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<v Speaker 1>You've probably felt it, haven't you, That unsettling feeling that

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<v Speaker 1>this whole digital revolution is kind of unleashing forces we

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<v Speaker 1>don't fully get. We see more surveillance power concentrating in

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<v Speaker 1>fewer hands, and sometimes it feels like we're well sliding

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<v Speaker 1>towards something more authoritarian.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's definitely a concern makes you wonder where we're.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually heading exactly. So today we're doing a deep dive

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<v Speaker 1>into something called hacker politics.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, and this isn't just about you know, the zeros

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<v Speaker 2>and ones, the technicals.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's the bigger picture how a growing movement really

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<v Speaker 1>is pushing back against those power concentrations and.

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<v Speaker 2>Actively trying to build democracy into cyberspace itself.

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<v Speaker 1>Our mission here is to unpack where this whole ethos

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<v Speaker 1>even came from.

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<v Speaker 2>Explore these escalating digital wars being fought over.

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<v Speaker 1>Our rights, and maybe uncover some you know, surprising experiments

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<v Speaker 1>in distributed democracy that might show a way forward.

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<v Speaker 2>And what's really key, I think, is that that hacker

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<v Speaker 2>ethos right from the start, has this deep anti authoritarian streak.

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<v Speaker 2>It's this idea that well, people empower mess up just

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<v Speaker 2>like anyone else, right, they're fallible, exactly an unchecked power

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<v Speaker 2>that leads to huge bugs, catastrophic bugs in any system.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a political view that loves human ingenuity, sees potential,

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<v Speaker 2>but always tries to stop things getting worse.

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<v Speaker 1>Even if the path to making them better isn't totally

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<v Speaker 1>clear yet.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, it's about harm reduction sometimes too.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so let's unpack that beginning. You said anti authoritarian,

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<v Speaker 1>But initially it wasn't really about breaking things, was it not?

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<v Speaker 2>In a malicious sense?

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<v Speaker 1>No.

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<v Speaker 2>The first spark back at places like MIT in the

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<v Speaker 2>fifties and sixties, right, it was this pure, almost childlike

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<v Speaker 2>desire to just understand these.

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<v Speaker 1>Machines, to ingest the magic as one source.

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<v Speaker 2>Put us, Yeah, exactly, to absorb, explore, push the boundaries.

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<v Speaker 2>These first wave hackers they believed in open access, free

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<v Speaker 2>flow of information.

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<v Speaker 1>That philosophy really set the stage, it absolutely did.

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<v Speaker 2>And then that impulse it evolved in the seventies you

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<v Speaker 2>see this second wave, especially around Berkeley, California.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah, the Homebrew Computer Club era.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the one groups like Homebrew, Champion Computers, and Code

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<v Speaker 2>for the People they were all about sharing source code,

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<v Speaker 2>sharing prototypes.

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<v Speaker 1>And this directly fed into the PC revolution. Like Wozniak

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<v Speaker 1>and the APPLEI.

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<v Speaker 2>Directly came right out of that collaborative open spirit. But

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<v Speaker 2>this wasn't just tech enthusiasm. It was the start of

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<v Speaker 2>a huge philosophical.

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<v Speaker 1>Split, open versus closed exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, would computing be this shared frontier open to everyone

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<v Speaker 2>or a bunch of walled gardens proprietary code you couldn't touch.

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<v Speaker 2>That tension born then really fueled decades of digital conflict.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great way to frame it. And meanwhile, over

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<v Speaker 1>in Germany something different was happening. The Chaos Computer Club

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<v Speaker 1>the CCC.

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<v Speaker 2>Right formed in eighty one, a very distinct counterculture group.

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<v Speaker 2>They were focused early on critical stuff like data laws, encryption, copyright,

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<v Speaker 2>real social impact issues.

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<v Speaker 1>And they had these strong moral standards very.

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<v Speaker 2>Much so they cared about the social consequences. Think about

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<v Speaker 2>their famous hack of biltrim tax BTAX, that early teletext system.

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<v Speaker 1>They exposed its flaws right to make a point.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, big security flaws and it wasn't taken lightly. It

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<v Speaker 2>led to a police raid on their Hamburg HQ in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, So you see that clash with authority really early on.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely, Then, of course the Internet changes everything connects everyone

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<v Speaker 2>up right. It brings these separate hacker communities together, fosters

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<v Speaker 2>a more unified philosophy, a shared language.

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<v Speaker 1>Almost, and that leads to more formal groups like the EFS.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, the Electronic Frontier Foundation founded in California in ninety two.

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<v Speaker 2>They became this crucial early advocate for users digital rights.

