WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:00.200 You. 2 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:04.679 Chilly Effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and 3 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:10.279 listeners liking Yeah now the most aggervated noise and in 4 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:14.679 a media sixteenth day. 5 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.679 Of July twenty twenty six, allegedly according to that thing 6 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:19.920 we call a calendar. And I'm live a little after 7 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:23.600 nine pm, actually about quarter after nine pm if you're 8 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:25.719 sitting in the Eastern time zone, but most of you 9 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:27.760 will be catching this via the podcast, so it's kind 10 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.039 of irrelevant what time it is, but I assure you 11 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.840 it was recorded on a Thursday, and it is the 12 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:36.759 sixteenth day of July, again according to that thing we 13 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:39.920 call a calendar. So what am I doing tonight live 14 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:42.719 on my stream? I'm speaking to Larry Hancock because I 15 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:45.119 should have spoke to Larry last night on Wednesday like 16 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.719 we usually do. Uh, but my internet was not stable 17 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:52.759 so we couldn't quite connect last night, and Larry elected 18 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:55.960 to come on tonight. So I'm really grateful. And why 19 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:58.640 am I extra grateful? Well, in real time, we're actually 20 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:02.880 going to cover something, and for background reading and further research, 21 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:06.799 I would urge you to consider one of Larry's many books, 22 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:08.760 which I keep on my bookshelf. But even if I 23 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.920 sell a lot of my JFK books coming up, Larry's 24 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:14.359 books are going to stay with me, folks, My kids 25 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:17.959 are going to inherit those just saying, and I advise 26 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:20.359 you to do the same. I have every one of 27 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:23.840 Larry's books, one version or another, behind me on my bookshelf, 28 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:28.680 and Creating Chaos is definitely the one that I would 29 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:33.760 point you to for tonight's discussion. Now why we're going 30 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:35.760 to talk a little bit about what the President is 31 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.879 talking about right now, but also the general idea what's 32 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.239 actually going on. And Larry's really going to lead this discussion. 33 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:46.359 That's the way it is, because the President is speaking 34 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:50.920 about the Save America Act voting all that, and yeah, 35 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:52.519 so I'm going to just kind of hand it over 36 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:54.920 to Larry. Of course, check the links in the show 37 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.480 notes too. I'll see if I can remember to put 38 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.200 Creating Chaos as a book link, but if not, you'll 39 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:02.079 have a link to Larry's blog, which means you can 40 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:05.120 find all of his books, etc. And I advise not 41 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:07.480 only that you get the digital copies if you like, 42 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:13.919 but physical copies of Larry's book are definitely welcomed additions 43 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:18.319 to any educated bookshelf. Anyways, let's just educated bookshelf. That's 44 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.280 kind of funny. Imagine that your bookshelf has a diploma, 45 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:25.400 but you don't. Anyways, Larry, first off, how you doing tonight, sir? 46 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.159 I'm really fine, Chuck, Okay. 47 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.680 Now here's the thing. Why am I bringing up creating Chaos? 48 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.080 Quite often we talked about Putin actually regarding creating chaos, 49 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:43.599 but that's not tonight's focus at all. But the methodologies 50 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:48.800 that are in there, the idea the political spheres of 51 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:53.039 influence and how one can conduct combat in them or 52 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.759 around them or with them might more accurately be the 53 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.879 topic of discussion tonight. Or maybe I'm wrong. What do 54 00:02:59.879 --> 00:03:01.680 you think now? 55 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.840 I think one of the things that strikes me, and 56 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:07.520 you mentioned creating Chaos, one of the things that I 57 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:10.879 was very interested in when I when I tackled that 58 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.319 book and the research for it, was to try to 59 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:18.199 really explore the alternatives. You know, how how do adversaries, 60 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:25.680 you know, experienced, professional, proficient adversaries with very you know, 61 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:29.639 stat well established intelligence groups, how do they do political warfare? 62 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:33.759 And the president tonight appears to be focused on China 63 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:40.400 in particular, and China using technology to subvert the actual 64 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:44.520 elections process he has says he's going to be going 65 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:48.759 into detail on that, but subverting the elections process on 66 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:52.879 the back end, apparently inside those have been claims that 67 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.560 he's been making for some time that somehow they've managed 68 00:03:56.599 --> 00:04:00.000 to hack or penetrate the polling systems of various places. 