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Speaker 1: Pet Life Radio, Let's Talk Pets.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to aquarium Mania. I'm your host, doctor royan On,

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speaking to you from the University of Florida. I fis

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Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory. Thanks for joining us. Most common freshwater

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tropical fish are farmed but originated from Asia, South America,

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Africa and Australia. But what about the native fishes here

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in the US? Join us as Brian Toriano, ethyologist and

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owner of VT Darter's, explains why US native fishes truly

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are another great option for aquarium hobbyists. We'll be right

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back after these messages.

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Speaker 3: Take a bite out of your competition. Advertise your business

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Speaker 4: Let's talk pets on Petlifradio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Aquariumania on pet Life Radio. Thanks for

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joining us. My guest today is Brian Torriano, US native

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fish expert and owner of BT Darters. Hey Brian, thanks

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for joining us. Hi, So, as kind of usual with

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a lot of my guests, I'd like to get a

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little bit into your early years at getting a little

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bit personal. Where and how did you first become interested

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in aquatic life.

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Speaker 5: Well, when I was growing up, my grandparents had a

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small creek running through their yard, and they lived pretty

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close to me and my folks, and so I was

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able to go to their house a lot, and there

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were always snakes and frogs and lots of little fish

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in the creek, and anytime we would go there, I

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would be playing down in the creek. And that's where

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I got a lot of interest in fish and other

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native wildlife.

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Speaker 2: So tell us, I guess a little bit more about

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early years in aquarium keeping. Do you remember what your

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very first aquarium tanks were and what you kept?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, my mom and I had a thirty gallon aquarium

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when I was really young. We just had your standard

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goldfish in there. I believe it was, And my mom

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tells me a story that one time, when I thought

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the fish were hungry, I tried to feed them a

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McDonald's hamburger bond by floating it on the surface of

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the water. So, yeah, I got started with aquariums at

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a very young age.

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Speaker 2: Did they like the hamburger?

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Speaker 5: I don't remember.

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Speaker 2: I forgot this was in Wisconsin, right, yes, correct? Okay, Yeah,

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that's funny. And then you learned quickly that hamburgers were

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not the right diet. Yes, exactly, that's pretty funny.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I know you have an interest in passion for

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kind of both biology and art. Before we talk about

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biology and fish, can you tell us a little bit

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about your art history.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I used to do a whole lot of drawing. I've

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done some carving, some painting a lot more. When I

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was younger, I liked to draw and paint things in

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the natural world, tigers and fish and random animals and

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stuff like that. I did also have an interest in architecture,

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so I did some designing with regard to that, and

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did even have a stint at the UW Green Bay

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Architecture Camp one summer while I was in high school.

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Speaker 2: So what made you kind of make the decision to

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head down to science root and go more biology versus

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art to what we're kind of your sort of driving factors.

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Speaker 5: After high school, I sat down with my parents and

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we talked about what would be a better course of action,

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because at that point it was really a toss up

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between architecture or biology. But we came to the realization

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that since I spent so much time down at my

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grandparents creek over the years and had such a strong

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interest in that, that we thought it would be better

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for me to pursue biology as a degree, and so

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that's what I focused on when I went to college.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's great, and so yeah, I guess anything kind

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of that you remember and maybe impacted you in college

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and as a follow up after that, is you know

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what kind of made you decide to get a masters

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in ichthyology or kind of go beyond your bachelor's.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, in college, I had a lot of really

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good professors. Doctor Timothy Ellinger was my atheology professor, and

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I also had a lot of other really good science

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teachers there and got to learn about all the different

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species of native fishes in Wisconsin. There are about one

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hundred and forty seven different native species of fishes in Wisconsin,

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and only a handful of those will you ever catch

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on a hook and a line. Most of them are,

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you know, three inches or under, and they're fish you

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don't really see real often. But learning about them just

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fueled my interest and finished my bachelor's in biology and

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then decided that I wanted to get a master's. And

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in the course of getting my masters, the degree ended

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up being in biological sciences, but my specialty was a

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theology or the study of fishes.

