WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:02.919 That even his own staffers have grown uneasy about the 2 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:05.960 inner workings of the White House, especially as they relate 3 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.960 to a certain presidential staffer. Natalie Harp Let's discuss with 4 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:12.199 New York Times reporter Maggie Haverman. 5 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:14.679 She is the one of the co authors of. 6 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:17.559 The new book Regime Change. It is a New York 7 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:20.679 Times bestseller. And Maggie, great to see you. Thanks for 8 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:21.359 coming on the show. 9 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:22.320 Thank you for having me. 10 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:24.920 Yeah, it's been too long. We haven't caught up in 11 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:25.839 a while as well. 12 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:26.960 It's like old. 13 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:29.239 Times congratulations on everything. 14 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:30.600 Oh, thank you, and you as well. 15 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.399 I mean, I think I saw what it's now eight 16 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.439 weeks now on the bestseller lists. 17 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:36.960 Wonderful. 18 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:41.240 Thank you. No, Jonathan and I were, it's gone beyond 19 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:44.520 anything that we could have hoped. We're immensely grateful that 20 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:45.560 people are reading it. 21 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:49.200 Yeah, and it's hard work putting a book out, I know, 22 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:53.079 and it's you know, it can be so stressful. And 23 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:55.439 I'm sure you're already getting hit up with the ideas. 24 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:56.520 Hey, can we do a second book? You know, the 25 00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:57.560 term's not over yet. 26 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:01.320 And that's not just we're not going to go over 27 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:05.680 great with our with our with our families. But that's okay. 28 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:06.599 Here we are. 29 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:07.799 I hear you, I know you. 30 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:12.319 There's so many different places to start, Maggie, and you've 31 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:15.200 been doing terrific reporting obviously on the second term, so 32 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:16.239 as Jonathan Swan. 33 00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:19.040 You guys are both a great team. 34 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.760 I guess we I guess we could start with the 35 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:24.719 Natalie Harp stuff. I don't know it it is sort 36 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:27.280 of is it symbolic of a lot of the problems 37 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:28.879 that they have inside the White House? 38 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.560 Uh? And I think what is really interesting. 39 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:34.840 These days is the way that I guess other staffers 40 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.719 have been leaking and in some cases showing reporters photographs 41 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:41.239 of things that indicate that there may be a problem 42 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.879 with Natalie Harp and uh. And she's of course the 43 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:47.560 young stafford who has been sort of at Donald Trump's 44 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:48.719 side here everywhere he goes. 45 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:50.560 There's this ms NOW reporting. 46 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:52.719 And perhaps you picked up on some of this too 47 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:55.120 when you have your conversations with Staffords that it. 48 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:55.840 Took her a year. 49 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:59.120 I think it was to get a security clearance, and 50 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:01.719 you know, just to kind of start with the news, 51 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:04.319 I guess you declined multiple times over more than a 52 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:06.760 year to seek a routine security clearance that you know, 53 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:08.800 and I remember from my White House. 54 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.159 Days that was supposed to be a pretty important thing. 55 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:14.360 What do you make of I guess the thing that 56 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:16.800 is disturbing is, yes, you know, she waited a year 57 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:18.960 to get a security clearance, and I guess maybe she 58 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:20.479 had to be talked into it by Donald Trump. But 59 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:24.120 the fact that the staffers are leaking this and they're 60 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:25.120 uncomfortable with this? 61 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:26.159 What have you made of that? 62 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:29.719 So we don't have the same reporting that MS now 63 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:33.280 does that you know. Our understanding is that she was 64 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:36.680 granted a temporary clearance the way that I think almost 65 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:40.159 half of the current staff were and possibly all of 66 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.159 them on January twentieth when they came in, and that 67 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:45.680 she then did fill out her paperwork. But again I 68 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:47.400 haven't seen the timing of the paperwork. I don't know. 69 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.319 We just done the same reporting on this. But the 70 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:56.680 concerns about Heart predate this White House. Jonathan and I 71 