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<v Speaker 1>Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my goodness, it's Frank being Frank. Fright. We're the

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<v Speaker 2>only way to be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome

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<v Speaker 2>to being Frank. We're the only way to be, is Frank.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm your host, Franklebono, and i'd like to thank you

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<v Speaker 2>for joining us on what we like to call the

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<v Speaker 2>Intelligent Conversation podcast, where no conversation is out of bounds,

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<v Speaker 2>in all points of view are welcome. You know, we

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<v Speaker 2>record live to tape, and I always give you dates

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<v Speaker 2>so you have some context and relevance. It is the

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<v Speaker 2>twenty first of March and we are still celebrating women's

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<v Speaker 2>history months, so I'm glad you've joined us. I wonder

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<v Speaker 2>how many of my listeners are familiar with the names

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<v Speaker 2>Martha Gellhorn, Lee Miller, and Marie Colvin. I'm sure that

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<v Speaker 2>some of you may have at least heard the names before,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm willing to wager that the great majority have not,

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<v Speaker 2>or their incredible achievements, and that's a shame, because those

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<v Speaker 2>three women were among the greatest journalists this country has

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<v Speaker 2>ever produced, having risked and gave their lives literally and

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<v Speaker 2>figuratively to change the world through their words and images.

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<v Speaker 2>On their shoulders, women continued to stand in the fearless

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<v Speaker 2>pursuit of truth. Yet, despite their accomplishments, another little known

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<v Speaker 2>fact is that most journalists today are women. It's another

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<v Speaker 2>important reason that we continue to celebrate women, particularly those

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<v Speaker 2>in journalism today with my very special guest. She has

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<v Speaker 2>boldly carried on the tradition of great women journalists that

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<v Speaker 2>have come before her, as demonstrated in her roles as

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<v Speaker 2>a leader, producer, reporter, author, teacher and mother. Beth Noble

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<v Speaker 2>had a twenty year career as a journalist before a

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<v Speaker 2>joining Fordham University in two thousand and seven as Assistant

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<v Speaker 2>Professor of Communication and Media Studies. From nineteen ninety nine

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<v Speaker 2>to two thousand and six, she was the Moscow Bureau

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<v Speaker 2>chief for CBS News. In nine years at CBS News,

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<v Speaker 2>she worked as both an on air correspondent as well

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<v Speaker 2>as a producer. She is a recipient of an Emmy

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<v Speaker 2>Award for coverage of the two thousand and two Moscow

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<v Speaker 2>Theater siege, and Edward R. Murrow and Sigma Delta Caya

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<v Speaker 2>Awards for coverage of the two thousand and four Beslan

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<v Speaker 2>School siege. Doctor Noble spent fourteen years living in Moscow,

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<v Speaker 2>where she worked for the Los Angeles Times, the Television

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<v Speaker 2>News Agency, Worldwide Television News, and the production company Feature

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<v Speaker 2>Story before joining CBS News. Earlier in her career, she

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<v Speaker 2>worked for the Columbia Daily Spectator and Governance the Harvard

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<v Speaker 2>Journal of Public Policy. Doctor Noble received a master's and

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<v Speaker 2>doctoral degrees in public policy from Harvard University and her

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<v Speaker 2>bachelor's in political science from bar Arnard College, Columbia University.

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<v Speaker 2>In twenty ten, doctor Noble co authored a guidebook for

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<v Speaker 2>young journalists with CBS News legend Mike Wallace, Heat and

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<v Speaker 2>Light Advice for the next generation of journalists. She also

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<v Speaker 2>wrote a book in twenty eighteen on how watchdoor reporting

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<v Speaker 2>has fared in the Internet era. She also studies the

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<v Speaker 2>effective media on politics in Russia. At Fordham, doctor Noble

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<v Speaker 2>teaches hands on courses in multimedia journalism, journalism history, and

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<v Speaker 2>press politics. She serves as the advisor to the student

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<v Speaker 2>newspaper on Fordham's Bronx campus, The RAM. Outside of Fordham,

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Noble currently serves as a judge for the News

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<v Speaker 2>and Documentary Emmy Awards, as a board member of the

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<v Speaker 2>Overseas Press Club of America and as a trustee of

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<v Speaker 2>the Columbia Daily Spectator. She is also a third degree

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<v Speaker 2>black belt in Taekwondo. I call her the Renaissance Woman.

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<v Speaker 2>A deep breath and my friend and colleague, welcome, doctor Bethson.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you for taking the time. Obviously we're very busy.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks, Frank. It's always great to be with you.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. I love talking with you on this podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>You do such a great job of drilling down into

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<v Speaker 1>people's careers, into issues that we should all be thinking about.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just a total pleasure to be with you.

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<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate that, and I have to ask you.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to give you one more accolade. I always

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<v Speaker 2>called our other colleague, doctor Paul Levinson from Ford and

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<v Speaker 2>the renaissance Man. If he is a renaissance man, you

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<v Speaker 2>must be the renaissance woman. Let's establish that right off

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<v Speaker 2>the bat. Let's move on with our discussion. You know, Beth,

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<v Speaker 2>and you mentioned I like to get to know our

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<v Speaker 2>people beyond their professionalism because it helps to form what

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<v Speaker 2>they are as professionals. So I'd like to ask you,

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<v Speaker 2>did you always dream of becoming a journalist when you

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<v Speaker 2>were when you were a kid growing up, was was

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<v Speaker 2>that foremost in your thinking?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thanks for the question, Frank. You know, I'm a

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<v Speaker 1>New York City kid. I grew up in Queen's. I

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<v Speaker 1>grew up in a middle class family, went to the

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<v Speaker 1>New York City public schools, and I was really lucky

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<v Speaker 1>to go to Stuyvesant High School. This was back in

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<v Speaker 1>the days when normal people kind of got into Stuyvesant,

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<v Speaker 1>who hadn't studied for eight years for the entrance exam

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<v Speaker 1>as they do now, and so it was really it's

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<v Speaker 1>Stuyvesant that I started to get interested in media, although

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<v Speaker 1>apparently I did once when I was about eleven, I

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<v Speaker 1>wrote to the New York Post trying to get a

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<v Speaker 1>job as a sports reporter, and for some reason I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't get it. But at Divesant there was a whole

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<v Speaker 1>scene of both kind of official media like the school

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<v Speaker 1>newspaper and unofficial media. There were all these people just

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<v Speaker 1>sort of self publishing magazines, and so I started working

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<v Speaker 1>on magazines and I just thought this is a really

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<v Speaker 1>cool thing to do, Like there was just something about

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<v Speaker 1>the process of informing people that I just found so

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<v Speaker 1>important and interesting. I did an internship senior year of

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<v Speaker 1>high school at The Villager, which is a local paper.

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<v Speaker 1>It still exists in a West village, and so they

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<v Speaker 1>sent me out to report stories and I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the coolest job in the world, to get

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<v Speaker 1>to get paid to talk to people like I'm good.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I went to college, and you know, it

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<v Speaker 1>was incredibly fortunate to go to Barnard College, which at

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<v Speaker 1>the time was the Women's college of Columbia University. Now

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<v Speaker 1>this is before Columbia was college was co ed, and

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of majored in the Columbia Daily Spectator. It

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<v Speaker 1>was a five day week paper. We had to lay

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<v Speaker 1>it out. They don't lay it out anymore, only once

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<v Speaker 1>a week, and the SPEC's motto was success without college.

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<v Speaker 1>I probably skipped a few too many classes, but I

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<v Speaker 1>really learned how to be a journalist, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>really gave me the fire. Now and as you said

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<v Speaker 1>in your in I serve as one of the alumni

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<v Speaker 1>trustees of the Columbia Spectator, and I'm just in total

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<v Speaker 1>awe of the high quality journalism that those students do.

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<v Speaker 1>I look at the quality of the reporting and the

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<v Speaker 1>multimedia work than they do, and they're you know, doing

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<v Speaker 1>social media, and they're doing videos and they're doing reporting.

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<v Speaker 1>Their work covering the protests at Columbia over the last

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<v Speaker 1>year has been absolutely remarkable. I'm so incredibly proud of

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<v Speaker 1>those students. And then I ended up becoming a professional

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<v Speaker 1>journalist in Russia. After I finished graduate school, I started

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<v Speaker 1>writing about Mikhail Gorbachev, started going to Russia, fell in

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<v Speaker 1>love with a Russian journalist who I eventually married and

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<v Speaker 1>then later divorced. But it was nineteen ninety when I

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<v Speaker 1>started going to Russia and everything was changing. Communism was

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<v Speaker 1>falling apart before my eyes. And so when I decided

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<v Speaker 1>to move there in nineteen ninety two, the only thing

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<v Speaker 1>I knew how to do was be a journalist, and

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<v Speaker 1>I was really lucky to get some really great jobs

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<v Speaker 1>in Moscow and learn the language, ending up with CBS,

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<v Speaker 1>which is where we met, and you know, is still

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<v Speaker 1>a place where I have a relationship. I help with

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<v Speaker 1>their Russia coverage still, and you know, I'm just so

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly grateful to have been able to work as a journalist,

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to travel around the world. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>if I if I am an activist in any way,

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<v Speaker 1>it's that I'm an activist for the truth. Like I

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<v Speaker 1>really believe in the First Amendment. I really believe in

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<v Speaker 1>giving people the information that they need as citizens to

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<v Speaker 1>make decisions about their lives. And that's that's one of

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<v Speaker 1>the things I think we both bring to the classroom

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<v Speaker 1>at FORDOM trying to empower students to dig deep and

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<v Speaker 1>to find the truths and and to share the truths,

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<v Speaker 1>even even when it's not pretty.