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Speaker 2: And I guess I'm just kind of curious, So, you know, obviously,

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usually when folks pursue a master's, they kind of have

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some sort of idea what they What were you thinking

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you might do with the masters or had you thought

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about career wise what you were going to do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the original plan was to try to get into

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the State Department of Natural Resources, hoping to use my

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degrees there, but that ended up not working out. So

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I did for a few years work at the us

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EPA in Chicago, but I had an internship there and

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at the end of my internship, I ended up moving

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back to Wisconsin and just tried to find a good

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fit for my interests and my degrees and ended up

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not really finding a good fit. So I decided to

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take my interest in native fishes and my knowledge and

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start BET darters.

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Speaker 1: OK.

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Speaker 2: Great, Yeah, definitely it turned out to be a good decision.

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So before we talk a little bit more about BT darters,

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let's talk about US native fishes. Sure, why aren't they

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really as commonly kept? And maybe tell us some misconceptions

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about keeping them that might make people less likely to

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have them.

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Sure, Well, there are several misconceptions about there with

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regard to keeping native fishes in the aquarium. A lot

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of people think that you need a chiller to keep

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native fishes, and for most native fishes, that is not true. Obviously,

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if you want to keep like a small trout or

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a salmon or a sculpin, you'd need a chiller, but

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most native fishes are more than comfortable at room temperature

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aquarium water, which actually becomes a benefit because then you

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don't need to run a heater to keep them. Some

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other misconceptions are that you can only keep native fishes

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with other native fishes, and that is simply not true.

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Over the years, I've kept native fishes with a lot

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of common tropicals like cory cats or angelfish, non aggressive cichlids,

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algae eaters, plattes, mollies, you name it. As long as

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you're meeting the requirements of the native fishes, they're pretty

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well to be kept with with other tropical fishes. Some

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other misconceptions about native fishes that they're all brown and ugly,

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which is not true. A lot of the native fishes,

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especially like the rainbow darters that I sell, that they

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have blues and reds and are really stunning. And one

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US native fish that has actually become famous overseas as

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the rainbow shiner. They have really bright blues and pinks,

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and from what I'm told there are very popular overseas.

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And another misconception is that it's too hard to keep

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native fishes in aquariums, and that for the most case,

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is simply not true. Native fishes can be a lot

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hardier than tropical fishes, and can acclimate well to frozen

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or prepared foods, and are really quite easy to keep

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in the aquarium.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great, well, it sounds like a lot of reasons

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that maybe people should keep them. Yeah, so as kind

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of an I theologist, you know, we'll talk a little

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bit of science here. What would you say are kind

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of the major big taxonomic groupings of natives, especially obviously

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the ones that you would consider for an aquarium, including

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and we'll talk more about the ones you sell as well,

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but in kind of in general, what would be the

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major groupings for aquariums.

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Speaker 5: Sure, major groupings would be darters, of course, they're in

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the perch family. Other groupings are minnows yprintids as they're called.

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Some people keep sunfishes or centrarcids in the aquarium. Catfishes.

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We have some species of native catfishes that you can

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keep in the aquarium, and there are some other oddball

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ones like swamp fish and some live bearers too, like

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least killy fishes that you can keep in the aquarium.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you mentioned a few what would be in

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your I guess opinion, some of the more popular species.

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I think you might have mentioned some of them already,

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but are there Maybe reiterate what those were, and then

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what maybe a few other ones might be that would

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be kept, and then like where they come from, maybe

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originally in the US.

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Speaker 5: Okay, well for us at BT darters. The most popular

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fishes are high colored rainbow darter. They're found east of

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the Rocky Mountains in the US and have a pretty

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broad distribution, and they're fairly easy to keep in the aquarium.

