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Every 55 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 56 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:34.479 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 57 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:49.240 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening for the first time. 58 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.960 Award winning investigative journalist M William Phelps reveals the identity 59 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.000 of Raven, the serial killer who co starred with him 60 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.879 on Dark Minds, and tells the story of his intriguing 61 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:05.479 with one of America's most disturbing killers. In September twenty eleven, 62 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:08.800 M William Phelps made a bold decision that would change 63 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:13.039 the landscape of reality based television and his own life. 64 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:15.439 He asked a convicted serial killer to act as a 65 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:19.439 consultant for his TV series under the code name Raven, 66 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:22.879 the Murderer shared his insights into the minds of other 67 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:27.159 killers and helped analyze their crimes. As the series became 68 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:34.280 an international sensation, Raven became Phelps's unlikely confidant, ally and friend. 69 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:38.319 In this deeply personal account, Phelps traces his own family's 70 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.520 dark history and takes us into the heart and soul 71 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:45.680 of a serial murderer. He also chronicles the complex relationships 72 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.919 he developed with Raven, from questions about morality to Raven's 73 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.479 thoughts on the still unsolved brutal myrdal of Phelps's sister 74 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:57.960 in law. The author found himself grappling with an unwonted, unexpected, 75 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:02.879 unsettling connection with a c old, blooded killer. Drawing on 76 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:06.280 over seven thousand pages of letters, dozens of hours of 77 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:10.639 recorded conversations, personal and Skype visits, and a friendship five 78 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:13.840 years in the making, Phelps shed's new light on Raven's 79 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:18.560 bloody history, including details of an unknown victim, the location 80 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:22.199 of a still buried body. In a jaw dropping admission, 81 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:27.120 eye opening and provocative, dangerous ground is an unforgettable journey 82 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:31.439 into the mind of a charming, manipulative psychopath that few 83 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:35.839 would dare to know and the determined journalist who did 84 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:38.759 just that. The book that we're featuring this evening is 85 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:43.439 Dangerous Ground, My Friendship with a Serial Killer with journalist 86 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:48.000 and author and television producer M William Phelps. Welcome back 87 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:49.600 to the program, and thank you very much for a 88 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:54.600 Greenness interview. M William Phelps, Dan, how you doing. 89 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:56.879 Thank you call me Matthew. Good to be back. 90 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Thank you, Thank you very much Matthew for joining us 91 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.240 once again. This I've called it one of your, if 92 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:08.040 not your most important book. I just incredible journey you 93 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.680 were going to take us on this evening as you've 94 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.000 taken me in reading of this book, Dangerous Ground. You 95 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:20.360 talk about this book being somewhat of a hybrid. So 96 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:22.839 tell us why this is a hybrid and in what 97 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.439 way is it a mix of styles of true crime 98 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:27.040 and memoir. 99 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:32.959 Well, yeah, it's a hybrid because I you know, I 100 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:35.240 never set out to write this book. This book kind 101 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:40.959 of developed as I got to know Raven aka Keith jesperson, 102 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:44.759 a happy face killer, better and better, and I realized 103 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:48.399 that having access to a serial killer such as Jessperson, 104 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:53.600 who trusted me one hundred percent that I could ask 105 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.319 him anything I wanted. So over the course of many years, 106 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:01.360 you know, I interviewed him and I grew into this 107 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:07.319 collection of information that I needed to do something with, 108 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:09.360 and so what do I do with it? And what 109 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:14.879 I decided was ever since the Dark Mind Daring on 110 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:19.600 ID in twenty eleven, I believe it started, people been 111 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:22.519 asking me about my sister in law's case, and you know, 112 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:25.680 she was five months pregnant, she was thirty six years old. 113 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.560 She was strangled to death with a pillowcase over her head, 114 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:33.680 telephone quote around her neck, and my brother subsequently died 115 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:39.319 several years later. And thinking about that story, always ask 116 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:41.920 me how I got into true crime, writing my journey, 117 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.399 and people asked me my own story. So I figured 118 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:48.879 this was a great opportunity to tell all those stories 119 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:52.920 and kind of use Jessperson's story as the backdrop for it. 120 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:58.040 So the first section of the book is called friends, 121 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:02.120 the second section is called family, and the third section 122 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.399 is called faith. And you know, the friends is a 123 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:08.120 loose term, but you know, I talk about our relationship there, 124 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:11.199 and in the middle I talk about his family, his background, 125 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.319 him as a child and me as a child did 126 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.920 we go back and forth and then the end is faith. 