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<v Speaker 2>Beats. Did you have in your career an epiphany moment,

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<v Speaker 2>if you will, when it would you really realize I

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<v Speaker 2>can do this, I belong here. Was there one moment

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<v Speaker 2>or a series of something that you can point to

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<v Speaker 2>that says, yeah, this is where I this is where

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<v Speaker 2>I am, this is where I belong.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, that's a good question. I think I

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<v Speaker 1>had a bunch of them along the way. Like the

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<v Speaker 1>first time I got an article into the Columbia Spectator,

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<v Speaker 1>it was like, oh, I can do this. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>When I got a job, I worked for the Los

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<v Speaker 1>Angeles Times. That was my first job in Moscow, and

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<v Speaker 1>that was like, Wow, somebody's hiring me to be a

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<v Speaker 1>you know, work in a foreign bureau. This is incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think maybe like the pinnacle for me was

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and two, CBS sent me on a

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<v Speaker 1>rotation to Cobble, Afghanistan for a month. This was after

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<v Speaker 1>the fighting had ended, and I spent about a month

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<v Speaker 1>in Afghanistan with Elizabeth Palmer, who's a dear friend and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, still a wonderful correspondent now based in the

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<v Speaker 1>CBS B bureau in Moscow. She was the Mosque's she's

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<v Speaker 1>based in London, CBSNE and she was the Moscow correspondent

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<v Speaker 1>for a couple of years. And I remember driving around

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<v Speaker 1>Cobble and particularly driving across the Schmali plane north of

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<v Speaker 1>Cobble and passing these herders living in tents with their goats,

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<v Speaker 1>and I just thought, Wow, this is a moment, What

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<v Speaker 1>an incredible opportunity to go to a place like Afghanistan

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<v Speaker 1>that I would never ever in a million years go

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<v Speaker 1>to such a historic and interesting place, and to get

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<v Speaker 1>to tell stories to Americans, to make them care about

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<v Speaker 1>a place that is so outside of their everyday life

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<v Speaker 1>but has important implications for our country, for national security.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, sometimes I look at my life and I

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<v Speaker 1>kind of want to pinch myself about.

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<v Speaker 2>How it was expressional all the time. How they wind

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<v Speaker 2>up here this is cool, and you do wind up

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<v Speaker 2>pinching yourself and you never forget where you came from,

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<v Speaker 2>at least I don't. I'm sure you don't either, you know, Beth.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we make one to elaborate. I mentioned three

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<v Speaker 2>women in the opening, and we were discussing them a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit before emailer Martha Gelhorn and Marie called it.

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<v Speaker 2>All of them were war correspondents and covered conflict. One

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<v Speaker 2>of them actually killed in action, Marie Colvin, who was

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<v Speaker 2>warned not to go back, and her response was, but

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<v Speaker 2>I have to. So I and the others were not

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily killed in action, but we're in a sense lost

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<v Speaker 2>to the wars they covered, if you will, many similar

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<v Speaker 2>that many soldiers experience with PTSD coming back from war.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, they could appear and they had great careers,

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<v Speaker 2>but they never lose what they've seen. So talk and again,

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<v Speaker 2>you've been in war zones. Talk about some of the challenges,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly unique challenges that women and journalists in that situation

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<v Speaker 2>face that perhaps maybe their male counterpart don't encounter on

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<v Speaker 2>the same level. Can you talk to that? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, Oh my gosh, how much time do we have.

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<v Speaker 1>I remember, you know, so many, so many times where

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<v Speaker 1>reporting in Russia where people kind of looked to me

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<v Speaker 1>with curiosity and maybe a little bit of shock. And

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<v Speaker 1>this is, you know, not like fifty years ago. This

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<v Speaker 1>is more contemporary. You know, those women you mentioned had

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<v Speaker 1>amazing careers. I mean Murray Colvin who was killed in Syria,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, was told like, what you're doing is crazy, dangerous,

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<v Speaker 1>and she did it anyway. I'm not that kind of journalist.

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<v Speaker 1>I admire those kinds of journalists. If there are bullets flying,

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<v Speaker 1>I would like rather be back in my safe space

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<v Speaker 1>than out there. It is one of the reasons I

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<v Speaker 1>have such respect for those frontline journalists. But I can

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<v Speaker 1>think of times where, you know, people looked at me

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<v Speaker 1>in Russia and was like, you're a woman, what are

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<v Speaker 1>you doing here?

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<v Speaker 2>Why?

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<v Speaker 1>Where's where's your husband? Why is he letting you do this.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen ninety seven, I was working for I think

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<v Speaker 1>it was ninety seven, it might have been ninety six.

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<v Speaker 1>I was working for Worldwide Television News and I made

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<v Speaker 1>a trip to Chechenya and was living in Grosny for

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<v Speaker 1>about ten days, and we were living in a house.

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<v Speaker 1>The group of us from WTN and also some of

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<v Speaker 1>our some other television clients with a family in the

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<v Speaker 1>center of Grosny and they kind of had a guest

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<v Speaker 1>house that they gave us. And this family had numerous

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<v Speaker 1>daughters kind of running from you know, twenties down to

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<v Speaker 1>you know, five years old, and these women were fascinated

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<v Speaker 1>by me. And I speak Russian and so they could

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<v Speaker 1>talk to me, and they were like, what do you

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<v Speaker 1>what are you doing? You're a woman? Where's your husband?

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<v Speaker 1>How does he allow you to do this? Do American

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<v Speaker 1>women work? Is this normal? And they weren't being you know,

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<v Speaker 1>mean or anything. They were just incredibly curious to see

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<v Speaker 1>a woman in a very different role than they were

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<v Speaker 1>used to in Chechena. Which is not to say the

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<v Speaker 1>Chechen women and don't work. They absolutely do work. But

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<v Speaker 1>it was kind of like a little mini lesson in

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<v Speaker 1>feminism for these young Chechen women to sort of say, look,

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<v Speaker 1>you know you hopefully you can do whatever you want,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, it's important for people of all kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of different backgrounds to be telling stories.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. Statistic I mentioned that literally the majority of

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<v Speaker 2>journalists today are women. And I did a little research

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<v Speaker 2>and it's just under fifty four percent by the latest survey,

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<v Speaker 2>And I have to be honest, that surprised me, although

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<v Speaker 2>it shouldn't because I've noticed in recent years the tremendous

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<v Speaker 2>increase in female students I have in my class on

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<v Speaker 2>journalism and a multimedia production sometimes where the great majority

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<v Speaker 2>out of twelve or fourteen students, ten or twelve are women.

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<v Speaker 2>So that kinds of does it surprise you at all

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<v Speaker 2>to find so many? And why do you think women,

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<v Speaker 2>despite the difficulties, are still attracted to it as a profession.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, at Fordham, our major in journalism, our department in

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<v Speaker 1>Communication Media Studies is overwhelmingly women, I think maybe sixty

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<v Speaker 1>five sixty eight percent women, and FOREDAM is overwhelmingly women

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<v Speaker 1>students as a university. So I think it's really great

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<v Speaker 1>that more women are going into journalism. When I was

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<v Speaker 1>coming up, for example, at the Columbia Daily Spectator, the

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<v Speaker 1>staff was overwhelmingly male and overwhelmingly white. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think the Spectator had its first editor female

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<v Speaker 1>editor in chief until after I had gone been the editor,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was I believe, about one hundred years into

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<v Speaker 1>its history. Yeah, I think it was a woman in

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<v Speaker 1>the class of nineteen eighty seven. It was the first

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<v Speaker 1>few editor in chief, which is probably about one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and nine years into Spectator's history. You know, everybody brings

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<v Speaker 1>their own perspectives to their work as a journalist, and

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<v Speaker 1>certainly my view of the world has been deeply colored

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<v Speaker 1>by being a woman and also by being a mother.

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<v Speaker 1>In two thousand and four, we were covering the school

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<v Speaker 1>siege in the town of Beslon, where as I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>most listeners will remember, a group of Chechen terrorists took

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<v Speaker 1>an entire school hostage, mostly children and some of their

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<v Speaker 1>parents who were bringing them to school for the first day,

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<v Speaker 1>which has usually a little ceremony, and those people were

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<v Speaker 1>held in a school gym for three days in sweltering heat.

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<v Speaker 1>The gym was leased with bombs that would go off

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<v Speaker 1>if the Russian forces tried to attack. It was awful

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<v Speaker 1>talking about PTSD. I definitely felt the effects of having

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<v Speaker 1>covered that story for many, many weeks and months afterwards.

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<v Speaker 1>But I was covering that story and all I could

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<v Speaker 1>kept thinking about was, Wow, what if my kid were

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<v Speaker 1>in there, who was four years old at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>And I just thought, you know, he's such a chatterbox.