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Some other ones that we sell that are popular are

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a few species minnows. They also have a pretty broad

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distribution east of the Rocky Mountains, and also little catfishes,

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which tend to have smaller range distributions, but our phone

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throughout the Eastern US.

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Speaker 2: And for the catfishes, when you say little like, are

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the ones I'm familiar with tend to be kind of bigger?

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Are there some that would sort of stay, you know,

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aquarium hobbyist tank size or do they all get pretty big? No?

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Speaker 5: No, No, absolutely, especially one of the species we sell,

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the tadpole mad tom, that stays six inches or under.

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And there are a lot of other mad toms in

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the Eastern US, some of which we have access to

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sometimes that stay in the three to four inch range. Okay, yeah,

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that's great.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, obviously had to ask what native species is

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your favorite?

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Speaker 5: Well, I'd have to say our high color rainbow darter.

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And just to clarify, we call them high color because

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we have certain ones that we grade out for higher

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color intensity and the amount of color on the body.

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It's the same speed as a regular rainbow of darter,

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it's just we grade them out for higher color appearance.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, Now another question, obviously is going to be

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kind of legalities. So what are legal issues or can

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anyone keep native fishes legally?

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Speaker 5: Well? Across the US, the legalities vary. Here in Wisconsin,

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you can keep a native fish as long as you

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have proof that you legally obtained it, so we are

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permitted by the state Department of Natural Resources as a

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licensed vendor. Throughout the US, again, legality varies from state

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to state, but we do help people figure that out.

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If somebody orders fish from US, we first check with

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their state to make sure it's okay to send native

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fishes to that state. And the reason we do that

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is because your average person just doesn't know where to

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find that information or who to contact, and because we've

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been doing this for so long and we know where

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to look and we know who to talk to if

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necessary to find that information out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's definitely really helpful because yeah, you're right, I mean,

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most people would have no clue. So that's a great service.

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Speaker 5: Actually, oh thanks.

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Speaker 2: So the next question, can anyone just go out and

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catch their own native fishes or kind of what's what's

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your take on that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well not just anybody can. There's some states that

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disallow it. So we recommend if you want to get

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out and collect some native fishes, find an expert in

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your area that knows the laws and knows how to

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identify the native fishes, because, yeah, there are thousands of

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native fishes throughout the US, and you don't want to

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accidentally be taking home something that's a threatened or endangered

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species or accidentally take home an invasive species or something.

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So definitely find an expert in your area and talk

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to them about it.

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Speaker 2: Great advice. Well, you know, let's take a short break.

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We have a lot more questions and a lot more

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information I know you have for us, So we'll take

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a break and continue our discussion with Brian Triano, US

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native fish expert and owner of bet Garners. After these

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Speaker 2: We're back and continuing our conversation with my guests Brian Triano,

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US native, a fish expert and owner of VT Darters. So, Brian,

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we were talking a little bit about legalities and catching

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fish a hobbyist, other you know by themselves. Let's talk

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about spawning and I think we'll talk more about, you know,

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the fact that you spawn some fishes as well for

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your business. How hard is it to spawn aative fishes?

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Speaker 5: It really depends on the species. We have some that

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we spawn that are quite easy. For example, our spot

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finch shiners. They have a specific requirement that they are

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crevice spawners, but if you can provide to them a

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spawning trap with appropriate sized crevices, they're quite easy to spawn.

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There are some other species, like our rainbow arders, which

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are a little harder to spawn, but it can be done.

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You just have to know the specific requirements of the

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fish and as long as you meet those, the fish

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are generally if they're in breeding condition, are pretty apt

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to spawn.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and then I guess the follow up to that

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would be like in terms of the hatching and the

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feeding of the larvae, Like, how is that is that

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pretty easy?

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Speaker 5: That's about about standard for most of the fish. It's

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not as easy as like a molly or a platy

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where they pop out live young that are eating crumbled

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up flake food. For a lot of the natives, you're

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going to start them on infusoria or other small prepared foods.

