952
00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:31.440
<v Speaker 1>a bag of goods to say no, it's big companies

953
00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:35.079
<v Speaker 1>that have created that divide. Big companies didn't print, you know,

954
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:40.400
<v Speaker 1>thirty seven trillion dollars in debt, right, and so they

955
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:45.239
<v Speaker 1>just took advantage of them that was already set up.

956
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:45.440
<v Speaker 2>You know.

957
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:49.440
<v Speaker 1>So it's a very interesting fight that's coming.

958
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:52.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And I look at prediction markets too as like

959
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:55.639
<v Speaker 2>a great you alluded to it, a source of truth.

960
00:52:56.360 --> 00:52:58.559
<v Speaker 2>Is it perfect? Of course not? You know, do I

961
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.000
<v Speaker 2>trust everything with one hundred percent? Of course not. But

962
00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:04.719
<v Speaker 2>I can go there, Bill and versus the narrative that

963
00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the government tell me or mainstream media is telling me

964
00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:10.440
<v Speaker 2>and say, wait a minute, is that actually real or

965
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:13.360
<v Speaker 2>is that just a narrative of your yeah so thought experiment.

966
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.400
<v Speaker 1>Right. So, so if you remember the first election Trump Hillary,

967
00:53:18.039 --> 00:53:19.920
<v Speaker 1>I think the New York Times like a couple of

968
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.400
<v Speaker 1>weeks before the election gave her like a close to

969
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:24.719
<v Speaker 1>a ninety percent chance of winning or high eighties or

970
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:28.119
<v Speaker 1>something like that. And obviously she lost. And so I'm

971
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:32.400
<v Speaker 1>wondering what the prediction markets would have said at exactly

972
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:36.800
<v Speaker 1>the same time if they had existed then. And I

973
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:39.039
<v Speaker 1>don't know the answer to that. I'm guessing it wouldn't

974
00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:43.320
<v Speaker 1>have said eighty percent chance of Hillary winning, and so

975
00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:47.000
<v Speaker 1>now would it have said, you know, fifty eight percent

976
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:49.360
<v Speaker 1>chance of Trump winning, for example, I don't know, but

977
00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:51.519
<v Speaker 1>that's probably what it should have said. If it's if

978
00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:54.280
<v Speaker 1>it's giving you the source of truth that you're implying

979
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:59.559
<v Speaker 1>in your comments, and it leads me to believe we

980
00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:02.159
<v Speaker 1>might have at a you know, a very different set

981
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:05.920
<v Speaker 1>of talking heads in the media who were you know,

982
00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:11.760
<v Speaker 1>basically calling bs on the pollsters at the time, who conflate,

983
00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:15.360
<v Speaker 1>They were flat outlying. A lot of them conflate, you know,

984
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:18.880
<v Speaker 1>the national polls with electoral college polls, which often have

985
00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:23.239
<v Speaker 1>nothing to do with each other, right, And so I

986
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:25.800
<v Speaker 1>totally agree with you that as a source of truth.

987
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:29.519
<v Speaker 1>It's it's it's very interesting. And the more decentralized we

988
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:32.159
<v Speaker 1>can make those things the better.

989
00:54:33.159 --> 00:54:35.719
<v Speaker 2>And that's the ability to go back. And this is

990
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:38.840
<v Speaker 2>up your value because your pedigree, of course, in nature

991
00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:40.920
<v Speaker 2>of the Internet, the ethos of the Internet was to

992
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:42.960
<v Speaker 2>bring down the centralization and then you have these layers

993
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.119
<v Speaker 2>of blocking prediction markets. It's taking away power from these

994
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:50.760
<v Speaker 2>government constructs and the kings of the past and things

995
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:53.800
<v Speaker 2>like that where I'm not saying we one hundred percent

996
00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:56.559
<v Speaker 2>have control of the people that is, but we're getting

997
00:54:56.559 --> 00:54:57.559
<v Speaker 2>more back.

