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Speaker 1: Welcome to The High Strangers Factor with the as you

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can probably guess, not Steve Ward, because I'm not Steve,

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but I'm sure you do recognize me as Andy Mercery's

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co host, And of course I had Susie with you

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tonight as well. And unfortunately Steve is not doing so well.

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He's come down with some dark, strange, mysterious illness stuff.

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You might get cold or flu or something, but in

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any case, he can't make it tonight. His voice has

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gone a bit cracky and he's being a bit rough.

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So tonight it is just myself and my co host,

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Susie Bestiel, and I think Susie I'm right in saying

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this is probably the first time we've done a show,

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this High Strangers Factor show for just the two us.

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That's all quite strange, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, we don't have Steve interfering, so we

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can cause a little bit of trouble. It should be

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a good time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we are sure talk calmly and succinctly and not

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have to worry about dead air, which he always worries about.

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It's a real shame because sometimes you have to pause

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and breathe a moment. But Steve likes to make sure

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everything's flowing, So if there is any dead air tonight,

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it' Steve's fault for not being here. So we'll pint out.

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Speaker 2: If he's been the one that has been keeping the

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dead air away or not.

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Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, well we kind of weren't too sure what

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we're going to talk about first, because it's all been

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a bit sort of last minute because they Steve's have

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to drop out, we weren't able to secure our guests.

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So tonight I'm afraid you're gonna have to put out

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of Susan and I just talking about various things and

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topics that interest us, and one particular one that we

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were talking about a little while ago that certainly interests me,

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and those who have been listening to show for a

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few years know full well I'm interested in this sort

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of topic, and that is witchcraft and the occult and

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magic and all those sort of strange, wonderful things. And

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I thought perhaps we could talk a bit tonight about

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possibly like different perspectives of witchcraft and magic that you

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have in the UK here compared to over there in America.

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So it's well, those topics that often grows comes up

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again it can cause a strong response in some people.

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Some people aren't happy we've been talking about such things

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instantly to be the work of the devil in the

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dark and sinister, mysterious and frightening and should be scared

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well as others might just say it more as a

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it's a folklore, a history or other still as a real,

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actual practice that has real world affects and results. So

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I think we should really still talk about those kinds

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of things. Well, what's your understanding of what witchcraft is

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over there? Well, not there in the world.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So actually that was going to be one of

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the questions they had for you, is how do you

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actually define witchcraft? I you know, it's New England. We

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had witch trials all over the place here, not just Salem,

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we had them in Connecticut too. That was all hogwash, obviously.

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I kind of look at witchcraft as kind of people

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getting back and reconnecting with the nature and more of

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the way maybe we used to live or we were

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intended to live, and kind of part of it would

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be like, you know, harnessing those energies we're always talking

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about that are just occurring in nature. But I think

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a lot of it is psychological too, and a way

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to focus your energy and kind of like self care

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almost yes, yeah, and for me too, Like everyone talks

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about focusing and intentions and things like that, I have

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a you know, a neurological difference that can make focusing

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on something hard or impossible. For I always say, I

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don't choose what I focus on. My brain does. My

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brain is its own entity. I'm not the one in charge.

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But a ritual or something like that that I have

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to actually do can help me focus my intentions on something.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's one certain element of working with more broader

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to magic would be that you are focusing your mind

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and often involves rituals which in themselves, because sometimes see

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a little absurd of it, strange, but are either to

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generally genuinely create the effect or they're almost like that.

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It's the role play you play in. You're part of

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what you're trying to create. That you have to do

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these rituals, even if in themselves it seemed ludicrous and meaningless,

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they generate some kind of connection. But maybe you're quite right.

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With Witchcraft itself as a practice has been around for

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a very very long time, and it often was a

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way of trying to control nature or try to work

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with nature. You know how you want to perceive it.

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You know, a lot of I mean, modern medicines come

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out of a lot of it's come out of herbs

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that people worked with, which we have been herbcraft has

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been part of the witchcraft, gathering the herbs and preparing

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various treatments for illnesses, and often those as you mentioned,

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the witchcraft trials. Often those kind of trials and suggestions

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of dark deeds. I begin with someone just trying to

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cure illness, trying to help a sick child or a

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sick animal, even just to make it better, using basically

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medical knowledge that they might have had from certain herbs

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and plants. But others in the village of the other

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locals might have no idea of how you've done that.

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You know what this plant has done, How does that

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possibly work? It must be something more to it. So

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the witchcraft itself kind of develops as a way also

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of working with more general medicine, but also became the

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person you can turn to for help if there is

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a problem, because there was no medical people around, and

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even into that the Victorian times there was obviously doctors,

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but you couldn't afford see a doctor, so you'd have

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to go and see the local magic person, a cunning

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woman or the cunning man, or the witch or whatever

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t you want to use, to see if they can

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help with that. But it was sometimes seen the other

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way around as well, that if you perhaps cross this person,

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then they would do bad things to you with using witchcraft,

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using their magical skills, if it became afraid of it

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as well, that it was some kind of apt to

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be automatically the work of the devil. Although again it's

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that's a very much kind of modern thinking that witchcraft

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is eel and it's black and sinister. It wasn't that

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unusual in the say again the Victorian times over here,

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that someone could be practicing witchcraft maybe on a Sunday evening,

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by having into church on Sunday morning. But they had

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what used to call the dual observance, this idea that

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you could be both a Christian in quotation mark, because

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obviously Christianity itself would be against use of witchcraft, but

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at the same time using those skills to help and

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heal rather than doing things dark or sinister. But the

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idea again, as I said, that you could perhaps cross

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that person that they would then react negatively and cast

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a spell upon you became a fear, became a worried.

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So if it would look for other people who would

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perhaps be able to help them deal with that kind

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of thing, So you might get this kind of division

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between black and white witchcraft, which again is a modern thing,

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but the idea your turn to one which to combat

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or fight the other, which that would happen. That would

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be the case. And often sometimes someone was trying to

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push themselves as being the person who could help you

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deal with black magic, would then find black magic for

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you to have to deal with, so they kind of

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self fulfilling and self feilling prophecy of this bad things

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are happening, therefore you need my help to fix them

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for you. So people like cunning men particularly would be

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the person you'd turn to because of a witch Often

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the woman had done a bad spell against you. It

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could just be maybe your cross weren't growing very well.

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That the way they had minister good, But you want

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to find not only a reason for them being there,

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but also a way to combat something you couldn't control.

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So witchcraft would be seen as the way in which

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you dealt with that, whether which to fight against the

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negative stuff or to try and build the crops up again.

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So it was a lot of that kind of thing

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would go on. I mean, in a book I wrote

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for years back, which you surely cave, which is a

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collection of witchcraft tales, they are on spells. I should say,

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that's what I found. There were lots of examples where

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folklore examples where things had gone wrong or gone bad,

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and they'd even blamed the woman in the village. At

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the end of the village. She was they thought was

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a bit strangers to say she was a witch and

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she'd cause the problems, the mischief or alternally they turned

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to her for help dealing with whatever might happen with

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the weather was bad, or crops for failing, all those

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kinds of things, you know. I mean, the thing that

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I found interesting in those focal of books, I've got

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the number of cases where the terms of the witch

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for things like finding who the next love was going

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to be, who they're going to marry, those kinds of things,

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because it's imponderable and you want to know that things

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are going to be okay. So often they look for

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love spells and that kind of thing, but again a

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lot of it was to do with herbs and healing

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of ill animals and people, so there was an awful

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that was going on as well. So the witchcraft is

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in effect, you attempting to alter things around you, alter

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the world to try and make it better for you,

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try to work with forces of nature, but in a

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way that was beyond just observing nature, trying to tap

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into it. If you like, control these things to try

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and make life better for yourself and those around you.

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Speaker 2: I think that the control aspect of it is why

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a lot of preteen and teenage girls maybe boys to

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get into it. But you that's definitely a part of

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your life where you feel like you're lacking control. Yes,

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you know your parents are in charge. You can't do

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it what you want to do. You feel like you're grown,

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but you can't act grown yet. And you see like

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a lot of you know, eighth grade girls, it was.

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It was seventh eighth grade for us. That was when

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the craft had just come out too, so it was

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real popular and I was that age. But you see

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it too. I see it with my nieces. It's all

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around that age.

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Speaker 1: That's it. Those kind of influences that the opportunity to

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we kind of begin to realize that the world is

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bigger than you are, that there's more go on you

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don't control when you feel almost lost in it, and

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if there's an opportunity or a way in which you can,

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as you say, can control what's happening around you, then

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you'll turn to it. I mean a lot of people

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probably are drawn to things like that, or for the

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Vampire Slader, for example, when I was younger, were on

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TV that kind of use of magical witchcraft. You think, oh, yeah,

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if I can master those powers myself, then I can

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cause these things to happen. Well, it doesn't work like that, unfortunately.

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It's far more subtle. You don't get like your bo's

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going out your hands, you thing like that. But you can,

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through experimentation, cause certain effects to occur and go on.

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Various stories about things that I've experienced or worked with

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years are left me convinced that there's something to this.

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Absolutely so I've talked about it on many occasions, get

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rid of neighbors that didn't get on with very well.

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But you can cause those effects. And one of the

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things I think is interesting is there are different forms

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of witchcraft. We always tend to think of like there's

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one big cover autom of witchcraft, and as if it's

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like one harmonious practice. It's certainly not. There are various

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different versions around, and perhaps that's something we could really

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talk about, is the idea of how witchcraft itself is

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perceived based on the various forms you might see around.

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But that I mean, the most recognized, most commonly seen

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version of witchcraft is of course Wicker, which has become

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pretty much a religion now. It's become a c setain

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established over here as a religion because enough people put

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Wicker on the last census for which ween recognized for

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me as a religion in the UK. I don't know

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if that's true of America, but certainly he is here.

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Speaker 2: I think it's fallen out of favor in America. It

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was popular, i'd say, up until the early two thousands,

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and I have some grapes with it myself. Okay, in

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a it's so. I think that the law of three

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where if you do something bad, it comes back to

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you threefold, was kind of his attempt to like rebrand,

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which often make it not scary. Yeah, So that thing

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that you were talking about, earlier where if you upset

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the medicine woman and then bad things start happening to you,

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Wicka is like, oh no, we don't do that because

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it'll come back to us by three. And it's a

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nature based religion.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Nature isn't all good. Yes, so a nature based religion

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isn't going to be either. And it's also kind of

241
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bs to me. You know, if someone assaults you and

242
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you want to cast some kind of spell on them,

243
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why is that bad?

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Speaker 1: Yes, which is a question of what is I mean,

245
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the rule of three itself. I'm not even sure if

246
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it comes from God. And we talked about Garden and

247
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met Becos the founder Wicked whether it was he who

248
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added that later on, But yeah, it's in the way

249
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that that's one way of try and stop doing too

250
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maliferous or anything too dark sinister. But you know, if

251
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you want to use magic to have an effect against

252
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someone who's wronged you, well there is always what we

253
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call karma can come into that as well, so you

254
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can have that. I mean you could say that the

255
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Royal physicxasi of the idea of karmat this in this

256
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notion of what you go out comes back to you

257
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in something or other. I don't know. I mean, I

258
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can't say anything particularly militias against any but other than

259
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getting rid of neighbors who are blood irritating. Beyond that,

260
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I mean, with some ill will just to go the

261
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hell away and say that worked. But just sort of

262
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coming back to the idea of Wicker itself, and it's

263
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found in its origins. As you may well know, it's

264
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called Joel Gardner is the founder of Wicker, who wanted

265
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to have us all believe that he was an ancient

266
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practice that had gone off for generations going back in

267
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the lists of time. But aunfortunately it's not true at all.

268
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It is a modern what I was saying modern, it's

269
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nineteen fifties now, so it's still quite a while ago now,

270
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but it is a relatively modern invention of the primary

271
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dual gardener, who claimed to have been involved in a

272
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covent in New England forest which for the new forest

273
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in England, under the tutors of one called Drive the Clutterbuck,

274
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who's supposed to have taught him the ways of their

275
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clan if you like their magic, which he labeled it

276
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as Wicker. Though it's much older than Wicker, it's not

277
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a modern the terms of one convention. It's just that

278
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he used that particular name for what they were supposed

279
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to be doing. But there's no relevance for every existing

280
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it's been people tried to find her or suggests who

281
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she may be that Dorothy Cutterbucks studed in for somebody else.

282
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But there are a couple of possible examples where he

283
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may have been involved in a group. Certainly, he seems

284
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to have been involved at some point in a group

285
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called the Golden Dawn which are a ceremonial magical organization

286
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that began in the eighteen eighties in London. So he

287
00:14:51,399 --> 00:14:54,000
may have been involved or had connections with the Golden dawnings.

288
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It's some of the suppose wicked rituals. There are elements

289
00:14:57,759 --> 00:15:01,200
that are similar to Golden dor material, but it's changing

290
00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:04,879
enough to say it's his own. But it is a

291
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fantasy to say it's anything other than modern invention. I mean,

292
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the idea that it was older really comes from one

293
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called Margaret Murray, the wrote a book in Well. She

294
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she wrote an article for the Folklore Society of magazine

295
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about basically the idea of this hidden witch culture in

296
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Europe of Western Europe, that spread what far and wire

297
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huge culture of witchcraft. She then went from that to

298
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write the book on this on the topic now it's fantasy,

299
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really is I mean, even soon after you wrote it,

300
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people started to question the sources. Margaret Murray, Doctor Margaret

301
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Murray was a well respected to Ecutologist's written about Egypt,

302
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so she had some credibility certainly, But this particular area

303
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,159
it was it was interesting, but only as a kind

304
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of story, as a myth. I say, soon after you

305
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,960
wrote it was it was being taken apart, and over

306
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,399
years have become more and more clear that is based

307
00:15:56,399 --> 00:16:00,840
on nothing. Really. It's an interesting book to and it

308
00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:03,519
does come across as quite convincing that this history of

309
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:07,120
witchcraft is very big and very real, is covened. But

310
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when you look at the Folklot Society, their own publications

311
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which I've got quite a few from the eighteen hundreds,

312
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which I say they're the publishers who published her original article,

313
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,159
there's no evidence of covenant at all. There are lots

314
00:16:20,159 --> 00:16:24,200
of loan individuals practicing witchcraft, as I mentioned earlier, but

315
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,720
no obvious coven running anywhere in the UK. I mean,

316
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these people went far and wide to excuse me to

317
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,440
interview the people. They're saying. The Victorian Agent and these

318
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,240
books first came out, people had freedom to do this

319
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,480
kind of research themselves. So they go out in the

320
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,240
middle classes, go out and question these sort of the

321
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,519
local yocals in the village about the village's life and

322
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what was going on. And often so they talk about

323
00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:49,639
these witchcraft experiences where they were trying to get help

324
00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:52,000
or aid from a witch to fixed crops and that

325
00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:54,240
sort of thing. But it was always a lone individual.