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But if you spawned some of the slightly more difficult

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tropical species, you shouldn't have no problems spawning a native species.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So I know there is a group the North

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American Native Fish Association, I think NANFA. Can you maybe

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tell us a little bit about NANFA? And I know

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you had been involved with them as well at some point. Yes.

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Speaker 5: NANFA is a group of North American native fish hobbyists

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that have interest in the native fishes of North America.

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Of course, they have membership throughout the US and throughout

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the world actually, and they have a quarterly forty page

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print magazine that they send out for nine months. I

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was actually senior editor of that magazine and for many

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years I was an associate editor. They do have a

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small presence on Facebook as well, but there are a

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lot of people in that group that are knowledgeable about

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native fishes and especially legalities throughout the US with regard

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to keeping native fishes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, good to know. Yeah, so we'll talk more about

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husband and requirements later, but I kind of wanted to

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get into your business now, so BT Darters you started

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talking about it a little bit. What made you decide

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to go into business and specifically with native fishes. You

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talked a little bit about some work you did before.

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But opening your own business, I know, and I can't

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even imagine because I don't have one, must have been

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really tough.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't too tough. Actually, I started in two thousand

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and one, again when I just was having trouble finding

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a job that satisfied my interests. And yeah, it wasn't

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too difficult to start. I was living in Walkershaw, Wisconsin

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at the time, had several fish tanks and was out

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catching the native fishes, and I decided, well, why don't

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I set up a website and see if I can

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start selling them. So that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: How did that work. I mean you got obviously you

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had to get like permits, I think, right, and then

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like how did the response to your website go and

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all that sort of thing.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it was actually in two thousand and one,

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00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:31,160
there was nowhere near as many as the permit requirements

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as there are no. That was before the VHS fish

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virus hit Wisconsin, and pretty much as long as you

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had a fishing license and a seller's permit, you could

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sell the native fishes. So that's how I got started.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so not too many challenges. Then that's pretty good

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to hear. How many different species do you sell? And

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or does it kind of vary depending on.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it does vary. On an average day, twenty three

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different species of native fish. But there are certain times

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throughout the year that I have access to mourn native

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species through a supplier in the US South that I have,

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so at those times I can have access to thirty

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seven or thirty eight different species.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's great and you don't have to go into

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crazy detail. But so do I assume you have a

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bunch of tanks at your facility and you're kind of

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got some breeding tanks or sort of what kind of

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your setup, I guess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well right now, I don't have a ton

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of tanks. I did between twenty twenty two and twenty

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00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,480
twenty three, I did live in Costa Rica for a

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short while, okay, and came back and set BT Daughters

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00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,799
back up, and so I've only got a few tanks

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and a few fry tanks. But I do aquaponic filtration

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on the tanks to keep the water clean and have

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been able to spawn three different species since I came

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back to the US, my Lowland Shine, my Black Stripe

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top Meadows, and my spotfan Shiners, and so I've got

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fry tanks with them and currently selling some of my

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spotfan shiners also.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great, So Costa Rica, you don't have to go.

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00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,519
That's interesting, that's like a long time anything you want

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to share or anything kind of interesting or any rationale

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for going over there.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, I went to Costa Rica because I was

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a little frustrated with the political climate throughout the US.

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It seems, I don't know, it's a frustrating topic.

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Speaker 2: But oh yeah, no, no problem, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 5: I decided to move down there, and after eleven months

356
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down there, it was really hard to find work down

357
00:20:43,279 --> 00:20:46,759
there actually, and I just was having so much trouble

358
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I decided to come back. When I came back, I

359
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set bet Darters back up and got it Roland and

360
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things have been really good with regard to it since

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i've been back.

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Speaker 2: That's good. Well, I'm glad you're back. Thanks. Well, you

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00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,000
mentioned you obviously have some well caught in some that

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you're breeding going into faques. We talked a little bit

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about this when we're going back and forth earlier. What

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does a hobbyist who maybe has a little bit of

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information on kind of normal tropical fish in aquaria but

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still is really new, what do they need to know

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to be successful?