998
00:54:57.440 --> 00:55:01.719
<v Speaker 1>Maybeah yeah, Look the cipherpunk eth it was always very clear,

999
00:55:02.440 --> 00:55:05.840
<v Speaker 1>but ultimately for me what resonated was this idea of

1000
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:12.159
<v Speaker 1>personal agency online you know, free information, freedom of choice,

1001
00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:16.639
<v Speaker 1>freedom of access, and and you know that that is

1002
00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:21.000
<v Speaker 1>now you know, made its way into this new world

1003
00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:27.800
<v Speaker 1>of decentralized transaction processing and decentralized money. Uh. And I

1004
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:32.960
<v Speaker 1>just don't see how we can effectively build the future

1005
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:37.360
<v Speaker 1>we're building without that now. Yeah, just kind of full

1006
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:40.719
<v Speaker 1>circle back to the economic models for the space that

1007
00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:43.880
<v Speaker 1>we need because it's we we so desperately need this

1008
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:48.840
<v Speaker 1>decentralization technology as part of this future of the Internet,

1009
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:51.320
<v Speaker 1>which is, you know, the Internet of things, meaning whether

1010
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:55.800
<v Speaker 1>it's robots or nanobots which again injected or other ais,

1011
00:55:56.599 --> 00:55:59.519
<v Speaker 1>all of which are self aware and all of which

1012
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:00.920
<v Speaker 1>have to trans act in some way.

1013
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.280
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, Bill, I know we're coming up on time here.

1014
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.679
<v Speaker 2>Conversation's going great, but I don't want to be respectfully

1015
00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:10.599
<v Speaker 2>your time, and I did want to add Abra there's

1016
00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:12.800
<v Speaker 2>some major news items. So there was an integration with

1017
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:16.440
<v Speaker 2>the Threshold Network to bring TBTC to abra tell Us

1018
00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:17.800
<v Speaker 2>above them. Yeah.

1019
00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:21.599
<v Speaker 1>So you know, we have a brisk business in lending

1020
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:27.440
<v Speaker 1>against bitcoin, and we're always looking at the best ways

1021
00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:31.199
<v Speaker 1>to facilitate that for our clients, and we're a very

1022
00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:36.960
<v Speaker 1>large user of the myriad defied networks to facilitate access

1023
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:39.639
<v Speaker 1>to the capital on our client's behalf. As a as

1024
00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:42.199
<v Speaker 1>a fiduciary, we're always looking to do what's best for

1025
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:45.239
<v Speaker 1>them in terms of how they can borrow against their bitcoin.

1026
00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:47.519
<v Speaker 1>As I mentioned earlier, that's the killer use case still

1027
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:51.519
<v Speaker 1>for DeFi is borrowing against bitcoin. I think that's about

1028
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:55.519
<v Speaker 1>to what what it's done is it's proven that once

1029
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:58.400
<v Speaker 1>we have tokenied equities, it should be very easy to

1030
00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:01.880
<v Speaker 1>pump my Apple shares into ABBA and borrow against my

1031
00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:05.599
<v Speaker 1>Apple shares or my SpaceX or whatever. And so what

1032
00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:09.119
<v Speaker 1>with with because Ethereum doesn't know what bitcoin is, we

1033
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.679
<v Speaker 1>have to basically have an Ethereum token. And so for

1034
00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:14.840
<v Speaker 1>those of you who never used DeFi, what you're doing

1035
00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:17.480
<v Speaker 1>is is you're basically wrapping bitcoin to turn bitcoin in

1036
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:21.119
<v Speaker 1>stable coin. Right, still equal to one bitcoin, still equal

1037
00:57:21.159 --> 00:57:24.960
<v Speaker 1>to one bitcoin, but at bitcoin issued on the Ethereum network,

1038
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:28.639
<v Speaker 1>where the original Bitcoin is simply held in custody by

1039
00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:33.440
<v Speaker 1>like you know, a large custodian, and the largest issuer

1040
00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:37.400
<v Speaker 1>of this bitcoin stable coin, which we call rapped bitcoin,

1041
00:57:38.599 --> 00:57:42.280
<v Speaker 1>was formerly well still is. I think bitco and coin

1042
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.960
<v Speaker 1>base is now coming on strong with their c b BTC.

1043
00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:48.960
<v Speaker 1>We were originally the large user of w btc, and

1044
00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:53.639
<v Speaker 1>then the platform you just mentioned we've also started using.

1045
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:56.800
<v Speaker 1>And our goal is to basically give our clients choice

1046
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:59.000
<v Speaker 1>where they care. A lot of our clients don't even

1047
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:00.639
<v Speaker 1>understand what the hell we're talking about. They just want

1048
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:04.400
<v Speaker 1>to borrow against their bitcoin, and in some cases we're

1049
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:06.480
<v Speaker 1>making the choice for them, and as a produciary, we

1050
00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:10.000
<v Speaker 1>want to simply have as many viable options that are liquid,

1051
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:13.159
<v Speaker 1>easy to get in and out of, and technologically safe.

