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Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.

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Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I

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tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.

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Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a.

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Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: So much talk about politics and religion. I want to

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come back to just religion. Having come out of a

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fundamental faith and having been co hosting on the Line

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Network where we talk to a lot of theists and

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they bring their proofs for God, or at the very

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least they're trying to sow doubt about atheism. I think

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one of my not favorite, but one of my hashtag

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favorite arguments is why do you hate God or why

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do you say there could be no God? Which is

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not what atheism is. I'm struck by how often apologist

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misrepresent what atheism means. You know, I do not believe

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in God seems pretty basic, but I think it's in

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the interest of a lot of apologists to do that

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very thing. And over the last let's see, I started

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the website in two thousand and nine. Holy shit, what

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is that sixteen years? I've had a lot of these discussions.

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And you know, there are some arguments for God that

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make me crazy, and I know they make you crazy too,

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And I want to hear the ones that make you

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want to stick your head through sheet rock, the stuff

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that just you're like, how could you even bring that

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to the table. It's it's not that the apologist hasn't

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heard it before, because I know this is fresh material

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for a lot of people. And I mean the stuff

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that you're like, this is not even an argument, makes

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no sense, like prove there is no God, which to

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me is the equivalent of prove the universe doesn't exist

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in a giant snow globe which sits on the mantle

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of a cosmic space octopus. Right, prove that for me?

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You know, that's not exactly how proof works. You've got

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the well, I'm not a monkey. My grandfather wasn't a monkey.

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You know, I'm not a primate. I may be a mammal,

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but I'm not an animal. I heard that when recently

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I heard the story about Charles Darwin having a deathbed conversion.

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Have you heard that story? Oh, Darwin wrote on the

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Origin of species. Sure, but at the very end of

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his life, when he knew he was facing the music,

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he had a conversion. And there's a whole narrative. Somebody

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came and visited him at his deathbed, and he had

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kind of an epiphany, and his heart changed, and he

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opened his mind and his spirit to Jesus Christ and

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he became a believer. Bullshit, that never happened. It's like

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that story about Einstein in the college classroom. Hang on,

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let me see if I can find that this is

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unplanned Einstein classroom god story. I'll bet it pops right up. Yeah,

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Albert Einstein humiliates an atheist professor. Here's how the story goes,

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and this has been circulating for more than twenty years.

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Does evil exist? The university professor challenged his students with

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this question. Did God create everything that exists? A student

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bravely replied, yes, he did. God created everything. The professor asked, yes, sir,

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the student replied. The professor answered, if God created everything.

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Then God created evil. Since evil exists, and according to

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the principle that our works define who we are, then

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God is evil. The students became quiet before such an answer.

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The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to

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the students that he had proven once more that the

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Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand

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and said, can I ask you a question? Professor? Of course,

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replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, yess

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or does cold exist? What kind of question is this?

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Of course it exists. Have you ever been cold? The

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students snickered at the young man's question. I love the

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hero narrative. Right, you got the evil snickering professor and

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the noble hero student. The young man replied, in fact, sir,

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cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics,

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what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat.

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Every body or object is susceptible to study when it

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has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a

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body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero minus

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four hundred and sixty degrees fahrenheit is the total absence

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of heat. All matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction

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at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created

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this word to describe how we feel if we have

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no heat, The student continued, professor. Does darkness exist? The

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professor responded, of course it does. The student replied, once again,

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you are wrong, sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is,

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in reality, the absence of light. Light we can study,

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but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism

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to break white light into many colors and study the

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various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A

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simple ray of light can break into a world of

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darkness and illuminated. How can you know how dark a

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certain space is. You measure the amount of light present.

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Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man

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to describe what happens when there is no light present. Finally,

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the young man asked the professor, sir, does evil exist?

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Now uncertain? The professor responded, of course, as I have

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already said, we see it every day. It's in the

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daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in

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the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.

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These manifestations are nothing else but evil. To this the

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student replied, evil does not exist, sir, or at least

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it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the

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absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold,

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a word that man has created to describe the absence

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of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not

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like faith or love that exists, just as does light

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and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when

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man does not have God's love present in his art.

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It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat,

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or darkness that comes when there is no light. And

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the professor sat down. The young student's name was Albert Einstein.

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This entire story is a big pile of cramp. It

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never happened, and yet it has been shared in Christian

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circles for I don't know how long, and many people

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who during his life his contemporaries were asserting that Albert

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Einstein was somehow a Christian. He came forward and he said, no,

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it's a lie what you've been hearing about my religious beliefs, right.

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I think he was more of a Spinoza's God kind

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of a thing. It's really more about the cosmos and science,

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And he was not a Christian. And yet you know,

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they want to brandish Einstein as if you know, this

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is a gotcha. Well, and even if Einstein had been

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a believer and a brilliant scientist, would that have proved God.

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Scientist X believes in God, therefore God exists. This is

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not how science works. There's the God of the gaps.

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There are gaps in our knowledge. We don't know things

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what happened before the Big Bang. I mean, it could

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have been of specific deity with a proper name who

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then had anonymous primitive men write a sixty six book

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book which talked about garden nudists and talking reptiles and

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nine hundred year old people and giants and sea monsters

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and those types of things. One of my favorite parts

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of the Bible is in the Book of Revelation, the

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story about the flying dragon writing, actually it's a seven

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headed dragon, writing space prostitute. Ah, yeah, horror Babylon. Totally

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reasonable to say that, because we don't know even if

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there was a before. I was talking to astrophysicist doctor

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Dan Batcheldor about space time, which is just literally a

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skull melting thing to get into, especially for lay people

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like us. But if space time didn't exist, until the

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moment of the singularity. Then time may not have been

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a thing. There may not have been a before right,

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There may not have been anything before the Big Bang.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot to take in. But to say, well,

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we don't know therefore, gee, it just makes me crazy. Anyway,

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I want to know what your pet peeve arguments are

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for the existence of a god. It can be any

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god or God's plural, or spirits or ghosts or whatever.

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And I know you got some. So this is the

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place to vent as we just spend some time sort

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of refocusing, getting a little bit more away from politics

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and Christian nationalism today and getting into theology and the apologists.

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I've got nine zero one on the phone. Hi. Who's this?

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Speaker 4: Hi? This is Cullen. How are you doing, suth?

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Speaker 2: Is it culin? Yes, sir, welcome to the show. Thanks

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for calling. What's on your mind?

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Speaker 4: My girlfriend she did like a theology class. There was

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way after we broke up, and I just happen to

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see it, and she had to post videos on YouTube

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of her giving sermons, and one of the ones that

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she gave was that once upon a time there was

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a shepherd with the whole flock of sheep, and every

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night he would bring them all back into the barn,

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but there was always one that would wander off, and

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day after day he had to go find that sheep

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and pick it up and carry it back and put

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it back in the fold. So one day he gets

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tired of doing that, so yoesll and he finds the

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sheep and he takes a big heavy step and he

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just breaks its legs and then he carries it back

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home and he fixes it up. And he did that

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not to hurt the sheep, but because he loves the sheep.

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And that's why God looks bad things happen to us.

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And when I heard that, it took me about twenty

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minutes of just sitting there outside smoking a cigarette. I

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don't even smoke anymore. I just keep a practice in

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face for times like that. It absolutely broke me.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a slave celebrating their chains. He

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only hurts me because he loves me. This is a

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faith building exercise, pain in this life, bliss in the next.

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The more suffering that happens for God here on Terra Firma,

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the greater my reward will be in eternity. And I

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also think that people are great at creating narratives where

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the nonsensical makes sense to them. The tornado hit more, Oklahoma,

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and forty five people were killed, including a dozen children.

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Well maybe it was because Oklahoma has too many of

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those icky gay people. Or maybe God is using our

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light and momentary affliction to produce in us a greater

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glory that far od weighs them all. This is a

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faith exercise, you know. There were so many apologetics that

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are supposed to excuse the inexcusable, and the more you

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and I hear it, the more we think, Dear God,

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these people are they're playing twister, And I'm sure you

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felt that, right, You're like, how far have you just

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bent to make this make sense? Right?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, well I don't know how to change that mind.

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This is the question of the ages. All I know

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is that I share your frustration, and I myself hear

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that kind of thing, and I want to put my

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head through sheet rock. So you and I have we

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share frustration. You and I are sitting at the bar together.