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Speaker 5: Well, I provide care sheets with all of the fishes

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that I sell. I also for most of the species

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have the care information linked on my website online, so

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anybody can always contact me with regard to with regard

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to questions about the care of the different species, I

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do offer some consultation as well. I do offer some

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for free and also with the purchase of fishes, but

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for long or more involved consols like setting up like

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a display system and needing to know all the details

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with regard to that, I do check for that sure

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there's also a lot of resources online NANFA website, as

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00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,880
you mentioned, they provide information the NANFA Facebook group. There

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are a lot of other Facebook groups with regard to

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native fishes and those can be good sources of information

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as well.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and you mentioned that in general you can keep

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a lot of natives with some of the common tropicals.

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Are they maybe some that you think specifically should not

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be kept or some that shouldn't be kept with certain

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fish that maybe you know people that have gotten fish

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from you didn't ask you ahead of time and so

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had issues.

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Speaker 5: Well, I try not to offer any species that you

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wouldn't want to keep with other fish. I mean there

394
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are some instances like you want to avoid a fish

395
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that is going to be able to eat your other

396
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fishes just based on size difference. But in general I

397
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try to offer species that are good community fishes and

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do well with other.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I guess another question is always going to be,

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00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:08,880
you know, parasites and maybe potential transfer. Are there more

401
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,759
problems with some of the like wildcot natives for example,

402
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,200
versus you know, some of the more common aquernfish with

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00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,519
regard to parasites, or how do you kind of handle that.

404
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, wild cott natives can have parasites that are

405
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,440
also common to truckle fishes. But what I do with

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00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:30,799
all my wildcot fishes, I prophylactically treat them for internal

407
00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:35,000
and external parasites to remove any. So if somebody buys

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00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:38,359
fishes for me, they're assured that they're getting parasite free

409
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fishes that aren't going to infect the fishes that they

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currently have in their aquarium.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so maybe kind of going off some of the

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questions I asked earlier, would you recommend any specific species

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00:23:50,079 --> 00:23:54,119
as maybe the easiest native to start with and any

414
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,839
additional info that would be required for that species.

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Speaker 5: Sure? Sure, Well on one super easy species to start

416
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,599
with is our common shiners. They are a smallish species

417
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,599
of minnow. They can get up to about seven inches

418
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,200
when they get large, but they're really great community fishes

419
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,880
and can live just fine in a tropical fish aquarium.

420
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They'll eat flake food all day long, and they're really

421
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,400
well suited to anybody's aquarium.

422
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Speaker 2: Can you describe, like, what do they kind of look

423
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:28,680
like appearance wise?

424
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 5: Yeah? Sure, well, they look like your typical minnow. They're

425
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,519
flat sided and silvery. Breeding males are bright red. If

426
00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:40,680
you ever have the chance to see a breeding male,

427
00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:45,720
they're really incredible. But your average everyday appearance is a

428
00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:50,839
silvery fish that is sort of minnow shaped and very active,

429
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:51,880
like to swim around.

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Speaker 2: Also, how about the most difficult what would be a

431
00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:58,839
really interesting but difficult fish, maybe for a hobbyist that's

432
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a little bit more advanced.

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Speaker 5: Well, probably our fiery black shiners are the most difficult

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00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,160
ones to keep. They come from the American South in

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00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:14,039
swiftly moving, highly oxygenated waters, and they really do need

436
00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:17,799
to be kept in aquarium with a lot of water movement.

437
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,519
In the past, I've had experience with them that if

438
00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:23,839
you don't keep them with a fair bit of water movement,

439
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,759
they will develop spinal problems and can't perish. So you

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really need to meet that specific requirement to have good

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success with them.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and can you maybe describe them? How do they look?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Well, they're the standard minnow shape too, like the

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common shiners, but these guys have red and black on

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the tails and sort of a little bit of red

446
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on the fins, and the body is gray to white,

447
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and they develop males will develop little bumps on their

448
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nose called tubercles and they're just they're really beautiful and interesting.