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<v Speaker 1>Providing legal defense for hackers, kind of like the CCC

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<v Speaker 1>was doing informally in a way.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, but more formalized, more focused on the legal battles

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<v Speaker 2>in the US context. It showed this growing need for

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<v Speaker 2>organized defense.

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<v Speaker 1>So with that groundwork laid, we get to the crypto wars, yes.

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<v Speaker 2>The battle over encryption. Yeah, you had visionaries like David

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<v Speaker 2>cham proposing really clever ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>Like mixed networks and blind signatures. What were those? Basically

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<v Speaker 1>there were.

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<v Speaker 2>Ways to anonymize your digital trail, scramble things so it's

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<v Speaker 2>super hard to see who's talking to whom, protecting privacy

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<v Speaker 2>at a technical.

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<v Speaker 1>Level, and this led to this cipherpunk Manifesto.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a real declaration. It basically said privacy is necessary.

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<v Speaker 1>We write code, meaning privacy isn't something governments or companies

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<v Speaker 1>will just give you.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely it has to be built, engineered into the systems themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>And the person who really tried to do that for

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<v Speaker 1>everyday people was Phil Zimmerman.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Phil Zimmerman, a reluctant hero in many ways. He

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<v Speaker 2>created Pretty Good Privacy PGP to.

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<v Speaker 1>Bring strong encryption to the masses, right, not just spies

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<v Speaker 1>and big companies.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is a direct challenge to the US government.

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<v Speaker 1>Because of the export restrictions. It tar treating crypto like

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<v Speaker 1>a weapon exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>The government wanted control, they wanted backdoors like the Clipper

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<v Speaker 2>chip I di. Zimmerman basically said nope, everyone needs strong.

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<v Speaker 1>Locks and he won ultimately.

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<v Speaker 2>Well public opinion plus huge resistance from Silicon Valley helped

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<v Speaker 2>defeat those specific government efforts. It was a massive early

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<v Speaker 2>win for digital rights.

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<v Speaker 1>So, if encryption is a form of digital independence, who

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<v Speaker 1>governs this space? That brings us to John Perry Barlow right.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, Yes, nineteen ninety six, his famous Declaration of the

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<v Speaker 2>Independence of Cyberspace.

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<v Speaker 1>What was the core message there?

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<v Speaker 2>It was bold. Addressing governments, he said, essentially, your power

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<v Speaker 2>comes from the consent of the governed. You don't have ours.

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<v Speaker 2>Cyberspace isn't within your borders.

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<v Speaker 1>A declaration of digital sovereignty.

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<v Speaker 2>A radical vision, hugely radical, but not everyone was so

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<v Speaker 2>utopian about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Laurence Lessig enters the picture right.

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<v Speaker 2>The legal scholar, He had a more well sobering take.

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<v Speaker 2>He argued, code, more than law, will soon determine what

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<v Speaker 2>kind of societies we live in. Meaning meaning while people

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<v Speaker 2>thought the Internet would always route around damage bypass censorship,

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<v Speaker 2>Lessigg saw that code could just as easily enable control.

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<v Speaker 1>Build censorship, and surveillance.

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<v Speaker 2>In exactly, it challenged that whole idea that the net

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<v Speaker 2>would inherently be free. The actual architecture, the code itself,

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<v Speaker 2>holds immense power. It shapes things in ways we might

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<v Speaker 2>not even see.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So, moving into the twenty first century, things seem

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<v Speaker 1>to get more overtly political in the hacking world. WikiLeaks

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<v Speaker 1>is a huge example.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely, Chelsea Manning's leaks, especially that collateral murder video. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that put WikiLeaks on the map globally.

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<v Speaker 1>And brought issues of government secrecy versus transparency right to

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<v Speaker 1>the public square.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And this era saw a kind of conscious redefining

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<v Speaker 2>of that cypherpunk idea. It shifted towards a new.

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<v Speaker 1>Mantra privacy for the weak transparency for the powerful.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the one a commitment to popular sovereignty, really demanding

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<v Speaker 2>accountability from power structures in the digital age.

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<v Speaker 1>And then Snowden twenty thirteen, that felt like a watershed moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, because what Lessig warned about Snowdent showed it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't theoretical. He exposed the NSA's bull Run program, and.

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<v Speaker 1>Their goal was basically total.

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<v Speaker 2>Surveillance pretty much. The document stated. The aim was make

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<v Speaker 2>it so that no one could communicate electronically without the

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<v Speaker 2>NSA being able to collect, store, and analyze the communication.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't just leak memos, he revealed the architecture of surveillance.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly how the infrastructure itself, the thing connecting us all,

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<v Speaker 2>had become this silent, pervasive tool to turn key tyranny

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<v Speaker 2>that cipherpunk's worried about.