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I'm drinking something non alcoholic, but I tip my glass

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and I share your frustrations. My friend, Thanks for Colin Cullen.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely thank you. I have a great day. You bet

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him stay perfect.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know it's and this gets tough. We're in

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tornado season here in Oklahoma, and we've already had some

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big weather and we were supposed to get a lot

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more baseball sized hail, right, giant, deadly cannonballs of ice

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from the sky. We've got tornadoes on the ground. We

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had shingles ripped off of brooves. I saw trash cans

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blowing down the road with sixty five mile an hour

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wind gusts. It's just been wild, and it's you know,

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it's not even May. But it's very common for people

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to reach out and paint the silver lining whenever tragedy

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and calamity happens. I mentioned more Oklahoma talked about them

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in some various speeches where there was loss of life

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and billions of dollars in property damage, and people will

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put up a sign that says God bless more. Or

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when they get really twisty, they find a Bible in

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the ruins. Sometimes the Bible is opened and they'll locate

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a verse on whatever page happened to be open, and

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they're like, this verse means something. It is a reminder

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that God has not abandoned us. There was a television

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station in Oklahoma City where the reporter actually did a

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story about a deadly tornado, and somebody found a Bible

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in the debris field, and it was open to a

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certain verse. I think it was out of Isaiah, some

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inspirational fortune cookie. And that was the news story. Bible

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found with inspirational verse in rubble. And I'm over here

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like you are going, I'm sorry, hang on. The woman

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who owned that bible was killed. I think it was

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a grandmother. You know what I'm saying, She's dead. Sorry

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about the death, Sorry about shredding a human life. Enjoy

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these pieces of paper. God says, that kind of thing

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makes me crazy. Some other gems on the argument's roster.

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It takes more faith to be an atheist. Who's the

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apologist who says this? I gotta look it up. It

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takes more faith to be an atheist. He's got a

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book by that title, Norman Geisler, the apologist. I think

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he's dead. I think he's alive. I don't know if

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there is an open Bible in his way, but I

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think he's dead. I don't have to go look. I

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don't have enough faith to be an atheist is the

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name of his book, and this is a common thing.

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It takes more faith to not believe in God. In Oklahoma,

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they're going after the public schools. A lot of it

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has to do. It's a riff on the teach the

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controversy angle. Well, you know, intelligent design one of those

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things where we need to teach both. You know, let's

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teach the scientific record, let's teach evolution, let's teach cosmology

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and the origins of all things according to science, and

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then let's teach intelligent design, and we'll let the kids decide. Right.

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That's a terrible way to approach education. It's ideology first.

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It's creationism in costume is all ID really is? These

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people make me crazy. Dan at eight one five, thank

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you so much for calling. What's going on?

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Speaker 5: Hey, Seth, appreciate you having me on you bet. Yeah,

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I don't have a specific argument exactly, but it's more

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of a general, you know, flow that I encounter a lot,

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and you know, my interactions with theists, and it's always

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the argument of personal anecdote, regardless of what it may be.

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It's Oh, I prayed for my friend to be healed

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from their chronic headaches than they were healed, or you know,

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it's go down the line. It's really frustrating because that

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seems to me, in my personal experience, to be one

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of the prevailing cruxes of the issue, where they just

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can't get past a personal experience of theirs that they

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have deemed to be causal instead of just maybe corollary.

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And so I don't know if that's something that is

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the main issue when it comes to how a lot

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of theists come to their conclusions, but it's certainly one

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that I've experienced, and it's really frustrating. I don't know

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if you've seen the I think it's Jubilee that puts

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on these kind of panels where we'll have one person

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sitting at a table and like twenty people around them

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trying to basically rush to the center to be able

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to present an argument and discuss with them.

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Speaker 6: Have you seen that?

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Speaker 2: No, I haven't seen it.

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Speaker 5: They're interesting videos, like Alex O'Connor was on it, and

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you know, he would make his various claims and then

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this circle of people who disagree try and present their arguments.

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But they recently and I know this particularly isn't a

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religious argument, but they recently had a doctor come on

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who described why vaccines are important, and he was surrounded

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by twenty anti vaxxers, and every single person that came

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up to make their argument about why they were against

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vaccine was always about, well, I was able to, you know,

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cure myself of this particular thing by just using holistic medicine.

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Or this other person who was saying they know somebody

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that got the vaccine and then died afterwards. It really

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does seem to be a problem of correlation versus causation,

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and that's really hard for people to get past.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they see validating things, or what they

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believe is validating things like the pseudo documentary died suddenly

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talking about all these famous people who got the COVID vaccine,

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and then they keeled over, And people who didn't do

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any more digging who felt vindicated in their anti vax

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stance were like, Aha, these celebrities are all dead. They

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died suddenly. But if they'd done a five second Google search,

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they'd realize that the people that were supposed to be

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dead were actually alive and well and still doing whatever

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they do without a problem. I mean, it's so frustrating, right,

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confirmation bias. It's everywhere.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And the most frustrating part about it is, as

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you mentioned, a lot of the time, the answers are there,

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they are available, they're readily available, and they're either dismissed

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or they just don't look into it enough.

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Speaker 2: I remember talking to my mother when I was having

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doubts going through deconstruction, and that's one of the first

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arguments that she led with, you know, I had an experience.

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I had a spiritual experience. Jesus appeared to me, and

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I know he's real and I know he lives in

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my heart. And it was kind of a take my

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word for it thing where you know, if I had

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told her that I'd had an experience with the snow

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globe possessing cosmic space octopus, I just know it in

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my heart, take my word for it, she'd lacked me

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out of the room. But I'm supposed to take her

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word for it. It's a total double standard. But yeah,

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the anecdotal claims it's hard to know what to do

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with him except maybe flip the script and say, hey,

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would you take somebody else's word if they pitched a

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different god ideology, political stance, fills or whatever. That's all

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I know how to do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it seems to be really the only approach you

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can take.

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Speaker 2: It.

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Speaker 5: It's frustrating because you know a lot of times you

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just end up hitting a wall where oh, well that's

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not exactly the same or that's different because of X,

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Y and Z, and it's yeah, there are roadblocks, But

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I agree. I mean, you can't really do much when

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somebody has an emotional attachment and a personal attachment to

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how they come to their conclusions. I just I really

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think critical thinking in general, if you just take like

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religion or any specific topic out of it, I just

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really think society at large has really failed to educate

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its populace on how to properly think critically, and that

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would solve a lot of our problems.

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Speaker 2: It would solve so many of our problems. I feel you, Dan,

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great calm, Thanks for being a part of the conversation today.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me all right, see.

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Speaker 2: You later, Okay, I know that you, like me, just

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want to sin. But we are going to continue with

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more of the worst of the worst apologetics arguments out there,

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plus whatever our collars want to talk about next. The

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American Atheist National Convention this coming weekend. You can still

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get tickets for Minneapolis, go to Convention dot Atheists dot com.

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And then the first weekend in May, I'm going to

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be at the Western Canadian Reason Conference, and if you

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want to get tickets for Alberta, Canada, we can reason

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dot com. This week we're talking about bad apologetics, some

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of the worst believer arguments that you and I have

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to field every single day. I had a message from

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Lance in the chat, the moral argument is one of

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the worst arguments for God. Where do your morals come from?

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I think this is pretty basic pro social behaviors, communal

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or community thinking, collectivism in that way, ethical actions benefiting another,

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creating solidarity with another, which then comes back to you,

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which means you are more apt to procure resources and

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survive threats. So pro social behaviors are actually a great

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adaptation to pass on your genes. It makes total sense

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to me evolutionarily, even if altruism doesn't truly exist. Let's say,

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in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, okay,

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if I benefit somebody else in some way might benefit me. Whatever,

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We're still talking about moral pro social behaviors and the

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idea that this stuff has to be handed down from

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on high. It makes no sense to me. And then

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who wrote the Ten Commandments because they're mostly a waste.