127 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:20.680 It's how I lost faith and how he has had 128 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:22.360 faith in me to tell his story. 129 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:30.160 Now, you talk about first contacting him in September twenty eleven, 130 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:33.240 So tell us just a little bit about how you 131 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.720 wrote him, what you included in that to convince him, 132 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:40.120 and what was his response. Tell us a little bit 133 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:41.279 about that correspondence. 134 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.680 Initially, Well, it started when the first season of Dark Minds, 135 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:46.759 we had a killer on the show that we referred 136 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.680 to as thirteen. That was his code name. And that 137 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:54.000 guy was not Raven, he was not Jefferson. He was 138 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:56.759 another guy that I won't name because it's not my guy. 139 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.439 If you will, it's John Kelly. John Kelly's my forensic 140 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.439 psychologist that was on the show with me, and that 141 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.199 was his guy. Well, at the end of that season, 142 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:08.399 Kelly says, you should develop your own guy, you know, 143 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:13.360 And so in late twenty ten, I started writing to 144 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:17.519 different serial killers, and John Kelly's one who suggested really 145 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.319 Jess Person, Joel Rifkin, a couple others, and I wrote 146 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.360 to these guys and I began to get letters back 147 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:26.079 and jess person just struck me as a kind of 148 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:29.040 guy who wanted to talk and talk and talk, and 149 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:33.039 the kind of guy who really wanted to impress me. 150 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:38.639 He knew my work, he had read my work, and 151 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:41.519 he was impressed by what I had done. He really 152 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:45.840 respected me as a writer, and I started to receive, 153 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:48.480 you know, an abundant letters from him, and then we 154 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:50.720 started talking on the phone, and I realized right away that, 155 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:53.120 you know, he's the guy we need for the show. 156 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:58.600 Now. There was two things going on though, in that 157 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:03.679 you had him as a consultant on the show Dark Minds, 158 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.120 and tell us what you what his role was in 159 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:11.279 terms of that involved with the series for those that 160 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.200 didn't see it, but also what was what was unfolding 161 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.360 beyond that or besides that at the same time. 162 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:23.320 Well, dark Minds is the way it was pitched is 163 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.559 the silence of the Lambs meets catch me if you can. 164 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:31.039 And what that means is when I created the show, 165 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.039 I wanted I wanted to look at unsolved serial killer cases. 166 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.120 There's many unsolved serial killer cases throughout the United States, 167 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:42.080 Zodiac being one of the most famous. You know, the 168 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:48.120 original night Stalker case down in California, the Texas Killing Fields, Florida. 169 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.639 I mean, I could go on and on, and I 170 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.000 wanted to look at those cases and bring some exposure 171 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:56.519 to those cases because those a lot of those cases 172 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:00.279 are just collecting dust. And so the way I design 173 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:02.679 the show was I go out, I investigate, I do 174 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.960 my own work, I interview cops, I inter members of 175 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.639 the victims and so forth. But then I go back 176 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.440 to John Kelly, my forensic psychologists, and kind of build 177 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:13.360 a profile with him as the guy we might be 178 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:21.000 looking for the unsubs as we call them, and unidentified subject. 179 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:27.360 And then we go to a serial killer on the phone. 180 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:30.200 We don't expose who he is, we disguise his voice, 181 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:35.679 and we'd get his opinion after I said the case 182 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:40.080 that I'm looking at that particular week, that episode, and 183 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:44.279 the way I'd explained it's no different really than using 184 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.279 Phil Simms from the New York Giants to comment on 185 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:50.759 the Giants game on Sunday on CBS. I mecause it's 186 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.159 really the same concept. You know, you're going to an 187 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:57.320 expert in the field for expert analysis of what you're doing, 188 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:01.480 and there's no better expert to quality to help you 189 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:06.399 catch the serial killer than a serial killer. So that's 190 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:09.120 what that's the premise of the show. And and for 191 