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<v Speaker 1>It was real, demonstrably real.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and one leaked doc just chillingly laid it out

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<v Speaker 2>access what they needed on anyone, anywhere, anytime. That forced

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<v Speaker 2>a public reckoning.

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<v Speaker 1>So after Snowden exposed this massive surveillance apparatus, how did

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<v Speaker 1>that morph into what people now call the information wars?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you saw the techniques and anxieties bleed into the

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<v Speaker 2>political sphere in a new way. The twenty sixteen US

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<v Speaker 2>election is a prime example.

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<v Speaker 1>Allegations of Russian inner its bots right, and.

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<v Speaker 2>The way platforms like Facebook were used or misused. Think

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<v Speaker 2>about Cambridge Analytica harvesting data via Facebook's own tools their APIs.

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<v Speaker 1>And Julian Nosange's role in releasing hack emails during that

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<v Speaker 1>election raised huge questions about manipulating the political environment.

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<v Speaker 2>It did, and historians like Timothy Snyder argue that these

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<v Speaker 2>authoritarian methods, often pioneered elsewhere, have now migrated.

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<v Speaker 1>West, aiming to destroy what.

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<v Speaker 2>The shared belief in facts, in reality, that common ground

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<v Speaker 2>you absolutely need for democracy to even function.

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<v Speaker 1>Which connects to another battlefront. Net neutrality something we kind

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<v Speaker 1>of assumed was the default setting for the Internet.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was designed to be neutral. Anyone could connect,

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<v Speaker 2>anyone could offer a service, no gatekeepers throttling or prioritizing traffic.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's under threat. The FCC reclassified broadband as a

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<v Speaker 1>utility in twenty fifteen to protect neutrality, and then.

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<v Speaker 2>That was reversed under the Trump administration, which sparked renewed

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<v Speaker 2>calls for alternatives like public.

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<v Speaker 1>Broadband cities building their own net works exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Look at Chattanooga, Tennessee. They offer gigabit speeds directly to citizens.

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<v Speaker 2>It shows neutrality can be baked in if there's the

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<v Speaker 2>political will. It's a choice.

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<v Speaker 1>And these fights over control extend right down to the

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<v Speaker 1>software on our devices, don't they. The free software.

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<v Speaker 2>Wars absolutely Richard Stallman's g and U project and the

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<v Speaker 2>whole idea of the copyleft.

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<v Speaker 1>License that was about ensuring users had four key freedoms,

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<v Speaker 1>right to.

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<v Speaker 2>Run the software, to study the source code, to redistribute it,

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<v Speaker 2>and crucially to improve it, keeping it open and adaptable.

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<v Speaker 1>But then laws like the DMCA came along. Digital Millennium Copyright.

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<v Speaker 2>Act, Yeah, and that criminalized bypassing DRM Digital Rights Management

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<v Speaker 2>those locks companies put on software and media.

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<v Speaker 1>Creating these black boxes of code we can't inspect or modify,

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<v Speaker 1>even on things we supposedly own.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, it's like owning a house, but the builder keeps

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<v Speaker 2>the only key and decides when you can open the windows.

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<v Speaker 2>This led directly to the right to repair.

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<v Speaker 1>Movements for phones, tractors, everything, everything, because it highlights this

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<v Speaker 1>risk of well digital serfdom.

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<v Speaker 2>You own the physical object but the company controls its brain,

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<v Speaker 2>its software.

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<v Speaker 1>Which brings us to the giants Facebook, Google, Amazon, Apple.

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<v Speaker 1>Why do these digital platforms seem to inevitably become monopolies.

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<v Speaker 2>It's baked into their structure, often winner take all dynamics,

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<v Speaker 2>powerful network.

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<v Speaker 1>Effects, meaning the bigger they get, the more essential they become,

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<v Speaker 1>making it harder for rivals.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and their access to massive amounts of user data

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<v Speaker 2>creates huge barriers. Plus they often extract what some call

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<v Speaker 2>free labor.

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<v Speaker 1>Our likes, reviews, clicks, data.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all that value we create often doesn't flow back

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<v Speaker 2>to us. It becomes dead capital, locked up at the top,

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<v Speaker 2>contributing to inequality.

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<v Speaker 1>So there are calls now to treat them differently, break

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<v Speaker 1>them up, regulate.