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<v Speaker 1>He would never have been able to shut up and

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<v Speaker 1>sit there for hours and hours in a hot gym

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<v Speaker 1>with no water and no food, and so my empathy

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<v Speaker 1>for the people in that gym was very deeply colored

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<v Speaker 1>by my own experience as a mother. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's really great. At the Spectator when I was there,

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<v Speaker 1>the women, I don't know, we're ten or twenty percent

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<v Speaker 1>of the staff. So again, right now, I look at

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<v Speaker 1>the staff of the Columbia Spectator. It's a majority woman.

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<v Speaker 1>Most of their editors in chief for the last ten

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<v Speaker 1>years have been women. Most sometimes they're all female managing boards,

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<v Speaker 1>you know. And it's good. The more kinds of voices

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<v Speaker 1>and the more kinds of people we can have in

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<v Speaker 1>journalism telling different stories in different ways, the stronger journal

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be overall.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. I want to talk a little bit about

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<v Speaker 2>and you had mentioned it, and I've experienced it also,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's interesting you hear it often discuss amongst first responders,

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<v Speaker 2>military people PTSD, But as journalists, we also are very

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<v Speaker 2>close to extreme tragedy, and you have to deal with that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think when we're working, we don't necessarily think about

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<v Speaker 2>it because the work occupies your mind. It's in the

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<v Speaker 2>quieter moments afterwards. I remember reflecting after nine to eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>having spent two weeks at Ground zero, and then also

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<v Speaker 2>the Sandy Hook Elementary shootings, busy, busy, terrible weather and

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<v Speaker 2>not thinking about it, but afterwards coming to terms with

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<v Speaker 2>what we've just seen and documented. And I guess we

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<v Speaker 2>all have methods of dealing with what is yours. And

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<v Speaker 2>you mentioned how for months you were suffering with PTSD.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you prepare and if you know assignment's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be difficulty, do you mentally prepare yourself? And then

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<v Speaker 2>afterwards what are some of your methods of coping?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think you know it's it's really hard to

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<v Speaker 1>be a journalist sometimes, And one of the things I

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<v Speaker 1>do in my classes at Fordham is to warn the

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<v Speaker 1>students that being a journalist is a bit like maybe

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<v Speaker 1>being in the army, where you know, you get the

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<v Speaker 1>order to fall out and you've got to do it,

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<v Speaker 1>and you sometimes you get on a plane to cover

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<v Speaker 1>a story and you have no idea how long it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to go and what's going to happen, and you

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<v Speaker 1>have to be able to kind of roll with the punches,

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<v Speaker 1>and that you also have to be able to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of compartmentalize a little bit and sort of take your

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<v Speaker 1>own emotions and go, Okay, I have my emotions, I

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<v Speaker 1>have my feelings. I bring you know, I'm not objective

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<v Speaker 1>about certain things in my life, but like I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a journalist, I'm going to kind of put

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<v Speaker 1>on my journalist hat now and then push those feelings

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<v Speaker 1>to the side, and I'll come back to them and

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<v Speaker 1>deal with them. So in in Beslan, you know, it

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<v Speaker 1>was tragic. We would interview people who had lost their

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<v Speaker 1>whole family, and they would cry through the interview, and

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<v Speaker 1>then we would cry through the interview. At points our

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<v Speaker 1>cameraman said, like, I can't even see what I'm shooting anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm crying so much that it's just a big blur.

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<v Speaker 1>But afterwards, I, you know, I had dreams about Beslan

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<v Speaker 1>and about being held hostage, you know, for many, many

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<v Speaker 1>weeks after that event, and so, you know, you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about it, you try to process it. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that I'm very proud of as an alum of

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<v Speaker 1>CBS is that I always found them to be very

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<v Speaker 1>understanding when people were like, Hey, I've just covered a war,

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<v Speaker 1>I've just covered a terrorist act. I might need a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of days off or I, you know, I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to seek some counseling and try to work through this,

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<v Speaker 1>and they've been My experience was that they were extremely

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<v Speaker 1>supportive in this. You know, I've saw, you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of colleagues cover some really horrible things and that's

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<v Speaker 1>just part of the job. And I think you have

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<v Speaker 1>to go into the job knowing that you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>see the worst of humanity, but the upside is that

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<v Speaker 1>you also get to see the best of humanity. Going

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<v Speaker 1>back to Beslan, we were, you know, interviewing these people

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<v Speaker 1>who lost their whole families, and then at the end

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<v Speaker 1>of the interviews, these people were like, Hey, do you

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<v Speaker 1>need a bathroom? Hey are you hungry? Hey can we

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<v Speaker 1>feed you? Do you need a place to stay? Do

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<v Speaker 1>you on our internet Wi fi? You know, what can

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<v Speaker 1>we do for you? And I remember thinking, these people

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<v Speaker 1>have just gone through the worst days of their life,

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<v Speaker 1>and yet they're being so kind to us, Like, what

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<v Speaker 1>does that tell you about the human condition? It tells

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<v Speaker 1>you that even at the worst of times, people can

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<v Speaker 1>be at their very best. And those lessons have definitely

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<v Speaker 1>stayed with me through my career.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Beth, it was a question I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to ask after the break. I think it's more appropriate

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<v Speaker 2>it now, and it's something it's rhetorical, but we can

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it. It's something I call the myth of

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<v Speaker 2>total impartiality, which we as journalists are supposed to go

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<v Speaker 2>in totally objective, but that's not in my mind, and

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<v Speaker 2>I talk about it with my students. Is not entirely realistic.

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<v Speaker 2>And you were mentioning Beslon et cetera, where there's a

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<v Speaker 2>situation where there is good and there is evil and

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<v Speaker 2>it has to be reported as such. I mean, there's

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<v Speaker 2>an internet meme that says something about what journalism is.

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<v Speaker 2>If it's if somebody's asking if it's raining outside, you

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<v Speaker 2>really don't debate it. You put your head out of

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<v Speaker 2>the window, you find out if it's raining or not.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to see your thoughts on that. As I said,

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of it is to approach with objectivity and fairness.

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<v Speaker 2>But at some point, as you dig a story, as

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<v Speaker 2>I said, there are villains and there are heroes, and

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<v Speaker 2>what role does a journalist play in highlighting one over

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<v Speaker 2>the other.

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<v Speaker 1>Your thoughts, Yeah, thanks, Frank, that's a really good and

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<v Speaker 1>important question. And I think a lot of people who

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<v Speaker 1>haven't been journalists or don't think a lot about journalism,

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<v Speaker 1>don't really understand the high aspirations that most journalists have

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<v Speaker 1>for themselves, who are, you know, working in the mainstream media,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, to put their own prejudices aside and just

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<v Speaker 1>focus on what's true and getting to it. So I

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<v Speaker 1>spend a lot of my time covering the war in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 1>No obviously, you know, most people would look at any

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<v Speaker 1>war like that and just say, oh, this is this

405
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<v Speaker 1>is so sad, this is a terrible thing. I hope

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<v Speaker 1>this war ends so fewer innocent people will die. Everybody

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<v Speaker 1>always has some feelings that they bring to a story,

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<v Speaker 1>and so the aspiration is to put those aside and

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<v Speaker 1>focus on the facts, focus on fairness, focus on being balanced.

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<v Speaker 1>And it can be really hard to do that. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>reporting about the Ukraine War, where I do have strong

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<v Speaker 1>personal feelings is challenging, but I always try to be

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<v Speaker 1>fair and accurate in what I say about it, even

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<v Speaker 1>though you know, now the work that I do for

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<v Speaker 1>CBS is really punditry. They'll come to me and be like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>this thing happened, how do we interpret it? What does

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<v Speaker 1>it mean? What do you think? And even in that

418
00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.160
<v Speaker 1>role where I actually can, you know, let my opinions go,

419
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.559
<v Speaker 1>I tend not to. I try to just sort of

420
00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:33.640
<v Speaker 1>add fact and add information to help people interpret it

421
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:39.359
<v Speaker 1>for themselves. So I think it's important to know and

422
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:45.720
<v Speaker 1>remember that journalism is a profession. It has standards, it

423
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:50.119
<v Speaker 1>has practices that are widely adapted, and the standards for

424
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:55.160
<v Speaker 1>journalism transcend the medium. So, for example, the Society of

425
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.799
<v Speaker 1>Professional Journalists has a set of standards that it says

426
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.000
<v Speaker 1>journalisms should act according to, and that's, you know, seeking

427
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.480
<v Speaker 1>the truth above all else, being fair and balanced, being accountable,

428
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.319
<v Speaker 1>being transparent, and that doesn't matter if you're you know,

429
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:13.599
<v Speaker 1>doing your journalism via TikTok videos or your reporting for

430
00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:16.119
<v Speaker 1>the New York Times of CBS. Those are aspirations that

431
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:20.279
<v Speaker 1>we all have. And I think it's it's really important

432
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:25.480
<v Speaker 1>for people to remember that journalists are, you know, almost always,

433
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:30.200
<v Speaker 1>certainly mainstream media journalists are always aspiring to put their

434
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.319
<v Speaker 1>personal feelings aside and just focus on what's actually true.

435
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:37.680
<v Speaker 2>And I'm going to get back to that with the book,

436
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.000
<v Speaker 2>your most recent book, The Watchdog still barks when I

437
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.839
<v Speaker 2>think it's relative but before that, you wrote another book

438
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.960
<v Speaker 2>with the legend, as we mentioned Mike Wallace from sixty Minutes,

439
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:53.519
<v Speaker 2>called Heat and Light, Advice for the Next Generation of

440
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.839
<v Speaker 2>jo Journalists. Tell us about that, how you came to

441
00:25:56.920 --> 00:25:59.599
<v Speaker 2>do it with Mike Wallace, what you hope to accomplish

442
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.000
<v Speaker 2>with it, and where it is now if you would.

