Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them Gaesy, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. For the first time in forty years, Former
Speaker 2: New York Times editor Michael Kanal has on earthed the
Speaker 2: full story behind two ruthless New York cops who acted
Speaker 2: as double agents for the mafia. No episode in NYPD
Speaker 2: history surpasses the depravities of Lewis Epildo and Stephen Kara Kappa,
Speaker 2: two decorated detectives who covertly acted as mafia informants and
Speaker 2: paid assassins in the Scorsese world of nineteen eighties Brooklyn.
Speaker 2: For more than ten years, Epildo and Kara Kappa moonlighted
Speaker 2: as the mob's early warning alert system, leaking names of mobsters,
Speaker 2: secretly cooperating with the government and crippling investigations by sharing
Speaker 2: details of surveillance, phone taps and impending arrests. The Lukhesi
Speaker 2: boss called the two detectives his crystal ball. Whatever detectives knew,
Speaker 2: the mafia soon learned most grievously. Epilito and Kara Kappa
Speaker 2: earned bonuses by staging eight mob hits, pulling the trigger
Speaker 2: themselves at least once. Incredibly evidence of their wrongdoing arose
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety four, FBI officials failed to muster an indictment.
Speaker 2: The allegations lay dormant for a decade and were only
Speaker 2: revisited due to relentless follow up by Tommy Dades, a
Speaker 2: cop determined to break the cold case before his retirement.
Speaker 2: Epilido and Kara Kappa were finally tried and then sentenced
Speaker 2: to life in prison in two thousand and nine, nearly
Speaker 2: thirty years after their crimes took place. Canal's Blood and
Speaker 2: the Badge is based on entirely new research and never
Speaker 2: before released interviews with mobsters themselves, including Sammy the Bull
Speaker 2: Gravano joining me to discuss his new book, Blood and
Speaker 2: the Badge, the Mafia to killer cops, and a scandal
Speaker 2: that shocked the nation. New York Times editor and author
Speaker 2: Michael Canal, Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 2: much for this interview. Michael Canell.
Speaker 3: And Dan, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary new book,
Speaker 2: Blood and the Badge, the Mafia, Two killer cops and
Speaker 2: a scandal, the shock the nation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, thank you, Dan, Thank you for thank
Speaker 3: you for your interest in this book, a sprawling and
Speaker 3: some might say complicated book about two corrupt cops who
Speaker 3: were secretly on the mafia payroll.
Speaker 2: Now you talk about that, you are not the first
Speaker 2: to write about Louis Epolito and Steven Kara Kappa. You are, however,
Speaker 2: the first to recount their long, entwined story in its toutality.
Speaker 2: Much of what you've written here has gone unreported until now.
Speaker 2: Tell us how it is that now this information is available.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I had written a book about the Mafia in
Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties and forties, a book called A Brotherhood Betrayed,
Speaker 3: which was really about murder incorporated the assassination arm of
Speaker 3: the mafia at that time. So I was reading and
Speaker 3: reporting and researching in the mafia field, and I became
Speaker 3: aware of the story of these two decorated detectives, high
Speaker 3: ranking detectives in the NYPD, who were moonlighting for the mob.
Speaker 3: I mean, it was not as you say, entirely a secret.
Speaker 3: It had been written about before. Some of the investigators
Speaker 3: had written I think written about them. I would say
Speaker 3: maybe incomplete books. They were published before the story had
Speaker 3: really ended, And of course the New York City newspapers
Speaker 3: covered their story, but I really thought there was an
Speaker 3: opportunity to tell the complete story. My publisher agreed. A
Speaker 3: little bit of time has passed, and I think stories
Speaker 3: like this are often told better in hindsight, after a
Speaker 3: little bit of a little bit of space between the
Speaker 3: events and the writing. Part of what made the difference
Speaker 3: for me was that the investigators DEA FBI, NYPD were
Speaker 3: willing to talk about it in this you know now.
Speaker 3: I don't know that they would have talked to me
Speaker 3: ten years ago or fifteen years ago, but they did
Speaker 3: talk to me now, and a really good number of them,
Speaker 3: I mean a couple dozen of the investigators opened up
Speaker 3: to me. I think it was in part because, as
Speaker 3: I say, time had passed, and just partially because they
Speaker 3: trusted me for whatever reason. And there may be perhaps
Speaker 3: at a stage in their life when they want to
Speaker 3: they want to talk about what they've done in about
Speaker 3: their careers in a way that they would not have earlier.
Speaker 2: Let's get to this fascinating story, and you have in
Speaker 2: part one you take us to October nineteen seventy nine
Speaker 2: and a funeral for Jimmy the Clam Epilito, a captain
Speaker 2: for twenty years who had a crew. Let's talk about
Speaker 2: Detective Louis Epilito and his wife friend and what happens
Speaker 2: at that funeral.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, part of what is I hope interesting
Speaker 3: about this book is that its main character is the
Speaker 3: detective Louis Epilido, who was born into a mafia family.
Speaker 3: His father was a captain in the Gambino crime family
Speaker 3: known as the Gangster, and his uncle was a capo,
Speaker 3: a captain known as Jimmy the Clam. Jimmy the Clam
Speaker 3: was shot and killed along with his son, due in
Speaker 3: part to some mistakes that his son had made, and
Speaker 3: so of course Louis Eppolito goes to his uncle's funeral. Now,
Speaker 3: a New York City detective is supposed to is supposed
Speaker 3: to keep his distance from known criminals, and I think,
Speaker 3: probably for some very brief period of time, Louis Eppolito
Speaker 3: tried to do that, but his family drew him back
Speaker 3: in and he began to consort with the wise guys,
Speaker 3: talk to the wise guys, do favors for the wise guys,
Speaker 3: and eventually much worse. The scene that you're describing where
Speaker 3: Louis Epilido and his wife Fran drive in from Long
Speaker 3: Island to attend his uncle's funeral is a opening scene
Speaker 3: in which Epilido is seen mingling once again with his
Speaker 3: family members and friends. And that the atmosphere there is
Speaker 3: that the notion there is that Epilido really can't escape
Speaker 3: his bloodlines. Like many people, his family draws him back
Speaker 3: in and so of course for him, this is a
Speaker 3: fork in the road. It's the first in a series
Speaker 3: of many events that draw him into this collaboration with
Speaker 3: the worst elements in the mob.