326
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,320
There was never a group ever discussed. So I mean,

327
00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,519
it may be that they completely missed all the groups

328
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and not one of them, you know, came forward, or

329
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they didn't exist at all. There are some societies which

330
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,920
have witchcraft links. Perhaps the best known of all would

331
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be the Horseman's Word, which is again a group of

332
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,279
ply men and pro but worked with horses, and there

333
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,319
was a they had, like Quasio Masonic rituals all of

334
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,759
their own which involved in blindfolds and all those sorts

335
00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:24,039
of things, so there was something going on there. They

336
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,440
used to use what's called toad magic, which you can

337
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,359
go the whole details. It would involve the views of

338
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,200
a particular toad bone which was said, once you have

339
00:17:31,279 --> 00:17:33,160
the right bone, it has power of the horses to

340
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,480
control them. That sounds pretty dark, but it was the idea,

341
00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:40,960
and the Tobin ritual itself has been reignited, not in

342
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,079
more recent times, is becoming as part of a bigger

343
00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:45,799
picture of other forms of witch golf, which we'll come

344
00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:48,039
back to later. But so there are elements of it

345
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,359
still floating around that are still used. But the idea

346
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,559
of is big, mass organized hidden witch cult around the

347
00:17:54,559 --> 00:17:57,319
world up around Europe should say there's just no evident

348
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,839
for it. But because that was out there, I think

349
00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:05,400
Gardener kind of borrowed that idea that it wanted to

350
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,279
be something that was old and had been around for

351
00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:09,559
a long time. It's a funny thing in the occult wort.

352
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,519
Generally you tend to find people always want to find

353
00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:14,119
antecedents for their ideas. I want to find a big

354
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,160
backstory about hundreds of years of being secret practices that

355
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,680
no one knew about that were kept secrets. I mean,

356
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,559
I mentioned the Golden Dawn earlier on. This is the

357
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,200
organization from the eighteen eighties that really brought the occult

358
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,720
back into the public domain. I for like put back

359
00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:31,279
to the public. They were made up of mainly Freemasons

360
00:18:31,319 --> 00:18:33,680
and people of that sort of sort of middling high

361
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,480
society people. They too had a backstory of where their

362
00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:41,240
rituals came from. In story, a book was purchased in

363
00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:44,400
Portabello Road market in London, which is famous for second

364
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,480
hand book stores and antiques that sort of thing. And

365
00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:51,880
in the back of this book about German restitutions excuse me,

366
00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:55,640
they found series of ciphers that were written in a

367
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,599
special code which were the basics of various rituals where

368
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,240
Goop called the Gutta Dameron something like that is a

369
00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:07,240
German organization that these notes belonged to them. That was

370
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,319
again a society been around for a long time in Germany,

371
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,240
and they found these notes and wanted to use them

372
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,160
to form their own society of Golden Dawn. They wrote

373
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,640
to Fuen Sprangler, who was the woman who's supposed to

374
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,880
have written these ciphers, and she gave them permission to

375
00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:25,640
use them, but they said never contact me again, then

376
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,839
disappeared again. Like Gardener story completely made up. The whole

377
00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:33,559
thing was a complete nonsense. They were brand new rituals.

378
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,519
There's someone that were borrowed from rescution ideas. But they

379
00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:39,920
were written by various people, including the formers, the founders

380
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,640
of the Golden Dawn. They wrote some of them together,

381
00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:50,559
Samuel Roger Maths, William Woodman, and Winning when Westcott brains

382
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,720
blank names, but they were the three founders of the

383
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,599
Golden Dorn, plus the chapter called Frederick Hopley, who sadly

384
00:19:56,599 --> 00:19:59,240
passed away just as a group was. The organisms being

385
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,839
founded are almost certainly the authors of all the Golden

386
00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:04,400
Doll material. Now, the reason why I mentioned that Golden dorms,

387
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,759
I say, going back to Joe Gardner, he was probably

388
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:09,119
involved with the Golden Doll and certainly had access to

389
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,519
some of the information, and he used some of that

390
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,200
to create the Wicked movement. But there are other elements

391
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,039
of Wicked that are quite fascinated that he very much

392
00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:20,640
put in his own ideas into, including the fact everyone

393
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,920
had to be skyclaid most of the time. Are you naked?

394
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,240
They seemed to be that guard himself. As a natress,

395
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,359
he was very fond of sort of being naked in

396
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,799
the outdoors and brought that into Wicker. Now, most wickeds

397
00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:34,880
I don't think she practiced that anymore, doing naked rituals

398
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,200
outside him or maybe some doing, but most probably don't

399
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,920
do that. But for him that was an important part

400
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,680
of this getting back to nature that we talked about

401
00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:44,640
this before that you were skycad what one with nature,

402
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,960
which okay, fine if you want to do that, but

403
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,079
I think a lot of people were not that comfortable

404
00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:52,759
with the idea with all these elements. Again, there was

405
00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:55,079
the idea of your work, were able to cast spells,

406
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,680
would read terror, all part of that kind of thing.

407
00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:01,000
But as I say, it became much more formulated, became

408
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,480
much more dogma base as a religion, which put some

409
00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:08,839
people off. You know. The idea of this is, I

410
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,480
don't want it. Magic should be a practice. It should

411
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,759
be something you do, not something you just have faith

412
00:21:13,799 --> 00:21:16,400
in belief in. I mean you have belief in faith obviously,

413
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,279
but it's a practical thing, whereas religion is about faith

414
00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:21,799
and belief and sort of giving yourself to the faith,

415
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,920
to the religion or whatever it is. So I think

416
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,200
some people probably get put off now the idea has

417
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,519
become almost mainstream as a religion rather than an idea

418
00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:33,400
of a practice and something that would set you apart

419
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,680
from people on witchcraft, magic about taking a hidden path

420
00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:40,960
if you like, or the lonely roads are sometimes called,

421
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,000
where you are predominantly working on your own you don't

422
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,839
want to be part of a group construction. So that's

423
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,359
really the wicker element of witchcraft, how it's evolved, and

424
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,799
as you say, it comes to go to popularities, I say,

425
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:57,880
there have been a lot of many American writers really

426
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,680
have built up the the law of Wicker, if you like,

427
00:22:01,759 --> 00:22:04,640
have brought other ideas into it. Was the original ideas

428
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,160
are still very much abound in Gardener's books, which are

429
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,319
off the day and the media of witchcraft. If she

430
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,039
wrote early on, as I say, there's the kind of

431
00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:14,839
foundation books of Wicker, I mean'd be surprised. There's probably

432
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,680
quite a few probably never wrote those books, despite probably

433
00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:19,279
know the name Joe Garden, and we're going to say

434
00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:21,559
I've read these actual books, which is a shame because

435
00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:25,559
they are the real source material for what they're actually practicing. Yeah.

436
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 2: I remember an author named Silver Raven Wolf who was

437
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,920
real popular in the nineties who I'm not sure why

438
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,119
they have been deemed problematic now, but I think there

439
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:43,559
was some racism in there from what I understand, ah, right,

440
00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:48,079
which tends to be an issue in the US at

441
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:56,799
least is I think people and this this goes back

442
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:58,359
to what you were saying about it should be a

443
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:04,119
practice I don't think gets cookie cutter, and people seem

444
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,200
to just want to, like, you know, buy a package

445
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,000
set and expect it to work for them. So a

446
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,599
lot of times people are taking things from other cultures

447
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,759
and sometimes there's fine, and I think there is a

448
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:22,039
way to do that. But you know, as an example,

449
00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:29,319
voodoo is a lot of working with ancestors and calling

450
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,559
on these certain deities and it you know, if you

451
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,839
are not a descendant of a slave, you probably shouldn't

452
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:41,240
do that. May find something else. And it makes sense

453
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,319
that it would be more individualized because I might have

454
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,799
a better connection with plants and maybe I want to

455
00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:54,559
work with plants. It's one of my pet peeves. You see,

456
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,079
it's you generally women in my demographic doing it on

457
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,200
like TikTok or Facebook reels. But they'll be doing like

458
00:24:05,279 --> 00:24:09,640
a spell jar tutorial with all these herbs and I

459
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,279
can see clearly in the background they have a house

460
00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:17,960
plant that is near death. Yes, I am always thinking

461
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:23,000
to myself, why would those herbs want to lend you

462
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,160
their energy when you're killing their cousin. Yes, maybe do

463
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,000
a candle spell, you know, get some crystals or something.

464
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,480
Maybe plants aren't for you.

465
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: Yes, it is interesting. An awful of YouTube videos. I

466
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,440
find quite fascinating that. I mean, sometimes they're trying to

467
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,400
grow the craft, add more things into it, and sometimes

468
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,279
you think, well, there's other ways of doing that. They've

469
00:24:46,319 --> 00:24:47,759
been around for a lot longer. What you just do

470
00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:50,160
it the way that is available to you. But since,

471
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,920
as you mentioned, particularly about the race, because it is

472
00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:57,799
a factor, I don't I can honestly say I don't

473
00:24:58,039 --> 00:25:01,880
know a person who's not who's non white, shall we say,

474
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,880
that would call himself a witch. I don't know anybody,

475
00:25:05,039 --> 00:25:07,000
which is a real shame. There's no reason why I

476
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,000
should be. I mean, you could argue always ancestral this

477
00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:11,880
kind of stuff, but which just said Bologne, He's not

478
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,079
in such all at all. Now, wicker is a modern

479
00:25:14,599 --> 00:25:19,480
made up without that term. But there is a constructed religion,

480
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,680
if constructed belief system, constructed faith for everyone to put

481
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,880
it that anyone can really practice they want. There's no

482
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,799
reason why you can't. I also to say the other

483
00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:31,359
side of that, the vooda, the best voodoo practitioner I

484
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,039
know has been involved in it for thirty odd years

485
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,839
is as white as me. That was as bold as

486
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,640
me as well. But he really knows his stuff. And

487
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,559
he said the same thing, you know that he has

488
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,000
experienced some racism from other voodoo practitioners that he's met

489
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,240
in London. He's basically saying, you're not back, you shouldn't

490
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,039
be doing this. But why why should they have to

491
00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:52,960
be the case? You know, you do you can? He

492
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,400
would say, the ancestor spiritual worker with are ancestors of

493
00:25:56,519 --> 00:26:00,599
people as people's rather than individuals or particular culture, that

494
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,160
they can and will work for him with him, So

495
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,160
he has no issue with that. And again the guy

496
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,039
he kind of learned under learnt with it's also white.

497
00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:13,160
You know, it's not he has been actually there's a

498
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,720
correct term for it. When you go to haiti hat

499
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,160
and do the verse riches, you become part of the house.

500
00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:21,240
He's done that. This, my friend's friend has actually done

501
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:21,880
all that.

502
00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: I have heard about people being initiated into voodoo. Yeah, yeah,

503
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,359
I actually I had if this was probably was four

504
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,039
or five years ago at this point. I have a

505
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,799
plant called the Rosa Jericho it kind of looks like

506
00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:42,200
a tumbleweed, and then when you put it in water,

507
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:44,920
it turns green and it opens up again and it

508
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,640
can stay out of water for years at a time.

509
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:51,359
They live like eighty years. They're really cool plants. And

510
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:55,359
I had had a friend over and she looked at

511
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,359
the ball that I had it in and she said,

512
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,640
why do you have five pennies in there? And I said,

513
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,839
because that's what my grandma did, Like this was her plant.

514
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,599
I thought that like the copper and the pennies kept

515
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,559
like algae from growing in the water. So I never

516
00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:12,880
really thought about it. It was always five pennies. And

517
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:19,759
she says, that's a voodoo thing. My And so my

518
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:26,440
grandmother's father was adopted and we don't really know anything,

519
00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:31,519
but he was not white. R we don't so, but

520
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,119
you know, where did my grandma it was a coincidence

521
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,319
that she did this, or you know, get something from

522
00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:42,640
her father or you know where where did where did

523
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,319
grammy learn voodoo? So I was like trying to look into,

524
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,240
like what other traditions she had that might be related,

525
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,960
and no one would talk to me.

526
00:27:56,319 --> 00:27:58,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes try to get to the roots of your

527
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,799
own family's background can be quite frustrat to my Again,

528
00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:02,640
my friend of mine has just been sure he was

529
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,759
a book. As you know everyone knows about I run

530
00:28:05,799 --> 00:28:08,079
a publishing company now called Ninth Circle Press. The second

531
00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:10,839
book I published is his book on Essex witchcraft. They

532
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,799
say that's his other passion because he's from Essex and

533
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:15,079
those witchcraft. But that's a family thing for him, you know,

534
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,039
he's his whole family or on his mom's side. I

535
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:21,000
think has been involved in because there were called Romany

536
00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:24,599
gypsies over here, so that Romanies have very strong connections

537
00:28:24,599 --> 00:28:28,240
to magic. So he was writing about that. So he's

538
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:30,160
written three books, but the last two one was about

539
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,000
voodoo because of its experiences himself, and the other one

540
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:35,559
is about Essex witchcalt because that's the experiences of his family.