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:13.000 your listeners, you can go to YouTube and just google 192 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.440 Dark Minds and you come up with probably fifteen of 193 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:21.240 the twenty two episodes we filmed. And and you'll hear 194 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:24.279 Raven and and you know, so I would ask him, 195 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:25.919 you know, to give any example, Dan, I would, I 196 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:29.519 would say, you know, I'd send him information about a 197 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:34.000 killer and a case, and he'd look at he'd got 198 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:36.080 the victims, he'd look at the way the bodies were found, 199 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:38.720 he'd look at all the everything, and he'd relate it 200 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:42.080 back to his own mind and what he would do 201 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:47.440 in this certain situation. And he'd give that analysis. And 202 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:49.519 it helped. I believe it helped. 203 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.639 Now you talk about this, the incredible amount of letters 204 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:59.320 and pages of letters, and the numerous calls and there 205 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:03.320 was phone calls so many that at certain times you 206 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.879 did not answer him. But over this five year period, 207 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.080 But tell us about your visit at the Oregon State 208 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:12.879 Penitentiary in twenty twelve. 209 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.480 Yeah, the first time I went out and seen him. Wow, 210 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:26.360 for many reasons, it was a devastating experience. In many ways, 211 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:29.600 talking to him for about a year. By then he 212 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:34.279 had been consulting on Dark Minds. He had written so 213 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.159 many letters to me. I couldn't even tell you how 214 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:40.120 many during that year. Is seven more than seven thousand 215 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.240 pages over the course of the five years I received 216 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:45.200 from him as far as letters go, I have probably 217 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.879 fifty or sixty letters right now sitting on my desk 218 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.159 in my office that are unopened that I just I 219 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:55.080 can't keep up with the guy amazing. So I went 220 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:59.279 out there and I was with my crew from Dark Minds. 221 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:02.879 We were actually shooting in Oregon at the time. Uh. 222 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:05.360 And I went out there and I sat with him, 223 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:08.879 and you know, and he's a massive man. I mean 224 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:11.279 he's six seven at the time, he was over three 225 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:16.399 hundred pounds. And you know, we sat chair chair, and 226 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.080 I mean inches away from each other. And I sat 227 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.600 and I'm a pretty solid guy. I'm a big guy, 228 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:27.240 and you know, he was just massive. And he's sitting 229 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:30.120 there in front of me, and his two hands were 230 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.519 on his knees and his hands were maybe I don't know, 231 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:35.440 eighteen inches away from me. And the first thought I 232 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.399 had was, those are the same hands that strangled eight women, 233 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.799 you know, And here they are just inches away from 234 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:45.559 my own throat. So I said to him, I said, 235 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.799 I said, I said, I called him Ray, you know, 236 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:51.559 I called him Raven or jesperson. I said, could you 237 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:55.080 kill me? Could you kill me? Because at this time 238 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.080 we had become he had he had, he had begun 239 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.519 to really start to trust me. I was his confident. 240 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.840 I mean, he really really liked me at this time, 241 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:07.080 a year into it. And he said, if I had to, 242 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:10.879 he said, I wouldn't want to, but if I had to, 243 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.120 I could. I could easily kill you if you were 244 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:19.360 in the way. And so so, you know, thus began 245 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:23.840 our personal relationship there physical we were right in front 246 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.200 of each other, and we just began to talk and 247 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:30.279 I began to just develop them as a source. And 248 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.279 what was the devastating part about the day was not 249 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:36.720 only everything he said, but when I left there, I left, 250 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.960 I left the prison kind of in a daze, you know. 251 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:42.759 And so me and my crew we go down the street, 252 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:44.759 we go to the Kinko's, We go to the coffee shop, 253 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:48.279 and someone broke into our vehicle and stole my bag 254 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:50.519 and I got stuck in Oregon. We were on our 255 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:53.279 way to Vancouver. It was a nightmare. It just turned 256 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.759 into a nightmare and it and really, Danny, it goes 257 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.600 back to something John Kelly, my forensic psychology just warned 258 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:04.159 me about before I embarked on this journey. Because John 259 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.960 Kelly had been talking to serial killers for many, many years, 260 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:11.519 John Wayne Gacy, many many famous serial killers he'd interviewed, 261 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:14.600 and he said to me, he said, Matt, listen. He said, 262 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.919 you're a tough guy. You know, you're strong, You're solid. 