Speaker 2: Now tell us how he teams up with this Stephen
Speaker 2: Kara Kappa and what are they like and how to
Speaker 2: they assend as policemen in the NYPD.
Speaker 3: Right, So, just to back up a little bit, Louis
Speaker 3: Epolita's father, Fat the gangster no surprise, was a violent
Speaker 3: and abusive character, and Louis grew up in that atmosphere
Speaker 3: his father. His father would hit him or beat him
Speaker 3: for any even the smallest in fraction, and weeks after
Speaker 3: Fat the Gangster died of a heart attack, his son
Speaker 3: Louis joined the police academy, which was an unmistakable act
Speaker 3: of rebellion against the family, and people couldn't believe that
Speaker 3: he would do such a thing. He lied about his
Speaker 3: family background in his application. I'm not sure that it
Speaker 3: would have made much of a difference if he had
Speaker 3: told the truth. This was the time when the Vietnam
Speaker 3: Draft was skimming away eligible young man who might might
Speaker 3: otherwise have joined the police department. The police were desperate
Speaker 3: for recruits, so I think they would have I think
Speaker 3: they would have hired practically anybody. At the same time,
Speaker 3: his future partner and best friend, a young man named
Speaker 3: Stephen Kara Kappa, joined the police Academy about the same time.
Speaker 3: He had been charged with a felony. He had been
Speaker 3: caught stolen loading stolen goods into a rented truck as
Speaker 3: a teenager. The charge was dismissed. He went to Vietnam
Speaker 3: and came back. It's the same situation there was. You know,
Speaker 3: the police might not have hired somebody with a felony
Speaker 3: on their record, but they are desperate for hires. These
Speaker 3: two were put together as detectives in a unit known
Speaker 3: as Robbery South that means South Brooklyn and Kara Kappa
Speaker 3: and actually went to their boss and said, I can't
Speaker 3: work with this guy. I should explain that these two
Speaker 3: were opposites in every imaginable way. Louis Eppolito was a big, heavy, loud, borish,
Speaker 3: vulgar bully, and Kara Kappa was the opposite. He was
Speaker 3: very trim, very very quiet, quiet, almost to the point
Speaker 3: of mute, and always impeccably dressed and appropriate. They were
Speaker 3: like Laurel and Hardy. They were opposites, but somehow so
Speaker 3: some it might not have surprised the boss when Kara
Speaker 3: Kappa came and said, I can't work with this slob,
Speaker 3: this loudmouth slob Louis Epolito. But the boss said said, okay,
Speaker 3: give it a month and if you still feel that
Speaker 3: way after a month, come back to me. And he
Speaker 3: never came back. And somehow these two forge some kind
Speaker 3: of the relationship. And one of the mysteries of their
Speaker 3: friendship is how they broached this subject, how they agreed
Speaker 3: that they were going to launch this illegal career working
Speaker 3: for the mob.
Speaker 2: Who is their connection. And when they try to go
Speaker 2: to another level of crime, they're doing crimes to supplement
Speaker 2: their police incomes. But who is their connection to this
Speaker 2: next level of criminality and what do they offer in
Speaker 2: that new role.
Speaker 3: It happened this way. There was at this time in
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties in New York an exalted drug dealer,
Speaker 3: really a drug baron. I guess you could call them
Speaker 3: a drug magnate called Bert Caplan. Bert Kaplan was a
Speaker 3: degenerate gambler, and he had spent his entire adult life
Speaker 3: engaged in illegal activities in order to pay off his
Speaker 3: gambling debts. He couldn't join the mafia he was not
Speaker 3: of Italian descent. He collaborated with the mafia and in particular,
Speaker 3: the Lukse crime family in many schemes, schemes of his
Speaker 3: own design. Now, Caplan was arrested a number of times.
Speaker 3: He went to jail a couple of times. In one
Speaker 3: of his jail stints in Pennsylvania, his best friend, his
Speaker 3: jailhouse buddy, was a man named Frankie Centaura. Frankie Centaura
Speaker 3: happened to be the detective Louis Epolito's cousin. When they
Speaker 3: were set to be released, Santora said to the drug dealer,
Speaker 3: Bert Caplan, if you have any problem when we get out,
Speaker 3: if you need any work done, my cousin Louis is
Speaker 3: a detective. He's happy to work for you. He'll do anything,
Speaker 3: and it's very signific It's significant that he said anything.
Speaker 3: So Bert Caplan was not inclined to work with a detective,
Speaker 3: was just too dicey. But not long after his release,
Speaker 3: he in fact did call on Santora and Santora's cousin,
Speaker 3: Louis Appolito, to do a little bit of work. Caplan
Speaker 3: was involved in a scheme to sell stolen treasury bonds,
Speaker 3: and in this particular case, they had either hired or
Speaker 3: duped a diamond dealer named Israel Greenwald into selling the
Speaker 3: stolen treasury bar in London. When Greenwald returned and got
Speaker 3: off the plane at JFK Airport, the FBI grabbed him
Speaker 3: in customs and interrogated him. So Bert Kaplan became aware
Speaker 3: that his associate, Israel Greenwald might be cooperating with the FBI.
Speaker 3: So what was his solution to that? His solution was
Speaker 3: to arrange for Israel Greenwald to be killed, So he
Speaker 3: contacted his jailhouse friend Frankie Santora, who in turn contacted
Speaker 3: his cousin, Detective Louis Eppolito. Eppolito and his partner Stephen
Speaker 3: Kara Kappa abducted Israel Greenwald on his way home one day.
Speaker 3: They took him to a repair shop in garage on
Speaker 3: Nostrin Avenue in Brooklyn, and there Israel Greenwald was shot
Speaker 3: in a shed and buried. And that was the beginning
Speaker 3: of Epolito and Kara Kappa's long relationship with the drug
Speaker 3: dealer Bert Kaplan and by extension, with the mob.