69 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.400 Is not not upfront, not with the voters, but after 70 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.280 on the back end, with what's been registered. And and 71 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:10.039 I think one of the things that strikes me is 72 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:18.680 that's that's actually not the real well established danger in 73 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:22.879 political warfare. People people are smarter than that, you know, 74 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.319 the people that have been playing this game for ages, 75 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:34.720 doing things like using influencers, using comproment, using compromising. But 76 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.879 the point is that there there are a couple of 77 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:42.519 different ways that they do political warfare around the process, 78 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:48.519 around the electoral process, and and this is vote voting. 79 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:52.720 Interference on the backside really is relatively minor to what 80 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:57.480 we've see in historically. Historically, the big gains, the big 81 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:05.079 plays are to a to place influencers and to obtain influencers. 82 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:08.879 And these these are people that are insided administration already 83 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.600 or inside a party, or inside inside the process to 84 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:18.600 use a financial means to use, compromise, to to use 85 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:24.160 basically to gain control and make your view repeated by 86 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:26.959 these people. It's the same game we play today with 87 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.160 influencers of all stripes. But yeah, because was just going 88 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.040 to stop you that who gets so lit. 89 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.800 Right, I was just going to stop you right there. 90 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:37.240 Because one, here's the word influencers, and in the current 91 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:40.879 uh you know nomenclature if you will, that's got to 92 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:45.560 do with mainly people online who are convincing you to 93 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:50.199 buy stuff or convincing you to get involved with a 94 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:56.199 brand or particular business or something like that. In its functionality, 95 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.120 it's the same thing. But you know, but I could 96 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:01.360 be selling you soda and be an influencer. I could 97 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:05.759 be selling you sneakers or a particular brand of facial wash, 98 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.519 whatever it might be, and and be an influencer by trade. 99 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.040 But there are political influencers that existed long before you know, 100 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:17.959 this internet culture and so on again, and function the 101 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.279 same thing. But most people would say, oh, what you 102 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:26.240 mean just those social media people? No, not just them, 103 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:30.319 but could include them also, right, No, that's. 104 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:33.160 A different game entirely. We're talking about people that are 105 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:37.399 inside the system, that go into meetings with the president 106 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:42.000 that go into meetings with advisors that help collect information. Basically, 107 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:46.879 people that are in in positions to present information to 108 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:51.399 decision makers, and you want those people to be filtering 109 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:55.680 information to present your view. You know, this is a 110 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:59.879 foreign adversary. You know, if I am, I want a 111 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.600 favorable picture of Russia presented with inside the administration, I 112 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:07.720 want a favorable picture of China. And when it gets 113 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:12.079 down to detailed decision making, I want somebody in the 114 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:19.360 room that's presenting supposedly factual information that represents the worldview 115 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:22.439 that I want presented to the decision makers. That's the 116 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.879 kind of This is not social media. This is actually 117 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:30.759 somehow get into people, and I document extensively in the 118 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.120 book on how this is done so that your view 119 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:37.680 is presented as part of the decision making process. See, 120 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:42.480 you really don't worry too much about who's elected. You 121 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.399 look at who was elected and you find ways to 122 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:51.199 get to them. Basically. Now it may be it may 123 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:54.480 be real straightforward. Now you could drive them, you would 124 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.319 offer them money, or you can set up business deals 125 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:01.319 that are attractive to them. You can do campaign influence. 126 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.160 One of the one of the major exposures at the 127 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:08.839 moment that the President seems to be avoiding entirely is 128 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.360 the fact that we've lost all control over the packs 129 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:16.560 the political action committees in terms of where they're getting money. 130 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.800 That they're huge amounts of money are going into influence legislation, 131 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:27.560 not just not just on votes on individuals, but votes 132 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:33.279 on policies, votes on laws, and we don't know. Tracking 133 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:36.000 that money is impossible. I've been looking at it even 134 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:39.840 in local elections and nobody could track it. It says 135 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:44.120 if we thought the CIA was good at doing money cover, 136 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.320 what's going on with these facts is just insane because 137 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.440 that's that's open the whole avenue, the whole avenue of 138 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:59.480 foreign influence within our political system that is being totally ignored. 