541
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,359
So those two come together. And again he's a good

542
00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:40,920
example of working more than one path if you like,

543
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,920
at the same time and having no problem or conflict

544
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,119
with the two paths. And as I said previously, these

545
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,079
this is why this gets down to the panel stuff

546
00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:50,160
we talked about before that the energies you're working with

547
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,599
performer called how you're working with them, so you do

548
00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:55,839
get those kinds of experiences. I mean I've worked with

549
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,559
and I go on the terminology bit later on more

550
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,039
call more high magic, ceremonial magic, but different paths. The

551
00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:04,000
ceremony magic from say, the Golden Dawn stuff, which is

552
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:07,680
traditional solomonic magic, and then a Knockian from John d.

553
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,799
Now they're fundamentally different systems, but they both work. You're

554
00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:14,680
talking with different deities, different terminology, different names, but they

555
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,079
both seem to have an effect, they seem to have

556
00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:19,480
a reality to them. So that brings you back to

557
00:29:19,519 --> 00:29:21,599
what was gonna say. Afterwards, we talked the first about

558
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,720
the idea of what Wicker kind of is that there

559
00:29:24,799 --> 00:29:28,920
is also reaction in a sense against Wicker with what

560
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,519
we call additional witchcraft, which is a different witchcraft path. Now,

561
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:39,400
whereas Gardener more or less created Wicker and others whom

562
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,359
men followed him who developed it further, traditional witchcraft is

563
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,680
actually more modern in terms of his existence. It's been

564
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:53,039
around less time, but it is more rooted in historic witchcraft.

565
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,759
A lot of it's based partly in the books that

566
00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:00,480
were talking about before the folklost society, books taining these

567
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,279
real world spells and how to use these things. But

568
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,519
also there are other writers like William Bottrell who wrote

569
00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:09,839
all extensively about witchcraft and magic in Cornwall, and that's

570
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,279
become the basis of what you're called a traditional witchcraft.

571
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,279
It's still a modern system, it's not a religious based one.

572
00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:20,079
It is much more of a practical path now, but

573
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,880
it's still a constructed version of witchcraft, but based in

574
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,920
more junior and historic material that is available. And it's

575
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,359
been kind of codified by a number of writers who've

576
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,400
created what we called modern traditional witchcraft. And there's a

577
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,920
chapter called Robert Cochran Old Roy Bauers as his real name,

578
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,240
was very much part of this founding of traditional witchcraft

579
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,200
in the nineteen sixties. He wrote quite a few, well

580
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,039
a few short books with hisself unfortunately passed away relatively young,

581
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:50,799
but his ideas became the foundation of a number of

582
00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:53,160
different paths that the tribe of tubal Kane, which is

583
00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:56,759
his organization was called, his group was called. There's one

584
00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:00,720
in an America called seventeen eighty six, seventeen thirty exact number,

585
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,279
but it's it's based on Cochrane like ideas that spread

586
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:06,640
out to America. So there's an additional path there as well.

587
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,160
So that's always like the second strand of witchcraft, the

588
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,839
more traditional witchcraft path, which again, as I say, is

589
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,400
still a construction, but it is more rooted in traditional

590
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:20,920
actual witchcraft practices and other major proponents. A good friend

591
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,799
of mine Jim mcarry, who's written a book of Tucial witchcraft,

592
00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:26,519
the Corinchbook of Ways, which has become very popular, and

593
00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:28,559
she's the co founder of Troy Books, which has become

594
00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:31,799
a very large publishing company that's good friends with, which

595
00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:33,599
is very helpful in my business because they helped me

596
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,200
get going. But she's one of the sort of leading

597
00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:38,519
lights in the modern times of traditional witchcraft in her

598
00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:42,599
writings as well. So it's say, it's been not being

599
00:31:42,599 --> 00:31:45,880
around as long and it's stayed more under the radar

600
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,279
than Wicker has. For definitely, you don't tend to get

601
00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:51,680
much of app on TV programs where you had more

602
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,000
of that sort of witchcraft, particularly the sort of eighties.

603
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,079
It was quite a thing to see on TV, which

604
00:31:56,119 --> 00:31:58,000
is being interviewed look at something scary and special.

605
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,119
Speaker 2: Ye, So what is your take on some of these

606
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,119
societies like the Golden Dawn and things like that as

607
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:09,400
opposed to like an individual practice. Do you think there

608
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,880
is merit to it or does it become just like

609
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,000
a popularity type thing or.

610
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Are you that would be yes and yes, there is

611
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,559
definitely something to the group men, the group of mind

612
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:29,359
working together. The I mean back to I say, the

613
00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:34,119
Golden Dawn being found in eighteen eighty eight. That sparked

614
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,319
off the interests more interesting magic. It almost disappeared before then.

615
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:41,400
It was something that was around obviously in the forty

616
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,640
fifteen sixteen hundreds. But then you have the Age of Enlightenment,

617
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:51,000
in which science and magic separated completely. Before then, astrology

618
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,559
look at the stars, astronomy looking at stars, and astrology

619
00:32:54,559 --> 00:32:56,440
but it's in your future were one thing. They were

620
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,039
tied together. There were two answered the same thing were

621
00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:01,599
the Age of Enlightenment. Astronomy carried on looking at starts.

622
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:04,000
Astrology fell apart. It just fell into disuse because it

623
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:07,240
was seen as I say, disused, disused by science, as

624
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:11,519
being compute, complete nonsense and fabrication and fantasy and things

625
00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:13,640
that Tara cards have been around since the thirty and

626
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,720
fourteen hundreds in various forms, but really formulated again in

627
00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:21,160
the eighteen hundreds. They too were just a fair ground thing,

628
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,680
but they became much more seen as more serious, more

629
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,200
part of magic with the advent of the Golden Dawn.

630
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,440
So they say you'd have this period were're all fallen apart,

631
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,839
very quiet, and then you have as they get into

632
00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:37,799
the Victorian times, people had more leisure time, more freedom

633
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,839
to do things. The short of working days of the

634
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,599
birth of the middle class. Both here in America or

635
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,240
around that kind of time frame, you have people with

636
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:49,079
a relatively good wealth, good amount of money. Still worked,

637
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,000
but they had more free time to do stuff and

638
00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:55,319
interesting things that magic and witchcraft would like, as I say,

639
00:33:56,039 --> 00:34:00,480
grew in those time frames. Still you have the country

640
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,000
folk magic, of which we've talk about before, that was

641
00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:05,079
always around. It was just in the background, done quiet

642
00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:08,000
in the rural villages, but in the bigger towns, the cidy.

643
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:11,440
You have this interest in first of all, spiritualism, contact

644
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,559
in the Dead, et cetera, which was very popularly eighteen

645
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,719
hundreds or mid eight hundreds onwards, as a growth out

646
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,199
of the Theosophical Society, which was the religions of the

647
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,400
East coming to the West. So it's all kind of

648
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,880
going all at the same times. You other things like

649
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,320
the Phisopical Society exploring sort of first Egypt and in

650
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,800
India looking for spiritual masters and leaders and that sort

651
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,559
of thing. And then that grew into, as I say,

652
00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:37,440
this interest in spiritualism, which then grew into influenced things

653
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,360
like freemasonry, all came in together. Where was freemason was

654
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,360
a kind of had religious elements to it. I'm sorry,

655
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,760
I had ritual elements to it. It was still seen

656
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,599
as a gentleman's club, nothing more. The people a fan

657
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:50,239
of the Golden Dorm wanted to take it a bit further,

658
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,639
wanted to make it also be something that was more

659
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,440
involving that you actually did some practical magic. You didn't

660
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,639
just sit around and discuss it and do almost meaningless rituals.

661
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,679
They actually did something that was practical, that actually had

662
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:07,519
an effect. And combining that with an interest in what's

663
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,679
called the Kabbala, which is Jewish criticism, which had again

664
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,000
been under the raid of around for centuries, these ideas

665
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:17,719
kind of combined together to form the Golden Down The

666
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,599
how Much Ordered Golden Dorn were all parts of this

667
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,840
elements brought in together by instead the three people mentioned earlier, McGregor, Mathas, Woodman,

668
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:30,599
and Win Westcott. They together created the rituals using rescution

669
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,719
material and built a organization together which because they became

670
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,239
the Golden Dawn, which was formed in London, but soon

671
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,320
had offshoots around the country and in fact the spread

672
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,360
around the world in some respectives a few in America,

673
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,880
in Australia, although there were autonomous groups, they weren't directly

674
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,639
run by the Golden Down. In the UK, they would

675
00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:48,480
sort of use the material as handed to them and

676
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,320
would build their own temples as they were called lodges,

677
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,039
and they would attract people from sort of middle class

678
00:35:56,639 --> 00:36:00,360
and wealthier people would get involved, sometimes that a hobby

679
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,480
is something interesting, but sometimes more seriously involved in hoping

680
00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:08,760
to create effects, having ritual magic, actually doing something higher.

681
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,639
Knowledge of secret well communicating with the secret chiefs was

682
00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:15,360
one of the ideas, These ideas of these spiritual beings

683
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,119
that were around us that you could communicate with, which

684
00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:20,039
again comes out of sort of the Indian mysticism. These

685
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:22,679
beings around us, which we talk about obviously in our

686
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,119
and all world, but they believe they were real, that

687
00:36:25,119 --> 00:36:28,039
they communicate with them, they had anc knowledge that could

688
00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:30,280
tap into. This was the idea of Golden Door magic

689
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,559
was working through these levels of the Kabara to get

690
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:34,840
to this high live with God and be attuned with

691
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,000
God's power. So they were important in terms of getting

692
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,920
an interest going. They'd use some of the material that

693
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,960
came from a rat called Relifles Levi in France. You've

694
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,039
been around it about twenty years before writing the History

695
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:50,719
of magic and transcendental magic and broad ideas for him

696
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,440
as well. So all these elements were coming in together

697
00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:57,679
to create the modern revival and modern in those times

698
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,599
revival of the occult and interest in magic. So they

699
00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:03,280
all played a partner. And this is what we call

700
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,960
high magic, ceremonial magic. That is the kind of things

701
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,639
that use the solomonic magic of the Book of Solomon,

702
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,199
the Greater and Less a Key of Solomon, all those

703
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,000
sorts of high rooting texts that have been around since

704
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,920
the Middle Ages and in one form or another, and

705
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,719
they were copied and we created and passed down sort

706
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,960
of hand to hand by hand. With the manuscripts, they

707
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,360
were the source of a lot of the other ideas.

708
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,400
That's sort of high ritual magic, which is what the

709
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,920
gold norm practice. And I say alongside that, you'd have

710
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:35,199
the folklore witchcraft of the country Bumpkin as low magic

711
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,480
the other side of it. Now let's say one's better

712
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:39,280
than the other. Just the term large it was used.

713
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,000
The low magic was seen as the risky stuff. High

714
00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:44,920
magic was ceremonial. That's perfectly fine. So you'd have those

715
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,280
cases where people in the village of because are being

716
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,400
witches and maybe you find themselves in big trouble. But

717
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,840
you'll put on trith witchcraft by the very people of

718
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,000
the judge who might have been involved in ceremonial magic,

719
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,960
if you like, and open practicing that kind of stuff

720
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,440
on the slide in the background. So there was a

721
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,840
bit of a snobbery, shall we save you into higher magic,

722
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,280
you would probably get away with it to not be

723
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,360
a chance of doing anything. But if you into working

724
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,679
with low magic, witchcraft and folklore, that you could be

725
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,079
in trouble. So you did have that kind of imbalance.

726
00:38:12,519 --> 00:38:14,840
And whereas you tend to find, as I said before,

727
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,679
witchcraft tend to be loan practitioners on their own. High

728
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,360
magic tended by its alls, but its nature tended to

729
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,639
be a group based thing. What the rituals were group based.

730
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:28,440
And you find both ideas run inside by saying and

731
00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:30,800
you get some writers who try to combine the two

732
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,079
in very ingenious ways, particularly a fan of called Alexander Sanders.

733
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,760
He's the former of again, what you might call Wicker

734
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,840
also had strong elements of Golden Dawn ritual magic in

735
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,000
it as well, so ammonium stuff. I said before, gard

736
00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:50,280
was influenced by the Golden Dawn stuff but didn't really

737
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,880
directly bring it into Wicker practice. But Sander's form of

738
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,760
magic of witchcraft very much did bring it in. So

739
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,440
he trying to try to middle poper between the two.

740
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,559
And I find that fascinating approach, and that's probably my

741
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,400
I wouldn't say necessarily Alexandria, which but I understand why

742
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,840
he did it, and I like what he did, the

743
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,119
way he's combined the two, and I nus some of

744
00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:13,159
his stuff myself. So you do find people do combine

745
00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:15,880
the two. Again, a lot of those are also covens

746
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,239
now as well. They say Wicking covens that you get

747
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,199
traditional witchcraft covens and Alexander's witchcraft covens, so you do

748
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,760
have them and the Solar practitioners with the Golden Horn stuff.

749
00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:29,679
The Golden Dorn itself as an organization fell apart in

750
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,159
the early nineteen hundreds. There was some infighting and arguing

751
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,159
between who was in charge, and it kind of fell apart,

752
00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:40,639
but the papers were out there because they got published. Now,

753
00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:42,480
the Golden Door material was supposed to be all secret

754
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,079
member to access it, and that was all kind of

755
00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:47,920
healthy in check, but no one thought to copyright it.

756
00:39:48,519 --> 00:39:50,800
No one thought that let's take ownership of these menus,

757
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,880
and one particular member of the Golden Dawn, towards the

758
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,360
end of its life, decided that I'm going to publish

759
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,880
it all in the magazine called The Equinox, which is

760
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,119
by Alista Crowley. So it the crowd is we have

761
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:02,840
to thank for the fact the Golden Nor material is

762
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,400
out there now readily available, because they actually went to

763
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,079
court because the Golden Dawn leadership tried to suit Crown

764
00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:10,719
for publishing their material, but they judge ruled that you

765
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,800
not copyrighted it, so he can publish it if you

766
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,440
could do about it. So it's thanks to him that

767
00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:18,199
the Golden Dor material became more readily available, and he's

768
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:20,280
still obviously in print now, it's been in print ever since,

769
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,519
so you do have there. There are good reasons to

770
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:26,679
work in a group, and good reason to work on

771
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,960
your own. It's really on those up to you don't

772
00:40:29,039 --> 00:40:31,719
have to be involved. I mean, in all my years

773
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,480
of being involved in the occult, I've only recently become

774
00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:36,199
involved in a group which I'm not going to say

775
00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:38,800
anything about, but if very very recently I've been invited

776
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,880
to get involved, and because I have a lot of

777
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,239
respect for that person, I definitely do want to get involved.

