WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Gaesy, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:32.719 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:44.439 Good Evening. For the first time in forty years, Former 8 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:48.320 New York Times editor Michael Kanal has on earthed the 9 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:52.520 full story behind two ruthless New York cops who acted 10 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:59.039 as double agents for the mafia. No episode in NYPD 11 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:04.079 history surpasses the depravities of Lewis Epildo and Stephen Kara Kappa, 12 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:10.319 two decorated detectives who covertly acted as mafia informants and 13 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:15.799 paid assassins in the Scorsese world of nineteen eighties Brooklyn. 14 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:21.599 For more than ten years, Epildo and Kara Kappa moonlighted 15 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:26.599 as the mob's early warning alert system, leaking names of mobsters, 16 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:31.599 secretly cooperating with the government and crippling investigations by sharing 17 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:38.439 details of surveillance, phone taps and impending arrests. The Lukhesi 18 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:44.040 boss called the two detectives his crystal ball. Whatever detectives knew, 19 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:50.200 the mafia soon learned most grievously. Epilito and Kara Kappa 20 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:55.120 earned bonuses by staging eight mob hits, pulling the trigger 21 00:01:55.159 --> 00:02:01.920 themselves at least once. Incredibly evidence of their wrongdoing arose 22 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:08.159 in nineteen ninety four, FBI officials failed to muster an indictment. 23 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:13.360 The allegations lay dormant for a decade and were only 24 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:17.759 revisited due to relentless follow up by Tommy Dades, a 25 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:21.759 cop determined to break the cold case before his retirement. 26 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:27.319 Epilido and Kara Kappa were finally tried and then sentenced 27 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:31.240 to life in prison in two thousand and nine, nearly 28 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:37.080 thirty years after their crimes took place. Canal's Blood and 29 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:41.800 the Badge is based on entirely new research and never 30 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:47.000 before released interviews with mobsters themselves, including Sammy the Bull 31 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:53.319 Gravano joining me to discuss his new book, Blood and 32 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:57.560 the Badge, the Mafia to killer cops, and a scandal 33 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:02.360 that shocked the nation. New York Times editor and author 34 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:07.719 Michael Canal, Welcome to the program, and thank you very 35 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.400 much for this interview. Michael Canell. 36 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:13.280 And Dan, thank you for having me. 37 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.479 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary new book, 38 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.719 Blood and the Badge, the Mafia, Two killer cops and 39 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:23.840 a scandal, the shock the nation. 40 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.080 Yeah, thank you, thank you, Dan, Thank you for thank 41 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:32.280 you for your interest in this book, a sprawling and 42 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.879 some might say complicated book about two corrupt cops who 43 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.560 were secretly on the mafia payroll. 44 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:43.719 Now you talk about that, you are not the first 45 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:48.280 to write about Louis Epolito and Steven Kara Kappa. You are, however, 46 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:52.199 the first to recount their long, entwined story in its toutality. 47 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:56.879 Much of what you've written here has gone unreported until now. 48 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:01.759 Tell us how it is that now this information is available. 49 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:06.240 Yeah. I had written a book about the Mafia in 50 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:10.319 the nineteen thirties and forties, a book called A Brotherhood Betrayed, 51 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:16.000 which was really about murder incorporated the assassination arm of 52 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:19.800 the mafia at that time. So I was reading and 53 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:23.199 reporting and researching in the mafia field, and I became 54 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:30.079 aware of the story of these two decorated detectives, high 55 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:36.240 ranking detectives in the NYPD, who were moonlighting for the mob. 56 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:40.600 I mean, it was not as you say, entirely a secret. 57 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.759 It had been written about before. Some of the investigators 58 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:47.040 had written I think written about them. I would say 59 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:50.800 maybe incomplete books. They were published before the story had 60 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:54.800 really ended, And of course the New York City newspapers 61 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:58.879 covered their story, but I really thought there was an 62 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:05.639 opportunity to tell the complete story. My publisher agreed. A 63 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.639 little bit of time has passed, and I think stories 64 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:15.720 like this are often told better in hindsight, after a 65 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:19.399 little bit of a little bit of space between the 66 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:23.160 events and the writing. Part of what made the difference 67 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:33.360 for me was that the investigators DEA FBI, NYPD were 68 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:36.720 willing to talk about it in this you know now. 69 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:38.360 I don't know that they would have talked to me 70 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.639 ten years ago or fifteen years ago, but they did 71 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.839 talk to me now, and a really good number of them, 72 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:51.079 I mean a couple dozen of the investigators opened up 73 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:54.120 to me. I think it was in part because, as 74 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.160 I say, time had passed, and just partially because they 75 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.000 trusted me for whatever reason. And there may be perhaps 76 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:03.759 at a stage in their life when they want to 77 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:09.920 they want to talk about what they've done in about 78 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:13.279 their careers in a way that they would not have earlier. 