00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:00.360 get in depth in the book about how you know 72 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:03.280 she was with Trump as a handful of staffers were 73 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:06.439 when he was at his lowest. She came in and 74 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.080 I think it was either twenty twenty one or twenty 75 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:11.479 twenty two she started out doing press things, you know, 76 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:14.919 things with media response, and then at some point she 77 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:18.759 started accompanying him on the golf course, providing him with 78 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:22.840 pieces of positive news. She started carrying around a portable printer, 79 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:25.439 which is why her colleagues on the campaign began referring 80 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:27.800 to her as the human printer because she was battery 81 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:30.639 operated and so forth. When she would go to court 82 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.520 with him for the Alvin Bragg trial in twenty twenty 83 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:36.439 four Manhattan, which was the one case in which she 84 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:42.960 was convicted, criminally convicted, she would sit separate from the 85 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:46.599 rest of the staff. There were a lot of tensions always, 86 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.159 and I know that people would like to attribute it 87 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:54.400 to a food fight. You know, obviously Trump is running 88 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.199 something of a court, and how people react to that 89 00:03:57.240 --> 00:03:59.800 court is and engage in that court and try to 90 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.759 hockey for position is reel. We saw it in term one. 91 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:07.080 It's much more pronounced now. But it was also that 92 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.080 this secret service was alarmed in part because she had 93 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:14.639 left him these letters in his personal spaces that Jonathan 94 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.399 about the book, one of which said, you know you 95 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:18.360 are all that matters to me. 96 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:19.519 You know. 97 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:22.399 They were very emotional, and she is the most devoted 98 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.360 of his aids. So the way that I look at it, Jim, 99 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:30.120 is that she is the purest distillation of how Trump 100 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.360 has totally remade the presidency for term two. That there 101 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:37.399 were elements of this in term one. There were people 102 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:41.079 who could play some version of this role, not like this, 103 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.199 and this is really her entire role is being able 104 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:48.480 to respond if he needs something. And you know, there 105 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:52.120 have been other people who feel similar, you know, sort 106 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:55.360 of comfort blanket roles for him. Boris Epstein, his top 107 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:59.920 legal living wit won Michael Cohen in his day was 108 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.720 one at Trump Teler. But we haven't seen this in 109 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:05.319 the White House this way way. 110 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:08.079 Yeah, So this goes way beyond Hope picks in the 111 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.279 first term. This goes beyond like Johnny mcintee. I remember 112 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:15.319 him during the first term, and is it because does 113 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.160 any even have to do do you think with his 114 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:22.560 cognitive state, his state of mind, why does he need 115 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:27.240 this this devotion, this cult like devotion during this second 116 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:28.240 second go round. 117 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:30.319 I don't think it has anything to do with with 118 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.040 you know, age or anything like that. I think other 119 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.360 than that when people become sort of a more pronounced 120 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:40.120 version of themselves, the older, they get loyalty as we know, 121 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:42.759 has always been the coin of the realm. You know, 122 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:45.879 so has a willingness to do what he wants in 123 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.439 terms of, you know, not just being prepared to provide 124 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:52.519 positive information. But she is a conduit not just for 125 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:54.720 him to reach other people who he sees defending him 126 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:58.000 on television, but for other people to reach him through 127 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:01.959 you know, not going through the press office, not going 128 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:05.240 through the chief of staff, not going through official channels, 129 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:07.519 not going through the staff secretary in the White House. 130 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:11.360 And that is how he wants it. He wants information fast, 131 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:13.199 he wants This has always been who he is. You 132 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:18.199 know this, you covered him. He has rebuilt this White 133 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:22.079 House in a tremendously personalist way. It trickles down to everything. 