263 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:21.679 You're a Catholic. I mean you're not only are a Catholic, 264 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:23.679 but you go to Mass four or five times a week. 265 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.559 You know you you think you've got control of everything. 266 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:30.759 You've written thirty books about murderers. You've written six seven 267 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:33.600 books about serial killers, he said. But let me tell 268 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.240 you something. He said, if the devil knocks on your 269 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.679 door and you let them in, you better be ready 270 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.519 to dance with him, because if you're not, he's going 271 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.440 to get inside your head. And I kind of laughed 272 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.559 at Kelly in my own little funny way that we 273 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:51.639 joke around, and I said, come on, Kelly, you're talking 274 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:54.919 about Phelps. Man. I'm tough, rock solid. No one's gonna 275 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.639 crack me. But boy, you read that book Dan and 276 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:00.639 he broke me and broke me. 277 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:06.639 You talk about that, But it's a big process. And 278 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:09.519 as John Kelly warned you is do not let your 279 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.440 guard down. And part of that you believed in not 280 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.159 letting your guard down was to keep your personal life 281 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:15.919 to yourself. 282 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:17.159 Right. 283 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:19.960 How was it then that you did share this stuff? 284 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.679 How explain as you do in the book the process 285 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.279 that those lines get, the professional lines and the personal 286 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:27.960 lines get blurred as they did. 287 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.879 It's you know, the metaphor that just came out of 288 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.399 me while I was I started doing this this this 289 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:39.120 media tour. Is that is that you know, I live 290 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:43.080 in Connecticut. So the coastline is the water. Whether it's 291 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:47.559 August or July or September, the water's freezing at sixty degrees. 292 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.279 You jump in that ocean water in sixty degrees and 293 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.399 it's jarring. It shocks your body. But you know what 294 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.159 happens after you stay in it a while, you get 295 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.480 used to it. Now the temperature of the water has 296 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:04.759 not changed, You've just gotten used to it. And so 297 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:07.039 so this is what happened over the course of the time. 298 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.440 I mean, I was talking to this guy happy face. 299 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:13.240 So much. I was reading his letters, and at one 300 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:16.319 time the prison decides, okay, you guys want to start skyping, 301 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.920 You're welcome to do that. So we start skyping. So 302 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.920 this guy's infected every part of my life. And you know, 303 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.319 here's an example. Here's a small example, because Kelly always 304 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.920 told me, John Kelly, he said, matt He said, when 305 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.279 you pick up that phone, be ready psychologically. You always 306 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:36.359 have to be em William Phelps. When you pick up 307 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.400 that phone. You can never be Matthew. He calls me, Matthew, 308 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.960 you can never be that guy, that husband, that father. 309 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:46.640 You can't be that guy. You gotta be em William Phelps. 310 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.440 So here's an example of how it would go. We'd 311 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.920 be talking and talking about, you know, all these clinical things, 312 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:57.640 these serial killer stuff, and I'd say, listen, man, I 313 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.039 got to go. My daughter's got a volley I'll talk 314 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:04.039 to you tomorrow or next week or whatever. Bang hang up. 315 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:08.480 And I'd stop and I'd say I slipped, because the 316 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.480 next time I would talk to him, this is how 317 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.440 the conversation would begin. How did that volleyball game turn out? 318 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.720 With your daughter? And I'd get pissed and I'd say, listen, man, 319 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.119 you don't have the right to ask me about my 320 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.039 personal life. And he'd say, well, you invited it, you know, 321 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:28.079 you mentioned it, So I just thought it was okay. 322 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.200 So little things like that begin to slip, and then 323 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:33.680 you begin, you know, that slips farther and farther until 324 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:35.960 you realize it. So that's how that went. 325 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.720 You talk about the first year or more of the 326 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:49.200 one issue that Raven harps about and wants you to 327 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:54.240 do his bidding in regards to re examining or reinvestigating this. 328 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.200 So tell us what he wants you to do about 329 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.240 Tyina Bennett and what you do end up doing on 330 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:02.839 his behalf. 