139 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.919 And I think the reason's being totally ignored, obviously, is 140 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:08.679 because nobody wants to shut the door on these huge 141 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.440 amount of moneys that are now being pumped into elections 142 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:16.440 on the front end. So when I talk about influencing, 143 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:20.519 you know, influences and really is not talking about social media. 144 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.360 It's talking about getting the individuals that are already in place, 145 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:30.360 making sure those people, you know, present information the way 146 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.679 you want to present it recommendations, and they can be 147 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.080 doing it. They can be doing it very sincerely. You know, 148 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:40.519 if you court them correctly, you lead them to your 149 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:46.720 way of thinking. In earlier decades, sometimes these people were 150 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:52.080 called fellow travelers because they had been influenced to your 151 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:54.960 way of thinking. You know, Russia is our friend, Russia 152 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:59.600 is our ally, Russia is They simply want an economic relationship. 153 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:03.879 So you want that voice in the discussions. And how 154 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.320 do you get that voice. You you approach them, and 155 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:12.600 you don't bribe them necessarily. You you present that information 156 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:16.679 and a very convincing sincereiou standpoint and get them basically 157 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:19.919 to your worldview. So this is the kind of influence 158 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:24.720 we're talking about, not social media. That's another story entirely. 159 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:29.600 But this is well documented and and and the fascinating 160 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:33.080 thing is the way that we have dealt with that 161 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.840 in the past is to have a very strong intelligence community, 162 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.240 because the intelligence community has got to be in a 163 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:46.360 place to track those kind of advisors, those people that 164 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.559 are setting in meetings and and look at who's in 165 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:50.720 contact with them. 166 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:53.440 Well, all that, all of that having been said, though, 167 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:57.840 Larry I would not discount the idea of people on 168 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:04.320 social media who are exerting in influence over another population 169 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.480 that's involved in this equation, which is the public. Right, 170 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.200 So there is an element of that there where the 171 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.840 public is involved in a feedback loop, or at least 172 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.200 certain elements of it, in a feedback loop with some 173 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:19.440 of the people in power. And if you have influence 174 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:21.919 and you get you know, a handle here, a handle there, 175 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.120 you can steer everything by having just a couple of 176 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:28.879 handles in the right place, from the population to the 177 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.559 people that are supposed to be representing them, etc. By 178 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:37.519 the again, the modern constructs of social media and the Internet, 179 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:38.440 don't you think. 180 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.960 Well, I do check, but I think it's very important 181 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.759 to differentiate, and I do this in the book with 182 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:49.639 different chapters. Differentiate influence on the voter versus influence on 183 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:53.799 the decision making. Right, Influence on the voter is one 184 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.840 thing in terms of who gets selected or you know, 185 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:02.159 what legislation gets opposed, what legislation get supported, and influencing 186 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:07.360 the voter. Absolutely, social media major factor these days. Influencing 187 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:12.600 the decision makers. Different story, different tools, different practices, and 188 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:19.200 quite frankly, if I get people in a position to 189 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:25.480 influence a decision maker, after the votings that occurred. That's 190 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:26.159 really great. 191 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.360 Well in some cases, yeah, But in some cases, here's 192 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.360 what I've witnessed is that a great enough groundswell of 193 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:38.799 complaint or support right from the general public has had 194 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:41.759 influence on some of the so called decision makers right 195 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:46.000 where they've had to back down from certain positions or 196 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:52.360 abandoned at least going forward publicly with certain programs that 197 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:54.759 they're trying to institute. Here, certain things that we're going 198 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.879 to go forward, like, for instance, these massive data centers, 199 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:00.000 which you know, hey, look this is going to be 200 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.320 great thing, and we're going to hire ten twelve thousand 201 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.000 people in your area, and all we got to do 202 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:05.919 is pretty much take over a big piece of land 203 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.159 you guys weren't even using anyway, you know, so on 204 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:12.399 and so forth. When people push back because of a 205 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:17.080 ground swell of a sentimentality which in some cases is 206 00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:19.679 organic and in some cases is being influenced by an 207 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:25.519 outside entity pushing an agenda, right, these things do wind 208 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:29.159 up playing a role also among the decision makers, not 209 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:32.240 necessarily the real ones, but at least part of the 210 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.000 middle management that I see. 211 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:37.360 So it changes the difference there, Chuck as you're talking. 