Speaker 2: Let's talk and go I guess backwards a bit to
Speaker 2: internal affairs investigation targeting Louis Epolito. Tell us about this
Speaker 2: investigation and what happens as a result.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a critical part of this story. One day,
Speaker 3: the FBI and the New Jersey State Police raided the
Speaker 3: home in Cherry Hill, New Jersey of a Sicilian heroin
Speaker 3: smuggler named Rosario Gambino, part of the Gambino crime family,
Speaker 3: and they were astonished to find that Gambino in his
Speaker 3: home had a copy of his own police file. He
Speaker 3: had in his possession his own police file. Somebody had
Speaker 3: given it to him. Tests showed that Louis Epilito's fingerprints
Speaker 3: were on the pages in the file. So Epilito was
Speaker 3: caught more or less red hend and they had him
Speaker 3: dead to rights, and he was brought before Internal Affairs,
Speaker 3: as you would expect. Then something really unexpected happened. Internal
Speaker 3: Affairs dismissed the case. Not only did they dismiss the case,
Speaker 3: but promoted Epildo to detective second grade and they invited
Speaker 3: him to pick where he would work in within the
Speaker 3: police department.
Speaker 2: Incredible, and he.
Speaker 3: Chose the six' three, precinct which is in the heart
Speaker 3: of mafia land In South. Brookland SO i mean a
Speaker 3: couple of a couple of important things. There one is
Speaker 3: why did that? HAPPEN i DON'T i don't have a
Speaker 3: definitive answer to, that but my best guess is that
Speaker 3: at this time the police were weary of headlines about.
Speaker 3: Corruption this came in the wake of THE nap, Commission,
Speaker 3: serproco et. CETERA i Think Benjamin, ward the Police, commissioner
Speaker 3: simply Didn't he didn't have the tolerance for another police,
Speaker 3: scandal and so they just swept it under the run
Speaker 3: and hope that it would it would go. Away but
Speaker 3: this was a critical juncture because this was an opportunity
Speaker 3: for the police to Catch Louis epoldo and they botched.
Speaker 3: It of, course he And Stephen Kara kappa were not
Speaker 3: only got away with, this but they were they were,
Speaker 3: emboldened and they would go on to do much worse.
Speaker 2: Things let's get back To Bert kaplan and the relationship
Speaker 2: with The Kara kappa And epolito and what that involves
Speaker 2: in terms of their, duties what they had offered in
Speaker 2: terms of, information but also information about informants and just
Speaker 2: progress on ongoing, investigations and even offered to do murders.
Speaker 3: Themselves, Right So Bert, caplan the, intermediary had a particular
Speaker 3: relationship with The lucas the, underboss who was a man
Speaker 3: named Gas Pipe, caso was the point man for all
Speaker 3: files and information within major, case and So Kara kappa
Speaker 3: had his hands on EVERYTHING, fbi DE, EA, nypd and
Speaker 3: so he plucked out the information that he thought The
Speaker 3: luksey underboss Gas Pipe cassom might, want who was about
Speaker 3: to be, arrested whose phones were, tapped and in particular
Speaker 3: who was a, rat who was an informant who was
Speaker 3: secretly making deals with the. Government and what's, more Gas
Speaker 3: pipe Paid appallito And Kara kappa via kaplan a bonus
Speaker 3: to facilitate the abduction or killing of those informants.
Speaker 2: That jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these.
Speaker 2: Messages let's talk about as you Do you're write about
Speaker 2: G Robert, blakey a lawyer and professor on The Senate
Speaker 2: committee On Criminal laws And procedure and an alcolyte Of Robert.
Speaker 2: Kennedy let's talk About rico laws and their.
Speaker 1: Formation.
Speaker 3: YEAH i never thought THAT i would be interested in
Speaker 3: this kind of this kind of law, discussion BUT i
Speaker 3: have to say The rico laws were really fascinating to,
Speaker 3: me AND i hope they will be to. OTHERS i,
Speaker 3: mean the, old the kind of the. Old the old
Speaker 3: punchline is is that when when Al capone was arrested and,
Speaker 3: indicted he was indicted for tax. Evasion and so why was?
Speaker 3: That it's because historically the mob bosses were. Untouchable the
Speaker 3: police and THE fbi could catch the, soldiers the mob,
Speaker 3: soldiers the little guys because they were the ones who
Speaker 3: pulled the. Trigger but just as soon as they were pulled,
Speaker 3: off the streets the mob bosses would replace. Them so
Speaker 3: this was the dilemma in law enforcement for, decades how
Speaker 3: to how to get the mob bosses who are not
Speaker 3: pulling the trigger, Themselves they're telling somebody else to pull the.
Speaker 3: Trigger so would what would you indict them? For Ge
Speaker 3: Robert blakey wrote what is called The Rico. Laws these
Speaker 3: The rico law treated the criminal organization as as an
Speaker 3: entity behind these, crimes so that anyone who engaged, in,
Speaker 3: say a conspiracy to, murder was implicated in the, crime
Speaker 3: even if they themselves did not pull the. Trigger and
Speaker 3: this was potentially a game. Changer, Ironically blakey wrote the
Speaker 3: laws and then nobody used them for a long. Time
Speaker 3: they sat in the books for a, decade AND i
Speaker 3: THINK i think it drove him. Crazy and so he
Speaker 3: embarked on a tour of the country talking to one
Speaker 3: prosecutor's office after, another trying to like an, evangelist trying
Speaker 3: to get them to use The rico, laws and they
Speaker 3: largely just shrugged him. OFF i think their feeling, was
Speaker 3: what is, This what does this law professor have to teach?
Speaker 3: Us crime has fought on the, streets not you, know
Speaker 3: not in the in the lecture, halls AND i think
Speaker 3: some federal prosecutor thought it was Too The rico law
Speaker 3: was too complicated for a jury to, understand AND i
Speaker 3: suspect in some cases it was too complicated for the
Speaker 3: prosecutors themselves to. Understand, then in the mid, Eighties Rudy,
Speaker 3: giuliani then a federal prosecutor In New, york picked up
Speaker 3: on The rico laws and used them with great success
Speaker 3: to bust the top ranks of the crime families In New.
Speaker 3: York and this this was really really significant in our,
Speaker 3: story because the mafia entered into a period of disorganization and.
Speaker 3: Disarray organized crime became. Disorganized it was a period of.
Speaker 3: Paranoia a lot of people were. Flipping and so For Gaspi,
Speaker 3: casso the underboss of The luchesi, family the two corrupt
Speaker 3: detectives who were willing to help, him they were a
Speaker 3: kind of a. Lifeline he called them his crystal ball
Speaker 3: for obvious. Reasons they could predict what was going to,
Speaker 3: happen and so in a period where he was trying to,
Speaker 3: survive the two detectives they were part of his strategy for.