443
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thanks, Frank. So if anybody doesn't know, Mike Wallace

444
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:09.680
<v Speaker 1>was one of the founding correspondents of sixty Minutes. He

445
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:14.960
<v Speaker 1>started on the program in nineteen sixty eight and stayed

446
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:20.599
<v Speaker 1>on it until his late eighties. He's the American journalist

447
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:24.079
<v Speaker 1>who made it fashionable and acceptable to ask a hard question.

448
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:28.400
<v Speaker 1>It sounds hard to believe, but back in the fifties

449
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:33.039
<v Speaker 1>journalists were, you know, not didn't want to ask really

450
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:36.519
<v Speaker 1>hard questions and make the people they were interviewing feel uncomfortable.

451
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.680
<v Speaker 1>And Mike was like, the heck with that. And so

452
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.200
<v Speaker 1>we worked together twice. When I was at CBS. He

453
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:47.160
<v Speaker 1>came to interview bars Jeltzon in two thousand and then

454
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:51.400
<v Speaker 1>he came to interview Vladimir Putin in two thousand and five,

455
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.079
<v Speaker 1>and so we got to know each other, and he

456
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.640
<v Speaker 1>had a reputation of being quite the tiger in his

457
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:00.119
<v Speaker 1>early years. By the time I worked with him, he

458
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:01.880
<v Speaker 1>was in his eighties and he was kind of a

459
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:05.000
<v Speaker 1>pussy cat and we got along very well, and so

460
00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:07.359
<v Speaker 1>I had him come to visit Fordom and give a

461
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.000
<v Speaker 1>talk to students, and he was he was so Mike Wallace.

462
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:14.480
<v Speaker 1>He just people started asking him questions and then he

463
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:16.480
<v Speaker 1>I remember he was wearing a lavit le or mic

464
00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:19.119
<v Speaker 1>so he could move around, and he like literally left

465
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:22.000
<v Speaker 1>the place where we were sitting, walked into the audience

466
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:24.960
<v Speaker 1>and started questioning the students about things and having a

467
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.000
<v Speaker 1>conversation with them, and it was so good that I

468
00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:30.920
<v Speaker 1>called him the next day to thank him, and I said,

469
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, you really ought to write a book about

470
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:35.799
<v Speaker 1>how to do journalism, because your view of what it

471
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.119
<v Speaker 1>is is a little bit different than kind of the

472
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.920
<v Speaker 1>classic canon of journalism. And I said, you know, if

473
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:44.480
<v Speaker 1>you want, we could do it together. And much to

474
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:46.920
<v Speaker 1>my surprise and delight, he said, that's a great idea.

475
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.960
<v Speaker 1>Let's do it together. And so I started going to

476
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:54.319
<v Speaker 1>his apartment in New York and I made a list

477
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:57.519
<v Speaker 1>of like the two hundred and fifty most basic questions

478
00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.799
<v Speaker 1>of doing journalism, like what's a story news? How do

479
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:03.119
<v Speaker 1>you know who to interview? How do you know you

480
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.839
<v Speaker 1>haven't forgotten to ask something important? What are your ethics?

481
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:11.759
<v Speaker 1>How do you think about following the law? You walk

482
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:14.480
<v Speaker 1>into an edit room and you've got thirty hours of material,

483
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.680
<v Speaker 1>how do you combit down and make it a story?

484
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.400
<v Speaker 1>And so we just started talking and I ran a

485
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.160
<v Speaker 1>tape and we just talked and talked and talked and

486
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:23.839
<v Speaker 1>talk to talk and then I went out and interviewed

487
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:29.039
<v Speaker 1>about thirty other people to have their impressions of the

488
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.480
<v Speaker 1>in the book as well. And yeah, we had a

489
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.680
<v Speaker 1>great time. And I think other than the fact that

490
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:37.079
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't really cover the internet because it came out

491
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.039
<v Speaker 1>in twenty ten, I think it really the book stands

492
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.839
<v Speaker 1>up in terms of the way it explains the way

493
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:50.279
<v Speaker 1>to do news gathering and the importance of journalism. And yeah,

494
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:53.920
<v Speaker 1>it's a really good book. It's still it's still out there.

495
00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:57.880
<v Speaker 1>I know some people are still using it. And it's

496
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.279
<v Speaker 1>really the book that I wish I had had when

497
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:03.799
<v Speaker 1>I was say, entering college and wanted to go work

498
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:06.400
<v Speaker 1>at the Spectator and really wanted to know what journalism

499
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:07.039
<v Speaker 1>was all about.

500
00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:11.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a perfect segue into your latest book

501
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:15.599
<v Speaker 2>that you mentioned how reporting has fared in the Internet era,

502
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:18.799
<v Speaker 2>The Watchdog Still Bark. So that's kind of the follow

503
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:21.680
<v Speaker 2>up because we know the Internet has changed everything, and

504
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.400
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned, you know, being a journalist is more than

505
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:28.039
<v Speaker 2>just a title, it's training, it's ethics. All that comes

506
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:32.759
<v Speaker 2>together so that people at least should trust that you've

507
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:37.640
<v Speaker 2>done your due diligence, your research, etc. The Internet some

508
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.400
<v Speaker 2>people still practice that, but because it's relatively anonymous, it's

509
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:46.680
<v Speaker 2>changed anything everything. But you wrote, you literally wrote the book.

510
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.319
<v Speaker 2>So how do you feel the Internet has changed news

511
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:54.279
<v Speaker 2>gathering in journalism for the better, for the worst or

512
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:56.039
<v Speaker 2>what are your feelings?

513
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, good question. So the book that I wrote, The

514
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.160
<v Speaker 1>The Watchdog Still Barks, was looking at newspapers, nine newspapers

515
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:06.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of you know, big ones, medium sized, and small

516
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:10.440
<v Speaker 1>ones to sort of say how much are they able

517
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.960
<v Speaker 1>to dig into the watchdog role of the government and

518
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.960
<v Speaker 1>big business given that their staffs are getting smaller and

519
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:19.519
<v Speaker 1>smaller and smaller. And so I thought the book was

520
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:22.519
<v Speaker 1>going to be documenting the fact that watchdog reporting was

521
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.400
<v Speaker 1>going away, and much to my surprise when I actually

522
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:28.880
<v Speaker 1>started looking at the data, it actually showed that a

523
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:33.319
<v Speaker 1>lot of the newspapers had expanded their watchdog reporting. A

524
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:39.400
<v Speaker 1>good example is the Atlanta Journal Constitution, which decided to

525
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:43.039
<v Speaker 1>put some kind of accountability story on its front page

526
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:47.480
<v Speaker 1>every single day rather than to make sure that it

527
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:52.039
<v Speaker 1>was acting as a vibrant watchdog over the government. And

528
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.000
<v Speaker 1>so I then interviewed editors at all of the papers

529
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.680
<v Speaker 1>I studied, and including the Washington Post and the New

530
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:05.079
<v Speaker 1>York Times and papers in places like Idaho and Florida

531
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:08.960
<v Speaker 1>and upstate New York, and all the editors said the

532
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:13.119
<v Speaker 1>same thing to me, which is, we need to do

533
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:16.039
<v Speaker 1>watchdog journalism because if we don't do it, no one's

534
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.559
<v Speaker 1>going to do it. And it's the thing that our

535
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:23.480
<v Speaker 1>readers actually really feel is worth paying for. So I

536
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:27.519
<v Speaker 1>think if I extend my research only went through twenty eleven,

537
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:30.000
<v Speaker 1>but I think if I did it now, I might

538
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:35.039
<v Speaker 1>find very different results than I did then. And so

539
00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:37.839
<v Speaker 1>one of the things that I'm working on now is

540
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:44.599
<v Speaker 1>actually looking at these independent journalists. I came to be

541
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:48.599
<v Speaker 1>interested in this through a student who's currently writing her

542
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:54.240
<v Speaker 1>bachelor's thesis at FORDAM about these new independent journalists who

543
00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:59.119
<v Speaker 1>do journalism on platforms like TikTok and YouTube. So one

544
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:01.359
<v Speaker 1>really good example of this is a guy named Johnny

545
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Harris who's a journalist. He has a good background, he

546
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:11.519
<v Speaker 1>worked at all kinds of different organizations and now he's

547
00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:14.519
<v Speaker 1>on his own and so he'll make like a twenty

548
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:19.000
<v Speaker 1>minute video about like who is Vladimir Putin? And for

549
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:21.480
<v Speaker 1>some of his videos, he's going out into the field

550
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:24.680
<v Speaker 1>and interviewing people and doing kind of very classic journalism.

551
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.759
<v Speaker 1>And sometimes he's not actually interviewing anyone, he's just curating pictures,

552
00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:33.640
<v Speaker 1>curating information and putting it into a package that's very

553
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.279
<v Speaker 1>slick looking and very informative. But isn't you know, the

554
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:39.599
<v Speaker 1>kind of typical journalism that you and I would have

555
00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:42.920
<v Speaker 1>done at CBS. And he is something like six million

556
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:48.559
<v Speaker 1>followers on YouTube, so there's definitely marketing. Yeah, there's been

557
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:51.559
<v Speaker 1>definitely an audience for this. But the question is, well, like,

558
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.920
<v Speaker 1>is this journalism? Where does content begin and where does

559
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.559
<v Speaker 1>journalism end? And what are the ethics that he's subject to?