212 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:42.559 I think that certainly occurs with local issues. I'm talking 213 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:47.360 about national security, national you know, decisions that are made 214 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:51.440 at the White House level, decisions that are made. Indeed, 215 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:55.480 so no argument with what you're saying in terms of 216 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:00.639 social media bringing pressure in regard to local issues. Absolutely, 217 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:04.480 I'm talking about the type of influence that affects national 218 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:07.799 level decision making, and I think that is much more 219 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:15.159 divorced from, you know, from downstream social media. That's you know, 220 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.120 it depends who you managed to put in the room, 221 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.120 you know, when the decision is made, who who's setting 222 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:24.080 around that can can show. This is really called shaping 223 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.799 is the technical term, and it's derived from shaping the battlefield. 224 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:33.080 It's it's used in the military. It's using warfare all 225 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.759 that the tactics you used to shape the battlefield for 226 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.080 your position, you know, to lead your view, your military action, 227 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.559 the advantage. I'm talking about shaping decision making at the 228 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:50.639 national level, not and that's that's that's much more personal. 229 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:56.360 That's you know, who who picked what advisor for what purpose? 230 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:00.000 You know, who's the national security advisor, who's the deputy advisor, 231 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:04.320 or who's setting a justice you know, you know these 232 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:08.759 are the people that are going to be bringing recommendations 233 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.360 and data to the president. The interesting thing I noticed 234 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:17.480 in monitoring the President's speech last night is presidents is 235 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:21.879 now saying that his own appointees, the people he put 236 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:26.559 in positions to provide information to his decision making, were 237 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:30.720 wrong right in twenty twenty, you know, And that's that's 238 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.200 kind of a fascinating thing, you know. But so no, 239 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.279 I don't disagree with your point, but I would separate 240 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:44.639 it between shaping shaping national policy and shaping local policies. 241 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.159 He is kind of what I'm talking about at his point, 242 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:52.840 separations or the Chinese don't aren't concerned about data. 243 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.159 Centers, right, No, no, no data centers. I get it. 244 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.679 But at the very least you can say, though that 245 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.000 those other things that I was talking about not only 246 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:06.440 shape local policy but also national rhetoric. For sure, not 247 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.000 necessarily the actions, but it does change what you know, 248 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.960 It seems to need to be addressed. What appears to 249 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.440 be the priority, right from a public standpoint, this is 250 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.559 our absolute priority, This is the most important thing. When 251 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.639 that's not necessarily what all the energy is going into, 252 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.840 that's not necessarily what the resources are going into the 253 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.639 thing that's being represented in a rhetorical fashion, even the 254 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:35.200 effort right now of the President to come forward and say, look, 255 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:39.559 this is why I need this thing pasted. Whatever is 256 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:43.799 about the rhetoric and public it's not necessarily about the 257 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.519 actual functional priority. So you got to separate that too, 258 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:47.960 don't you. 259 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.360 Well, oh yeah, I absolutely I agree. And it's a 260 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:57.080 very complex thing, and sometimes it gets down to terminalogy. 261 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.440 What kind of political warfare you talking about? As you 262 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.079 and I have discussed before, you know this in this 263 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.519 an area where I'm talking about how you try to 264 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:14.279 shape the decision making, whether it's local or national. Of 265 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:17.759 course the other area, you know, and obviously China or 266 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:21.680 Russia would like to shape our decision making in their favor. 