Speaker 2: Survival you talk About Paul castelano being. Murdered and so
Speaker 2: now there's a power. Vacuum so you introduce a, character
Speaker 2: a very interesting character Named Jimmy. Hidell tell us About
Speaker 2: Jimmy hidell and his, Girlfriend annette De.
Speaker 3: Bassi, Right Jimmy hidell was born into a mob related
Speaker 3: family In Staten. Island, jimmy Like, kaplan could not could
Speaker 3: not be inducted into the. Mafia he could not be
Speaker 3: made a made man because he was Of irish, descent
Speaker 3: Not italian. Descent but he was a eager part participant
Speaker 3: and an aspiring. MOBSTER a. Hustler jimmy happened to have
Speaker 3: a girlfriend Named. Annette they had an on, again off again.
Speaker 3: Relationship jimmy was jealous to the point of. Violence when
Speaker 3: they broke. Up A nette would go out with other
Speaker 3: men and he. Would at one point he abducted her
Speaker 3: and tied her up in an. Apartment when she got,
Speaker 3: away she talked to a grand. Jury the grand jury
Speaker 3: did not actually Charge. Jimmy but Now jimmy was afraid
Speaker 3: of what A nette might, say and so he and
Speaker 3: a friend grabbed a net on her way to work one.
Speaker 3: Morning they shot her and killed her in a shallow
Speaker 3: grave near a dilapidated motel In Staten. Island Jimmy jimmy
Speaker 3: was eager to do favors for, mobsters to endear himself
Speaker 3: to climb a rung in the, ladder and when when asked,
Speaker 3: to he organized an assassination of Gas Pipe, caso the.
Speaker 3: Underboss they pulled up alongside him in a parking lot
Speaker 3: of a strip mall in The Mill basin neighborhood Of.
Speaker 3: Brooklyn they fired on. Him if you fire on Gas Pipe,
Speaker 3: cassa you had better kill. Him but they boxed it
Speaker 3: And Gaspipe casso ran into a. Restaurant he ran downstairs
Speaker 3: and hid in a kind of a walk in refrigerator
Speaker 3: down in the, basement and he. Survived so now he
Speaker 3: would spend the following year's exacting revenge on his would
Speaker 3: be as, essence and his first task was to Hire
Speaker 3: epilido And Kara kappa to Abduct Jimmy. Hidell they would
Speaker 3: gladly have Killed jimmy or Gas, pipe but Gas pipe
Speaker 3: Wanted jimmy alive because he wanted to extract as much
Speaker 3: information From jimmy as he could about this botched, assassination
Speaker 3: and So epildo And Kara kappa drove out to The
Speaker 3: hidel family home In Staten. Island they circled the block
Speaker 3: a couple of. Times heidel's, Mother, betty came outside and confronted.
Speaker 3: Them they showed their police badges and they drove. Off
Speaker 3: later that, day they Found jimmy In. Brooklyn they took
Speaker 3: him to the same garage Where Israel greenwald had been.
Speaker 3: Killed they didn't kill. Him they tied him up and
Speaker 3: put him in the trunk of a car and per
Speaker 3: gas pipes. Instructions they drove to a parking lot beside
Speaker 3: A toys R us next to The Belt parkway In,
Speaker 3: brooklyn and they gave the car With Jimmy hidel in
Speaker 3: the trunk To Gaspipe. Casso casso then Took jimmy to
Speaker 3: a friend's basement and he Shot jimmy more than fifteen,
Speaker 3: times and he, did in fact extract information from him
Speaker 3: about who was behind this, shooting who was. Involved at one,
Speaker 3: Point jimmy, SAID i know you're going to kill. Me
Speaker 3: my one request is that you dumped my body on
Speaker 3: the street so that my mother can claim the insurance.
Speaker 3: Money without the, body you can't claim. Insurance Gaspye casso
Speaker 3: did not do.
Speaker 2: That the.
Speaker 3: Body the body has never been, found but that encounter
Speaker 3: When epleo And Kara kappa drove out to The hydel
Speaker 3: family house And jimmy's Mother betty confronted, them that was
Speaker 3: later a critical moment in their.
Speaker 2: Investigations Let's jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these.
Speaker 2: Messages at the same, Time casso gets information From kaplan
Speaker 2: Via epolito And Kara kappa about the other, assassin a
Speaker 2: person Named Nicki. Guido there's a problem with, This Nicki.
Speaker 2: Guido there's two of. Them explain this unfortunate.
Speaker 3: Situation, YEAH i, mean AS i mentioned, Earlier Kara kappa
Speaker 3: was skimming valuable information FROM fbi and police records in
Speaker 3: The Major case squad and passing and this information along
Speaker 3: to Gas pipe Via, kaplan but the information was not always.
Speaker 3: Right Nicki guido was a young man who had been
Speaker 3: involved in the botched assassination of Gas pipe in The
Speaker 3: Strip mall parking. Lot casso was kind of going down
Speaker 3: the list of people who are involved in trying to kill,
Speaker 3: him So Kara kappa And ablita passed this information along
Speaker 3: to Gas. Pipe Gas pipe sends his gunman to Shoot Nicki.
Speaker 3: Guido On Christmas, day they shoot him outside of his
Speaker 3: family home In. Brooklyn he dies in his car just
Speaker 3: outside the family. Home the problem was that it was
Speaker 3: the Wrong Nicki. Guido it was a case of mistaken,
Speaker 3: identity Same Nicki, guido but wrong. Person the Real Nicki
Speaker 3: guido lived in an adjacent. Neighborhood SO i, mean this
Speaker 3: is a, case you, know JUST i, mean tragedy Follows
Speaker 3: tragedy follows this story every step of the, way but
Speaker 3: none of those tragedies are worse than this. One the,
Speaker 3: victim the innocent, victim was a young man well liked
Speaker 3: in the, neighborhood twenty six years, old just about to
Speaker 3: join the fire. Department his, family can, imagine never never
Speaker 3: really got over. It his father stopped taking his medications
Speaker 3: and died a couple of years. Later you, know we
Speaker 3: watch These mafia movies And MAFIA tv, shows But i'm
Speaker 3: not sure we're ever fully aware of how you, know
Speaker 3: of the tragedy that goes along with these.
Speaker 2: Stories you're right, that, meanwhile That rico precipitates sentences like
Speaker 2: one hundred year, sentences but also induces mobsters to start.
