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<v Speaker 1>What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're going to head back out the Moscow

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<v Speaker 1>and we're going to pick up where we left off

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<v Speaker 1>with the IgG hearing transcripts, and once again we have

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<v Speaker 1>and Taylor doing the questioning and mister Helwig doing the answering. Question. So,

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<v Speaker 1>in this lab process to get to the SNP, to

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<v Speaker 1>get to the upload file, it sounds like there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of steps along the way. Answer, it's pretty complicated process. Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Question is it important to keep lab notes or a

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<v Speaker 1>bench notes or have procedures or protocols? Answer? Yes, I

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<v Speaker 1>think that it's pretty important and standard practice amongst forensic

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<v Speaker 1>DNA testing laboratories in general. You're going to adhere to

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<v Speaker 1>a quality management program. You're going to have procedures, protocols,

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<v Speaker 1>and policies that tell you what to do, tell you

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<v Speaker 1>how to do it, tell you what samples to use,

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<v Speaker 1>what personnel can be can do the analysis and technical review,

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<v Speaker 1>and so on and so forth. It's a whole quality

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<v Speaker 1>structure that gives support and credence to reliable results, and

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<v Speaker 1>that would include protocols SOPs. It would also include case documentation,

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<v Speaker 1>laboratory notes about what you did, how you did it,

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<v Speaker 1>chain of custody, documents, electronic records as needed, and hopefully

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<v Speaker 1>at the end of it, a report that includes conclusions

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<v Speaker 1>and information about what was done. Question, why do you

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<v Speaker 1>want to do all of that? Answer? First of all,

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<v Speaker 1>within the forensic DNA community, it's part of our accreditation

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<v Speaker 1>process in some of the standards that we adhere to

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<v Speaker 1>as a community. Second, it's just best practice, the holding

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<v Speaker 1>of the records, using them, creating them, and retaining them.

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<v Speaker 1>You never know if you're going to need to refer

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<v Speaker 1>back to them in your own notes or we mandate

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<v Speaker 1>a technical review of all this date so a second

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<v Speaker 1>quality analyst will look over all of your laboratory notes,

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<v Speaker 1>all the work you did, and your reports and make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that they agree with it and would come out

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<v Speaker 1>to the same conclusions. And for discovery requests. At IMF,

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<v Speaker 1>we have typical documentation that we would send our clients

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<v Speaker 1>that would include a report and all of the case

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<v Speaker 1>notes and laboratory documentation associated with that. Outside of that,

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<v Speaker 1>we oftentimes get requests for more than that information. What

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<v Speaker 1>is our validations? What is our quality manual competency test

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<v Speaker 1>for our personnel their training and education? A whole list

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<v Speaker 1>of support documents that are within our quality management system

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<v Speaker 1>that also are important in accreditation of our laboratory. Question

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<v Speaker 1>before you became a five oh one C three, was

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<v Speaker 1>your laboratory accredited? Answer? Even before becoming a five oh

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<v Speaker 1>one C three Since the inception of the company in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen, even before we no longer did laboratory operations,

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<v Speaker 1>we got accredited by ANABIO one seven zero two five

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<v Speaker 1>that was on our credation scope included traditional forensics STRs

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<v Speaker 1>y STRs, and eventually we included within our scope forensic SNPs,

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<v Speaker 1>massively parallel sequencing that encompasses a credation for this whole

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<v Speaker 1>genome sequencing and support of forensic investigative genetic genealogy that

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<v Speaker 1>we did. Question is there a set of guidelines or

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<v Speaker 1>rules that apply to the work with DNA to split

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<v Speaker 1>that DNA water balloon? Open answer? Yeah, I think you've

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<v Speaker 1>heard testimony to that. There's accredation standards ISO one seven

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<v Speaker 1>zero two five is the big one, as well as

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<v Speaker 1>the Federal Bureau of Investigation Quality Assurance standards for forensic

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<v Speaker 1>DNA testing laboratories. Those are common, I would say, more

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<v Speaker 1>so almost require within the forensic DNA community, and those

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<v Speaker 1>are standards that dictate our quality management system as a whole,

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<v Speaker 1>what we do, how we do it, how we support it,

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<v Speaker 1>how we document, and how we report. Question is that important?