134 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.680 And so to me, this is just a this is 135 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.680 a living, breathing example of that. 136 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:28.839 Wow. 137 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:34.240 Okay, that's really fascinating. And I guess, you know, getting 138 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:37.759 to his state of mind and where he is right now. 139 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:39.600 I mean, you know, one of the things that has 140 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:42.800 been really strange to me this time around. 141 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:44.639 Is, you know, he falls asleep. 142 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:49.199 He seems to have physical problems, the bruises on the hands. 143 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:51.879 I mean, I don't recall him ever falling asleep in 144 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:53.879 the Oval office I covered him during the first time, 145 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.040 or really anywhere. He was kind of an energetic guy. 146 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:00.160 You can say whatever you want about him, and he 147 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.000 seems to be obsessed with I mean it not seems 148 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:07.160 he is obsessed with remaking the White House, remaking buildings 149 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:09.639 in the nation's capital, putting his name on things. I mean, 150 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:12.040 just the other day he was talking about flag poles 151 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.040 and other stuff. 152 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.040 You know, the gold stuff that's everywhere. Just to get 153 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:18.360 to one of the questions. 154 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.000 I wanted to ask you, yeah, please, maybe more than 155 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.680 anything during this, Maggie, do you think that he's all there? 156 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.120 I have no indication that he's I mean obviously that 157 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:29.120 I'm not a doctor, and we don't see him as 158 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:31.120 often as we used to. I mean, that is that 159 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:33.360 is very true what you said at the top of 160 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:35.959 this about just this this bit that you were asking about, 161 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:38.800 you know, physical problems. I mean, it's not there's no question. 162 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:40.720 I mean, the bruising on the hand has been going 163 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:44.199 on for two years, maybe a little under. The answer 164 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.319 that we've always gotten when we asked about it is 165 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.360 that you know, it's from handshaking and because he you know, 166 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.720 gets marks on his hand. That's always been a little 167 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.959 hard to understand. He takes a very large aspirin regimen. 168 00:07:57.439 --> 00:07:59.160 You know, AskMen can be used as a blood dinner, 169 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.519 but he is taking a dose that, according to what 170 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:05.560 I have read from experts, is quite large. There is 171 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.759 the swelling of the ankles, there's the as you said, 172 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.959 there's the eye closure, which is either sleeping or transcendental 173 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:15.800 meditation or god knows what, but the I mean, you know, 174 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.360 he also then can open his eyes and it's clearly awake. 175 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.680 I don't know and heard some of it. I don't 176 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:22.639 know quite what that is. I do know when he 177 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:25.800 was in court in twenty twenty four, he was sleeping 178 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:27.839 at times and then other times he was just closing 179 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:29.319 his eyes, and it seemed to be just sort of 180 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:34.919 putting himself somewhere else. But he's eighty and they are 181 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:38.720 not transparent about his health. He had been taking more 182 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:42.039 frequent trips to Walter Reed, and they have released less 183 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:44.440 and less information. He said that he was seen by 184 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.559 twenty two specialists. I don't even know who that could be. 185 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.440 But these are all valid questions for a president. But 186 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.799 I will say that Jonathan and I spent an hour 187 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.480 with him in for a fact checking interview for this book, 188 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:04.720 and we did not detect really anything different with him 189 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:06.960 in terms of his engagement with us, in terms of 190 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.039 the questions that he was answering, in terms of how 191 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:13.200 this interview was going. Obviously, he tells stories that last longer, 192 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:15.720 and he speaks his speaking style is slower, which happens 193 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:19.399 when people get older. I did not notice a difference. 194 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:22.120 But again we see it. We only see what we see. 195 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:24.799 Yeah, no, that's true. And it was during that was 196 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:26.039 it during that interview where. 197 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:30.000 He started talking about Mao and Stalin and Hitler and 198 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:31.000 antilobehont and all. 199 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.679 What was I mean? What was that? I mean? Because 200 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.399 I do think this time around, and it does tie 201 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.399 to the theme of your book that yeah. 202 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:46.399 Yeah, that there's there's there's a want to be authoritarian autocrat. 