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We'd run through a few more of these messages on

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the chat. Frank Tuuric, thank you. He's the apologist I

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was first thinking of. He says, you don't have it

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takes more faith to be an atheist. And he also

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says that's a common denominator among people who deconstruct out

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of Christianity just want to have sex. It's all about sex,

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sexual shame, and sexual sin. They want to go out

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and do all these prurrian things. Well, you know, there's

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a component to kicking away the shame and the quote

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unquote moral restraints, but he's just trying to reduce it

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to everybody wants to go out and have orgies, which

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you know, I don't think that's really the driving force

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behind people asking is this true case? G R seven

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has asked why my webcam is so shaky? Fair question,

390
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terrible answer. I shake my leg when I'm sitting in

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a chair, drives Natalie crazy. You know that invisible baby

392
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bouncing on the knee thing. I'm always doing it, and

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I have to try to remember to Will myself out

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of it. That's why the camera was shaking. We did

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not have an earthquake in Oklahoma. I was sitting here

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bouncing my knee like an idiot. I've done this. I

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do it in movie theaters and Natalie has to nudge me.

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I did it on the bleachers. We were watching one

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of the grandkids play a ballgame, and I didn't realize

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I was doing it, and the entire row apparently was

401
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ding ding ding ding ding, and Natalie's like, hey, squit it,

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You're bouncing the parents on the entire row. Oh sorry

403
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about that. So anyway, I throw myself at your mercy.

404
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Oh look, super chats and some much welcome support to

405
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the channel. Hunter Biden's laptops says, thanks for appearing on

406
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Secular Rising last night. This is doctor J Bundy. Hey,

407
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doctor J. Big smart people, and I had to follow

408
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Jay on the freaking show, right, So we've got a

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PhD followed by the guy that took thirty years to

410
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figure out that donkeys can't speak Hebrew. That's awesome, that's awesome,

411
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Thanks for that Secular Rarity. Thank you for making me

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do that. But we were hanging out in the green

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room and had a great conversation and it was a

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real honor. So hey, doctor j it's an honor to

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be able to have you here. Craig says, Islamic apologetics

416
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seemed to dive deep into numerology. The number nineteen seems

417
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to be a big deal into retro predicting historical events.

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I don't know that much about Islam, but I do

419
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know there's a lot of Da Vinci code type apologists

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who were always doing weird math to try to make

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the nonsensical make sense. The only thing it proves to

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me is that human beings are pattern seekers or pattern makers,

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connecting dots, even the ones that aren't supposed to be connected.

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You know what I'm saying. They're like, oh, this means something. Well,

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what it means is is that we are pattern seeking primates.

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That's what it means. Ben says that I have a

427
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nervous trump twitch. Okay, Cookie Monster says, I'm just trembling

428
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in fear of God. Bohemian Lucy has asked the question,

429
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what is retro predicting? Oh, that's such a good question.

430
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So what we do is somebody writes a prophecy, and

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the Old and New Testament are great examples or the

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Old Testament, New Testament and modern day headlines are a

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00:28:40,839 --> 00:28:44,200
great example of this. But what you often will do

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is somebody who is more of a contemporary makes a

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prediction or says that something has transpired rather that is

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a fulfillment of prophecy. But they are already aware of

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the prophecy that was made before and were able to

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sort of mold or retro fit this prophetic occurrence into

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the story of old or the people who write the

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fulfilled prophecy had access to the old material. So the

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00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:20,079
New Testament writer has access to the Old Testament story,

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and then the New Testament people say the fulfilled prophecy happened. Well,

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we can't verify either one of them, but somebody was

444
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using a cheat sheet. And again we still have vague

445
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predictions where people are connecting dots because they want to,

446
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and we have a ton of failed prophecies like the

447
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prophecy of Tire and the Old Testament totally failed. Nobody

448
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wants to talk about that one. Nobody wants to talk

449
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about that one. You were never a true Christian to

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begin with, Oh seth, Nobody, nobody who ever really knew God,

451
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nobody who ever knew had a relationship with the risen Savior,

452
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with Jesus Christ, would have ever walked away from him? No,

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you were a counterfeit, You were an impostor. Oh you

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may have thought you were a Christian, but absolutely not.

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What you needed was a true and authentic encounter, and

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then you would still be a believer. How dare somebody

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else tell me what's going on in my own mind

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and heart? If Dan Barker, who was a preacher for

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a lot of years and he's co president of the

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Freedom from Religion Foundation, he likes to say, if I

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wasn't a true Christian, nobody was. And I feel the

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same way. I was all in true blue Bible believing

463
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Bible literalist Christian and so to have some third party

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sitting in the cheap seats looking at me going, ah,

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you didn't do it, you weren't there, I'm like, you

466
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have no idea what you're talking about. You didn't see

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me when I was just a kid walking up the

468
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aisle at Eastwood Baptist Church almost crying because the Revival

469
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preacher had rattled my cage. I wanted to go to Heaven.

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I sure didn't want to go to hell. So I

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went forward and I pleaded with all my heart, Dear Jesus,

472
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:15,079
save me and take me to heaven. I mean, I

473
00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,640
couldn't have been more sincere. And then after that, I

474
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,400
was so insecure about getting it wrong or losing my

475
00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,400
salvation and going to hell. That's all the time I

476
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,440
continued to restate the salvation prayer, Dear Jesus, please save me,

477
00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:34,000
cleanse my heart. I know I'm a sinner, Please I

478
00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:38,079
you know, please rescue me, you know, make me a Christian,

479
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,960
over and over and over and over and over again.

480
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,960
So I followed the instructions in the New Testament. If

481
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,440
you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and

482
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,079
believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,

483
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,799
you will be saved. I qualify. If anybody qualifies, totally

484
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,480
irritates me, or what's another one. You took this verse

485
00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:05,279
out of context, usually in the context of slavery. Discussions

486
00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:09,160
of slavery, well, you know it. It was a different time,

487
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,039
so the owning of other human beings and the beating

488
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:18,960
of people who were enslaves or they were indentured servants,

489
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,599
so they were just paying off a debt. When somebody

490
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:27,480
beat them with a stick and made them unconscious for

491
00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:31,839
two days, and then kept them for the master's entire

492
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,599
life until the slave died, and the offspring of the

493
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,839
slave got to be slaves themselves, on and on through

494
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,799
the generation. So oh, yeah, that's indentured servitude. You know

495
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:52,599
I'm saying. You know, that's sorry. Weird verses are metaphor

496
00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:58,359
or parable, conveniently literal verses that might align in some

497
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,720
way with the his historical record. Well, those happened. Everything

498
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,279
else is allegory or it's a moral lesson Jesus Christ,

499
00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:13,160
if you'll pardon the expression. Bob said, I just didn't

500
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,799
read it with the correct spirit, right, which is another

501
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:20,400
apologetic Well you need to get saved. Well, this doesn't

502
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,480
make any sense to me. Well, you have to have

503
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:26,920
the Holy Spirit to be able to properly discern God's message.

504
00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:30,240
Well when do I get that? Well, you get the

505
00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:34,160
Holy Spirit when you get saved. Wait a minute, if

506
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,640
I'm not saved, how do I get the Holy Spirit

507
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,759
to get saved so I can have the Holy Spirit?

508
00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:42,920
This makes no sense. Four three four calling out of

509
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,039
Kansas City, Thanks for waiting, are you there?

510
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,319
Speaker 7: Yes, sir, Hey, how you doing today?

511
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: Excellent. Let's talk. We're venting frustrations about bad apologetics. What's

512
00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:55,039
on your mind?

513
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,559
Speaker 7: First off, seth, I apologize. I have a bit of

514
00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:02,880
a speech impediment. I wanted to say I was the

515
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,799
guy who posted on your Thomas Jefferson's speech that got

516
00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:08,639
the most likes talking about your fire being mixed with

517
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,480
compassion and empathy for others.

518
00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Yeah, no problem.

519
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 7: You really helped in my deconversion. In your level of

520
00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:18,559
empathy that you show and even some of your satires

521
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:21,920
just wonderful. The reason I called in it wasn't that

522
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,679
I'm from Kansas City, but I wanted to talk about

523
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,199
the Kansas City Capital protest this last weekend. And I

524
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,960
don't know if you're aware of it. There was a

525
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,000
protest by the Satanic Grotto. Basically, Michael Stewart, the head

526
00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:41,239
of the grotto, saw an anti abortion protest in the Capitol,

527
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,480
decided he wanted to do one. They got the permits

528
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,159
to do it in the Capitol, and the last minute

529
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,320
the governor basically pulled it and said they could do

530
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,159
it outside. They decided to do it outside and you

531
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,840
can see video of it on YouTube and stuff like that.