778
00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:48,199
But my previous occasions of meeting groups haven't been particularly impressive.

779
00:40:48,199 --> 00:40:51,119
When I first moved to London in the mid nineteen

780
00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:54,559
nineties university, when as a material student, I found a

781
00:40:54,599 --> 00:40:58,000
couple of organizations fac there were three, actually there were

782
00:40:58,039 --> 00:41:00,639
forced thinking about it, I actually met up with only

783
00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:03,119
two of them, and both of them were different high

784
00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:06,480
magic paths and neither particularly pressed by most of the worms.

785
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:09,639
One group worshiped there the person who was kind of

786
00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:11,079
the founder of their group, like it was some kind

787
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:12,360
of gold which bit over the top, and the other

788
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,719
one just want to go down the pub and drink basically,

789
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,159
so it was like, no, it's not really for me.

790
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,599
One was a runic basic group which was actually good.

791
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:23,079
Finally got involved for a while, but they disbanded soon afterwards.

792
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:24,679
This is a shame, and the other one never got

793
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,719
back to me even on contact them whither you supposed

794
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,239
sources or paths was to contact them. So my own

795
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,880
experience of working groups has been fairly negative up until

796
00:41:33,079 --> 00:41:37,559
very very recently. I haven't been to one group ritual. Recently.

797
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:40,800
It was quite invigorating. Actually, it really alive in me again,

798
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,000
which is very positive.

799
00:41:43,039 --> 00:41:48,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't I'm sure that it happens here, but

800
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,320
I don't know anyone involved in any kind of group

801
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:57,199
or coven, you know. I've heard people talk about covens,

802
00:41:57,199 --> 00:41:59,920
but it's really just like witchy women that get together

803
00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:04,719
every once in a while, you know. But I what

804
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,519
I'm noticing is in England there seems to be a

805
00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:12,079
lot more men involved in witchcraft than there are here.

806
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,559
I think of it as a very feminine thing. Or

807
00:42:18,079 --> 00:42:22,039
I do know some men, but they're all gay men. Yeah,

808
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,440
definitely that are involved in witchcraft. But in England it

809
00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:27,599
seems to be like a I don't want to say,

810
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:29,280
a manly man thing, but.

811
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there is I suppose there's

812
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,800
a strong tradition. What we call the cunning man is

813
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,840
how you don't tend to you do obviously get male witches,

814
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,239
but they the term cunning men tends to be more adopted.

815
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,079
One term that you don't hear, which really is understanding

816
00:42:47,079 --> 00:42:49,519
because it's a nonsense term is warlock. That's kind of

817
00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:52,760
a made up thing. It's a specifically a sort of

818
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,719
negative magical practition. So people don't call themselves that. But

819
00:42:58,119 --> 00:43:01,480
people I know are involved with men were probably for

820
00:43:01,519 --> 00:43:05,559
the cunning man term rather than the witch, because there

821
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:09,000
is Again it's just the way it works. I shouldn't

822
00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:13,480
drinkizy drinks from doing these interviews regions he shows it's

823
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,039
it tends to be more of a feminine term, a

824
00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:18,840
female term witch, but there's no reason we can't be

825
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,480
a male which at all. In fact, I say, people

826
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,119
I mentioned signs would have used the term witch, and

827
00:43:23,199 --> 00:43:24,639
it would have no problem with that at all. But

828
00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:27,880
cunning man has become a term that's useful because it

829
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,440
doesn't define any more specifically. You can be using other

830
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,880
different practices as well. But you know over here it's say,

831
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,199
I know people who definitely involved in covens, and I

832
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,519
know one particular one which there are American members on

833
00:43:39,519 --> 00:43:44,159
that se called the culture sebatitees almost legendary culture Sabatae now,

834
00:43:44,199 --> 00:43:46,800
but there's definitely practices over here which I met, and

835
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,519
I know the practices of the know the guy that

836
00:43:48,599 --> 00:43:51,440
runs the Sabatine in America, who actually runs a whole

837
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,880
thing overall, but he certainly charged to the American branch

838
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:55,719
of it, and I think he would call some witch

839
00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:58,639
saying that. I'm entirely sure, but I imagine he would do.

840
00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:02,559
But yeah, so there are are definite organizations, but more

841
00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:06,199
often it is tends to be solo practitioners who will

842
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,559
sometimes for whatever reason, you want to clean their parts.

843
00:44:08,599 --> 00:44:10,880
Something bigger that are part of a coven is in

844
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,880
it some kind of means. There's some dark siness to power,

845
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,840
like it's a mathia or something. I don't know, but

846
00:44:16,119 --> 00:44:17,800
people do tend to want to do that. But I

847
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,360
find solo practitions are almost more interesting because if they've

848
00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:24,559
forged in their own path, they won't necessarily follow work

849
00:44:24,679 --> 00:44:27,599
or a particular person. They can buy different ideas together.

850
00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:31,199
And often some of the books that I've purchased recently

851
00:44:31,199 --> 00:44:35,519
have been in particularly one person's loan practitional approach based

852
00:44:35,559 --> 00:44:38,519
in something that they've read that's old ongoing materia, not

853
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,320
just invented themselves, but they are creating their own version,

854
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,199
if you like, finding their own path within that. So

855
00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:48,000
I think I also wonder I think that we kind

856
00:44:48,039 --> 00:44:53,320
of talked about before that America and religion, Christianity particularly

857
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,559
obviously tend to play a much bigger part in day

858
00:44:55,599 --> 00:44:58,159
to day life in America that does over here. So

859
00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:01,039
there's a discomfort. I think there's the saying before you

860
00:45:01,079 --> 00:45:03,559
get this notion of someone calls a Christian witch, which

861
00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:06,800
kind of a contradiction in terms. As I said earlier on,

862
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,880
you can have the dual observance where you might practice

863
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,519
religion but you're a witch in the evening, but you

864
00:45:11,559 --> 00:45:13,880
don't try and combine them into one belief system. And

865
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,719
I find an odd idea because obviously which coin is

866
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,960
an affriaty Christianity, And there's those passions in the Bible

867
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,920
that condemn witches as being even should be burned at

868
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,280
the state, And it's literally in the Bible. You know,

869
00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:28,079
it's there a bitly in the Old test rather than you,

870
00:45:28,199 --> 00:45:30,920
but there's no there's no it's it's still seen as

871
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,760
something that you shouldn't be doing for you a Christian.

872
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,159
So I often find that interesting I think it's because

873
00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:37,679
it's harder to let go of Christian faith in America

874
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,000
is over here, because it is more interwoven into society.

875
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,559
Speaker 2: You're going to face a lot of difficulty if you're

876
00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:51,000
openly not Christian here, especially in certain areas. Even where

877
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,320
I am it's a little bit more progressive. But you know,

878
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,760
like at work functions when you know, people ask me

879
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,119
what I'm doing for Christmas and I say, I'm that Christian.

880
00:46:02,159 --> 00:46:11,559
I don't celebrate Christmas. You know what I's wide. You know,

881
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,320
it's not really something you can say. You could say,

882
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,440
oh no, I'm Jewish, I celebrate Hanikah, but you know,

883
00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:23,159
to not be like one of the few mainstream things.

884
00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:29,760
And there's still the stigma where if you excuse me,

885
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:35,599
if you are practicing any kind of occult anything, you're

886
00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:38,880
going to be accused of being a devil worshiper. Still.

887
00:46:39,519 --> 00:46:43,639
I mean, we can't hang people anymore, which is great,

888
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:49,440
but there's still repercussions socially on those things. Are you

889
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,440
familiar with Damien Eccles in the West Memphis.

890
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: Three Full of that story? Quite close to well I

891
00:46:57,559 --> 00:46:59,440
first heard about him. I've got few of Damien's books

892
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,239
just because of they want to support the guy I

893
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,199
thought all that he went through. Yes, yeah, very familiar account.

894
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: And he attributes he was kind of does like a

895
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,719
ritual magic. I would say it would be his style.

896
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,960
He attributes that to the reason he's still alive.

897
00:47:16,519 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I under start reading what he's written as well. Yeah,

898
00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:22,400
I mean he's it's written some brilliant sort of introduction

899
00:47:22,519 --> 00:47:25,000
manuals into ceremonial magic. Definitely. You know that's obviously what

900
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:27,320
became his bag, which is understandable. But yeah, I mean

901
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,920
the whole stories. I should briefly say about the he

902
00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:31,840
was he and two friends who are accused of mourning

903
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,679
that young kid and there was basically no real evidence

904
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,440
to say it was them at all, but they spent

905
00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:39,360
years in prison and eventually they were released. And it's

906
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,159
really kind of weird technicality. Remember they act still a

907
00:47:42,159 --> 00:47:47,119
bit it was their fault, which is crazy. I must

908
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:49,880
have been the free part documentary I wrote I watched

909
00:47:50,639 --> 00:47:52,920
had a very very good idea of who really did

910
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,840
carry out the murders and the guys just walking free.

911
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,719
Still that as is very sad. But yeah, as you say,

912
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,760
he kept him sane, kept him alive, now is doing

913
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,920
okay with him when he's a YouTube channel with lots

914
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,599
of followers. I'm sure YouTube works their money from that,

915
00:48:06,679 --> 00:48:08,519
so that's probably helping him as well. And good luck

916
00:48:08,559 --> 00:48:10,599
to the guy who deserves it, of what you've been through.

917
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 2: He does lectures too. I saw him lecture in New

918
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:13,920
York once.

919
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,119
Speaker 1: It's okay he is.

920
00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:19,519
Speaker 2: He's very well spoken, especially, you know, for what he's

921
00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:23,239
been through. He was just educating himself. And I think

922
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:28,199
he has his own ideas on things too. But he

923
00:48:29,119 --> 00:48:32,480
just dressed a little bit weird and got sent to

924
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:35,760
prison for something he didn't do. Yeah, and that wasn't

925
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:36,599
that long ago.

926
00:48:39,199 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: Yep.

927
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:47,079
Speaker 2: So in Salem, Massachusetts is the Satanic Temple building. Yes,

928
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:50,840
they just had a bomb. It wasn't even a bomb threat.

929
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,559
Someone left a bomb on their front porch and that

930
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,679
their front porch has been lit on fire before and

931
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,679
things like that. And they're not they're not even they're

932
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,199
not sleetin us. It's really just like a bunch of

933
00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:08,440
guys that play dungeons and dragons together, but also they

934
00:49:08,519 --> 00:49:11,119
donate to like play in parenthood and things like that.

935
00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:16,599
Like they're not this horrible, monstrous group that is very

936
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,920
much the attitude that a lot of people here have

937
00:49:20,039 --> 00:49:21,400
towards it.

938
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,159
Speaker 1: It's very sundary that should be. That's one of the

939
00:49:24,159 --> 00:49:27,360
difficult suppose it could be tolerant as a religious person

940
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,119
only to a certainly Greek is Obviously this is an

941
00:49:29,039 --> 00:49:31,679
afthoty your religion. These people are as far as they're

942
00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:34,199
going to say, you're working with evil pounds and the devil.

943
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,599
You're being deceived by the devil, which are against that.

944
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,639
Well it doesn't exist, but well I believe it does exist,

945
00:49:41,639 --> 00:49:45,039
and you're madly with these powers. You don't understand the

946
00:49:45,159 --> 00:49:48,280
common phrases made in the paths. You don't understand how

947
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:49,519
do you know? I don't understand them.

948
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,679
Speaker 2: You no one understands anything.

949
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,519
Speaker 1: But you've been doing for like forty years. You have

950
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:57,639
got an idea of what I'm doing. Now you've got

951
00:49:57,639 --> 00:49:58,559
a fairly good idea.

952
00:49:58,679 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 2: You could see that about God and Christianity too cool.

953
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,400
What if he's really the bad guy and you've got

954
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,320
tricked me exactly?

955
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,199
Speaker 1: There is the whole idea. But you know, all these

956
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,920
bad things happened, but that was down to God. God.

957
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:15,280
God made the world's flood and killed everybody. A part

958
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,199
of those in the ark. Well, God did that. The

959
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,360
devil didn't do it. The gods the one that calls

960
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,320
his earthquakes. And because God's controlling these things, so he's

961
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,559
responsible of these things, not the devil. But you still

962
00:50:25,559 --> 00:50:28,119
think God's are good. It's one of those strange things.

963
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:33,039
It's how faith can be reinforced even despite your experiences.

964
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:36,599
You know, if you are have a belief in something, fine,

965
00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:38,760
fair enough, allow others to have their own beliefs. If

966
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,760
they're wrong, that's up to them to be wrong. If

967
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,480
they're going to go to hell what they believe, then

968
00:50:43,039 --> 00:50:45,199
so be it. You don't have to say, oh, no,

969
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,119
you're bad or evil because you don't know. I believe.

970
00:50:47,639 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that a lot of our current

971
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:59,559
problems are intolerance. Yeah, with grace and religion. Yeah, the

972
00:50:59,599 --> 00:51:05,079
country started that way and we've progressed in a way,

973
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:10,000
but we still haven't fixed it. But you have the

974
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,159
country that you know, started by being led by a

975
00:51:14,199 --> 00:51:18,079
group of people that were religious, zealous, that couldn't get

976
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:20,000
along with the Anglican Church.

977
00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: Yes. Also, of course they went to America for the

978
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,559
freedom of religion, freedom to priice in belief as they

979
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:28,000
choose to everybody else as well.