1052
00:58:13.679 --> 00:58:17.639
<v Speaker 1>Right because when you wrap bitcoin, you're actually centralizing the bitcoin,

1053
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:19.920
<v Speaker 1>but you're also centralizing it because you want to borrow

1054
00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:22.280
<v Speaker 1>against it, so you have to basically post the collateral obviously,

1055
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:25.159
<v Speaker 1>but all of this is technology risk, and we go

1056
00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:28.000
<v Speaker 1>very deep in terms of understanding that's how it works

1057
00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:30.960
<v Speaker 1>and making it very easy for our clients to ultimately

1058
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:34.480
<v Speaker 1>borrow against bitcoin earn yield on the bitcoin earn yield

1059
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:38.000
<v Speaker 1>on dollar stable coins, stake their ethereum, stake their salon.

1060
00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:40.920
<v Speaker 1>It's all related, right, and so this is yet another

1061
00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:44.039
<v Speaker 1>another tool in the toolbox for us to facilitate those

1062
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:45.719
<v Speaker 1>defive transactions for our clients.

1063
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:49.320
<v Speaker 2>And then also there was an expansion of the executive

1064
00:58:49.400 --> 00:58:52.360
<v Speaker 2>leadership team with four senior leadership appointments.

1065
00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:56.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're getting ready to go public and you know

1066
00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:01.239
<v Speaker 1>we're to get public market ready is no easy undertaking.

1067
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:05.360
<v Speaker 1>We announced our attentions to you know, go public via

1068
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:09.000
<v Speaker 1>a merger to spack opportunity back in I think it

1069
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:11.239
<v Speaker 1>was April and and we're down the path of doing

1070
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:13.760
<v Speaker 1>that and it's going, you know, pretty well. In my opinion,

1071
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:16.440
<v Speaker 1>I think the timing of the markets versus when we'll

1072
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:18.400
<v Speaker 1>get it done could be could be good. We'll see,

1073
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:21.880
<v Speaker 1>not my call. Regulators have a say in that. But yeah,

1074
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:25.559
<v Speaker 1>to do that, we've hired a new CFO, Jenny is fantastic,

1075
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:29.039
<v Speaker 1>comes from not only the alternative asset space, but you know,

1076
00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:31.920
<v Speaker 1>its former H and q H you know just you know,

1077
00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:35.280
<v Speaker 1>really made a big, big impact on the company. We

1078
00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:40.719
<v Speaker 1>just announced a new chief legal officer, Nicole also awesome.

1079
00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:43.280
<v Speaker 1>I think she was the first head of crypto legal

1080
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:47.639
<v Speaker 1>at at robin Hood and you know, just between just

1081
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:51.840
<v Speaker 1>sheer legal power, regulatory knowledge experience in crypto, great great

1082
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:55.880
<v Speaker 1>hire for us. You know, Dan Perry joined us from

1083
00:59:56.039 --> 01:00:00.639
<v Speaker 1>from a few different fintech organizations. He's going to run

1084
01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:02.960
<v Speaker 1>marketing growth for US globally and so you're going to

1085
01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:05.679
<v Speaker 1>really see abra out there a lot more now in

1086
01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:10.400
<v Speaker 1>the coming year. And Eddie Chung joined us as head

1087
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:13.679
<v Speaker 1>of corp dev and business Development, working on a lot

1088
01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:17.360
<v Speaker 1>of the partnerships for our new token issuance platform. So

1089
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:20.519
<v Speaker 1>USDAF is doing really well for us. It's a yield

1090
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:23.480
<v Speaker 1>bearing stable coin, which so in other words, you put

1091
01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:26.519
<v Speaker 1>circle in, you mint us DAF, you simply get more

1092
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:30.119
<v Speaker 1>circle out. And so you know that yield is you know,

1093
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:32.760
<v Speaker 1>more or less between like eight and twelve percent since

1094
01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:36.639
<v Speaker 1>we launched. And his goal is to facilitate distribution deals

1095
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:39.920
<v Speaker 1>for that you'll see you know, a BTCAF soon and

1096
01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:43.159
<v Speaker 1>then other Abrafi tokens that all generate yield on the