Speaker 2: Talking and because the caret as you, write can be
Speaker 2: The Witness Protection.
Speaker 3: Program, YEAH i mean THAT'S i mean concurrent with The
Speaker 3: Rico laws was the foundation the forming of The Witness Protection,
Speaker 3: program and these two provisions changed. EVERYTHING i guess WHAT
Speaker 3: i would say is that for many of the mafia,
Speaker 3: members they didn't necessarily choose this. LIFE i, mean, yes
Speaker 3: of course they knew what they were, doing but they
Speaker 3: were kind of born into this. World and for some of,
Speaker 3: them it probably seemed like it was the only game in.
Speaker 3: Town and then once they were in, it there was
Speaker 3: no way to get out of. It there was no
Speaker 3: way to get out of. It but now with The Rico,
Speaker 3: laws The Rico laws induced people to lip because the
Speaker 3: sentences were so, severe as you, mentioned but they also it,
Speaker 3: dangled The feds would dangle this possibility of starting, over
Speaker 3: starting a new life under a new, name and a
Speaker 3: new job and a new home somewhere somewhere far. Away
Speaker 3: and the combination of The Rico laws and The Witness
Speaker 3: Protection program caused a great number of these of these
Speaker 3: wise guys to cooperate with the.
Speaker 2: Government you taught you write about that after a person
Speaker 2: Named Dominic costa is, shot police realize or certain detectives
Speaker 2: realized that there must be a mole in The New
Speaker 2: York Police.
Speaker 3: Department, YEAH i mean it's sort of slowly dawned on
Speaker 3: individuals in law enforcement across the agencies that that there
Speaker 3: was a suspicious pattern by which by which the mobsters
Speaker 3: were anticipating what what was what was going to. HAPPEN
Speaker 3: i mean part part of what happened there was that
Speaker 3: the high ranking detectives often worked, autonomously by WHICH i
Speaker 3: mean they worked on their. Own they didn't share information with,
Speaker 3: anybody and so there was there were a scattering of
Speaker 3: EIGHT fbi agents and NYP d detectives who began to
Speaker 3: see that that that sharing, information particularly sharing information With Kara,
Speaker 3: kappa could have, consequences and so some of them went
Speaker 3: to went to some lengths to uh to not share
Speaker 3: share their information with the with the normal. Channels they
Speaker 3: went outside the normal channels because they had become suspicious
Speaker 3: Of Kara kappa and for good.
Speaker 2: Reason what was some of the information that was eventually
Speaker 2: garnered from informants that law enforcement eventually pieced together in
Speaker 2: this progressive. Investigation, Well i'll mention one.
Speaker 3: Example THE dea at that time was investigating some pot,
Speaker 3: dealers some marijuana dealers In Staten, island and these were
Speaker 3: mob connected pot. DEALERS i, mean these were really really
Speaker 3: big time drug dealers and they were bringing pot in
Speaker 3: from across the, country From, mexico From canada and bringing
Speaker 3: it To Staten island and selling it to. Distributors and
Speaker 3: a A dea agent Named Frank drew was coordinating their.
Speaker 3: Surveillance And Frank drew was among those who came to
Speaker 3: be came to be suspicious about the mob having fore
Speaker 3: knowledge of. Events for, example they seemed to know when
Speaker 3: their phones were being, tapped and when they were, arrested
Speaker 3: they seemed to know that they were going to be.
Speaker 3: Arrested they, said we knew you were. Coming they hid the,
Speaker 3: money they hid incriminating. Evidence and when some of these
Speaker 3: pot dealers were arrested and they began to, talk some
Speaker 3: of them. Flipped they said To Frank drew and others
Speaker 3: in THE, dea you have no, Idea you have no
Speaker 3: idea about the crystal, ball you have no idea where
Speaker 3: we're getting this. Information and that was now they were
Speaker 3: the pot dealers were working closely With Bert kaplan and
Speaker 3: so this was from THE dea. Side was this was
Speaker 3: the beginning of the suspicion that something more than they
Speaker 3: expected was going. On they had thought they were just
Speaker 3: simply bringing down a drug drug, traffickers but they began
Speaker 3: to understand that there was a lot more to the
Speaker 3: story than.
Speaker 2: That you say That drew had asked exactly how they
Speaker 2: had found, out how they the police or pardon, me
Speaker 2: how they had known about information?
Speaker 3: Beforehand, RIGHT i, Mean Frank drew asked them how did
Speaker 3: they know in this sort of messy period after they
Speaker 3: the drug dealers were, Busted and in, particular there was
Speaker 3: a drug dealer who was imprisoned In tennessee and, flipped
Speaker 3: and he began to tell them about the crystal ball
Speaker 3: and about this connection With kaplan And kaplan's connection with
Speaker 3: these with these, detectives and this was happening happening concurrently
Speaker 3: with detectives in THE nypd coming to the same. Conclusion
Speaker 3: but law enforcement doesn't always share information across. AGENCIES i,
Speaker 3: mean there was a kind of a funny episode Where Drew,
Speaker 3: Kaplan Frank drew intended to use an abandoned building across
Speaker 3: From Frank DREW'S i, mean From Burt caplain's warehouse to
Speaker 3: surveil him and found, that in, fact THE nypd was
Speaker 3: already using that building to Surveil. Caplin so you have
Speaker 3: the case of a couple of agency law enforcement. Agencies
Speaker 3: we were kind of zeroing in On caplan And uppolly
Speaker 3: In Kara. Kappa but the left hand doesn't know what
Speaker 3: the right hand is. Doing you're.
Speaker 2: Right interestingly That eppolito retires FROM nypd in nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: and then wants to have another, career and he Chose
Speaker 2: hollywood as his future. Career tell us what he does
Speaker 2: in that, endeavor.
Speaker 3: Right epolito, retires collects his generous police. Pension thinking that
Speaker 3: he has gotten away with all of, this he moves
Speaker 3: to a subdivision in the outskirts Of Las. Vegas his
Speaker 3: best Friend stephen and Partner. Stephen Kara kappa follows a
Speaker 3: couple of years, later and oddly enough lives across the
Speaker 3: street From. Epolita why does he live across the, Street,
Speaker 3: well he never said, it But i'm pretty sure the
Speaker 3: reason is That, kara the circumspect silent, detective was worried
Speaker 3: about whether his, friend the loud Mouthed Louis, eppolito would
Speaker 3: do something, unwise whether he would give them away in some.