980
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:35,119
Speaker 2: Then they immediately started killing Quakers. Yeah, yeah, they were

981
00:51:35,159 --> 00:51:38,639
a different religion. They didn't like them. Well, but the Quakers, Uh,

982
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,880
the Quakers believed that anyone could speak directly to God,

983
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,119
so they didn't need a bishop, they didn't need any

984
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,400
kind of leaders, they didn't need anyone else to tell

985
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,800
them what to do. So they didn't follow laws, which

986
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,920
the Puritans didn't like because they wanted the laws for

987
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,760
everyone else to follow. So it was that was you

988
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,599
know about just control in and getting them to pay

989
00:52:01,679 --> 00:52:02,360
taxes too.

990
00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:06,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the Quake is probably the most harmless.

991
00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:09,840
I mean, you could argue not even Christian, because they

992
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,599
don't have a kind of well what over God is God?

993
00:52:12,679 --> 00:52:15,159
You know, you contemplate yourself and who God is, You

994
00:52:15,199 --> 00:52:17,800
can almost argue they're not really Christian. But I say,

995
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,079
the most harmless bunch of all of them. Really, But

996
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:23,280
the Puritans probably the worst because I say they are Puritans,

997
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:24,800
they have to be done a certain way, you know.

998
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,480
That's that's really part of the part of the belief.

999
00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:32,639
Speaker 2: And the witch trial, the Salem witch trials specifically, the

1000
00:52:32,639 --> 00:52:34,719
more I look into those, the more it seems it

1001
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,719
was actually about money in power God.

1002
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,199
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Again, a lot of these the Foco before the

1003
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,440
old wise woman of the village, it was often the

1004
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,159
accusicus of the witchcraft, you get their land, you know.

1005
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:48,920
That was that was actually a case you could like,

1006
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:50,679
if you prove they're a witch, you would not get

1007
00:52:50,679 --> 00:52:52,880
them killed, but you also train the land as a

1008
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,559
compensation for the witchcraft they've done against you. So yeah,

1009
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:57,360
of course, a lot of this is about power and

1010
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,119
wealth and control of the people who didn't like being around.

1011
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,039
Speaker 2: And the Puritans too, they had laws where if someone

1012
00:53:04,199 --> 00:53:06,760
in the village wasn't able to take care of themselves,

1013
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,000
everyone else would have to, and that becomes a problem

1014
00:53:11,039 --> 00:53:12,960
when you don't like that person you have to take

1015
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,559
care of. So one of the women that was executed

1016
00:53:16,599 --> 00:53:21,280
in the Connecticut witch trials was she was a widow

1017
00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:26,239
and she didn't have any children, so everyone else had

1018
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,480
to take care of her as she was elderly. But

1019
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,400
she was just unpleasant and she kept going to this

1020
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:39,320
one neighbor's house and demanding she bake her a pie.

1021
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,800
And it became like a frequent occurrence, like she would

1022
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,280
just come and not leave until this woman agreed to

1023
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,599
bake her a pie, so eventually they accused her of

1024
00:53:50,679 --> 00:53:56,599
witchcraft over her demanding pies. Yeah, which it's a great

1025
00:53:56,679 --> 00:54:00,840
idea to take care of you know, society in your

1026
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,679
village and those that can't take care of themselves, but

1027
00:54:04,559 --> 00:54:06,239
it didn't work out so well for.

1028
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:11,119
Speaker 1: Them especially you have limited resources anyway, you further say

1029
00:54:11,159 --> 00:54:13,480
to get the person out of the way by claim

1030
00:54:13,519 --> 00:54:15,880
they were which will well, you can't understand why they

1031
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,280
do that because you're talking about very limited resources here.

1032
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,960
So of course you know, a chance to remove somebody,

1033
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,679
to get their land from them or whatever you can

1034
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,960
see not can do onely obviously see why they do it.

1035
00:54:27,519 --> 00:54:29,559
That's done, But it is one of those things that

1036
00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:31,280
they came back to you saying before about the sort

1037
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,760
of the folklor angle. You are talking about that kind

1038
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,360
of thing, and then you know, if you think this

1039
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,679
person's curse, you employ the cunning man to come and

1040
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,719
break the spell. There's one particularly guy who I always

1041
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,400
end up mentioning because it is very important fact that

1042
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,199
were the two people that just really want that bit

1043
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,840
that have played a big part in the faunily, not

1044
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,280
just of modern visure which double Wicker as well, that

1045
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,920
Joe Gander brought into well, not so much Joey himself,

1046
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:58,760
but those who followed and brought in that it's a

1047
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:03,199
chap called George Pickingill disapposed to be this witch master

1048
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,719
of Canudon in Essex. They're supposed to have had this

1049
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,039
coven around and him said, but his cover's not real existing,

1050
00:55:08,119 --> 00:55:11,000
but a lea of covened with various women involved in

1051
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,960
whom the wife of the vicar at one point apparently

1052
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:15,639
had all these power over people, could do all sorts

1053
00:55:15,679 --> 00:55:19,920
of spells, and it's largely nonsense, it really is. He's

1054
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,159
become this big figure of sort of folkloric magic and witchcraft,

1055
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,000
but he he almost didn't exist, not the version that

1056
00:55:28,039 --> 00:55:30,920
they talk about didn't exist. There is George picking In fact,

1057
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,480
there are three people who have the very similar name

1058
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,800
who lived around about the similar kind of time, but

1059
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:38,840
none of them before the nineteen sixties they were talking

1060
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,719
about this is the ND eight hundreds, early nine hundreds.

1061
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,599
This guy has, remember, But before the nineteen sixties there

1062
00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:45,599
was no hint this guy, George picking Gill, was hapant

1063
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:47,639
to do magic at all. The only thing that was

1064
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,559
kind of known for us being rather tall, one of

1065
00:55:49,599 --> 00:55:51,599
the six foot which is very unusual in those days

1066
00:55:52,039 --> 00:55:54,519
for sort of country village man, but also possibly one

1067
00:55:54,559 --> 00:55:57,039
of the oldest men in the country, apparently in the nineties,

1068
00:55:57,079 --> 00:55:59,760
although his actual date of birth is the mystery in

1069
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,400
its debated or he really was and a writer called

1070
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:08,119
Eric Maple became a fellow in Essex. Man was writing

1071
00:56:08,159 --> 00:56:12,159
about witchcraft in the nineteen sixties, very sensationalist style of

1072
00:56:12,159 --> 00:56:14,000
writing as well. He was writing for the ex stripty

1073
00:56:14,039 --> 00:56:18,239
Side magazine and the folk Loost Society magazine and with

1074
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,800
acally real evidence other than having spoken to a couple

1075
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,039
of people who lived in Canowdon who were quite elderly

1076
00:56:24,039 --> 00:56:27,719
at the time, created this whole picture of this George

1077
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,880
picking Gill, this mysterious man with these incredible powers and

1078
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,920
this covenant he ran. They were based on two people

1079
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,559
who he interviewed, who were quite elderly, who talked about

1080
00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:40,000
this man. Now, the interesting thing is George picking Gill

1081
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:42,840
had been in the news before because of his great

1082
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:47,159
age and height and his pictures by this very exciting

1083
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,119
modern car, and it was became a bit of a

1084
00:56:49,119 --> 00:56:51,400
local celebrity because it wasn't his guy just pictured with it,

1085
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,960
but became the local celebrity for it. And it seems

1086
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,400
that they somehow confused that George picking Gill with someone

1087
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:02,239
who's practiced magic about fIF years before, because not far

1088
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,360
away in Essex's and now it's called Hadley, literally about

1089
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,199
a dozen and so miles away, Roman called James Cunning

1090
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:14,559
Murrell lived. Now James Murrell definitely was a cunning man.

1091
00:57:14,599 --> 00:57:17,159
He was a wizard and did magic, or if you

1092
00:57:17,159 --> 00:57:19,360
want to put it, he was born in the early

1093
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,119
eighteen hundreds, and he moved at some point to live

1094
00:57:22,119 --> 00:57:26,599
in London who worked in Apothegary chemist you like. He

1095
00:57:26,679 --> 00:57:31,320
may well have met or knew a man called Francis Barrett.

1096
00:57:31,559 --> 00:57:35,440
Now Francis Brett in the late seventeen hundreds had written

1097
00:57:35,559 --> 00:57:41,360
a book called The Magus Imaginal Intelligence. He may have

1098
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,559
had a school of magic where he talked and picking.

1099
00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:47,039
You may have come into contact, sorry, Murrel may have

1100
00:57:47,039 --> 00:57:50,920
come in contact with Francis Barrett at some point because

1101
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,800
some of the things that were in Barrett's book The Majors,

1102
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,079
which is still available now. You said by there is

1103
00:57:56,239 --> 00:58:01,000
actual pictures of George keep saying George J. Murrell's own

1104
00:58:01,079 --> 00:58:05,039
book of magic, and there are images from France Abrat's

1105
00:58:05,039 --> 00:58:07,679
book that are in the pages of Murral's book that

1106
00:58:07,719 --> 00:58:10,159
we have left because he's a whole magical book you

1107
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,280
like disappeared. Sometimes have a photographs of taking up some

1108
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,760
of the pages, and one page of particular shows schedules

1109
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,599
and diagrams have clearly come from the majors, so he

1110
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,320
definitely had access to that mature at some point before

1111
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,039
he returned back to live in Essex, where he was

1112
00:58:25,599 --> 00:58:28,079
known as the Devil's Master. You call himself to the

1113
00:58:28,119 --> 00:58:31,679
Devil's Master he was. He definitely had a following people

1114
00:58:31,719 --> 00:58:33,400
of interesting one he did. He didn't run a cover

1115
00:58:33,519 --> 00:58:36,000
as such, but he was the guy you'd contact if

1116
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,519
you'd been affected by a malicious witchcraft. He would be

1117
00:58:38,519 --> 00:58:39,920
the guy to come along and create these things for

1118
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,280
witch bottles, which he would seal various items in place

1119
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:46,280
it on the fire, and when the witch bottle broke,

1120
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,639
the spell over you would break. That was the story,

1121
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,000
and there are stories of him sitting with a person

1122
00:58:51,039 --> 00:58:53,920
who's being cursed and there's a banging on the door

1123
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:56,360
and there's someone outside and there's sort of woman's voice

1124
00:58:56,519 --> 00:59:00,760
screaming and shouting. The bottle bursts and then knocking that's quiet,

1125
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,559
and either the person's gone or they're dead outside. The

1126
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,599
confected story is your stories. We don't know, but those

1127
00:59:08,199 --> 00:59:11,119
letters existed. Now there seems to have been some point

1128
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,159
the two people got mixed up, George Picking Gill and

1129
00:59:13,199 --> 00:59:15,639
James Mrroll got mixed up. But Mrral was around fifty

1130
00:59:15,719 --> 00:59:21,159
years before Picking Gill, and books written before Maple only

1131
00:59:21,199 --> 00:59:24,480
talk about James Mrrell. There's no mention of anybody else

1132
00:59:24,519 --> 00:59:27,280
of being involved. So this picking your thing popped up

1133
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,639
later on. In fact, it was an Australian writer whose

1134
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:35,760
name sketch you for a moment, but he wrote various

1135
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:40,079
letters to various magazines about what he knew about Picking Gill,

1136
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:45,199
and it was ridiculously over the top, really fabricated nonsense.

1137
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,000
He was supposed to be a leading life in the

1138
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,719
Golden Dawn who wrote Golden Dawn rituals. He did this,

1139
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,559
He did that. It's nonsense. But unfortunately, because Maple wrote

1140
00:59:53,599 --> 00:59:56,360
about it and it was picked up and believed, because

1141
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,480
there's no alternative sources, it's become very much part of

1142
00:59:59,519 --> 01:00:02,880
the mytho mythology around sort of modern witchcraft. Is George

1143
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,320
picking Girl as his famous which you played an important

1144
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,599
part in the family and the Wicker nothing of the kind,

1145
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,039
but it persists. It isn't helped by the fact that

1146
01:00:11,079 --> 01:00:13,239
someone called Professor Rold Hutton, who has become a very

1147
01:00:13,519 --> 01:00:18,119
senior leading life in writing about of leading academic, still

1148
01:00:18,559 --> 01:00:21,559
holds onto the picking your story. It really does cling

1149
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:24,440
on too, quite desperately event And it's so sad because

1150
01:00:24,599 --> 01:00:27,199
he said he actually met with some of the people

1151
01:00:27,199 --> 01:00:29,199
that spoke to all the sense of that people maybe

1152
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:32,679
spoke to and they told him the same sort of story. Again,

1153
01:00:32,719 --> 01:00:34,719
there was the older people telling this him as a

1154
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,199
young man their experiences, but he was fourteen at the time,

1155
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,880
so the chances are the old girls have misremembered this stuff.

1156
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:43,639
I was just saying that spinning a yard with these

1157
01:00:43,679 --> 01:00:46,800
young teenage school kid he's asking about witchcraft, the magic.

1158
01:00:47,079 --> 01:00:49,559
But yeah, he holds onto it now. One of the

1159
01:00:49,559 --> 01:00:51,559
things my friend Richard had mentioned earlier in his book

1160
01:00:51,679 --> 01:00:55,880
The o Betwixt God and the Devil. He has written

1161
01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:00,760
extensively about this mistaken identity. I mean I've written as

1162
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,559
well about it too my own book, but also he's

1163
01:01:02,599 --> 01:01:04,440
written much more about it. And it's a bit of

1164
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:06,679
a crusaper that both on to get this out there

1165
01:01:06,719 --> 01:01:10,480
that James cunning Moral is the real cunning Man of Essex,

1166
01:01:10,519 --> 01:01:13,199
the real source of a sub inspecterial that ends up

1167
01:01:13,199 --> 01:01:16,760
being part of the say Wicker, not just picking you up.

1168
01:01:17,119 --> 01:01:19,639
And it's a bit of a crusade getting this information

1169
01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:22,840
out there. But it's important about how myths can develop

1170
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,000
way beyond the reality and the truth of something. They

1171
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,679
can get bigger and become heart to defeat even if

1172
01:01:27,679 --> 01:01:29,840
they're completely untrue.