331 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.480 So one of the things he banged on about, I 332 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.119 mean obsessively. I mean he must have rode a thousand 333 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:16.200 pages about the case. In the hundreds of hours of 334 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:23.119 audio that I have recorded with half, if not half 335 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:26.319 a third, is about Tanya Bennett. And Tanya Bennett was 336 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.279 his first murder or in the state of Oregon. It 337 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:35.640 was his first murder overall. It happened in Portland. And 338 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:38.519 what happens is with Tanya Bennett is in nineteen ninety 339 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:42.119 he kills Tanya Bennett, dumps her body like near the 340 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:47.680 Vista House outside of Portland, and two people are subsequently 341 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:54.200 arrested for that murder, tried and convicted while he is 342 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:58.119 now becoming this serial killer. So he's watching his process 343 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.960 unfold as he's killing other people, other women. He sees 344 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.000 two people and put in prison for murder he committed, 345 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:08.920 and he's at first he's laughing about it. It's funny 346 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.079 and wow, I've gotten away with it. Not only have 347 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:14.000 I gotten away with it, but two people are in prison. 348 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:19.319 And then we fast forward to I think it's nineteen 349 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:24.400 ninety six, and he's arrested, he's put in prison for life, 350 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:32.240 and he's in his cell and an article it comes 351 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.200 out in the La Times, a big, huge article. I mean, 352 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.200 I don't know how many words it was, but it's 353 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:42.240 eleven pages long or something Internet page is long, by 354 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:46.319 Barry Siegel. I believe the big time journalist, big time 355 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.000 article about happy face and this tiny Bennett case and 356 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.079 how two people could be wrongly convicted of this crime. 357 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.920 And Jefferson reads this article and he gets in. He 358 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.240 claims he has an epiphany that oh my god, God, 359 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.160 not only were two people wrong, you know wrongly, you know, 360 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.400 convicted and tried and convicted and put away. But I 361 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.400 believe the prosecutor and the cops knew that they had 362 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:15.960 the wrong people, and they still prosecuted them anyway. And 363 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:21.119 if there's one thing about jessperson that he is obsessive about, 364 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.920 it's the fact that he's admitted his wrongs. So everybody 365 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.920 else must cough up and admit their wrongs, and if 366 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.319 they don't, he's going to do it for them. So 367 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.279 he wanted me to reinvestigate the entire benecase and write 368 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:42.240 about it and in proof that they knew, that the 369 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.559 cops knew, and that the prosecutor knew they had the 370 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:47.119 wrong people, but they went ahead with it anyway. And 371 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:50.000 his contention at the time was all the cops fed 372 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:52.960 them information in order for them to know certain details 373 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.160 about the murder, you know, but the cops knew that 374 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:02.519 they were not the right people. So I said, okay, 375 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:05.559 I said, you know, I'll give you that promise. You know, 376 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:07.880 I don't have to I don't have to promise you anything, 377 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.160 but I promise that I'll look into that and I 378 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.359 will write about my findings whatever they are. Be prepared 379 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.720 for what I find. And so thus I looked into it. 380 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:19.359 I began to reinterview most of the people involved and 381 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.039 look at the case, and you know, I came to 382 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:23.720 a conclusion. 383 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:32.200 Yeah, absolutely, Now you talk about other than the Dark 384 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.000 Minds consultation, because that ends, as you write about, in 385 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:39.440 three years and there's not a fourth season. You don't 386 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:41.480 tell them right away that there isn't this fourth season. 387 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:46.359 Tell us why, but what are your other plans to 388 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.960 do with this correspondence? What else will you do with 389 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:51.240 this correspondence? 390 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:54.880 Well, yeah, it was. It was a tight rope for 391 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:00.960 me knowing that. Well, first of all, I should say 392 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:06.079 that the show was so personal to me. The show 393 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.680 was beginning to make strides in cold cases. It was 394 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.759 a one of a kind show. It and actually the show, 395 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.880 my work through the show has created three tasks task 396 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:23.319 forces to reinvestigate some of these serial killer cases. And 397 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:28.400 not only that, but you have twenty something cases that 398 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.440 are reopened that we're just collecting dust. That's good work. 399 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:35.480 And I was it was, I wrote in Dangerous Ground 400 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:37.839 in my book, I write it was like a death 401 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:40.079