267 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:27.160 But there's an alternative to that, quite frankly, both of them, 268 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:33.240 and in particular Russia. Although fascinating and looking at the 269 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:36.759 commentary I've seen on the speech and the documents, it's 270 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:42.119 all targeting China, no remarks at all about Russia. And 271 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.599 the fascinating thing is, regardless of how much the president 272 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:50.200 would like to ignore it, there's absolutely a strong case 273 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:54.160 made for shaping having occurred in that election. From the 274 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:59.119 Russian influencers. But another story there. I think what we've 275 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:01.599 got to understand is, on the other hand, to some 276 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:06.759 extent and maybe more in the Chinese at this point 277 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:09.640 in time, there's the whole point of they don't really 278 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.839 care about our decision making. What they would like to do, 279 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.240 And this is a constant when you're trying to shape 280 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:22.680 the battlefield is to basically stall your adversary, put them 281 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:27.240 in a loop, fragment their decision making, stop things from happening, 282 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:32.359 create create such confusion about what's going on, create which 283 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:39.119 so many conflicts and dysfunction that you stall decision making 284 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.640 period and you have people at each other's throats at 285 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:46.000 all levels. And so there's an argument to be made 286 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:50.720 that that sort of political warfare is just as important 287 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.960 as shaping, in fact even more important the closer you 288 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:02.000 get to any kind of escalation of events, because give 289 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.240 a perfect example, if if you can, if you can 290 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:14.279 create so much dysfunction that nobody passes a defense spending bill, great, 291 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.240 great for them. You know, where where's all the where's 292 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.440 all the money for the you know, we're expending gigantic 293 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:26.880 amounts of smart weapons in uh Iran? Nowhere, where's the 294 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.960 money to replace that. We're where all the things that 295 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:35.519 that should go on to UH to elevate national security, Well, 296 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:39.200 you can stall that just by getting everybody voting against 297 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:44.279 each other. Creating fear, uncertainty, and doubt FUDD is the biggest, 298 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:49.480 biggest tool that the adversary has. And and quite frankly, 299 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:54.160 the argument's been made is the the more the more 300 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:57.079 you fragment people over the election system. If you can, 301 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:01.319 if you make everybody think that their vote doesn't count, 302 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:06.759 that you know you can't, everything is open to question, 303 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.519 then you stall stall the whole process. And quite frankly, 304 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.960 that's right where we are right now in Congress at 305 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.279 this point. So I have to make the argument that 306 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:25.119 in terms of tactics of political warfare, fragmenting fragmentation is 307 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:29.960 an important tool. Creating chaos is a really important tool 308 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.559 regardless of who's elected to who do what, because it 309 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.039 really doesn't matter who gets elected if you've screwed up 310 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.240 the system so much the system is broken. 311 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:43.319 In other words, sometimes it's even useful to just create 312 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:47.359 the argument. It doesn't matter who is victorious in the 313 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.440 debate that emerges from the argument, as long as you 314 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:55.480 keep the argument going and therefore you stall any real action, 315 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.240 which stalls, you know, not only but basically stalls anything 316 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.480 positive that could be done. Sometimes it is simply for 317 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.240 the sake of the argument itself, not necessarily about winning 318 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.119 or losing the argument. This is, you know, again one 319 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:12.960 of those things that people miss when looking at well 320 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.200 I'm on this side, well I'm on that side. That 321 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.279 doesn't solve the issue of there are sides being created 322 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:23.680 and an argument that is being had in public which 323 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:29.720 forestalls any solid decision making and undermines any decision that 324 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.759 is made going forward, because you know, listen, if they're 325 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.279 evil and they wanted to win, and then they win, 326 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.839 there's going to be a percentage of people that think 327 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.680 the evil guys won. I mean, it's just a guarantee 328 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:48.759 that you've created an undermining of credibility and legitimacy to 329 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:53.759 just about any decision being made by that mechanism. Right. 