1173
01:01:30,119 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the way I think the practice part

1174
01:01:33,519 --> 01:01:36,440
of it is important because we don't know how much

1175
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:41,440
of that has happened over the years. And you might

1176
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,480
pick up a book from X person that says, you

1177
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:47,760
know you need to do steps one, two and three.

1178
01:01:48,559 --> 01:01:51,159
You might find you need to have a step before

1179
01:01:51,239 --> 01:01:54,440
step one for it to work for you. And you know,

1180
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,320
who knows where that came from. Who knows you know

1181
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,679
if that person was sincere or not. You just kind

1182
01:01:59,679 --> 01:02:01,559
of have to figure out what works for you.

1183
01:02:02,199 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it is try and error what feels right.

1184
01:02:05,559 --> 01:02:08,880
Work with what feels right to you. That's fits of

1185
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:12,119
your expectations, your hope, your desires. I'm fine work with it.

1186
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,119
Don't feel you have to tread the path of other people,

1187
01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:18,239
are trodden yourself. So work with what's around, but develop yourself.

1188
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:19,920
You know. That's one thing I'm quite keen on is

1189
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,639
to say, don't your own understandings of what way of

1190
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:25,079
working things? When I have some practices of my own

1191
01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:27,320
that I take it for other elements. I have a

1192
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,719
strong interest myself in Icelandic stave magic, which is a

1193
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:33,639
different thing entirely, but I find it fast and I

1194
01:02:33,679 --> 01:02:35,880
find again using some of that stuff that actually works.

1195
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,840
The more I've dug into Icelaantic stave magic, there's a

1196
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,920
strong influence of the Solomonic stuff I mentioned before. Solomonic magic.

1197
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:46,400
There was an influence in stave magic definitely. They've seen

1198
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,800
it coming from the same source. They're both involved drawing

1199
01:02:49,039 --> 01:02:52,519
your siguls, these patterns and shapes and forms and empowering

1200
01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:54,800
the schedules to have an effect. And I say both

1201
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,760
Icelantic stave magic and Solomonic magic, which comes originally would

1202
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,800
be from the Middle East, but obviously European Central European

1203
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,480
seems to work together very nicely. They fit comfortably with

1204
01:03:05,519 --> 01:03:05,920
each other.

1205
01:03:06,599 --> 01:03:09,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know you wrote a book about runs.

1206
01:03:11,199 --> 01:03:20,280
What are your thoughts on divination ruins, tarot Pendulumah.

1207
01:03:18,199 --> 01:03:21,159
Speaker 1: It's a whole interesting little area as well. First and foremost,

1208
01:03:21,199 --> 01:03:23,119
I don't believe the future. I think any of the

1209
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:26,000
pict the future. It's become the way they've been seen

1210
01:03:26,039 --> 01:03:29,039
as doing. So. I think they can help, particular Taro

1211
01:03:29,079 --> 01:03:32,639
because it's more complex in understanding your current situation. How

1212
01:03:32,719 --> 01:03:36,239
these things work. I mean, as you've mentioned many many times,

1213
01:03:36,639 --> 01:03:40,119
I'm a young Yin based psychotherapist or was semi retired

1214
01:03:40,159 --> 01:03:43,000
now but so young. Very much talks about one talks

1215
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,079
about the synchronicities involved in things like Tara and Eigene

1216
01:03:46,119 --> 01:03:49,119
as well the Chinese devination system. But there's ways of

1217
01:03:49,159 --> 01:03:51,760
tapping into the deep psyche. But there is always this

1218
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:53,559
idea of that they are going to tell the future,

1219
01:03:53,599 --> 01:03:57,360
but I don't think they do. The divination itself helps

1220
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,760
you understand your own situation and what's going on. They

1221
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:01,639
might give you a point as to where things might

1222
01:04:01,639 --> 01:04:03,519
be going, as in you know, if you keep driving

1223
01:04:03,519 --> 01:04:05,039
towards that brick wall, you can hit it. You know,

1224
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,840
as simple as that it's It could give you warnings

1225
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,039
of what might be to come. I think it's also

1226
01:04:10,039 --> 01:04:14,280
a very effective means of tapping into one sucking senses

1227
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,519
if you'd like, if you're give reading to somebody else,

1228
01:04:16,559 --> 01:04:19,559
there are a mechanism to engage with that other person's

1229
01:04:19,559 --> 01:04:23,760
thoughts and feelings the ruins fun I'm not a big

1230
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,199
fan of using runs, even though my book on Runs

1231
01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:30,280
includes divination. In fact, I might have this before, but

1232
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,519
the divination section was that the idea of my publisher,

1233
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:36,480
I wasn't going to bother, we should really add something

1234
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,000
like that in the having, and I said, okay, well

1235
01:04:38,039 --> 01:04:40,119
I'll do that, but I hadn't planned it. But again,

1236
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,360
the way I work with him again is very young

1237
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,239
gin basis. I think about working in the unconscious ideas

1238
01:04:45,239 --> 01:04:48,119
that pulling out the ruins and reading them might give

1239
01:04:48,119 --> 01:04:51,000
an insight into your own subconscious processes. So for me,

1240
01:04:51,079 --> 01:04:54,360
that's what divination. Those forms of divinations, like said the

1241
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,280
Tara and Runs are about hygiene as well. I'm not

1242
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:01,199
big in astrology because asology is very fatalistic. It is

1243
01:05:01,239 --> 01:05:03,880
as if these things are setting stone. That they are,

1244
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:05,679
but in the future and the movement on the planet

1245
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,320
will this, so what happens next? You know, the classic blood.

1246
01:05:09,079 --> 01:05:13,480
So I've never been interested in astrology. Again, it's the

1247
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,880
only a personal thing. It's just for me. It's too fatalistic.

1248
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:19,239
It means your path in life is already set and

1249
01:05:19,239 --> 01:05:21,280
you can do nothing about it. It's just the way

1250
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,320
these blobs in the sky are moving decides you're going

1251
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,719
to live. Which you put it like that just sounds

1252
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:27,360
dafter me.

1253
01:05:28,519 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Taro specifically, like you mentioned, I think it really

1254
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:37,320
helps you be self reflective and analyze yourself a little

1255
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:41,039
bit better. For people that don't do that naturally, I

1256
01:05:41,079 --> 01:05:43,119
need to stop doing that. So I need whatever the

1257
01:05:43,119 --> 01:05:47,119
apposite of Taro is. But I think it's great for

1258
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:52,840
people to learn to read Taro. I get suspicious when

1259
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:57,840
it's people charging to read other people. So I think

1260
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:03,280
that takes so of the benefits out of it. And

1261
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:05,480
there's do you guys have a lot of that in

1262
01:06:05,559 --> 01:06:07,639
the UK? It's all over the place.

1263
01:06:08,239 --> 01:06:11,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you got lots of good affairs and

1264
01:06:11,239 --> 01:06:12,800
the sort of sack affairs and the like and do that,

1265
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:17,199
and you can find terrors online almost I mean, very honestly,

1266
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:19,159
I did it one for a period of time. Professional

1267
01:06:19,159 --> 01:06:23,679
Tarry excuse me, got paid for Tarran rather than the veteron.

1268
01:06:24,159 --> 01:06:25,920
Just was getting bad to do it in a little

1269
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:28,079
shop in my hometown where he is to live. And

1270
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:30,760
I didn't do it a long I quite enjoyed doing it,

1271
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,960
but I did realize people were coming to be expecting

1272
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:35,320
me to tell them how to live their lives for them,

1273
01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:37,000
you know, kind of tell me what I was supposed

1274
01:06:37,039 --> 01:06:39,199
to tell me. What this used to hear my mind

1275
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,159
was a young guy who was a security guard keep

1276
01:06:41,239 --> 01:06:43,760
seeing basically he was dating to at the same time,

1277
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,159
I want me to tell here which one should be

1278
01:06:45,199 --> 01:06:48,679
with what I don't blood you know, I can tell

1279
01:06:48,679 --> 01:06:51,159
you what I'm getting from these cards as And they

1280
01:06:51,159 --> 01:06:54,440
said that, well, the description I'm seeing this person I was.

1281
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:55,880
I was seeing them in mind, this image of a

1282
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:59,079
woman that should we hear then what do you think

1283
01:06:59,079 --> 01:07:01,320
it's your girlfriend? So it was that kind of I

1284
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:03,480
want you to have the answers for them. But the

1285
01:07:03,519 --> 01:07:05,559
same time you had some very odd experiences. Get the

1286
01:07:05,559 --> 01:07:07,000
one that stood out. A woman came to see me

1287
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,159
who dog had just passed away, and I was able

1288
01:07:09,159 --> 01:07:12,679
to describe the inside of her house in vivid detail,

1289
01:07:13,039 --> 01:07:15,239
the layer of everything, even though the rooms looked and everything,

1290
01:07:15,239 --> 01:07:17,199
and she was almost one point of you into my

1291
01:07:17,199 --> 01:07:20,119
house before. So no, never before there we had never met.

1292
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,599
So no, but you're so detailed, say it was just

1293
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:25,559
using terror cards. It's the images I was seeing up

1294
01:07:25,639 --> 01:07:27,159
was the fact that I had I could see where

1295
01:07:27,199 --> 01:07:28,920
doggor to sleep, the potom, the stairs. I could still

1296
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:30,920
see it now in my mind's eye. You walk in

1297
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:33,519
the front door and the staircases just on the right,

1298
01:07:33,599 --> 01:07:35,800
going straight up to the left. There's a lounge at

1299
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:37,840
the front and go through another door where there's kitchen

1300
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:39,559
at the back and dog to sleep the bop the stairs.

1301
01:07:40,039 --> 01:07:41,679
So it was like guarding the stairs for her, and

1302
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,760
she was like, I don't know, that's all I'm seeing.

1303
01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:47,199
Others it was more kind of just bland. Well, you know,

1304
01:07:47,239 --> 01:07:49,280
this car means that and means that ends up to you,

1305
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,119
so if you feel happy with that. So it's interesting

1306
01:07:53,159 --> 01:07:55,840
because obviously for being paid, there's a kind of pressure

1307
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,920
to perform if you do it just to be nice,

1308
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:02,480
and there's no pressure so much. But people work coming

1309
01:08:02,519 --> 01:08:05,039
with a very definite expectation. I was going to tell

1310
01:08:05,039 --> 01:08:07,079
them their future what they're supposed to do with their lives.

1311
01:08:07,159 --> 01:08:08,559
Now I can tell them what to do with their

1312
01:08:08,599 --> 01:08:10,920
lives and tell them the future something different, you know,

1313
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:13,559
So this is what you're doing. I mean, this is

1314
01:08:13,599 --> 01:08:15,800
long before Changingly a psychotherapist, and I can recognize our

1315
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:21,319
elements that are the Tarrorians early twenties. Then that I

1316
01:08:21,319 --> 01:08:23,680
can see later on what elements of psychotherapy, you know,

1317
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,279
trying to help them question themselves, christ their choices and

1318
01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:28,159
what they were doing, what they thought was right for themselves,

1319
01:08:28,199 --> 01:08:30,039
and of trying to find somebody else to tell them

1320
01:08:30,039 --> 01:08:33,720
what to do. Figure out for yourself. So I'm not

1321
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:38,399
totally against the idea, but when you are having to perform,

1322
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,159
it is putting pressure on yourself to produce something that

1323
01:08:41,239 --> 01:08:43,600
you could eas just make it out in the future,

1324
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:44,800
just make it up, you know.

1325
01:08:45,359 --> 01:08:49,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, no one can be on and accurate one of

1326
01:08:49,119 --> 01:08:52,000
the time, even if you are kind of tuned in.

1327
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:55,680
There's probably people that you don't connect with of course,

1328
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:59,399
or you're just you have bad days sometimes, right, Yeah,

1329
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:03,319
But there's people out there too, Because there's so many

1330
01:09:03,399 --> 01:09:07,520
people out there. How does you know someone off the

1331
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:13,279
street know that you're sincere or not. Some people will anything.

1332
01:09:14,039 --> 01:09:18,880
Someone with a Tarot deck says, and yeah.

1333
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: I encountered. I mean, the last time I actually went

1334
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,000
to someone for reading is many years ago. And I

1335
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,840
remember very vividly because they said they can't get anything.

1336
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:30,920
I'll get nothing from you and actually give my money back,

1337
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,560
which is quite nice. But said, that's just said. I'm sorry.

1338
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,239
I just I don't I can't get anything from you.

1339
01:09:37,079 --> 01:09:39,319
Prior to that, I haven't been to many, he said

1340
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,279
another bothered. I just went as curious. But I always

1341
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:44,560
remember one Tara Reado. I met it betually became my

1342
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,920
friends with the guy and his wife. I walked in

1343
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:48,520
the little shop he had a little New Age type

1344
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:50,479
shop he had on the market. This is in South

1345
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,000
k used to work south in Essex, and I never

1346
01:09:53,039 --> 01:09:54,399
forget what he said to me. Walked through the door

1347
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,159
and said, you have a flaming pentagram surrounding you, and

1348
01:09:57,199 --> 01:09:59,079
there's a figure in the background, but don't worry, there

1349
01:09:59,079 --> 01:10:01,399
to protect you. And whatever his name was, Alex, I

1350
01:10:01,399 --> 01:10:03,399
think his name was. By the way, He's like, okay,

1351
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,000
now I knew what he was talking about, because in

1352
01:10:06,039 --> 01:10:08,640
those days I was very much involved in working the

1353
01:10:09,159 --> 01:10:11,479
ink nook. You mentioned doctor John d And in a

1354
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,680
knock and you come contact with a thing called corons On,

1355
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:16,880
which is called the demon of the Abyss. It's a

1356
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:18,880
stage you have to go through. You have to deal

1357
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:20,920
with it. It's like your own ego basically the idea

1358
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:23,000
and when you get past the ego stage, you move

1359
01:10:23,039 --> 01:10:25,399
on to higher levels. Is the idea. But you have

1360
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,520
to quote confront corons On and I've been working with

1361
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,079
korns On with this energy at that time and learn behold,

1362
01:10:32,079 --> 01:10:33,560
this is pretty much what the guy who was seeing

1363
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,600
behind me. So it was like, wow, I can see

1364
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,600
this figure. And a lot of mediums, if you're like

1365
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,920
used to meet through the ghost investigation stuff. I used

1366
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:42,520
to say, well, what do you get from me? And

1367
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,640
often more on once a few times say there's a

1368
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,000
dark figure around you, but he's perfectly okay, he's looking

1369
01:10:48,039 --> 01:10:50,479
after you, or I can't see because he puts his

1370
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,960
cloak around and envelops you. Okay, yeah, I know he's

1371
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:55,560
exactly what you're talking about. And it doesn't say that.