1097
01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:46.920
<v Speaker 1>original asset, and eventually I think you'll see even AF

1098
01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:49.280
<v Speaker 1>tokens on equities, so you can earn incremental yield on

1099
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:52.079
<v Speaker 1>your Apple shares. And you know, lend your Apple shares

1100
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:54.760
<v Speaker 1>into the networks and things like that, and so Eddie's

1101
01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:57.320
<v Speaker 1>facilitating that. So the exec team expansion for us has

1102
01:00:57.360 --> 01:00:59.840
<v Speaker 1>been awesome this year. You know, we didn't need a

1103
01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:01.840
<v Speaker 1>lot more energy in the company, but we got it anyway,

1104
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:05.159
<v Speaker 1>and so I'm really happy about that. It's been a

1105
01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:06.960
<v Speaker 1>great set of additions for the company.

1106
01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:09.920
<v Speaker 2>That's great, and congrats, and I'm looking forward to when

1107
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:12.760
<v Speaker 2>you go live on the NASNAC and hopefully I can

1108
01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:14.559
<v Speaker 2>maybe join you guys in New York if you have.

1109
01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Room, Yeah, come come help us. Ring the bell yeah, figures.

1110
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:20.960
<v Speaker 2>On the one. Well, build a couple oft wrap up

1111
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:23.679
<v Speaker 2>questions here before I let you go early bird or

1112
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:24.159
<v Speaker 2>night out.

1113
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:30.199
<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately both these days I see the bags here. So

1114
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:35.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean, historically the last few years, I'm an early riser,

1115
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:38.840
<v Speaker 1>and it just depends. I'm in a lot of time zones,

1116
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:40.840
<v Speaker 1>right so I'm in New York right now, but I

1117
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:43.199
<v Speaker 1>live and well, I go back and forth, being East

1118
01:01:43.199 --> 01:01:45.239
<v Speaker 1>to West coast different times of the year. This time

1119
01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:48.559
<v Speaker 1>of year, I'm usually in pale Alto, so so you know,

1120
01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:50.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm usually up by four am pala Alta time, but

1121
01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:52.880
<v Speaker 1>that's seven am here in New York, so I get

1122
01:01:52.920 --> 01:01:55.599
<v Speaker 1>screwed up. But generally I'm a very early riser. I

1123
01:01:55.639 --> 01:02:00.400
<v Speaker 1>do my meditation, my gym, my run, you know, some

1124
01:02:01.239 --> 01:02:03.440
<v Speaker 1>other time zone calls, and then you know, try to

1125
01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:07.719
<v Speaker 1>be in the office before before nine. But keep that

1126
01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:16.519
<v Speaker 1>early morning time for myself. Window seat are ile, Okay,

1127
01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:19.760
<v Speaker 1>So story, and I'll have to tell my friend to

1128
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.440
<v Speaker 1>listen to this. So one of my best friends, I

1129
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:24.800
<v Speaker 1>am not an ex. I would consider myself on like

1130
01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:28.039
<v Speaker 1>in the middle on the introvert extrovert scale. So I

1131
01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:30.800
<v Speaker 1>have a friend who is literally the most extroverted person

1132
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:34.039
<v Speaker 1>right now, is like my best friend, and he doesn't

1133
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:35.719
<v Speaker 1>do this anymore. But when we were kids and he

1134
01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:37.440
<v Speaker 1>would fly by kids, I mean, like you know, just

1135
01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:39.679
<v Speaker 1>starting in business, like he was like in his twenties whatever,

1136
01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:41.400
<v Speaker 1>and we would fly, he would ask for a middle

1137
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.000
<v Speaker 1>seat because he would literally have a chance of having

1138
01:02:44.119 --> 01:02:45.800
<v Speaker 1>someone to talk to. So you need to fix your

1139
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:48.639
<v Speaker 1>question because I can actually show you somebody who would

1140
01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:50.440
<v Speaker 1>have said, well, my preference used to be middle seat.

1141
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:53.159
<v Speaker 1>Now he doesn't do that anymore because he realized that's

1142
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:58.559
<v Speaker 1>certifiably insane. And so, but I generally ask for an

1143
01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:04.639
<v Speaker 1>aisle seat. These days, but you know, I don't care

1144
01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:07.880
<v Speaker 1>that much. I try to use miles to upgrade whenever

1145
01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:10.559
<v Speaker 1>I can, because I flush so much that it's it's

1146
01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:13.159
<v Speaker 1>pretty If the seats are available, I can usually upgrade

1147
01:03:13.159 --> 01:03:14.880
<v Speaker 1>pretty well out at that point it doesn't really matter.