449
00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:03,799
I've got a video of one of my previous fiery

450
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black Shiners that I had up on my YouTube channel.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so speaking of difficult fish and you know,

452
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,720
things like including within that kind of just even transport

453
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in general, where have you sent native fishes and are

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there problems with kind of shipping them or you know,

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depending on where people are.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, let me touch on the shipping first. So what

457
00:26:24,319 --> 00:26:28,200
I do to ship is the fishes are put a

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few fish in a bag, double bagged with supplemental oxygen,

459
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,240
and then they get put in a styrofoam lined box.

460
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We most often shipped through USPS Priority, which is a

461
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few days service. But with the way in which we

462
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,839
ship them, we have extremely good success. Over the twenty

463
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,720
some years i've been doing this, I've only lost in

464
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,680
total like a couple dozen fish, So we have really

465
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,480
good success with that. And as far as where we've shipped,

466
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we've shipped to as far as Alaska on the West

467
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,160
coast and as far as DC on the East coast.

468
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,480
And again we're based in Wisconsin, so we've got a

469
00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:14,200
broad area we cover and have really good success with

470
00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:15,079
sending the fish.

471
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,039
Speaker 2: Good. Good to know. So you mentioned your YouTube channel.

472
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:21,680
Do you have any other resources online that will be

473
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,559
helpful for current or future native fish keepers and you

474
00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:25,799
want to maybe talk about those?

475
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 5: Yeah? Sure, Well, of course we'd have to mention our

476
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,279
website bt darters dot com trying to provide a lot

477
00:27:32,279 --> 00:27:35,880
of information there to help anybody out with any questions

478
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,720
they may have about the native fish. Also, we've got

479
00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:43,480
a community on cofi that's cofi dot com slash bt

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00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,440
darters where currently we have a lot of photos and

481
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,359
info about native fishes, and that's also meant to be

482
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:54,759
like a discussion forum where people can ask questions and

483
00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:58,119
get their questions answered. Those are some really good resources.

484
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,279
And again we do also have a share it with

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00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:05,359
videos of our fishes, and uh, that's where we try

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00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,839
to provide a lot of a lot of helpful information.

487
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,640
Are those those resources?

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00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 2: Okay? Great? Sounds like quite a bit. Yeah, well, unfortunately

489
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we're out of time. I wanted to thank you Brian

490
00:28:16,599 --> 00:28:19,880
very much for your time and expertise and definitely enjoyed

491
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,039
kind of going through some of your online resources. Learned

492
00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:25,720
a lot and obviously learn more talking with you right now,

493
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,960
want to thank our producer, Mark Winner for making the

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show possible. So, Brian, do you have any final words

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00:28:31,079 --> 00:28:34,880
of wisdom about native fishes or anything in particular you

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00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,119
wanna you want to add?

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00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 5: Sure, well, with regard to native fishes, a little bit

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00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,000
of wisdom would be to keep your fishes clean, well oxygenated,

499
00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:47,079
and well fed. That's the best wisdom I can give you.

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00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: All right, thanks for that, So please be sure to

501
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:52,400
check out Brian's Peaky Daughter site and his other social

502
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:54,960
media links, which we'll find on He's a quarem Mania

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00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,200
episode page. If you have any questions, comments, or ideas

504
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,880
for a show, email me at doctor or Roy at

505
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,799
petlife Radio dot com. That's d R R O Y

506
00:29:04,119 --> 00:29:07,640
at Petlife Radio dot com. Until next time, please visit

507
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,279
your local at France stores, feed your tanks clean, and

508
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:11,559
consider going native.

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00:29:12,319 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 4: Let's Talk Pats every week on demand only on Petlife

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00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:25,960
Radios dot com