1372
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:57,560
I thank God for that. I was really worried then,

1373
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,119
So no, I know exactly what you're talking about. Now.

1374
01:11:00,399 --> 01:11:02,439
You could argue that, and I often do the mediums

1375
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,439
that they're psychic. They're picking up things from your mind

1376
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:06,319
because it was happened with you mine, because you're working

1377
01:11:06,319 --> 01:11:07,960
on this stuff even if it wasn't thinking about right

1378
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,199
there and then it was there in my mind. They

1379
01:11:10,199 --> 01:11:12,439
were picking up on that. And that's how I often

1380
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,600
view those people. But some terriers will see you that

1381
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:18,800
the Tarror for them is just the vehicle. It's the

1382
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,359
unlocking mechanism for their mind to then communicate with whatever's

1383
01:11:22,399 --> 01:11:27,479
going on. It becomes secondary. In fact, before that, when

1384
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:29,800
you give Tarot card reading, the cards I suppose to

1385
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,880
have specific meanings. If you're getting meanings different to what

1386
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:34,920
the cards are supposed to be saying, go with what

1387
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:38,359
you're feeling, you know, recognize that maybe you've evolved beyond

1388
01:11:38,359 --> 01:11:39,960
those and maybe you're still using it because it's a

1389
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:42,720
it works the way for you. It unlocks of it

1390
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:44,479
for you. But if you're getting meaning it's different to

1391
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:46,760
what the cards say, go with what you're getting because

1392
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:49,479
it's more precise. You're active and alive in situation. The

1393
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,720
cards are pieces of the paper basically, they are more inactive.

1394
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,479
So if you're getting a different reading and then go.

1395
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 2: For that, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah,

1396
01:12:00,159 --> 01:12:02,720
and so I've been saving this. I kind of teased

1397
01:12:03,159 --> 01:12:09,319
a little bit earlier, but I had talked about trying

1398
01:12:09,359 --> 01:12:11,800
to get my mother to go back to Florida. Oh yes,

1399
01:12:13,239 --> 01:12:18,399
So yesterday morning, I woke up right and early, just

1400
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:23,560
determined to end the insanity that has been happening in

1401
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:27,560
my home. And I woke up and I started. I

1402
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:32,399
gathered up all of my things that have any kind

1403
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:39,640
of connection with protection right railroad spike and obsidian and

1404
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:42,880
a hagstone and stuff like that, and I just made

1405
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:46,199
it arts and crafts time, and I started glueing stuff together.

1406
01:12:46,239 --> 01:12:49,079
I made a really nice, cute little ornament I could

1407
01:12:49,119 --> 01:12:54,279
hang up somewhere focus my energy on that. My mother

1408
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,720
comes over and says, you know, I'm really sorry, but

1409
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,199
we decided to go up to Vermont and visit that

1410
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:05,079
your sister up there, so we're actually leaving. So I

1411
01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:08,279
have no that's what did it fun, But.

1412
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:11,359
Speaker 1: It's about that's good. That's one of the things I've

1413
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:13,319
said to you before. You know, it's will and intent

1414
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,560
very important in magic. If you're willing something to happen,

1415
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,960
these things, the schedules, whatever, you're working with our vehicles

1416
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:22,800
so enable that will to occur. I will tell the

1417
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,039
same story I've told many times, I know, but in

1418
01:13:25,079 --> 01:13:27,000
case you've never heard this one before, it's like all

1419
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,600
where you've been. But I'll tell it again back in

1420
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:33,079
oh god, ten twelve years ago. Now, it must have

1421
01:13:33,079 --> 01:13:34,800
been quite a while ago where I was living in

1422
01:13:35,159 --> 01:13:36,960
my old hometown. I won't name it, but it's not

1423
01:13:37,399 --> 01:13:41,640
awful place. But we had neighbours either side and across

1424
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,000
the road, and each one, for different reasons, were a

1425
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,359
bit of a pain in the backside. The guide to

1426
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:49,920
the left of us was a recently retired builder and

1427
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,039
he was doing up the house himself, but he was

1428
01:13:52,239 --> 01:13:56,840
so slow with it. Every weekend it'll be bang bang, drill,

1429
01:13:57,000 --> 01:14:00,479
real sore, all sorts of noise, and then it's stopped

1430
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:03,520
and started having only during the week which was even

1431
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:06,239
worse when you're a home based like a therapist and

1432
01:14:06,279 --> 01:14:08,359
study talking with a car and there'll be selling me

1433
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,079
drills going off next door. And he said to me, well,

1434
01:14:11,079 --> 01:14:13,000
I don't do it at the weekends because everyone's home

1435
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,560
from work, so which I said, well, you know, I

1436
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:18,119
work from home and weekends will be fine for us.

1437
01:14:18,159 --> 01:14:19,920
Because he wasn't attached the other side was just attached

1438
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,079
to us. But no, no, what I want to get

1439
01:14:22,079 --> 01:14:26,079
this done. So it's like I don't know loud the

1440
01:14:26,159 --> 01:14:29,159
other side of us were young couple who were perfectly fine,

1441
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:32,079
very friendly with and go on well with them until

1442
01:14:32,239 --> 01:14:36,039
the woman felt pregnant and we'd already met her mum,

1443
01:14:36,079 --> 01:14:37,319
and she was a bit of a bit of a

1444
01:14:37,399 --> 01:14:41,720
dragon wre she was an absolute nightmare. The girl herself

1445
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,680
was a bit on the sort of shy side of

1446
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,079
not even shy. Just mum was in charge. And Mum

1447
01:14:48,159 --> 01:14:50,239
the hand its you to come around every single day

1448
01:14:50,239 --> 01:14:52,000
of the week again, which was perfectly fine, except you

1449
01:14:52,039 --> 01:14:54,840
to park a car in front of our house, which

1450
01:14:55,119 --> 01:14:57,439
when you're again as a therapist and you want free

1451
01:14:57,479 --> 01:14:59,960
access to your own drive isabe in the backside and more.

1452
01:15:00,039 --> 01:15:02,520
One occasion, I've had clients who actually rang me and

1453
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:04,880
said can I come because of someone outside your house?

1454
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,399
I said, no, it's a woman next door. She insists

1455
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:09,720
some parking. Now. I've asked him not to because there's

1456
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:12,880
perfectly good space in front of her own daughter's house.

1457
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:14,680
But no, for some reason, she wanted to make sure

1458
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:16,640
her daughter could get her car off the drive trader

1459
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:18,520
awhere she needed, so she's part in front of our house,

1460
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:20,840
make it look like someone's in our house when they weren't.

1461
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:25,720
So that was irritating. Across the road a couple moved

1462
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:27,880
in and the guy was middle aged man who was

1463
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:29,600
trying to catch his youth from board the Harley Davis

1464
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,760
and motorbike, which I'm sure you know are very noisy machines.

1465
01:15:33,239 --> 01:15:35,319
He'd come home from work sort of five o'clock in

1466
01:15:35,359 --> 01:15:37,640
the afternoon, now very in mind. I'd often see clients

1467
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:40,720
well into the evening. In the winter it wasn't quite

1468
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:42,439
so bad, but in the summer he had the windows zones.

1469
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,840
It's hot. He'd get his bike out, turn it on

1470
01:15:45,119 --> 01:15:48,439
and leave it running for a good ten minutes, just

1471
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,359
left running on the drive opposite us. I know, speaking

1472
01:15:52,359 --> 01:15:54,520
to the young couple next door every time that the

1473
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:56,279
baby used to wake up and start crying, so she

1474
01:15:56,439 --> 01:15:58,560
was paid off with him as well. And it was

1475
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:00,520
just there was no talking to The guy was a big,

1476
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:03,199
beefy bloke. You just you couldn't talk to about anything.

1477
01:16:03,239 --> 01:16:05,479
There's no point even trying, you know. So with his

1478
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:07,760
high vaas and big and his leather jacket, he's just

1479
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:10,199
trying to recapture his lost youth I say, probably his fifties,

1480
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:13,560
and they've had enough. It was just getting ridiculous. It

1481
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:16,760
was just so annoying. Had a long chot old friend

1482
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:19,720
of mine also at Practitioner Magic, and between us we

1483
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,119
kind of devised a plan. Now the element of it

1484
01:16:23,239 --> 01:16:25,720
I did was much more involved in what he did.

1485
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:28,399
But he just idea is we created something I won't

1486
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:32,520
say what it was, and made these items and place

1487
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,159
them in strategic places where you're supposed to place these

1488
01:16:35,199 --> 01:16:37,199
certain items for them to work. And being very vague

1489
01:16:37,239 --> 01:16:39,000
I know, but this I'd rather not say too much

1490
01:16:39,039 --> 01:16:43,520
about it. Within six months, all three of them had moved.

1491
01:16:44,199 --> 01:16:46,560
The guy had built a guy went first, he went off.

1492
01:16:47,319 --> 01:16:50,520
The bloke opposite they decided to move away, and so

1493
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:52,239
there was obviously in their minds to go, but for

1494
01:16:52,239 --> 01:16:56,119
whatever reason they were having and then next door felt

1495
01:16:56,119 --> 01:16:59,600
pregnant again, second child coming, want a bigger house. But

1496
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,039
this all three of them happened within six months, and

1497
01:17:02,199 --> 01:17:05,800
each one of them was replaced by much nicer people.

1498
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:09,960
The old guy who left, they're replaced by Italian couple

1499
01:17:10,039 --> 01:17:12,359
who we are still friendship today. And there we moved

1500
01:17:12,399 --> 01:17:14,199
away from where you used to live. They came visited

1501
01:17:14,239 --> 01:17:16,359
last weekend. Were stay in close contact every time we

1502
01:17:16,399 --> 01:17:18,319
go back because my dad lives at my old hometown.

1503
01:17:18,359 --> 01:17:20,600
We always visit them so they are friends, not just names.

1504
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:22,880
They're good friends. Now a couple of the other side

1505
01:17:23,239 --> 01:17:27,399
had no plans for kids in the thirties, perfectly fine, friendly,

1506
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:30,920
got on with them. Fire across the road the block

1507
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,439
I bought the house was a computer programmer. We used

1508
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:37,199
to go abroad like months at a time, so he

1509
01:17:37,279 --> 01:17:38,880
was even around. He was on his own and the

1510
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:43,960
big when abroad. In fact, we used to house it

1511
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,319
for him ocasionally. Use of house insurance works. We will

1512
01:17:46,359 --> 01:17:48,039
have one thirty days you have to have someone be

1513
01:17:48,159 --> 01:17:49,479
in the house, so you give us the key and

1514
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,000
said just go in and sit down a cop coffee

1515
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,399
in there. So valu, it's my insurance. Got really well.

1516
01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:56,560
The guy you sorry to get well with him, but

1517
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:58,680
he was about this is a nice bloke and that

1518
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:01,640
was a change. And the say one person to move

1519
01:18:02,039 --> 01:18:08,199
coincidence two it's impressive, but all three within six months.

1520
01:18:08,239 --> 01:18:12,800
Something we did made that work, and I've since used

1521
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:16,199
a very similar theme for other friends who've had issues.

1522
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:19,960
One partner, my friend of mine, her ex partner was

1523
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:23,479
actually asked wouldn't leave her alone, kept calling it every

1524
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:26,479
day and coming around. I gave her one of these

1525
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:28,840
things I'd made, told a way to put it, and

1526
01:18:29,159 --> 01:18:31,720
instantly stopped going around. He never came around again after that.

1527
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:35,000
He just stopped. Literally the day she got it, supposed

1528
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:36,880
to to her put it where she supposed to put it,

1529
01:18:37,119 --> 01:18:40,960
and it stopped. Another friend who's who's familiar to us.

1530
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:42,359
I can't want to tell her story, it's her story

1531
01:18:42,399 --> 01:18:45,880
to tell, but had had years of problems with the

1532
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:49,199
neighbor building it literally built on her land. I gave

1533
01:18:49,319 --> 01:18:52,399
one of these items within a couple of months his

1534
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:55,600
house was on the market, he was leaving, So you know,

1535
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:58,640
make of that what you will. They appear to work.

1536
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:02,640
How why, I don't know. Never had any comeback from them,

1537
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:06,119
so at least the three full business. But they're designed

1538
01:19:06,119 --> 01:19:07,279
to be done, to do it the right way, they

1539
01:19:07,279 --> 01:19:08,680
should not come back on you anyway.

1540
01:19:09,279 --> 01:19:16,199
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. That plant I mentioned earlier, my grandmother's voodoo plant.

1541
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:22,760
There is a joke in my friend group that that

1542
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:28,079
plant is cursed because every time or so I've since

1543
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:32,960
it has since stopped doing this, but for several years,

1544
01:19:33,079 --> 01:19:37,399
every time I reopened that plant, one particular X would

1545
01:19:37,399 --> 01:19:42,920
call me within a week, no blomming, and I Actually,

1546
01:19:43,159 --> 01:19:46,359
I took that plant to a hoodoo shop near me

1547
01:19:47,279 --> 01:19:51,079
and got that woman's advice on it, and now like

1548
01:19:51,159 --> 01:19:55,239
I almost use it like it's a ward, but I

1549
01:19:55,239 --> 01:19:58,800
i've what happened was I had stopped putting those in it,

1550
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:06,159
and apparently, like the pennies we're telling it bring money

1551
01:20:06,239 --> 01:20:10,239
into the home. If they're used for they're called the

1552
01:20:10,279 --> 01:20:14,319
resurrection plant because they look dead and then they can

1553
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:18,840
come back to life, so they're used for like new beginnings,

1554
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:25,760
but also prosperity or resurrecting something. So it could be

1555
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:29,439
you know, opening you up to prosperity, or it could

1556
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:32,439
be trying to resurrect an old relationship. And if you

1557
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:34,800
don't put those pennies in there to tell it which

1558
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:38,199
one to do, right, just do what it wants, is

1559
01:20:38,279 --> 01:20:40,960
what we think. Because I started putting the pennies back

1560
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:45,399
in and it stopped happening. Oh yeah, I'm scared to

1561
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:48,239
like do an experiment and open it without the pennies

1562
01:20:48,239 --> 01:20:49,279
because I don't want to deal with that.