1148
01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:19.480
<v Speaker 1>But my policy is is if I'm flat over like

1149
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:23.960
<v Speaker 1>five hours forever, then I in business. But under five

1150
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:28.480
<v Speaker 1>company pays for economy, and then I'll upgrade myself, which

1151
01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:30.440
<v Speaker 1>is pretty fair. And then you know, figure out the

1152
01:03:30.440 --> 01:03:32.320
<v Speaker 1>policy later for a big public company.

1153
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:35.639
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, sure, text, email or call.

1154
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:41.719
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, it depends who it is. My kids

1155
01:03:41.719 --> 01:03:43.480
<v Speaker 1>can do whatever they we My kids would never send

1156
01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:48.760
<v Speaker 1>an email, so whatever they want, and however or however

1157
01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:50.480
<v Speaker 1>I can find them because they are you know, in

1158
01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:56.360
<v Speaker 1>different parts of the country now. But for clients, it's

1159
01:03:56.360 --> 01:03:59.559
<v Speaker 1>whatever is convenient. There are legal issues I can't there

1160
01:03:59.559 --> 01:04:01.679
<v Speaker 1>are certain platforms I can't really use anymore as an

1161
01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:04.199
<v Speaker 1>r A. But other than that, it's whatever the clients

1162
01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:06.440
<v Speaker 1>really want if they have access to me. And a

1163
01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:09.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of our large clients do call me pretty regularly.

1164
01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1165
01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:13.000
<v Speaker 1>They like to text. Now people are you know, we

1166
01:04:13.119 --> 01:04:14.000
<v Speaker 1>use slack internally.

1167
01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1168
01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:18.960
<v Speaker 1>And and I I hate when people put slack threads

1169
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:23.360
<v Speaker 1>on an email because it's just it's just you lose

1170
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:27.000
<v Speaker 1>the ephemeral kind of real time nature of that communication.

1171
01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:33.400
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I'm evolved to hopefully use the right channel

1172
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:36.880
<v Speaker 1>for the right the right the right issue or the

1173
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:38.400
<v Speaker 1>right Yeah, the right channel for the right issue is

1174
01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:39.159
<v Speaker 1>probably the right way.

1175
01:04:39.079 --> 01:04:42.719
<v Speaker 2>To say it. What's one company outside of Crypto you admire?

1176
01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:51.639
<v Speaker 1>Hmmm? Who do I love? Wow, that's a great question.

1177
01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:53.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm I've always been an Apple fanboy, but

1178
01:04:54.119 --> 01:04:58.639
<v Speaker 1>that's too easy. You know, I'm a gadget guy. I've

1179
01:04:58.719 --> 01:05:01.199
<v Speaker 1>pretty enamored with these glass lately, Like I've been looking

1180
01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:04.400
<v Speaker 1>at the even Realities glasses. Those are super cool. I'm

1181
01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:06.159
<v Speaker 1>going to get those eventually. I was trying to figure

1182
01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:08.800
<v Speaker 1>out when the next ones are coming out. In general,

1183
01:05:08.800 --> 01:05:10.280
<v Speaker 1>if there's a gadget you don't know how to sell,

1184
01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:13.159
<v Speaker 1>you should usually just call me because I'll probably buy it.

1185
01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Although I think I've been semi cured because I've been

1186
01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:19.199
<v Speaker 1>doing less of that the last couple of years, probably

1187
01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:21.280
<v Speaker 1>because I just don't have enough time in the day

1188
01:05:21.320 --> 01:05:24.360
<v Speaker 1>to look at all this stuff. But I started learning

1189
01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:27.920
<v Speaker 1>how to play golf badly about a year ago. And

1190
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.519
<v Speaker 1>so I've become enamored with golf technology, probably more enamored

1191
01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:35.320
<v Speaker 1>with golf technology than I am playing golf. And because

1192
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:38.519
<v Speaker 1>it's such a big business, it's crazy, It's absolutely crazy.