330 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:57.599 I think that's absolutely true. And I think this takes 331 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.920 us back to something you and I have been discussing 332 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.279 the last two or three sessions, the approach that's been 333 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.519 and by the way, monitoring what's going on, the President 334 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.759 has already stopped speaking, so this has to be one 335 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:16.319 of the shortest addresses he's ever made. But the sense 336 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:18.319 that I get, because I haven't had a chance to 337 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:22.519 look at the documents, apparently the message that's been delivered 338 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.640 is we're releasing a lot of documents to you that 339 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:31.000 raise issues, raised questions, that raised doubt. You know, we're 340 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.319 not We're not making the case. As a matter of fact, 341 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:36.599 he did not. Basically, he said what he's done is 342 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.039 released a lot of documents, and it's almost like you 343 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:42.240 can reach your own decision. 344 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.000 You know. 345 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.680 He thinks China interfered in the elections, but he did 346 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.599 not call for any action against China or any you know, 347 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.279 consequences for that. But one of the things that we've 348 00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:58.279 been seeing happening in the last several months is the 349 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:01.400 White House approach has been to a release a lot 350 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:08.000 of documents on several different things, political assassinations, UAPs, and 351 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.160 just kind of toss them out to the world and 352 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:14.839 let the world make its own decisions, you know, which 353 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:18.359 means you and I and the public in general, we 354 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.480 just go to a White House website and we read it, 355 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:26.640 and based on our experience and our knowledge, you know, 356 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:30.559 we reach the conclusion that we probably were preconceived, you know, 357 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.519 like this is just feeding my pre because there's no 358 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.279 analysis that goes with it. There's no profess you know, 359 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:43.359 what's the context of the documents? We're the professionals. Where's 360 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:47.319 the intelligence community who has the expertise to look at 361 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.599 this stuff and really handle it? But that's not what's happening. 362 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.440 Just he's taking all these things and throwing it on 363 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.359 different servers. And to me, that's kind of like feeding 364 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:03.160 the you know, throwing red meat inside the dog. Then 365 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.799 you know, you just you don't take any responsibility for it. 366 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.599 You just throw it out there. And what can that 367 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.640 do other than create fear, uncertainty, and doubt. 368 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:15.839 Well, what it can do is present a buffet table 369 00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:21.039 to anyone that wishes to feed their preconceived notion. Uh, 370 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.319 that's what it is. Yeah, right, it's like the buffet 371 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:30.319 for feed your own conclusion, choose your own adventure, right, 372 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.200 you know. And and there it is if you read 373 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:36.160 and I found this with the documents on especially the 374 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.680 political assassinations that were released as a plate. If you 375 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:44.799 have a preconceived notion, you go in, you can find 376 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:46.880 something to back it one way or another. 377 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:47.680 Uh. 378 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:50.240 They pretty much put it out there so that you 379 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:55.200 can just strengthen your prejudiced position one way or the other, 380 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:00.640 your preconceived notion, your uh, you know, look, pre prejudice 381 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:05.559 means to prejudge, So yeah, your prejudged position. How else 382 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:07.680 do I put it? I can't put it in another way? 383 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.960 It's literally a buffet. You're not in the mood for salad. Fine, 384 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.440 there's a you know, steak and you know, shrimp, cocktail, 385 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.720 shrimp over here. You got it all day long. Feed 386 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:23.440 your conclusion, and that's appears to be really the agenda 387 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:27.559 of releasing things in this haphazard way. In my opinion, 388 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:29.039 maybe I'm wrong. What do you think? 389 00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:33.440 Well, yeah, I think, and and you know, both of us, 390 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.640 you know, I always say, but we're not you know, 391 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.640 fervent establishment supporters, right, we're often critical is what the 392 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:46.160 establishment does. But this there is a purpose for having 393 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.519 an establishment, especially in people in the you know, in 394 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:54.039 the intelligence community, the national security community, the people that 395 00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:59.039 have experience so and that they use tools and practices 396 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.119 to objectively look at this stuff and make professional assessments. 397 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.000 You know, I would be a fool to say that 398 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:10.960 somebody with you know, twenty years experience looking at the 399 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:16.799 guts of political warfare. You know, all the examples, real life, 400 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:20.279 real world experience with it. Should not be the person 401 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:26.839