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<v Speaker 2>Them, growing calls, yes, treat them like utilities. Perhaps Europe's GDPR,

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<v Speaker 2>the Data Protection Regulation, is one attempt to push back

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<v Speaker 2>on the data collection side.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so we've mapped out a lot of the problem

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<v Speaker 1>the digital wars. Let's shift focus. Where are we seeing

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<v Speaker 1>glimmers of hope, experiments and building something different, more democratic.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you can trace some of the energy back to

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<v Speaker 2>movements like Occupy in twenty eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>Which maybe didn't achieve all its immediate political goals right.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of physical space and policy change. It was complex,

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<v Speaker 2>but it massively raised public awareness about power inequality and

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<v Speaker 2>the need for more participation. It shifted the.

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<v Speaker 1>Conversation and laid groundwork for digital alternatives.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, so building on that energy, you have people

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<v Speaker 2>like Trevor Schultz advocating for platform cooperativism.

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<v Speaker 1>What's that exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>It's about creating alternative digital platforms that are structured as cooperatives,

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<v Speaker 2>owned and governed by their users.

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<v Speaker 1>Or workers, like Fermondo the co op marketplace, or farm.

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<v Speaker 2>Hack Yeah, or Inspiral the Network of Social Enterprises. The

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<v Speaker 2>idea is to build platforms that aren't extracted by design,

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<v Speaker 2>to show that a different, more equitable digital economy is possible.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds well, radically different. And what about newer technologies

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<v Speaker 1>like PDP systems.

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<v Speaker 2>Blockchain, huge potential there, potentially transformative. These could offer technical

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<v Speaker 2>solutions for decentralization and empowerment that just weren't.

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<v Speaker 1>Feasible before, things like censorship resistant file sharing, free net right.

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<v Speaker 2>Or decentralized money like bitcoin and ethereum. Whatever you think

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<v Speaker 2>of their current implementations, the idea is.

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<v Speaker 1>Powerful even decentralized social media mines, steamit platforms that maybe

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<v Speaker 1>pay users.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly flipping the model. And even Tim berners Lee, the

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<v Speaker 2>guy who invented the.

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<v Speaker 1>Web, he's working on something new.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a project called solid It's a decentralized linked data

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<v Speaker 2>system aiming to give users direct control over their own data,

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<v Speaker 2>breaking down those big tech silos.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's look at where this democracy hacked ideas actually

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<v Speaker 1>being tried out. Spain seems like a key example.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, the Indignatos movement there had real impact. Ata Colile

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<v Speaker 2>becoming mayor of Barcelona is one outcome.

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<v Speaker 1>And her group x net ran that campaign fifteen Parado Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Using crowdsourced info to expose corruption, which actually led to

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<v Speaker 2>the conviction of bankers like Rodrigo Rodo, a concrete example

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<v Speaker 2>of hacking power structures.

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<v Speaker 1>And there was also Partido X, an anonymous political.

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<v Speaker 2>Group fascinating experiment. They used online tools for massive public

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<v Speaker 2>participation to shape their entire electoral platform, directly involving citizens

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<v Speaker 2>and policy creation.

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<v Speaker 1>What about Italy any similar innovations?

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely you have the Hermes group who built global eks

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<v Speaker 2>and open source secure platform for whistleblowing that anyone can

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<v Speaker 2>set up.

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<v Speaker 1>Making leaking safer and more accessible.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, and their analysis of the Hacking Team hack was

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<v Speaker 2>really important.

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<v Speaker 1>Hacking Team sold surveillance tools to governments, right, black.

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<v Speaker 2>Box stuff exactly, and the hack exposed that code, raising

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<v Speaker 2>critical questions about provable security. Can you actually verify what

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<v Speaker 2>this software sold the government's does?

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<v Speaker 1>And in their politics, the Five Star movement uses a

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<v Speaker 1>digital platform.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, called Russo. It's like a digital operating system for

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<v Speaker 2>the party, allowing members to vote on candidates proposed policies,

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<v Speaker 2>a large scale experiment in direct digital democracy, warts and all.

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<v Speaker 2>Moving over to Canada, Andrew Clement's ix maps project is

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting. It visually maps the Internet's physical backbone.

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<v Speaker 1>And it showed Canadian Internet traffic often routes through the US.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, making it vulnerable to NSA surveillance, raising huge questions

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<v Speaker 2>about data sovereignty and who actually controls the Internet's physical pathways.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there's Ephylo, an algorithm to hack decision making itself.

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<v Speaker 2>Right John Richardson's project. It aims to mathematically distribute influence

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<v Speaker 2>fairly within groups making decisions. The vision is ambitious, potentially

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<v Speaker 2>even global democracy.