532
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,800
The part of it that bothered me was and they

533
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,960
got too because they said they had a consecrated host

534
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:01,639
to all this kind of stuff. But the part that

535
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,199
bothered me is I had a twenty year career in

536
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,000
law enforcement. At one point, when he went to desecrate

537
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:11,719
the Eucharist, a Catholic basically dived on it and shoved

538
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,320
at his mouth, and the police were very slow to

539
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,840
react when he went in the capital.

540
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 4: He walked in the capital as he said he would do. Basically,

541
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,239
they allowed.

542
00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 7: A gentleman to assault him twice, and then finally when

543
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,039
he hit the guy back, they intervene tackled him and

544
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:30,679
you can watch it on the video. The other guy

545
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,840
just walks off casually. And from what I understand, several

546
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,280
people were arrested about it, but they had thousands and

547
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,360
thousands of Catholics basically protesting thirty people. And I just

548
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,840
wanted to get your thoughts and feelings on that, Like,

549
00:35:46,159 --> 00:35:49,800
do you feel nowadays that the freedom of beach is

550
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,880
going to be contorted or twisted?

551
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,039
Speaker 2: Yes? I think it is right now. I think we

552
00:35:57,199 --> 00:36:00,400
are seeing the shutdown of Freezepe Beach.

553
00:36:01,639 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 7: Unfortunately I don't live in Kansas City. We wanted to

554
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,679
talk about Kansas City, but where I live would make

555
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,280
Oklahoma look secular. And if you ever want to know,

556
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:12,920
I can.

557
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: Reach out to you.

558
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 7: But where I live, I was a next door neighbor

559
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,800
of probably one of the largest pastors in history, And

560
00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:26,800
basically I live in the buckle of the belt, and so.

561
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 4: I get the idea of ideas.

562
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,119
Speaker 7: Being so scary around here. I mean it's I'm a

563
00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:34,239
closet atheist. I can't come out in the environment I'm

564
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,840
in because this town is we have more churches than restaurants.

565
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:42,599
Speaker 2: You can throw a rock here, and it's always say

566
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,039
we have two things in abundance, tornadoes and churches, and

567
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:49,800
the tornadoes are easier to escape. So you probably feel

568
00:36:50,679 --> 00:36:53,000
a little bit like that you're surrounded right.

569
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 7: There is like literally no protest around here because you

570
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,360
will be shut down immediately. They don't care about free

571
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,519
speech around here pretty much. So it's just that because

572
00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:08,599
I feel like more so now people are withdrawing into

573
00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:11,400
closets because they don't want to talk about their political

574
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:16,079
ideology or the religious ideology or the correlation between the two.

575
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,840
Like you, I grew up in an extremely fundamentalist environment.

576
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,599
Trust me, I have the scars to prove it. But

577
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,920
I know what religious fundamentalism is, and I'm seeing what

578
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,599
they prophesize at the end times. And you have people

579
00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:35,280
that are really trying to push for that right now,

580
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,280
the idea of unifying Israel because it's biblical, bringing the

581
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,719
Jews back. You have this entire faith office in the

582
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,840
West Wing now with wonderful Paula White leading the charge,

583
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,079
and I feel like a lot of people are very scared.

584
00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:53,960
I know some of the people around here that are

585
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,639
closet atheists are scared about what that means. You know,

586
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,199
you definitely don't want to come out now.

587
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,519
Speaker 2: Is there like an argument that many believers make along

588
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:07,480
the thinking of the show? Is there anything that you

589
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:09,239
have heard that just makes you Oh?

590
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 4: No, absolutely.

591
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,079
Speaker 7: I get all of the normal apologetics. In fact, I

592
00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:19,159
graduated from a Christian university and I took course work

593
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:23,840
on apologetics. But it's you taking it out of context. Well,

594
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,320
what he's trying to say here is blank, you think

595
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,440
you're smarter than God. Just a lot of stuff like that,

596
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:34,400
And it's a lot of the priests suppositional Oh well

597
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,320
you think you're smarter than God? Oh you just want

598
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,599
to denounce him, and around here that is a conversation

599
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,400
that could potentially lead to physical problems, just because around here,

600
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,559
I've seen people involved in fistfights over religion, just in

601
00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:55,000
the town I live, and it feels like it's getting worse.

602
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,559
A lot of these Christians feel more empowered.

603
00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: And they see to be invoking almost the Old Testament

604
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,039
God theirs isn't that Jesus loves the little children God.

605
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:09,360
It's the Yahweh's going to jack you up God. That's

606
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,599
the one they seem to be really into these days.

607
00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:16,039
It's scary times. I don't know. I've been having this conversation.

608
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,639
How do we correct it all without violence? I don't

609
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:23,880
want violence. I don't condone violence, but I wonder at

610
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,000
some point. I mean, I was watching the Alex Garland

611
00:39:27,039 --> 00:39:30,760
film Civil War the other day and I thought, this

612
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,400
is like contemporary. I could project modern headlines onto what's

613
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,639
happening here. And I think it was directed and produced

614
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,760
that way so that it's sort of evergreen. Whatever factions

615
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,199
are going head to head, whatever splintering of a nation

616
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,039
might be taking place, you can say, oh, yeah, this

617
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,800
is relevant. And I thought, you know what happens, and

618
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,559
I fear. It's just a matter of time. There's going

619
00:39:55,599 --> 00:40:00,559
to be bombs and fires and bullets and fists the street,

620
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,280
and I'm scared.

621
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 4: I think that you have the right idea.

622
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,679
Speaker 7: Sometimes what brings me peace is listening to you guys

623
00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:12,760
and knowing there's community out there, and especially from you

624
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,920
said you come from a place of empathy. You understand

625
00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:18,519
you went through the Satanic panic with us. You know

626
00:40:18,679 --> 00:40:23,239
you you live these experiences, and I think knowing that

627
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,960
others out there are like minded gives some result, at

628
00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:28,960
least know to me, how about you?

629
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: I just feel like I'm not providing anything except I mean,

630
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,280
how many times have people called and they're like, what

631
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:41,400
do we do? I feel overwhelmed, everything's going crazy and

632
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,639
I sit here blankly and go, yeah, you're right. I

633
00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:47,400
don't have any solutions. I feel like an idiot. I

634
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,719
feel kind of powerless. But I do want to be

635
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,719
an encourager, and I am activating. In fact, talking about

636
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,599
an event that has been going on nationwide. I actually

637
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:02,760
I'll talk about it here in a second. But I

638
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,760
had an activism poster for a live demonstration printed up,

639
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,079
so I mean I have been public, but I don't

640
00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:11,760
know what to do. Is it lip service or does

641
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,800
it make a difference. I think I'm in the same

642
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,480
boat as everybody else. Maybe there's some therapy in that

643
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:21,360
you are not alone angle, but that's all I know.

644
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 7: Well. I think individually we don't have much of a voice.

645
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:29,159
But I think if we remember that there are other

646
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,000
people out there sometimes that can give us the encouragement

647
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,519
to hold on to our beliefs. It's very easy in

648
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:40,719
an environment like you and I live, where you have

649
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,079
to talk to talk, and I like you can speak fundamentalism.

650
00:41:44,119 --> 00:41:46,039
I mean, you want to hear an altar call. I

651
00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:50,639
can do a great one, but I don't know what

652
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:52,760
the answer is, And I like you am a big

653
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,599
pacifist despite previous careers in my life, I detest violence.

654
00:41:58,159 --> 00:42:00,679
I think that the way that we arging to win

655
00:42:01,159 --> 00:42:04,639
is or not really win, but just bide our time

656
00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:08,800
and try to like you're doing right now, find ways

657
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:14,519
that we can resist passively. But let the world know

658
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:15,480
that we're out there.

659
00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:17,039
Speaker 4: There are people that are.

660
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 7: You know, they look at you around here.

661
00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 4: Like you're a freak.

662
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 7: I have told a few people and they just can't

663
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,840
believe this concept of oh wow, you're like you're dumb

664
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,480
or something like you're too stupid to understand. But I

665
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,760
think you're doing great work, Seth, and I'll let you go,

666
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,960
but I just wanted to say thank you.