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<v Speaker 1>So there is public trust in what you do? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>More so public trust for sure, but reliability in reproducibility

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<v Speaker 1>of results, transparency and just in sharing of full quality

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<v Speaker 1>behind your conclusions and reports. Question, mister Hellwig, you mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>the size of the two SNP profiles for ged match

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<v Speaker 1>pro and Family Tree DNA. Five hundred and fifty thousand

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<v Speaker 1>or six hundred and fifty thousand seemed to be the

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<v Speaker 1>maximums If you had a case where you had produced

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<v Speaker 1>file to upload and upload file and it had let's

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<v Speaker 1>say six hundred thousand in it, could you take that

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<v Speaker 1>text file and turn it into twice that big answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure how we would do that. No, an

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<v Speaker 1>important note here, that was just IMF's policy. We generated

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<v Speaker 1>upload file specific to each of the databases, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>the number we had within our bioinformatic package. That's not

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily what would be true of others. That being said,

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<v Speaker 1>if theoretically we were to deliver our upload file to

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<v Speaker 1>our client and did say had five hundred thousand SNPs

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<v Speaker 1>on it. I don't know of a mechanism to add

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<v Speaker 1>SNPs in that manner without going back to our raw data.

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<v Speaker 1>Question in this particular case, I know you haven't gotten

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<v Speaker 1>involved in all of the ins and outs, But did

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<v Speaker 1>we provide to you what we received in regular discovery

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<v Speaker 1>the Authroom file and the FBI file upload files? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I did receive two upload files. One was the text

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<v Speaker 1>file that came from Authroom Labs, and one was an

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<v Speaker 1>XL file that came from the FBI. Question is that

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<v Speaker 1>also an upload file? Answer? Yep. Both of them are

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<v Speaker 1>upload files. They contain exactly that, a listing of SNPs,

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<v Speaker 1>the call and their location in a format that would

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<v Speaker 1>allow them to be uploaded to databases. Question what was

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<v Speaker 1>the difference in size? Answer? The FBI upload file had

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<v Speaker 1>significantly more SNPs called than the Authroom file. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>able to go deep into it. I don't know exactly

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<v Speaker 1>how many more, but there was more SNPs called within

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<v Speaker 1>the upload file for the FBI than there was with

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<v Speaker 1>the authroom file. Question and since the Authroom file is

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<v Speaker 1>smaller and it is a text file, can you tell

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<v Speaker 1>how the FBI got so much more data, so many

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<v Speaker 1>more SNPs. Answer. No, that's kind of the important part here.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no documentation to say how this happened, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>really the important part, right. I have no reason to

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<v Speaker 1>believe that AUTHORAM laboratories did anything wrong to obtain their profile.

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<v Speaker 1>I just don't have the documentation to show me how

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<v Speaker 1>that came to be. Same with the FBI file. There's

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<v Speaker 1>no documentation or notes or bench or report to say

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<v Speaker 1>this is what I had, this is what I did,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is now what I have. So I'm unsure

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<v Speaker 1>of how that came to be. And Taylor, thank you,

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<v Speaker 1>your honor. If I may just have a moment to

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<v Speaker 1>check with my team, mister Helwig, that's all I have.

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<v Speaker 1>The prosecutor might have some for you. The court go ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>So now we have the cross examination starting by mister

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<v Speaker 1>and I question, mister Helwig. I want to start with

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<v Speaker 1>your accreditation testimony. Did I hear you correctly that your

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<v Speaker 1>lab was accredited since inception in twenty nineteen? Answer? Our

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<v Speaker 1>laboratory was accredited for traditional forensics. We began the accreditation

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty nineteen, and I believe the first accreditation scope

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<v Speaker 1>we received was in twenty twenty for forensic SNPs. Our

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<v Speaker 1>accreditation was January twentieth of twenty twenty three. I believe.