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<v Speaker 1>It's clear at acts of let's call it transgression have

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<v Speaker 1>always been part of challenging power. Like brilliant graffiti.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that huge mural of Trump and Boris Johnson kissing,

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<v Speaker 2>for instance. Yeah. Or think about modern digital memes. They

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<v Speaker 2>can be incredibly powerful forms of descent, sparking conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>But this descent, especially in the digital realm, carries real risks.

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<v Speaker 2>Huge risks. We've seen what some call a crack down

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<v Speaker 2>three point zero on hackers and activists.

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<v Speaker 1>Cases like Aaron Schwartz Jeremy Hammond.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly both faced incredibly aggressive prosecutions under the Computer Fraud

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<v Speaker 2>and Abuse Act the CFAA, a law.

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<v Speaker 1>Often criticized as outdated and overly harsh.

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<v Speaker 2>Very much so in these cases Sworts's tragic suicide, Hammond's

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<v Speaker 2>long sentence for the Stratford hack. They have a real

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<v Speaker 2>chilling effect on digital free expression in activism.

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<v Speaker 1>And the ongoing situations with Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange

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<v Speaker 1>underline the incredibly high state.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely exposing secrets of powerful states still carries immense personal cost.

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<v Speaker 1>So given those risks, how do these hacker ideas born

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<v Speaker 1>on the fringes start to become well mainstream?

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<v Speaker 2>It's fascinating, isn't it, But we are seeing it. Hacker ideas,

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<v Speaker 2>concerns about digital rights. They're permeating traditional institutions.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, like universities Mitard.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, MIT's Media Lab has a Disobedience Award. Harvard's Berkman

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<v Speaker 2>Klein Center is deeply engaged with Internet and society issues,

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<v Speaker 2>including hacker experiments.

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<v Speaker 1>And they're acknowledging past controversies too, like the ones involving

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<v Speaker 1>figures connected to the Media Lab.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, there's a growing willingness it seems to examine not

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<v Speaker 2>just the individuals, but the systems they operate within. It

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<v Speaker 2>suggests these aren't fringe issues anymore. They're central to our future.

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<v Speaker 1>Which brings us back to this idea of a moral imagination.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. Eban Maglan, the lawyer who defended Phil Zimmerman way back.

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<v Speaker 1>He advocates for the Freedom Box, a personal server in

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<v Speaker 1>every home.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. His point is fundamental users of technology have rights.

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<v Speaker 2>You must control the code on your devices, or it's

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<v Speaker 2>a form of what he calls slavery. If you don't

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<v Speaker 2>control the software, you don't own the thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Strong words very, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Then you have Yokai Benkler, the scholar of commons based

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<v Speaker 2>peer production.

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<v Speaker 1>Like Wikipedia, open source people collaborating without top down control exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Bankler believes we're at this crucial moment, a fork in

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<v Speaker 2>the road, and shift away from extractive capitalism towards cooperative

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<v Speaker 2>human systems. He uses this powerful line, it takes a

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<v Speaker 2>union to end slavery. It's about fundamentally rethinking how we

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<v Speaker 2>organize and collaborate.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's about seeing what's actually possible beyond the current system,

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<v Speaker 1>shaping that moral imagination.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely seeing what's truly feasible, not just accepting what exists,

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<v Speaker 2>and then having the courage to build it.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Okay, so we've journeyed from those early MIT hackers,

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<v Speaker 1>through some intense digital wars over privacy, truth control, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Up to these really innovative experiments trying to build distributed

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<v Speaker 2>democracy from the ground up.

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<v Speaker 1>This deep dive really shows just how profoundly code shapes

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<v Speaker 1>our societies, doesn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and how dedicated people and movements are pushing back

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<v Speaker 2>trying to reclaim that digital future.

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<v Speaker 1>And this isn't just some abstract story about tech wizards.

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<v Speaker 1>It's about you, the listener, understanding these forces shaping your world.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, Yeah, hopefully you now have a better sense

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<v Speaker 2>of the technical side but also the deep political dimensions

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<v Speaker 2>at play here.

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<v Speaker 1>So the big question, then, what does this all mean

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<v Speaker 1>for you? In this world where technology is constantly redrawing

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<v Speaker 1>the lines of.

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<v Speaker 2>Power, What concrete steps can any of us take?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what will you do to help ensure technology serves people,

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<v Speaker 1>serves humanity, and actually helps build a future that's genuinely

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<v Speaker 1>free and democratic.

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<v Speaker 2>That opportunity, that challenge to code for democracy, It isn't

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<v Speaker 2>just for the elite programmers. It's really an invitation for

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<v Speaker 2>all of us.