1193
01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:43.400
<v Speaker 1>I had no idea how big the business of golf

1194
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:48.360
<v Speaker 1>technology was. Like these home setups where you can hit

1195
01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:51.599
<v Speaker 1>the ball into a screen and supposedly it works the same,

1196
01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:53.280
<v Speaker 1>like you can see the same shot as if you

1197
01:05:53.320 --> 01:05:56.719
<v Speaker 1>were outside, and I don't know. So so I'm enamored

1198
01:05:56.760 --> 01:05:59.920
<v Speaker 1>with some of that stuff right now. And I don't

1199
01:06:00.039 --> 01:06:01.400
<v Speaker 1>really have a lot of time to play golf. So

1200
01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:03.159
<v Speaker 1>I probably have been on a golf course in the

1201
01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:05.679
<v Speaker 1>last year four times. But I'll go to the driving

1202
01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:08.719
<v Speaker 1>range in Palo Alto, for example, you know, at seven

1203
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:11.480
<v Speaker 1>am some mornings, and just you know, worked out my

1204
01:06:11.559 --> 01:06:13.559
<v Speaker 1>frustrations on golf balls.

1205
01:06:13.679 --> 01:06:16.639
<v Speaker 2>And top golf. I don't know if you've been there, Yeah,

1206
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:16.920
<v Speaker 2>I have.

1207
01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:19.960
<v Speaker 1>There's one. There's one here. Were not here, but there's

1208
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:22.199
<v Speaker 1>one here in New York. There's one in Miami which

1209
01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:24.159
<v Speaker 1>I've used a few times, and there's one in San

1210
01:06:24.199 --> 01:06:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Jose which I've used with friends a few times. They're fun,

1211
01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:30.280
<v Speaker 1>and so you know, that's probably better for me because

1212
01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:32.960
<v Speaker 1>like my chances of hitting it straight at any given

1213
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:34.719
<v Speaker 1>time or pretty slim and none.

1214
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:37.760
<v Speaker 2>So for sure, if you could have dinner with any person,

1215
01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:38.840
<v Speaker 2>living or dead, who would it.

1216
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:45.280
<v Speaker 1>Be, Well if Einstein? For sure. I think that's interesting

1217
01:06:45.320 --> 01:06:48.280
<v Speaker 1>to be aout Einstein. And not only was he brilliant,

1218
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:52.440
<v Speaker 1>but he was, like I think, a great interesting person

1219
01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:53.639
<v Speaker 1>as a conversationalist.

1220
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:54.239
<v Speaker 2>You know.

1221
01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.800
<v Speaker 1>A lot of times you meet people and I haven't

1222
01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:00.400
<v Speaker 1>been in a position because I have a lot of

1223
01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:03.320
<v Speaker 1>famous clients, so I can't always talk about and and

1224
01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:05.599
<v Speaker 1>you get disappointed when you meet them in person because

1225
01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:09.079
<v Speaker 1>like they're just so good at what they do that

1226
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:12.440
<v Speaker 1>you don't think about the actual real person in real life.

1227
01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:17.800
<v Speaker 1>But the other one who I have had dinner with

1228
01:07:17.880 --> 01:07:21.199
<v Speaker 1>is Tony Robbins. He's unbelieved, you know, when you talk

1229
01:07:21.239 --> 01:07:24.199
<v Speaker 1>to him in person, he's exactly the same in person

1230
01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:27.440
<v Speaker 1>as he is on stage. And he has no off

1231
01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:30.119
<v Speaker 1>switch and and it's unbelievable at his age that what

1232
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:33.000
<v Speaker 1>he does. And I've learned a lot just from you know,

1233
01:07:33.039 --> 01:07:36.960
<v Speaker 1>he has this saying proximity is power, and and I'm

1234
01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:38.679
<v Speaker 1>not a student of his, I actually speak at some

1235
01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:42.079
<v Speaker 1>of his events. But but but he just has his

1236
01:07:42.239 --> 01:07:43.960
<v Speaker 1>energy that you can't help but absorb some of it

1237
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:49.480
<v Speaker 1>when you're around. So those would be you know and

1238
01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:51.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, you know else I'm a huge a fan

1239
01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:54.960
<v Speaker 1>of is Meryl Streep. I would love to meet Meryl Streep.

1240
01:07:55.599 --> 01:07:58.400
<v Speaker 1>And because I think man or a woman, she's the

1241
01:07:58.400 --> 01:08:00.920
<v Speaker 1>greatest living American actor we've ever had.