667
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:38,079
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's an honor to talk to you. I

668
00:42:38,119 --> 00:42:41,000
appreciate the encouragement. I'm going to talk a little bit

669
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,039
about my recent more recent forms of protests, such as

670
00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:48,239
they are, and maybe provide a little more encouragement that

671
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,000
I'm taking a cue from the comments from the New

672
00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:53,199
Humanists who just gave me a great idea. So I'm

673
00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:55,599
going to borrow that and take credit for it. But

674
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,360
thanks for calling the show, and you take care, all right.

675
00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:01,119
Speaker 7: Can I say it real quick?

676
00:43:01,119 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 4: So I had God bless your heart, and God bless you.

677
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much. We'll see it all right.

678
00:43:10,519 --> 00:43:13,960
Oh yeah, we can speak the Christianese like that. I

679
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,199
can do it. I can recall it quickly. The New

680
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,960
Humanist in the comments that we got to form more

681
00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:25,400
cohesive and active communities, ethical societies, oasis chapters, Satanic temple,

682
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,480
Sunday assemblies. There are options, and they need our support

683
00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:31,920
and encouragement. Actually, this is a great point, and I'm

684
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,800
so glad you made it. I think we are better together.

685
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,599
I think we have to be unified. I think we do.

686
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,559
A lot of atheists hate the idea of forming groups

687
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,320
or acting in groups because they think it's a herd mentality.

688
00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:50,440
This is horseshit. We are communal creatures. We are powerful,

689
00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:53,840
more effective, stronger together. I think we have to put

690
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,079
aside petty differences that we might have here and there,

691
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,280
you know, the ancillary stuff, and I think we have

692
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:04,039
to come together and focus on big picture activism and resistance,

693
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:06,440
which is one of the reasons that many of my

694
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:11,719
co resistors are themselves religious people. They are state church

695
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,840
separation advocates, They are secular activists, they are moderate believers.

696
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,320
They are not necessarily Bible literalists. We disagree on theology,

697
00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:25,480
but more importantly, we care about and love people and

698
00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:28,199
want to save democracy. Am I going to make those

699
00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:30,760
people my allies? Do I want to be their allies?

700
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:37,519
Damn skippy, Certain, yes I do. I also think those

701
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:41,119
of us who feel powerless have to find and support

702
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,719
those who are on the front lines, and this includes legally.

703
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,760
There are a lot of lawsuits being filed. There are

704
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,880
people who are policy experts who are on the front

705
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,920
lines making a case on a much larger stage than

706
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,360
you and I have an access to. So if we donate,

707
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,280
and I know it sounds lame, but what they do

708
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,880
takes fun. If we donate too, if we join organizations,

709
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,599
if we follow their work, if we subscribe to their

710
00:45:06,639 --> 00:45:10,199
newsletters to stay informed, and if we donate to organizations

711
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,119
like Americans United for Separation of Church and State. American

712
00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:16,159
Atheists has been doing quite a bit of work. I'm

713
00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:22,280
on their board, the ACLU Secular Coalition for America Freedom

714
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,440
from Religion Foundation, who, by the way, is being sued

715
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:33,519
by Ryan Walters, the Oklahoma Superintendent of Public Instruction, because

716
00:45:33,519 --> 00:45:38,519
they had the goal to say stop broadcasting Christian prayers

717
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:44,079
over public school intercoms. Ryan Walters thinks he's being harassed.

718
00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:48,360
So now FFRF is facing a legal battle. Yeah, we

719
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,920
need to support them in a few bucks. Hey, it's

720
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,320
not lame. It does matter. I didn't mean to go

721
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,079
off on another trail. I was going to try to

722
00:45:56,119 --> 00:45:59,360
do something other than Christian nationalism, politics and the state

723
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,760
of the state. Forgive me for that. Back to bad arguments,

724
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,239
Pascal's wager. I'd rather believe and be wrong, which is

725
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,239
crap because you can't force yourself to actually believe. If

726
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,559
you don't believe, then you're just projecting or saying you believe,

727
00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:19,880
which means you're fooling God. Like God couldn't tell the

728
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,280
difference that I'm just playing a poker hand, so I

729
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,760
don't go to hell. Pascal's wager is just total crap.

730
00:46:26,199 --> 00:46:30,239
How did something come from nothing? The eye is too

731
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:37,360
complex to have evolved, talk about crap. Not only are

732
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:42,599
there models revealing how the eye evolved naturally, models that

733
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:48,039
make perfect sense. We have examples of the various stages

734
00:46:48,559 --> 00:46:54,400
of eyes. Now you can find like the organisms with

735
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,880
the very basic eye that just detect light, and then

736
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,440
you can see more complex eyes throughout the animal kingdom.

737
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,800
You can actually see in real time the progression of

738
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,119
the eye and how it would and could happen. There

739
00:47:08,119 --> 00:47:11,639
were whole videos by scientists that take this one apart.

740
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,440
Apologists are like, look at the eye. I'm like, you

741
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,679
know what, Look at my bifocal glasses. Look at all

742
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,519
the people who had to go have lacic surgery. Look

743
00:47:21,559 --> 00:47:24,960
at the people who have chronic degenerative eyesight and have

744
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:27,320
a hard time seeing their way across the room. Look

745
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,840
at that? Tell me about that, not that the eye

746
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:35,119
isn't wondrous and complex and amazing, but whoever that designer was, somebody,

747
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:40,719
somebody needs to be fired. Also, notice how many complexity

748
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:47,440
of the eye apologists wear corrective lenses. Yeah, notice that.

749
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,039
How are we doing? If I missed any of the

750
00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:55,320
big apologetics out there? I know there's some that aren't

751
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,800
on my list. You can always sort of punch them

752
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,159
into the comments section and we'll take more eye of

753
00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:10,880
your calls next. And hope you're having a fantastic day

754
00:48:11,519 --> 00:48:15,679
and a great week. Despite all the insanity in the world.

755
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,719
This is a safe place. This is a hub, This

756
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,800
is family and a time for us to talk about

757
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,760
the things that amuse and occasionally frustrate us. This week,

758
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:32,800
it's bad apologetics. Let's talk to Sarah three three zero high.

759
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,480
Thanks for waiting on me. Are you there?

760
00:48:35,079 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Hey, it's great to talk to you.

761
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,800
I just wanted to say I heard the last guy talking.

762
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,400
I work in politics for fifteen years. I'm a political

763
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,960
communicator and protests work. They do they build the muscle

764
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,320
of resistance and they get you in your community for

765
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,880
bigger and better protests. So getting out there and you

766
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,880
advocating for that stuff is amazing because it means all

767
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,239
of us are going to be able to get out there.

768
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,400
Because we see the big people like you who have

769
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,519
these big followingsating for it, the more and more people

770
00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:02,239
are going to be doing it.

771
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 4: And that's that's amazing.

772
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,199
Speaker 2: That's good to hear. Because I'm activating with hands Off

773
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,559
twenty twenty five dot com, which is a hub where

774
00:49:11,559 --> 00:49:16,400
people can find various protests in their own zip code

775
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,480
or in their own region. And I mocked up this

776
00:49:19,639 --> 00:49:22,400
big sign for the protest in photoshop. I was real

777
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,519
proud of it. I had Trump's White House vote. It

778
00:49:25,559 --> 00:49:27,960
was posted on the official White House account of him

779
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:31,719
wearing the crown, and it said something like long lived

780
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,760
the King, and so under the image of King Trump

781
00:49:37,039 --> 00:49:40,159
posted by the White House, I put that Thomas Jefferson

782
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,480
quote from his letter to George Washington, where Jefferson said

783
00:49:43,599 --> 00:49:46,519
I was much an enemy to monarchy before I came

784
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:50,280
to Europe. I am ten thousand times more so since

785
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,840
I have seen what they are. And I debated, you know,

786
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,039
whether or not I should put kind of a thicker

787
00:49:57,199 --> 00:50:00,400
quote on a placard that I'm holding on a street

788
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,159
corner but I didn't want to go out and be

789
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:09,039
so snarky and sarcastic that anybody driving by or walking

790
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:11,599
by would immediately shut down and just think I was

791
00:50:11,639 --> 00:50:14,880
a woke, live, evil person. I don't think they can

792
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,800
do as much. With a quote from one of the

793
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,440
founding fathers, I think that takes some of the teeth

794
00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:21,679
out of them. I don't know. Do you have a

795
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:22,639
perspective on that?