Speaker 3: Way it was just In epilito's nature to boast and grab,
Speaker 3: attention hence his aspirations to be A hollywood, actor to write,
Speaker 3: screenplays to direct. Movies in, fact he was in a
Speaker 3: dozen or so. Movies most, notably he had a cameo
Speaker 3: in the Movie. Goodfellas he played a character Called Fat.
Speaker 3: Andy and Then epolito does something really. Stupid he writes
Speaker 3: a memoir about his life as a detective who was
Speaker 3: born into a mafia. Family of, course he doesn't reveal
Speaker 3: the crimes that he, committed but he does reveal a
Speaker 3: lot of. Things When Kara kappa finds out about, this
Speaker 3: he is. Furious this is exactly what he Feared louis would.
Speaker 3: Do in the, book there's a photo of the two of,
Speaker 3: them and the, caption of, course names, them identifies. Them
Speaker 3: Kara kappa's fear was that anybody who had seen them
Speaker 3: in action in the course of their duties on behalf
Speaker 3: of The luchese crime family could now identify them by.
Speaker 3: Name and that's exactly what.
Speaker 2: Happened let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
Speaker 2: hear these. Messages now tell us how it comes that
Speaker 2: agents get information and the case is. Revived you, say
Speaker 2: how is it that The epolito And Kara, kappa despite
Speaker 2: all of these prosecutions and people actually naming, them that
Speaker 2: they evade, Prosecution and then you write about the case
Speaker 2: revived in the late nineties by someone Named Tommy.
Speaker 1: Dates.
Speaker 3: Right, so So, epilido as we just, Said Louis epilido
Speaker 3: wrote his, memoir wrote his book and his photo And
Speaker 3: Stephen Carra kappa's photos are in the book and they're named.
Speaker 3: Now Betty, hidell the mother Of Jimmy, hideal the young
Speaker 3: man Who Epily doo And Kara kappa. Abducted betty had
Speaker 3: Confronted epolydo And Carra kappa outside of the family home
Speaker 3: on the day that they were looking For Jimmy, hideal her,
Speaker 3: son and they found her son that day and he
Speaker 3: was never seen. Again so when the book comes, Out
Speaker 3: epildo was on the talk Show The Sally Jesse Raphael
Speaker 3: show promoting the book And betty has THE tv on
Speaker 3: in the family home and she Sees epildo and she
Speaker 3: recognizes him and she thinks that's one of the two
Speaker 3: men who abducted my, Son. Jimmy she goes out and
Speaker 3: buys the, book and sure, enough there they are in the,
Speaker 3: Book epallito And Kara, kappa and now she knows their.
Speaker 3: Names So betty comes from a mafia. Family she doesn't
Speaker 3: trust a lot of law, enforcement but she does trust
Speaker 3: a detective Named Tommy. Dades Tommy days was a detective
Speaker 3: who had investigated the murder of her other, Son, frankie
Speaker 3: who was shot to death in the parking lot of
Speaker 3: A Staten Island strip. Mall And tommy isn't just an
Speaker 3: Amazing he's an amazing, man an amazing. Detective and he
Speaker 3: was raised by a single mother In, brooklyn very tough,
Speaker 3: Neighborhood Sunset park back then and throughout his, Career tommy
Speaker 3: had he cultivated a special relationship with the, mothers the
Speaker 3: mothers of the, perpetrators the mothers of the, victims and
Speaker 3: he had a special relationship With, betty and she trusted,
Speaker 3: him and so she called him and told him what
Speaker 3: she had. Discovered that the two detectives who had come
Speaker 3: looking for her, Son, jimmy were Named Louis eppoline And
Speaker 3: Stephen Kara. Kappa Tommy dages took this information to The
Speaker 3: Brooklyn DIA's, office they gave him the green light to
Speaker 3: conduct an. Investigation his investigation met with some resistance the,
Speaker 3: police particularly the older, cops did not like the idea
Speaker 3: of a cop investigating, cops but he persevered and one
Speaker 3: of the things he did was to call A dea
Speaker 3: agent In Las vegas Named Timmy, moran And Timmy moran
Speaker 3: began to Surveil epilido And Kara kappa and he sent
Speaker 3: an accountant undercover wired up to a series of meetings
Speaker 3: With epilido And Kara, kappa.
Speaker 2: And he.
Speaker 3: He acted as if he were going to help raise
Speaker 3: money For epolito's film. PROJECTS i, mean it was entirely,
Speaker 3: fictitious but that was his. Ploy and at one of
Speaker 3: these meals he, said, oh the, backers the investors in
Speaker 3: your film are coming To Las. Vegas they would like
Speaker 3: to have some party. Drugs And epolita, said, oh my
Speaker 3: son can help with. That and that was a critical
Speaker 3: moment because The rico law requires law comes with a
Speaker 3: statute of, limitations which was about to, expire but the
Speaker 3: sale of meth to this undercover accountant reset the clock
Speaker 3: on the statute of limitations and allowed for the indictment
Speaker 3: Of epilino In Kara.
Speaker 2: Kappa you're right that if they were to have prosecuted
Speaker 2: in state court, though that that statute of limitations wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Apply is that?
Speaker 3: True, Yeah this this became a point of real contention
Speaker 3: in the politics of law enforcement Within New York, city
Speaker 3: to the point where people are still angry about, this and,
Speaker 3: UNDERSTANDABLY i think The Brooklyn Die's office really revived this
Speaker 3: case Against epilto And Karra kappa after THE feds had
Speaker 3: abandoned it the bed just to back, up the fed's
Speaker 3: had a case against had a case against Epilete On Kara,
Speaker 3: kappa but they really walked away from. It it happened this.
Speaker 3: Way Epilet On Carra kappa's patron in The lukeesy crime,
Speaker 3: family the, Underboss Gaspipe, casso. Flipped after a lifetime of killing,
Speaker 3: informants he became the biggest informant of all and, he
Speaker 3: in a series of, debriefings described the thirty six murders
Speaker 3: he'd been involved. In but he also dropped a. Bombshell
Speaker 3: he had Two New York city detectives on his. Payroll.