560
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Is he's still subject to the same standards and practices

561
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:07.319
<v Speaker 1>as somebody working for a mainstream news organization. So this

562
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.000
<v Speaker 1>is one of the things that I'm working on now

563
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:13.839
<v Speaker 1>and thinking about because I think you could really disagree

564
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.279
<v Speaker 1>about the extent to which some of what these people

565
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:19.279
<v Speaker 1>are doing as journalism, and then you could look at

566
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.839
<v Speaker 1>others and look at what they're doing, these independent journalists,

567
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:25.039
<v Speaker 1>and be like, that's still classic journalism, where the reporters

568
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:26.960
<v Speaker 1>going out and interviewing people and such.

569
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Another thing you're working on is you're studying the influence

570
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:35.319
<v Speaker 2>of the Internet and social media on politics in Russia. Certainly,

571
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:38.400
<v Speaker 2>very very timely, tell us, tell us more. What are

572
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:41.039
<v Speaker 2>you trying to show and accomplish with that study?

573
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thanks, rank So I wrote an article maybe two

574
00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:49.079
<v Speaker 1>years ago about No, it had to be more than that.

575
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:50.839
<v Speaker 1>It was like three years ago because it was before

576
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.680
<v Speaker 1>the Ukraine War. I wrote a journal article about a

577
00:33:54.759 --> 00:34:00.119
<v Speaker 1>cool Russian television show called Big Game Alshaya Igra, and

578
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.960
<v Speaker 1>the idea of this political talk show was to have

579
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.880
<v Speaker 1>the American and Russian views contrasted. And so there was

580
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:14.000
<v Speaker 1>an American in quote Mark's host, an ethnic you know,

581
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:18.599
<v Speaker 1>a Russian emigrate to America named Dimitri Simes, who's you know,

582
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:21.119
<v Speaker 1>a very well known author. He was an advisor to

583
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Richard Nixon. He headed the Nixon Center for many years

584
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:27.760
<v Speaker 1>and then he was kind of the American host, and

585
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.840
<v Speaker 1>then there was a Russian host as well, a parliamentarian,

586
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.639
<v Speaker 1>and so the idea of the show was America thinks

587
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:39.480
<v Speaker 1>this and Russia thinks this. And so I'm hoping now

588
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:43.360
<v Speaker 1>to go back and study this show after the start

589
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:48.960
<v Speaker 1>of the Ukraine War and show as an example how

590
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:54.320
<v Speaker 1>Russian state propaganda to sell this war to the Russian

591
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.840
<v Speaker 1>people is reflected in this one show. And so they

592
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:03.079
<v Speaker 1>were definitely speaking a lot about Ukraine in the shows

593
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:09.480
<v Speaker 1>that I studied. But now Russian television has become even

594
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:13.440
<v Speaker 1>more propagandas that it was three or five years ago.

595
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:18.559
<v Speaker 1>My my, I do sometimes watch Russian TV and it's

596
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.480
<v Speaker 1>they have a lot of political talk shows, a lot

597
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:24.719
<v Speaker 1>of them, a lot, a lot, a lot, and people

598
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:28.199
<v Speaker 1>on them are just, you know, going on tirades against

599
00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:31.519
<v Speaker 1>America and against the West all the time. So I

600
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:34.960
<v Speaker 1>think this one show is an interesting microcosm, and I

601
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:37.360
<v Speaker 1>have a feeling it's not really showing the American point

602
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.719
<v Speaker 1>of view anymore. I think it's mostly just all the

603
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:42.320
<v Speaker 1>Russian point of view. But we'll see as I do

604
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:43.039
<v Speaker 1>more research.

605
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Some people might call that Fox News in the United

606
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:51.760
<v Speaker 2>States here in terms of very pointed, very pointed political

607
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:55.440
<v Speaker 2>point of view, you know, and it's a good segue, Beth.

608
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:57.280
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna take a little break, but when we come back,

609
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:01.079
<v Speaker 2>it's perfect timing to talk a little bit about what

610
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:04.480
<v Speaker 2>really can only be qualified as an assolved by the

611
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.639
<v Speaker 2>Trump administration on the First Amendment. We've seen them attack CBS,

612
00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:12.320
<v Speaker 2>the AP, Reuters and so on and so forth, and

613
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:16.679
<v Speaker 2>we can see it where in my mind it's slowly

614
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:19.280
<v Speaker 2>being turned that the administration wants to see in his

615
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:23.440
<v Speaker 2>own personal propaganda machine, very similar to what's happening in Russia.

616
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:25.159
<v Speaker 2>I think we need to discuss that a little bit

617
00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:26.840
<v Speaker 2>when we come back. I also want to talk a

618
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:29.559
<v Speaker 2>little bit about your martial arts and let people know

619
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:34.639
<v Speaker 2>you into taekwondos when I said the Renaissance woman, what's

620
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:37.639
<v Speaker 2>in kidding? Beth has been great so far, my very

621
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:41.880
<v Speaker 2>special guest, doctor Beth Noble, an expert in all things media.

622
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:45.679
<v Speaker 2>Our background is so broad. We'll leave it at that.

623
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:48.880
<v Speaker 2>We have so much more to discuss here on being Frank,

624
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:52.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm your host, Frank Lebono. There'll be more intelligent conversation

625
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:55.920
<v Speaker 2>coming up right after these brief commercial messages. Please don't

626
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:57.159
<v Speaker 2>go anywhere yet.

627
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:13.639
<v Speaker 3>Hudson River Radio dot com, Hudson River Radio dot com.

628
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:20.760
<v Speaker 1>This is Hudson River Radio dot com.

629
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 3>This is Hudson River Radio dot com.

630
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:32.960
<v Speaker 1>This is Hudson River Radio dot com.

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00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:37.679
<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks

632
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:40.559
<v Speaker 2>for sticking with us. I'm your host, Frank Robono. Of

633
00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:44.079
<v Speaker 2>course our engineer as always as the mailman, mister Neil Richter.

634
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.320
<v Speaker 2>We'll be back with our special guest, doctor Beth Noble

635
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:50.039
<v Speaker 2>in just a few seconds. I just want to remind

636
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:52.320
<v Speaker 2>you that we bring our audience a fresh topic just

637
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:56.320
<v Speaker 2>about every week, and we stream from Hudson River Radio,

638
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:59.960
<v Speaker 2>which is located in beautiful and historic Stony Point, New York.

639
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.599
<v Speaker 2>But you can also catch Being Frank anywhere you get

640
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:08.000
<v Speaker 2>your favorite podcasts, And because every Being Frank is archived,

641
00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.719
<v Speaker 2>you can listen to any of our programs just about

642
00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:13.519
<v Speaker 2>any time you like. Find a link to Being Frank

643
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:16.960
<v Speaker 2>on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at our

644
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:21.000
<v Speaker 2>website Hudson Riverradio dot com. Just click on the icon

645
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:26.159
<v Speaker 2>and you're there. Okay, let's continue our conversation with Beth Nobles,

646
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:30.159
<v Speaker 2>talking a lot about journalism. What it means a free press, etc.

647
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Best incredible career, and it brings us to a very

648
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:38.400
<v Speaker 2>important topic. And that's what I see as an assault

649
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:42.519
<v Speaker 2>on the First Amendment and the ramifications we've seen the

650
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 2>current administration sue CBS News, ban the AP from the

651
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:54.199
<v Speaker 2>White House, etc. So there are moves in place at

652
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:56.400
<v Speaker 2>least it seems to me to be able to control

653
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:59.639
<v Speaker 2>the free press. And it's something that in my mind,

654
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:02.599
<v Speaker 2>we can have. But let's talk to a person who's

655
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:05.599
<v Speaker 2>more eminently qualified than I am. Best noble, what are

656
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:06.519
<v Speaker 2>your feelings?

657
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:09.199
<v Speaker 1>Oh boy, how much time do we have, Frank, So

658
00:39:09.239 --> 00:39:09.880
<v Speaker 1>we have an hour.

659
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:12.800
<v Speaker 2>As much time as we need to talk about this

660
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:14.239
<v Speaker 2>very important topic.

661
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:21.239
<v Speaker 1>Please, it's this is a very concerning time for the

662
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:24.519
<v Speaker 1>media and for the press. You know, I spent fourteen

663
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:27.119
<v Speaker 1>years living in Russia, and one of the things that

664
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:30.920
<v Speaker 1>I came away with from that time is that for

665
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:34.639
<v Speaker 1>a society to really flourish, there has to be rule

666
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.400
<v Speaker 1>of law. One of the things that you can look

667
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:42.119
<v Speaker 1>at Vladimir Putin's Russia having done is that there really

668
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:44.760
<v Speaker 1>is not rule of law there. For example, if you're

669
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.239
<v Speaker 1>accused of a crime, there's no reason to believe that

670
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:51.639
<v Speaker 1>you would get a fair trial because the judiciary branch

671
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:54.079
<v Speaker 1>is under the control of the president, and in fact,

672
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:59.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, their rates of finding people guilty are like

673
00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:03.000
<v Speaker 1>in the high nineties. It almost doesn't matter whether there's

674
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:06.639
<v Speaker 1>proof or not. And so another thing that I've picked

675
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:11.960
<v Speaker 1>up from living in Russia is that it's absolutely essential

676
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:15.960
<v Speaker 1>to a democracy to have a free and vibrant press.