1242
01:08:01.559 --> 01:08:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Mhm. So on Tony Robbins, I listened to him maybe

1243
01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:08.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, three four times a week. He's part

1244
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:12.280
<v Speaker 2>of Wow You're in motivation. Yeah. I listened to him

1245
01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.719
<v Speaker 2>and some other folks. But I hope to meet Tony

1246
01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:17.479
<v Speaker 2>at in person at one point. He'saw on my list

1247
01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:20.439
<v Speaker 2>of people. To me, he's been impactful all my life,

1248
01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:23.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, like going healing from past trauma and all

1249
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:26.880
<v Speaker 2>those things and in good for you. Yeah yeah, yeah really.

1250
01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:30.439
<v Speaker 1>I I've gotten to know some of his He had

1251
01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:32.000
<v Speaker 1>a lot of high net worth clients who are also

1252
01:08:32.039 --> 01:08:35.439
<v Speaker 1>ABUR clients, and they've been very good, good to us,

1253
01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:38.319
<v Speaker 1>and and and it's very quite a group. I mean

1254
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:43.039
<v Speaker 1>talk about a lot of self motivated people. People have

1255
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:45.319
<v Speaker 1>it wrong in terms of like oh he's like he

1256
01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:50.039
<v Speaker 1>doesn't motivate people. He finds people that are already motivated

1257
01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:52.640
<v Speaker 1>and and the way I've seen it, like gives them

1258
01:08:52.680 --> 01:08:56.840
<v Speaker 1>practical tools. And you probably if based on what you

1259
01:08:56.880 --> 01:08:59.199
<v Speaker 1>say you're going through, I'm guessing you get that. And

1260
01:08:59.239 --> 01:09:01.399
<v Speaker 1>so I I didn't know that because I didn't have

1261
01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:03.840
<v Speaker 1>a lot of experience with him until the last five years.

1262
01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:06.119
<v Speaker 1>I knew obviously knew he was everybody knows who he is,

1263
01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:09.239
<v Speaker 1>But now that I've seen him in action, I'm like,

1264
01:09:09.239 --> 01:09:12.279
<v Speaker 1>whoa this guy is? Just he has so many tools

1265
01:09:12.279 --> 01:09:16.319
<v Speaker 1>in the shed. Yes, it's unbelievable. I've never seen I

1266
01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:18.560
<v Speaker 1>haven't seen a lot of his content, but what I

1267
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:20.560
<v Speaker 1>have seen, I've never seen a question where he didn't

1268
01:09:20.600 --> 01:09:22.039
<v Speaker 1>have some tool in the shed that he could bring

1269
01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:26.560
<v Speaker 1>the bear to enlighten someone as It's remarkable.

1270
01:09:26.840 --> 01:09:27.560
<v Speaker 2>It's incredible.

1271
01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:31.560
<v Speaker 1>As somebody who has to coach my execs or others

1272
01:09:31.640 --> 01:09:34.960
<v Speaker 1>on a pretty regular basis, you know, I'm striving now

1273
01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:37.439
<v Speaker 1>to have a fraction of that many tools in my shit.

1274
01:09:38.199 --> 01:09:42.239
<v Speaker 2>M Yeah, he's really great and we've been very helpful

1275
01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:44.199
<v Speaker 2>for me personally. So it's like all my list of

1276
01:09:44.439 --> 01:09:48.399
<v Speaker 2>things I listened to and just really great. Bill. I

1277
01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:50.720
<v Speaker 2>wish we had more time, but thank you so much.

1278
01:09:50.880 --> 01:09:53.680
<v Speaker 2>A great conversation and like I said, I'm looking forward

1279
01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:56.319
<v Speaker 2>to seeing abro Go public on the Nasdaq. Thank you

1280
01:09:56.399 --> 01:09:58.920
<v Speaker 2>so much for joining me. Always great to see you.

1281
01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:01.359
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me, Tony, Thank you so much for

1282
01:10:01.399 --> 01:10:04.359
<v Speaker 2>tuning in. Please hit the like button subscribe if you

1283
01:10:04.399 --> 01:10:07.119
<v Speaker 2>haven't as yet. If you're listening on a podcast platform

1284
01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:09.760
<v Speaker 2>such as Spotify or Apple, please follow and leave a

1285
01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:11.840
<v Speaker 2>five star rating. Thank you so much.