79 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:18.879 Let's get to this fascinating story, and you have in 80 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:22.800 part one you take us to October nineteen seventy nine 81 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:28.040 and a funeral for Jimmy the Clam Epilito, a captain 82 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:32.240 for twenty years who had a crew. Let's talk about 83 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:36.319 Detective Louis Epilito and his wife friend and what happens 84 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:37.199 at that funeral. 85 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.639 Yeah, I mean, part of what is I hope interesting 86 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:48.519 about this book is that its main character is the 87 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:53.519 detective Louis Epilido, who was born into a mafia family. 88 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:58.720 His father was a captain in the Gambino crime family 89 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:05.360 known as the Gangster, and his uncle was a capo, 90 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:10.639 a captain known as Jimmy the Clam. Jimmy the Clam 91 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:16.360 was shot and killed along with his son, due in 92 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:21.360 part to some mistakes that his son had made, and 93 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:27.319 so of course Louis Eppolito goes to his uncle's funeral. Now, 94 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:32.920 a New York City detective is supposed to is supposed 95 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:37.839 to keep his distance from known criminals, and I think, 96 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.800 probably for some very brief period of time, Louis Eppolito 97 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:45.879 tried to do that, but his family drew him back 98 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:51.560 in and he began to consort with the wise guys, 99 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:55.639 talk to the wise guys, do favors for the wise guys, 100 00:07:55.720 --> 00:08:00.279 and eventually much worse. The scene that you're describing where 101 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.240 Louis Epilido and his wife Fran drive in from Long 102 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:10.879 Island to attend his uncle's funeral is a opening scene 103 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:15.639 in which Epilido is seen mingling once again with his 104 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:23.279 family members and friends. And that the atmosphere there is 105 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:29.199 that the notion there is that Epilido really can't escape 106 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:34.559 his bloodlines. Like many people, his family draws him back 107 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:38.960 in and so of course for him, this is a 108 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.840 fork in the road. It's the first in a series 109 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:48.519 of many events that draw him into this collaboration with 110 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:50.039 the worst elements in the mob. 111 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.919 Now tell us how he teams up with this Stephen 112 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.799 Kara Kappa and what are they like and how to 113 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:03.519 they assend as policemen in the NYPD. 114 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.559 Right, So, just to back up a little bit, Louis 115 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:13.120 Epolita's father, Fat the gangster no surprise, was a violent 116 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:16.879 and abusive character, and Louis grew up in that atmosphere 117 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:20.720 his father. His father would hit him or beat him 118 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:26.639 for any even the smallest in fraction, and weeks after 119 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:29.879 Fat the Gangster died of a heart attack, his son 120 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:35.759 Louis joined the police academy, which was an unmistakable act 121 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.440 of rebellion against the family, and people couldn't believe that 122 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:43.000 he would do such a thing. He lied about his 123 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:47.879 family background in his application. I'm not sure that it 124 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:50.840 would have made much of a difference if he had 125 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:54.840 told the truth. This was the time when the Vietnam 126 00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:00.840 Draft was skimming away eligible young man who might might 127 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:04.919 otherwise have joined the police department. The police were desperate 128 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.480 for recruits, so I think they would have I think 129 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.039 they would have hired practically anybody. At the same time, 130 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.120 his future partner and best friend, a young man named 131 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.960 Stephen Kara Kappa, joined the police Academy about the same time. 132 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.840 He had been charged with a felony. He had been 133 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:29.559 caught stolen loading stolen goods into a rented truck as 134 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:36.200 a teenager. The charge was dismissed. He went to Vietnam 135 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:41.320 and came back. It's the same situation there was. You know, 136 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:46.240 the police might not have hired somebody with a felony 137 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.039 on their record, but they are desperate for