677
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Our founding fathers may not have gotten everything right. I'm

678
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.239
<v Speaker 1>not sure I love the Electoral College, for example, but

679
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:28.400
<v Speaker 1>I do think they were very right in making sure

680
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:31.719
<v Speaker 1>that there was a First Amendment in place to protect

681
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.559
<v Speaker 1>the media, to protect people's rights to have free speech,

682
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:43.360
<v Speaker 1>to have the right of free assembly. And so it's concerning,

683
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:48.480
<v Speaker 1>I think for most journalists today to see free speech

684
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:54.480
<v Speaker 1>under attack. It's very troubling for professors to see free

685
00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:58.440
<v Speaker 1>speech under attack. I think I'm probably a little bit

686
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.760
<v Speaker 1>more absolutist about the free about the right to free

687
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:06.039
<v Speaker 1>speech then a lot of people are. I really have

688
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:10.679
<v Speaker 1>no problem with most people saying whatever it is they want,

689
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.320
<v Speaker 1>because that's the American way. And I'll just share that.

690
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.199
<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I've been doing as the

691
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:20.119
<v Speaker 1>advisor to the newspaper at Foredam is that I've been

692
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:25.239
<v Speaker 1>working pretty closely on opinion pieces with a student who's very,

693
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:32.320
<v Speaker 1>very conservative, and you know very he's working with the

694
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:36.960
<v Speaker 1>College Republicans at FOREDAM. And when I started working with

695
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.880
<v Speaker 1>him to improve his writing, I said to him, you know,

696
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:43.840
<v Speaker 1>journalists don't come to me as Democrats or Republicans. Journalists

697
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:46.880
<v Speaker 1>come to me as journalists. And I may not agree

698
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:50.320
<v Speaker 1>with a point that you're making in your piece, but

699
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:52.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to help you do the best job I

700
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:56.239
<v Speaker 1>can of expressing your point of view clearly, so that

701
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.360
<v Speaker 1>maybe you will win some people over your point of view,

702
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:03.280
<v Speaker 1>or at least you will do a good job of

703
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.960
<v Speaker 1>expressing the point of view that you have on politics.

704
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:09.480
<v Speaker 1>And you know, some of my friends that I've shared

705
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:11.239
<v Speaker 1>this with are like, so, wait a minute, You're like

706
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:15.320
<v Speaker 1>helping a student write a piece about a point of

707
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.920
<v Speaker 1>view that you totally disagree with. And I was like, absolutely,

708
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.199
<v Speaker 1>That's exactly what I'm doing, because that's the American way.

709
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:25.440
<v Speaker 1>The American way is to be able to discuss things,

710
00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:30.559
<v Speaker 1>to advocate for things, and you know, inside for them,

711
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:35.280
<v Speaker 1>I'll just share that people are concerned about their rights

712
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:39.920
<v Speaker 1>to teach in the classroom and I don't think anybody

713
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.159
<v Speaker 1>really knows what's coming down the pike next. So I

714
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:47.079
<v Speaker 1>think that's made journalists very worried. I think it's made

715
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:51.559
<v Speaker 1>professors very worried. You know, if I'm an advocate for anything,

716
00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.320
<v Speaker 1>as I said earlier, I'm an advocate for the truth.

717
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:58.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, that's really what society needs is for the

718
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.079
<v Speaker 1>press to be free. And let's be clear, all modern

719
00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:05.760
<v Speaker 1>presidents try to cultivate the press, good press coverage, and

720
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:10.000
<v Speaker 1>control the media. You know, whether that's Franklin Roosevelt having

721
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:13.639
<v Speaker 1>a fireside chat, or whether it's someone like Ronald Reagan

722
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:18.840
<v Speaker 1>who had a very sophisticated team putting together his media strategies.

723
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:21.920
<v Speaker 1>If you wanted Ronald Reagan to do an event, you

724
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.480
<v Speaker 1>had to explain not only why it was worth doing,

725
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.559
<v Speaker 1>but what the image on the evening news would be,

726
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:30.679
<v Speaker 1>what the photo on the front page of a newspaper

727
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:34.320
<v Speaker 1>would be, and what the headline would say. So I

728
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.840
<v Speaker 1>think presidents have been involved in controlling the media for

729
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:40.320
<v Speaker 1>a long long time, maybe as long as there's been media,

730
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:43.480
<v Speaker 1>but certainly what we're seeing today with things like the

731
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Associated Press being punished for not wanting to call the

732
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:53.679
<v Speaker 1>golf the golf of America. I think that is new,

733
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:59.239
<v Speaker 1>and I think it's it's hard for journalists to know

734
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.119
<v Speaker 1>the right way to try to combat that so that

735
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.559
<v Speaker 1>they can do their job well. And certainly for professors.

736
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:09.920
<v Speaker 1>I feel like a lot of my colleagues are just

737
00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:16.960
<v Speaker 1>waiting and seeing what happens, and so it's a it's

738
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:21.840
<v Speaker 1>a very worrisome time. And in the long run, I think,

739
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:25.599
<v Speaker 1>you know what's what's best for society. You know, my

740
00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:28.239
<v Speaker 1>tradition is that what's best for society is a is

741
00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.760
<v Speaker 1>a vibrant press, press and vibrant free speech. But I

742
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.760
<v Speaker 1>understand that it can be very hard to be the

743
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:37.159
<v Speaker 1>subject of free speech that is going against you.

744
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:42.519
<v Speaker 2>Great segue, if I might want one last question relative

745
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:45.039
<v Speaker 2>to that, And I think you're in a unique position

746
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:49.119
<v Speaker 2>because of your your credentials and your intimate connection with Columbia.

747
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:52.719
<v Speaker 2>What's going on there with the student demonstrations and the

748
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:57.079
<v Speaker 2>uh the student who has been arrested H and is

749
00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:02.559
<v Speaker 2>being deported H for le reading what the administration claims

750
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:07.960
<v Speaker 2>are anti Semitic protests through a Columbia and you get

751
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:09.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.

752
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:12.599
<v Speaker 2>Again with the idea of free speech. And I know

753
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.440
<v Speaker 2>your feeling is very similar to doctor Paul Evanson's, who's

754
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:18.880
<v Speaker 2>been a regular guest, where you know, almost unless it

755
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:23.679
<v Speaker 2>absolutely incites violence, direct violence, it goes. You don't have

756
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:26.400
<v Speaker 2>to like it. That's the point. But enough about what

757
00:45:26.440 --> 00:45:28.800
<v Speaker 2>my feelings are towards it. What are yours? It's a

758
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:33.760
<v Speaker 2>very delicate balance there, Beth. Where do you see it? Yeah?

759
00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean I sort of come down where you and

760
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:41.119
<v Speaker 1>my esteemed and wonderful colleague Paul Levinson come down. Like

761
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.159
<v Speaker 1>I think it's important for us to, you know, have

762
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:49.960
<v Speaker 1>some speech that's shocking or that's maybe a little bit inflammatory,

763
00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:57.119
<v Speaker 1>because that's really the tradition that allows for the information

764
00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:01.679
<v Speaker 1>to flow that society needs to hold off authoritarianism. So,

765
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:05.239
<v Speaker 1>like I said, my personal barometer for free speech is

766
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.079
<v Speaker 1>set very very high. You know, I have not seen

767
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:12.800
<v Speaker 1>in what I've read, which obviously isn't any everything, that

768
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:17.920
<v Speaker 1>this student at Columbia who was detained, you know, cross

769
00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:21.960
<v Speaker 1>that threshold. He seems to be you know, certainly Palestinian

770
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.280
<v Speaker 1>pro Palestinian. But you know, he didn't, he didn't get

771
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:28.519
<v Speaker 1>over my personal bar for hate speech. I know some

772
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.280
<v Speaker 1>people listening to this may may disagree, but I'll just

773
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:34.880
<v Speaker 1>say more generally that Colombia is in a very difficult

774
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:40.519
<v Speaker 1>situation right now. And as we're talking, there are apparently

775
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:43.920
<v Speaker 1>negotiations going on between the Columbia administration and the Trump

776
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:48.400
<v Speaker 1>administration about sort of things that they the Trump administration

777
00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:51.480
<v Speaker 1>wants Columbia to do in order to get its federal

778
00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:54.480
<v Speaker 1>grants restored. And one of the things that the Trump

779
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:57.639
<v Speaker 1>administration is trying to do is to push for a

780
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:00.360
<v Speaker 1>change in leadership and the way that it's sort of

781
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:04.679
<v Speaker 1>Middle Eastern Studies department is run. And I can't remember

782
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.880
<v Speaker 1>another time that I've ever heard of a government getting

783
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:13.760
<v Speaker 1>into the academic work of a university. And so I,

784
00:47:14.199 --> 00:47:16.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, am in a lot of groups of professors

785
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and there's a lot of discussion right now about this.