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<v Speaker 1>Question so you weren't accredited back in twenty nineteen for

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<v Speaker 1>forensic SNPs. Correct answer correct, we weren't actually doing forensic

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<v Speaker 1>SNPs at the time. Question but you were working on

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<v Speaker 1>forensicas NP cases prior to your accreditation? Correct answer, No,

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<v Speaker 1>we specifically reserve working on these SNP cases until we

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<v Speaker 1>were accredited. Question Okay, do you recall describing the accreditation

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<v Speaker 1>process as a chicken and egg problem? Answer? I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Question you testified you work at or work for inter

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<v Speaker 1>Mountain Forensics. Answer that's correct. Question do you post on

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<v Speaker 1>their website? Answer is sometimes yeah. Question do you post

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<v Speaker 1>in your name Danny Holwig? Answer certainly. Question you don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to call posting in June of twenty twenty about

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<v Speaker 1>accreditation being a chicken and egg problem? Answer I don't recall.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm certain that that that statement is on there and

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<v Speaker 1>I would need to recollect. Certainly. Question I'm happy to

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<v Speaker 1>show you this answer that would be great. Ms Taylor,

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<v Speaker 1>May I also see it, mister Nye. Sure document handed

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<v Speaker 1>to the witness the witness. Yeah, yeah, I recall that,

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<v Speaker 1>mister Nye. Okay, so do you now recall describing it

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<v Speaker 1>as a chicken and egg problem? Answer? Absolutely, it was

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<v Speaker 1>several years ago. I appreciate the refresh of memory. Question sure.

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<v Speaker 1>In that same post, you talked about how you appreciated

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<v Speaker 1>the trust of those that were using you before you

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<v Speaker 1>were accredited. Right answer correct. Yes. Question do you feel

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<v Speaker 1>like your work before accreditation was less or lower quality

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<v Speaker 1>than after? Answer no, absolutely not. Question. I also want

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to you about you mentioned that Inner Mountain

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<v Speaker 1>Forensics does, or at least used to do some cases

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<v Speaker 1>like this, right answer yes. Question assisting law enforcement? Answer yes,

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<v Speaker 1>question roughly, how many cases did you assist law enforcement in?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer that's a good question. We have a running total there,

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<v Speaker 1>but I guessing in the hundreds. Question okay, and what

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<v Speaker 1>was your role personally in assisting law enforcement in those cases? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I had several. I did consultations up front, I was

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<v Speaker 1>qualified as an analyst for Forensic U S NPS. I

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<v Speaker 1>did some technical review, and in some cases I distributed

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<v Speaker 1>files to our clients. And when you say in the hundreds,

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<v Speaker 1>you mean you went through the whole process you talked

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<v Speaker 1>about with miss Taylor in hundreds of cases? Answer yes,

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<v Speaker 1>question developing an SMP profile? Answer I believe so. Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Question Okay, in all of those cases, were you successful

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<v Speaker 1>in developing an SMP profile? Answer no. Question In roughly

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<v Speaker 1>how many cases were you successful in developing an SNP program?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer we were about at the end of laboratory operations.

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<v Speaker 1>We were about eighty percent somewhere in that range. Question

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<v Speaker 1>so eighty percent of hundreds? Answer yeah, I believe so.

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<v Speaker 1>Question In the cases you successfully developed an SMP profile,

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<v Speaker 1>did you learn medical information about the individuals who used

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<v Speaker 1>DNA you were looking at? Answer no. Question did anyone

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<v Speaker 1>at Indoor Mountain Forensics learn medical information about those people?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer no. Question When you develop I believe you called

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<v Speaker 1>it an upload file? Is that correct? Answer correct? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>What does an upload file look like if you just

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<v Speaker 1>open it on a computer. Answer It's a text file.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very very big. Again, it comes in different formats,

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<v Speaker 1>but essentially what it is is a text file. It

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<v Speaker 1>is a big text file that was hundreds of thousands