hires. These 138 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:53.399 two were put together as detectives in a unit known 139 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:59.480 as Robbery South that means South Brooklyn and Kara Kappa 140 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:04.440 and actually went to their boss and said, I can't 141 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:07.559 work with this guy. I should explain that these two 142 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:14.360 were opposites in every imaginable way. Louis Eppolito was a big, heavy, loud, borish, 143 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:18.720 vulgar bully, and Kara Kappa was the opposite. He was 144 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:21.960 very trim, very very quiet, quiet, almost to the point 145 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:27.080 of mute, and always impeccably dressed and appropriate. They were 146 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:32.639 like Laurel and Hardy. They were opposites, but somehow so 147 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.480 some it might not have surprised the boss when Kara 148 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:40.159 Kappa came and said, I can't work with this slob, 149 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:46.360 this loudmouth slob Louis Epolito. But the boss said said, okay, 150 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:49.519 give it a month and if you still feel that 151 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:53.679 way after a month, come back to me. And he 152 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:59.360 never came back. And somehow these two forge some kind 153 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:06.320 of the relationship. And one of the mysteries of their 154 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:12.399 friendship is how they broached this subject, how they agreed 155 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:18.320 that they were going to launch this illegal career working 156 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:18.919 for the mob. 157 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:25.120 Who is their connection. And when they try to go 158 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.759 to another level of crime, they're doing crimes to supplement 159 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:35.200 their police incomes. But who is their connection to this 160 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.159 next level of criminality and what do they offer in 161 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:40.120 that new role. 162 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:46.399 It happened this way. There was at this time in 163 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:52.879 the nineteen eighties in New York an exalted drug dealer, 164 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.639 really a drug baron. I guess you could call them 165 00:12:55.679 --> 00:13:00.240 a drug magnate called Bert Caplan. Bert Kaplan was a 166 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:04.879 degenerate gambler, and he had spent his entire adult life 167 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.039 engaged in illegal activities in order to pay off his 168 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:12.080 gambling debts. He couldn't join the mafia he was not 169 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:17.960 of Italian descent. He collaborated with the mafia and in particular, 170 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.320 the Lukse crime family in many schemes, schemes of his 171 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:27.519 own design. Now, Caplan was arrested a number of times. 172 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.240 He went to jail a couple of times. In one 173 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:38.600 of his jail stints in Pennsylvania, his best friend, his 174 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:45.320 jailhouse buddy, was a man named Frankie Centaura. Frankie Centaura 175 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:51.639 happened to be the detective Louis Epolito's cousin. When they 176 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:56.320 were set to be released, Santora said to the drug dealer, 177 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:01.080 Bert Caplan, if you have any problem when we get out, 178 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:06.799 if you need any work done, my cousin Louis is 179 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:13.440 a detective. He's happy to work for you. He'll do anything, 180 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:16.840 and it's very signific It's significant that he said anything. 181 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:25.519 So Bert Caplan was not inclined to work with a detective, 182 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:30.559 was just too dicey. But not long after his release, 183 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.360 he in fact did call on Santora and Santora's cousin, 184 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:41.000 Louis Appolito, to do a little bit of work. Caplan 185 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.480 was involved in a scheme to sell stolen treasury bonds, 186 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:51.720 and in this particular case, they had either hired or 187 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:58.120 duped a diamond dealer named Israel Greenwald into selling the 188 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:07.559 stolen treasury bar in London. When Greenwald returned and got 189 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:14.600 off the plane at JFK Airport, the FBI grabbed him 190 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:23.240 in customs and interrogated him. So Bert Kaplan became aware 191 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:30.519 that his associate, Israel Greenwald might be cooperating with the FBI. 192 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.960 So what was his solution to that? His solution was 193 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:40.279 to arrange for Israel Greenwald to be killed, So he 194 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:47.120 contacted his jailhouse friend Frankie Santora, who in turn contacted 195 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:52.960 his cousin, Detective Louis Eppolito. Eppolito and his partner Stephen 196 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:58.360 Kara Kappa abducted Israel Greenwald on his way home one day. 197 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:04.399 They took him to a repair shop in garage on 198 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:10.320 Nostrin Avenue in Brooklyn, and there Israel Greenwald was shot 199 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:15.919 in a shed and buried. And that was the beginning 200 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:24.039 of Epolito and Kara Kappa's long relationship with the drug 201 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.360 dealer Bert Kaplan and by extension, with the mob. 202 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.159 Let's talk and go I guess backwards a bit to 203 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:42.039 internal affairs investigation targeting Louis Epolito. Tell us about this 204 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.120 investigation and what happens as a result. 