786
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:25.360
<v Speaker 1>There are professors at Columbia who have signed letters and

787
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:30.800
<v Speaker 1>petitions saying, you know, this is not allowed. You cannot

788
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.400
<v Speaker 1>allow a government to dictate what we're going to do

789
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:37.519
<v Speaker 1>in the classroom. And I think if that happens, there

790
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:41.480
<v Speaker 1>might be people who leave Columbia, who retire, who try

791
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:45.079
<v Speaker 1>to start moving to other universities. Colombia is, you know,

792
00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:50.039
<v Speaker 1>a place that formed me as an undergraduate, a place

793
00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:52.599
<v Speaker 1>that I still have ties to through the Columbia Spectator.

794
00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:56.639
<v Speaker 1>But I am a professor and so I deeply understand

795
00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:59.719
<v Speaker 1>where their faculty is coming from. That we've had academic

796
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:03.800
<v Speaker 1>freedom to teach students as we want, and if I

797
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:08.039
<v Speaker 1>didn't have that myself, I don't think I could really

798
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:11.800
<v Speaker 1>teach journalism the way that I think it should be taught.

799
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:14.679
<v Speaker 1>I might be worried about saying the wrong thing, and

800
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:16.840
<v Speaker 1>so I think in the long run, it's the students

801
00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:20.920
<v Speaker 1>who would suffer if freedom of speech in the classroom

802
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:25.000
<v Speaker 1>is impinged upon by by any administration, Republican or Democrat.

803
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:28.039
<v Speaker 1>It's just not to me. It's not the right thing

804
00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:30.599
<v Speaker 1>to do. We want people to be able to speak

805
00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.880
<v Speaker 1>freely in classrooms. That's why you know, cancel culture is

806
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.559
<v Speaker 1>also not appealing to me. I don't want any of

807
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:39.559
<v Speaker 1>my students to feel that they can't say what's on

808
00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:40.480
<v Speaker 1>their minds.

809
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I hear it. I wouldn't teach under those circumstances

810
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:48.480
<v Speaker 2>that I wasn't able to speak my mind. And of

811
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:50.960
<v Speaker 2>course certain things are appropriate, certain things are and even

812
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.280
<v Speaker 2>politically in the classroom, but we'll leave that up to

813
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:57.800
<v Speaker 2>each individual. Professor. One of the things I wanted to

814
00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:02.119
<v Speaker 2>talk about you had had with you not actively involved,

815
00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:05.159
<v Speaker 2>but you still acknowledge the importance of the Sperber Award

816
00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:08.800
<v Speaker 2>at Fordham, which acknowledges a book by a journalist of

817
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.079
<v Speaker 2>journalism and outstanding one every year. Tell us a little

818
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:14.679
<v Speaker 2>bit about the prize, where it came from, and why

819
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:15.440
<v Speaker 2>it's important.

820
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so thanks for that. I'm still a juror on

821
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:22.519
<v Speaker 1>the on the Sperber Prize. The prize has been given.

822
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.199
<v Speaker 1>It's actually the twenty fifth anniversary, so yay, we'll be

823
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:29.760
<v Speaker 1>celebrating in November. You're all, you're all invited. The Sperber

824
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:34.599
<v Speaker 1>Prize is an award that's given by Fordham every year

825
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:39.920
<v Speaker 1>to the author of a memoir, biography or autobiography about

826
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:44.039
<v Speaker 1>a journalist or media figure, and it was endowed by

827
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:47.039
<v Speaker 1>the family of a writer named Anne Sperber Am. She

828
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:51.480
<v Speaker 1>wrote under A. M. Sperber, who wrote the biography of

829
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:55.360
<v Speaker 1>Edward R. Mureau, the great CBS journalist and kind of

830
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:59.119
<v Speaker 1>the father of modern broadcast journalism, and worked on the

831
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:02.119
<v Speaker 1>biography of Mura for something like ten years. The amount

832
00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:03.960
<v Speaker 1>of research that she did in the number of people

833
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:08.000
<v Speaker 1>she interviewed is just it's just mind boggling. It's an amazing,

834
00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:11.039
<v Speaker 1>amazing book. And she passed away very very early in

835
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:14.280
<v Speaker 1>her family in doubt this prize, and so it's kind

836
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:18.199
<v Speaker 1>of like a celebration of great journalism. There have been

837
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:21.480
<v Speaker 1>some you know, wonderful writers, you know, some a list

838
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:25.920
<v Speaker 1>names who have won the prize, and you know, it's

839
00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:30.440
<v Speaker 1>it's really a pleasure to have an excuse, you know,

840
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:34.599
<v Speaker 1>to read read these books. One book I've been reading

841
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:38.280
<v Speaker 1>is a friend's book that will be out in April.

842
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:42.639
<v Speaker 1>Jill Dharty, the former bureau chief for CNN, has a

843
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:45.840
<v Speaker 1>memoir and you know, probably will consider her book for

844
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:48.519
<v Speaker 1>next year's prize because it's we're now reading the books

845
00:50:48.519 --> 00:50:50.199
<v Speaker 1>that came out in twenty twenty four. This is twenty

846
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:53.360
<v Speaker 1>twenty five book. But they're amazing books by amazing authors.

847
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:57.079
<v Speaker 1>And sometimes it's people that I know, and sometimes it's

848
00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:01.159
<v Speaker 1>journalists that I never really knew a lot about and

849
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:04.480
<v Speaker 1>have learned about. So it's just another way that we

850
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:07.920
<v Speaker 1>at Fordham are doing what we can to help keep

851
00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:12.159
<v Speaker 1>journalism in the public eye and keep it vibrant.

852
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Now I call you the Renaissance Woman, and I mean

853
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:21.039
<v Speaker 2>it because of all your academic skills, but you will

854
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:25.239
<v Speaker 2>also hold a third dan am I saying it correctly

855
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:30.480
<v Speaker 2>in tayko. Since I don't have to hate, you'll forget me.

856
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.880
<v Speaker 2>But please tell us about how you got involved in taekwondo.

857
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Is important to you.

858
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know it. Thanks for asking. It's kind of

859
00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:42.280
<v Speaker 1>a crazy story. I have a son who's now twenty four,

860
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:45.000
<v Speaker 1>but when he was little, he started doing taekwondo in

861
00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:48.119
<v Speaker 1>a school called Fierce Dragon Martial Arts in our neighborhood

862
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:51.079
<v Speaker 1>in Queens, New York, and they had a free month

863
00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:53.639
<v Speaker 1>for parents, and he was like, hey, Mom, why did

864
00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:56.760
<v Speaker 1>you come to class instead of sitting on the side

865
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:58.960
<v Speaker 1>and watching me? You can try it? And I was like,

866
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:03.920
<v Speaker 1>what are you me? And so he's like, no, no, no, Mom,

867
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:06.480
<v Speaker 1>try and try it. So I did, and by the

868
00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:09.639
<v Speaker 1>end of that free month, I was totally hooked and

869
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.280
<v Speaker 1>I've been doing it ever since. That was thirteen years ago,

870
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.599
<v Speaker 1>and so my son and I were the first mom

871
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:18.679
<v Speaker 1>son pair to make first and then second degree black

872
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:22.679
<v Speaker 1>belt together, which was really so special for me. And

873
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.079
<v Speaker 1>then my son went off to college and I kept going.

874
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:29.599
<v Speaker 1>So in May, I believe I'll be testing for my

875
00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:32.480
<v Speaker 1>fourth degree black belt, which is kind of cool because

876
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:35.400
<v Speaker 1>it's the first rank of mastery, so everyone at the

877
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.639
<v Speaker 1>school will have to call me Master Noble, and I'll

878
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:41.280
<v Speaker 1>also be the first woman at the school to reach master.

879
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:46.239
<v Speaker 1>So I think like people don't understand martial arts that

880
00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:49.320
<v Speaker 1>they think it's about hurting people and punching. It's not.

881
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:54.679
<v Speaker 1>It's about self confidence, it's about perseverance, it's about discipline,

882
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:59.719
<v Speaker 1>it's about respect. It's an incredible sport for young people.

883
00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:02.920
<v Speaker 1>It's a great sport for young girls. There are you know,

884
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:06.400
<v Speaker 1>we are schools has I think close to fifty to

885
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:09.360
<v Speaker 1>fifty in terms of girls and boys in there, and

886
00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:15.199
<v Speaker 1>it really helps young women gain confidence and gain perseverance

887
00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:18.039
<v Speaker 1>because you don't get a belt like just oh I

888
00:53:18.039 --> 00:53:19.760
<v Speaker 1>want it, I hear it is No, you got to

889
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:23.800
<v Speaker 1>work and you got to build up to it. So

890
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:27.719
<v Speaker 1>I you know, I think it's in a really appropriate

891
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.719
<v Speaker 1>time if we're talking about women's history and women's empowerment

892
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:34.840
<v Speaker 1>that some of your listeners like check it out, like

893
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:36.519
<v Speaker 1>if you have a child, or if you are a

894
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:40.639
<v Speaker 1>woman and you're looking for something to do for your health,

895
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:43.960
<v Speaker 1>like check out a local martial arts class. It's it's

896
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.559
<v Speaker 1>really great exercise. And the other thing is that when

897
00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:50.320
<v Speaker 1>you're in a martial arts class, you can't think about

898
00:53:50.360 --> 00:53:53.400
<v Speaker 1>anything else. You have to be there and be present

899
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:56.320
<v Speaker 1>and pay attention. And for me, my, you know, my

900
00:53:56.480 --> 00:54:00.199
<v Speaker 1>job is so busy that I really love having an

901
00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:03.159
<v Speaker 1>hour or two hours on nights and weekends where I'm

902
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:05.559
<v Speaker 1>not thinking about anything. I'm not thinking about the news.