796
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. So I'm working on this video on

797
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,880
why we need to rework federalism right now. And you

798
00:50:29,039 --> 00:50:31,280
just hit to the point of it, right, which is

799
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:36,159
that Republicans are attempting to create essentially petty dictator shifts

800
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:38,840
with their own rules and restrictions in every state. And

801
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,440
that's the same thing as a kingdom just writ small.

802
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,480
And what the federal government is supposed to do is

803
00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:47,639
protect our liberties and not reduce them into this like

804
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,400
Christian nationalist mindset. And we see that happening, especially in

805
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,679
your Oklahoma with the education stuff and with reproductive liberties everywhere. Yeah,

806
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,199
Thomas Jefferson is right that like this sort of rule

807
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,519
by the few, whether it's a king or a preacher,

808
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,440
is unfit for an American democracy.

809
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:09,199
Speaker 2: Oh, you're good. Any other advice for us as far

810
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,400
as what to do and where to do it, because

811
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,960
I think that's the one thing we're waiting for, the

812
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,360
flash point. We're waiting for the rallying flag. We want

813
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,440
to do something, but we don't know where to be effective,

814
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,679
and people feel helpless and sometimes give up any thoughts there.

815
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I originally come from like a very middle

816
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,719
class town in central Ohio, and I was triving to

817
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,360
see my parents. I saw like ten people out on

818
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,079
the corner of our city hall protesting Trump. Never seen

819
00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:38,960
that before in my life. You protest with your small

820
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,440
group of people in your community, build those structures of

821
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,639
support in places they've never been before, and that builds

822
00:51:45,639 --> 00:51:47,679
your muscles. So when the big action comes, and the

823
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:49,400
thing that the United States is kind of bad at

824
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,400
is getting to the mass mobilization. So that is the

825
00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:54,480
goal that everyone should be working for, is like a

826
00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:57,360
mass day of strike or just a mass day of

827
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,400
protest or whatever if it happened on like a Saturday

828
00:51:59,519 --> 00:52:01,599
or something, so that everybody gets out there and is

829
00:52:01,679 --> 00:52:04,119
ready to do it in their town because it has

830
00:52:04,159 --> 00:52:06,360
to be seen everywhere. It can't just be in DC

831
00:52:06,639 --> 00:52:07,719
and in Central Park.

832
00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 2: Good stuff. Thanks for offering that up wheelchew on it

833
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,920
and do something with it. Appreciate you so.

834
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: Much, Thank you, thank you for what you do.

835
00:52:16,039 --> 00:52:16,559
Speaker 4: You're amazing.

836
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: Oh, thanks so much. Take it easy, We'll see you.

837
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:23,280
Let's see that website that I was talking about is

838
00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:28,159
handsoff twenty twenty five dot com in the comments if

839
00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:31,639
you are aware of I know there's is it fifty

840
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,519
fifty one and it's the words fifty to fifty one

841
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,039
dot com? Is that right? They're another hub where people

842
00:52:40,119 --> 00:52:44,519
can find and either participate in or organize their own

843
00:52:44,679 --> 00:52:48,039
protest and go public. I think the more and more

844
00:52:48,079 --> 00:52:51,239
and more people are being visible. Once again, we have

845
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,280
spun from apologetic arguments that drive is crazy. Then we're

846
00:52:55,320 --> 00:53:00,639
talking about the culture, politics, Trump Project twenty twenty and

847
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,119
the end of all things, the decline of Western civilization.

848
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,719
I guess this is just so on everybody's mind. We're

849
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,199
going to gravitate back to that. I'll let you decide

850
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,360
if that's what you want to talk about. It's true

851
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,480
because the Bible says so using the book to prove

852
00:53:18,599 --> 00:53:22,639
the book that's always a joy. Have you heard this one?

853
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:28,599
All religions deserve respect. Why can't you respect religion? And

854
00:53:28,679 --> 00:53:32,280
I always respond that I think when possible, people should

855
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,679
get respect, But ideas have to earn it, don't they.

856
00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:39,480
Somebody walks in and they have a claim that we

857
00:53:39,519 --> 00:53:43,480
automatically say, well, that claim is deeply held, that's a

858
00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:48,199
sacred belief to one person. Therefore what that belief gets deference?

859
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:53,000
That's crazy. I saw somebody post this one. Oh, look,

860
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:59,639
they think they found Noah's Ark again. This was just

861
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:01,719
two or three weeks ago. I posted it on the

862
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,320
Thinking Atheists Facebook page. I'm like, how many times are

863
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,000
they going to discovered Noah's Ark and then realize it's

864
00:54:07,039 --> 00:54:14,760
a mound of freaking dirt. Look, it's a little overlooking thing.

865
00:54:15,639 --> 00:54:20,519
Therefore it is an arc. It is the arc of Genesis.

866
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:27,000
There are no atheists in Foxholes. You have not been

867
00:54:27,039 --> 00:54:29,079
listening to this show, as we have. Members of the

868
00:54:29,119 --> 00:54:32,840
military call quite often and they talk about what it's

869
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,280
like to be an atheist in the armed forces, often

870
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:41,800
deployed in combat. What about the longevity argument. If it's

871
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,960
not true, how come it's the most popular religion on

872
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,320
the planet two thousand years later?

873
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:49,639
Speaker 4: Right?

874
00:54:50,639 --> 00:54:52,639
Speaker 2: If it's not true, why has it been around for

875
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,119
thousands upon thousands of years. Of course it's true, or

876
00:54:57,199 --> 00:55:01,880
it wouldn't have stuck. Are you kidding? Or look at it?

877
00:55:02,159 --> 00:55:05,960
Can two billion people be wrong? And of course our

878
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:15,440
answer is yes, you know, yeah, I'm sorry. Mass delusion

879
00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:18,400
is delusion, isn't it? I did just I don't know.

880
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,159
That's just me. Let's see, is it? Emily at six

881
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,400
six zero high? Are you there?

882
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 1: Hello?

883
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: Hi a Emily, welcome. We're talking apologetics, arguments that make

884
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,840
us crazy? Is that what you want to talk about?

885
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 6: Yeah? When you brought up the Passcales wager earlier, it

886
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,280
made me think it was an argument my grandma actually

887
00:55:40,679 --> 00:55:42,599
pretty us. It gives me once it's similar to the

888
00:55:42,639 --> 00:55:47,719
past those wagers, except she admitted She's like, oh, I

889
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:49,960
understand that I may be wrong and go to hell,

890
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:53,400
but I would rather die trying. Does that make sense?

891
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 2: How sad? Is that kind of a life? You are

892
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,000
pledging at least an outward allegiance to the one who

893
00:56:00,159 --> 00:56:03,119
might burn you in a furnace, and that's kind of

894
00:56:03,119 --> 00:56:04,360
the place she's stuck with.

895
00:56:04,559 --> 00:56:07,559
Speaker 6: Huh Yeah, I think so. I mean this was several

896
00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:11,800
years ago, so like I maybe misremembering, but Yeah, that's

897
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,480
how I remember. It almost felt like she was gambling.

898
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 2: Oh, it is gambling. It's very much not a statement

899
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:23,000
of conviction. It's hedging your bets. And I think the

900
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:27,400
lack of conviction in that position essentially it's self interest.

901
00:56:27,679 --> 00:56:30,519
So it's very sad to hear, but it does sound accurate.

902
00:56:30,639 --> 00:56:32,480
So anything else.

903
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: Oh, not off?

904
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,559
Speaker 6: Ten, I don't. I really appreciate you taking my call,

905
00:56:36,679 --> 00:56:38,639
and I appreciate all the work you do.

906
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 2: And no, it's a joy to speak to you. You

907
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,880
keep on keeping on and call the show again sometime. Okay, okay,

908
00:56:49,119 --> 00:56:52,719
Ignore the Old Testament and focus on the New Testament.

909
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,719
Have you heard that one? I'm sorry? Did you just

910
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,679
write off more than half of the bottom. Did you

911
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,960
just like a machete and go shunk? Ignore that? Ignore

912
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,239
the Old Testament, which means what now? The Adam and

913
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:12,039
Eves story's gone. Ten Commandments are gone, the exodus from Egypt,

914
00:57:12,119 --> 00:57:15,320
all that's gone, The walls of Jericha, all that stuff's gone.

915
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:15,679
Speaker 4: Eh.