205 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:51.759 Yeah, it's a critical part of this story. One day, 206 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:58.759 the FBI and the New Jersey State Police raided the 207 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:06.519 home in Cherry Hill, New Jersey of a Sicilian heroin 208 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:13.400 smuggler named Rosario Gambino, part of the Gambino crime family, 209 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.240 and they were astonished to find that Gambino in his 210 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:24.400 home had a copy of his own police file. He 211 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:27.200 had in his possession his own police file. Somebody had 212 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:34.880 given it to him. Tests showed that Louis Epilito's fingerprints 213 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:39.920 were on the pages in the file. So Epilito was 214 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:43.680 caught more or less red hend and they had him 215 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:49.440 dead to rights, and he was brought before Internal Affairs, 216 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:55.000 as you would expect. Then something really unexpected happened. Internal 217 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:59.680 Affairs dismissed the case. Not only did they dismiss the case, 218 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:06.240 but promoted Epildo to detective second grade and they invited 219 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:11.160 him to pick where he would work in within the 220 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.400 police department. 221 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:15.400 Incredible, and he. 222 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:19.319 Chose the six' three, precinct which is in the heart 223 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:24.440 of mafia land In South. Brookland SO i mean a 224 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.079 couple of a couple of important things. There one is 225 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.559 why did that? HAPPEN i DON'T i don't have a 226 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:35.599 definitive answer to, that but my best guess is that 227 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:43.200 at this time the police were weary of headlines about. 228 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:48.079 Corruption this came in the wake of THE nap, Commission, 229 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.599 serproco et. CETERA i Think Benjamin, ward the Police, commissioner 230 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:56.799 simply Didn't he didn't have the tolerance for another police, 231 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:00.000 scandal and so they just swept it under the run 232 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.799 and hope that it would it would go. Away but 233 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.799 this was a critical juncture because this was an opportunity 234 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:13.720 for the police to Catch Louis epoldo and they botched. 235 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:18.000 It of, course he And Stephen Kara kappa were not 236 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:20.720 only got away with, this but they were they were, 237 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:24.359 emboldened and they would go on to do much worse. 238 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:30.240 Things let's get back To Bert kaplan and the relationship 239 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:35.000 with The Kara kappa And epolito and what that involves 240 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.759 in terms of their, duties what they had offered in 241 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:45.440 terms of, information but also information about informants and just 242 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:50.839 progress on ongoing, investigations and even offered to do murders. 243 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:58.119 Themselves, Right So Bert, caplan the, intermediary had a particular 244 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:03.599 relationship with The lucas the, underboss who was a man 245 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.559 named Gas Pipe, caso was the point man for all 246 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:13.839 files and information within major, case and So Kara kappa 247 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:19.240 had his hands on EVERYTHING, fbi DE, EA, nypd and 248 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:24.279 so he plucked out the information that he thought The 249 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:30.559 luksey underboss Gas Pipe cassom might, want who was about 250 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:34.480 to be, arrested whose phones were, tapped and in particular 251 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.920 who was a, rat who was an informant who was 252 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:44.480 secretly making deals with the. Government and what's, more Gas 253 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:52.160 pipe Paid appallito And Kara kappa via kaplan a bonus 254 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:58.599 to facilitate the abduction or killing of those informants. 255 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.559 That jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these. 256 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:08.119 Messages let's talk about as you Do you're write about 257 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:13.039 G Robert, blakey a lawyer and professor on The Senate 258 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:19.079 committee On Criminal laws And procedure and an alcolyte Of Robert. 259 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.680 Kennedy let's talk About rico laws and their. 260 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:23.160 Formation. 