203 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:48.600 You know, if you want to be diplomatic about it, 204 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:51.000 you could just say he aspires to be, you know, 205 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.919 thought of in that category of really bad people. 206 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:55.759 I don't know what that means? What what what do 207 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:56.559 you take away from it? 208 00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:59.440 Well, so what happened in that in that moment is 209 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:05.080 and that also actually involved Natalie Harp. We had been 210 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.679 asking for this interview for a while, and we wanted 211 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:09.440 a fact checking interview. We did not want to do 212 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.799 Open Mic Night with Donald Trump. And he's given very 213 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:17.279 few of these longer interviews this term. You know, he 214 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.080 did many of them last time, but it's been much 215 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.360 more of a controlled environment this time. He does take 216 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.600 lots of phone calls from reporters, but those calls last 217 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.080 a pretty brief amount of time and he generally sets 218 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.639 the terms of them. So we started asking through the 219 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.360 Press office in January, and we were really at the 220 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.320 end of our reporting process, with the exception of a 221 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:40.200 couple of pieces, and the main one would be the 222 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:44.879 Iran War, but which hadn't begun yet. We were getting installed. 223 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.720 The Press Office was not, you know, not complying, or 224 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:50.519 I should say not complying, but they just were telling 225 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:53.000 us this wasn't going to happen. So finally we went 226 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:57.320 directly to him and we both texted him, we called him. 227 00:10:57.879 --> 00:10:59.960 He didn't actually respond to us, he did direct to 228 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:03.120 his comms team to set this interview up. And so 229 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:05.480 we came in March sixteenth, and it's the seventeenth day 230 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:08.240 of the war, and neither Jonathan nor I had been 231 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.879 in the Oval office. Actually this term, we have a 232 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:13.480 pretty big White House team. We're not in the pool 233 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:15.720 as often as we used to be. The White House 234 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:21.240 controls the outlets they're there, so it's really a censorial 235 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:25.279 kind of overload with all of the gold everywhere. It 236 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.360 was really I mean, remember he put like nothing up 237 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.399 last time. I think there was like a Ruster two 238 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:33.600 and some pictures on the credenza behind him. There is 239 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:35.759 not an inch of that office that is not covered 240 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:37.320 at this point. And we had heard that he was 241 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.480 putting up these old Challenge coins and indeed there they were. 242 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:45.799 So it's weird. Well, he's you know, he is obsessed 243 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.039 with design. He was in New York. That's what he 244 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.000 likes talking about. He likes talking about construction projects and 245 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:53.399 building and so forth. But to the extent that he 246 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.799 is very determined to make it hard to sort of 247 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:59.639 not make his presence felt this time. That was the 248 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:03.440 exact sample. So that was he started talking to us 249 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.240 about maple trees, and he didn't have he wasn't showing 250 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:09.120 us maps of the Middle East or anything like that. 251 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.240 He held up these pictures and he said, I'm picking 252 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.679 trees for the White House. Maple trees. I'm good at 253 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:17.799 picking trees, something like that. Then there were the you know, 254 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.799 models of the ballroom. There were pictures of the models 255 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.360 of the ballroom, and that are the columns. These are 256 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:27.720 for Rome. These are evocative of Athens. So about fifteen 257 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:31.840 minutes in we asked him a question about power, because 258 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.480 we knew that he had been telling people that he 259 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.399 was the most powerful president there had been, and he 260 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.480 had said publicly that you know, no other president would 261 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:42.799 do half the shit I've done, and so that was 262 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:44.960 the quote. So we asked him, were you the most 263 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:47.159 powerful he was president there has been? You know, do 264 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:49.960 you see it that way? And he sat and he 265 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:52.600 thought about it for a second and he said, you know, Natalie, 266 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.360 go get the I'm paraphrasing, but it was get the 267 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.600 pages from the historian. And she goes off and she 268 00:12:57.639 --> 00:12:59.919 comes back with these three copies of a two pager. 