1563
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:56,039
Speaker 1: That's of the things that the nature of magic. It's,

1564
01:20:56,800 --> 01:20:59,319
as you've said many times before, it happens too often

1565
01:20:59,359 --> 01:21:01,680
to be coincident, but enough to be a provable. You

1566
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:05,159
know it's it's not verified, but it's to scientifically. But

1567
01:21:05,199 --> 01:21:07,159
I mean, now I could tell you sorry before about

1568
01:21:07,239 --> 01:21:11,159
someone I know who excuse me, basically wanted to have

1569
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:16,079
more time to work on magical stuff. They actually asked

1570
01:21:16,079 --> 01:21:19,600
a particular again this is that road demon from the

1571
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:23,520
Goesia for help, and I don't know if it would work.

1572
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:25,279
Within a few months he had a bad accident, was

1573
01:21:25,279 --> 01:21:27,520
put in the wheelchair for a period of time, so

1574
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:29,399
it was off work for a period of time. But

1575
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:31,319
he had a very bad back. It was is not

1576
01:21:31,399 --> 01:21:35,119
really really wanted, you know, weren't precise. You know, you

1577
01:21:35,159 --> 01:21:36,920
didn't really say if you want to have more time

1578
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,159
doing something, you've got to sacrifice something else to get

1579
01:21:39,159 --> 01:21:42,680
that more time. You have to be careful what you

1580
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:43,880
wish for.

1581
01:21:44,119 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 2: That reminds me of like the genie and the lamps.

1582
01:21:49,319 --> 01:21:52,079
Speaker 1: Mythology, see that comes from these come from somewhere, these

1583
01:21:52,119 --> 01:21:53,640
whole myths and legends. I mean, we sort thing you

1584
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:55,680
can talk about another time. You know, sources of myths

1585
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:58,880
and legends because they are based in something. They're not

1586
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,319
just made up the story completely. They are generational ideas

1587
01:22:02,319 --> 01:22:04,119
that are in there somehow. You know you talk about

1588
01:22:04,399 --> 01:22:06,359
the genie in the lamp. That's the gin of course

1589
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:10,439
of Islamic stright Middle Eastern version of demonic forces. They

1590
01:22:10,439 --> 01:22:12,720
work a little differently. I mean that's saying not quit

1591
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,119
the same as the old fashioned demon. The genians are

1592
01:22:15,119 --> 01:22:18,680
something different. But again the genie of the sort of

1593
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:22,199
and the dizzy fire kind of thing of William's doing

1594
01:22:22,199 --> 01:22:23,920
the voice, and then you have the gin, which is

1595
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:29,000
something quite different, but one comes from the other. M Well,

1596
01:22:29,119 --> 01:22:31,880
I think we've had a good evening of long discussion

1597
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:35,560
about witchcraft and the culture change. So think perhaps you

1598
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:38,319
might because of wrapping things up, we're doing quite well.

1599
01:22:38,359 --> 01:22:40,960
Unless you've got anything questions you want to ask or anything.

1600
01:22:41,199 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 2: But guess what we didn't talk about.

1601
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: I know, don't say it. He kept well away. We're

1602
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:53,399
not going to even stray even close to mentioning someone.

1603
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:57,199
This will be a record, I think, I think actually

1604
01:22:57,239 --> 01:22:58,960
saying I think you may have done one show before.

1605
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:00,960
We didn't mention his name. I think you and I

1606
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,359
may have done it. But yes, in activity tonight, and

1607
01:23:04,399 --> 01:23:06,199
though of course it's all trying to draw to Heah,

1608
01:23:06,199 --> 01:23:09,479
because we are still talking about we're working with energies now,

1609
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:12,159
whether it is of a panormal form that we're talking

1610
01:23:12,159 --> 01:23:15,880
about more normally or a cult my years of experienced

1611
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:19,479
dealing with this stuff, both occult stuff, witchcraft, magic and

1612
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:24,279
supernatural UFOs, we are talking about the same thing, the

1613
01:23:24,319 --> 01:23:27,880
same source of energy that can be manipulated and altered.

1614
01:23:28,039 --> 01:23:30,279
Whether you do it consciously or not, whether to do

1615
01:23:30,359 --> 01:23:32,640
of your belief systems or not, I don't know, but

1616
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:35,800
I think these things are fundamenting the same thing, as

1617
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:38,279
I was saying earlier on working with Solomonic magic and

1618
01:23:38,319 --> 01:23:42,199
Anochian two quite different systems which the Golden Dawn tried

1619
01:23:42,199 --> 01:23:45,119
to bring together to one system, which I think failed

1620
01:23:45,119 --> 01:23:48,319
spectacularly because Golden Dawn's and Nockean magic is so far

1621
01:23:48,359 --> 01:23:50,399
removed from the original stuff that John d wrote in

1622
01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:53,520
the fifteen hundreds, it's ridiculous. It's a miles away from

1623
01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:56,159
it where they tried to combine the two together. But

1624
01:23:56,479 --> 01:24:00,680
they are dealing with the same kind of energies, trying personal,

1625
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:05,920
maybe transimensional, but something deep within us that's also out there,

1626
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:07,319
but it's part of us as well.

1627
01:24:09,319 --> 01:24:13,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, would you have advice for someone that wants

1628
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:16,560
to start practicing but might be scared to end up

1629
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:18,000
in a wheelchair like your friend did.

1630
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:24,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't ask for things like that was read. Try

1631
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:27,279
and find the classics stuff, the older texts. There are

1632
01:24:27,319 --> 01:24:29,680
lots of modern book which are absolutely fine, no problem

1633
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:31,720
at all, but you know, look for the earlier stuff,

1634
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:33,000
like say, if you want to get into wi can

1635
01:24:33,039 --> 01:24:35,479
look for Joe Gardler's books Witchcraft, The Day and the

1636
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:37,960
Meaning of Witchcraft. Find those, Read those is a good

1637
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:40,359
starting point if that's what we want to get into again,

1638
01:24:40,399 --> 01:24:43,319
the judicial witchcraft stuff. Get some of the folkloss aside

1639
01:24:43,359 --> 01:24:46,479
and stuff, the old books that catalog and detail these

1640
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:48,920
things you want to get into. The Golden Dawn, start

1641
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:51,720
with amor the Golden Dorm. It's their system of magic.

1642
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:55,840
But authors around those topics. It's it's a mindfield, won't you.

1643
01:24:55,920 --> 01:24:57,359
It's one of the difficult things people do. You often

1644
01:24:57,399 --> 01:24:59,399
ask me that what would you start with. I've been

1645
01:24:59,399 --> 01:25:01,279
doing stuff for to your years. I don't know any

1646
01:25:01,319 --> 01:25:03,920
more what i'd start with now, because you know, it's

1647
01:25:04,199 --> 01:25:06,039
the books that I would have started with, and I've

1648
01:25:06,039 --> 01:25:08,880
probably seen this bit old hat now there was I

1649
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:10,840
just want to think there's a check called David Coley

1650
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:12,800
wrote a book about magic which is absolutely brilliant and

1651
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:16,640
I can't even see it. How's it gone? Yes, David

1652
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:20,079
Conway's Magic and O Cult Primer. Yeah, Magic and a

1653
01:25:20,199 --> 01:25:23,119
Cult Primer or David Conway one of the first books

1654
01:25:23,119 --> 01:25:26,880
I started with and was brilliant, really really was impressive

1655
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:28,600
that that's one of the things I first started with.

1656
01:25:29,279 --> 01:25:33,760
Books like that. Howce Houston's Mastering Witchcraft. I'm looking my

1657
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:36,800
shelf wich over read these titles. Another great book, sort

1658
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:40,239
of a Houston Mastering Witchcraft. These are the early ones

1659
01:25:40,239 --> 01:25:42,800
that came out, you know, with the real kind of

1660
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:45,359
revival of magic in the eighties. These are ones that

1661
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:50,039
definitely look into, but don't be afraid to try a

1662
01:25:50,079 --> 01:25:52,520
pass that might not see the ones that would normally

1663
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:53,920
go to, as I say, if you're sort of a

1664
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:57,199
North American white guy, try things like Voodo, have a

1665
01:25:57,199 --> 01:25:59,800
look at it, you know, look at some time. Magic

1666
01:26:00,039 --> 01:26:02,159
high a cult that is very tired. In Thailand is

1667
01:26:02,399 --> 01:26:03,560
quite a big thing at the moment. There is a

1668
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:05,279
guy called Peter Gents written a number of books on

1669
01:26:05,319 --> 01:26:07,239
the topic that has made it quite popular.

1670
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:10,600
Speaker 2: There's also I have a tie Sigel tattoo.

1671
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:16,039
Speaker 1: Ah, yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, ceremonial.

1672
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 2: Tattoo. Yeah he is tie, but he kind of meditates

1673
01:26:23,039 --> 01:26:25,840
and works with these deities to come up with the sigils.

1674
01:26:26,159 --> 01:26:28,399
Then he does a cleansing and a whole ceremony to

1675
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:29,119
do the tattoo.

1676
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:33,039
Speaker 1: Creating your own path, but based on some of the

1677
01:26:33,079 --> 01:26:35,359
already exists, is a great way of doing things. Is

1678
01:26:35,399 --> 01:26:39,439
a good way of moving forward and exploring. Donald Michael

1679
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:43,560
Craig wrote these seven lessons in Modern Magic. The title again,

1680
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:45,479
I've worked on my stats away an early book I

1681
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:47,680
read as well that was very good. So there are

1682
01:26:48,079 --> 01:26:51,399
good titles out there. I mean, I don't just decry anything.

1683
01:26:51,960 --> 01:26:54,439
Some books are better than I was, obviously, but trying

1684
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,640
to find the you look for the classics, look them up,

1685
01:26:56,680 --> 01:26:58,720
you know, see what good books to start with? Are

1686
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:01,760
those ones as time ones I've been in print for decades,

1687
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:04,520
you know they there must be something to just be

1688
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:07,159
in printing and that kind of thing. They obviously have value,

1689
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:10,760
but it is prepared to experiment and explore that. I

1690
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:13,800
found Islandic magic by chance. It was an exchange of

1691
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:16,119
the room stuff. But more you look into Icelandic staye

1692
01:27:16,119 --> 01:27:18,840
for magic. It's quite different to ruining magic. There's a

1693
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:21,359
real difference there, but you wouldn't necessarily realize.

1694
01:27:22,119 --> 01:27:28,000
Speaker 2: So in my advice would be don't pay people on

1695
01:27:28,239 --> 01:27:30,439
TikTok or Facebook for terror readings.

1696
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:34,840
Speaker 1: Yes, being an advocate of not doing that sort of

1697
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:37,800
thing online. I know people say that they get on

1698
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:40,479
my wings are really good, but there's a thing about

1699
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:43,239
the personal direct connection of someone sitting in front of

1700
01:27:43,319 --> 01:27:47,399
you that is more important than what we might get online.

1701
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:49,680
If you get find a great reader online, it works

1702
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:52,039
you fine, no problem, It's up to you entirely. But

1703
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:55,239
I think at least once or twice see one face

1704
01:27:55,279 --> 01:27:57,640
to face, work with them directly, and see you get

1705
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:01,520
from that. My advice at the school, well, I think

1706
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:03,840
we'll do the old closing out. As Steve likes to say,

1707
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:07,079
so hold tight always makes you laugh. Why he says that.

1708
01:28:07,119 --> 01:28:10,880
At the end, you have been listening to myself, Andy

1709
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:15,239
Merse and my wonderful co host Civestil discussing witchcraft and

1710
01:28:15,279 --> 01:28:18,000
magic tonight. So it's the topic that we've covered before,

1711
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:20,479
but I'll find it fascinating. It's a default topic we

1712
01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,319
can dropped into whenever he's ting to talk about. So

1713
01:28:23,359 --> 01:28:25,520
I hope you may have learned something interesting time on

1714
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:28,159
what you've been talking about, and it's just like to

1715
01:28:28,239 --> 01:28:30,600
say we were back in a couple of weeks with

1716
01:28:31,239 --> 01:28:34,600
probably our glorious leader, the old Steve Ward. I hope

1717
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:36,640
you back into his healthful I see him as our

1718
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:38,640
glorious leader. That makes him feel better to say that.

1719
01:28:40,239 --> 01:28:43,159
So I like to think everybody's involved, of course, as

1720
01:28:43,159 --> 01:28:45,880
Steve likes to mention, Irian a Blocker, and Mark Johnson

1721
01:28:46,239 --> 01:28:49,479
and myself for the co founders, if you like, are

1722
01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:52,359
the co managers of the station. I lo I am

1723
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:54,880
the moment, I'm just charging me on a little bit

1724
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,000
doing because both Mark and if Differents have taken a

1725
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:58,560
bit of a step back, so I'm sort of the

1726
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:00,840
head ho choke at the moment. She is quite nice

1727
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:04,720
and not sure he's a everything. I'm sure, but well,

1728
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:06,199
we will be back in a couple of weeks time

1729
01:29:06,279 --> 01:29:09,079
with a guest I suspect and talking about something else

1730
01:29:09,119 --> 01:29:12,439
I suspect. But until then, I hope you've enjoyed this

1731
01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:15,439
discussion of witchcraft magic and we'll see you again soon.

1732
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:19,640
Bye for now. Oh sorry, and my co host did

1733
01:29:19,720 --> 01:30:04,000
he says goodbye as well? Bye good night. I