261 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:26.519 YEAH i never thought THAT i would be interested in 262 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.079 this kind of this kind of law, discussion BUT i 263 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:31.599 have to say The rico laws were really fascinating to, 264 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:34.480 me AND i hope they will be to. OTHERS i, 265 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:36.599 mean the, old the kind of the. Old the old 266 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:43.119 punchline is is that when when Al capone was arrested and, 267 00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:48.759 indicted he was indicted for tax. Evasion and so why was? 268 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:56.319 That it's because historically the mob bosses were. Untouchable the 269 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:02.920 police and THE fbi could catch the, soldiers the mob, 270 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.640 soldiers the little guys because they were the ones who 271 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.720 pulled the. Trigger but just as soon as they were pulled, 272 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:14.079 off the streets the mob bosses would replace. Them so 273 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.720 this was the dilemma in law enforcement for, decades how 274 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:24.920 to how to get the mob bosses who are not 275 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:29.319 pulling the trigger, Themselves they're telling somebody else to pull the. 276 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:34.640 Trigger so would what would you indict them? For Ge 277 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:41.799 Robert blakey wrote what is called The Rico. Laws these 278 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:50.240 The rico law treated the criminal organization as as an 279 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:56.440 entity behind these, crimes so that anyone who engaged, in, 280 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:04.000 say a conspiracy to, murder was implicated in the, crime 281 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.359 even if they themselves did not pull the. Trigger and 282 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:14.839 this was potentially a game. Changer, Ironically blakey wrote the 283 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:19.119 laws and then nobody used them for a long. Time 284 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:21.319 they sat in the books for a, decade AND i 285 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.200 THINK i think it drove him. Crazy and so he 286 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.680 embarked on a tour of the country talking to one 287 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:36.160 prosecutor's office after, another trying to like an, evangelist trying 288 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.599 to get them to use The rico, laws and they 289 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:44.599 largely just shrugged him. OFF i think their feeling, was 290 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.759 what is, This what does this law professor have to teach? 291 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:53.400 Us crime has fought on the, streets not you, know 292 00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:58.839 not in the in the lecture, halls AND i think 293 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:01.799 some federal prosecutor thought it was Too The rico law 294 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.440 was too complicated for a jury to, understand AND i 295 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:09.960 suspect in some cases it was too complicated for the 296 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.480 prosecutors themselves to. Understand, then in the mid, Eighties Rudy, 297 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:20.160 giuliani then a federal prosecutor In New, york picked up 298 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.799 on The rico laws and used them with great success 299 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:28.160 to bust the top ranks of the crime families In New. 300 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:33.640 York and this this was really really significant in our, 301 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:41.000 story because the mafia entered into a period of disorganization and. 302 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:46.160 Disarray organized crime became. Disorganized it was a period of. 303 00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:50.960 Paranoia a lot of people were. Flipping and so For Gaspi, 304 00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:55.160 casso the underboss of The luchesi, family the two corrupt 305 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.880 detectives who were willing to help, him they were a 306 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.880 kind of a. Lifeline he called them his crystal ball 307 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:04.400 for obvious. Reasons they could predict what was going to, 308 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:07.079 happen and so in a period where he was trying to, 309 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:12.400 survive the two detectives they were part of his strategy for. 310 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:18.680 Survival you talk About Paul castelano being. Murdered and so 311 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:24.720 now there's a power. Vacuum so you introduce a, character 312 00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:29.599 a very interesting character Named Jimmy. Hidell tell us About 313 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:33.799 Jimmy hidell and his, Girlfriend annette De. 314 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:41.880 Bassi, Right Jimmy hidell was born into a mob related 315 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:47.880 family In Staten. Island, jimmy Like, kaplan could not could 316 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.559 not be inducted into the. Mafia he could not be 317 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:54.680 made a made man because he was Of irish, descent 318 00:25:54.880 --> 00:26:00.640 Not italian. Descent but he was a eager part participant 319 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:07.200 and an aspiring. MOBSTER a. Hustler jimmy happened to have 320 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:13.000 a girlfriend Named. Annette they had an on, again off again. 321 00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:20.799 Relationship jimmy was jealous to the point of. Violence when 322 00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:23.319 they broke. Up A nette would go out with other 323 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.799 men and he. Would at one point he abducted her 324 00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:31.759 and tied her up in an. Apartment when she got, 325 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:35.960 away she talked to a grand. Jury the grand jury 326 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:42.319 did not actually Charge. Jimmy but Now jimmy was afraid 327 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.160 of what A nette might, say and so he and 328 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:51.079 a friend grabbed a net on her way to work one. 329 00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:54.480 Morning they shot her and killed her in a shallow 330 00:26:54.599 --> 00:27:02.559 grave near a dilapidated motel In Staten. Island Jimmy jimmy 331 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.480 was eager to do favors for, mobsters to endear himself 332 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:13.759 to climb a rung in the, ladder and when when asked, 333 00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:20.440 to he organized an assassination of Gas Pipe, caso the. 334 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:28.319 Underboss they pulled up alongside him in a parking lot 335 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.960 of a strip mall