269 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.840 I get one, Jonathan gets one. Trump gets one. And 270 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.960 Jonathan was to my right and he says, do you 271 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:08.200 know who Gary Player is? And we weren't really sure 272 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:10.720 where this was going. And Gary Player is a famous golfer. 273 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.039 He said that Gary Player had a historian who had 274 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:17.600 all these thoughts about Trump the Trump presidency and wrote 275 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:20.440 them up and wanted Trump to see it. And the 276 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:23.159 first paragraph was Donald Trump is the most powerful person 277 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.440 who has ever walked the face of the earth. On paraphsing, 278 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:27.759 but again that was really it. And then it goes 279 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:32.080 on to describe what Trump calls the top ten of histories, 280 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:37.360 conquerors and monsters, Attila the Hunt, Genghis Khan now Stalin, 281 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:40.960 Napoleon Hitler, Alexander the Great, I don't remember if by 282 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:48.440 Sibilian the Conqueror, Tamerlane, the Caesars, and Trump was the 283 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:50.679 thesis here was that Trump was more powerful than these 284 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:53.360 people because he has the US military, because of the 285 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:57.759 ability to travel, and because he's willing to use his power. 286 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.600 And he was not talking about it from any moral dimension. 287 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:07.480 It was literally just power, and with the hyperboleas side, 288 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:09.600 it was in terms of the most powerful ever to walk 289 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:15.159 the planet. He was really presenting to us essentially the 290 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:18.000 thesis of our book, which is this massive expansion of 291 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.960 executive power and the prison through which we were looking 292 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:25.240 at this first fourteen months back. So he is he 293 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:30.519 is in our reporting, Jim focused on being you know, 294 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.600 a capital G grade man of history. You know, he 295 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:41.240 is determined to be remembered. That is also what the 296 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:45.720 monuments to sell for about. But that is not necessarily 297 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:47.559 what voters elected him to do. 298 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:51.039 Yeah, and I want to bring in our Tommy Christopher 299 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:51.759 here in just a moment. 300 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.120 But just to button that up. You know, Maggie, you 301 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.799 and I both are from Earth one. We understand what 302 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:00.679 you know. You know how they things work. 303 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:04.120 When great presidents come along in the United States, we 304 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:08.120 build monuments to them, we remember them, usually after they're gone. 305 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:11.320 Trump wants to do this while he's alive. Do you 306 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:16.039 have any insight as to why that is? Because I mean, 307 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.960 to me, I'm not there every day. I'm not reporting 308 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.879 on him anymore, day in and day out. It just 309 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:25.039 seems totally nuts to me. It's just and I you know, 310 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:26.759 I do my thing now. I don't have to hear 311 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:30.120 the standards office who says, how can you say he's 312 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:32.440 totally nuts? But that just strikes me as totally nuts. 313 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:34.720 What are your insights into why he does this? 314 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:37.879 I don't think I don't think it's I don't think 315 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.320 it's nuts because I actually think it's completely consistent with 316 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.720 who he is. It's just he's always been Yeah. I mean, 317 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:45.840 I think it's like I just look at it slightly differently. 318 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.279 There's absolutely no precedent in the US for a sitting 319 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.600 president to dedicate monuments to themselves. In fact, presidents have 320 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.480 historically not done that when people have suggested it. And 321 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:01.519 in the case of the Kennedy Center, that was a 322 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:07.679 a congressionally created memorial to an assassinated president, and it 323 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:13.919 was partly intended to evoke and honor what John Kennedy 324 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.200 focused on as part of his rebuke of control of 325 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.879 the arts in the Cold War by by autocratic countries. 326 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:24.480 In fact, it was about that, you know, we are 327 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:28.840 we the US capital, We you know, are are inviting 328 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.759 of of culture and and we are interested in different 329 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:36.600 forms of art. And so putting his name on the 330 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.120 Kennedy Center is, you know, is one aspect and and 331 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.639 that really that really infuriated and upset a lot of 332 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:46.919 people who have been cocted with Kennedy Center of over 333 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:48.480 a long period of time. He took control of the 334 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.159 board early on. He started talking about that during the 335 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:53.360 transition and our reporting, and we get into this in 336 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:57.000 the book. He has always put his name on everything. 