916
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:22,039
Speaker 2: Whatever, it's shunk or Jesus came and undid the Old Testament,

917
00:57:22,119 --> 00:57:24,360
which means they haven't read the Book of Matthew, where

918
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:29,159
God actually Jesus guarantees that all the law will be fulfilled,

919
00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:33,960
you know, including in the Old Testament. It's crazy. There

920
00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:38,880
was another comment. Let's see evil atheist said in the comment,

921
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,440
so if people wouldn't die for a lie, you all

922
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,159
better become Muslims real fast. Well to die for a

923
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,719
lie comment we heard with Mel Gibson on the Joe

924
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:54,920
Rogan podcast. He made the claim people don't die for

925
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,760
a lie, meaning that the apostles who were killed for

926
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,280
their faith, they wouldn't have died if it wasn't true.

927
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:07,400
There was so much wrong with that statement. Was I

928
00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:10,440
on this show or a different show where I was

929
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,280
talking about the Heaven's Gate cult? All right, they put

930
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,000
on the purple tennis shoes or whatever, and they drank

931
00:58:17,039 --> 00:58:20,400
poison so they could rendezvous with the comet. Well, they

932
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,320
were convinced they were sincere. Did they die for a lie?

933
00:58:23,559 --> 00:58:27,559
Jim Jones's followers, nine hundred people dead in the field.

934
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:32,039
Did they die for a lie? Yeah, they kind of did. Right.

935
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,599
This idea that somebody is willing to and to the

936
00:58:35,679 --> 00:58:41,039
Muslim faith, to Islamic extremism, the jihadists who are willing

937
00:58:41,119 --> 00:58:44,679
to blow themselves and everybody else up to achieve paradise

938
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,320
and the virgins and everything else. Did they die for

939
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,679
a lie? Yeah, they kind of did. Let's talk to

940
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,440
Steve nine to seven zero. Welcome, thanks for calling.

941
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,599
Speaker 8: What's up, hey, SEFs, great to be on your show.

942
00:59:01,559 --> 00:59:05,239
I wanted to make one comment about the stupid thing

943
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,440
that theists say to defend their religion. And I get

944
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:13,119
into these discussions with Jehovah's witnesses occasionally and they always

945
00:59:13,159 --> 00:59:16,440
end up saying, well, you know, they can't answer the question,

946
00:59:16,559 --> 00:59:20,079
but you'll find out. You'll find out when you die,

947
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:22,920
you know, which I think is ridiculous.

948
00:59:23,239 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, just wait till you're dad. Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome.

949
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,159
Speaker 8: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to comment on and

950
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:36,559
our political situation. I'm seventy one years old, so I

951
00:59:36,599 --> 00:59:42,360
was ten years old when JFK was assassinated. And even

952
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,760
though I was ten years old, I remember thinking, wow,

953
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:50,880
you know, they can just somebody can come along and

954
00:59:51,079 --> 00:59:54,320
kill the president, and you know, then our whole political

955
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:59,480
system goes into chaos. And then they assassinated his brother,

956
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,679
and then they killed Martin Luther King, and so we've

957
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:10,360
been living through, you know, some really bad stuff. So

958
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,280
it seems like what Trump is doing and Elon is

959
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:19,000
doing actually doesn't seem so bad after what we've been through.

960
01:00:19,719 --> 01:00:21,320
This is a good thing in a way that it's

961
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,960
a wake up call. People are going to start saying,

962
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,199
wait a minute, you know whoa you know, maybe we

963
01:00:27,199 --> 01:00:30,920
should start paying attention. And I think it's going to

964
01:00:31,119 --> 01:00:32,679
create a lot more activism.

965
01:00:32,719 --> 01:00:38,679
Speaker 2: And you are saying that we haven't had presidential assassinations

966
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,800
and like the Martin Luther King tragedy, et cetera, the

967
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,880
murder of the civil rights activists, we haven't gotten to

968
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,480
that point where again there was gunfire and blood and

969
01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:51,920
murder in the streets of these people. So given where

970
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:57,719
we are, this is a zeitgeist changing point where the

971
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,559
resistance rises, and we should see it as a good thing.

972
01:01:00,639 --> 01:01:03,079
I don't know, A might hear in that rhyin state, Well,

973
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:07,159
I don't necessarily think it's a good thing, but I

974
01:01:07,239 --> 01:01:10,320
do think it's a point of you know, if you

975
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,760
look at history and you see any violent revolutions that

976
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,840
have occurred, it's usually only when things get so bad

977
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,239
that people just can't do anything else. But you know,

978
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,159
get out on out in the streets and we may

979
01:01:25,239 --> 01:01:28,760
be again at that point. Like like I said, they

980
01:01:29,079 --> 01:01:31,800
refer back to the nineteen sixties when they had the

981
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:35,159
riots and the streets and there was you know, it

982
01:01:35,719 --> 01:01:38,960
had gotten so bad that people, you know, the protests

983
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:43,960
of Vietnam War, for example. So it's just all happening again,

984
01:01:44,119 --> 01:01:47,920
and maybe we finally will get to a point where,

985
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,440
you know, we can fix a lot of the problems

986
01:01:50,559 --> 01:01:51,880
in the government that.

987
01:01:54,199 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 8: You know. And that's what I'm saying. I think this

988
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:58,800
is going to be a good thing, and that it

989
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,920
brings out the awareness that we haven't had for so long.

990
01:02:03,039 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 2: I wish I shared your optimism as I watched the

991
01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:13,519
deportations and the shutdowns of governments, offices, protective measures, judges

992
01:02:13,599 --> 01:02:18,559
under fire, the alienation of the United States against its

993
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:23,199
allies who have supported us over the centuries. I wish

994
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,239
I had your optimism. But maybe maybe there will be

995
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,920
a correction and maybe we'll survive it. All I know

996
01:02:31,039 --> 01:02:34,119
is to keep activisting out there. Steve, So thanks for

997
01:02:34,199 --> 01:02:37,360
calling the show. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you, all right,

998
01:02:37,519 --> 01:02:43,119
We'll see you later. How many people have heard Hitler

999
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:48,880
invoked by apologists? I probably jacked up my own algorithm.

1000
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,440
I have noticed that whenever we talk about sensitive things

1001
01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:54,840
like this. I don't think I'm being paranoid or a

1002
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,039
conspiracy theorist, but I have noticed whenever we talk about

1003
01:02:58,119 --> 01:03:05,360
sensitive stuff that those shows get less exposure on YouTube.

1004
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,519
I've noticed that. I can't help but wonder if they're

1005
01:03:09,559 --> 01:03:14,440
being scanned for hot button terms and then AI or

1006
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,960
whatever is knocking them down lower as far as the

1007
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,559
exposure pool to potential listeners and viewers. But I'm going

1008
01:03:22,599 --> 01:03:25,079
to I mean, I don't know how to say Hitler

1009
01:03:25,199 --> 01:03:28,719
without saying Hitler. And one of the arguments is Hitler

1010
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,239
was an atheist, meaning they have aligned non belief in

1011
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:37,239
gods with one of the greatest tyrants, if not the

1012
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,360
greatest tyrant and mass murderer of the twentieth century. And

1013
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,800
I know it's a strong field, but you know, we

1014
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,360
hear a lot of this Stalin was an atheist, and

1015
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,320
I think, actually you need to do a little homework,

1016
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,400
especially on I think Stalin may have been a non believer,

1017
01:03:51,519 --> 01:03:55,920
But you know, Hitler invoked God all the time. He

1018
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,800
wrote about God and God's mission. You know, he believed

1019
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,039
he was doing God's god work. He wrote about it

1020
01:04:01,079 --> 01:04:04,519
in mindcomft. He preached about it and screamed about it

1021
01:04:04,519 --> 01:04:07,440
from podiums in front of tens and tens and tens

1022
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,239
of thousands of people. And he had alignments and allegiances

1023
01:04:11,239 --> 01:04:13,559
with the Catholic Church and blah blah blah. And of

1024
01:04:13,559 --> 01:04:16,119
course when I say that, the apologists say, well, he

1025
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:20,599
wasn't really a true Christian. He was just politically aligning

1026
01:04:20,719 --> 01:04:25,159
with powerful organizations to be able to achieve his end goal.