903
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:08.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm just thinking about, Okay, someone's coming at me with

904
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:11.599
<v Speaker 1>a punch. What I do to protect myself.

905
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:15.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, now I have to answer your list

906
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:22.800
<v Speaker 2>of already impressive titles of deck doctor, best, noble Master, best.

907
00:54:21.400 --> 00:54:23.199
<v Speaker 1>Thanks, but not yet put.

908
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:25.920
<v Speaker 2>The I'm sure you whole accomplish it, as you've done

909
00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:28.840
<v Speaker 2>everything else. Beth. I really want to thank you so much.

910
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:30.960
<v Speaker 2>You're such a dear friend, and I knew you took

911
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:33.280
<v Speaker 2>time out of a very busy schedule to be with

912
00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:36.079
<v Speaker 2>us here at being Frank. I really appreciate it.

913
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Frank, it's thank you so much for having me.

914
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:41.519
<v Speaker 1>I I love coming on your show. You always ask

915
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:45.760
<v Speaker 1>such thoughtful and interesting questions, and you know, I think

916
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:50.039
<v Speaker 1>we both share so many passions about what it is

917
00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:54.679
<v Speaker 1>we do now as journalists and as professors, and I

918
00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:58.559
<v Speaker 1>know for sure that because I hear it from them,

919
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:02.280
<v Speaker 1>that your students are super lucky to be in a

920
00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:04.719
<v Speaker 1>classroom with you and to be able to soak up

921
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:07.840
<v Speaker 1>so much of your understanding and knowledge about journalism. So

922
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:10.079
<v Speaker 1>thanks for all you do for Fordham students and as

923
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:11.960
<v Speaker 1>well as for your audience on the podcast.

924
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:14.199
<v Speaker 2>And I have to get just one plug in from

925
00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:18.519
<v Speaker 2>my students to you. Often here today in our cancel culture, well,

926
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:21.639
<v Speaker 2>students are lazy and this that, and not our students.

927
00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.760
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't say that at all. Very proud of our kids,

928
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.920
<v Speaker 2>and I guess old enough actually call them kids. They're

929
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:31.679
<v Speaker 2>great young people. And I think part of it is

930
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:36.719
<v Speaker 2>the Foredom mindset, which is to create a whole person. Okay,

931
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:39.320
<v Speaker 2>not just an academic, but a whole person. So I'm

932
00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:42.960
<v Speaker 2>proud to be associated with you in the whole university really.

933
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, and we're glad too. And you know, I learned

934
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.480
<v Speaker 1>journalism from you know, at the Columbia Spech kind of

935
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:51.920
<v Speaker 1>learning it from older students who were showing me. And

936
00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:54.079
<v Speaker 1>I got the job done, but it took a long

937
00:55:54.119 --> 00:55:56.519
<v Speaker 1>long time. And so one of the things I say

938
00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:59.800
<v Speaker 1>to my students are you are so lucky to be,

939
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:03.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, have a journalism major or have a graduate

940
00:56:03.079 --> 00:56:06.559
<v Speaker 1>program in public media that's teaching journalism, because it's just

941
00:56:06.760 --> 00:56:11.480
<v Speaker 1>such a better process. It's faster and easier to have

942
00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:14.079
<v Speaker 1>someone help you learn journalism rather than trying to learn

943
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:17.119
<v Speaker 1>it on your own. And you know, I feel like

944
00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:19.599
<v Speaker 1>our student when I got to Fordham that we didn't

945
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:22.679
<v Speaker 1>have a journalism major and we didn't have the public

946
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:26.760
<v Speaker 1>media master's program. So I feel really happy that we do.

947
00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:29.840
<v Speaker 1>And I'll tell you as you know, a lot of

948
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:32.840
<v Speaker 1>our students are doing a great job. They're getting really

949
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:37.599
<v Speaker 1>good jobs, and they're telling really important stories. And that's

950
00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:39.800
<v Speaker 1>what gets me out of bed every day, to be.

951
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:43.199
<v Speaker 2>Honest, so happy to be part of that. Beth Noble,

952
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:45.800
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for your intelligent conversation here on

953
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:48.719
<v Speaker 2>being Frank. It's really been my pleasure to heck out

954
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:49.239
<v Speaker 2>of this week.

955
00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:51.079
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, thanks for having me Frank.

956
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:53.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, of course, we offer a special thanks to

957
00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:55.840
<v Speaker 2>our listeners who take time to give us a voice

958
00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:58.800
<v Speaker 2>in their lives. We offer a fresh topic just about

959
00:56:58.840 --> 00:57:03.119
<v Speaker 2>every week, catch wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts.

960
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:06.559
<v Speaker 2>Check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page,

961
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:10.079
<v Speaker 2>and remember you can share being frank with others. I

962
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:13.199
<v Speaker 2>always leave you with two things that are relative to

963
00:57:13.239 --> 00:57:16.199
<v Speaker 2>our conversation, want to quote, and then some great music

964
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:19.239
<v Speaker 2>that has a little backstory that I was submitted by

965
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:22.079
<v Speaker 2>our composer friend Robert Debou and going to read that

966
00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:24.760
<v Speaker 2>for you and sec in just a second. First from

967
00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:28.039
<v Speaker 2>our friend Walter Cronkite, who said, our job is only

968
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:31.000
<v Speaker 2>to hold up the mirror to tell and show the

969
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:33.760
<v Speaker 2>public what has happened. I think it's a little more

970
00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:36.920
<v Speaker 2>complex than that, but that's the basics and we'll stick

971
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:40.719
<v Speaker 2>to it. Okay. Some closing music comes from and again

972
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:44.239
<v Speaker 2>keeping with our theme of Women's History Month, a wonderful

973
00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:47.400
<v Speaker 2>composer that most people haven't necessarily heard of. They've heard

974
00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:51.239
<v Speaker 2>her music, but not her name. Augusta mary Anne Holmes

975
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:54.719
<v Speaker 2>eighteen forty seven through nineteen oh three. And this is

976
00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.719
<v Speaker 2>the Triumphal March, as arranged from her march to Zoe

977
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Avs for piano by Robert de Beaux, Irish French composer.

978
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:06.760
<v Speaker 2>August Mary Anne Holmes was born in Paris and lived

979
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:10.719
<v Speaker 2>her entire life there. Her parents, well educated and upper

980
00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:14.800
<v Speaker 2>middle class, encouraged her lifelong love of learning. She was

981
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:18.559
<v Speaker 2>known as a delightful and creative young girl, and spoke French, Italian,

982
00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:24.639
<v Speaker 2>German and English, while also demonstrably precocious on piano. She

983
00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:28.320
<v Speaker 2>was not allowed to study at the famed Paris Conservatory

984
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:32.360
<v Speaker 2>because of her gender. Camille Saint Sans arranged for her

985
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:36.280
<v Speaker 2>to study with the renowned Belgian composer and organist Caesar

986
00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:40.239
<v Speaker 2>franc saying of her, like children, women have no idea

987
00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:45.360
<v Speaker 2>of obstacles, and their willpower breaks all barriers. Mademoiselle Holmes

988
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:49.000
<v Speaker 2>is a woman and extremist. Holmes published some of her

989
00:58:49.039 --> 00:58:53.679
<v Speaker 2>early works under the male pseudonym Hermann Zenda Holmes. Many

990
00:58:53.719 --> 00:58:59.400
<v Speaker 2>compositions include cantatas, symphonic poemes, operas, and over one hundred

991
00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:02.599
<v Speaker 2>songs in a few works for solo piano, including this

992
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:06.880
<v Speaker 2>march Zoaves. The Zoaves are a class of French light

993
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:12.280
<v Speaker 2>infantry serving in France's North African colonies. Briefly, some uniforms

994
00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:16.039
<v Speaker 2>of the Union Army in the American Civil War modeled

995
00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:20.000
<v Speaker 2>upon them because of their lightweight. This piano march dates

996
00:59:20.119 --> 00:59:24.360
<v Speaker 2>from eighteen sixty one, when the composer was but fourteen

997
00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:27.679
<v Speaker 2>years old. Even though she was not permitted to study there.

998
00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:31.880
<v Speaker 2>The manuscript is housed in the Library of Harris Conservatory

999
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:35.480
<v Speaker 2>and can be found on the International Music Score of

1000
00:59:35.679 --> 00:59:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Library Project. So here is a triumphal march on piano

1001
00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:45.119
<v Speaker 2>by Robert Tabona, composed by Augustus Mariette Holmes. Per engineer,

1002
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:48.159
<v Speaker 2>our engineer, the mailman, mister Neil Richter. I'm your host,

1003
00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Frank Lobono, and we hope to have you join us

1004
00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:52.719
<v Speaker 2>on the next being. Frank, We're the only way to

1005
00:59:52.800 --> 01:00:30.840
<v Speaker 2>be is Frank. Thanks everybody.

1006
01:00:14.440 --> 01:01:49.800
<v Speaker 4>Of pass

1007
01:02:39.719 --> 01:03:47.679
<v Speaker 3>Mm HM, hudsondo, the radio dot com yah