337 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.919 One of the one of the underappreciated and little remembered 338 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.079 facts of his time in New York is as a 339 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:09.799 businessman well as a real estate developer. I should say 340 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.839 in the nineteen eighties he at least one occasion sued 341 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.920 someone who or or an entity that had the name 342 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:24.559 Trump on their storefront, you know, for like some kind 343 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:27.359 of an infringement. It was just you know, it's somebody 344 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.680 else's name. And he has used lawsuits, and he has 345 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:35.759 put his name on his own tower, and he watched 346 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:39.119 in twenty sixteen as his name was taken down from 347 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:43.279 buildings and in New York, he watched the City of 348 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.400 New York take back possession of a golf course that 349 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:48.319 he at least from the city in the Bronx. He 350 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.119 actually ended up winning that back in a court fight. 351 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.920 So you know, in our reporting, it's not just consistent 352 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:57.400 with who he is and who's always been, which is 353 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:01.480 seeing himself as separate from this presidency, but it's doing 354 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:05.400 everything he can to make sure that that he can't 355 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:06.519 be a waste this time. 356 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.759 Yeah, can't be a racist. I think that's a big 357 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:14.119 part of Let's bring in Tommy Christopher. Tommy does our 358 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.440 daily newsletter now Former Media reporter but also former colleague 359 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:19.119 of Maggie Abram. 360 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.160 We were all colleagues. Yeah, that's right here and there 361 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:23.720 over the years. And Tommy, did you want to what 362 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:25.559 were some of your questions? 363 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:25.880 Yeah? 364 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:28.799 First of all, I was such an honor to talk 365 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.000 to you, Maggie. I want to dive right in because 366 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:33.440 I know we don't have much time, and I do. 367 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:35.119 I just had two questions that I want to hope 368 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:37.720 I can get to them. Yeah. My first question is 369 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.039 I've been wanting to ask you this. Trump has attacked 370 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:43.599 you on many occasions and I hate to say it 371 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:46.440 out loud, but we're all reporters here. He called you maggot, 372 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.240 which is one of the most disgusting things I could 373 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:50.599 think of the call of person. And I wanted to 374 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.720 know have you confronted him about that and did he apologize? 375 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:54.559 That's my first question. 376 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:57.200 No, and no, and I don't I don't care he 377 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.079 can say like never never came back. 378 00:18:59.640 --> 00:18:59.799 No. 379 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:01.759 I mean it's I would rather hear him answer my 380 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:05.480 questions about what I want before one instead of argue 381 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:09.839 about you know, the name calling, which is is expansive 382 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:11.160 and it's. 383 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:14.720 Like you've known him for so long and he's known 384 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:17.640 you for some I mean professionally, I don't know. I mean, 385 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.640 it's just but you know what props to you for 386 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.200 being able to not personalize. 387 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:27.720 Yeah, it's not. It's just we have a job to do. 388 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.519 He's going to do what he's going to do, and 389 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:34.160 like I would rather use time to get information a questions. 390 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.799 Let me be the first to say, for you stop 391 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:37.200 that ship. 392 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:38.440 All right. 393 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.119 So here's my other question, because I heard you talking 394 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.279 to Jim and you know, he said, you know you, 395 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:46.039 I hear you saying that you haven't seen a change 396 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.960 in Trump's cognition. But I mean you're I'm not. 397 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:53.440 I'm not a doctor, So like that's what I'm saying. 398 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.799 That's yeah, so you have you have eyes and ears. 399 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:58.920 You know, we all see Trump. He says crazy stuff 400 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.880 all the time. He says race stuff, He tells insaying 401 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.000