in The Mill basin neighborhood Of. 336 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:37.799 Brooklyn they fired on. Him if you fire on Gas Pipe, 337 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.680 cassa you had better kill. Him but they boxed it 338 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:46.200 And Gaspipe casso ran into a. Restaurant he ran downstairs 339 00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:48.960 and hid in a kind of a walk in refrigerator 340 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:53.480 down in the, basement and he. Survived so now he 341 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:59.440 would spend the following year's exacting revenge on his would 342 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:06.279 be as, essence and his first task was to Hire 343 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:13.480 epilido And Kara kappa to Abduct Jimmy. Hidell they would 344 00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:18.920 gladly have Killed jimmy or Gas, pipe but Gas pipe 345 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:24.319 Wanted jimmy alive because he wanted to extract as much 346 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:29.799 information From jimmy as he could about this botched, assassination 347 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:35.359 and So epildo And Kara kappa drove out to The 348 00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:40.119 hidel family home In Staten. Island they circled the block 349 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:46.519 a couple of. Times heidel's, Mother, betty came outside and confronted. 350 00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:50.119 Them they showed their police badges and they drove. Off 351 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.440 later that, day they Found jimmy In. Brooklyn they took 352 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:01.519 him to the same garage Where Israel greenwald had been. 353 00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:05.680 Killed they didn't kill. Him they tied him up and 354 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:08.680 put him in the trunk of a car and per 355 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:15.480 gas pipes. Instructions they drove to a parking lot beside 356 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:19.599 A toys R us next to The Belt parkway In, 357 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.720 brooklyn and they gave the car With Jimmy hidel in 358 00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:29.079 the trunk To Gaspipe. Casso casso then Took jimmy to 359 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:34.000 a friend's basement and he Shot jimmy more than fifteen, 360 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:38.039 times and he, did in fact extract information from him 361 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:43.559 about who was behind this, shooting who was. Involved at one, 362 00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:45.799 Point jimmy, SAID i know you're going to kill. Me 363 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.119 my one request is that you dumped my body on 364 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:53.319 the street so that my mother can claim the insurance. 365 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:59.480 Money without the, body you can't claim. Insurance Gaspye casso 366 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:00.240 did not do. 367 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:00.799 That the. 368 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:05.920 Body the body has never been, found but that encounter 369 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.880 When epleo And Kara kappa drove out to The hydel 370 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:16.319 family house And jimmy's Mother betty confronted, them that was 371 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:19.079 later a critical moment in their. 372 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.799 Investigations Let's jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these. 373 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:30.680 Messages at the same, Time casso gets information From kaplan 374 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:35.279 Via epolito And Kara kappa about the other, assassin a 375 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.960 person Named Nicki. Guido there's a problem with, This Nicki. 376 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:43.799 Guido there's two of. Them explain this unfortunate. 377 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:50.839 Situation, YEAH i, mean AS i mentioned, Earlier Kara kappa 378 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:58.240 was skimming valuable information FROM fbi and police records in 379 00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:02.000 The Major case squad and passing and this information along 380 00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.799 to Gas pipe Via, kaplan but the information was not always. 381 00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:13.119 Right Nicki guido was a young man who had been 382 00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:18.039 involved in the botched assassination of Gas pipe in The 383 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:21.680 Strip mall parking. Lot casso was kind of going down 384 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.160 the list of people who are involved in trying to kill, 385 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:29.000 him So Kara kappa And ablita passed this information along 386 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:35.240 to Gas. Pipe Gas pipe sends his gunman to Shoot Nicki. 387 00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:40.319 Guido On Christmas, day they shoot him outside of his 388 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:45.759 family home In. Brooklyn he dies in his car just 389 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:53.480 outside the family. Home the problem was that it was 390 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:57.240 the Wrong Nicki. Guido it was a case of mistaken, 391 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:04.359 identity Same Nicki, guido but wrong. Person the Real Nicki 392 00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:09.480 guido lived in an adjacent. Neighborhood SO i, mean this 393 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.240 is a, case you, know JUST i, mean tragedy Follows 394 00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:16.440 tragedy follows this story every step of the, way but 395 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:20.160 none of those tragedies are worse than this. One the, 396 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.039 victim the innocent, victim was a young man well liked 397 00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:27.319 in the, neighborhood twenty six years, old just about to 398 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:33.559 join the fire. Department his, family can, imagine never never 399 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:38.039 really got over. It his father stopped taking his medications 400 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:41.039 and died a couple of years. Later you, know we 401 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:45.000