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<v Speaker 1>in our case of SNPs that have a position, a name,

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<v Speaker 1>what chromosomes are found on, and the actual letters that

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<v Speaker 1>we're looking for. Question So if you provide that upload

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<v Speaker 1>file to someone that didn't have any training or experience

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<v Speaker 1>in genetics, they would be able to read it. Answer no,

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<v Speaker 1>not in so much words, there some heaters on there.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess that you could. That you could. That would

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<v Speaker 1>be the narrative, but the molecular biology would be pretty

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<v Speaker 1>complicated questions. So let me ask it this way. I

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<v Speaker 1>guess if you were to hand that upload file to

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<v Speaker 1>your average police officer and ask them whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>the person whose DNA you were looking at would have cancer,

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<v Speaker 1>would that officer be able to do that? Answer? No question.

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<v Speaker 1>What additional steps would you need to take to learn

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<v Speaker 1>medical information from an SNP program above and beyond what

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<v Speaker 1>you were doing at Inner Mountain Forensics? Answer? Well, SNPs

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<v Speaker 1>are informative to a variety of different things. So what

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<v Speaker 1>we're looking for is genealogy, informative markers or ancestry links

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<v Speaker 1>informative markers to find health information or phenotypical like hair color,

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<v Speaker 1>eye color, you need to look at different SNPs. There's

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<v Speaker 1>a horde of research on what medical information is out

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<v Speaker 1>there and what SNPs are probative. To gain access to

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<v Speaker 1>those SNPs, you would have to go back into the

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<v Speaker 1>bioinformatics pull the information from the raw data specific to

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<v Speaker 1>the medical smps that you're looking for. That's something we

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<v Speaker 1>did at IMF. Question So, if I'm understanding correctly, at IMF,

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<v Speaker 1>you developed SMP profiles, but they were specific for ancestry.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer genealogy and ancestry. Yes, question why didn't you develop

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<v Speaker 1>smps related to medical information? Answer? That's not part of

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<v Speaker 1>our scope. We are a forensic DNA testing laboratory. We're

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<v Speaker 1>generating FIG profiles for the support and upload into these

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<v Speaker 1>genealogy databases. It wouldn't be relevant or a probative nor appropriate.

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<v Speaker 1>Question did you when you help these law enforcement agencies?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you ever follow those cases to see if there

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<v Speaker 1>were successes at the end? Answers? Sometimes we delivered files

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<v Speaker 1>to our partners, and in some cases we had an investigative, forensic,

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<v Speaker 1>investigative genetic genealogy team that worked the cases on the

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<v Speaker 1>investigation side. But in some cases, our clients would come

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<v Speaker 1>back to us and let us know that they've gotten

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<v Speaker 1>a result that they had a case resolution. Question, and

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<v Speaker 1>you participate in that, I don't know exactly what you

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<v Speaker 1>want to call it. In the FIG community, Would you

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<v Speaker 1>consider yourself a member of the FIG community. Answer, I guess. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a variety of different groups, I guess, and message

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<v Speaker 1>boards and information pathways, and I try to be a

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<v Speaker 1>part of that where I can question. And as a

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<v Speaker 1>member of the FIG community, did you hear about other

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<v Speaker 1>people's success stories using FIG? Answer absolutely? Question have you

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<v Speaker 1>ever heard of FIG case that was successfully solved using

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<v Speaker 1>medical information? Answer no, never, mister Nye. Just one second,

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<v Speaker 1>your honor, No further questions. All right, So we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>wrap up right here, and when we pick up, we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna have Ann Taylor on the read direct. If you'd

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<v Speaker 1>like to contact me, you can do that at Bobby

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<v Speaker 1>Kapuci at ProtonMail dot com. That's b O b b

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<v Speaker 1>Y c ap you Cci at ProtonMail dot com, or

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<v Speaker 1>if you prefer, you can find me on x at

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<v Speaker 1>bo bb y underscore c apu C. All of the

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<v Speaker 1>links that go with this episode can be found in

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<v Speaker 1>the description box.