Speaker 3: Unbelievable so now THE feds had an insider who could
Speaker 3: testify Against Epolete On Kara. Kappa but then Gas pipe
Speaker 3: started to bad mouth the other the other marquee, witnesses
Speaker 3: most Notably sammy the Bol, gravano who had been critical
Speaker 3: to the prosecution Of John. Gotti, right and THE feds
Speaker 3: were in a low grade panic over this because they
Speaker 3: had tried several times to Convict gotti and they finally,
Speaker 3: did and if Gas pipes started to tear down their
Speaker 3: marquee witness the whole thing could be. Undone so their
Speaker 3: solution was just simply to rip up Gas Pype casso's
Speaker 3: plea agreement and send them To supermax. Prison the beneficiary of,
Speaker 3: this of course was Epilet On Kara, kappa because now
Speaker 3: there was no longer an insider to testify against. Them
Speaker 3: so fast forward a couple of years And Timmy, moran
Speaker 3: THE dea, agent is making these recordings of Epilete On
Speaker 3: Kara kappa and the drug, sale and, that as we,
Speaker 3: said that resets The rico The rico, clock and so
Speaker 3: epitly Known Kara kappa could now be indicted Under rico.
Speaker 2: Law you say that they can't Use casso as a
Speaker 2: witness at, all so they say they need somebody on the,
Speaker 2: inside and who do they choose as that.
Speaker 3: Person they choose the most unlikely person of, all even
Speaker 3: more unlikely than guessed By, casso and that Was Bert,
Speaker 3: kaplan the drug. Dealer and the REASON i say unlikely
Speaker 3: is that even Though Bert kaplan could not join the,
Speaker 3: mafia he was Of Jewish he Was, Jewish he was
Speaker 3: stricter about the rules of the mafia than anyone. Else
Speaker 3: and he swore over and over and over again to
Speaker 3: law enforcement that he would never share, information he would never,
Speaker 3: flip he would never be a. Rat but in fact
Speaker 3: he did become a. Rat and he became a. RAT
Speaker 3: i think we can see for two. Reasons one is
Speaker 3: he was confronted in jail with the death Of Nikki,
Speaker 3: guido the, innocent the innocent man who was. Shot and,
Speaker 3: secondarily he knew that if he didn't, Flip eppolito And
Speaker 3: Kara kappa might flip and testify against. Him his daughter
Speaker 3: had just adopted a, son and he knew that if
Speaker 3: he was to hold his grandson helped to raise his,
Speaker 3: grandson he would have to stay out of.
Speaker 2: Prison you also talk about his, Daughter deborah and her
Speaker 2: aspiring career at that same.
Speaker 4: Time, interestingly, yeah, Ironically Bert, kaplan the drug, dealer the
Speaker 4: architect of god knows how many illegal financial schemes that
Speaker 4: he worked on with the.
Speaker 3: Mafia his daughter went to law school and became a
Speaker 3: eventually became a. Judge today she's a judge of The
Speaker 3: New York city judicial.
Speaker 2: System let's get to this eventual. Prosecution this Is mike
Speaker 2: vishone at THE Us state attorney or pardon, me the
Speaker 2: prosecutor in this tell us about this prosecution and, again
Speaker 2: fascinatingly the defense For Kara kappa and For Louis. Epalido.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so as we, Mentioned Tommy dage developed this case
Speaker 3: in The brooklyn DA's office with the intention That Mike
Speaker 3: vicki oonne A brooklyn and Accomplished BROOKLYN da would prosecute the.
Speaker 3: Case and they began to collaborate with federal authorities on this,
Speaker 3: case partially Because Bert kaplan was a federal, prisoner and
Speaker 3: so they need to. Cooperate the two the state prosecutors
Speaker 3: and the federal prosecutors need to cooperate because they are
Speaker 3: sharing they're sharing, evidence and they're sharing a. Witness but,
Speaker 3: eventually the federal, prosecutors who had abandoned this case years,
Speaker 3: earlier took it, over and they made they made the
Speaker 3: argument that rather than split this into a murder case
Speaker 3: tried by state attorneys and a rico case tried by federal,
Speaker 3: attorneys it should really all be bundled into one case
Speaker 3: tried by the federal. Attorneys and THIS i Mean Mike.
Speaker 3: Vickione The BROOKLYN da begrudgingly went along with, that agreed with,
Speaker 3: that but it was beyond. FRUSTRATING i think To Tommy,
Speaker 3: Dads Mike, vickione and others in The brooklyn DA's office
Speaker 3: that they revived this case and then had it had
Speaker 3: it taken away from. Them epolito And Kara kappa hired
Speaker 3: two celebrity defense, Lawyers Bruce cutler And Ed, hayes to defend.
Speaker 3: Them Bruce cutler had famously Defended John. GOTTIE i don't
Speaker 3: know why if you were claiming to be innocent you
Speaker 3: would hire a lawyer who was only ever associated with
Speaker 3: mom trials that. Did they were just sort of give
Speaker 3: away the ending year they were, convicted and then the,
Speaker 3: judge and a really revered judge Named Jack, weinstein threw
Speaker 3: the conviction out on a. Technicality he didn't buy the
Speaker 3: drug sale as being part of the, rico and so
Speaker 3: he said that he felt that the statute of limitations had,
Speaker 3: expired and so once again And Kara kappa appeared to
Speaker 3: have gotten away with, this but the appeals or reinstated the.
Speaker 2: Conviction you're right that judge had a strategy with not
Speaker 2: dismissing this case earlier on enabling the prosecution to have
Speaker 2: a second. Chance can you explain that? Strategy, YEAH i Mean.
Speaker 3: Judge weinstein never said this, explicitly but people involved in
Speaker 3: the trial and courtroom observers believe that that he waited
Speaker 3: until after the trial to rule on this issue of statute,
Speaker 3: limitations which allowed the higher court to reinstate the. Conviction
Speaker 3: and their feeling is he could easily have made that.
Speaker 3: Ruling Judge weinstein could easily have made that ruling at
Speaker 3: the beginning of the, trial and in that case there
Speaker 3: would have been no. Recourse but the thought is that
Speaker 3: he deliberately waited until the end so that so that in,
Speaker 3: fact the appeals court could could assure that justice would be.