1027
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:31,840
Isn't that a convenient little excuse? You say? Okay, so

1028
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,079
if they do good, they're a real Christian, and if

1029
01:04:34,119 --> 01:04:38,519
they do evil, then they're not a Christian. I've been

1030
01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:42,239
told that I just want to play God myself. The

1031
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:46,920
reason you, arrogant, arrogant man, The only reason that you've

1032
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:51,639
rejected God is because you wish to take God's place.

1033
01:04:51,679 --> 01:04:54,559
I've been told that Christianity is not a religion, it's

1034
01:04:54,599 --> 01:04:57,320
a relationship, and so I've got it all wrong. Well,

1035
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:01,039
of course I gave up religion. I'm not religion. I

1036
01:05:01,079 --> 01:05:04,000
have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I guess which speaks

1037
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,599
to the personal experience and the anecdote angle that many

1038
01:05:07,639 --> 01:05:13,039
people use. I've got a web call from Mike. Mike,

1039
01:05:13,079 --> 01:05:13,599
are you there.

1040
01:05:14,039 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 9: Hey, can you hear we?

1041
01:05:15,079 --> 01:05:18,119
Speaker 2: Okay, I can. Indeed, let's talk what's on your mind.

1042
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:22,599
Speaker 9: Well, I'm not from the US. I'm from Europe. I'm

1043
01:05:22,639 --> 01:05:26,159
from Holland, as you might say. And I might have

1044
01:05:26,639 --> 01:05:30,840
an interesting perspective for you guys, because around my parts

1045
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,719
there's not really a hub of religion as you might call, like,

1046
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:37,719
we don't have something like the Bible belt, right. So

1047
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:42,199
I was brought up atheists. My friends were brought up atheists.

1048
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:46,480
I think the thing that you pointed out earlier is

1049
01:05:46,519 --> 01:05:51,599
that religion and upbringing is so closely tied together that

1050
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:56,920
since I was brought up in that environment of non religion,

1051
01:05:57,119 --> 01:06:00,960
that I cannot really relate to a p or a

1052
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,440
group of persons that is so intensely religious that they

1053
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:08,000
cannot see my point of view. So I'm wondering is

1054
01:06:08,039 --> 01:06:13,039
there a possibility of having arguments with each other at all?

1055
01:06:14,039 --> 01:06:17,159
Speaker 2: I know that many people, especially here in this highly

1056
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:21,480
religious United States or highly religious pockets of United States,

1057
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,159
and they're big pockets. They are sincere believers living in

1058
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:30,079
an alternate reality. And I think at some point, when possible,

1059
01:06:30,159 --> 01:06:33,320
we do have to have the hard discussions about what's

1060
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,199
true what's not, what's been proven, what's moral, and what's not.

1061
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,400
And I know in more secular countries they look at

1062
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:43,119
us and wonder what in the hell is going on here?

1063
01:06:43,639 --> 01:06:46,000
But I think you know there can What was it

1064
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:49,079
Christopher Hitchin said something like there can be no progress

1065
01:06:49,119 --> 01:06:52,199
without confrontation, and I think we are now at a

1066
01:06:52,239 --> 01:06:56,119
confrontation point in our history, and that's what we must

1067
01:06:56,119 --> 01:06:59,360
be doing and focusing on. Okay, Mike, I guess so,

1068
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,679
all right, thanks for that perspective. I appreciate the call

1069
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:04,639
very much. Take care of yourself. We'll see you later.

1070
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,800
Of said, many Founding fathers were Christian, yet they still

1071
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:14,000
knew the importance of separation and church of church and state.

1072
01:07:14,559 --> 01:07:17,159
What are great points? I made this point as well

1073
01:07:17,199 --> 01:07:19,840
in his speech I released a few weeks ago called

1074
01:07:20,079 --> 01:07:24,400
Jefferson's Jesus, and we talk about First of all, it's

1075
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,079
irrelevant whether or not the founders had a personal faith.

1076
01:07:27,599 --> 01:07:29,920
Some may have believed in God, some were deists, some

1077
01:07:30,159 --> 01:07:32,719
like Jesus as a philosopher, some may have believed in

1078
01:07:32,719 --> 01:07:35,280
a divine Jesus. But when it came to the founding

1079
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,159
and the structure of the United States, they purposefully left

1080
01:07:38,239 --> 01:07:40,840
God out of the constitution. People are like, we're a

1081
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:44,079
Christian nation. Why because God's on the money? Uh huh,

1082
01:07:44,119 --> 01:07:46,159
where'd that come from? God's in the pledge?

1083
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:46,679
Speaker 4: Uh huh?

1084
01:07:46,719 --> 01:07:50,519
Speaker 2: Where'd that come from? And you know this idea that

1085
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,480
because somebody printed it somewhere, it's there. Okay, Well, where's

1086
01:07:54,519 --> 01:07:58,159
God printed in the United States Constitution, the governing document

1087
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:04,400
of the entire country. Uh uh? And then their head

1088
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,840
pops off and you see a spring kind of hanging

1089
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,440
out of the neck, like, I'm sorry, show me one

1090
01:08:10,519 --> 01:08:13,639
mention of God, show me the word God anywhere in

1091
01:08:13,679 --> 01:08:19,560
the United States Constitution. There's the nd argument near death experience.

1092
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:23,359
I was on my deathbed. My heart stopped for a second.

1093
01:08:23,399 --> 01:08:25,479
I floated above my body, or I saw a white

1094
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,279
light and there was Grandma, and then Jesus was behind Grandma,

1095
01:08:28,319 --> 01:08:30,840
and then God was behind Jesus who was behind Grandma.

1096
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:32,840
And it was a big It was like a big chain.

1097
01:08:33,159 --> 01:08:35,720
Everybody reached out their hand. And so therefore I know,

1098
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,439
of course you and I are listening to the stories

1099
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:42,800
about the brain deprived of oxygen and we're thinking hypoxia.

1100
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:48,600
We're not thinking that heaven is real. Why Are you

1101
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:53,239
stealing my joy? Why do you have to be such

1102
01:08:53,279 --> 01:08:58,039
a pain about now? You know, I'm sorry. Don't ever

1103
01:08:58,119 --> 01:09:01,920
let those people call us snowflakes. And the biggest freaking

1104
01:09:02,159 --> 01:09:06,079
Ryan Walters is the biggest freaking snowflake on the planet.

1105
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:10,520
For somebody who doesn't believe in God, you seem obsessed.

1106
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,119
You talk about God all the time. I think this

1107
01:09:14,199 --> 01:09:16,479
is self conscious and I'm like, you know, why do

1108
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,640
cancer survivors or people who want to promote public health

1109
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:25,159
talk about cancer so much? Do they worship cancer? Do

1110
01:09:25,239 --> 01:09:29,279
they believe in cancer? Do they love cancer? Are they

1111
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:33,479
in denial about cancer? Is this a self conscious, sinful

1112
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:37,520
approach to cancer? No, you acknowledge that it's doing harm

1113
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:39,640
and you want to see the harm stopped?

1114
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 4: Right?

1115
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:43,359
Speaker 2: Why do you talk about God all the time? If

1116
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,159
I don't believe in God? Is such a bad argument?

1117
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:51,479
I guess the final apologetic that I hear that makes

1118
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,159
me crazy is you may not believe in God, but

1119
01:09:55,279 --> 01:09:58,760
he believes in you. That's I think that that's awesome.

1120
01:09:59,319 --> 01:10:01,800
How to say on thing without saying anything at all.

1121
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:06,560
You may not believe in Jesus, but he believes in you. Oh,

1122
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,279
thank you for that. Thank you for that nugget of wisdom.

1123
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:13,279
Can I get an amen? Thanks for joining me for

1124
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,479
the broadcast. Keep on keeping on. I'm going to go

1125
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:22,079
and find the next protest that is going on right now.

1126
01:10:22,359 --> 01:10:25,840
My main hub is Hands Off twenty twenty five. But

1127
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:27,479
if you've got some out there, put them in the

1128
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,159
comments and we'll find rally points. Together, we can go

1129
01:10:30,239 --> 01:10:34,079
out and protest the injustice, stand for what is rights,

1130
01:10:34,079 --> 01:10:36,920
and make a difference. Be safe, I'll see you later.

1131
01:10:37,199 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

1132
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:44,399
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1133
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:48,119
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1134
01:10:48,159 --> 01:10:51,840
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1135
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:58,640
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