Speaker 2: Done you, Right this is dramatic testimonials at the sentencing
Speaker 2: the first, time and then three years, later family certain
Speaker 2: family members victims' family members rose to say they're parting
Speaker 2: Piece Eddie lino's, Son Israel greenwald's, daughter And Barry gibbs
Speaker 2: interestingly as.
Speaker 3: Well, YEAH i MEAN i felt like in this book
Speaker 3: and in my previous, BOOKS i feel like the trials
Speaker 3: are are really trying to think of how to put.
Speaker 3: It useful isn't exactly the right. Word they're they're important
Speaker 3: to the storytelling because this is this is an involved
Speaker 3: story with a lot of characters and a lot of.
Speaker 3: Threads and here at the, trial all the different people
Speaker 3: characters come together and the family members of both the
Speaker 3: perpetrators and the victims sitting next to each other in
Speaker 3: excruciatingly awkward, proximity and one by one the characters in
Speaker 3: the story take the stand and tell their version of
Speaker 3: the truth, anyway and it all comes. OUT i, mean
Speaker 3: it's like a. Movie all of a, sudden the, story you,
Speaker 3: know many of the issues and the mysteries are, resolved
Speaker 3: and there's a sort of catharsis, because as you, mentioned
Speaker 3: the victims before the, sentencing the victims' families and In
Speaker 3: Barry gibbs's, case the victim are allowed to have their
Speaker 3: say and it's very. Emotional Barry gibbs was postal worker
Speaker 3: who had been framed In brooklyn By epolido for the
Speaker 3: murder of a prostitute found lying in the grass beside
Speaker 3: The Belt parkway along the southern border Of, brooklyn and
Speaker 3: he went to jail for almost two. Decades but With
Speaker 3: epolito's arrest came information leading To Barry gibbs's.
Speaker 2: Release he has very interesting and dramatic scene in this
Speaker 2: book Where epallito is confronted as right in the gallery
Speaker 2: By Barry, gibbs and he, says do you know WHO i?
Speaker 2: Am and That pallido said, no and then he told
Speaker 2: them who he was an what prison would be like for.
Speaker 4: Him.
Speaker 3: Yeah it really is like a scene in a, movie isn't.
Speaker 3: IT i, mean their roles are reversed in a. Way
Speaker 3: epilido Is epilido has just been released from. Prison i'm,
Speaker 3: Sorry Barry gibbs has just been released from. Prison epilido
Speaker 3: is about to go into. Prison and after the agony
Speaker 3: OF i believe it was nineteen years in, JAIL i
Speaker 3: would have to chest That Barry gibbs is a free
Speaker 3: is a free man and confronts confronts the man who
Speaker 3: who put him in.
Speaker 2: Prison you have an interesting end of the book where
Speaker 2: you talk about the dedicated detectives and investigators for the
Speaker 2: district attorney and also prosecutors and how they still communicate
Speaker 2: with each other and talk about remarkably unsolved cases and
Speaker 2: this case as.
Speaker 3: WELL i, MEAN i came to understand in reporting this
Speaker 3: book that the best of these, detectives just the their
Speaker 3: level of dedication is, just you, know just so. Praiseworthy
Speaker 3: And Tommy, Days Frank, drew these men hated to retire
Speaker 3: with cold cases out, there and so even in retirement
Speaker 3: they formed almost like a little club that would that
Speaker 3: would try to solve cold. Cases and they worked they
Speaker 3: worked with a a since retired police official who was
Speaker 3: responsible for solving cold. Cases and it was as if
Speaker 3: it was like a it was like a rock band
Speaker 3: getting back. Together you. Know they kind of couldn't. Resist
Speaker 3: they kind of couldn't resist doing. It there are still
Speaker 3: there are still mysteries About epolito And Kara kappa and
Speaker 3: how many people they they might be implicated in killing
Speaker 3: in one, way Or anne And Tommy dads And Frank
Speaker 3: drew and another detective Named Phil, grimaldi where they were
Speaker 3: trying to piece these these mysteries together and figure provide
Speaker 3: a little more.
Speaker 2: Information you're right at the end that you want to
Speaker 2: give special thanks again To, Tommy dads And Frank, drew
Speaker 2: who you say pulled back the curtain on a dark
Speaker 2: world you couldn't otherwise know about and helped you understand
Speaker 2: it's strange doings at least a.
Speaker 3: LITTLE i could have written a book about this. CASE
Speaker 3: i would have written a book about this. Case it
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been this book except that these men were
Speaker 3: willing to talk about it and talk about it for
Speaker 3: The you, Know tommy had talked about this, case but
Speaker 3: really he allowed me to speak to other, people Including Frank,
Speaker 3: drew but more than a dozen others who had never
Speaker 3: talked about their roles in this. Story and When tommy
Speaker 3: vouched for, me it opened doors for. Me AND i
Speaker 3: mean it was an extraordinary experience for. Me these detectives
Speaker 3: who AN fbi, agents who had never talked about their
Speaker 3: careers at, all not even really in some cases with
Speaker 3: their wives or their. Families now they're, retired a little
Speaker 3: time has, passed as we had, said and in some
Speaker 3: cases it was really kind of. EMOTIONAL i mean it
Speaker 3: WAS i think that these are unbelievably dedicated public servants
Speaker 3: who have post traumatic stress, disorder probably many times over
Speaker 3: and talking about. IT i, mean at least one of
Speaker 3: them used the word therapy with me when they talk about.
Speaker 2: IT i want to thank you so, Much Michael canell
Speaker 2: for coming on and talking about your very your extraordinary
Speaker 2: blood and the, badge The, mafia two Killer, cops and the,
Speaker 2: scandal the shock. Donation for those that might want to
Speaker 2: find out more about this, book can you refer them
Speaker 2: to a? Website and do you do any social?
Speaker 1: Media?
Speaker 3: YEAH i have A i, mean this book is available
Speaker 3: through all the normal, channels BUT i. DO i do
Speaker 3: have a. Website It's michaelcannel dot. Com canel is spelled
Speaker 3: C a n n e L, l and there's a
Speaker 3: byelink there for this. Book i'm on all the social.
Speaker 3: Media i'm On instagram As Michael Underscore, canal that's probably
Speaker 3: the one THAT i use the. Most But i'm on
Speaker 3: x Or twitter as At Michael, Kanal so please be in.
Speaker 2: Touch thank you so much for this, Interview Michael, kanel
Speaker 2: and good.
Speaker 3: Night thank, You, dan thank you